Dang I the ending and the chra ters I related to were pretty memorable relate hard to the creator of the video this was the first show I looked up on TH-cam for discussions
I've always said that Heroes was a victim of it's own popularity. The real decline of the show started with the decision to keep the same cast/characters despite the fact that they had just ended their stories. In fact, Heroes is a great example of what happens when company's won't let the story of a franchise end *cough Indiana Jones *cough.
I think that was the real death sentence as well. Yes the Writers Strike happened, but that was mostly on Kring, and pretty much every issue with the show would've been resolved if Heroes was an anthology from the beginning. Execution is another matter entirely, but still, I think the original, anthology vision was the way to go moving forward.
@@ViviVariety Agreed, however there was probably a way to keep going with a number of the core cast if Peter, Nathan and Slyar stayed dead (or they at least waited a few seasons before bringing him back) and Claire "disappeared" for a while too. I don't know. They wrote themselves into a hole with the end of the 1st season and the show never really recovered even if I loved almost every second of it. Hiro shouting "Flying Man" everytime he sees Nathan will never not be adorable.
From what I heard, each season was to star different cast of characters with only Mohinder and Claire being consistent characters Season 1 was Peter, Sylar and the others we have seen in that season The writer’s strike didn’t help either
I liked how he ended up as well, but having him flip flop around too much was where it got out of hand. Still, huge credit to Zachary Quinto for nailing it the whole way through.
I agree. Sylar was best when he was a near unstoppable force that our other characters have to escape from and/or contain. Good contrast too: here is Claire, Peter, Nathan, Hiro, etc. They're people like you and me, only they have superpowers now. Here is Sylar, a force of nature that cannot be stopped by any individual from the first group. Furthermore he gets more powerful as he removes other superpowered people from the equation. Part of the genius of the first season is the implied ticking clock that is created in the background.... Our point of view characters are at a ridiculous disadvantage with Sylar holding the cards. But it still feels possible for Sylar to be beaten through collaboration. The storytelling potential is amazing as, in theory, none of our faves are safe and every win by Sylar is truly impactful in a way that could send ripples throughout the rest of the series. Plus, later on, Sylar could become an existential threat to all humans. As he realised the potential of all his powers synergizing together.
@@fightthepowerman the problem with the show is that they had too many characters and they had to split the time between them to try to develop some backstory.. and they realized Peter being there killed the balance of the whole power thing in the show.. that is why there is not someone like him in DC or Marvel... well, Marvel had a guy called sync that could copy the powers of people that were near him.. and what did they do to him? they killed him off protecting his friends taking the full power of a bomb... otherwise, it would have happened something that would happen also in Heroes: Peter being so OP that everybody else would become useless and unecessary
It's unbelievable that Isaac, a character who died in SEASON ONE, had already drawn comics that foretell the events of THE REBOOT. How did the company or any other character think to go through every copy of 9th Wonders to put together what would essentially be a copy of the entire script of the show held by its own characters
I wish I had a good explanation to be honest, because the show kept bringing up how "Isaac drew this one last thing before he died, for real this time!" allll the way until Reborn, and it kept getting ridiculous. I think it's part of a much broader issue where Heroes was addicted to prescience being a main driving force, to the point where it was a massive writing crutch.
@@ViviVariety they even introduced a second future-telling painter who could have provided that element in a way that made sense, but then they chopped the poor guy's head off and went back to Isaac.
@@chinchindaisukiman Also Hiro calls him African Isaac when he first enters his tent. This just sounds like what they were calling him in the writer's room lmao.
Best line ever when bad guy says “hey Matt what am I thinking now?” with a gun to Matt’s head, and Noah says “Your last thought” and shoots bad guy. Omg I love it.
I think the original idea to do an Anthology by focusing on new characters each season would've been great. We would've been able to discover more of the Heroes world through new storylines, more abilities, and other perspectives. Not to mention the old characters could still have made appearances without being the focus, like maybe a future Hiro who helps out from the shadows for one episode, or Peter teaching someone who can't control his powers, just like he couldn't. So many missed opportunities.
You basically summed up my thoughts as well. I know people were really attached to the characters, but the freedom to write new stories and keep fan favorites "on hold" so to speak could have really added to the show overall. Especially, as you said, in terms of world and perspectives.
I forgot just how much I loved Heroes. It was such joy in the first season: and there were pearls in later seasons, but by the end of season 4, I was hoping it wouldn't be renewed. It felt like a catgartic ending, in my opinion. They called back to the start of the show then ended it with a giant question mark, and let us, the audiance, answer it.
I agree, that's one of the reasons why I'm not as harsh on Season 4's ending. It's a solid bookend to the series. ...It's more with Reborn where the cliffhanger felt really cheap...
Claire being killed off screen is infuriating. Slyer rips part of her brain out in season 3 and reveals her powers evolved to the point she can not die to anything. so how the fuck did they kill
@@ViviVariety I think Heros season 4 was good, only because of Samuel . It was not as good as season 1 of Heros , seasons 2, and 3 were bad, I also felt that it got boring :( At least season 4 isn't too bad, so I would argue that you have two seasons of heros ( 1 and 4) 1 being great and season 4 being good because of Samuel
@michaelhawkins7389 I agree. Season 4 was where they'd finally stopped hamstringing their own narrative and shiok things up by not resetting all of their main characters' growth and instead focused on introducing a separate group of super-powered adversaries. It's shocking that it took them two seasons to actually go to this type of storyline. I feel like when they ditched the anthology concept, they failed to also drop the urge to write every season like it was an origin story. Eventually, that type of Storytelling gets old and moew difficult to do well.
@@fighterck6241 Sadly, I. Didn't watch season 4. Because I hated season 3 so much. I'm like no I think at this point. The show's just bad.. Because I kind of wish I gave season 4 a chance when it came out but you know it is what it is.I was a kid.
Monica was actually a favorite of mine in season 2 because she was really diving into the potential of being a hero/vigilante. Wish they tied her and Micah into the major plot.
I also really liked Monica as well, she had a cool small story arc and had one of the raddest powers around. It was cool, but not overpowered either, and I liked how it seemed like she was going to be a street level hero. That said, she just didn't really connect to the overall story. She may have meant to play a role in the Exodus story according to Kring, but I guess we'll never know. But I still thought she was a really neat character all around.
My distant fond memories (haven't seen the show since it was airing) of post-season 1 are that arc (with the bold government guy antagonist who gave a particularly memorable performance), the reveal that the guy in the past with Hiro was alive in the present and evil -fun twist-, and I actually liked the ending where Claire outs everyone, felt like a decent place to end after the events of season 3. My distant unfond memories of post-season 1 are too many to list in a youtube comment lol.
I am heart broken this has so few views, this is a great video and I can see the work that went into it. Thank you for the video and I wish you all the success in the world!
The only thing I remember about Heroes is that it was Milo Ventimiglia’s most emo role to date. That hair in S1 totally fits the decade. Man, I miss the mid 2000’s.
One of the biggest problems with Heros was that there was no reliable moral center, most of the good guy characters from season one became bad guys in later seasons, and numerous (failed) attempts at redemption arcs to redeem irredeemable bad guys made for a confusing and rather sickening watching experience. This was the main reason I left the show partway through the Villains volume.
You know, that's a really good point I never really thought of. I think they tried to keep Hiro as the moral center, but he was so OP he always had to get sidelined. Meanwhile characters like Peter and Claire went back and forth for a bit as far as morality goes.
The first season of the show captured its essence brilliantly , it was unique , you could feel the scale of the stress , stakes and it had this feeling that I just can’t explain but I think it was just epic in every way , idk but there was something futuristic , poetic and captivatingly biblical yet fresh and new , they tried to ride off of that and became a shadow of their own vision , which isn’t shocking cuz most tv shows go through that when they have to stretch the material for money
To me it seems very obvious they only had story for the first 13 episodes. That was a thrilling and tight story. But if you go back and watch... it seems like it was supposed to end there. They had to "undo" things (such as Claire's friend having his memory wiped). Then they started giving everyone powers and making it genetic (boring) and having everyone related to each other. Around episode 16 of the first season you can see they are flailing around not really having a clue what to do with people. If NBC would let me do a new heros I could fix it. The joy of the original was just that every day people were developing powers... that was what people liked explored. And you can't have too many powers... then it just gets silly and they can't be too powerful. They need to pull the power out when necessary.
Couldn't agree more. I wanted to talk more about that, and how they kept taking out the really OP powers or limiting them because even they knew that characters like Eden and Claude were way too strong for the story at the time. With the exception of a few standout episodes later, the show lost a lot of momentum after Homecoming, and it kept dipping more. I'd love to see a version of Heroes that was a tightly written 10 to 13 episode season, and every season after that followed suite with a new ensemble.
This is why I would have liked that anthology route they would have gone. Each chapter like a new reset, maybe with some connective tissue. This would have killed if it was on streaming without network interfere.
you know what you describe reminds me of a devastating series of movie like video games "Life is Strange" highly recommended but just as a warning: ALL THE TRAUMAS! not one or two trigger warnings but most. Each game only has one power on display in the hands of a normal person (at least openly, there are theories) and so far they haven't even met, but are in very much the same world as shown by characters reappearing so obviously it's still in the realm of heroes season 1
My husband and I have been rewatching Heroes. I still love the show despite its flaws but I mourn for what it could have been. It's actually been fun pointing out the plot holes and dumb character decisions (why do they ALL stare at the eclipses, don't they know that's bad for your eyes?). I'm not sure if we'll watch Heroes Reborn, we started it during the initial run but never finished it. Not sure if it's worth watching.
I feel similarly, I think Season 1 and the second half of Season 3 are still equal parts fun and interesting, and there's always dumb stuff you can laugh at throughout. And the rest isn't unwatchable either... ... Although Reborn comes close... It's honestly not really worth watching in my opinion. It started off promising but then spirals into a lot of the dumb stuff Heroes was known for. I would have stopped watching myself if it wasn't for this video to be honest.
It educated mainstreamers in comic book style story arcs, superhero tropes, and the need for miniseries over ongoing TV series as well as the need for lower episode counts.
The plot suffered a lot in places some due to the writers strike others due to the fact that I'm not totally sure these people completely understood superhero media you got Peter's girlfriend he lost in the future then instantly forgot about you got Maya and Alejandra who were added to the show for literally no reason barely having their own story mostly being there for syler to steal their powers
My brother and I watched Heroes the night it premiered, back when we began college, Autumn 2006. Loved it. We weren't casual watchers; we were fans of the genre and full on nerds. By the time of the series finale it was my favorite show on television. The world loved Heroes. I can recall days after the finale Olivia Munn saying on Attack of the Show, the old G4 days: "Please, Tim Kring, don't mess this up!" I am harsher to the following seasons than you were in your video; I often use Heroes as a "what not to do" when teaching others in my creative writing lessons. You could sooner believe that the writers were intentionally sabotaging the show. Season Two had many issues that were obvious by episode one; after several episodes in, I remember being bored. The issues kept coming, though: characters being hideously written, backpedaling on progress (i.e. amnesia, tumors, loss of powers), terrible ideas, failing to execute ideas that had promise. I finished Season Two giving it a 5/10, and believed I was being lenient. The remaining seasons were worse. Just ghastly, ghastly writing, the equivalent of an artist sticking a paintbrush into his butt and attempting to paint something coherent via twerking. I can recall thinking that this was an overly elaborate prank on that Punk'd show: fooling all of the actors involved into thinking they were part of a hit show when in reality they were now trapped in an impossibly horrendous mess. I can only imagine the look on Adrian Pasdar's face when reading the script, seeing that Nathan would go from wanting to create an army of superpowered indivuduals to wanting to lead a government taskforce to lock up superpowered individuals in the span of two episodes. In my personal headcanon, the series ended with Season One; I find a thrill in not always having all the answers (i.e. who is Tom Bombadil in The Lord of the Rings? No one knows, and that creates intrigue), so I would be fine with the unfinished plotlines remaining that way. They defeated Sylar, the heroes sacrificed themselves to do so, and the curtain falls.
Oh trust me, I understand exactly where you're coming from. I used to be way harsher on the show, but nowadays I at least try to look at both sides to something. But yeah, I don't think there's any debate on the show's quality later on. Yes, there are some good moments (being generous with the wording here), but a LOT of trash as well.
I remember how much hope and excitement I had watching the three first episodes, I was building theories and talking to my classmates about thousands way they could take the story. … And then nothing
I feel similarly. Heroes was the first show I got invested in and the first to let me down. It was a lot of fun revisiting my first TV show that I started out loving and watched hoping that each chapter could recapture the magic. I hope you continue making videos, I think you have a good cadence to your talking, convey your thoughts clearly, and keep the interjections humor to a good level.
Even though your takes don't entirely match up with mine, I've gotta appreciate the acknowledgement that the show's decline wasn't as simple as how people present it. While the overall quality of each volume obviously varies, even at its best the show had flaws, and even amidst the tedious nonsense in the later seasons there were some good times to be had. Maybe the show would have been objectively better had it been more of an anthology series with a revolving cast as Kring intended, but personally I'm glad I watched the show we got all the way through as-is. In fact, if I ever get the equipment for it I might just make a video essay on the topic myself one day...
I appreciate that sentiment for sure. It's a bit of a misconception that the Writers Strike "ruined Heroes", but I always felt it was a case of an unfortunate coincidence, and I'm glad my research also added to that initial hypothesis. There's a lot of "what-ifs" with Heroes, and while it is fun to think about things like Exodus and a potential anthology, it doesn't help to dwell on what could have been. Heroes is what it was, the most we can hope for is a spiritual successor of sorts. Also you should totally make a video on Heroes as well! It's a fascinating topic for discussion, and it's always cool to see what other fans think of it!
Arthur Petrelli killing Adam, the show's best villain, was not only unforgivable from a writing point of view, but the fact that he would murder cowardly, bribable, indestructible Adam but attempt to manipulate volitile, vengeful Sylar, made him truly too dumb to live, not to mention he could have taken the healing factor from Peter without killing him off, since he takes Peter's powers like an episode later anyway. If it was an actor scheduling thing, just keep Adam in the box until you can write him a decent plotline and/or David Anders becomes available for more than a few episodes. So many reasons why that plot point infuriates me.
Yeah plus they never got into the past that Adam and Arthur and the old company forming properly they just skirted around it with Angela and Suresh . Really was hoping to see more of Adam and Arthur in that season but yeah man whatever.
Just wanted to say thank you for the trip down memory lane with this retrospective. It was very well put together with just the right amount of analytical insight without feeling bloated with padding. Great job! =)
First tv drama I got invested into, this was during my highschool days, very much enjoyed the show. I still think about it here and then, and I still remember "Save the Cheerleader, save the World." Regardless of how far it falloff, I still remember it fondly. This might be copium but maybe one day, we'll get a reboot of the entire thing, a re-make of the entire show.
For me personally, If Heroes were to go on for more than one season then I think they should have done more build up for the god-tier trio, Peter, Sylar and Hiro, and their powers are introduced last in the final seasons.
I think that could have really worked in the show's favor, especially if the characters start out weaker and get to their end points more gradually. For example, if Hiro could only slow down time in the beginning, he could slowly work his way to the even stronger powers. As opposed to where the OP trio basically become gods by season 1.
@@ViviVariety excatly.. sylar should remain how he was because he is the villain... hiro, like you said.. had to make an extreme effort and only slow time for a bit... maybe passing out if he were to stop it for i dont know.. 10 seconds... and getting better at it with time.. just like an RPG game.. and peter.. he should have the powers of people close to him... and 0 when nobody was present.. that would make him super OP at times and useless at other times... and maybe with time and relationship development... develop his power as in retaining the abilities he learned... first.. the flying from Nathan... healing from Claire... telepathy from Matt.. etc
I’d have to go back and double-check the dates, by my memory of watching this show was that the “Company Man” episode was the absolute high point of the series, and it occurred the same week as the low point of LOST, which is the Jack’s Tattoos episode. I remember discussing with my friends that it had flipped, and that Heroes was now the best show on TV, supplanting LOST. But also, that totally flipped back right after. Heroes went off a cliff right after that, while LOST introduced the flash-forward, which breathed new life into LOST, for at least a while until it went all the way off the rails.
The anthology series idea with occasional cameos and teamups as needed from the cast of previous seasons for plot reasons would have been the best way forward, but given how popular the cast were after series 1 I guess they felt that a whole new cast would have been a big risk...
Suddenly remembered this series was a thing. Never finished it and was wondering how it ended. Very dissapointed to learn how Reborn mistreated the characters even more. I feel like the writers strike helped out Lost. The shortened season on rewatch has a nice pace. Heroes had potential to be handled the same way. Fire Emblem reference, Persona music and great presentation. Thanks for recaping it and explaining what went wrong. Also kind of realized Robert Knepper was Giancarlo Esposito at the time where people wanted him to fill villains shoes in their shows. S tier presentation. I enjoyed it. Don't usually comment, but have to leave some kind of encouragement because the work you did here was great!
As someone that watched all of the shows, and also Heroes Reborn, I actually like Reborn more. It is a cathartic watch for me, after the despair that is Torchwood: Children Of Earth, which is what Reborn was commenting on in its main moment. Which was about grandfathers in both shows. I also love how it connects to certain moments in previous chapters, and also how Hiro seemed to be in to different stories.
I think my biggest issue with it was the constant cliffhangers. Not just the big, end-of-season cliffhangers, but every single episode ended on a cliffhanger too! I've heard that the reason for this is because the shows were written one at a time. The writers hadn't written scripts for the entire season, they wrote each episode individually, the same way comic books are released, hence why every episode ended on a cliffhanger. The writers often didn't know, or have a plan for, what would happen in the next episode until they had written it. I've seen interviews with the cast stating that no-one knew if or when their characters would die, and getting to read each script was both exciting and scary for them, exciting because they would get to find out where the story went next, but scary because they also never knew if their character would survive that episode, and they'd be out of a job. Now writing a show that way sounds interesting on paper, but the end result is that nothing ever gets resolved. Nothing ever actually.......happens. They'd start an interesting storyline, get 2 or 3 episodes into it, then they'd get bored of it, quickly and unsatisfyingly resolve it, and then start a new story. Then they'd get bored of that one and start another one. Rinse and repeat. It became infuriating to watch! I just wanted something, _ANYTHING_ to happen, but nothing ever did! I wanted to see more of the badass future Peter and Hiro who have mastered their powers. I wanted to see Peter and Sylar go at each other properly. At one point they started off an 'X-Men' style story where the villains formed a faction, and the heroes had to team up to try and stop them. I wanted to see that, but the writers got bored of that within about 2 episodes! By the end I found myself cheering on the big 'World Ending Catastrophe' to actually happen. At least that would have been cool and changed the status quo of the show.
That's something I noticed as I rewatched it as well, and even the episodes themselves were edited in a a way to constantly end on "cliffhangers". Like in the middle of the episode it would build up to a dramatic moment for like, two different storylines. It drove me nuts after a while. And the episode endings as well were just as annoying, as you mentioned. I think it's reflective of the time period, where shows really needed that viewer retention. And that's fine, it clearly worked with Heroes because a lot of fans kept getting strung along for years... But it does make for a really annoying viewing experience. Especially on a rewatch, because it just feels like the show was trying to keep us invested in a really lazy and cheap way.
It always makes me cry watching thinfs about heroes, it was such a powerful and important thing in my childhood breaks my heart that it completely lost its way
I loved season 1 so so much! For me, it always reminds me of the great shows we had in the mid 2000s, before the rise of superhero movies and remakes - such inspiration and creativity and stellar storytelling! Sadly it all went downhill for Heroes. So much potential wasted, as was so beautifully laid out in this video essay. While watching this, I also was strongly reminded of Westworld, which went a similar route. I'll never stop being sad about that show and Heroes, but I will also never stop loving their early seasons!
Very good video. I liked how you actually went into detail about the Villains, Fugitives and Redemption Volumes unlike other youtubers who talk about Heroes. I agree with you saying that fans can't blame all of the shows failure on the writer's strike it wasn't the only contributing factor. I personally liked the finale of Volume 1 and the build up towards the last episode were my favourites of season 1. The Homecoming and Six months ago episodes were great too. I view Villains as my guilty pleasure honestly, I do find enjoyment in watching it. Arthur's evilness is entertaining to watch for me but it is frustrating how much of a paper thin character he is and a bad antagonist as a result. I personally enjoyed Redemption and I loved Samuel's character. Most likely because of Robert Knepper's performance.
Great Video Sir. In my opinion 2 key ingredients made Heroes successful. 1) The mystery element. The whole mystery in S01 of who or how new york blows up and hows isaac's paintings affect the future of our characters was intriguing from the start. It was always gonna make viewers glued to their tvs. Although s3 did try to maintain some form of mystery with Arthur Petrelli/the company , it wasn't impactful like s01. 2)The second element was chemistry of our heroes working together. When you have a show with a unique set of characters, its vital that they spent time together just like how LOST did. After s1 we rarely saw that. S2 was a slow burn but it was would have been a good slow burn if we had more relationship building between clarie-nathan or even noah-mohinder-matt. With Hiro in the past, Ando had nothing to do. There should have been more friendships between hiro-claire or peter-claire or hiro-nathan or matt-noah or even mohinder-nathan. In s4, we finally got to see hero and peter and peter and claire actually talk together liek friends. But it was too late. THE SHOWS BIG BLUNDERS: 1)Tim kring wanted to kill of the main characters and introduce new characters each season. That idea was a big mistake since he failed to think that maybe us the fans would fall in love with our original characters and would hate it if they were killed off in the very first season. Its like if Lost had killed sawyer/locke/jack. 2)One of the blunders was making peter claire's uncle. In a show like this you should have a main couple. peter and claire were perfect. What was the point of making nathan claire father? they hardly developed that relationship. 3)Making sylar take claire;s power ruined the series as there was no way to kill him. Tension is gone. So neither the villain nor the hero could die. Sylar was ultra OP and should have not stayed beyond season S01. Taking away peters and hiro;s powers was also dumb.
Great video. Heroes season one will always remain one of my favourite seasons of television which I have rewatched many times. The others are sadly nowhere near as good, but I do often wonder what the show would've looked like had it gone as originally planned.
Heroes often just makes for such a fun thought experiment. "What if it followed the anthology format?", "what if Kring followed through with Exodus as the Season 3 opening?", and so on and so forth.
Heroes is still my favorite live action TV Show Arthur Petrelli Powerdraining Hiro Nakamura killed Heroes tv show for me at very least just as much as Peter's nerf for anyone else so I can make Hiro refuse to join Pinehearst company in my mega-crossover
It's funny, one of the shows that sort of sparked the modern TV's "binge worthy" ongoing story trends was 24. A show which was the same damn story for three seasons, before they managed to change it up into something interesting for a few seasons after that. Proving that you sometimes need to break the mold and move away from the same characters to make a good story.
It is criminal that this has only 930 views as of the time of this comment. I remember this was, just like you, the first show I was really invested in. Great video!
Heroes Reborn kind of shows me that the show was kinda doomed from the start and that Season 1 was a fluke. They had a chance to do something closer to the original anthology idea with more time to plan it out and they still blew it. Tim Kring just lucked out by getting some great writers in Season 1 like Bryan Fuller. It's probably not a coincidence that the show picked up a bit when Fuller briefly came back for Volume 4. The fact that S2 was already rehashing the dark future plot from S1 really illustrates how fast the show became creatively bankrupt. Dark futures are a common trope but I don't think any other piece of storytelling had a completely different dark future four stories in a row.
This is my hunch as well. As much as people often talk about how the series could have gone, in reality Reborn was everything they could have ever wanted. It was the first time they could wipe the slate clean and tell the kind of stories they wanted to in the beginning when Heroes was envisioned as an anthology....and they blew it. And I've always been curious about Fuller's involvement as well, as I know he worked on Season 1 and came back briefly during 3, which may have contributed to the higher quality around then. Unfortunately I couldn't really find any hard evidence, but if I were a betting man, I'd bet on Fuller doing a lot of work to make the show work when he was around.
It basically was, especially when you look at things like Kring scrapping Exodus, the retcons, and the wishy washy character arcs (Sylar being the best example). Like I know it's a bit of a pitfall to plan EVERYTHING out because a show needs to adapt on the fly, but Heroes did feel like the writers were just throwing stuff at the wall at a point.
Oh no you're absolutely right, like off the top of my head Breaking Bad was written basically season to season, and most sitcoms are as well. Like with most things, it depends on who's writing it, because a skilled writer/showrunner can improv really well and make it feel seamless.
I think the Legacy that Heroes the TV series has streaming services and how they put out there TV series, doing overall arcs and having very concisely written seaeon of 10 or 13 or 15 episodes, rather than 22 eisodes with filler, and then taking a year, two years, or three years and get to the next season to make sure it's well-written. One could even say that the way they do seasons now almost strike proofs them.
I think the original anthology plan for Heroes would be way better, perhaps keeping The Company as the overarching big bad. The popularity of the show probably derailed the plan. Sylar was Quinta’s breakout role; fans loved this cool villain, so of course they tried to redeem him, but that ruin his “charm” imo. Most of the issues mentioned in this video could have been avoided if they just started with a new cast/characters. Then again, Heroes Reborn showed that maybe they couldn’t even make a good show with a clean slate…
You basically summed up all my thoughts. Obviously hindsight is 20/20, but the original vision of an anthology series pretty much solved all the problems that would later plague the show. And yet, Reborn stands out in that it WAS that chance to be an anthology series, and we all know how great Reborn was.
Woof. I can't speak to Heroes Reborn since I couldn't get past the first episode, but man what a journey... Of pain, lol. Heroes is a good example of why people are too hard on L O S T. The earth-powered guy from season 4 was a villain I really liked. He was clearly a Magneto analog, and I don't know why it took the show so long to have one of those. If it wasn't for his motivation twist, I'd probably rank him as the series' second-best antagonist after Sylar. The one I liked least was Arthur Petrelli. Robert Forester was a great actor, but as the Big Bad, he just didn't do it for me. If you can't tell, I'm a villains guy. (Of all the volumes, guess which one I was looking forward to the most? haha) Yea, Season 3 was rough. It did have a guy who could create vortexes, and I thought that was pretty cool. The second-half saves it though, thanks to the Fugitives arc, which I was trying to get my friends to come back and watch, but they'd already bailed on the show by then. Anyway, this was good stuff. I liked that Dragon Ball reference, lol. Thanks
Recently watched the first season again, and I was shocked how well it held up. Sadly they just didn't have the material to sustain continued long form content. Wouldn't have been a better mini series. Quality over quantity. Don't spread yourself too thin.
Completely understandable! While I really don't like Volume 3, at least it has genuine progression over 2...and Volume 4 is straight up legitimately good most of the way through
I also remember that there was a series of comics that you could bread online that actually developed a lot for the history on many characters. Loved those too
I only recently found your channel, although your Dune was the first one I commented on this was the first one I watched. I really liked your Nolan / Batman videos too. I liked Heroes but I will be honest I had forgotten about some of the shortcomings. After watching Heroes, 'The 4400' was suggested to me and I bought the DVD set. Although quite different at times there are also similarities between the 2 series. Heroes looked like it had a bigger budget, but I only realised later that 'The 4400' came out before 'Heroes'. I was surprised at the time how few people had heard it. And yet, 'Heroes' was a phenomena of its time that everyone was talking about.
Do you think it's because Heroes had the benefit of being on NBC, therefore reaching a wider audience? I imagine that could be the reason why people heard of it before something on another network. I'm also curious about the 4400, I've seen a few other people mention it.
What annoyed me about season 2 is Peter travels back in time leaves his girlfriend in the future then he changes history essentially erasing his girlfriend. From the timestream and he never even mentioned her again
I know right? Like it's so easy to at the very least, address it later on. Especially because Season 2 makes Peter's relationship with Caitlin a huge deal. I get that Peter saves the future and all, but RIP to Caitlin I guess, either dead from Covid or erased from existence.
Honestly if you stop watching Heroes at the season 1 finale and ignore the teaser at the end, it holds up extremely well as a limited series kind of show.
I watched the first half of the first season with my college roommate and remember enjoying it. I'd heard it nosedived and that the rest of the show wasn't really worth it, but I've always been curious to see how it played out. Might give it another shot if I get bored enough haha. Great video.
Loved watching this vid, what an awesome trip down memory lane! I was a Huge fan of this show when it came out and bought all the box sets of each season. This was a really big deal show way back when. Never got to see Reborn, but I didn’t hear good things when it came out, and now I see it’s probably not worth checking out anyway. Great job man, and thanks for this!
As it aired, I stopped watching somewhere in season 3. I then tried rewatching with my sister on streaming a while back and we got up to the start of season 5, saw the carnival people were clearly being framed as the villains, and had to stop for sanity's sake (but we do agree season 4 was a good attempt to return to form). Good video, subbed 👍🏽
Great video. I watched all of Heroes and Heroes Reborn but I didn't start watching it until it was out on Netflix around 2009-2010. I also watched Heroes Reborn with such high hopes. I agree with every point you made in this video. What I always wanted to know is what happened to Peter's girlfriend in season 2? Caitlin, how could the writers or anyone not bring this up just to close that plot hole. Another thing I wonder is what happened to the person who could create black holes or a Vortex to suck people into. His name was Stephen Canfield but I felt like he had the most powerful ability if he was able to target the God-like Heroes he could take out anyone he wanted at that point.
Thanks for the compliment! And I feel the same as you in most of what you said. I tried to research if they ever addressed the Caitlin incident, but they just...didn't. I suppose they thought it never needed a resolution, but it's just so weird that they never explained what happened at all. Even a throw away line from Peter would have been something. And as for Stephen, I completely agree, and he was part of a talking point where I talked about the powers more. Something I noticed about the show is that there's a TON of really broken powers, and it's not always the overtly strong powers either. Powers like Claude's invisibility, Candace's illusion powers, or Eden's persuasion are very very strong, and in most cases, the show either... 1. Has the characters act stupid as to not take advantage of the powers or, 2. Gets rid of the busted characters somehow. Usually by killing them. In the end it ended up on the cutting room floor because it got too long winded (like now lol) but long story short, I agree completely. Characters like Stephen Canfield are insanely powerful, and whenever a character seems too strong, the show usually responds accordingly.
From my understanding, the show was supposed to be an anthology. Unfortunately the studios wanted to keep these characters as they became so popular. The 2008 writer's strike also didn't help.
You basically hit the nail on the head. I always say that Kring also deserves some blame (if not most of it), but outside factors played a massive role in shaping the show as well
1st season was epic. I remembered taking my lunch break at work to run home and put a vhs tape in my vcr to record it for me and my bf to watch later.😂😂
I know it's been said before but nerfing Peter really killed the show. Whether they had different writers than the early seasons or if they just lost their nerve, you could tell they were too afraid to have an "overpowered" protagonist. And to be fair, a lot of shows fail with an overpowered protagonist, especially when they just keep getting stronger. But plenty of shows have done it by digging deep into a psychological perspective - which the first and even second season handled well. All that said, Zachary Quinto's performance as Sylar throughout the series was one of my all-time favorites of any show. The story of a good man who is enticed with the irresistible temptation of acquiring superpowers at the terrible price of murder - who constantly is raging war inside himself between good and evil - seen as a monster because the evil side usually wins. A man who is used by people around him for their own selfish goals at critical times when he needs help and support the most. He nailed that role in a way no one else ever could have. Even at times when the writing wasn't the best, his character shined through with his brilliant acting prowess.
My issue with Peter is weird because I actually liked how he was nerfed. It made for more creative usage of powers because there was a risk to ditching one for a new power. He had to act smarter, not just overpower the enemy. That said, I definitely would have liked if they kept him OP, with the caveat of doing exactly what you said: don't focus on his powers, focus on HIM, like this thoughts, internal struggles, etc. It's totally doable as well, as I'll always point to Superman as like the textbook example. I think for the level of writing that the show had by Season 2, nerfed Peter was a good change...but if the writers had more confidence or skill, I'd definitely loved to see a full powered Peter that had something else that was compelling, like something psychological as you mentioned. For example, I think Peter growing more jaded over time, as he becomes later in the show, could be a legitimate conflict that could work whether he's nerfed or not, if that makes sense. And couldn't agree more about Sylar, I think Zachary Quinto's performance is one of the reasons people love him so much. Even when the writing wasn't great for Sylar, Zachary Quinto brought his A game.
I watched this video in one sitting. I've never even watched the show, but I read about it sometimes. And this video was informative and a great analysis on why Heroes ended up sucking. A lot of repetitiveness and lame villains, it looks like. Not to mention its other issues. I love the ending line of this video. How you hope some talented writers build off Heroes's foundation and create something even more extraordinary. That would be great.
In short Heroes had that something what made it one of the best... Yeah, I miss shows like that, because I can't really say there are any as good, or been that many good shows. This show really hit the right notes, for being cute, serious, and even scary, but not really reaching levels of being fairytale-like, even if the theme of the show, and the effects played for cutouts and sounds to highlight surprises carried that floaty magical feel. The way it kept going made it bit flat, but if I remember correctly there was writers strike, which lead to the flat continuity. I guess by the time reborn came out I gave up on watching TV so much, and I'm not sure was it even displayed here.
Truly loved the first season . There was also a Swedish/Danish copy, “De Drabbade”. The homeless man with the power of invisibility. The dominatrix prostitute with the Voice of Command (absolute command over every human. She is on the side of bad :-) And probably the most powerful ). Loved that, learn Swedish and watch.
It really was, I think that's likely the biggest reason why Heroes became what it did. The audience was so attached to the cast that it was hard to pivot away from that.
"Heroes" was different. It could've been on the level of the X-Files and other TV shows that came out on FOX, WB, and UPN back in the 90s and early 00's but the writers strike hurt the show. I think they should remake the show for Netflix and HBO and make sure it's produced by a solid team that wants the show to win.
I'm not opposed to a full remake, but I worry the brand/IP has too much baggage at this point. I think if a remake is a critical knockout it has a chance, but still, I wonder if it's just better to use an original IP that functions as a spiritual successor.
Was thinking the same thing, however Claire's character couldn't come back as her power stopped her from aging past a certain point, Peter absorbed Claire's power and syler took Claire's power. That's 3 main characters out unless they come up with a crazy plot where Hiro reversed shit lol. I'd love a reboot with the original cast however I think it's highly unlikely.
I really adored season one of the show, watched season two after the finale's end really captivated me with it's teaser. Then season 2, despite the excitement at them introducing new characters, disappointed me thoroughly. With awkward writing decisions like DL's death, or Sylar's strange jungle escape being some of the worst written scenario's I've ever seen. Though as I continued into season 3, my excitement sparked again at the teasing of a new set of actually interesting antagonists. Who yet also ended up being an issue of the show's failure to really branch out from their Season One characters. As Arthur, easily one of the scariest & most interesting villains they could've had this entire scenario. Was just awkwardly killed off without using any of the built up abilities he'd actually gained across the first half of the season. And this was all shown even more with the very much wasted fugitives part, where at that point I'd just become especially pained at Sylar. Knowing that the writers kind of seemed to treat him more-or-less as a "D'vorah" character, and that even at the end of the season there'd be no real satisfying conclusion for any of his crimes due to how stretched he'd become. Overall, even if it wasn't a full on anthology, I still think it could've benefitted from a general reset with it's later seasons. It became even more awful when you realize how alot of the old guard being stretched so thin, is what really helped lead it onto a path to becoming so dull. Just having a possibly nearly entirely new series with some cameo's here and there, would've really been so much more interesting on it's own... And likely benefitted it to the point where it could become a cultural icon.
Season 1 is definitely the best just has the overall tightest story season 2 is pretty great too a smart idea to have all of that season built upon the older legacy characters founders of the company and the whole buildup of Adam was well done though Season 3 is where things really kind of fell off The back and forth with Skyler them always revealing his true backstory and then falling back later and changing it again Robert Foster was a great as the main villain for the first half Plus it was just cool to have more villains I don't think a lot of people like the second half of season 3 I actually thought it was pretty great The human versus mental humans beat was pretty fun Even the last season of the original series had some good stuff going for it downgrading Peter's abilities to only be able to have one at a time felt like a really good compromise for storytelling and it just made Peter more compelling to me he wasn't just a overpowered plot device anymore and again I thought the villains were good Robert keeper and Ray Park were a lot of fun to watch
The biggest reason that the show Heroes fell off was the Writers' Strike. They lost all of their creative brain-trust. No show on TV was hit harder by that than Heroes.
I tried to find more evidence for this, but all the evidence points more towards Kring. The biggest tell is in the special features of Season 2, where Kring outlines his original vision for Season 2, and his hail Mary to change the ending. They already shot the original ending after all. To me, that strikes me more of Kring making an executive decision rather than the Strike affecting the entire writing team. If there's more evidence suggesting that the entire writing staff changed post season 2, then I'd be more open to your interpretation. Could always be a bit of column a and b.
@@ViviVariety I hadn’t actually researched it anytime recently since that show was so long ago. I was just going off my memory and the writers strike coincided with the downfall of the show. With 2 minutes of research I did see that they originally planned 24 episodes and shortened it down to 11 because of the writers strike. Suffice to say talking about the show and not mentioning the writers strike is missing PART of the reason. You condense any show by more than half and it becomes a colossal mess which it was.
I remember losing interest in season 2. I've always wanted to rewatch it from the beginning and complete the series but the comments are confirming why I stopped watching way back then. I may just re-watch season 1 lol.
Thank you, I needed this. I’m a fan of the superhero genre. Heroes blew me away but also noticed something lacking past season 1. Im planning on watching heroes reborn but decided to look for reviews first since I dont mind getting spoiled plotwise if it will save me time.
Obviously I'm biased, but unless you're really, REALLY curious, or a completionist, I'd definitely recommend just skipping Reborn entirely. The good stuff it has just isn't that good, and there's a loooot of dumb stuff. I honestly was content with just stopping Heroes at Season 4, and if it wasn't for this video, I'd never have even bothered with Reborn.
I was 6. 6! When this came out. And just before the explosion of social media but I still heard about this show and how big it was gunna be. Always wondered what happened to it
I didn't mind seasons 2-3. You're right, they got lesser each season, but I rather enjoyed the theme of its time travel that emerged after season 1: no matter what you do to change the future, it's going to happen.
I don't necessarily disagree, it's a common time travel theme that's always interesting to see. But at the same time, I kind of wish the show leaned less on the future and prescience overall. I really don't like how it was a focus for over half the show's volumes, and it overstayed it's welcome imo. I think I'm a little biased because everything from the Terminator films, Dune, to Steins Gate handles a similar theme of "you can't change the future" , but because they're time travel/future focused stories, there's ample time dedicated to exploring that theme, like the psychological effects and story ramifications. Whereas with Heroes, the time travel and themes associated with it never really evolved into something different or unique, if that makes sense.
You know I’ve never watched heros and watched this video to confirm if it’s worth my time and I must say I got hooked after watching the first 2 episodes
I kinda agree, I think the stretch of the last half of Season 3 to early Season 4 is some of the best in the series since Season 1. But it's as you said, by that point a lot of fans were gone, not to mention how Season 4 dips as it goes on imo.
Honestly, as much as I loved Heroes, I don't even remember anything past season 1.
Relatable
I remember Sylar turning face and heel as much as the Big Show.
All I remember post S1 is Hiro doing a Jojo reference.
Dang I the ending and the chra ters I related to were pretty memorable relate hard to the creator of the video this was the first show I looked up on TH-cam for discussions
@@goodjoejoe😂😂😂😂😂
I've always said that Heroes was a victim of it's own popularity. The real decline of the show started with the decision to keep the same cast/characters despite the fact that they had just ended their stories. In fact, Heroes is a great example of what happens when company's won't let the story of a franchise end *cough Indiana Jones *cough.
I think that was the real death sentence as well. Yes the Writers Strike happened, but that was mostly on Kring, and pretty much every issue with the show would've been resolved if Heroes was an anthology from the beginning.
Execution is another matter entirely, but still, I think the original, anthology vision was the way to go moving forward.
@@ViviVariety Agreed, however there was probably a way to keep going with a number of the core cast if Peter, Nathan and Slyar stayed dead (or they at least waited a few seasons before bringing him back) and Claire "disappeared" for a while too. I don't know. They wrote themselves into a hole with the end of the 1st season and the show never really recovered even if I loved almost every second of it. Hiro shouting "Flying Man" everytime he sees Nathan will never not be adorable.
this is why we are never going to get a good Lightning THief adaptation, because Rick Riordan believes in keeping things fresh by cycling characters.
From what I heard, each season was to star different cast of characters with only Mohinder and Claire being consistent characters
Season 1 was Peter, Sylar and the others we have seen in that season
The writer’s strike didn’t help either
but look at the franchise halloween, they tried something different and viewers hated it
I really liked the first season
I liked how he ended up as well, but having him flip flop around too much was where it got out of hand. Still, huge credit to Zachary Quinto for nailing it the whole way through.
I agree. Sometimes it's just nice to have a evilly cackling supervillain 😀
I agree. Sylar was best when he was a near unstoppable force that our other characters have to escape from and/or contain. Good contrast too: here is Claire, Peter, Nathan, Hiro, etc. They're people like you and me, only they have superpowers now. Here is Sylar, a force of nature that cannot be stopped by any individual from the first group. Furthermore he gets more powerful as he removes other superpowered people from the equation. Part of the genius of the first season is the implied ticking clock that is created in the background.... Our point of view characters are at a ridiculous disadvantage with Sylar holding the cards. But it still feels possible for Sylar to be beaten through collaboration. The storytelling potential is amazing as, in theory, none of our faves are safe and every win by Sylar is truly impactful in a way that could send ripples throughout the rest of the series. Plus, later on, Sylar could become an existential threat to all humans. As he realised the potential of all his powers synergizing together.
@@fightthepowerman the problem with the show is that they had too many characters and they had to split the time between them to try to develop some backstory..
and they realized Peter being there killed the balance of the whole power thing in the show.. that is why there is not someone like him in DC or Marvel... well, Marvel had a guy called sync that could copy the powers of people that were near him.. and what did they do to him? they killed him off protecting his friends taking the full power of a bomb... otherwise, it would have happened something that would happen also in Heroes: Peter being so OP that everybody else would become useless and unecessary
It's unbelievable that Isaac, a character who died in SEASON ONE, had already drawn comics that foretell the events of THE REBOOT. How did the company or any other character think to go through every copy of 9th Wonders to put together what would essentially be a copy of the entire script of the show held by its own characters
I wish I had a good explanation to be honest, because the show kept bringing up how "Isaac drew this one last thing before he died, for real this time!" allll the way until Reborn, and it kept getting ridiculous. I think it's part of a much broader issue where Heroes was addicted to prescience being a main driving force, to the point where it was a massive writing crutch.
@@ViviVariety they even introduced a second future-telling painter who could have provided that element in a way that made sense, but then they chopped the poor guy's head off and went back to Isaac.
@@chinchindaisukiman Also Hiro calls him African Isaac when he first enters his tent. This just sounds like what they were calling him in the writer's room lmao.
Heroes & Lost were running around the same time for a few years, I was in network television heaven during those days!
Best line ever when bad guy says “hey Matt what am I thinking now?” with a gun to Matt’s head, and Noah says “Your last thought” and shoots bad guy. Omg I love it.
I think the original idea to do an Anthology by focusing on new characters each season would've been great. We would've been able to discover more of the Heroes world through new storylines, more abilities, and other perspectives. Not to mention the old characters could still have made appearances without being the focus, like maybe a future Hiro who helps out from the shadows for one episode, or Peter teaching someone who can't control his powers, just like he couldn't. So many missed opportunities.
You basically summed up my thoughts as well. I know people were really attached to the characters, but the freedom to write new stories and keep fan favorites "on hold" so to speak could have really added to the show overall. Especially, as you said, in terms of world and perspectives.
I forgot just how much I loved Heroes. It was such joy in the first season: and there were pearls in later seasons, but by the end of season 4, I was hoping it wouldn't be renewed. It felt like a catgartic ending, in my opinion. They called back to the start of the show then ended it with a giant question mark, and let us, the audiance, answer it.
I agree, that's one of the reasons why I'm not as harsh on Season 4's ending. It's a solid bookend to the series.
...It's more with Reborn where the cliffhanger felt really cheap...
Claire being killed off screen is infuriating. Slyer rips part of her brain out in season 3 and reveals her powers evolved to the point she can not die to anything. so how the fuck did they kill
Her son took her powers in the womb. Not joking... It's so dumb...
@@ViviVariety I think Heros season 4 was good, only because of Samuel . It was not as good as season 1 of Heros , seasons 2, and 3 were bad, I also felt that it got boring :( At least season 4 isn't too bad, so I would argue that you have two seasons of heros ( 1 and 4) 1 being great and season 4 being good because of Samuel
@michaelhawkins7389 I agree. Season 4 was where they'd finally stopped hamstringing their own narrative and shiok things up by not resetting all of their main characters' growth and instead focused on introducing a separate group of super-powered adversaries.
It's shocking that it took them two seasons to actually go to this type of storyline. I feel like when they ditched the anthology concept, they failed to also drop the urge to write every season like it was an origin story. Eventually, that type of Storytelling gets old and moew difficult to do well.
@@fighterck6241 Sadly, I.
Didn't watch season 4. Because I hated season 3 so much.
I'm like no I think at this point. The show's just bad.. Because I kind of wish I gave season 4 a chance when it came out but you know it is what it is.I was a kid.
Monica was actually a favorite of mine in season 2 because she was really diving into the potential of being a hero/vigilante. Wish they tied her and Micah into the major plot.
I also really liked Monica as well, she had a cool small story arc and had one of the raddest powers around. It was cool, but not overpowered either, and I liked how it seemed like she was going to be a street level hero.
That said, she just didn't really connect to the overall story. She may have meant to play a role in the Exodus story according to Kring, but I guess we'll never know. But I still thought she was a really neat character all around.
The “Fugitives” volume had an interesting premise. The idea of people with abilities being hunted by the government had a very “Xmen” feel to it
My distant fond memories (haven't seen the show since it was airing) of post-season 1 are that arc (with the bold government guy antagonist who gave a particularly memorable performance), the reveal that the guy in the past with Hiro was alive in the present and evil -fun twist-, and I actually liked the ending where Claire outs everyone, felt like a decent place to end after the events of season 3.
My distant unfond memories of post-season 1 are too many to list in a youtube comment lol.
They did the same thing in heroes reborn which wasn’t too great
I am heart broken this has so few views, this is a great video and I can see the work that went into it. Thank you for the video and I wish you all the success in the world!
The only thing I remember about Heroes is that it was Milo Ventimiglia’s most emo role to date. That hair in S1 totally fits the decade. Man, I miss the mid 2000’s.
I missed his Season 1 hair lol I remember getting annoyed when it was cut later on!
One of the biggest problems with Heros was that there was no reliable moral center, most of the good guy characters from season one became bad guys in later seasons, and numerous (failed) attempts at redemption arcs to redeem irredeemable bad guys made for a confusing and rather sickening watching experience. This was the main reason I left the show partway through the Villains volume.
You know, that's a really good point I never really thought of. I think they tried to keep Hiro as the moral center, but he was so OP he always had to get sidelined. Meanwhile characters like Peter and Claire went back and forth for a bit as far as morality goes.
@@ViviVariety When they tried to make Linderman and Angela Petrelli victims in season 4 I was done.
They did have Hero be the moral center, But he was always presented as childish, or naive
@@joaopaulodsc93I didn't even make it to season 4.
I love love LOVED season 1. Pity.
How do you decide irredeemable?
The first season of the show captured its essence brilliantly , it was unique , you could feel the scale of the stress , stakes and it had this feeling that I just can’t explain but I think it was just epic in every way , idk but there was something futuristic , poetic and captivatingly biblical yet fresh and new , they tried to ride off of that and became a shadow of their own vision , which isn’t shocking cuz most tv shows go through that when they have to stretch the material for money
This show broke more hearts than chris Hemsworth
To me it seems very obvious they only had story for the first 13 episodes. That was a thrilling and tight story. But if you go back and watch... it seems like it was supposed to end there. They had to "undo" things (such as Claire's friend having his memory wiped). Then they started giving everyone powers and making it genetic (boring) and having everyone related to each other. Around episode 16 of the first season you can see they are flailing around not really having a clue what to do with people. If NBC would let me do a new heros I could fix it. The joy of the original was just that every day people were developing powers... that was what people liked explored. And you can't have too many powers... then it just gets silly and they can't be too powerful. They need to pull the power out when necessary.
Couldn't agree more. I wanted to talk more about that, and how they kept taking out the really OP powers or limiting them because even they knew that characters like Eden and Claude were way too strong for the story at the time. With the exception of a few standout episodes later, the show lost a lot of momentum after Homecoming, and it kept dipping more.
I'd love to see a version of Heroes that was a tightly written 10 to 13 episode season, and every season after that followed suite with a new ensemble.
This is why I would have liked that anthology route they would have gone. Each chapter like a new reset, maybe with some connective tissue. This would have killed if it was on streaming without network interfere.
you know what you describe reminds me of a devastating series of movie like video games "Life is Strange" highly recommended but just as a warning: ALL THE TRAUMAS! not one or two trigger warnings but most. Each game only has one power on display in the hands of a normal person (at least openly, there are theories) and so far they haven't even met, but are in very much the same world as shown by characters reappearing so obviously it's still in the realm of heroes season 1
Yep, they had the premise for the pitch, which was the setup part of the show, but after that, nothing.
My husband and I have been rewatching Heroes. I still love the show despite its flaws but I mourn for what it could have been. It's actually been fun pointing out the plot holes and dumb character decisions (why do they ALL stare at the eclipses, don't they know that's bad for your eyes?). I'm not sure if we'll watch Heroes Reborn, we started it during the initial run but never finished it. Not sure if it's worth watching.
I feel similarly, I think Season 1 and the second half of Season 3 are still equal parts fun and interesting, and there's always dumb stuff you can laugh at throughout. And the rest isn't unwatchable either...
... Although Reborn comes close... It's honestly not really worth watching in my opinion. It started off promising but then spirals into a lot of the dumb stuff Heroes was known for. I would have stopped watching myself if it wasn't for this video to be honest.
It educated mainstreamers in comic book style story arcs, superhero tropes, and the need for miniseries over ongoing TV series as well as the need for lower episode counts.
The plot suffered a lot in places some due to the writers strike others due to the fact that I'm not totally sure these people completely understood superhero media you got Peter's girlfriend he lost in the future then instantly forgot about you got Maya and Alejandra who were added to the show for literally no reason barely having their own story mostly being there for syler to steal their powers
My brother and I watched Heroes the night it premiered, back when we began college, Autumn 2006. Loved it. We weren't casual watchers; we were fans of the genre and full on nerds. By the time of the series finale it was my favorite show on television. The world loved Heroes. I can recall days after the finale Olivia Munn saying on Attack of the Show, the old G4 days: "Please, Tim Kring, don't mess this up!"
I am harsher to the following seasons than you were in your video; I often use Heroes as a "what not to do" when teaching others in my creative writing lessons. You could sooner believe that the writers were intentionally sabotaging the show.
Season Two had many issues that were obvious by episode one; after several episodes in, I remember being bored. The issues kept coming, though: characters being hideously written, backpedaling on progress (i.e. amnesia, tumors, loss of powers), terrible ideas, failing to execute ideas that had promise. I finished Season Two giving it a 5/10, and believed I was being lenient.
The remaining seasons were worse. Just ghastly, ghastly writing, the equivalent of an artist sticking a paintbrush into his butt and attempting to paint something coherent via twerking. I can recall thinking that this was an overly elaborate prank on that Punk'd show: fooling all of the actors involved into thinking they were part of a hit show when in reality they were now trapped in an impossibly horrendous mess. I can only imagine the look on Adrian Pasdar's face when reading the script, seeing that Nathan would go from wanting to create an army of superpowered indivuduals to wanting to lead a government taskforce to lock up superpowered individuals in the span of two episodes.
In my personal headcanon, the series ended with Season One; I find a thrill in not always having all the answers (i.e. who is Tom Bombadil in The Lord of the Rings? No one knows, and that creates intrigue), so I would be fine with the unfinished plotlines remaining that way. They defeated Sylar, the heroes sacrificed themselves to do so, and the curtain falls.
Oh trust me, I understand exactly where you're coming from. I used to be way harsher on the show, but nowadays I at least try to look at both sides to something. But yeah, I don't think there's any debate on the show's quality later on. Yes, there are some good moments (being generous with the wording here), but a LOT of trash as well.
I remember how much hope and excitement I had watching the three first episodes, I was building theories and talking to my classmates about thousands way they could take the story.
…
And then nothing
In hindsight I feel like Heroes was a mass case of everyone huffing military grade copium...at least after a point lol
I feel similarly. Heroes was the first show I got invested in and the first to let me down. It was a lot of fun revisiting my first TV show that I started out loving and watched hoping that each chapter could recapture the magic. I hope you continue making videos, I think you have a good cadence to your talking, convey your thoughts clearly, and keep the interjections humor to a good level.
I loved Heroes' first season. Sylar will always be an amazing villain. Kind of want him to side step into another universe
To this day, I think season one was a perfect season of television.
Even though your takes don't entirely match up with mine, I've gotta appreciate the acknowledgement that the show's decline wasn't as simple as how people present it. While the overall quality of each volume obviously varies, even at its best the show had flaws, and even amidst the tedious nonsense in the later seasons there were some good times to be had. Maybe the show would have been objectively better had it been more of an anthology series with a revolving cast as Kring intended, but personally I'm glad I watched the show we got all the way through as-is. In fact, if I ever get the equipment for it I might just make a video essay on the topic myself one day...
I appreciate that sentiment for sure. It's a bit of a misconception that the Writers Strike "ruined Heroes", but I always felt it was a case of an unfortunate coincidence, and I'm glad my research also added to that initial hypothesis. There's a lot of "what-ifs" with Heroes, and while it is fun to think about things like Exodus and a potential anthology, it doesn't help to dwell on what could have been. Heroes is what it was, the most we can hope for is a spiritual successor of sorts.
Also you should totally make a video on Heroes as well! It's a fascinating topic for discussion, and it's always cool to see what other fans think of it!
Arthur Petrelli killing Adam, the show's best villain, was not only unforgivable from a writing point of view, but the fact that he would murder cowardly, bribable, indestructible Adam but attempt to manipulate volitile, vengeful Sylar, made him truly too dumb to live, not to mention he could have taken the healing factor from Peter without killing him off, since he takes Peter's powers like an episode later anyway. If it was an actor scheduling thing, just keep Adam in the box until you can write him a decent plotline and/or David Anders becomes available for more than a few episodes. So many reasons why that plot point infuriates me.
Spot on. Killing Adam Monroe was such a huge mistake. I raged way back when, haha.
For real, killing Adam Monroe was such a stupid writing decision. He could have been one of the show's best villains.
Yeah plus they never got into the past that Adam and Arthur and the old company forming properly they just skirted around it with Angela and Suresh . Really was hoping to see more of Adam and Arthur in that season but yeah man whatever.
Just wanted to say thank you for the trip down memory lane with this retrospective. It was very well put together with just the right amount of analytical insight without feeling bloated with padding. Great job! =)
First tv drama I got invested into, this was during my highschool days, very much enjoyed the show. I still think about it here and then, and I still remember "Save the Cheerleader, save the World." Regardless of how far it falloff, I still remember it fondly. This might be copium but maybe one day, we'll get a reboot of the entire thing, a re-make of the entire show.
For me personally, If Heroes were to go on for more than one season then I think they should have done more build up for the god-tier trio, Peter, Sylar and Hiro, and their powers are introduced last in the final seasons.
I think that could have really worked in the show's favor, especially if the characters start out weaker and get to their end points more gradually.
For example, if Hiro could only slow down time in the beginning, he could slowly work his way to the even stronger powers. As opposed to where the OP trio basically become gods by season 1.
@@ViviVariety excatly.. sylar should remain how he was because he is the villain... hiro, like you said.. had to make an extreme effort and only slow time for a bit... maybe passing out if he were to stop it for i dont know.. 10 seconds... and getting better at it with time.. just like an RPG game..
and peter.. he should have the powers of people close to him... and 0 when nobody was present.. that would make him super OP at times and useless at other times... and maybe with time and relationship development... develop his power as in retaining the abilities he learned... first.. the flying from Nathan... healing from Claire... telepathy from Matt.. etc
I’d have to go back and double-check the dates, by my memory of watching this show was that the “Company Man” episode was the absolute high point of the series, and it occurred the same week as the low point of LOST, which is the Jack’s Tattoos episode. I remember discussing with my friends that it had flipped, and that Heroes was now the best show on TV, supplanting LOST. But also, that totally flipped back right after. Heroes went off a cliff right after that, while LOST introduced the flash-forward, which breathed new life into LOST, for at least a while until it went all the way off the rails.
This is one one of the greatest what ifs they never recovered from the writers strike
The anthology series idea with occasional cameos and teamups as needed from the cast of previous seasons for plot reasons would have been the best way forward, but given how popular the cast were after series 1 I guess they felt that a whole new cast would have been a big risk...
Suddenly remembered this series was a thing. Never finished it and was wondering how it ended. Very dissapointed to learn how Reborn mistreated the characters even more.
I feel like the writers strike helped out Lost. The shortened season on rewatch has a nice pace. Heroes had potential to be handled the same way.
Fire Emblem reference, Persona music and great presentation. Thanks for recaping it and explaining what went wrong.
Also kind of realized Robert Knepper was Giancarlo Esposito at the time where people wanted him to fill villains shoes in their shows.
S tier presentation. I enjoyed it. Don't usually comment, but have to leave some kind of encouragement because the work you did here was great!
As someone that watched all of the shows, and also Heroes Reborn, I actually like Reborn more.
It is a cathartic watch for me, after the despair that is Torchwood: Children Of Earth, which is what Reborn was commenting on in its main moment. Which was about grandfathers in both shows.
I also love how it connects to certain moments in previous chapters, and also how Hiro seemed to be in to different stories.
I think my biggest issue with it was the constant cliffhangers. Not just the big, end-of-season cliffhangers, but every single episode ended on a cliffhanger too!
I've heard that the reason for this is because the shows were written one at a time. The writers hadn't written scripts for the entire season, they wrote each episode individually, the same way comic books are released, hence why every episode ended on a cliffhanger. The writers often didn't know, or have a plan for, what would happen in the next episode until they had written it.
I've seen interviews with the cast stating that no-one knew if or when their characters would die, and getting to read each script was both exciting and scary for them, exciting because they would get to find out where the story went next, but scary because they also never knew if their character would survive that episode, and they'd be out of a job.
Now writing a show that way sounds interesting on paper, but the end result is that nothing ever gets resolved. Nothing ever actually.......happens. They'd start an interesting storyline, get 2 or 3 episodes into it, then they'd get bored of it, quickly and unsatisfyingly resolve it, and then start a new story. Then they'd get bored of that one and start another one. Rinse and repeat.
It became infuriating to watch! I just wanted something, _ANYTHING_ to happen, but nothing ever did! I wanted to see more of the badass future Peter and Hiro who have mastered their powers. I wanted to see Peter and Sylar go at each other properly. At one point they started off an 'X-Men' style story where the villains formed a faction, and the heroes had to team up to try and stop them. I wanted to see that, but the writers got bored of that within about 2 episodes!
By the end I found myself cheering on the big 'World Ending Catastrophe' to actually happen. At least that would have been cool and changed the status quo of the show.
That's something I noticed as I rewatched it as well, and even the episodes themselves were edited in a a way to constantly end on "cliffhangers". Like in the middle of the episode it would build up to a dramatic moment for like, two different storylines. It drove me nuts after a while. And the episode endings as well were just as annoying, as you mentioned.
I think it's reflective of the time period, where shows really needed that viewer retention. And that's fine, it clearly worked with Heroes because a lot of fans kept getting strung along for years... But it does make for a really annoying viewing experience. Especially on a rewatch, because it just feels like the show was trying to keep us invested in a really lazy and cheap way.
You can still find the Sylar Super Cut of this show that is literally all 4 seasons into a 1 hour movie. It's basically just the show's best hits.
It always makes me cry watching thinfs about heroes, it was such a powerful and important thing in my childhood breaks my heart that it completely lost its way
I wholeheartedly believe MCU wouldn't exist without Heroes.
This show was. Certainly something.
All I remember is my mum absolutely loved this show but whenever we’d sit down to watch it together she’d always fall asleep lol
I loved season 1 so so much! For me, it always reminds me of the great shows we had in the mid 2000s, before the rise of superhero movies and remakes - such inspiration and creativity and stellar storytelling! Sadly it all went downhill for Heroes. So much potential wasted, as was so beautifully laid out in this video essay. While watching this, I also was strongly reminded of Westworld, which went a similar route. I'll never stop being sad about that show and Heroes, but I will also never stop loving their early seasons!
Oof, Westworld is a really good (and accurate) comparison lol.
"Oh my God! They killed Nathan!"
Those bastards!
Very good video. I liked how you actually went into detail about the Villains, Fugitives and Redemption Volumes unlike other youtubers who talk about Heroes. I agree with you saying that fans can't blame all of the shows failure on the writer's strike it wasn't the only contributing factor.
I personally liked the finale of Volume 1 and the build up towards the last episode were my favourites of season 1. The Homecoming and Six months ago episodes were great too.
I view Villains as my guilty pleasure honestly, I do find enjoyment in watching it. Arthur's evilness is entertaining to watch for me but it is frustrating how much of a paper thin character he is and a bad antagonist as a result.
I personally enjoyed Redemption and I loved Samuel's character. Most likely because of Robert Knepper's performance.
Great Video Sir. In my opinion 2 key ingredients made Heroes successful.
1) The mystery element. The whole mystery in S01 of who or how new york blows up and hows isaac's paintings affect the future of our characters was intriguing from the start. It was always gonna make viewers glued to their tvs. Although s3 did try to maintain some form of mystery with Arthur Petrelli/the company , it wasn't impactful like s01.
2)The second element was chemistry of our heroes working together. When you have a show with a unique set of characters, its vital that they spent time together just like how LOST did. After s1 we rarely saw that. S2 was a slow burn but it was would have been a good slow burn if we had more relationship building between clarie-nathan or even noah-mohinder-matt. With Hiro in the past, Ando had nothing to do. There should have been more friendships between hiro-claire or peter-claire or hiro-nathan or matt-noah or even mohinder-nathan. In s4, we finally got to see hero and peter and peter and claire actually talk together liek friends. But it was too late.
THE SHOWS BIG BLUNDERS:
1)Tim kring wanted to kill of the main characters and introduce new characters each season. That idea was a big mistake since he failed to think that maybe us the fans would fall in love with our original characters and would hate it if they were killed off in the very first season. Its like if Lost had killed sawyer/locke/jack.
2)One of the blunders was making peter claire's uncle. In a show like this you should have a main couple. peter and claire were perfect. What was the point of making nathan claire father? they hardly developed that relationship.
3)Making sylar take claire;s power ruined the series as there was no way to kill him. Tension is gone. So neither the villain nor the hero could die. Sylar was ultra OP and should have not stayed beyond season S01. Taking away peters and hiro;s powers was also dumb.
Great video. Heroes season one will always remain one of my favourite seasons of television which I have rewatched many times. The others are sadly nowhere near as good, but I do often wonder what the show would've looked like had it gone as originally planned.
Heroes often just makes for such a fun thought experiment. "What if it followed the anthology format?", "what if Kring followed through with Exodus as the Season 3 opening?", and so on and so forth.
The greatest first season of any TV show.
Not gonna lie. I COMPLETELY forgot that Reborn existed. I know I watched it now that you bring it up but I can't remember a single thing
I also forgot about Reborn, both when it originally came out, and when I planned to write this video lol.
Heroes is still my favorite live action TV Show
Arthur Petrelli Powerdraining Hiro Nakamura killed Heroes tv show for me at very least just as much as Peter's nerf for anyone else so I can make Hiro refuse to join Pinehearst company in my mega-crossover
It's funny, one of the shows that sort of sparked the modern TV's "binge worthy" ongoing story trends was 24. A show which was the same damn story for three seasons, before they managed to change it up into something interesting for a few seasons after that. Proving that you sometimes need to break the mold and move away from the same characters to make a good story.
How was 24? I heard a lot of buzz when it first aired, but I never heard much about it beyond the first few seasons.
I have the complete series tuck in somewhere in my SSD. I loved it so much. The story was amazing!
It is criminal that this has only 930 views as of the time of this comment. I remember this was, just like you, the first show I was really invested in. Great video!
Heroes Reborn kind of shows me that the show was kinda doomed from the start and that Season 1 was a fluke. They had a chance to do something closer to the original anthology idea with more time to plan it out and they still blew it. Tim Kring just lucked out by getting some great writers in Season 1 like Bryan Fuller. It's probably not a coincidence that the show picked up a bit when Fuller briefly came back for Volume 4. The fact that S2 was already rehashing the dark future plot from S1 really illustrates how fast the show became creatively bankrupt. Dark futures are a common trope but I don't think any other piece of storytelling had a completely different dark future four stories in a row.
This is my hunch as well. As much as people often talk about how the series could have gone, in reality Reborn was everything they could have ever wanted. It was the first time they could wipe the slate clean and tell the kind of stories they wanted to in the beginning when Heroes was envisioned as an anthology....and they blew it.
And I've always been curious about Fuller's involvement as well, as I know he worked on Season 1 and came back briefly during 3, which may have contributed to the higher quality around then. Unfortunately I couldn't really find any hard evidence, but if I were a betting man, I'd bet on Fuller doing a lot of work to make the show work when he was around.
This series always felt like it was written on the fly
It basically was, especially when you look at things like Kring scrapping Exodus, the retcons, and the wishy washy character arcs (Sylar being the best example). Like I know it's a bit of a pitfall to plan EVERYTHING out because a show needs to adapt on the fly, but Heroes did feel like the writers were just throwing stuff at the wall at a point.
you'd be surprised just how may shows are run like this. even some really good ones
Oh no you're absolutely right, like off the top of my head Breaking Bad was written basically season to season, and most sitcoms are as well. Like with most things, it depends on who's writing it, because a skilled writer/showrunner can improv really well and make it feel seamless.
Writer's strike, baby.
I think the Legacy that Heroes the TV series has streaming services and how they put out there TV series, doing overall arcs and having very concisely written seaeon of 10 or 13 or 15 episodes, rather than 22 eisodes with filler, and then taking a year, two years, or three years and get to the next season to make sure it's well-written. One could even say that the way they do seasons now almost strike proofs them.
I think the original anthology plan for Heroes would be way better, perhaps keeping The Company as the overarching big bad. The popularity of the show probably derailed the plan. Sylar was Quinta’s breakout role; fans loved this cool villain, so of course they tried to redeem him, but that ruin his “charm” imo. Most of the issues mentioned in this video could have been avoided if they just started with a new cast/characters. Then again, Heroes Reborn showed that maybe they couldn’t even make a good show with a clean slate…
You basically summed up all my thoughts. Obviously hindsight is 20/20, but the original vision of an anthology series pretty much solved all the problems that would later plague the show.
And yet, Reborn stands out in that it WAS that chance to be an anthology series, and we all know how great Reborn was.
Woof. I can't speak to Heroes Reborn since I couldn't get past the first episode, but man what a journey... Of pain, lol. Heroes is a good example of why people are too hard on L O S T.
The earth-powered guy from season 4 was a villain I really liked. He was clearly a Magneto analog, and I don't know why it took the show so long to have one of those. If it wasn't for his motivation twist, I'd probably rank him as the series' second-best antagonist after Sylar. The one I liked least was Arthur Petrelli. Robert Forester was a great actor, but as the Big Bad, he just didn't do it for me. If you can't tell, I'm a villains guy. (Of all the volumes, guess which one I was looking forward to the most? haha) Yea, Season 3 was rough. It did have a guy who could create vortexes, and I thought that was pretty cool. The second-half saves it though, thanks to the Fugitives arc, which I was trying to get my friends to come back and watch, but they'd already bailed on the show by then.
Anyway, this was good stuff. I liked that Dragon Ball reference, lol. Thanks
I still remember falling completely inlove with Hayden from this show 😅😅 absolutely stunning
Still my favorite show, regardless of its shortcomings
Recently watched the first season again, and I was shocked how well it held up. Sadly they just didn't have the material to sustain continued long form content. Wouldn't have been a better mini series. Quality over quantity. Don't spread yourself too thin.
I'm crying I was literally going to make this exact video but ty for doing it both first and better lmao
Hey, go for it anyways! Everyone's got a unique perspective, and I'm always interested in seeing how others feel about similar topics!
Honestly, I enjoyed volumes 3 and 4 a lot more than "Generations"
Completely understandable! While I really don't like Volume 3, at least it has genuine progression over 2...and Volume 4 is straight up legitimately good most of the way through
I also remember that there was a series of comics that you could bread online that actually developed a lot for the history on many characters. Loved those too
I only recently found your channel, although your Dune was the first one I commented on this was the first one I watched. I really liked your Nolan / Batman videos too. I liked Heroes but I will be honest I had forgotten about some of the shortcomings. After watching Heroes, 'The 4400' was suggested to me and I bought the DVD set. Although quite different at times there are also similarities between the 2 series. Heroes looked like it had a bigger budget, but I only realised later that 'The 4400' came out before 'Heroes'. I was surprised at the time how few people had heard it. And yet, 'Heroes' was a phenomena of its time that everyone was talking about.
Do you think it's because Heroes had the benefit of being on NBC, therefore reaching a wider audience? I imagine that could be the reason why people heard of it before something on another network.
I'm also curious about the 4400, I've seen a few other people mention it.
What annoyed me about season 2 is Peter travels back in time leaves his girlfriend in the future then he changes history essentially erasing his girlfriend. From the timestream and he never even mentioned her again
I know right? Like it's so easy to at the very least, address it later on. Especially because Season 2 makes Peter's relationship with Caitlin a huge deal. I get that Peter saves the future and all, but RIP to Caitlin I guess, either dead from Covid or erased from existence.
@@ViviVariety I think I read from an interview with one of the creators that she was erased.
The first season is a classic and the only one i still have
Honestly if you stop watching Heroes at the season 1 finale and ignore the teaser at the end, it holds up extremely well as a limited series kind of show.
I watched the first half of the first season with my college roommate and remember enjoying it. I'd heard it nosedived and that the rest of the show wasn't really worth it, but I've always been curious to see how it played out. Might give it another shot if I get bored enough haha. Great video.
Loved watching this vid, what an awesome trip down memory lane! I was a Huge fan of this show when it came out and bought all the box sets of each season. This was a really big deal show way back when. Never got to see Reborn, but I didn’t hear good things when it came out, and now I see it’s probably not worth checking out anyway. Great job man, and thanks for this!
Im just here to praise you for including a Melty Blood OST in the video. I was legit shocked when I heard it lmao
I'll always look for an excuse to rep Type-Moon whenever possible :)
@@ViviVariety based
As it aired, I stopped watching somewhere in season 3. I then tried rewatching with my sister on streaming a while back and we got up to the start of season 5, saw the carnival people were clearly being framed as the villains, and had to stop for sanity's sake (but we do agree season 4 was a good attempt to return to form). Good video, subbed 👍🏽
I miss the Heroes. Was a great show❤
Great video. I watched all of Heroes and Heroes Reborn but I didn't start watching it until it was out on Netflix around 2009-2010. I also watched Heroes Reborn with such high hopes. I agree with every point you made in this video. What I always wanted to know is what happened to Peter's girlfriend in season 2? Caitlin, how could the writers or anyone not bring this up just to close that plot hole. Another thing I wonder is what happened to the person who could create black holes or a Vortex to suck people into. His name was Stephen Canfield but I felt like he had the most powerful ability if he was able to target the God-like Heroes he could take out anyone he wanted at that point.
Thanks for the compliment! And I feel the same as you in most of what you said.
I tried to research if they ever addressed the Caitlin incident, but they just...didn't. I suppose they thought it never needed a resolution, but it's just so weird that they never explained what happened at all. Even a throw away line from Peter would have been something.
And as for Stephen, I completely agree, and he was part of a talking point where I talked about the powers more. Something I noticed about the show is that there's a TON of really broken powers, and it's not always the overtly strong powers either. Powers like Claude's invisibility, Candace's illusion powers, or Eden's persuasion are very very strong, and in most cases, the show either...
1. Has the characters act stupid as to not take advantage of the powers or,
2. Gets rid of the busted characters somehow. Usually by killing them.
In the end it ended up on the cutting room floor because it got too long winded (like now lol) but long story short, I agree completely. Characters like Stephen Canfield are insanely powerful, and whenever a character seems too strong, the show usually responds accordingly.
From my understanding, the show was supposed to be an anthology. Unfortunately the studios wanted to keep these characters as they became so popular. The 2008 writer's strike also didn't help.
You basically hit the nail on the head. I always say that Kring also deserves some blame (if not most of it), but outside factors played a massive role in shaping the show as well
Heroes is one of those shows that really makes me wish I could be an adult in the era I grew up in.
Me too, I was in high school when it was airing, and I just got into it as Season 4 was airing. But I definitely heard a lot about it!
1st season was epic. I remembered taking my lunch break at work to run home and put a vhs tape in my vcr to record it for me and my bf to watch later.😂😂
Season 1 helped me get my wife interested in superheroes. Season 2 almost took that interest away if it wasn't for the MCU.
I remember this I wish they would have done more it was so good!
Well, never say never...
I know it's been said before but nerfing Peter really killed the show. Whether they had different writers than the early seasons or if they just lost their nerve, you could tell they were too afraid to have an "overpowered" protagonist. And to be fair, a lot of shows fail with an overpowered protagonist, especially when they just keep getting stronger. But plenty of shows have done it by digging deep into a psychological perspective - which the first and even second season handled well.
All that said, Zachary Quinto's performance as Sylar throughout the series was one of my all-time favorites of any show. The story of a good man who is enticed with the irresistible temptation of acquiring superpowers at the terrible price of murder - who constantly is raging war inside himself between good and evil - seen as a monster because the evil side usually wins. A man who is used by people around him for their own selfish goals at critical times when he needs help and support the most. He nailed that role in a way no one else ever could have. Even at times when the writing wasn't the best, his character shined through with his brilliant acting prowess.
My issue with Peter is weird because I actually liked how he was nerfed. It made for more creative usage of powers because there was a risk to ditching one for a new power. He had to act smarter, not just overpower the enemy.
That said, I definitely would have liked if they kept him OP, with the caveat of doing exactly what you said: don't focus on his powers, focus on HIM, like this thoughts, internal struggles, etc. It's totally doable as well, as I'll always point to Superman as like the textbook example.
I think for the level of writing that the show had by Season 2, nerfed Peter was a good change...but if the writers had more confidence or skill, I'd definitely loved to see a full powered Peter that had something else that was compelling, like something psychological as you mentioned. For example, I think Peter growing more jaded over time, as he becomes later in the show, could be a legitimate conflict that could work whether he's nerfed or not, if that makes sense.
And couldn't agree more about Sylar, I think Zachary Quinto's performance is one of the reasons people love him so much. Even when the writing wasn't great for Sylar, Zachary Quinto brought his A game.
the beggining of the the "We're sorry we are super heores" arc of superheroes, which only the Dark Knight did well.
This was fun. Thank you.
Save the cheerleader save the world.
Definitely gonna rewatch
Go for it! Despite my critical tone I didn't hate all of it. I'd absolutely recommend Seasons 1 to 3 to most people.
I watched this video in one sitting. I've never even watched the show, but I read about it sometimes. And this video was informative and a great analysis on why Heroes ended up sucking. A lot of repetitiveness and lame villains, it looks like. Not to mention its other issues.
I love the ending line of this video. How you hope some talented writers build off Heroes's foundation and create something even more extraordinary. That would be great.
In short Heroes had that something what made it one of the best...
Yeah, I miss shows like that, because I can't really say there are any as good, or been that many good shows.
This show really hit the right notes, for being cute, serious, and even scary, but not really reaching levels of being fairytale-like, even if the theme of the show, and the effects played for cutouts and sounds to highlight surprises carried that floaty magical feel.
The way it kept going made it bit flat, but if I remember correctly there was writers strike, which lead to the flat continuity.
I guess by the time reborn came out I gave up on watching TV so much, and I'm not sure was it even displayed here.
Truly loved the first season . There was also a Swedish/Danish copy, “De Drabbade”. The homeless man with the power of invisibility. The dominatrix prostitute with the Voice of Command (absolute command over every human. She is on the side of bad :-) And probably the most powerful ). Loved that, learn Swedish and watch.
Man i kind of forgot about HEROES but I definitely remember liking it when I watched it as a teenager. I dont remember these later season though
cast selection was perfect ngl
It really was, I think that's likely the biggest reason why Heroes became what it did. The audience was so attached to the cast that it was hard to pivot away from that.
"Heroes" was different. It could've been on the level of the X-Files and other TV shows that came out on FOX, WB, and UPN back in the 90s and early 00's but the writers strike hurt the show. I think they should remake the show for Netflix and HBO and make sure it's produced by a solid team that wants the show to win.
I'm not opposed to a full remake, but I worry the brand/IP has too much baggage at this point. I think if a remake is a critical knockout it has a chance, but still, I wonder if it's just better to use an original IP that functions as a spiritual successor.
Heroes could definitely come back, especially with how much the public loves the genre now
It's certainly possible, although I wonder if the brand has too much baggage at this point. We could very well end up with a Reborn 2.0 situation.
Was thinking the same thing, however Claire's character couldn't come back as her power stopped her from aging past a certain point, Peter absorbed Claire's power and syler took Claire's power.
That's 3 main characters out unless they come up with a crazy plot where Hiro reversed shit lol.
I'd love a reboot with the original cast however I think it's highly unlikely.
@@ciarajones4970Claire was revealed to have died in childbirth in Heroes Reborn.
I really adored season one of the show, watched season two after the finale's end really captivated me with it's teaser. Then season 2, despite the excitement at them introducing new characters, disappointed me thoroughly. With awkward writing decisions like DL's death, or Sylar's strange jungle escape being some of the worst written scenario's I've ever seen. Though as I continued into season 3, my excitement sparked again at the teasing of a new set of actually interesting antagonists. Who yet also ended up being an issue of the show's failure to really branch out from their Season One characters. As Arthur, easily one of the scariest & most interesting villains they could've had this entire scenario. Was just awkwardly killed off without using any of the built up abilities he'd actually gained across the first half of the season. And this was all shown even more with the very much wasted fugitives part, where at that point I'd just become especially pained at Sylar. Knowing that the writers kind of seemed to treat him more-or-less as a "D'vorah" character, and that even at the end of the season there'd be no real satisfying conclusion for any of his crimes due to how stretched he'd become.
Overall, even if it wasn't a full on anthology, I still think it could've benefitted from a general reset with it's later seasons. It became even more awful when you realize how alot of the old guard being stretched so thin, is what really helped lead it onto a path to becoming so dull. Just having a possibly nearly entirely new series with some cameo's here and there, would've really been so much more interesting on it's own... And likely benefitted it to the point where it could become a cultural icon.
Season 1 is definitely the best just has the overall tightest story season 2 is pretty great too a smart idea to have all of that season built upon the older legacy characters founders of the company and the whole buildup of Adam was well done though
Season 3 is where things really kind of fell off The back and forth with Skyler them always revealing his true backstory and then falling back later and changing it again Robert Foster was a great as the main villain for the first half Plus it was just cool to have more villains I don't think a lot of people like the second half of season 3 I actually thought it was pretty great The human versus mental humans beat was pretty fun Even the last season of the original series had some good stuff going for it downgrading Peter's abilities to only be able to have one at a time felt like a really good compromise for storytelling and it just made Peter more compelling to me he wasn't just a overpowered plot device anymore and again I thought the villains were good Robert keeper and Ray Park were a lot of fun to watch
The biggest reason that the show Heroes fell off was the Writers' Strike. They lost all of their creative brain-trust. No show on TV was hit harder by that than Heroes.
I tried to find more evidence for this, but all the evidence points more towards Kring. The biggest tell is in the special features of Season 2, where Kring outlines his original vision for Season 2, and his hail Mary to change the ending. They already shot the original ending after all. To me, that strikes me more of Kring making an executive decision rather than the Strike affecting the entire writing team.
If there's more evidence suggesting that the entire writing staff changed post season 2, then I'd be more open to your interpretation. Could always be a bit of column a and b.
@@ViviVariety I hadn’t actually researched it anytime recently since that show was so long ago. I was just going off my memory and the writers strike coincided with the downfall of the show.
With 2 minutes of research I did see that they originally planned 24 episodes and shortened it down to 11 because of the writers strike.
Suffice to say talking about the show and not mentioning the writers strike is missing PART of the reason. You condense any show by more than half and it becomes a colossal mess which it was.
I remember losing interest in season 2. I've always wanted to rewatch it from the beginning and complete the series but the comments are confirming why I stopped watching way back then. I may just re-watch season 1 lol.
Season 1 holds up really well, if you just pretend the show ends there, you’ll have a much better experience lol
Love Heroes Season 1. Season 2 was still decent for me. I think Season 3 is when it goes down. Watched half of it and stopped after.
Thank you, I needed this. I’m a fan of the superhero genre. Heroes blew me away but also noticed something lacking past season 1. Im planning on watching heroes reborn but decided to look for reviews first since I dont mind getting spoiled plotwise if it will save me time.
Obviously I'm biased, but unless you're really, REALLY curious, or a completionist, I'd definitely recommend just skipping Reborn entirely. The good stuff it has just isn't that good, and there's a loooot of dumb stuff. I honestly was content with just stopping Heroes at Season 4, and if it wasn't for this video, I'd never have even bothered with Reborn.
I was 6. 6! When this came out. And just before the explosion of social media but I still heard about this show and how big it was gunna be. Always wondered what happened to it
I didn't mind seasons 2-3. You're right, they got lesser each season, but I rather enjoyed the theme of its time travel that emerged after season 1: no matter what you do to change the future, it's going to happen.
I don't necessarily disagree, it's a common time travel theme that's always interesting to see. But at the same time, I kind of wish the show leaned less on the future and prescience overall. I really don't like how it was a focus for over half the show's volumes, and it overstayed it's welcome imo.
I think I'm a little biased because everything from the Terminator films, Dune, to Steins Gate handles a similar theme of "you can't change the future" , but because they're time travel/future focused stories, there's ample time dedicated to exploring that theme, like the psychological effects and story ramifications. Whereas with Heroes, the time travel and themes associated with it never really evolved into something different or unique, if that makes sense.
You know I’ve never watched heros and watched this video to confirm if it’s worth my time and I must say I got hooked after watching the first 2 episodes
Mate, the first few episodes are so good! Whenever I rewatch them, I completely understand why it was such a sensation.
Super great breakdown overall thanks for this. Show meant alot to me growong up despite its flaws and poor conclusion
26:01
Ngl I thought you were going to have the clip of Peter being chucked out the window lol
Shit that would've been good lmao
Sad thing is season 4 was probably the best writing they'd had since season 1 but by that time pretty much everyone had already checked out
I kinda agree, I think the stretch of the last half of Season 3 to early Season 4 is some of the best in the series since Season 1. But it's as you said, by that point a lot of fans were gone, not to mention how Season 4 dips as it goes on imo.
Great video. Phenomenal, detailed breakdown!