Appreciate it, took a lot of work (and had to re-record pretty much all of it!) but figured it a nice blend of just rule stuff and suggestions. Was happy with the result.
We tend to evaluate specimen cards like cards in the Imperium row but there is a significant difference in acquiring them. Acquiring Imperium cards is relatively free of opportunity cost as the Persuasion fades away; Specimen cards on the other hand eat into a storable resource that also convert into VPs through beetle bumps. Picking up Specimen cards is really iffy because of this, in my opinion. Some leaders have decent support (The Ecazi, Paul and other deck-oriented leaders) and can defend picking up a graft card or two. Others, not so much.
Was that tidbit about Long Reach at 27:50 ever confirmed to be true? Sounds amazing and makes sense in theory not having to satisfy the requirements but wanted to confirm as it seems like a huge swing in power for that card
Far as I am aware, that is the case. The card's effects are two separate lines and as such are not reliant on each other. I believe they should be personally but doesn't seem the case.
Foldspace’s agent action is written across two separate lines!right? I’m pretty certain that if you draw a card you must then trash foldspace. Does the same rule/logic not apply in to Long Reach?
Thank you for the video, I have a question though regarding the 4th player compensation section. While yes you need to go to the faction for those first two bumps typically, in the end the Experimentation card is a Yellow space that ends up taking you to the Interstellar Shipping track you spent those turns unlocking. So I suppose other maybe being delayed for the very first one or two cards, you will eventually be able to ship AND research so is it still really that big of a tradeoff? Especially since Shipping is such a consistent benefit and the BT cards (of which you only see two at a time) can be stinkers early. Revealing the Experiment cards also give you specimens as well so you may not even really be all that behind depending on if you have them in the reveal when you go to Foldspace. I would be interested to hear your thoughts about that. Thank you
In the midgame there can be some catchup but by then, people also have gotten a bigger deck and so might not be using Exp for the shipping, they might have to use other cards to do it. Defo some variance. I suppose if one is wanting to push specimen generation early then just card draw itself is just as if not more valuable...
My immediate thought when I saw immortality was this too; that if you didn't have 2 influence with spacing guild you would lose out more now, since you had fewer yellow spaces to go for research. But will def have to play more to see how much the early game matters!
Immortality it don't really feel it as much, there's less penalty I reckon than say in Ix. Still a shame to me that 80-85% of all choosable infiltration has gotta be used at Interstellar but oh well.
One thing I was hoping to see discussed was the (in my games at least) inflation of influence in the game. That in IX, being 5 bumps -could- be enough to secure the alliance, maybe even just resting at 4 bumps for a lesser competed track. But in Immortality, the alliance tokens are guarenteed to be racing ALL the way to the top at 6 bumps. A consequence I think of the increased number of ways to get 2 bumps at once (beguiling pheromones) or even -triple- bumps using Ghola. (Ghola-For Humanity could be a triple BG bump)
RE: Tleilaxu Surgeon. Doesn’t the agent box mean you put two specimens in the tank and get two bumps on the tleilax track? I’m confused why you’re reading it as you must spend two specimens for the bumps. Wouldn’t it say “Lose two specimen” instead? What I mean is you don’t need to fund the card, the card funds itself.
That’s fair, but I guess I’m reading it as you “pay” by putting two troops INTO the tanks, not taking them out. After all the specimen cube icon means just that, troops into tanks. It’s only a cost on Tleilax Row cards. Other wise the agent box would be worded like the reveal box is, “lose two…”.
@@CoreyHackathorn It does admittedly look a bit weird and wouldn't be surprised for it to be on the FAQ but it's the way. It'd be pretty busted if you just play it and get to put in two specimen tokens AND get two beetle bumps.
So true on the deck discipline/bloating. First game of Immortality I got drawn into all the sweet combos that were possible, but they just don't come up if you have an almost 20 card deck. I feel in general the graft cards can be a bit of a trap as the cost of playing 2 cards at once is huge is neither is drawing you a new one. In the example of the Corrino Genes you said it's nice to graft it to get the beetle, but is that really a good deal? You are basicly discarding a card for a beetle as if it were it's reveal symbol. Would you can a card with just a beetle on reveal? If somebody blow up the row with atomics and no new high profile card is flipped you can still use own atomics to find one. The chance of top 10 cards all being duds seems fairly small.
That was slightly the point with Corrino, on the face of it it doesn't seem that terrible but when you take other factors in, it becomes far less desirable and contributes to other problems i.e. deck bloating. Grafting has to be done with a bit of care as it will prevent and SMF but the power of the compression can be so huge.
It would be interesting if other players could use their atomic token to defend one specific card that they would like to save after other player used atomics once per game. In addition it would not guarantee that player who saved the card will get it first.
Can't lose in Immortality if you're still waiting for a copy from direwolf lol. International shipping with them is painfully slow but I need that promo.
I thought about this and did consider it but personally if atomics is meant to give some kind of counterplay aspect, I think wanting the play to have to reveal as well means that would just never happen outside of just being out of agents.
@@BlackShadow993 I can see a scenario where there is a strong low cost card worth early revealing for (e.g. In the shadows, guild bankers, web of power) and a 8 cost in the row. Someone can early reveal, buy the card they want then nuke the row as a denial. However, Atomic hurts helena the most. where do we see helena picked most frequently? 4th position, which has the lowest Win rate as we've seen. If Atomics was reveal only it would force someone who wants to deny (lets say first round before helena gets to ring) to have to reveal early, thus costing an agent action. As it stands right now if there is a really strong card in the row at the start of the game with helena in 4th position, someone can just nuke it to deny and it feels bad to be in that spot as helena.
@@JoshTheWag Taking out the row to stop one person is not sustainable, yeah, they can do that but they can only do it once a game, is not always actually helping their own game and they could end up revealing something even better for her. People are not going to be that willing to do that often enough to matter in my opinion.
@@BlackShadow993 Yes thats exactly my point. People are less willing to sacrifice the agent action just to deny, but there still might be some scenarios where it happens.
As far as I'm aware, the BG bond only affects the symbols, the influence bumps can be obtained by grafting. I think the bumps should also come under the bond but as it stands, they don't.
Usually if they are corelated there will be an "-AND-" between the two sentences. Instead they have a full stop between the two sentences, so the bene in play effect should only affect the agent icon.
my way of using atomics is to either not use it at all, or only be able to use it on your own turn. whatever vocal minority complained about row staleness can enjoy the additional randomness it adds!
If you need someone to make a guide on losing in immortality let me know. Im very good at it.
Hey, me too! (At least the last two days have been awful) :)
Yes, me as well. The only two games I won, was when I completely ignored the track and the T cards.
@@dirkackermann6787 Dune is good because you can get away with not having to do everything and research can be one of those.
Fantastic content as always! Very helpful to catch me up on some of the immortality meta
Thanks Orski!
I don't think I could have done much more on the card dive than you did so a cheap plug seemed the easiest and laziest route.
@@hidden-assets Where did you get the TTS mod for immortality from? cant find it on steam workshop
This is by far the best guide I could find for playing with immortality. Thanks man!
Appreciate it, took a lot of work (and had to re-record pretty much all of it!) but figured it a nice blend of just rule stuff and suggestions. Was happy with the result.
We tend to evaluate specimen cards like cards in the Imperium row but there is a significant difference in acquiring them. Acquiring Imperium cards is relatively free of opportunity cost as the Persuasion fades away; Specimen cards on the other hand eat into a storable resource that also convert into VPs through beetle bumps.
Picking up Specimen cards is really iffy because of this, in my opinion. Some leaders have decent support (The Ecazi, Paul and other deck-oriented leaders) and can defend picking up a graft card or two. Others, not so much.
Was that tidbit about Long Reach at 27:50 ever confirmed to be true? Sounds amazing and makes sense in theory not having to satisfy the requirements but wanted to confirm as it seems like a huge swing in power for that card
Far as I am aware, that is the case. The card's effects are two separate lines and as such are not reliant on each other. I believe they should be personally but doesn't seem the case.
Foldspace’s agent action is written across two separate lines!right? I’m pretty certain that if you draw a card you must then trash foldspace. Does the same rule/logic not apply in to Long Reach?
Thank you for the video,
I have a question though regarding the 4th player compensation section. While yes you need to go to the faction for those first two bumps typically, in the end the Experimentation card is a Yellow space that ends up taking you to the Interstellar Shipping track you spent those turns unlocking. So I suppose other maybe being delayed for the very first one or two cards, you will eventually be able to ship AND research so is it still really that big of a tradeoff? Especially since Shipping is such a consistent benefit and the BT cards (of which you only see two at a time) can be stinkers early. Revealing the Experiment cards also give you specimens as well so you may not even really be all that behind depending on if you have them in the reveal when you go to Foldspace. I would be interested to hear your thoughts about that. Thank you
In the midgame there can be some catchup but by then, people also have gotten a bigger deck and so might not be using Exp for the shipping, they might have to use other cards to do it. Defo some variance. I suppose if one is wanting to push specimen generation early then just card draw itself is just as if not more valuable...
My immediate thought when I saw immortality was this too; that if you didn't have 2 influence with spacing guild you would lose out more now, since you had fewer yellow spaces to go for research. But will def have to play more to see how much the early game matters!
I totally agree that going to the shipping track can get boring. I also find myself avoiding it altogether just to change things up.
Immortality it don't really feel it as much, there's less penalty I reckon than say in Ix. Still a shame to me that 80-85% of all choosable infiltration has gotta be used at Interstellar but oh well.
One thing I was hoping to see discussed was the (in my games at least) inflation of influence in the game. That in IX, being 5 bumps -could- be enough to secure the alliance, maybe even just resting at 4 bumps for a lesser competed track. But in Immortality, the alliance tokens are guarenteed to be racing ALL the way to the top at 6 bumps. A consequence I think of the increased number of ways to get 2 bumps at once (beguiling pheromones) or even -triple- bumps using Ghola. (Ghola-For Humanity could be a triple BG bump)
This is a good point, there's defo more alliances being capped out in Immortality, grafting being a healthy reason for that.
Did you make a guide similar to this for Imperium? Searched for it but no luck
We haven't, Orski has one on his channel.
RE: Tleilaxu Surgeon. Doesn’t the agent box mean you put two specimens in the tank and get two bumps on the tleilax track? I’m confused why you’re reading it as you must spend two specimens for the bumps. Wouldn’t it say “Lose two specimen” instead? What I mean is you don’t need to fund the card, the card funds itself.
No the arrow always means "pay this" to "get that"
This is not new, as it's explained in the base game's rulebook.
That’s fair, but I guess I’m reading it as you “pay” by putting two troops INTO the tanks, not taking them out. After all the specimen cube icon means just that, troops into tanks. It’s only a cost on Tleilax Row cards. Other wise the agent box would be worded like the reveal box is, “lose two…”.
@@CoreyHackathorn the confusion stems from using troop tokens as specimens, I understand. It would be cleaner of they had done that.
@@CoreyHackathorn It does admittedly look a bit weird and wouldn't be surprised for it to be on the FAQ but it's the way. It'd be pretty busted if you just play it and get to put in two specimen tokens AND get two beetle bumps.
So true on the deck discipline/bloating. First game of Immortality I got drawn into all the sweet combos that were possible, but they just don't come up if you have an almost 20 card deck.
I feel in general the graft cards can be a bit of a trap as the cost of playing 2 cards at once is huge is neither is drawing you a new one.
In the example of the Corrino Genes you said it's nice to graft it to get the beetle, but is that really a good deal? You are basicly discarding a card for a beetle as if it were it's reveal symbol.
Would you can a card with just a beetle on reveal?
If somebody blow up the row with atomics and no new high profile card is flipped you can still use own atomics to find one. The chance of top 10 cards all being duds seems fairly small.
That was slightly the point with Corrino, on the face of it it doesn't seem that terrible but when you take other factors in, it becomes far less desirable and contributes to other problems i.e. deck bloating.
Grafting has to be done with a bit of care as it will prevent and SMF but the power of the compression can be so huge.
It would be interesting if other players could use their atomic token to defend one specific card that they would like to save after other player used atomics once per game. In addition it would not guarantee that player who saved the card will get it first.
While I like the idea, Helena wouldn't be too much of a fan of that I reckon...
I love this idea!
Could you share a link for that TTS mod? :D
There isn't one just yet for this board, this is a closed beta that will hopefully be out the next couple weeks...
That's fair. Thanks anyway :D
Can't lose in Immortality if you're still waiting for a copy from direwolf lol. International shipping with them is painfully slow but I need that promo.
A lot of things are still finding issues with the chain. I don't think it's totally down to DW but hopefully soon!
Atomics should only be able to be used during reveal
I thought about this and did consider it but personally if atomics is meant to give some kind of counterplay aspect, I think wanting the play to have to reveal as well means that would just never happen outside of just being out of agents.
@@BlackShadow993 I can see a scenario where there is a strong low cost card worth early revealing for (e.g. In the shadows, guild bankers, web of power) and a 8 cost in the row. Someone can early reveal, buy the card they want then nuke the row as a denial. However, Atomic hurts helena the most. where do we see helena picked most frequently? 4th position, which has the lowest Win rate as we've seen. If Atomics was reveal only it would force someone who wants to deny (lets say first round before helena gets to ring) to have to reveal early, thus costing an agent action. As it stands right now if there is a really strong card in the row at the start of the game with helena in 4th position, someone can just nuke it to deny and it feels bad to be in that spot as helena.
@@JoshTheWag Taking out the row to stop one person is not sustainable, yeah, they can do that but they can only do it once a game, is not always actually helping their own game and they could end up revealing something even better for her. People are not going to be that willing to do that often enough to matter in my opinion.
@@BlackShadow993 Yes thats exactly my point. People are less willing to sacrifice the agent action just to deny, but there still might be some scenarios where it happens.
How many games are won without picking up the swordsman in Dune Imperium: Immortality? Is it a viable strategy?
I've seen it happen a few times. The player had insane deck synergy for combat.
Yeah, if you have the cash you can try hitting mentat a lot but it can get pretty dicey later on in the game.
“You’re not going to graft your Stitched Horror to your Dagger and still go a city space.”
Well, sir, you must not know me very well!
27:43 um surely that is incorrect. That makes no sense!
As far as I'm aware, the BG bond only affects the symbols, the influence bumps can be obtained by grafting. I think the bumps should also come under the bond but as it stands, they don't.
Usually if they are corelated there will be an "-AND-" between the two sentences. Instead they have a full stop between the two sentences, so the bene in play effect should only affect the agent icon.
my way of using atomics is to either not use it at all, or only be able to use it on your own turn. whatever vocal minority complained about row staleness can enjoy the additional randomness it adds!
That's what the rules say: you can only use it on your turn.
✌️ P R O M O S M!!!