My Experience With Olympic Fencing and The Problems I have With It
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 ก.ค. 2024
- Not many of you know that I have actually practiced Fencing in the past. In this video I will talk to you about it and tell you the positive and negative aspects I feel fencing has.
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Music:
intro ES_Knights Templar 1 - Johannes Bornlöf
outro ES_Knights Templar 2 - Johannes Bornlöf
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I have many years of fencing experience, I've built like 57 fences.
lol
Most of my experience has been in tearing down fences.
57 you say, but how many was a Fencing Duel? I mean anyone can build a fence, but it takes guts to duel, building against each other in all manner of haste and aggression
TO THE DEATH! No...to the Pain!
...I don't think I'm quite familiar with that phrase.
The problem is not fencing as a sport, the problem was the mismatch between your interests and expectations and what Olympic fencing is. When people are trying to practice and prepare for tournaments and bouts, having someone complaining about the pistol grip being historically inaccurate is a distraction, which may have irritated your teacher. My college fencing club actually started explaining to new club members that fencing is an athletic sport and not historical simulation so that people who really want to do HEMA don't waste their time. I'm glad you found HEMA, but clearly, Olympic fencing is for you what golf is for me - a sport you don't like.
This is the most truth I've heard from a TH-cam comment in a long time. Thank you for saying this.
Exactly
Golf is good!
Honestly though, I kinda get the pistol grip complaints. Historical accuracy be damned, the idea of fencing with that just looks weird and weirdness takes away from the coolness of a sword. Still interested in fencing though
@@Stryfe52 For most people, pistol grips just work better for Olympic foil and epee fencing. If you actually start fencing, the grip will stop looking weird very quickly. French and Italian grips that don't look like the pistol grip are perfectly legal (or you can just fence saber where pistol grips are never used), and you can use them if you want, but there's a reason you'll find yourself in a small minority if you do. Fencers choose their equipment to maximize their chances of winning, and among fencers, nothing makes you look cooler than winning!
I started fencing at the recommendation of a HEMA practitioner that I met in Britain. The reason he recommended it as a starting point was because it would train my body to react quickly to sudden attacks and would give me basic ground work to build upon. I was very lucky that the instructor at my university was a man who would teach the competitive techniques, but also taught the original techniques and then explained why they fell out of use in competitive fencing. He also added Italian longsword into the cycle of classes that he does. In that class, one of the students asked what techniques would be allowed in a fight with longswords. His response was "Anything that works. If they leave their crotch unguarded, kick them there. If the come in to grapple, bite them if you have to. The techniques I'm teaching aren't to be used on the field of honor. This scenario would be that someone is coming at me with a sword and only one of us is walking away, and I'd use every dirty trick in the book to make sure it was me walking away."
Hi dude. This reply is just for the sake of achieving the closest we have to time travel. This was from 6 years ago, would love to hear how you are doing now.
@@its_dey_mate i second this
same how are you doing now?
i stopped watching kitten videos for this
Good.
What an honour xD
Mephistopheles - now if only they could make a fencing kittens video
Daaaamn!!
My math teacher in grade 8/9 was teaching us about multiplying polynomials, specifically through the FOIL technique (First Outside Inside Last). On the work sheet was a picture of a fencing sword!
...
It was an epee.
Math I was forced to learn that I never used. So many years later, for what?
to develop better problem solving skills
***** In that case, they should force kids to play video games that require solving problems.
***** Also, you didn't prove that it helped me solve problems outside of the classroom. The problems of polynomials and imaginary numbers and the like have never been in my life outside of the indoctrination center where they stole from my life to make me answer problems irrelevant to my life. Society stole from my life for no good reason.
***** Oh. One last point: Ballet helps kids to be healthy, so we should force them to take ballet classes. They are actually relevant for EVERY life since everyone needs health. Do you have a problem with forcing ballet? :-) With forcing video games on everyone, to be healthy or solve problems, respectively? Anyone who defends the system is an accomplice to theft of many months of millions of people's lives. Don't be an accomplice.
As someone who has fenced Sabre for six years, I can definitely confirm that fencing is not by any means a "sword fight." It is, like you said, a sport. Sadly, I think that going into it hoping that it would be more than that is probably why you ended up dropping it. Yes, there are a few practical uses of it, but it is far from what a lot of people hope it is when they start it. Many people end up dropping fencing once they realize this, however as someone who has stuck with it for many years I can assure you that in terms of strategy it does become more complicated, and new moves are introduced, but for the most part it just stays the (lovable) sport that it is. Besides for the screaming, which has become the plague of Sabre tournaments now (as the directors allow glass shattering screeching from the girls for some reason), I feel it is still a pretty rewarding sport to keep up with :)
Respect.
"Besides for the screaming, which has become the plague of Sabre tournaments" - lol why do the women scream???
God....working an RJCC last weekend...cadet women's sabre....I do not know HOW you scream like that and not call every dog for miles.
Violence of action. The "Ki" shout as it were.
Why fence only sabre? I do all 3 not competitively but for fun it's a lot better in my opinoin to do classical fencing and speed rounds then tournaments but that's just my opinoin I'd love to hear what you think and what's your favorite part of fencing my favorite part is making friends
I don't like foil. It's rough, course and irritating
Sigurd Torvaldsson Not like sword. Sword’s all soft and smooth.
Anakin quote
Sigurd Torvaldsson coarse#
Hello there
@@franciscofunari2343 why did you give up the high ground Mr Kenobi?
"That's like a gun-toothpick." 😂😂
I was a European fencer with epee for 12 years and switched to Kendo 16 years ago. I know both very well my accumulated experience is 28 years, so to say :). I participated in many European Worldcup Tournaments in fencing, in several European Championships in Kendo and I'm a go-dan now.
In fact fencing helps a lot. But only much later not in the beginning. Movement and technique are very different but the tactical concepts are still very similar and you need the same killer instinct.
But at the end it's always a "game". No blood, no kills. And that's a good thing.
Harald Hofer Respect !
Harald Hofer , Why stick with Kendo so long after your epee experience?
Yes! Fencing teaches you how to measure distance like no other sport. As a 10 year nationally ranked fencer, I found that these skilled heavily carried over to my wrestling and boxing
I mean measure and all is fine, but neither of these sports put any value on defense really and thats where they fall flat.
As in, no sport that ignores afterblows can come anywhere close to a fight.
@@merlball8520 because it's so much fun... 😁
As a long life fencer: having a problem with fencing as a martial arts, is like having a problem with tennis as a wrong representation of shooting a bow and arrow. In other words, it doesn't make sense. I love fencing, and I completely respect that you were disappointed in it because you wanted something more real to life, not a sports activity. But no fencing teacher worth its weight is going to claim he/she will teach you a viable martial arts. If they do, find another teacher please. Can fencers gain inspiration from martial arts such as HEMA or kendo? Sure, they are completely free to do so, but that is only to broaden their fencing experience.
I didn't know tennis was a straight descendant of the bow and arrow
@@milewesler9592 I don’t think it is?😅
@@Janisurai what a astute observation. However FENCING. was the sword, it just downgraded over many years. So it is a quite misleading " game. "
@@milewesler9592 Replace 'bow and arrow' with real tennis (i.e the style of tennis that Henry VIII would've played) and the OP's point still stands. Sure, it's an interesting game (I've even given it a go) and really fun in its own right, but it's not modern lawn tennis where having a massive serve is 70% of the game, you can bounce off walls and most of the game is actually about the 'chase' (which doesn't exist in the modern game). Source: I'm a 5.0 USTA and an aggressive noob at real tennis.
Fencing is the lawn tennis equivalent of HEMA/martial art. Is it inspired by actual smallsword/saber techniques? Yup. Will practicing fencing make you better at using the actual weapons? Generally no, though there are some transferable skills (similar to lawn vs real tennis) -- I practice smallsword and rapier at a HEMA club in addition to olympic foil and most of my HEMA is just foil with a different coat of paint. The footwork, distance and parries carry over magnificently.
As someone who has a year of foil experience i can say that those swords aren't as wobbly as they appear the reason they appear so is because of the incredible speed and strength of the olympians that for some reason Elitists like to compare all of fencing to.
And also an optical illusion :), as the fencers are gamboling as well so their hands go up and down too. Similar like our childhood's "wobbly pencil" trick. I've had the same experience with epee. When I was given a handful of blades to choose from, my first reaction was: "wow, this is rigid" (compared to what I've expected).
When i was first learning fencing, I started with a straight grip, and it wasn't "bad" for fencing, but when i began using a pistol grip, i found my movements and thrusts to be much more fluid. At this point i still prefer the pistol group for the purpose of fencing.
Pistol grip is the bomb
Hi Metatron :)
As a practicioner of both olympic and historical fencing (I am currently studying to become a Historical and Artristic Fencing Instructor at the Accademia Nazionale di Scherma), I have to say there's a point very few people grasp: They're the same discipline, but with different rulesets and weapons. Fencing, or "Scherma" is a martial art that goes beyond the weapon you're using.
There are universal pinciples (speed, tempo and timing, distance, strategy and tactics) that are applied differently based on what's the game that we're playing: if the game is killing each other with a sabre, for example, of course I will have to effectively parry your blow and riposte on the neck with a proper cut; but if the game is switching on a light with the right-of-way rule, I will just touch your blade and poke you on the arm, so that the referee gives me the point even if you scored a split second before me.
What doesn't change is the underlying mentality of the duellist.
The right-of-way rule was born as a mean to preserve duelling gentlemen's life, to maintain a better "frase d'armi" or construction of the conclusive action in order to avoid a double hit or "colpo delle due vedove". So it's actually one of the most "historical" components of modern olympic fencing.
What happened then, what created this aberration of fencing, is that the mean turned into an end, so all the technique is being thrown away in favour of this game of electrified tag. Probably to make it easier and accessible to more people. We leave theoretical discussion to enter FIE politics here, which I'm not really into.
And, tecnhically, REAL swordsmanship is dead and there's nothing we can do about it. We cannot practice ACTUAL swordfighting without dying, being badly injured or ending up in jail after the first bout. So we have to make compromise: olympic fencing is a good one, because it withholds all the technical and theoretical components of real fencing, even though the outcome is a bit crappy (but I'll make an exception for Epee here, which I think is the most HEMAish because it's non-conventional, and therefore more "realistic"... Yes, I'm an epeeist 😜); HEMA is another compromise, but in my opinion in the HEMA community there is too much pedantry on the interpretation of one or another specific treatise, and not enough good use of fencing principles, so the result is a bit crappy in HEMA competitions as well...
The best approach would be, in my opinion, to learn the proper mindset by attending foil (OH THE HORROR) or sabre lessons with a maestro (not instructor), and then move over to non-conventional fencing such as epee and/or longsword, sword and buckler etc.
Perhaps sooner or later I'll make a proper video about this point and explain better 🙂
Peace :D
P.S. Yes, when you start epee with no fencing background, it's better to use a pistol grip at first... The french one requires a bit more dexterity, so your instructor was right 😆
P.P.S. Epee also has, of course, a big aberration, which is a double point for a double hit, instead of 0 points. So if we're, say, 11-13 I will just attack over your attack and seek the double hit so that I score 15 before you. That's what makes me think that the best ruleset for historical fencing is one similar to epee, but with no points for the double.
Scoring boxes did also mean you would not need 5 ref's to watch a single match. Tournaments in the UK can struggle to get 1 ref for a match let alone 5.
The thing I also find when people use french grips is that they hold it too tightly and much like a club.
Thank you. As a fencer myself I love your reply.
Not totally dead... they do real duels in south american prisons (yeah, they fight to death). Of course, they dont use olympic stuff but home made, but the principle is the same, very long thin and flexible blades that can both cut and stab, being the stab the usual movement.
To be honest. I saw some video of HEMA tournaments and they tend to be emberrassing. I understand the mindset is "kill without dying", but I've seen too many people just running at each other, trying to move the opponent's weapon out of the way and then grappling in a very brawl-like manner. I lost all my interest in hema after seeing these competitions. I like technique, not brawling.
Always wanted to try fencing but I'm too short for it. I have many years of experience in semi-contact (which is a rule system in kick boxing that is extremely similar to fencing) and I painfully learned that height is a huge advantage.
He didn't read it anyways🤣
I did 5 years of fencing (foil) before moving onto HEMA and I have no regrets. it taught me to keep distance and good footwork.
Your work ethic is amazing. Seriously, I have been inspired by it. Been loving the videos and the schedule!
Your video reminds of several things I have experienced in the past. I too learned Olympic Fencing (OF) because I was interested in swords and there was no HEMA school near by.
I came away with a great respect for OF. Yes, there are things in OF that are not realistic as you mention. You have to realize that allot of these rules were created before safety gear was readily available the way it is today. But overall, it will teach you allot and develop reflexes and corrdination. I have always incorporated many things that I leared in fencning even when learning Filipino knife fighting and they have worked very well. For example, in OF I was taught to always have my weapon infront of me and to have the point at the opponent. I guess I learned that from epee and foil fencning. I also learned the effectiveness of thrust. I would spar with allot of people in knife fighting and some of them were supposed to be very advanced students. They would do weird things with the grips, blades positioned not infront of them, and even moving the blades around. I know this sounds very arrogant but I ususally ended stabbing many of them with no problems: I just treated soemwhat like a OF match.
Yes, there are some goofy rules in OF but if your techniques don't work then you don't win. That makes it very utilitarian. You are correct in that there are allot of people and schools who talk a good game but fall apart on the field. They have come up with some really dumb stuff that doesn't work.
I think OF has allot to offer and with some adjustment, it can lend itself to some very practical technique.
yea in OF you learn coordination really well and the reflexes you need in Sabre are only matched by table tennis players in the olympic games
What style of FMA have you been learning?
My case in point! 👍🏼
You would have enjoyed sabre alot more. Pistol grip does not exist in sabre fencing, at least not that I have seen. You also get to slash as well as stab, which opens up alot of moves and more swinging motion.
Look, fencing is a sport. View it the same way you would view boxing. Yea it will help in a sword fight against an untrained guy, but it would likely lose to just about every other sword style out there thats actually designed for combat. Fencing is not. It is a sport that evolved from combat into just that: a sport.
Aaron Paul I personally hate sabre fencing, did epee fencing for 8 years and at some point our clubs sabre fencers asked me to join them for practice so did that as well on the side for 2-3 years but I hated it so much that if you have a bad referee, the match will be horrible.. I know I might sound like I'm making up excuses but I just got the feeling that it's too much of a referee sport to decide who has the advantage in a situation.. At the point when referee feels like third participant in the match, it's all wrong.
Boxing is useful in hand to hand combat, just as TKD, Karate and other fully stand-up forms are. Perhaps more useful than the point sparring tournaments in the latter two that I mentioned, but in a real fight it is still incomplete. Only MMA, which incorporates boxing with the awareness and tactical understanding of the possibility of being pulled off of your feet, is a truly complete hand-to-hand combat system. Boxing has proven more effective and useful in recent years of MMA competition as boxers and kickboxers have become more rounded and skilled at defending against takedowns and capitalizing on the shortcomings of many grapplers who thought that they would alway be able to get away with only knowing grappling, but takedown defense requires a slight adjustment to the traditional boxing stance and style of defense. Boxing defense tends to focus on head and torso movement and without fear of takedowns, a good defensive boxer can frequently drop most of their weight to their back foot while avoiding combinations but in MMA, this opens you up for feinted takedown maneuvers. That's why even experienced boxers have learned to avoid this and slightly adjust their stance to remained prepared for takedown defense when fighting in MMA. Either that or be like Anderson Silva, who was so good with BJJ submissions from his back that he could carry a traditional boxing stance without concern since he could effectively defend and submit his opponent after a successful takedown.
lutin grognon
Lol like you would beat a pro saber fencer. You couldn't even come closer to him. He would beat you on footwork alone. Of course fencing will give you a great advantage to a normal person, same as boxing. Give Szilagy a couple of weeks of training and I doubt even the best HEMA fighter could beat him
Roberto Calvo I realize how fencer talks like a ballerina, boasting how powerful their « footwork » are with their legs in tights. Well unfortunately historically fencing technique will be worse then useless in real fight, since all single hand swords were used along with shields, which make most of the fencing techniques redundant if not dangerous. Another popular weapon will be polearms like halberd which were heavier and longer reach then your sword making your moves suicidial. Not to mention they all wore armour historical making your weapon completely useless even it hit on the enemy.
Even in horseback fighting there were also technique of circling enemy with agile horses (which hussars like to use), unlike the well narrowed stage in fencing sport which forbids much movement
@Remove Talos
Footwork, timing and distance control are extremely important in sword fighting, all of those are taught in fencing. Most HEMA clubs never emphasize those as much as they should.
Has anyone gone from HEMA to Olympic fencing? It would be neat to hear your experience.
Raf, I agree with your point, and that's the reason I chose the saber to train olimpic fencing when I was young.
At my city it was the closest thing to a real sword combat.
Best wishes
I also like swords, and I prefer the French grip, but unlike you I love fencing and the idea of an 18th or 19th century gentlemen's duel. I never really was fixated on MEDIEVAL swordsmanship. And besides, with my skill in fencing, I feel that I can use pretty much any sword with some success. Also I came to really admire Fencing for what it is, or is descended from - it has such precision and technique!
What is the one hobby or art that you have actually stuck with? I ask because it seems that you practice many things relatively briefly and then quit them after finding "issues" with them.
Yildirim Indeed, this does seem to be the case. I suppose finding something you really, truly enjoy is sometimes difficult and may involve trying several options, but Metatron has 'issues' with so many things. Not only that, he feels the need to tell the whole world about it. Just try things and move on if necessary.
It’s a good question. Trying and not having things work out is important, though. We want to get the very best use of our time, not just something that is ok.
@@another3997 He feels the need to tell the whole world about it. Thats fine, because we feel the need to watch his videos. Nobody is forcing us.
@@another3997 And for some reason you feel the need to watch his videos abt it, strange huh
Both certainly have their benefits. I took Olympic fencing in college and was even top of my class. Like you, I absolutely hate the pistol grip, it's trash but I do understand why they insist. It's all about wrist alignment, with a French grip, your wrist is at an angle which slightly limits your tip control. The pistol grip allows for a downward parry without having to twist your wrist completely over to catch the low thrust.
2:19 are you from Sicily? in that case i neither found any hema club on my town
if i want to learn how to fight with sword and shield (or axe and shield), what to choose?
A video shortly after 6. How early do you get up on weekdays?
Since I just started going back to classes for competition fencing, I feel this needs to be shared. The instructor commented on how we no longer think of them as swords, so we will do things you'd never do with a live blade. His suggestion? Hook the swords up to car batteries. "If you knew every time that hit you, you'd feel that zap, you'd focus a lot more on not getting hit."
I stopped listening to winged hussars for this video
*THEN THE WINGED METATRON ARRIVED*
InSanic lol
COMING DOWN THE MOUNTAIN SIDE!
I love how it's become a meme
Darth Guilder ...you went back to listening to it, right?
so since the katana is somewhere between a one handed and 2 handed sword what would be the kind of style to learn to use the katana properly? i'm curious.
Hey metatron I noticed in a few videos you referring to types of swords as a (such and such) sword type 3. Is there a reference of the type of swords numbered? I imagine there is but I'm looking to see a book or list with examples of the swords, numbers, and pictures or drawing of it?
Hello Metatron! How would I go about contacting you personally? I don't mean via telephone or anything necessarily. It's about an Italian class project in University that requires an actual Italian citizen. And other then the people of the local Massolin di Fiori society (which haven't been answering my phone calls sadly), you're the only other Italian that I know, could you help me out? According to my teacher it should be really as simple as a single message. I would like to explain it a bit more in detail in private, but I don't know if TH-cam has a PM system. Thank you in advance.
Please contact me on my facebook page "Raffaello Urbani"
I will, thank you very much.
I've sent you a friend request on Facebook since Facebook's message system is kind of complicated, since when you send to non-friends they end up on the "other" message box, and sometimes they don't show up at all.
Metatron , I just sent you friend request on fb , you do not have to reciprocate : is just so I can follow you .. love everything you have to say :D
I know competitive fencers sometimes sort of patronize HEMA folks, which is unfortunate. Speaking as a long time and very high level sport Sabre fencer, as well as a long time disciple of both German and Italian longsword, I cant hold my piece any longer.
Metatron, and all other fellow HEMA folks- modern sport fencing is still very much fencing. The two biggest critiques I hear are “sport fencers aren’t afraid of being hit so long as they get there first” and the pistol grip complaint- more on that in a moment.
In sport fencing, we have a concept called “right of way” (in foil and Sabre) which evolves from the historical idea of having to address an incoming attack before attacking in turn in order to increase one’s chance of survival. The goal is still to do everything one can to hit without being hit. That’s called a “one light” touch. It’s what we do our very best to achieve. That way there can be no question who scored. HEMA has the same issue. Even at the very highest levels currently available, the vast majority of modern HEMA fighters will always try to attack into an attack. I see this all the time with my club- I attack fast and from distance, in a straight cut, and yet ALL of my club mates will just swing right into me, rather than address my attack first. It’s so prevalent that you will see it happening just as commonly in high level HEMA as in sport fencing. So, please stop the critiques.
Point two- the pistol grip. The pistol grip was designed originally for competitive foil and epee fencers to maximize the ergonomic potential of one’s hand to increase speed and tip precision aka “point control”. And it really does. The goal of sport fencing is to both: learn to fight, but also to compete against others and that means you have to train every part of yourself to be the fastest, most precise and most athletic you can be. It typically flows much faster than it looks, meaning that it also is usually moving much faster than most historical fencers (long sword excluded) typically move. At those speeds, and having to hit with a very small part of your sword, the extra precision allowed by the pistol grip makes all the world of difference. I had me reservations with it when I first saw it, but it really is a huge help at competitive speeds.
Lastly- as to your training. Listen, I’m not gonna criticize the club you went to, but they should have started you with foil. The rules and techniques of it provide a very basic info to the other two disciplines. Most successful training programs follow this method and, as a former instructor myself, students of mine who began with foil always outperformed those who did not. I was a Sabre man myself, even made alternate on the US World Team in 2003. Sabre was the perfect fit for me as it’s all about speed and aggression, but without my basis in foil, I never could have gotten where I did.
Sorry to rant, but sometimes both competitive and HEMA fencers get entirely too “high horse” about their respective disciplines and I figured my perspective as having spent my whole life studying both might shed some light here.
I like the explanation, you make good points. And now I really want to fence sabre at your club
Perhaps my experience is too limited, but I haven't heard any claims of superiority from the sport fencer side. HEMA is simply too small for most people to have even heard of it, much less criticize.
On the other hand, respect to you for your skills!
Long boring comment, stopped reading at the second sentence.
As a fellow fencer (though not on your level) I agree with nearly all of this except the right of way part. Yes it exists, but it doesn't encourage you to try and strike without getting hit, it just encourages you to strike first (or in a way where you have right of way). I mean even if parry and gain the right of way as a defender your not really deflecting the attack. Your just trying to tap their blade so that you can attack back and get the right of way. After you touch their blade to yours you don't care if they hit you, you just want to hit them as quick as you can before the lockout kicks in on the scorebox. Also, the pistol grip did make my hand hurt after extended sessions. It's just really awkward feeling, even if it does make point control a LITTLE easier.
As an épée fencer I can say that we dont really patronize HEMA. Actually a lot of people at my club think it's cool, and everyone at my club is Korean
Is it possible to create a fourth modality in sport fencing, epee rules with the Sabre slash attacks? Would there be a problem with the electric gear?
I heard that in HEMA they also teach you to fight with other weapons than sword-like ones, like axes, or warhammers...is it true ? Cause i am interestes in axes, swords and knifes.
I have not fenced or done hema. But i have done boxing since i was 15 and i used to think like you when it comes to terms with mma. I wanted to do mma for a long time but only had boxing available and i thought that it would be a disadvantage to spend all those years only working my hands.
Only now i realize how much i learned in boxing and that it was not any harder to unlearn bad habits than to learn new ones, which is also a reason you can see like kickboxers going into the ufc faster than a guy starting with mma from scratch.
I strongly believe it can be the same case with hema and fencing and if you wanna do hema but only have fencing available do the fencing. You definitely will learn hema easier with a background in fencing.
Totally agree with what you say. Many of the HEMA guys have fencing backgrounds.
I like your videos, but this one doesn't make much sense... Olympic fencing is a SPORT. it is not meant to be a historical knight fight reenactment XD. I used to do foil fencing myself. Of course thats not realistic combat... It never was meant to be... Foil is the most technical weapon out of the three.
For people who don't know: both Foil and Epee are thrust weapons only. In Epee, all targets are valid. From the foor to the helmet. In Foil, only the body and crotch (lol) are. Arms, Helmets and legs are not valid. The Epee is a very stiff triangular blade, while the foil is a small rectangular blade that is very bendy. You can actually hit your opponent in the back in foil (would technically be legal in Epee, but good luck bending that triangular blade XD). In Sabre, everything from the waist up is valid, and you can both thrust and slash. The blade is also triangular, so it's quite stiff. It is not as fat as the Epee. There are other difference in the rules as well between the three weapons but I guess that gives you guys an idea.
Fencing is a beutiful sport. But don't take it as a realistic fight reenactment... it's not! Its an individual sport, much like Tennis...
I think it may have been Matt Easton that addressed this point, but it might have been Skallagrim. Don't remember which it was, but one of the gentlemen made the point that the reason so many people /want/ to see Olympic Fencing as "real sword fighting!" is because until Hema started getting mainstream (something extremely recent), fencing and Kendo were the only widely available outlets for learning how to (in theory) handle a sword. Because fencing, for a long time has been, at least on the surface, one of the only formal ways to PROPERLY learn to handle a sword, a lot of people have forced themselves into confirmation bias that "No, it's not just a sport it's real sword fighting, because that's what I came here to learn, because nowhere else taught it!"
turmat01 thank you someone who actually has experience in fencing like I. I get that people think fencing is a actual sword fight but in the end it’s just a sport and people don’t get it.
As you say Olympic fencing was never meant to be anything but a sport. By the time the Olympics came about swords were declining in military use. To be fair, early sport fencing schools were teaching fencing both as sport and for military use. Angelo's School of Arms was one if the first (if not the first) to shift toward the sport aspect, but even they also were teaching British infantry soldiers how to use their swords for realzies. They taught a method for real swordsmanship that could also be used for sport/physical fitness. Kinda like how military bootcamp is designed to condition you as a soldier, but you can also just use it as a fitness program. It became really popular as a sport and over time it shifted away from military focus and eventually dropped it entirely by the time Olympic fencing started. So it has its origins in real fencing and I personally can't fault anyone for being disappointed that it has lost that element.
I would like to see a 4th category added to the Olympics that goes back to earlier fencing rules emulating a real duel. You could call that a form of HEMA, but I'd be ok if it stayed sportified and just ditched certain rules. Keep the limited target areas but do away with right of way penalize doubles so that you can't just get one point and then double out in Epee.
Awesome videos. Keep up the great videos.
I live in Colombia and i have grown interest with fencing so i would like to know what are the Steps and requirements to get into the sport
As a foilist, I agree completely with your assessment of foil - it's a game, a modern sport, and it doesn't really represent historical sword fighting at all. I prefer the sport aspect of fencing, its athleticism.
You're a typical HEMA fanatic - you want to feel you're playing with a real sword. But modern fencing isn't about the weapon - matches are won and lost entirely on footwork, distance and timing. The weapon is incidental.
dzfz2100 lame.. history is sad
I just started HEMA, specifically German Longsword, and I find that my 3 year prior Kendo experience is helping me greatly, the primary thing I need to learn at the moment is stepping out of line and defending myself while making my attacks but there is a decent amount of carry over and I feel like it's helped me progress much quicker than I would have with no prior martial art experience.
As someone who mainly fences foil (currently a 'B' in USFA's system), consider this a contrary perspective. There seems to be a notion in the comments that foil is 'useless' outside the specific ruleset in modern fencing. That, to put it charitably, is BS. Foil as a discipline forces you to master a number of blade actions and distance management. You can't just turtle by forcing doubles, like you can in Epee. You have to parry and riposte. You can't just focus on low risk arm picks. You have to set up a deep attack to the torso. You can't rely on getting points through doubles. You have to take the initiative and set up attacks because of ROW. The closest analogy I can give you is learning tennis vs pickleball. Tennis forces you to use body rotation and master technique whereas pickleball is a lot more forgiving on form and athleticism.
It's quite well known within fencing that if you're sufficiently advanced in foil, you can pretty much switch to Epee without a lot of training and do well against anyone who is not a very high level competitor. As an example, I've never trained in Epee at all, but am currently a 'C' in USFA's system. Likewise, I've seen 'U's and 'E's (the lowest ratings currently possible) in foil consistently beat Bs and Cs in Epee when they try foil. At one of our in-house club tournaments, a foil fencer who'd only joined about a year earlier easily beat (5-1) an A rated Saber fencer who'd been fencing since he was 7. Put simply, the skills you develop in foil translate the best into other weapons and going the other way is far more difficult. So, no disrespect to your coach, but she should've insisted that you do at least a couple of months of foil.
I also practice HEMA rapier and smallsword (though mainly recreationally and somewhat for the scholarship) and foil translates even better to those depending on the ruleset. Once you're really good at distance and timing, even without knowing exact techniques, you can land covered hits against people who've only done HEMA just through footwork. Though they'll probably beat you if you get into a grapple.
Pistol grip vs french grip: I've fenced with both. I like fencing french when I'm at the club and sometimes use it competitively in Epee. In competitive foil though, you'd have to be idiot to pick french over pistol. The pistol grip pretty much forces your tip to point the right way. It's more or less impossible to dislodge the blade from your hand and your blade actions are a lot stronger. If I were teaching someone fencing, I'd probably start them out in french but basically tell them to switch to pistol if they have any desire to fence in a tournament.
You are really good! Those subs are well deserved.
As someone who did Fencing for around a year of fencing with mostly foils but sometimes sabres I loved the Pistol grip. It felt right in the hand and the movements in fencing felt natural. It's a grip that was made for fencing. Fencing is a sport not combat and as a sport it's great but there are elements of it that can work in a martial context. The footwork you get from fencing is second to none and to this day even after years of not really practicing it I can easily close or widen my distance against an aggressor easily and if I'm carrying a knife I know I'm able to get close to anyone who wants to do me harm. While I ended up giving my foil, with the great pistol grip, away I like any Puerto Rican own a Machete, I still like to practice the sabre forms with it and fool around a bit. But yeah Olympic Fencing, specially with foils is mostly a points game. My teacher who trained the Olympic team use to say that back in his day people really hit each other hard so that the Judge could know who hit first but this days with electronic sensors mostly replacing Judges it became all about speed. I understand as someone who was more interested in Historical 14th Century Swordplay to not be a fan of modern Fencing equipment but there's a reason for it to be that way. A Pistol grip for example is great to protect your wrist and have the right form all the time while using a Foil. But with sabre for example you use a more classical sabre handle with hand cover so that is more similar to how a sabre was used in combat. With Swords it's pretty much anything you want to do, it's full body so there's more movement options.
That being said it's your equipment so a trainer forcing you to go to a Pistol Grip is definetely not good. A good teacher simply let's the student grab a couple of equipments and see which one calls to you so to speak. For foil fencing for me the pistol grip called me and I bought my own online at a bargain, you had to see the reaction in my dorm when a long ass box came for me lol.
Can you learn fencing using a fence?
Yes
In theory, yes
hello i will like to know your opinion of kendo vs fencing what will be the outcome between 2 top rank masters if you can make a video i will love to know you opinion ty
Hey Matatron what do you think of "Jogo do Pau" ( lusitanian/galician sword(ish) art style) ... i would like your opinion on this ... keep up with the awesome work ...
heeeey... i like Foil!
for wrapping my food :^)
I am doing fencing for 8 years now. I think fencing is more for people who like 17th and 18th century swordfighting. I like both medieval as well as 17th and 18th century swordfighting. But i prefer want fencing. Oh. And a fun fact. On my club you can also learn on how to fight with bayonets on rifles.
As you were ranting about the pistol grip of mostly foils: Do you know about academic fencing, mainly done in Germany or Austria? I believe that would be an interesting topic for you.
Is the rapier a classification or a different sword altogether?
fencing is for whimps, real men throw pommels!
Real men come up with original jokes.
Ranziel1 you sure foiled that guy
ranziel ended travis rightly
You must end him rightly!
*SCA rapier melee, throws pommel
The mindset is different. A sword fight is to kill someone while a sport is to collect points.
Hi.
I enjoy your videos very much and I must say I agree with you on this topic, as, in fact, in most others.
I started learning how to fight and sword fight with my father when I was 3. I am now 38 and I never stopped.
My father's focus was stage fencing but, as a martial artist and a stage director that staged fights, he always looked for ways to study the techniques that would have been used in ancient times.
At the time you didn't have HEMA you had modern fencing, ancient manuals (if you could get a copy of them) and your wits.
He went on to become a modern fencing instructor and we where both among the first people practicing HEMA in an organized fashion in Portugal, when the opportunity for that came alone in about 2008.
All the while I worked with him and from 2004 with Master Eugénio Roque (you can google him). Still our focus was and still is stage fighting; we practiced both modern fencing and HEMA in order to best be able to choreograph (or so we tell ourselves, truth be told we were inspired by the same kind of lore that inspired so many others).
Because I spent all those years practicing fencing and several oriental martial arts, when I finished my bachelor's degree in acting I specialized in stage fight. The last few years I worked hard with the Portuguese Fencing Federation and became a fencing instructor and a maître d'arms for the Academie d'Arms Internationale. All the while keeping in contact with the guys that direct HEMA in my country and attending to some practice sessions (I can't be everywhere at once).
All this to say: Yes, modern fencing is a sport. There are lots of details in the rules (not just the equipment used) that make it different from HEMA. It is great, as you said, in preparing you to fight in HEMA. The mind set is different because in sabre and foil there is the priority rule - not so in epée, though. It personally bums me that épée (wich is the sword) can't score by cutting but... that is just the game. Even HEMA, where you practice the real techniques as a martial art, has rules that make the fights different from what they would be like when it come to combat, because... well, in the old days they got maimed and/or died in combat a lot. :p So, fencing is a combat sport, and HEMA is martial arts (arts not art because there are so many styles and weapons, like you said), but in reality, even though HEMA might be closer to a real combat, both types of fighting are game. It only depends on what kind of game you prefer.
The closest thing to real fight is Battle of Nations... but the injury rates are about 20% and sometimes people die. Even in HEMA long term exposure to hard impacts, despite the protections, can be harmful for one's health.
The way I see it fencing evolved from a way to kill people into a sport and the into art (with artistic fencing/stage fight). Sure this is not absolutely linear, there were always different tips of stage fights and sort of sporting events with swords and stuff, but it is the way I structure it in terms of evolution - from something that kill to something that elevates the living.
Of course artistic fencing (the sword fighting part of stage fighting) is completely different. But I believe that in order to make it more believable you have to master all you can manage to master in fencing so you can later deconstruct it and use it for the narrative you build when choreographing. Its fake on purpose because the purpose is different. But it shouldn't look fake (unless that is required by the director). But that is an all new video... Still, many look for the real thing inspired by stuff they have seen on stage or scree so... hurray for stage fighting and great story telling (even if the fake fighting is not that good). :)
Personally if I feel like fighting (with weapons - unarmed is different, I am also graduated in different eastern martial arts) I go for modern fencing épée, its safer than HEMA (and as an actor and fight choreographer it can be bad to become injured so I don't risk it as mush as when I was younger). For learning real martial techniques and the real feeling of the fight, HEMA (but I practice only for research - and I love it). For fun, work and money artistic fencing and stage fighting (actually may main focus although I spend many hour on the others as preparation for this) .
But thi is just me. :)
Cheers,
Tiago da Cruz
----(----------------
Hey brother, we're now facebook friend! Thank you for your acceptance, and for everything you do.
Jordan Mills.
For me, it depends on how much experience they've had in either. Someone with a few months of Kendo is much easier to train than someone with a few months of foil, but also someone with YEARS of Kendo will be harder to train than someone with years of foil. In the end though the difference is small.
My favorite thing about taking on either group is watching their faces when I tell them they will never have to do that stupid duck walk ever again. I mean I guess we're screwed if Santa's elves attack, but that's a risk I'm willing to take. (Yes I know it builds leg strength, but there are so many other ways of doing that.)
If you think footwork is dumb and historically inaccurate, you probably are a weeb, or just a shitty longsword fencer who forgets other weapons existed.
@@jarrarwinks8470 Where did I say footwork is dumb?
Two changes would fix sport fencing. First is that the time between your hit and theirs needs to be greatly extended to at least a full second. Second is that double hits need to be punished so that sport fencers have to defend themselves rather than just worry about who touches the other one first.
In Epee yes.
That's not really how sport fencing works outside of Epee though. Foil and Sabre have priority systems where the person who first initiates an attack or who last makes a successful parry/riposte is awarded the point.
It's a massively oversimplified way to determine the winner of the fight, but it is rooted in historical systems; you'll get the same thing if you try to do Broadsword, military sabre, dussack, or even longsword in a modified capacity (see Liechtenauer's Vor and Nach, or Meyer's provoker, taker and hitter).
I also like Matt Easton's videos ;)
Those problems only exist in Epee (the one Metatron apparently fenced).
No, there's no need to "fix" anything in fencing. In fact every time they try to do that it only causes more problems. The last time they messed with the foil timings it caused people to start using weird techniques to avoid hits... all because they wanted to "fix" it and get rid of flicking.
The thing is, fencing is a sport and it's not a simulation of sword fighting. If that's what you think sport fencing is or what you want it to be, then you're thinking about it wrong.
squiddypiddy even though it's based off the rapier, it's still very different from one. All of the weapons have some change from their original weapon (foil and small sword, saber and saber, epee and rapier).
Saber is probably closest to it's weapon but real sabers also have probably the most variation of the three based weapons.
Epee is the closest to the original dueling rules of first blood. However there's a reason the other two weapons didn't follow this in the first place.
Epee and Foil both came from the Small sword, which came from the Rapier
Very interesting video!
Metatron, I'd like to know more about unarmed martial arts during battles, maybe in western medieval times, or also in Japan culture during the centuries (that might be even more interesting). A comparison would be awesome too. Do you know something about the topic? I'm interested since I practice traditional Jujitsu (not the brazilian crappy modern one).
Anyway I like all your videos, they always teach me something!
I've been a subscriber for a few years and I dont think I've seen a video on it from you but I'd be very very interested to hear what your opinion is when it comes to italian vs spanish styles of historical fencing.
Wait a sec, you're Sicilian? Please make a video about it! The impression foreigners have of Sicilians is almost fantastical. Stuff like honor culture, hotheadedness, mafia-stuff.
No wonder he wears a maille shirt 24/7.
You can't compare Fencing/Kendo/Medieval with a real life situation and say that Medieval has advantage over the others. Cos you don't get out in the streets and stab people. You might only do that in video games.
Thats as false as saying that an MMA fighter does not know how to fight because he only does it in the ring....come on man, the diference betwen fencing/kendo and HEMA is that fencing and kendo are sports, they have a set of rules that both restrict you and give you a core mindset and approach to the encounter. HEMA( historical European martial arts) is a martial art, a fighting sistem, its designed to provide options for any possibility you might encounter, be it cutting, thrusting, grappling, ground fighting, etc. Not only that but HEMA competitions try to be as less restrictive as safely possible, while at the same time trying to uphold the value of self preservation first and foremost when you fight.
To put it simply, fencing and kendo both strive to be a sport, entertaining, challenging, and fast paced. HEMA on the other had strives to be a martial art, an effective simulation on how to use a real sword in a real life or death situation and survive.....of course it has to make compromises, nobody is saying it perfectly represents every aspect of a real duel to the death, but it is the current closest representation, and it's in a constant effort to make itself closer and closer to reality.
How much of a difference is there between Kendo and Kumdo?
I completely agree with you about the handle when I was researching fencing a few years ago I saw that and it really put me off of it
Seriously? There isn't a club by you? I mean I live in the middle of nowhere and I found a club I can get to often enough. Granted it's a 2 and a half hour drive but it's worth it.
i live in a populated western city , cant find one unless i want to drive for 4 hours + .
Chis, Sicily is an island and he doesn't own a private jet. Yanks, lol.
There's a lot of boat traffic from sicily to the southern part of Calabria and so the rest of italy, but yes, not that comfortable thing to do many times a week. Also, not every one has the time to drive many times a week for several hours.
I did some fencing and found it so funny when friends would want to spar. One, in particular, would swing so wide and it was just so easy to dart in on a thrust and dart back and just keep hitting him and not ever being anywhere to get struck. This guy thought he knew sword fighting but he was all talk and it was fun to know a little and just put him in his place.
People who watch movies and swing a stick in their backyard afterwards never realize how much they telegraph all their moves
Hello Metatron! Greetings from Argentina. Hey, we are here with a couple of friends in the middle of an argument and would appreciate your thoughts. By any chance do you know if the Swiss guards have any formal training with their halberds? And do you have an opinion on how effective halberds can be if used properly defending the Pope nowadays? Thanks and hope you read this before we leave the bar jaja
do they have Olympic Kendo yet?
As an olympic (épée) and HEMA fencer I have to agree with you:
1. Yes, Foil is somehow lacking (that is why most new fancers gravitate to sword and saber)
2. I completly agree on the pistol grip, they are atrocious. I also prefer the french grip.
3. Truth be told: There is actually very few difference between épée an rapier. You do not even have to "unlearn" much, the stances and attack patterns are almost identical and the agressivness necessary for épée is quite helpfull.
The other weaons in HEMA gain from the additional knowledge abour distance, tempo and speed.
If you think about stating to fence (olympic or HEMA) I recommend épée as a stating point.
Nothing wrong with the pistol grip. Everyone uses what they feel is right for them and that is how it should be.
A traditional rapier has just a symmetrical pistol grip.
As for foil lacking, it has not much to do with Hema, it's just what sword/sabre people are bound to say. If you're slow and not that clever, go for sword. Go for sword, that's also what they said to me.
can you do a kali (arnis/escrima/fma) video?
theres a really good one done by funker tactical, search funker tactical kali then search funker tactical escrima
the first one is why filipino martial arts trainin is unrealistic and the second is must watch double stick beastmode and the truth about defanging the snake. id link them but youtube is a bitch about links in comments.
Gurren Gambit search doug marcaida.
bmxriderforlife1234 Magellan didn't say kali is unrealistic back in 1521 during the battle of mactan.
not racist actually, what im saying is watch his video because youll see what good kali looks like versus bad kali, the stuff is great but a lot of places dont teach it properly.
gurren gambit yeah back when people were still practicing it properly go watch the two videos i suggested and youll understand what i mean.
I've got a good HEMA teacher, he has a pretty good sense of humor. It's serious when it needs to be serious, lighthearted when it needs to be lighthearted.
only Hema experience here (little bit of Hankumdo though)
I have te feeling that Kendo would be a better start, as it is more actual sparring rather then see who can poke the other first.
How does Kendo look at grappling and disarming btw?
Not really the case. You'll be practicing overhead strikes for about a year before you do anything close to sparring.
Metatron does not seem to understand the advantages of learning fencing with a pistol grip as a beginner. Had he been just a little bit wiser he would have listened to his instructor and after a while would would have been able to make a more informed decision rather than pretend he knew what was better for him from the outset. When he knew a bit more about fencing *then* he might have decided to use a french grip (there are a number of valid reasons why its just detrimental for a beginner to start with one). Just because something is historical, it does not make for the best initial learning method.
Yeah. He's a LARPer not an athlete.
The existence of the pistol grip shows the priority of fencing, sport. it is likely that he realized that it may be so sport oriented that it didn't provide the insight into swordplay he wanted and that his time was better spent elsewhere. In HEMA we talk all the time about what artifacts in the practice come about as a result of rules, equipment, and sparring partners. This practice helps us find ways to minimize these factors and get as close to the roots of the culture as possible. Metatron has no interest in fencing because he has little interest in sport as far as i can tell.
Great comment and analysis but it took me 3 tries to realize you weren't calling him "sport" as in "old sport" lol@@lowfatlatte0
ahhh you hurt my feeling really bad;(
foil is actually a pretty interesting fencing style and it is also a GOOD choice before you move to small sword.
love this channel
foil is foundation for good epee because epee on its own you can be good but to excel you need to have a foundation in foil typically for fencers because in foil you learn how to parry repost, timing footwork beat attacks, etc all of which are important technical skills needed to defeat your opponent I think
Epee fencing is actually the least like actual dueling. I'll leave saber out of this because I've only fenced epee and foil, but foil is based off of dueling and closer to it than epee by far. Dueling is referring to a duel for honor instead of a sword fight between soldiers on a battlefield. The basic principle foil is built upon is to avoid doing anything that would be considered suicidal in a real duel. The right-of-way was established to model that. If you attack without the right of way, your action would likely end in your death if the weapon were real. Foil target area is the torso because a wound in that area would penetrate a vital organ, and it's important to make sure the first hit is the last. When an opponent gets a simple wound, they go into flight or fight, so in a duel, you had to hit the torso to ensure your own safety. I'll agree with you on the pistol grips because that addition was for the purpose of bettering the sport rather than attributing to historical accuracy.
That's too bad to hear in reference to your instructor. The best teachers are the ones who are both ready to admit they can be wrong and are willing to learn.
Outlast The Dark also, good teachers can adjust for the needs of their pupils!
All due respect as someone who has done sport fencing for about 14 years it sounds like he was waning her to teach him something outside what the class was actually offering. This can be quite vexing as an instructor.
He sounds like he was being a dick to an instructor about something he doesn't know shit about. He is lucky it was fencing where nothing really happens to you, in kickboxing or BJJ something like that leads to being punched or kicked in the head, or choked to sleep for beating a dick.
Hi the Metatron. First I'd like to say i really enjoy your videos, they are fascinating!
About the pistol hilt, I didn't really understand why you hate them so much and prefer the french one... I have some experience in fencing (mainly in saber but also a little bit in foils) and i have found the pistol hilt much better in terms of maneuver and control of the blade. This grip is meant to be used in an Olympic fencing duels which are different than hema duel, and therefore require other things from the weapon.
For me, the thing that killed my enthusiasm more than anything else was the over-engineered point-scoring mechanism (all the beginners had to start with foil). I could have gotten over only counting torso hits, but having a mechanism that constantly stopped the bout with any mishit and that could easily get knocked out of alignment by mishits meant the entire sport had essentially been changed to fit this annoying little buzzer, when it was only supposed to be a tool to make refereeing easier.
Also I was confused by the pistol grip at first, then I took a HEMA class in Spanish rapier and it started to make sense, because the grip we were taught (index on ricasso, middle-finger through loop, fourth and little fingers on handle) puts the hand in a very similar position to a pistol grip.
+Metatron I'm going to do a response to this video in my channel. I understand that you speak spanish as well then i'm going to do it in that language because I could explain better my experience. If you think you could not understand me (and if you see this comment) please tell me as soon as you can to do my video in english.
My Spanish is still rather basic so I think English would be mostly appreciated ;)
Very good then friend, I'll do my best.
You know I'm uploading the video right now but I'm feeling afraid of people start saying bad things about me or something and make me look like and idiot for my english or something I said. It's that normal? XD
I really like your videos Metatron, but seriously this one is stupid because of what you said about foil fencing. I practiced foil fencing during three years with my father (who practiced almost since thirty year and did national competions here in France) and it seems you completely missed the point of foil fencing. The priority system of foil fencing is in fact a way to simulate the risk of being killed during the fight. Basically if you hit your opponent when he has the priority you don't have the point, because to obtain the priority he succesfully put himself in a dominant situation. At this point trying to hit him is useless because you are already exposed, at best your going to wound him before being killed and you should try to put yourself in a situation where attacking isn't a 50/50 percent chance to get killed ; so get back the priority. When your doing sport you don't think about all that because your life isn't at risk so the priority system is a way to avoid what happen in sword fencing ; trying to hit your opponent at all cost, because it's not a problem if he hit you as long as you hit him first.
Exactly. None of these HEMA guys know that. With all the equipment, nobody has any reason to avoid attacks or parry. With right of way, people have a reason to defend themselves and then attack. HEMA users have all of that protective equipment and no compelling reason to defend from double hits like in epee.
"HEMA has no compelling reason to defend from double hits" LOL
Leandro Gabriel Watch out for misquoting people. You can't use quotes like that unless I said exactly that. And yes, they don't. With a double hit, what happens? Both get a point? You have less reason to avoid or block an attack if you can just score a second hit after they hit you.
Bryan Wheelock you never want to take any hits, armor or not, the armor is never an excuse for lack of guard but a safeguard against holes in your defense, and even then it's never encouraged to allow an enemy to get past your defense, clearly you've never experienced hema before, but regardless I hate most of these anyways as I prefer full contact, simulate real battles and the life or death mindset you get from them, the community. I'm uses authentic armor and proper weapons recreated in a heavy dense foam, while having no cutting potential they have all the weight and impact of a real weapon, if you're not in armor, you'll bruise hard.
Solignox , His commentary on foil fencing was born purely from ignorance and likely an uninformed bias. Foil fencing is the closest thing to actual deadly weapons combat that exists, unlike the "cutting sword" sports.
Now I wonder... Could you practice HEMA in a static form? I'm a wheelchair fencer and I would highly appreciate your humble opinion on this topic.
Italiano: Mi stavo chiedendo... potresti praticare la scherma storica in maniera statica? Sono uno schermidore in carrozzina e vorrei la tua umile opinione sull'argomento.
Foil does teach you a lot of crucial point work, in fact it was extremely useful for my progress with military sabre in HEMA, as most treatises strongly advise to study foil as well.
Despite your best efforts, I was offended by your apparent disgust at foil. I don't do it for sword fighting. I'm not an idiot. I enjoy it as a sport, similar to one who enjoys football or tennis or soccer or whatever.
And you are entitled to be offended. Its your right.Just don't expect anyone to care you are offended, that's not your right.
Olympic fencing is basically a game of tag with long stiff wires. I don't think it should be called "fencing" anymore.
Well you know nothing about Olympic fencing apparently.
He probably didn't pay much attention to the video and means foil.
All Olympic Fencing is wimpy, Sable, Sword and Foil.
Sure it looks pretty, but so does a headless statue in a museum, doesn't mean it's of any use.
It has a use. As entertainment, as a sport, or just as physical exercise. Its not the same use it use to have but the same could be said of most swords. Soldiers dont use swords anymore but that dosent make them useless.
The only difference is that you're hitting people with larger pieces of metal in hema
Metatron, I can't wait to see The Gripping Adventures of Space Walrus!
I loved the part where you talked about learning to cut without being cut it was really eye opening.
You have a very odd accent. It sounds like a mixture between West-mids type English accent and a Eastern European Accent.
Have you lived in Italy all your live or have you moved around a bit?
I would consider it a mix between a southern English accent and a southern Italian accent as I am an Italian who has lived in England for a while (and in Japan but I have no Japanese influence in my English) so you weren't too far off :)
My accent is non-rhotic and in terms of pronunciation of single words it's southern English, but the intonation is were my Italian accent comes back, so this is why you feel it to be odd.
Normally when I go back and visit England my intonation goes back to English, but while living in Italy I am surrounded by Italians so my English does get influenced by that "melody"
It's amazing how accents and pronunciations of a majority influence the people around them.
Thank you for replying!
Tell me if I am wrong. You speak fast as Italian. So your english looks faster than average. As a French Canadian it is the same(even for people from france) we have a dialect that use some contractions. Like when we say: Il y a. We actualy say Ya. So we speak fast.
To me, he sounds like an Italian with very good English, enough to do the proper accent, but sometimes his native accento bleeds through. :)
I think that you should be cautious of critiicising masters or teachers without fully understanding their methodology. Frankly if a person with limited martial arts experience started criticising me or the the tools of my trade, I'd get pretty uncooperative too.
Contentious statement: Foil is a good basis for learning longsword.
The stances are so different that your foil habits will hardly interfere with longsword at all. (they will interfere with rapier a bit more).
Distance and timing carry over more or less seamlessly.
The right of way system is quite similar to Liechtenauer's Vor and Nach, and to Meyer's provoker, taker and hitter concepts.
Foil will make your point control good enough to actually hit with your thrusts.
It certainly wouldn't hurt. I'd argue that doing foil for two years then doing longsword for two years won't make you as good as simply doing longsword for four years would, but if you can do both at the same time then yeah it's probably beneficial.
Whats the difference between epee, foil and saber? :(
They are completely different sports with different weapons, rules and tactics and even different Olympic events. Epee is a duelling weapon. You can only stab (hits with the side of the blade don't count). You can hit them anywhere, from the head to the fingers to the toes. Literally anywhere. If you both hit at the same time you both score a point. Foil was developed as a training weapon. You can only stab like an epee, but only hits to the torso (i.e. not the arms, not the head and not the legs). You can't both hit at the same time - if this happens you use something called priority. Basically if I attack, you parry and then we both hit, you get the point. If we both attack at the same time, no-one gets the point. Sabre is developed from a cavalry sword. It is a cutting weapon (i.e. hits with the edge of the blade count) that can hit anywhere from the waist up (apart from the hands, but the arms count). Like foil you can't both hit at the same time, you use priority to decide who gets the point.
You will NEVER (well, we might have tried when drunk) get someone using an epee against a sabre or a foil against an epee. Both fencers will use the same weapon when fencing.
Have a look at this:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fencing#Equipment
Or this:
www.atlanticfencing.com/about-2/epee-foil-saber/
Or this:
academyoffencingmasters.com/blog/fencing-rules-for-novice-parents-differences-for-foil-epee-and-sabre/
Hope this helps!
Foil fencing is actually the preeminent sword dueling style. Thinking foil fighting is a joke or just sport exposes ignorance and intellectual laziness. This is not typical for you, so I'm compelled to conclude it's due to irrational bias.
The real problem is that professional instructors in the foil discipline are often not well informed about the topic either…
Epee is combat and makes me feel like a thug...
Sabre is perfect for theatrical fighting and makes me feel like a magnificient bastard.
Foil is art for the sake of art and makes me feel like the fearie king, embodiment of grace and precision.
My focus obviously lies on a different aspect of fencing than yours and I much, much preferred the latter two to just going in and starting to stab, trying to make my light light up first... epee is just kind of brutal, like a Wanderlei Silva led MMA training facility...
Have you made a video of you actually performing fencing? Can you start up your own Hema club? I'd join.. if I were on the same continent.
This was 6 yrs. ago. What do you think now?
Not entirely sure why you expected to be using medieval arming swords in fencing.. please explain to me how you could have possibly made that error. -_-
That's easily 99% of HEMA guys who trash sport fencing, a bunch of neckbeards wanting to live out their wet dreams of taking the holy land finding a sporterised version of Renaissance dueling swordsmanship.
Im sure the fencing instructor was happy having an ''expert'' like you in the course telling him whats proper fencing. And refusing to fence with a pistol crip? If you want play with swords thats fine but you should have a bit more respect to your teacher in the course. Sicilians took home three olympic medals in the RIO olympic games, so I think they know what they are doing down there.
The people who care are those that enjoy it, and the nations that have won medals because of it. You call it a silly game which is your opinion. Still if a silly game gets people active with both their body and mind, then that is a good thing no?
The great thing with fencing is that there is a lot an amateur or late comer to the sport can do.
She wasted her energy and attention to an ephemeral ... youtuber.
Any olimpic fencer can easily defeat this moron in any sword game he thinks he knows. I did hema and historical fencing for years and recently went to foil, I can tell it is much more practical than any other type of fencing and the level of olimpic champ is unreachable unless you start from very childhood.
so many buzz words, he must be a true (neck-bearded) warrior!
@The Only True Witch-King
Lmao what kind of neckbeard fantasy shit is this?
Like you've ever even seen a blade bigger than a kitchen knife, don't act like you're a badass because you watched some HEMA TH-cam videos.
what is the music in the beginning of your videos pls? i can't find it
There is a dedicated video, "my intro and outro music"
Metatron that music is just beautiful. I really love it.
To be honest Raff, these coments are always gonna happen. You might consider putting it in the description of your future videos.
sorry for mt lack of dedication to this channel :/ i should have known
No worries mate
I have more than a decade in each of fencing, kendo and Pekiti Tirsia Kali (Filipino martial arts). The first two are clearly sports and the last a study of efficient ways to meet out death. Kali is a blade art, with the training principles equally applicable to sword, knife, stick and empty hands. It's goal is to dispatch the enemy quickly and to return you home safely. While there is less than lethal sparring the mindset is contra sport. My interest in kendo and fencing faded as I aged and my athleticism waned. My mind was still very sharp and my sport lethality was there, but the joint strain and lack of applicability of skills toward self defense dulled my zeal. The lethality of kali is more aging friendly and the use of an edged weapons lessons the need for maximum power and instead focuses on speed and accuracy. Nevertheless; all combat requires a sense of distance and timing and thus the years I spent in kendo and fencing have given me a combat sense way beyond my years of study. My body has aged considerably but my brain remains sharp and my ability to read an opponents intention is still strong. I consider myself, at best, a lower midlevel kali practitioner, but the blade skills I have learned give me substantial confidence that my array of perfectly legal pocket accessories are likely to keep me safe where ever I go. Takeaway - time spent learning any weapon art is not wasted. If you want to learn practical self defense applications, sport arts need to be set aside for those systems designed for real combat.
Is there anything you don't have experience with? hahah 😜
L iam - your mom!.... wait, that is not how you use this joke
L iam good question
KaptajnKaffe lmao (don't use that joke again, you don't want to get in trouble by sensitive butt hurt children lol)
I like your videos... But it is clear here you do not understand Olympic fencing or its roots. Foil is a killing weapon, originally, designed specifically to be as easy as possible to pierce skin and organs in a duel with specific rules. Epee was born later of a time when death duelling was seen as barbaric, and ot became about first blood. Sabre is a recreation of horse back duelling. Those reason are why you have specific target areas and the "aristocratic" nature of the duel is why there were so many rules. Rapier fencing is a completely different animal, as is medieval sword fencing (like the arming sword).
Giving up on it because you were dissapointed that you didn't get an arming sword? You should have known that going in.
I do hate pistol grips, though.
Saber is actually based on foot duels, not horseback. Even though the target area makes sense for a cavalryman, the lack of well, horses, makes it foot based.
100% agree, I went to a fencing club for a couple of years, I found foil so restrictive, like why am I only allowed to poke them? I really didn't enjoy it and the thing I did to take advantage of the "only the point counts" rule only got me shouted at. I remember enjoying the few times I was allowed to do sabre, found it so liberating and found myself learning more as their was a higher chance of hitting someone by using different ways of moving the blade. I was crap and stopped eventually, as I really didn't enjoy it and found it stressful to only do the moves which grade 1's were taught (I only ever got to a grade 2 XD).
Technically, foil is not a toy, it's a training aid for a short sword, which is a real actual lightweight weapon that was designed to be portable in cities and was carried around by the nobility. In fact, the nobility was obliged to wear a weapon. That weapon was supposed to be used against a guy protected by metal plates by poking in the holes in the armor. Also, the "ignoring the threat" thing also had its purpose in the training. It was supposed to help the learner to acquire the proper technique that is useful in combat. I'm assuming that the idea was: in a real combat, the fear of being cut will naturally come back. But applying good technique will make your hits more lethal, parries more effective and that advantage is what counts in a real combat. Look at Sabre for example: just scratch the opponent's arm and the lamp goes on. Or Epee: you touch opponent's toenail and you score the point - that only counts in 19'th century duels, but has nothing to do with combat. So, in my humble opinion, modern foil is closest of all three to what you need to prepare for a real combat on small swords. Of course, except for the flicks.