Loved this for several reasons. With the 6 piece bonus, you have all the time in the world to make sure you judge right after a swing and always hit while both are up. Both of the weakauras are perfect!!
This is great. And extremely informative. I might add that it’s better to always start with Martyr because as you come around through an extended rotation cycle when you’re pressing wings and trinkets and getting procs ect it’s always better to spend 60 mana on the re up than 210 mana on the SoC. Also by doing this you’re always guaranteed to get SoM proc dmg off melee swing as you’re learning the rotation and timing for SoC double judge.
Thank you! Hmm interesting take.. if mana is a concern you can use seal of command rank 1 though. And usually you shouldn't have any issues with mana with the boots rune! Or are you suggesting all this only for beginners to get into seal twisting?
@@LaserfocusWoW More or less learning the rotation. Most ret Paladins seal twist success rate is well below 70% for hitting the actual metrics required for it to be better than exo spam. Anything above 90% hit rate on your twists is where twisting just crushes. Max Rank Command should always be used because while the twist component works on any rank the damage of the judgement for the double judge is affected. Plus if you don’t take max you devalue Guarded. Guarded by the Light is awesome but because our gear is so poorly optimized (zero intellect on anything) you’re always redlining the spec if you’re playing it to its maximum capacity. Any mana saving mechanics are vital. When you get to the point of it being second nature and muscle memory is doing all of the work for you in conjunction with your swing timer it gets very cyclic in the rotation meaning every pass through the rotation is switching between double judgment setup with a single filler and a double filler after refresh. Back and forth endlessly. It’s an incredible playstyle I love it so much!
Ahh got it yep! Didn't know those metrics about seal twisting, but it did take me a bit to learn AND I still haven't seen a single paladin in any group, raid or 5-man who was seal twisting, even with a heavy hitter weapon. Yes, I have noticed if I cast a few exorcisms without the crusader strike proc, I'm outta mana asap. And totally agree that it's muscle memory and I noticed it myself as I'm getting better and better it comes naturally and I'm liking it more and more. I actually started off hating seal twisting cause it seems gimmicky and based on a bug and felt like "exploiting", which somehow, everyone seems to be on board with... BUT... I also remember thinking the other day as I was raiding MC and saw 3-4 hits hitting for 2-3K each "yeah I'm not playing anything other than seal twisting ret again in SoD". Lol. Definitely insanely rewarding when you nail it down and see those massive hits, especially with windfury being raid-wide now.
At 6:23 when u say “sometimes bug” its not a bug. When you parry an attack, you “recharge” your attack auto timer. After a successful parry, the defender's "swing timer" is reduced by 40% of your weapon speed (or even reset), unless this would result in a reduction to less than 20% of your swing time remaining.
Great guide and good explanation! surveillant has really done a master class on wowhead. Ive been tinkering with exo macro, and added /cast aura mastery before you cast exo to have that bonus dmg
i get that, to prevent swing timer resets from druid's wild strikes, we add /stopattack to the filler melee abilities. but why judgement also needs /stopattack? as judgement is a magic ability and it wont trigger the wild strikes.
Keep in Mind your priority rotation differs depending in which seal you are in between AA´s, going from a situation where you are benefitting from wild strikes. This is also why the article shoves down Exorcism further down the prio list, because it isnt affected by Wild strikes. bein in SoM your priority would be Judgement (Double Judge)>Divine Storm>Crusader Strike>Exorcism, while being in SoC it would be Judgement>Exorcism>Divine Storm>Crusader Strike. Of course the weapon you are using is still a relevant factor to your prio list, we´re on the same page there
Hello, is the double judgement still possible to perform? I've tried it a lot of times like shown in the video but only the judgement of the previous seal goes off not both of them.
Hello! It's not as necessary anymore because you have entire 6 seconds when you can just keep swinging.. but it shouldn't hurt to use those macros anyway since a swing timer is almost 4 seconds anyway, so you aren't doing anything.
if you sort comments by "oldest" you will see the 2 weakauras i posted, i dont remember name of the swing timer one, and the one with 4 spells in middle is my custom made one
Very nice video learned a lot from it. However the double judge doesn't work for me. (I dont have the tier bonus, so I'm trying within the 0.4s window) Can you confirm this is still working? I have tried everything, the judgement only uses one of my seals (even when there is both active)
Video is great and with so much depth. I do have some questions thou. So after castin second seal within a window of remaning 0.4 seconds before next mellee swing, how much time is left to press Judgement keybind to get both seals to be judged? Is that possible? Or I didn't get this? Also is it possible to make macro to cast judgement to judge both seals like a sequence? Why need of pressing Esc key (10:27) after you cast SoC if macro has /stopattack command?
thank you! 1. after you cast the 2nd seal, you have 0.4 seconds to cast judgement so both judgements go off. Yes you can set a macro for judgement right after seal but Id test it and make sure that the seal gets triggered before judgement. if you have any gcd, this macro will make judgement cast first so be careful.. 2. i hit escape after seal because the seals startattack macro, not stopattack. the filler abilities have stopattack macro, but to ensure you benefit from both seals at once, the seals have startattack macro hope that makes sense
hi my friend sorry havent gotten into exodin too much, id check some guides on that , i think its just spam all abilities whenever they come on cd, prio exorcism
I Dont see link to the weak aura am i blind? also 5:45 u mention some addon to track the skills but cxouldsnt undserstand what u were saying would be nice to have link for both said addon and teh weaaura
Which part did you need clarity on/didnt understand? The addon is called "weakauras" and you can copy and paste the "code" into your own weakaura once you download the addon. I couldn't add both codes in one comment, so it had to be in two and I cant pin 2 comments - so just scroll through the comments look at the "oldest comments" and copy the code from both comments into your account
@LaserfocusWoW ohhhhh so tye code was separated into different comments thought they were separate weak auras lol. Is the part that shows what skills you are using side scrolling om screen part of the WeskAura ir different addon? Ty for clarity
well they are two separate weak aura codes - one for the swing timer and another for the 4 spells there in front. oh yeah the spells shown on right side are the "trufigcd" addon, i only use it to show spells im using
i must be dumb cause i still dont follow. what are the 3 segments on the weakaura at 17:10 i get u use the 2nd seal right after green and finals segment but that are the otehr 2 segments is the 1st segment the window you have to use a "filler" and 2nd iis ur GCD? then final 3rd segmetn when u cast 2nd seal and itsd window to twist? EDIT: also with BWL now out does rotation change at all with T2 2 piedce bonus where judgment doesnt consume seals anymore.
im having trouble with the double judge. i start off in command, exit combat, use marty seal with start attack macro, and immediately hit judgement, but im only getting 1 judgement off. any reason why? thanks ! good guide btw..
@@surveillant got it, thanks! i now actually have the 6s T1. Do I continue with the same seal twisting rotation (1 filler inbetween each twist) or does the rotation change now? I feel like i can do 2 fillers in between each twist now but I haven't started testing it yet
@atmosfere_x_protagonist with 6p t1 you switch to what's called seal stacking. It's covered in the wowhead guide. You simply keep both seals up for every melee attack, then resume pressing your spells in order.
Nop because you have the time frame of 6 entire seconds where you dont need to seal twist at all anymore, its all automatic. assuming you have both seals up though
Wouldn't it be easier to have the start attack in just one of the seal macros? Then you wouldn't have to stop the autoattack in the opener and you would also have enough time infight to reactivate one seal and only start with it in the second one, which has the autoattack.
If you can be quick about it and get the 2nd seal off within 0.4 seconds of approaching a mob + judgement then sure. but sometimes thats easier said than done especially with positioning. so why not just be double sure?
Hold on, they made a set bonus so that you have 6 sec to seal twist into something else instead of the .4 seconds? Wtf that defeats the purpose of what made seal twisting fun
@williamlampke8083 ... so ... do the mindless, less points of interaction, because of... tradition? Or take inspiration from wotlk paladin with art of war procs add an instant exo (which aesthetically feels like adding a smite of holy energy to your already critted attack) ... sure let's not have more interactivity points for fun...
Actually the best video for this right now, very informative
Thank you very much John!!
Loved this for several reasons. With the 6 piece bonus, you have all the time in the world to make sure you judge right after a swing and always hit while both are up. Both of the weakauras are perfect!!
thank you my friend! and indeed haha much easier
Thank you for this. Video was very much needed!
Thank you Woozy!!
This is great. And extremely informative. I might add that it’s better to always start with Martyr because as you come around through an extended rotation cycle when you’re pressing wings and trinkets and getting procs ect it’s always better to spend 60 mana on the re up than 210 mana on the SoC.
Also by doing this you’re always guaranteed to get SoM proc dmg off melee swing as you’re learning the rotation and timing for SoC double judge.
Thank you! Hmm interesting take.. if mana is a concern you can use seal of command rank 1 though. And usually you shouldn't have any issues with mana with the boots rune! Or are you suggesting all this only for beginners to get into seal twisting?
@@LaserfocusWoW More or less learning the rotation. Most ret Paladins seal twist success rate is well below 70% for hitting the actual metrics required for it to be better than exo spam. Anything above 90% hit rate on your twists is where twisting just crushes.
Max Rank Command should always be used because while the twist component works on any rank the damage of the judgement for the double judge is affected. Plus if you don’t take max you devalue Guarded.
Guarded by the Light is awesome but because our gear is so poorly optimized (zero intellect on anything) you’re always redlining the spec if you’re playing it to its maximum capacity. Any mana saving mechanics are vital.
When you get to the point of it being second nature and muscle memory is doing all of the work for you in conjunction with your swing timer it gets very cyclic in the rotation meaning every pass through the rotation is switching between double judgment setup with a single filler and a double filler after refresh. Back and forth endlessly.
It’s an incredible playstyle I love it so much!
Ahh got it yep! Didn't know those metrics about seal twisting, but it did take me a bit to learn AND I still haven't seen a single paladin in any group, raid or 5-man who was seal twisting, even with a heavy hitter weapon.
Yes, I have noticed if I cast a few exorcisms without the crusader strike proc, I'm outta mana asap.
And totally agree that it's muscle memory and I noticed it myself as I'm getting better and better it comes naturally and I'm liking it more and more.
I actually started off hating seal twisting cause it seems gimmicky and based on a bug and felt like "exploiting", which somehow, everyone seems to be on board with... BUT... I also remember thinking the other day as I was raiding MC and saw 3-4 hits hitting for 2-3K each "yeah I'm not playing anything other than seal twisting ret again in SoD". Lol. Definitely insanely rewarding when you nail it down and see those massive hits, especially with windfury being raid-wide now.
Dude thanks for the vid this is really well done.
Thank you so much Tom, really appreciate that
ive been seal twisting since BC when it was first a possibility but never did i realize u could double judge, thats so dirty 😍
indeed!!
The double judge is new! It recently was discovered after SoD Launched
At 6:23 when u say “sometimes bug” its not a bug. When you parry an attack, you “recharge” your attack auto timer. After a successful parry, the defender's "swing timer" is reduced by 40% of your weapon speed (or even reset), unless this would result in a reduction to less than 20% of your swing time remaining.
thanks for explaining. although sometimes the swing timer completely stops or stays at 0 for a while
Great guide and good explanation! surveillant has really done a master class on wowhead.
Ive been tinkering with exo macro, and added /cast aura mastery before you cast exo to have that bonus dmg
Thank you! That could work, haven't played exo much though, can't tell yah haha
I see no weak auras links...
super helpful video
Thank you Uka!
i get that, to prevent swing timer resets from druid's wild strikes, we add /stopattack to the filler melee abilities. but why judgement also needs /stopattack? as judgement is a magic ability and it wont trigger the wild strikes.
Keep in Mind your priority rotation differs depending in which seal you are in between AA´s, going from a situation where you are benefitting from wild strikes. This is also why the article shoves down Exorcism further down the prio list, because it isnt affected by Wild strikes. bein in SoM your priority would be Judgement (Double Judge)>Divine Storm>Crusader Strike>Exorcism, while being in SoC it would be Judgement>Exorcism>Divine Storm>Crusader Strike. Of course the weapon you are using is still a relevant factor to your prio list, we´re on the same page there
Interesting, didn't know divine storm benefits from windfury!
Hello, is the double judgement still possible to perform? I've tried it a lot of times like shown in the video but only the judgement of the previous seal goes off not both of them.
Not anymore sadly without T1 6pc bonus
where is the link to WA?
Thank you for the guide, quick question: with the 6-piece T1 bonus: Do I still use the stop attack macros on my fillers? ty!
Hello! It's not as necessary anymore because you have entire 6 seconds when you can just keep swinging.. but it shouldn't hurt to use those macros anyway since a swing timer is almost 4 seconds anyway, so you aren't doing anything.
What’s the name of the weakaura addon you use? I don’t see it in description
if you sort comments by "oldest" you will see the 2 weakauras i posted, i dont remember name of the swing timer one, and the one with 4 spells in middle is my custom made one
Very nice video learned a lot from it.
However the double judge doesn't work for me. (I dont have the tier bonus, so I'm trying within the 0.4s window)
Can you confirm this is still working? I have tried everything, the judgement only uses one of my seals (even when there is both active)
so stopattack macros are only without 6 pieces of the T1 set, with them i dont need the stopattack macros ?
Had no idea you could double judge. Why aren't more people talking about this?! This is why I suck.
thats exactly what im wondering, not a single video covers this lol
do you think this would work on pvp also? Or in pvp it is better to use conventional ways?
Video is great and with so much depth. I do have some questions thou.
So after castin second seal within a window of remaning 0.4 seconds before next mellee swing, how much time is left to press Judgement keybind to get both seals to be judged? Is that possible?
Or I didn't get this?
Also is it possible to make macro to cast judgement to judge both seals like a sequence?
Why need of pressing Esc key (10:27) after you cast SoC if macro has /stopattack command?
thank you!
1. after you cast the 2nd seal, you have 0.4 seconds to cast judgement so both judgements go off.
Yes you can set a macro for judgement right after seal but Id test it and make sure that the seal gets triggered before judgement. if you have any gcd, this macro will make judgement cast first so be careful..
2. i hit escape after seal because the seals startattack macro, not stopattack. the filler abilities have stopattack macro, but to ensure you benefit from both seals at once, the seals have startattack macro
hope that makes sense
can you tell me which Macro you have for your Judgment ? because in your Video you dont show it :)
What’s the play style with Exodin build if you have full T1 set?
hi my friend sorry havent gotten into exodin too much, id check some guides on that , i think its just spam all abilities whenever they come on cd, prio exorcism
Good vid - the link to swing timer WA get pulled?
ty man, should still be there, sort by "oldest comments"
About the double judgment. Are you hitting the second seal key and judgment key at the same time or right after each other?
i hit seal first and then judgement immediately, if done within 0.4 seconds it works
I Dont see link to the weak aura am i blind? also 5:45 u mention some addon to track the skills but cxouldsnt undserstand what u were saying
would be nice to have link for both said addon and teh weaaura
Which part did you need clarity on/didnt understand?
The addon is called "weakauras" and you can copy and paste the "code" into your own weakaura once you download the addon.
I couldn't add both codes in one comment, so it had to be in two and I cant pin 2 comments - so just scroll through the comments look at the "oldest comments" and copy the code from both comments into your account
@LaserfocusWoW ohhhhh so tye code was separated into different comments thought they were separate weak auras lol.
Is the part that shows what skills you are using side scrolling om screen part of the WeskAura ir different addon? Ty for clarity
well they are two separate weak aura codes - one for the swing timer and another for the 4 spells there in front.
oh yeah the spells shown on right side are the "trufigcd" addon, i only use it to show spells im using
@LaserfocusWoW ahh ok ty. Dunno what I'd did wrong but when I tried to import it failed guess didn't copy whole code?
its possible, did you copy everything even when clicking "read more" in the comment?
i must be dumb cause i still dont follow. what are the 3 segments on the weakaura at 17:10 i get u use the 2nd seal right after green and finals segment but that are the otehr 2 segments
is the 1st segment the window you have to use a "filler" and 2nd iis ur GCD? then final 3rd segmetn when u cast 2nd seal and itsd window to twist?
EDIT: also with BWL now out does rotation change at all with T2 2 piedce bonus where judgment doesnt consume seals anymore.
dont think its a bug when you attack faster than normal on the hit swing, its a reset based on parry etc.
with 6pc t1, do we need 'Preventing Swing Timer Resets' with stopattack macro?
nop since you have 6 seconds now, swing all you want
Hey! Sorry I know this is an old video but I don't see the WA for the seal twist!
hi mate please click on "oldest comments" and it should be the first two comments published
Do you ever start a pull on a mob with exorcism since it has a longer range than judgement then judge crusader for long Single Target fights?
yep 100%
im having trouble with the double judge. i start off in command, exit combat, use marty seal with start attack macro, and immediately hit judgement, but im only getting 1 judgement off. any reason why? thanks ! good guide btw..
It only works with the T1 6pc bonus now since BWL released.
@@surveillant got it, thanks! i now actually have the 6s T1. Do I continue with the same seal twisting rotation (1 filler inbetween each twist) or does the rotation change now? I feel like i can do 2 fillers in between each twist now but I haven't started testing it yet
@atmosfere_x_protagonist with 6p t1 you switch to what's called seal stacking. It's covered in the wowhead guide. You simply keep both seals up for every melee attack, then resume pressing your spells in order.
What commands are in your Judgment macro?
same as for other fillers, #showtooltip, /cast judgement /stopattack
are you using /stopattack macro in your video? i see your auto attacks keep going even after you press the filler abiliteis.
yep i am using the macro! hmm can you show an example im not seeing where the attack keeps going
@@LaserfocusWoW never mind, misunderstood it.
Do you still need stopattack macro on all the spells with 6pc t1?
Nop because you have the time frame of 6 entire seconds where you dont need to seal twist at all anymore, its all automatic. assuming you have both seals up though
hey, is it possible that judge 2 Seals isnt possible after the last patch ?
Maybe
Man having to hit escape reallllllly made me not wanna play my pally anymore...That's an insane requirement.
Wouldn't it be easier to have the start attack in just one of the seal macros? Then you wouldn't have to stop the autoattack in the opener and you would also have enough time infight to reactivate one seal and only start with it in the second one, which has the autoattack.
If you can be quick about it and get the 2nd seal off within 0.4 seconds of approaching a mob + judgement then sure. but sometimes thats easier said than done especially with positioning. so why not just be double sure?
Gonna need you to go ahead and put links for the addon you use and the weak auras...
lmao 😂 sort by "oldest comments"
and where is the addon linked?
I don't think the wa bugs out, it's probably faster because you parried 👍
Ohhh good catch, but sometimes it does disappear or gets stuck at a certain point
How viable is this in PvP? With all the movement and every spell has stop attack.
Hold on, they made a set bonus so that you have 6 sec to seal twist into something else instead of the .4 seconds? Wtf that defeats the purpose of what made seal twisting fun
i agree and yeah lol they made a whole playstyle out of it now
PRIORITY SPELLS WEAKAURA:
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ty
SWING TIMER WEAKAURA:
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how do u use this? cant see full thin and when try to import nothing happens
I just don't see the appeal in MAYBE hitting an extra time with command... it's so unreliable...
Yep thats seal twisting, more RNG based but better for parsing if it hits especially with windfury
lol reg dps in classic is just seal of command and judgment
@williamlampke8083 ... so ... do the mindless, less points of interaction, because of... tradition?
Or take inspiration from wotlk paladin with art of war procs add an instant exo (which aesthetically feels like adding a smite of holy energy to your already critted attack) ... sure let's not have more interactivity points for fun...
@@chainclaw07 ye ye ye I’m just saying people are used to seal of command rng procing if they played it on classic already
I got the libram for crusader strike to fix my mana problems