Ethical Honey? Can Vegans Eat Honey? Does it Even Matter?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 24 มี.ค. 2015
- Is honey vegan? I was recently asked about my position on honey as a vegan and I promised I would cover it in a video. If you haven't seen my video "Do insects feel pain?" please watch that one first: • Do Insects Feel Pain? ...
References
www.peta.org/about-peta/faq/wh...
www.vegetus.org/honey/honey.htm
www.honeybeesuite.com/monday-m...
www.beesource.com/forums/showt...
www.naturalbeekeeping.com.au/n...
www.elephantjournal.com/2012/0...
www.veganoutreach.org/faq_guid...
www.satyamag.com/sept05/greger...
blog.oup.com/2011/11/bug-pain/
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My dad was a beekeeper and he spoiled them rotten and didn't clip the queen's wings.
I do the same, but then I have to listen to some vegans saying beekeeping is bad because someone brought African bees 50 years ago... As if I have anything to do with that, and there were no advancements in plant farming with side effects.
" They are even helping to solve the human overpopulation issue!" :D True that!
@@lvt2050 That part was so savage XD
Of course he would. Why would he mistreat them and possibly kill them? that would be losing his profit
Valken a lot of vegans eat honey though and support small local bee keepers
I am vegan and pro-honey (when from local ethical small scale producers). Anyone not understanding how these bee keepers are beneficial to us as vegans are pretty ignorant.
Yes I know the definition of vegan. But sometimes we need to look past the definition and look at the greater picture.
I could not have said it better Jacob!
Yes, I agree, and I take honey to cure hay fever, which it has. I wonder sometimes, I mean, somebody decides to turn vegan for primarily their own reasons and makes the decision based on either ethics, health and/or environmental sustainability. We can add aesthetics to that list too. A bit later on, possibly prompted by endless interrogation from friends and family they research veganism further and by definition they learn that they now can't have honey. Let's face it, it was not something that troubled them before, why all of a sudden now? OK, if somebody eats no meat but only bacon then this declassifies them as a vegetarian in the same way that only drinking whisky declassifies you as a teetotaller. I suppose if vegan means no honey then it means no honey. Seems clear enough. But these are definitions, classifications, (when humanity is already divided enough). I wonder why that person then decides to forego honey, is it because of strict adherence to the meaning of a single lexical item and one word of many in the English language (whose meaning is far from categoric anyway)? It could be, people are obsessed with ticking boxes. (I suppose it comes from school programming, ticks = good boy/girl). If their decision is however based on any of the above, why would this preclude honey from their diet? Are vegans merely upholding a dictionary definition and obsessed with classifying themselves correctly, or do they genuinely believe that an apiary is on the same level as a slaughterhouse, or that the cultivation of honey is akin to the destruction of the rainforests for cattle grazing, or that honey is baaad for them, etc? When I hear of a new vegan bemoaning the fact they can't now have Crunchy Nut Cornflakes I wonder if they have their own *good* reason for this or are they just trying to keep the lexicographers happy.
Good,, Honey is a very special food,,,,, if others learned MORE about raw honey,,, it would show you cannot Substitute ANYTHING for honey,,,,,, The honey is a medicine,,,,,,,,,,,
Then you're not vegan! Simple as that!
MsBrutus64 this is not constructive or beneficial for veganism.
If beekeeping is done right (not clipping the queen's wings, taking only the excess honey), isn't it only a good thing? bees are hugely important in our ecosystem, and ethical beekeeping helps them from becoming extinct, and taking several plants and animals with them?
I'm aiming to become a vegan, but I would keep eating honey, as I get it from a local beekeeper and I know he does it ethically as I've seen the hives. If someone thinks that I'm cruel for doing that, then people really have tiny problems in their lives
Then you're vegetarian. And at the end you described vegans.
There's vegan honey! But I think it's like you said, eating the excess honey from ethical bee keepers. I honestly hate all of the vegan sweeteners like maple syrup and agave nectar. Local honey is great for the environment and helps with allergies!
Obviously you're not cruel for doing that , it's just most of the honey does not come from places like those, and therefore I think you would agree it's cruel then
All sounds more than reasonable.
@@valken666 So we should lump Julie in with those who consume eggs, and who more so consume scary dairy? Come on, she's 99% on your side. There can be too much of, "You're either with us, or you're against us" with Veganism.
There is a huge difference in the way bees are kept. In Germany, the average beekeeper is a retired man in his 70s, has maybe 3-5 hives and treats the bees like his pets. I know because I was a beekeeper myself for many years and was a member of the German Beekeepers Association.
Honey is a science just like oenology. There are huge differences regarding quality and the way honey is produced. Honey production on a large scale may be as problematic as most things are when done on a large scale.
I personally would not buy cheap honey from a supermarket. The way it has been produced is most likely disgusting and might be ethically problematic, and it may have been tampered with. If you just want a sweetener, buy some unrefined cane sugar or maple syrup.
Buying a good glass of honey is like buying a bottle of wine: You want to know something about the beekeeper, the sort and origin of the honey (for instance, I love silver fir honey from the black forest, best qualities have a slightly green color) etc., and you want to sample it before you buy. You may have to pay some money (maybe 15-20€ per pound) but that does not matter if you are a connoisseur and consider honey a special treat for special moments.
@HighCarb Schwabe my Grandpa was a Beekeper, and he Bee where his babys! He loved them so mutch, he would NEVER harm one of his beloved pets. He talkek about his Bees like there where his children and Empthized with them. (He called the Queen the Mother, the Workers the dauthers etc..) He loved them and was sad, when one of his Queens died. He never was clipping wings or sutch.
And in Germany moust Honey is from Private Beekepers, unlike America. Thee are treated like Pets not like farm animals.
The cruel practizes of Wing clipping or straiving bees in extrem long transports, is NOT practized in Germany, but more in the gigantic Almond Plantages in Kalifornia USA, where moust of the Almonds in the World come from. when you drink Alpro-Almond Milk, you contribute to real Bee suffering. Not when you buy honey from local beekeepers who bees are pets for them
@HighCarb Schwabe In Germany new young beekeepers are wanted and searched for, because the old beekeepers are dying of. They have problems finding young peeople who like to keep bees. Its a real problem in Germany. Perhaps because old Germany often forget thinking about the fututre and dont giving his knowlage to the young generation. But everything dieing with them
OMFG!! are you for real. Bees are not pets.
I consume honey. My compassion does not extend to bugs.
+Derp Taderp my COMPASSION won't extend to you if i see you laying there fighting for your life haha
+Alexis Rose well if he is then I'll help him. Bros before hoes
No compassion neded. No insects was hurt in the process ;)
Alexis Rose jeez you sound insane
I'm not strictly vegan, but I actually learned about you from dogmatic vegans complaining about you. I disagree strongly with them and I'm more or less agreeing with you a 100%.
One thing to note though, I believe the focus on suffering of bees is a very important topic since bees are dying out in the wild and in captivity, partially due to colony collapse disorder. This is very important since we are all dependent on the pollination of bees.
There are a number of diseases the beekeepers are required to look out for. I intend to learn about beekeeping and do my own part by looking after a few hives. These truly are amazing creatures and we cannot afford to lose them.
For a quick summary this is the issue I'm talking about: /watch?v=GqA42M4RtxE
We also need to keep in mind the environment. Bee populations are severely decreasing, and insects like bees are probably one of the most important parts of maintaining the ecosystem. As an environmental scientist, I think that boycotting the bee industry would be a very bad thing for the planet, and most animals (because plants cannot produce fruits and such without bee pollination). However, I do think that most widely-produced honey is not ethical and does not have the best interests of the bees in mind. I think we should be pushing farmers to have completely ethical treatment of the bees, because I believe that we can produce honey while not causing any suffering. Maybe that makes me a bad vegan, but I'm just trying to do best by the planet and our animals.
+sarafritsch123 Does bee keeping help slow the decreasing honey bee population?
HeroinFrogg It definitely helps keep the honeybee population going, but on further research, I don't think its a long term solution as there are many other species of bee that are decreasing, but aren't used commercially. What would be best I think is to stop using pesticides, plant native flower that are healthy for the bees, and plant more variety of crops instead of large monocultures of crops. But that is change that will take time and be hard to push on the industry.
Most definitely, the irresponsible use of pesticides didn't stop with the US ban on DDT. At the very least they should remove nicotine from the pesticides.
But bee keeping doesn't really help the environment, because honey bees aren't the only species that pollinate. And by farming honey bees the other insects and birds compete with them. By bee farming an unnatural balance is created. We're better off letting them sort themselves out. (A lot of honey is imported as well, which nullifies the 'positive' pollination contribution.)
Considering the drastic depletion of honey bees, can't it be argued that beekeeping is filling that empty niche created by us killing off bees with pesticides? I am in no way arguing beekeeping is a permanent solution. I also would never suggest buying foreign or mass produced honey. With local beekeeping, you can ask or even tour the small farm. Ask, are you treating the bees with chemicals or unnecessary essential oils? Are you maiming any bees? Are you taking all the honey, to the point you feed them sugar water? With small scale beekeeping you can find compassion and almost a "breeding program" to help sustain the bee populations until pesticides can be phased out. There are many beekeepers that leave the bees to their own devices, not forcing any unhealthy growth or behaviors, or participating in "treating" bees, only removing honey that would inhibit egg laying room.
I LOVE how logical & open minded you are! One of my subscribers recommended your channel to me when I became vegan a few months ago, and I am SO grateful. I am a Philosophy major at University so super focused on analytical arguments, wanting to be proven wrong to be more in align with truth, always seeking truth etc. and your mind is the best at all of that! Your chill and peaceful demeanor along with your reasonableness is giving the best REP to the animal rights movements and I appreciate you so much! I made Vegan Bagels today and used honey and I felt a tinge guilty and so this is perfect in helping me think through if that goes along with my vegan beliefs. Love you!
Omg
@@palestinabaddie ?
FYI - people who keep bees are called 'apiarists,' and a 'farm' where bees are kept is called an 'apiary.' =)
+Erik - It depends :) If you are cultivating bees from the meliponines category ( Stingless bee ), mostly from hot countries, you are called a Meliponicultor
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stingless_bee
Marcelo Fernandes Garcia de Carvalho Huh! I didn't know that. =)
+Erik if you live in a country that has snow mostly probably you won't be able to have meliponines, but if you have the chance please do, they are amazing :)
Marcelo Fernandes Garcia de Carvalho Probably not, no - I live in southeastern USA.
or just... beekeeper? what is wrong with using normal language?
My grandfather is a bee keeper and he never kills the bees ./Where I live there are a lot of private bee keepers and I've never heard of anyone who kills their bees.There is no point in doing that because they don't need care during the winter
..Infact they sleep in their hives and they keep warm by constantly buzzing and you can actually hear them if you put your face next to the hive /or house /.. The hive is inside a square house .When they fill up the house with honey we place an additional container on top and we take it when its filled up .. all the rest of the honey that is inside the house we leave for the bees ... So in my opinion there IS such thing as a "vegan beekeeper" and a lot of confused people who have no idea of how bees are kept..
You're talking from experience - and it shows. Thank you. Beekeepers are very protective of their bees as you know. We are not monsters as PETA makes us out to bee...
You are truly a breath of fresh air in what seems a militant and uncompromising vegan community on youtube.
that's what i was going to say :)
+nonof urbizness She's amazing!
she isn't vegan that is why she is "a breath of fresh air"
No. Stop dividing people
TheNewHope howwwww is she not vegan. She literally said she doesn't consume honey. So in your militant strict vegan mind she's still a "true vegan". I'm vegan too but all of you make veganism sound crazy when you scream at people about how bees have feelings and they can't have anything with honey in it. Milk dairy and eggs I understand. Honey is where I draw the line. I don't consume it but I would if I was offered and I support anyone else's right to
We have bees (I'm not vegan, although I try to be as ethical as I can with the animal products I eat). I can assure you that commercial bee keeping is horrible and we hobby bee keepers hate it with a passion. But then again, if you eat almonds then you also support the abuse of bees, probably more so than just eating honey (which is a by-product of the pollinating industry).
As a bee keeper I can make sure my bees are healthy and happy. By happy I mean that they can do what bees would do in the wild. But unless you keep your own bees, there's no way of knowing how well the bees are kept.
One thing I can tell you is bees get really pissed off when someone tries to steal their honey (can you imagine working all summer and then having it all stolen in a few minutes?) what we do is we harvest a little at a time and the bees seem to react very positively to it.
We also make sure to brush all of the bees away before closing the hive so we don't crush any, but most bee keepers don't...
sorry honey, eating animal products isn't ethical "ever", murder cannot be humane
+jordonia sharrard did you even read my post? When did I ever mention killing bees? FYI, I don't kill my bees. I look after them, which bees need in our modern-day climate, as humans have made it very hard for bees to survive on their own.,.
In response to Jordonia, this dogmatic drivel is why people hate and ridicule vegans. And this is coming from a vegan. We'd do well to remember our goals before spewing nonsensical generalizations or calling those we wish to persuade to our cause murderers.
And in turn, if there are no bees left on the planet - how do people think the vast majority of plant-sourced foods are going to be fertilised? I find the whole dogmatic "thou shalt not _ever_ eat honey and dare to call yourself a vegan" attitude laughable, actually. And yes, perhaps I'm mildly biased because my Grandfather was an bee keeper (as a hobby).
my sister is a hobby bee farmer and yes she hates commercial bee keeping as well. she says their bees arent healthy and the farmers clear all the honey out leaving one for them to survive off. i just dont bother to buy it. their are so many other sweetners i just dont see the need
I've been to a few bee farms and bee's a sedated to actually get the honey, not wings clipped or whatever none sense PETA is brewing. As of now I have to say I have not found another plant based alternative to replace all of the health benefits of honey as far as when I get sick or sore throat honey and chamomile helps out a lot, it helps with my acid reflux, and other things too. Agave nectar just doesn't cut it.
+Rain Alt Model agave nectar is actually bad for you, it's like consuming corn syrup.
What about just sugar? There are other natural sweeteners that are healthy as well, like date syrup or coconut sugar
@@MimiTheHamster Those can be healthy but honey has unique antibiotic and wound-healing properties.
Wing clipping is an archaic process that was meant to prevent swarming, not for extracting honey. It has been replaced with artificial swarming which benefits both the keeper and the hive. Essentially it is splitting the colony into two halves so you end up with two hives instead of one. Wing clipping prevents the queens from leaving which is cruel, unnecessary and not even effective as the bees might just kill her and create a new queen and swarm. Smokers or water misters are used to manage bees whilst inspecting or removing frames and only minimally to prevent bees from being crushed. Neither harms the bees at all and allows inspections to take place safely which allows the keepers to access the health of the hive.
Hi, vegan for 8 months now. Growing up we had a small "Farm", 3 cows, approx. 20 chickens, pigs.. I saw chickens eat other chickens. I know it sounds gross and we had to separate one from them because they literally ATE her. I would call it cannibalism. they eventually killed the chicken and then ate it. The chickens weren't hungry, we fed them everyday, they had a large free space outside to walk around all day. When having too many eggs, we noticed that chickens would EAT them. Crack them open, eat out the inside and even eat the outside too. When one of the cows had a baby calf, we let it drink all the milk as he wanted, but cows breasts got swollen up because of the large amount of milk that she produced and it was pouring out at all times, and I personally saw her push her breasts against a tree or a wall in a way that the milk was pouring out, so she could relieve herself. The veterinarian came and had to remove 5 litres of milk with a machine from her because she was in pain. We gave the milk to the pigs, to the cats and the dogs. They weren't against it at all. And I don't find honey so disturbing... in many countries you can't get a hold of maple syrup, agave or any other non-animal sweetener, and if you can, it's insanely expensive...and honey is a way better and healthier option than white sugar, simple syrup etc..
What I mean is, most people who live in the modern world, even while living in villages, don't actually experience how animals live and behave. I am vegan for my personal health reasons, and I will not eat animal products, but I have a rational view about what's going on. And yes, people are going too far with the whole "don't clap because you might kill a mosquito unintentionally".
I feel like many times people go vegan because it's a trend, almost a religion... A movement works when it has a radical statement, and that is "NO ANIMAL PRODUCTS" rather than "No animal products, except for honey, because it's not causing harm, or eggs when the circumstances are right...blablabla"
But in reality, yes, sometimes animals products usage isn't harmful, cruel... accept it.
***** Exactly, and same goes with sheep wool. I've seen sheep with a huge amount of wool on them and it was dirty, smelly, it had so much stuff sticked to it, I bet the sheep was happy when they shaved it off... and then they used it probably to stuff somebody's winter boots. So what. If using animal products for benefit is gross than donating human blood and human hair is gross as well, because we are animals. And L-cysteine, an amino acid most often synthesized from human hair is used in making white bread, I believe mostly in China, and there's plenty of proof you can find on it. People are on the top of the evolution chain because they have managed to cleverly use the natur's gifts, and I believe wearing wool is more natur-friendly than make synthetic products and that's why I disagree with the obsession of veganism.
It's a thing called genetic modification. Their genes have been manipulated to produce more than they need, after all animals are viewed as commodities. And just because they have excess doesn't mean we should take it, if a human breast feeding mum over produced I highly doubt people would try to justify drinking that.
in an eastern village called Tureň in Slovakia, we have no modificated cows are you kidding me
Ilona Takácsová genetic modification doesnt mean it was made in a lab, it means hundreds, if not thousands of years of selective breeding which led to the way people wanted animals to be. Just like the dog breeds we invented
Ilona Takácsová Sorry IIona, but you are heavily misinformed. I grew up on a farm as well and we had cows as well and farming in my family goes back centuries. Selective breeding and, more recently, genetic manipulation, has resulted in the selection and production of cows who produce enormous amounts of milk, 35-40 litres a day which is 10 times the amount required by the calf. I asked my grandfather how much milk did the cows (before the introduction of jersey cows) used to give 80 yrs ago and his answer was... yep, you guessed it right, 5-6 litres. You fail to address the issue that humans have genetically manipulated animals so that they can cater to their needs.
I have had many in depth philosophical conversations with my 5 year old about the foods we eat. The conversations usually start with him asking how foods make it to our plate and I provide the facts as I know them and then ask what he thinks about those facts. So far he's come to the conclusion that he doesn't want cows and chickens to die for him to eat but he can't help but put his desire for ham over the death of the pig. One day we talked about honey. I explained how we get the honey and he thought it very unfair that we take their honey without asking. I found this endearing and again let him make the decision to eat it or not based on the evidence he knows. I think fostering calm and rational conversations around these topics is important for all the people who wish to discuss it with me. That's why I really like your channel. You're not polarized and you challenge yourself with research, engaging conversations and erring on the side of compassion.
I share your opinion. Living in the countryside of Poland I get my honey from my neighbours who do really care about their bees like they were their pets. They let them collect any nectar the bees naturally want and fill the beeyards with sugar during cold seasons. So I don't have any problem with consuming this honey because I have already been participating so often this process and that's the only honey I consume (and it's dang tasty like heaven or something).
I even agree with the "animal-friendly-milk-and-eggs"-part because I see, how the cows are milked by hand and are not exploited or tortured at all, and the calf is also getting more than enough milk to grow, or how freely the chickens live eating whatever insect or grass they want and walking through the garden as normal people. And as a result the eggs look and taste so differently you really can't compare this to any storebouught egg in this world!
So I can't say I'm 100% vegan because of my seven eggs a year or the homemade cheese I make from fresh milk or my love to real honey, but that's all I eat from animal products and I am totally okay with it.
To jest swietne! :)
There are 2700 worms in an acre of soil. Worms are tunneling through the soil digesting it and generating castings that nourish plants. Is growing food vegan?
3 years and not a single reply... typical vegan side-step.
Or fruit that’s been consumed and the seeds are pooped out creating more food...
Well, the good thing is, worms don't need their own poop (quite the opposite, really). If they did, and they were exploited for their poop in order to grow plants, then maybe these plants wouldn't be vegan. However, you could just grow plants on non-wormy soil (like in a flower pot).
@@jamesvandao-vergona3257 That's more of a side effect (birds aren't exploited to spread seeds). Furthermore, a lot of plants spread their seeds by other means than animals.
mr saxophon what about silk worms
I have a question and I'd really like to know what you think about this. We already know bees are dying out but think about this - if people stopped eating honey, there would be no more interest in people actually keeping bees, wouldn't it be more likely for bees to die out? And we need bees to survive. I don't know maybe I'm being stupid, but that's just the way I see it...?
LunaLoona20 from everything i've read, the bees dying out is a human induced impact, and commerical beekeeping is part of the problem. when beekeepers take too much honey the hive cannot sustain itself- remember the bees make the honey for themselves, to feed their young and last them through the winter-- so the honeybees die.
i do believe some smaller beekeepers are more careful to leave enough honey for the bees to live on.
Leah Chochinov if people start buying locally produced honey (like from farmers markets) rather than commercial store bought honey then this problem would virtually disappear, since it is no small-time beekeepers best interests to harm the hive - plus since small-time beekeepers primarily let their bees roam and collect nectar from various plants rather than feeding them sugar-water as is done by the commercial beekeepers means that the honey tastes different (and most say better)
I agree with this! Sadly the commercial stuff will always be cheaper in the store, but hopefully people will realize that the environmental cost is so much larger!
It's multifaceted- bees and pollinating insects are dying out due to human impacts like pesticides, along with diseases that are spreading through several continents. In some ways, hobby beekeeping helps mitigate this as it keeps bees alive locally (commercial honey not so much as they are trucked around to pollinate crops and don't really have a good benefit on other animals). However, it's also a problem as there are hundreds of pollinators, and focussing all our attention on honeybees diverts attention from other pollinators, when in some areas honey bees aren't even native. So if you buy honey, buy locally produced farmers honey, but help the other pollinators too, such as by planting wildflowers in your garden or not using pesticides or dangerous chemicals- and if you discover a bumblebee nest or something in your leaves, leave it be, don't rake it up
LunaLoona20 you forget the reason why they die out. And that's not at all because of natural causes. It's most likely because of the human beekeeping.
When I was younger I worked in a grain store we had oats, barley, wheat and rapeseed. Because of working there I can assure you that many rats, mice and insects have been killed in order for you to be able to purchase products containing these things.
These are obviously not animal products but their agriculture and storage have caused suffering. As pointed out in the video the official definition of the word vegan should be irrelevant. Where you personally draw the line on the amount of impact you cause is what's important.
beekeeping can be good for bees because the beekeepers can treat diseases and increase the bee population.
honestly for the good of the planet i think it's in our best interest to support good local beekeepers.
I still haven't been presented with a good argument against eating honey. On the other hand the arguments in favour of beekeeping (relation with bees and the environment) is huge. The key here is to know to whom you buy from. I do think vegans that don't eat honey are fundamentalists/extremists in their diet and ideology since there is no reasonable evidence to defend that position. Regarding what we know, not eating honey because it's not vegan is as silly as to say humans are the same as other animals - and many vegans and vegetarians say sh*t like that all the time. And this is from a fellow vegan.
+Tiago Varela Bees work all year round for a food supply for the winter months. Worker bees have an average life span of five weeks while other bees live years. They exhaust themselves to make sure the hive has honey for the winter and then it is taken. Many beekeepers replace the honey they take with sugars and many don't saying that there will be enough honey residue.
+Tiago Varela
Honey is not vegan. Honey comes from an animal so there is really no debate. End of story.
+Tiago Varela the thing is, we don't really need honey, just because there's no "good argument" against eating honey doesn't mean vegans should eat them right away. No, some vegans don't feel the need to take honey, cuz it's really unnecessary and there's a lot of alternatives that you can get instead. It saves a lot of vegans from the insecurity of weather it was collected ethically or not. We just don't need it, and technically honey is not vegan, you can eat honey sure, but don't call yourself vegan anymore, you're vegetarian, and that's not particularly bad :)
There is absolutely no argument to not eat honey. Is just silly.
+NordicNicklas Dogma 101
Has of the "crazy" vegans commenting on this video ever thought about the fact, many of the fruit and veggies you buy at the store organic or not, still pose detriment to the life's of animals and insects? Having an avocado in February, (if your from Canada or some wheres were nothing grow in winter) which has to fly across the world, polluting the planted, destroying the habitats of many animals, KILLING MILLIONS of insects , is much worse then buying from your local farmer market from LOCAL farm (where you can even go to see the animals) to buy and eat an ethically raised, sustainable SUSTAINABLE eggs.. I personally do eat mostly vegan.. but seriously people think about sustainability.. I know I said "crazy" vegans at the beginning of the message, and some vegans are.
Like "meat free athlete" down there instead of criticizing everyone around you, think about the poison that go into make the plastic that hold your vegan protein powder, surely the chemicals from that plastic has harmed not only plants and humans,but insects, and animals too.
Many vegans especially many I see on you tube, think that it's okay to put other people down for not believing what they believe, but they are in fact in many ways are total hypocrites.
Educating people about the completely inhuman and horrendous ways that animals are treated in commercial farming, and teaching alternative protein source, and other was of healthy eating, is necessary!! But being a small minded crazy vegan elitists is just plan wrong.. many times you just make people angry and less willing to listen.
+Unnatural Vegan, I love your channel, you give great advice, and educate, you give a second perspective, and your not afraid to say the truth even if there are many other youtubers other there saying the opposite, you give educated thought to everything you say, and can have an educational debate with people the disagree. Thanks!
OPPS for all the spelling grammar mistakes, I was totally triggered.
I totally agree with you.
Hi! I really enjoy your videos and appreciate your honesty and the fact that you are down to earth. Your arguments are always researched and well balanced, and you make a conscious effort to point out both sides of an issue. Congratulations and keep up the good work!! :)
Thank you for thinking outside of the box. I wish there were more vegans with your mindset. It's the militant lifestyle and way of thinking that scared me away for a long time, but your approach is so much more accepting and I am very appreciative of that. Keep it up, you're awesome.
You are the smartest vegan I have come across so far. Keep doing what you are doing. Please keep educating the public.
I love your channel. Your arguments are well though out, well researched and most importantly, reasonable. The approach you take to educating people on being Vegan isn't condescending and I believe is making this way of life far less daunting. Well done - subscribed!
"I care about reducing suffering, not semantics" LOVE THIS QUOTE
Some of my teachers in college had a couple different hives and they love their bees so much. Any decent beekeepers will love and care for their bees. Beekeeping, when done by a decent person is so good for the planet and the population of bees. If more people are honey, more people would care about the population of bees.
Difference is honey is healthy. Has something called chrysin in it that's good for hormones. Also 100 percent honey doesn't mold or expire so it's got antibiotic properties and so on. Bashing a vegan for consuming honey is just being ultra critical.
Being a vegan and consuming honey is like hating Asian people and caliming not to be a racist.
@@AlexandrusMegus - congratulations, you made the most silly statement on this thread...
thank you for being a rational person who seems to weigh in all aspects of veganism and doing your research without freaking the f@$% out about whatever topic you may be discussing. it's seriously refreshing especially when ALOT of vegan youtubers ..are really just trying to shove things in your face..which I agree is not good for the movement and makes it seem harder to obtain to the average person or someone trying to make the change. Thanks for being practical!
very much appreciated :)
I've watched your videos for close to a year now, but don't think I've ever left a comment. I want to thank you for how well you put your videos together. I appreciate the way you present information. Over this past year I have changed my eating habits to be mostly plant based, and joined some vegan pages on Facebook, as well as a vegan Meetup group in my area. The majority of what I have seen in the vegan community has been very judgmental. It has put me off so much that I don't want to be referred to as vegan. I believe if there were more people who lived a vegan lifestyle who represented themselves similar to the way you do, there would be a lot more people considering the vegan lifestyle themselves. I appreciate what you are doing. Thank you.
Finally! A sensible vegan!
Are the people that are so against honey aware that there are a lot of farmers that use bees to pollinate their crops? I live in a very agricultural community and sometimes I like to take strolls through fields and there are apiaries in many of them. The same farmers usually collect the honey and sale it. I have a jar from an avocado farm right now.
I LOVE you :D
okay, that has been a little bit TOO streight foreward... I've watched your videos about raw till 4, freelee and fat on fruit and intuitiv eating and some more and it's like you speak out all the thoughts and doubts I had with this topics :) I really like your videos and ... your makeup on this one and the previous one with the pain and insects :)
I like how you show pros and cons of the subject and how honest you are. Girl, you've got a fan :D
Thank you for this. As a fellow vegan I am very open minded but opinionated and you really hit the nail on the head with how I feel about milk eggs and honey. I am a vegan but my husband is a vegetarian and always tries to buy pasture raised dairy products from our local farms around us. He talks to the farmers at the market and sees how they treat the animals. I agree that if they're not being pumped full of hormones and they are eating their natural diet and they don't suffer and the babies don't go hungry, but there isn't really necessarily a big issue with it I think the bigger issue is helping to get rid of animal testing and factory farming I think we all have to really pick our battles and choose them wisely. Thank you so much it feels so nice to see someone who has a passion for animals but also some of the same "radical" opinions that I do :-)
Great video! Not sure if you are looking for video suggestions, but I was wondering if you could do a video on your thoughts about the birth control pill. Durianrider just put out a video on it and I have heard him mention it several times. Since watching his video I am beginning to be scared of continuing to take the pill, and am now trying to find an alternative that will work for my lifestyle. I would love to hear your opinion on this topic.
I'm always looking for video suggestions! I never considered doing one on birth control, but other people have asked as well. So will do!
The "rare" side effects listed on the Pill's medical sheet are far, far more common than they pretend. I had Pulmonary Embolism from taking the pill, and I am the 1% of those whose clots won't dissolve, so I live with blood clots and now scar tissue in my lungs, probably for life, which requires me to use oxygen 24/7 and a wheelchair when I leave the house as I can not walk very far even on oxygen without my saturation dropping dangerously. To say that I wish I never took birth control is an understatement. Never disregard the risks and side effects of medications...rare or uncommon is not never...whatever is listed could happen to you. Weigh the risks and benefits carefully and don't think it could never happen to you.
I got banned from a vegan page on facebook for respectfully presenting the exact point of view you have expressed here! Major fail! I'm now officially excluded from the vegan club!
The same just happened to me today 😥
I just found your page and I really like hearing your opinions! I am a vegan and I think it's really important to think critically about things like this instead of following something without thinking about it. I'll be following your posts!
I love this video because I feel like it acknowledges the people on the other side who are making genuine effort not to inflict pain on the animals they farm. And too often when I hear people talk about being vegan I feel like they ignore the fact that there are a lot of people in the livestock industry (I realize that this is about honey production) who care about their animal's well being and I know some people aren't capable of understanding how that could be but I promise it's true. My point is, this is a wonderful video and you've earned a nonvegan subscriber. :)
The survival of bees is essential to our own lives in terms of producing the plants and crops we need to eat. So causing harm to them in any way is absolutely out of the question. However, it is possible to retrieve honey without harming the bees. If that is done then there's no problem with consuming honey.
Plenty of food options for humans without resorting to eating bee food..
Plant Based Guerilla Bee vomit*
Sylvanas Windrunner Tasty bee vomit*
What about avoiding a product which includes some honey. Does it make sense to avoid it or not?
Bees make human food. If bees are gone there wont be "plenty of options". 2/3 of our food is pollinated by bees
This is very interesting. Thanks for sharing! Also thanks for mentioning that there are both theoretical and practical issues at stake, and we need to ask both sorts of questions. Well done.
I studied entomology in university, insects feel pain, well at least the physical aspect of pain. They have pain receptors, just not the same ones we have (nociceptors). They have a class of neurons called multidendritic neurons that functions in a similar way as ours. However, pain is classified as a physical and emotional response and that's where the confusion comes into play, but insects do feel negative physical response to harmful stimuli.
I just want to post here and say THANK YOU for being such a reasonable voice in the vegan community. You make this lifestyle seem more manageable for a newbie "vegan" like me. I am in an odd spot, because I own some pet chickens (love my ladies!) and am also interested in owning bees. Having egg-layers and honey-makers in my own back yard makes me feel like a "bad vegan", but in reality all the animals in my life are so loved and their products are used by my local community and family. I think that by providing my products I am helping to reduce the demand for commercial eggs and honey. That being said, if I could not harvest honey from my own hive (or from a friend's hive) I wouldn't want anything to do with it.
eggs are not vegan, what happens to the roosters?
My grandma buys honey from our village that we go to every summer. She has a friend who has bee's and she says that she doesn't do any harm to her bee's. So I guess it's okay to eat as long as there is no harm.
+Ariadna111 no...... the bees make it for themselves lmao people are so ignorant. they make it to eat, not for others to eat
+Alexis Rose You seem like one of those vegans that have a stick up their ass 24/7
+Alexis Rose Oh I didn't know that. Thanks for telling me :)
Love love love your calm and collected attitude when discussing things like this. Or anything really.
Honey is one of my favorite foods. I want to try harder to know where the honey I'm buying is coming from though.
You always hit the nail on the head in your videos! Seriously, so good!
So, first off I want to say this was a very interesting video and I applaud the creator for filming it.
Second, after reading some of the comments, I feel the need to defend my "omnivorous" ways a little bit. Now, I am not vegan or vegetarian but I understand the reasons for becoming vegan or vegetarian, whether it's for health, ethical purposes, or both. That being said, it's still very possible to be an omnivore but still have an ethical take on it. I see humans as "animals" because let's face it, we are. Every biology or life science class will tell you humans fall under the kingdom Animalia. Therefore, it's incredibly arrogant to say we aren't animals. Because of that, I feel it should be okay to eat meat. You wouldn't stop a bear from consuming salmon as it comes up the river or a lion from chomping on a gazelle. It's silly. Thankfully for us, we have that choice to consume either plant, animal, fungi, or any combination thereof. With that in mind, we also have the responsibility to understand our choices do have consequences for our world. With that in mind, I do try to make sure that my sources of meat and other animal byproducts are from more ethical sources such as free ranged farms and not factory farms. There are weeks I'll go without meat because this venture is more spendy than I can always afford and yes, there are times I cheat and purchase the more commercially made items. But, in the long run, I still feel good about myself for what I do.
I wanted to say this because sometimes it seems like there are those that like to try and make us omnivores feel bad just for wanting some bacon and eggs for breakfast or a nice steak for dinner. Again, I understand and support why one would want to be vegan. It's just not for me and I'd like to feel my choice is not being judged. Thank you.
Hi! I think I can apply your reasoning also to eggs. I am not talking about industrial eggs of course! but what if you have a couple of chickens free and happy in your garden and you treat them like a dog or a cat? They will make eggs during the spring/summer time because it's their nature. No matter if you will get the eggs or not, the chickens will keep on make one egg each every single day. In this very case, I thinks the eggs are ethically vegan too.
Yes but chickens are supposed to make like 20 eggs a year. They've been bred to make way way more. This puts a lot of pressure on their system. I think that I likely would eat an egg or two if I had a backyard chicken. As hings stand I will not consume any eggs because I can't be sure of their source
Question about insects + pain. Does emotional pain count? If i couldnt feel physical pain but wanted to live would it be okay to kill me?
Kevin The Vegan Kid emotional pain most definitely counts (it's one of the main aspects of suffering)
I love this video. Thank you for talking about this! Immediately subscribing! We need more vegans who don't make baseless assumptions about how animal minds work. On the honey topic, I'm wondering how beneficial bees used for honey are for the environment, and if they are routinely used to pollinate crops. If so, I believe it is CRUCIAL that we support ethical bee keeping. We need bees, and we need to support bees, wherever they may be. Without them, our agricultural system is slowly collapsing where the wild populations are unable to recover.
From what I understand the honey we take (their food) is replaced with cheap sugar water which deprives the colonies of important enzymes and nutrients. This probably isn't so good for them and may be a factor in bees dying off. I guess if we took less and left them with more it would be better… but you know--profits come first, environment comes last:(
In the large scale industry, this may be somewhat true - but most local farms simply keep part of the honey, which is overproduced by bees without putting any pressure on them. They aren't on any shortage and that's how they survive through winter.
In nature, they would have significantly less honey because they would be worried about predators/parasites/etc
Found your vid fascinating and even more so the comments about the "hurting" of bees and the "stealing" of honey. Have you done a vid about farming? Not the beautiful bounty and how healthy vegetables are but the process of farming, specifically what happens at ground level when a spade plow rips through the soil behind a tractor? Then the disc plow that cuts through the large clumps to fine the soil. I was thinking of the poor moles, voles, mice, goffers, ground squirrels, ants, spiders, earthworms,........ Then there is the cultivation plow that is pulled through the rows several times between planting and harvest to aerate and for weed control. And finally, the combine and picking equipment that is used. Oh, and don't forget the animals that are squashed by the trucks going in and out of the fields, the transportation of products to market that kills all those bugs (including bees), small animals, and rodents. Seems that purchasing farm raised vegetables would be anti-vegan, wouldn't it? I really am liking your channel but the hypocrisy of the vegan culture is rooted in arrogance and lacks critical thinking as evidenced by many of your commenters. However I very much appreciate your common sense approach as you seem to have towards animals. It seems your not arrogant in your views, just being practical towards a vegan lifestyle. Good Job! I like real.
BDMOutdoors Absolutely. We kill a lot of animals and insects to feed ourselves.
*****
We may kill insects unintentionally (and we need to acknowledge this and hold ourselves accountable for all destruction of life inflicted by our choices) in current mass production plant agriculture, but does that justify killing and using them even further by producing products made of those insects? No, it doesn't. By your logic, since sometimes mice are killed unintentionally as a result of plant agriculture, that would justify us breeding and murdering mice to sell and consume their flesh or breeding mice to consume their milk or any other thing that comes out of their body? Sounds pretty ridiculous. This is why I oppose honey, insects being killed in plant agriculture does not justify consuming their products. Also please check out Happy Healthy Vegan 's video on this matter: th-cam.com/video/Kf2zPgD8v3M/w-d-xo.html
Zoe Kolln I am not vegan and don't intend to ever be but very interested in the dietary information from veganism. That being said, there is nothing unintentional about farming. When a field is plowed, it is fully understood that critters and their habitat are going to be destroyed. In a fallow field, it is going to be lots of critters as the field has set undisturbed for a season allowing many little critters to populate that field. You apparently know little of farming on large or any scale. Can't feed the population with box gardens in backyards. My point is that vegans only see what they want to see as is the case with the vast majority of people. So how do you hold yourself accountable when you go to the super market or farmers market to buy your greens? What penalty do you impose on yourself for the consumption of veggies that you now know intentionally caused the life of some poor little field critter or exploited them by destroying their home? Not picking on you, I would really like to know how vegans wrap the moral argument up in their heads. The core of the vegan movement is do no harm to animals.
BDMOutdoors
"Veganism is a way of living which seeks to exclude, as far as is possible and practicable, all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose." (www.vegansociety.com/try-vegan/definition-veganism)
I actually do understand large-scale farming - and of course I know that we can't feed the world with our backyard gardens. I understand that fields must be plowed in order to grow plants. When I said 'unintentional' I meant the land is not being used the raise and then slaughter animals, it is being used to produce plants.
By being vegan, I am attempting to reduce/exclude all forms of exploitation to animals as far as is practical and possible. I often go to a small organic farm (they are very small and do not use plows in their gardens) through my college campus when they grow veggies and fruit in the summer season. I also go to my farmers market when they are more open during the warmer seasons (please see the Happy Healthy Vegan video interviewing small farmers at the market in Cali before/if you respond to this comment: th-cam.com/video/Kf2zPgD8v3M/w-d-xo.html). I grow some of my own food in my garden like herbs and stuff. And YES I do buy veggies from a grocery store - vegetables, fruits, and grains that were likely mass produced. I said in my previous post that we should hold ourselves accountable for the fact that as humans we will inevitably be harming animals as our species is a virus and destroys habitat at a fast rate... luckily I am not contributing to animal agriculture which is now the #1 leading cause of deforestation, habitat loss, excess water usage, land usage, ocean dead zones, and species loss (www.cowspiracy.com/facts/). Animal agriculture also uses 51% of the worlds crops in America alone every year, we are growing way more food than we need (plus the land needed to feed the animals and raise them until slaughter) just to feed animals so that we can raise them and slaughter them for way less food than we would have gotten if we were to just go to the plants directly. When we eat plants directly, we can use far less land and other resources like water, which means less animals homes being destroyed when fields are plowed (and no further deforestation, as we already have enough crop land to feed the entire planet - if we didn't have enough crop land to feed the entire planet, then how could we feed/raise 60billion land animals and 90billion marine animals every year worldwide? We only have 7billion people on the planet, DO THE MATH). If you are not vegan and are seriously suggesting that me eating vegetables and fruits is more exploitive to animals than eating animals directly, you are insane.
If you aren't eating grass fed cow, then your eating grain fed cow and that requires way more grains than I would ever eat to produce (approximately 16lbs of grain = 1lb or beef). You consume more than 10x the amount of plants than me or any other vegan when you consume animals and their products (which means more animals are harmed when eating animal flesh). & if you happen to be eating pasture/grass fed cows than you contribute to immense deforestation (91% of amazon deforestation is to make way for grass fed cattle - 1-2 acres are cleared EVERY SECOND) which is directly related to habitat loss/species loss. Also 97% of meat in the U.S. is grain fed. You also need to understand that YOUR plate likely does not just include animals but likely a side of grains and/or greens. By not being vegan, you consume far more plants and animals than any vegan.
Sounds like I might not be the one who should be holding myself accountable....
To answer your question: "So how do you hold yourself accountable when you go to the super market or farmers market to buy your greens?"
I hold myself accountable by being vegan and having the least environmental impact on the planet as possible through my diet and by not eating animals (their flesh, eggs, milk, or honey) (I also cycle and bus vs. drive - but that's nothing compared to the amazing benefits of a vegan diet on our atmosphere, oceans, air, and forests) We may cause indirect deaths from producing crops and we need to acknowledge this, but that does not invalidate veganism AT ALL (and we cause FAR LESS deaths than any human omnivore).
& further more I don't "impose a penalty [on myself]" for eating fruits, veggies, nuts, seeds, grains, and legumes, because eating that way DOES inflict the least amount of harm (Please see Bite Size Vegan's video on this topic before/if you respond: th-cam.com/video/1w1da3wdTjk/w-d-xo.html)
Maybe the question should be: How do you hold YOURSELF accountable for the deaths you intentionally inflict on animals as a result of purchasing and consuming their flesh, blood, skin, bones, eggs, milk, and honey? (and PLEASE don't forget that it takes far more plants and deforestation to raise animals than you may think)
Also please see this chart and article for additional information on why/how consuming animals has a far greater death toll than eating plants: www.animalvisuals.org/projects/data/1mc
I hope this is plenty of information for you to show you "how vegans wrap the moral argument up in their heads". Jeez, don't say your "Not picking on [me]" and then post such obviously derogatory comments.
I have a question if someone could help me, whats the situation with industrial bees, they pollinate huge veggie and fruit crops i think, but theyre mistreated, so then should i, if im a vegan, only grow my own source of food by going to each plant myself and pollinating them with a cotton swap or other tool?
With more research having been done since the time this video was posted, it would be good to have an update. Or, at least, I would love to see one.
If buying honey helps bee populations, i.e. Without the honey industry bee populations would decline, then I think honey is fine to be eaten by vegans
+George Radcliffe "Without the honey industry bee populations would decline"
This is a myth based on no facts.
I've been a vegan for a while now. And I think your argument is flawed and appalling to some level.
1) There is no evidence that supports your claim "without honey industry, the bee population would decline". If you really care about bees, make beehives but do not take honey from them (let them take care of the honey themselves). Honey is the food for the queen and drones and their survival food for harsh winter.
2) I was appalled with your logic. It's like saying without meat industries and dairy industries, the population of farmed animals would decline.
I think if want to advocate for veganism, stop honey too. You should call yourself vegetarian not vegan. And I do respect that too.
B
Sure, I’ll gladly call myself whatever the hell other people want. I don’t really care.
Reducing suffering is more important than semantics and ideological charades.
Ethical beekeeping ensures protection of bees and is thus helpful for the environment
I visited the beekeepers and there was no burning or clipping of wings. They were enthusiastic about medicinal properties and teaching local schools and clubs about the importance of bees and organic growing methods. They have a close relationship with local orchards.
Thank you for the well thought out, well researched video. I got into a shouting match with a guy at work about this and stopped talking to him for a few months. It's good to have some information to go on.
I disagree with that idea. You're not checking to make sure your plants are harvested humanely and isn't causing issue to the surrounding wildlife. It's valuing insects pain over humans and non human animals like wolves, foxes, deer, rabbits, etc. I support honey and honey farmers I've talked to because we need to increase the bee population. That means we need full time bee caretakers. That means they need money. They make money by selling honey. I'm vegan for environmental reasons so I support bee keepers.
Really enjoy listening to your stand point of veganism, like if you know the animal is not suffering, why stop eating their bi-products.
Because you are exploiting them. Veganism is not just about not causing harm its about the exploitation of the animal world. Humans arrogance that animals are just a commodity for them to use
I see but if the animal benefits from it is it really exploitation? If the animal is promised safety, food, water and shelter, it is living a good life - possibly even a better life compared to if it was not being 'exploited'. Humans are not the only species that exploits others, some or probably a lot of the relationships only benefit one party. Its nature to do what you want to have the best chances
Basically the word exploitation has a negative connotation and I wouldn't use that word to describe keeping chickens or bees, *provided the animal is kept well*
@@stillrunningonempty i hope you don't have any pets then. exploiting animals for their affection and forcing them to be your companion is rather cruel.
again you provide an arguement calmly and to the point, i m not yet vegan but am progressing along the path. every fall i help harvest honey from a small producer and I ve not seen any of what peta states. For my 2 cents worth of input, as with all food including plants you have to choose wisely
Very thought provoking. Thank u.
I'm realy thinking about being vegan everytime I watch another video of yours, keep it up 👍
I am vegan but I do feel that there isn't a problem with eating honey now. Some say we are exploiting them however there are many animals in the animal kingdom that consume honey as well and many don't seem to care. Plus bees are very important to the environment and their numbers are decreasing. I feel as if the honey industry is actually benefitting the environment (besides the fact of how much land it takes up) and if they are cared for and not harmed it doesn't seem to much of an issue.
Thank you for a calm and reasoned discussion of the topic!
I've heard some people, like Onision here on TH-cam, argue that we shouldn't stop honey production because then we wouldn't have enough bees to pollinate all the plants and crops in the world. I really don't know if this is true or if there would be enough bees for pollination without us making more bees for honey production. Anyone have more knowledge or thoughts on this?
Omg!!! No one needs to cut queen bees wings!! They only live the beehive once in their time to mate! The rest if their lives they lay eggs! Bee kipping or in the wild..
okay, so would you be fine with consuming milk and eggs if it was your own farm and you knew you treated the animals well and wouldn't force anything onto them as well? (e.g. you wouldn't take all the cow's milk and leave all the milk the calf needs)
Franzi Sparkle Sure. I personally wouldn't because I prefer eating plants, but I would have no moral objection to it.
***** This is where I believe you are wrong. Ethical veganism rejects the commodification of animals, here is a passage by Gary Francione on Ethical Veganism: "An ethical vegan rejects the commodification of nonhumans as property. An ethical vegan is committed to the abolition of animal exploitation." (www.abolitionistapproach.com/some-thoughts-on-the-meaning-of-vegan/#.VRipuI6FmT0) Animals are used for our UNNECESSARY purposes, and I believe when 'vegans' have 'no moral objections' to the exploitation and commodification of animals for any purpose be it food, clothing, entertainment, habit, or convenience, it completely goes against what veganism means and is bad for our movement. As an ethical vegan, I also refuse to participate in speciesism, classifying different animals as okay to take from and abuse while feeling sorry for and protecting others species. What is your response to *****'s video on Honey?: th-cam.com/video/E0N8UYgMGDQ/w-d-xo.html
I believe Emily makes a compelling case that honey is indeed NOT vegan
You talk about moral responsibility and minimising suffering, why do you take a utilitarian view of animals, rather than a rights view? Should cows not have the right to not be sexually molested? Just wondering.
***** I would appreciate a response. Also Fruity in Five poses a good question.
Zoe Kolln
hm, she deleted her comment.. interesting..
I usually get my honey from a beekeeper family I know from the Farmer's Market, and from the local Food Co-Op. I've been unable to visit the hives, of the family, but I've spoken with them and people at the market who know them, and they take good care of their bees. The co-op has their hives right out in the open, next to the building, right in the middle of the neighborhood, and I sit with the bees a lot. It's just a peaceful spot to hang out.
I have relationships with humane beekeepers in my area of Central Texas and our beekeepers are completely opposed to the mistreatment of the bees. They are more than willing to come to a person's home and remove a hive, free of charge, just to save the bees and rehome them. These beekeepers also refuse to use pesticides and antibiotics and they use the taps and specially made hive boxes so the honey can be harvested without disturbing the bees. Most of us in our area suffer from seasonal allergies and eating our local honey and bee pollen from our local wildflowers give us a natural path to treat our allergies instead of taking more drugs prescribed by doctors.
At last a vegan that makes sense.. I really hate these militant vegans who contradict everything they claim to be ie compassionate and against suffering, yet they're okay with bullying and being aggressive to both vegans and non-vegans alike. I've got to the point where I don't even like to label myself as "vegan" because it makes me feel like I need to subscribe to this militant and oppressive behaviour, rather than be a free thinking individual who simply wants to avoid causing animal suffering. And if people want to call me out for not being vegan enough, then that's fine by me.. because I would rather be me than them!
Classic straw-man argument. First, you redefined the term 'veganism' to fit your eventual argument for the consumption of honey.
allencrider Not at all, although I see where you're coming from. Again, my point is to reduce suffering. I think sticking to a strict definition of vegan just because is silly and irrational. By this definition, sponges are included even though they cannot feel pain.
It bewilders me why people on the internet take arguing and trash talking others so seriously that they actually put for the effort to researching the different type of arguments when debating with internet strangers.
WHAT'S the vegan position on ticks or termite and bedbug infestations?
Really enjoy your videos. You take the thoughts right out of my brain.
I don't agree that "honey can be vegan"... it's just not vegan... it comes from an animal. Just like dairy isn't vegan because it comes from an animal. That's just the definition, not a "judgement' or my opinion. I find the whole argument kind of silly because some people know what the definition of vegan is but they try to re-define it to include foods they don't want to give up, like honey.
If you want to eat honey, eat it! No one can stop you. It just means that you're eating something that's not vegan. It just is what it is.
Besides, avoiding honey really isn't hard. Not sure why there is such a fuss over it!
Meat Free Athlete So you believe eating sponges, which are animals who lack a nervous system and therefore cannot feel pain, is unethical?
Why would I eat sponges? That's such a silly response to my comment.
Like I said, if you want to eat honey no one can stop you. However, you can't re-define veganism to suite yourself. There's a clear definition of veganism.
No one said you have to be vegan, so there's no argument here... you can eat honey all you want, but that fact is that it's not vegan. It is what it is.
I believe ***** covers the facts of honey very well in her video.
Meat Free Athlete You said that honey is not vegan because it comes from an animal. So you accept the strict definition that anything of or from an animal is not vegan. Sponges are animals, therefore, killing/eating them is unethical. Correct?
Obviously I wouldn't eat sponges.
If a sponge is classified as an animal I will avoid harming them. It's really not that hard to care about other living beings.
Meat Free Athlete But sponges have no nervous system and cannot feel pain. "Killing" one would literally be no different than "killing" a plant. The only difference is that sponges are classified as animals.
The problem with eggs, milk and honey is that the vast majority of it is not ethically produced. Nor can it be ethically produced if everyone continues to eat it, as it would need an even larger amount of land, time, and resources than we currently have. When something is produced on a large scale, shortcuts are taken, often not in the animals' favor.
The issue with 4:22 and 5:10 is that if we do both, we cause by far more damage than by just doing one and not eating honey. It's a stupid argument. Even if we eat honey, we will still drive, eat sugar and eat crops that kill bugs. But if we don't eat honey, we kill less bugs. It's like meat eaters saying "More animals are killed during the harvesting of crops than are slaughtered for meat". That's true, but if we then ALSO slaughter for meat, we killed more animals in total than if we were to harvest crops without slaughtering for meat. Just because more animals are killed in process A, doesn't mean we should continue killing animals in unrelated process B.
Exactly my thoughts on this. Thank you
MsWannabeGamer The only case were this will be valid is in cases of substitution, when eating bugs or using insect products is an alternative to cows etc. But you are right: the video does contains a non sequitur
Jaime Duncan Why would there need to be substitution?
MsWannabeGamer I am not from the USA,a vegan diet is simply not viable, economically or resource wise, in many parts of the world. That is true in my country, even many people in the middle class in that live outside the capital. A friend of mind (a women) got very sick. Other countries are less fortunate than CR. Best regards
Jaime Duncan It actually is viable, since fruits, vegetables, legumes, grains etc. are cheaper than meat and dairy in every country. As for resources, there are already enough resources to feed the whole planet, but they go to farm animals. If less people ate meat, less resources would be used to feed farm animals and could be used to produce vegan foods more cheaply.
What are your thoughts on honey given the bee shortage and pollination situation? I'm kinda feeling like we need to support commercial honey right now for no other reason but this. Idk, I'm definitely no expert here, can you make a revisited honey video taking about this specifically?
This is slightly off topic, but I don't really know who else to ask this. I am not vegan, but I do pay very close attention to the food I eat and I always make sure I get my food from cruelty free sources. I never really considered insects before this video and I just wanted to ask about wasps. I am allergic to wasps. If I get stung by one and I am not near a hospital, I could likely die. During the summer my apartment has tons of wasps hanging around the windows. I do everything I can not to let them in, but sometimes one gets in anyway. Is it unethical for me to kill it? I use a spray that kills on contact and after it falls to the floor I immediately step on it to ensure that it's dead and not wriggling around suffering. I can't think of another option. I live alone. I have a cat, so I can't just leave the window open to let it out. What should I do?
"We probably kill more bugs driving to the grocery store"
- Most irrational quote I've heard from Dr. Greger.
Bugs that accidentally get killed on your way to the store is out of your control, however consuming honey IS in your control. This is the difference. Also, honey is food for the bees, not for humans. You are stealing their food and enslaving them. Honey is not vegan. Period. You may disagree but you're still wrong. You sound like a speciest in this video and I suggest you consider changing your channel name to "Unnatural Vegetarian".
The Fruitman Killing bugs going to the store is largely in your control though. If you were to not drive there you'd be responsible for far less death.
odizzido This prefectionist mindset towards veganism is getting ridiculous. It's about doing what you can to MINIMIZE harm. For the record I ride my bike to the store. I probably still accidentally run over a few bugs per month but less than driving a car I imagine. Enjoy living your life in a bubble.
The Fruitman My bubble? You don't even know if I am vegan. I could eat nothing but meat. I agree with you though, it's stupid and we should stop bringing up little things like this.
The Fruitman actually, honey can be very bad for bees as it can contain many bacteria and viruses that if ingested by the bees will kill them. honey is produced for larvae, and any ethical (rather than commercial) beekeeper will leave more than enough honey in the hive for those larvae.
Kerys Bowler Really? You love honey (bee vomit) so much that you have to make these silly excuses? You can't "ethically" steal someone's food. I don't care how much they leave for the larvae or even if they serve it to them on a silver platter. It's not justified and honey is not vegan no matter what. Period. End of discussion.
first of all, you're not only overcomplicating this, but also distorting the name of veganism. by definition, veganism is an ethical and moral decision- as defined by the vegan society, it is 'a way of living that seeks to exclude, as far as possible and practicable, all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing and any other purpose.'
the consumption of honey is theft and exploitation, simple as.
secondly, when you refer to veganism as 'ethical veganism', it makes no sense. you MUST make the distinction between veganism and plant-based diets or the line of ethical issues becomes blurred (See David Wolfe selling deer placentas and calling himself vegan/FullyRaw Kristina using honey and calling herself vegan, or Simply Vegan saying he'd happily buy leather shoes because 'i'm not eating them'!!!)
if you eat honey/insects, you're not vegan. not an 'ethical vegan', not a 'healthful vegan', not any kind of vegan. if you eat honey because you think it's healthy, you're plant-based. end of story :|
Okay militant ass vegan.
i’m only wondering because i don’t eat honey but there is this body wash i’m using that works really well and it has “honey extract” and i don’t exactly wanna give it up i’m just wondering if it’s ok to use lol
Great video! I really enjoy watching your videos; you're so intelligent; you make valid points and provide wonderful content. 🐝
Halleluja, I just love your videos! I love your kindness and respect towards everyone, the animals AND the humans! and you do not force-feed your perspective on other people! thank you for being you! :)
Hi..i'm trying to learn about veganism, so what you're trying to say is that as long as the process of obtaining the product is ethical, we can consume it? I'm confused.
I can answer your question with certainty. (I am a beekkeeper with 11 hives). Bees - although they inhabit my hives - are wild animals that have unrestricted access to the wider world. They are NOT captive like other livestock (wing clipping does not really work). If the colony is stressed, or the hive that you have provided them with is not to their liking, they will up-sticks and move out. This is called "absconding". A happy colony will stay put and be highly productive, producing a big colony and lots of honey. Beekeepers like to keep their colonies in good shape and happy so they produce a surplus of honey (more than the bees need). Beekeepers provide a water-tight home for them, feed them before winter so they do not struggle as a "wild" colony would, they are treated to remove parasites that would otherwise decimate the colony. In the round - bees are treated well and carefully by the beekeepers. It is in no-ones interst to stress or otherwise ill-treat their bees. Even if it was not - all the bee-keepers that I know would not countenance anything but an ethical treatment of their bees.
I have never heard of a beekeeper burning a hive because they do not want to keep it over winter. This is crazy. A working colony in the UK is worth circa £300 ($360). It is possible if there is a dangerous communicable beekilling disease in the colony that might spread to other colonies. (Like American Foul Brood). But if this is the case you will not be getting honey from that colony. I hope that this clarifies the ethical position for you.
Whether honey (produced from the nectar of flowers) is a vegan product depends on which memes have become embedded in your subconscious mind and I cannot therefore offer any guidance on that. Honey is generally regarded as healthy product and has been so since ancient times - but that is part of another story.
I just subscribed. I have gotten to where I really like your calm
arguments presented very logically. I have thought at times they were a
bit wordy but I have also gotten to where I really enjoy your logic
even if I do not always agree with you. I think you could have picked a
better name. I think you are very natural in your veganism. I would
definitely enjoy you as a friend but would enjoy talking about more than
veganism with you.
Loving your style. Will be following your channel!
Thank you for doing some research and thinking and discussing it not just repeating some catch phrase!
So many interesting arguments! I suppose it's good to address traditionally vegan rationality. Taking that a step further any consumable plant that requires pollination exists because of insects like bees. With regards to your having not experienced cultivation of honey, I have first hand experience- so let me share! I grew up harvesting honey from 5 hives on my family's small farm and have no ethical dilemma for locally sourced raw honey, in fact I prefer it if I can afford it for health, local pollen allergy help, and supporting the flowers, crops, and greenery around me. I am loud and proud!
I'm wondering about vegan honey, I know there are several different kinds and ways to make it, but does anyone have any suggestions as to what kinds might taste the most like real honey?
Amazing video. I will surely bring it to class, I teach English as a second language and there are quite a few students who are vegans, this topic will make a great conversation class. Thank you lady (sorry, I didn't get your name).
Totally agree with you. I'm pretty surprised at how much of a concern honey is for many of my vegan-curious friends. I'd say it's the number one question I get (from those who have moved beyond the 'where do you get your protein?' phase, at least). I try to seem approachable about it by pointing out how easy I find it to avoid and how many plant-based alternatives there are. Once I assure my them I can have all the agave nectar I want, people seem totally fine with the idea.
the end of your videos are always my favorite. "like it maybe? subscribe? give me money on patreon?" hahahaha I feel the same way when I end my videos. I definitely haven't mastered the cheerful "like, comment, subscribe!!" thing
Hey there Swayze.
To me, the most important thing with bees is not directly bees, but rather the implications of beekeeping.
Bees might be the single most important animal species in the planet due to their intricate relation with pollination.
The decline in both honeybee and other species' populations are a major environmental threat to both humans and all animal and plant species.
A single apiary might not do any damage, but the amount of production we do now displaces enormous native species and is measurably impacting the environment.
Just something to add to the discussion.
Cheers.
As a former small beekeeper myself-made it for myself (who gave the excess away to friends and family for free) there are a lot of ways to ethically and sustainability keep them. Unfortunently a terrible winter storm destroyed my entire hive over 3 years ago and I haven't been able to get it back since. Bee keepers help bees by creating MORE bees and keeping them safe in the spring and summer.
Thank you for making this video! You brought up some points that I haven't heard any other vegans discuss. My uncle has a farm with both cows, bees, and chickens. He does not kill them, gives them plenty of room to roam, and simply cares for them while milking the cows and harvesting unfertilized eggs. He does not clip any of the bees wings or burn hives. He just uses some of the honey. When I visit him, I take no problem with eating fresh eggs and drinking milk. Do I believe that those products are healthy? Not necessarily. When I'm not on his farm, however, I do not use any animal products. As an ethical vegan, my problem is not with eating animal products, (Except meat, I don't personally believe there is an ethical way to slaughter animals unless you absolutely need to) it's with cruelty and the food industry.
you are fantastic!! you worded my thoughts perfectly :D thank you for existing, you're such an amazing person!!!!
I really like a normal attitude from a fellow vegan. I don't eat honey, never have since I'm allergic to it, but you make a really good point, veganism is not about what some mentally problematic individuals with borderline disorders and need for strict rules make it to be. It's about world with least amount of suffering for all. We all eat plants that come from earth, but in order to plant or harvest them you will kill a certain number of bugs, worms etc. When you walk you will step on ants, even though you don't want to. If I were to be 100% pure vegan as some describe it I would have to not eat anything and probably not move around either. And about plants not feeling pain or being sentient, something a lot of vegans use as their primary motive in setting the boundary of what is acceptable in veganism (I'm referring to a clams, mussels debate), new research show that plants can hear themselves being eaten and produce oily substances to protect themselves. Now that is a pretty decent sign of self recognition and self preservation drive. And if you say, ok, but that is just a auditory reflex, mussels also don't have CNS and all they can do is based on simple monosynaptic reflexes. (I don't eat mussels btw, I am a " proper vegan" which is the most stupid term in the world). My point is, to be the kindest person you can be to the world around you at the given moment, and respect each life to the fullest of your abilities, to me that is veganism