PS Audio PowerPlant P12 AC Regenerator Review: Amplifier Testing
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 24 ส.ค. 2024
- Follow up measurements and review of PS Audio PowerPlant P12 AC Regen with power amplifiers (including impedance measurements). Also responding to company statements regarding my review and operation of the unit.
Discussion thread: www.audioscien...
Part 1 Video: • PS Audio PowerPlant P1...
I love Amir’s ability to keep the conversation respectful, yet brutally honest.
I lova Amir's ability to be brutal, backed by science.
So his response was essentially that bad product documentation is irrelevant because his average customer has more money than sense.
Where can we see his response?
Thanks for your honest review. I too bought a PS300 years ago and after a year realized it did absolutely nothing.
Snake oil is hard to overcome.
🤣🤣 how much did you pay for it?
1 cent would be too much......
Amir is for the people. I appreciate this type of content endlessly. Protecting people's wallets and helping direct them toward items objectively better, it doesn't get much more considerate! It breaks my heart a bit that people try to tear down ASR because they don't like the feedback, but not terribly surprising when many of these companies profit off of ignorance
Thank you so much Curtis. I almost didn't post this second video thinking people wouldn't be interested in it. Seeing otherwise motivates me to do more.
Very true! You know Amir is fighting for us and there are a big industry trying to protect their business. For a company like PS Audio it will be very hard to admit that they been wrong for 3 decades or what it is. Even people that have bought into this snake oil might try to protect their investment. A guy like Paul know a lot about audio and it is a shame he buy into stuff that does not matter or make things worse. My advice is to stay away from companies or audio sellers that try to sell you cables or other snake oil. Some of them even believe inn it but then they are not audiophiles but audiofools.
@@AudioScienceReview oh it is appreciated a LOT. Started plenty of discussions as well. People hate being ripped off.
Ignorance is bliss lol . I'm glad this channel exists too
@@AudioScienceReview Its most definitely something we are all interested in. You are an invaluable addition to the HiFi community due to your transparency and attention to detail, something that is severely lacking within the HiFi industry. More so is this industry saturated with vacuous claims based on subjectivity, which although not irrelevant as taste in sound is specific to the individual... however, subjectivity is easily manipulated for marketing purposes and flogging expensive products which do absolutely nothing and can actually degrade sound quality in some cases! You address the product from a objective performance standpoint via testing which is exactly what we need more of. Thank you Amir.
This stuff gets complicated quickly. Thanks for thoroughly debunking the claims of charlatans. It’s a great service to audiophiles. 👍
He didn’t debunk any claims. Only the claims that his site is legit (which it is not). Tests made no sense.
What did he "debunk" not 1 live test? Nothing more than pre-made graphs. You don't know where these graph figures came from (what component was hooked to it) if it was manipulated. There was no LIVE testing on the video, yet you accept it because it sides with your opinion and you believe in him like Santa Claus (good grief). Not saying there's proof some of it isn't true, but the same on the other end (argument) of high audio manufacturer claims. I do not fall into a hole believing either side without witnessing/experiencing it myself.
Hell, maybe I'll post videos with graphs and have the neighbor's 5 year old kid take a crayon and draw squiggly lines on the chart then people WILL believe it as something true. Just like I don't believe specs of a product that manufacturers put out on their product page.
Hello sheep on both sides of the coin... 🐑🐑🪙🐑🐑
You bring so much light to this world. Thank you Amir for doing all this work.
Paul is evil for demanding you apologize when he is the one taking advantage of people's emotionally driven purchases by lying them and bullying anyone who dares object to his false claims. He should be the one apologizing and more.
I can't wait to see more measurements of big companies' gear.
Paul demanded that Amir apologize?
I've been out of the loop, where do I find that
@@TheMatsushitaMan Check 22:44 in video. I don't have the link for the source though. It looks like it is on PS Audio's product page.
Sometimes I spend the day talking to humble, intelligent people who apply careful methodical processes to solve genuinely important and complex global problems at billion dollar companies, and then I get into the audiophile world in my spare time and to be blunt it feels like stepping into dog poop every time lol. These low quality engineers and business people wouldn't last a day in a demanding environment. It annoys me to even think about arguing with people like that... you're a champ for doing it. You have emotional strength and patience that I can't match even if I tried. :( With respect to the thermistor.. from that overactor Paul the idea was that the thermistor was supposed to be bypassed by a relay some time after power on? But it doesn't seem like this is what happens? They'd need a fast current monitor for that, which would disconnect the bypass relay during a huge inrush peak and then reconnect it some time later. Since the differential between inrush and "normal" peak power of an amp is typically more than 10x, it should be doable.. however, it doesn't seem like that's what they're doing. It seems that the power is always routed through the thermistor? Absurd. If their engineers were smarter, they'd do what my $15k AC power supply does and current limit on a cycle by cycle basis on the power regeneration side. This way you guarantee lowest possible impedance and no relay-related issues to worry about. It's not surprising that for products costing as much as they do, their engineering is not even in the same league as proper industrial manufacturers. I guess it doesn't matter to them as long as they keep getting new members to join their cult. :/ -Nick
Yeh, I don't think they know what the design is really doing. Someone guessed that it may have been contracted out. That would explain why we are not hearing the proper technical solution. As to rely, the unit was left on quite a while before and during testing. No way it is bypassing anything after power on.
@@AudioScienceReview Makes sense. I was more thinking of the idea of allowing the device to provide thermistor protection at any arbitrary point just by detecting current above some very high threshold, which would allow users to turn stuff on and off freely. Basic thermistor + relay soft start design is something you could find in a lot of consumer electronics.. many CRT TVs and monitors back in the day had that exact circuit. You'd expect more from a modern design at these price points. You've kindly biased your analysis in their favor by using an amp that could conceivably benefit from this product. However, any well-built amp will have far more than enough capacitance to be immune from line current issues for virtually any music material. I tried to argue this point with some people as a way to disqualify the need for fancy power cables.. but placebo is too strong I guess. You can show them the caps. You can calculate the time constants. You can explain that transistors will grab power from the lowest impedance source, which will be the caps by an order of magnitude... but no. Must... have... shiny... $10k... power cords... haha
I have no idea what you just said but you seem like a smart guy....🙋
@@dihydrotestosterone Thanks but not really haha. Amir knows more stuff and is more experienced with audio. :) Unfortunately, the kinds of things that audiophile companies fail at, tend to be pretty basic. Cute dog icon btw!
Happy to read someone who feel like I do with thoses BS claims and poor design. The issue is that audiophile likes thoses magic stuff, so "expert" audiophile youtubers keep talking hours about how great this powercables is and how it changed his equipment from good to amazing, same with so many parts like linear powersupply,usb cables,audiophile switch.
The key element as Amir points out is that decent equipment is extremely well filtered. Power line "conditioners" are a waste of money.
Maybe this device is only good for people who live in a house with a lack of clean power?
"They" can put it through a washing machine then, if its that "dirty"..... hang it up on a "power line" to dry slowly 😂💰😂💰😂💰😂💰😂
Reasons enough that I will NEVER put my money down for any PS Audio product. Thanks Amir for exposing the charlatans at PSA.
THEY SHOULD BE REPORTED TO THE POLICE.......Obtaining money by deception....(fraud) if "paul" tried this in uk or europe, he would be in prision on an extradition warrent...... we dont like thieves and fraudsters.....
Ps audio..... thieving company......
Always check who owns what company before you buy products, as when "paul" comes out of prision, he will start up a new company, and guess he will also change his name, but people know him now in the industry....... he should get atleast 20 years, and depending how COPABLE his son is in all of this, he too will be in jail also....... father and son in the same cell together, how sweet 😋
Absolutely amazing! The analysis of PS Audio‘s (i.e., Paul’s) desastrous (honestly, embarrassing) public communication takes this to a new level. You really expose EVERYTHING that‘s wrong with bogus high-end audio, including the rhetoric and the behavioural aspects. Thank you so much. We need someone who is so absolutely independent and does not need to make any money with this type of testing.
To spread the good word even more, you could consider monetizing, though. TH-cam pushes monetized videos much more. You could donate all revenues and still credibly claim that you’re not in it for the money. Just a thought. I‘ll watch/read and love anything you do, anyway.
Thanks a bunch. Yes, it is a challenge with youtube promotion. Still, I think it is best to not give an excuse to the other side that I am doing this for money.
You have no clue! Completely wrong. Maybe with sh~tty gear like yours it makes no difference. I can tell you that every other real and serious audiophile knows how well this gear works.
@@Fluterra have you seen Amirs system, it’s far from shitty. Please tell me you haven’t got any Ps audio equipment. Spill the beans, I could do with cheering up. Just had covid !.
@@r423sdex hahaha, based on this "review" I can tell you Amirs system sucks. He doesn't have a CLUE what he is talking about. The entire forum/site is garbage.
@@Fluterra it’s not a really a review, more like what the f... is the point of this. Are you dull enough to own one ?
This is an excellent & thorough scientific analysis. I'm one of those electronics engineers who had doubts about the validity of power regeneration for audio. Much of what PS audio does is genuine and plausible and yes over the top as to what's actually needed. When you take things too far at inaudible levels then psychology becomes the dominant factor. All credit to you for doing these tests. Ethan Winer is another technician who proved to me my gut instinct was right.
Thank you very much Amir. I've been involved with audio, both professional and consumer, for 65 years+. Have been made a little nuts over the past 40+ years by the confusion perpetrated by the high-end audio business (both manufacturers, and many [newer] magazines. You're performing an invaluable service to those of us who love listening to music via good equipment, restoring audio reviewing to what it was in the 1950s and '60s, before so much "high-end" audio became an over-priced game that tended to (psychologically) interfere with the joy of listening to recorded music. Again, thank you very much!!!
I worked in the microwave telecommunications industry for many years. Performance of our products were largely dictated by custmers needs, so test data was necessarily supplied with each and every item. And when product failed to meet expected performance, corrective action was mandatory, or there were finacial penalties as well as damaged reputations. I would think that a item as expensive as the P12 might come with test data. Yeah, you can call me a dreamer.
If PS Audio were ISO certified there wouldn't be any of this nonsense.
Good example.
Expectations, performance, proof.
I recall buying a Nak tape deck in the 80's ... without a word the dealer opens the box, sets up and measures my individual tape deck frequency response, ... prints out the readout, places that back inside the box... then you get the component.
HF performance was vital.
PS Audio's execution here is just bad.
Just curious, how would PS Audio being ISO certified change things? What would that mean if they were? What is the outcome of a company like PS Audio being ISO certified? Can you explain that?
It's NOT bad....... it's BISMALL
I appreciate the obvious frustration you felt when Paul replied to your review. Keep at it. Real measurements by real equipment is the way to go. As someone who has spent years testing things in the lab I really appreciate your honesty.
When I first noticed you were reviewing this product, I was tempted to not watch it. Mostly because my technical experience tells me it will not do what it claims to do. So many reviewers will say it's wonderful and adds so much to the sound it makes me want to cry!
I must say I was so pleased I did watch and was delighted by your honest and sensible analysis of the results. Sadly, many audiophiles think, if it looks good, costs a shit load of money, easily baffled by the manufactures fantasy specifications, well, it's gotta be good!
After you sold a kidney to purchase such a device you WILL be convinced it improves the sound.
The audio industry is bulging at the seams with snake oil and so it will continue for as long as some people have too much money.
Very well summarized.
A fool and his money are eaisily parted........... ☹️
There was a time I was watching Paul's videos with advices - but then I stopped when he started talking about things, he knows less than me.
Now I am watching Amir's video.
The biggest difference is:
- Paul is arrogant
- Amir is confident
I will stay with confident person rather than with arrogant.
Most importantly, truthful
Every time I listen to the NAD T758 V3, I remember it was one of the worst things you tested - many thanks for that 😊 But at least now I can keep volume at -6, and you also mentioned the noise floor was the worst thing with this, which I'm okay with currently. Point being the feedback you provide is valuable above and beyond a simple review
45 minutes of electronics investigation that I find more interesting, by virtue of the quality of the logical discussion, than 98% of available entertainment.
With respect to something relatable about psycho acoustics; people are familiar with mistaking a common sound with something else, a person alone in a home might convince themselves that a branch scratching on a window is a prowler. If a shadow accompanies the sound the effect can be alarming, our senses are fully given to being controlled by imagination.
Last, a question for Amir; concerning the build and parts and manufacturing costs, what do you guess is the margin on one of these at $5500? It may illuminate the position of the company CEO. The writer Upton Sinclair reminds us, "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it."
lol yes
I havent seen inside one, but the parts and machining costs of a batch of cases can't come to more than a 1,000$/unit..... how much does a 800w mono or bridged amp cost, as that is what this is basically......
Take for example Schiit: After backlash from measurements, they now take those seriously and make some good equipment for good prices.
They are really a model for companies like PS Audio to follow. Schiit came kicking and screaming but did come.
Love my Lyr3 and Lokius! Amazing performance
PS audio is gonna be releasing a new product called the BS12. It's meant specifically for power regenerators like the B12 to be plugged into so the regenerator can get even cleaner power than before. They will also sell an optional rack with 6 spots so you can fit 6 BS12s together and chain them so that your power gets cleaned 6 times before it even reaches the P12 to have the cleanest power ever. Each BS12 will be much cheaper than a P12 at 5k a piece.
Yeh, it is a missed opportunity for them to not build a regen to power this regen. After all, if this is just a linear amp, and no amp can be perfect without an AC cleaner, they need to second one in the chain!!! :D
LOL. I love the name BS12.
I want 10 of them BS12's....... sign me up, and if you sprey them gold, you can add another 1,000$ per unit.....
Thanks Paul.... 😂💰😂💰😂💰😂💰
I like your words:.
"Measurement has VALUE."
Very insighfule. Thank you.
Brilliant follow up. Love your process, measurements don’t lie, and thank you for your listening test to put this snake oil to bed once and for all.
I adhere to your science philosophy. I personally believe companies that publish false information such as PS Audio should be taken to task. I also have a relatively high end system, but will not incorporate snake oil into it. I hope you keep up this absolutely necessary WORK that you do so well, Amir
Taken to task?.....
I HOPE EVERYONE SENDS THEIR UNITS BACK FOR A FULL REFUND INCLUDING POSTAGE......
I SEE A CLASS ACTION LAW SUITE COMING FROM PS AUDIOS CUSTOMERS......
Thieving lieing company that obtains money by deception, thats basically fraud and deception which are criminal offences in MY COUNTRY.....
Why nobody informs the police is beyond my understanding, how many units were sold/people conned and lied to?......
Welcome to the "american dream" where lies and obtaining money by deception is freely permissible....... oh, did i tell you about my "power strip" that i paid 5$ for and sprey it gold and charge 1,000$ for (plus postage).....?
I am a Power Engineer for many years - and I thank you for this video. I just can’t believe 7mOhms output impedance - just crazy spec!
I had some of their products in the past (about 20 years ago), there was a lot of hype at the time, it was the new market opportunity for "high end" companies. After trying and living with a few power products from different companies including PS Audio, I realized, after long time subjectively observations, that it was all hype and many of those worsen the sound. I never looked back... I now do have some simple pro Furman units ($150 to $200) mostly to protect my audio and computer gear from possible surges, but nothing more. As usual, amazing work Amir in bringing reality into high end audio!
Whatever respect I had for PS Audio and Paul just went out the window. Thanks for saving me a big chunk of money.
I didn't like the way Paul answered Amir either..... 🤔😒
@John Bravo someone once pointed out McClown saying painting CDs green will make them sound better. PoS Audio I think.
Paul doesn't know much about audio at all. He knows about as much as a high audio store salesman. Knows enough basics but mixes in a whole lot of false info and fairy tale.
@@kinasc1575 "someone"? ... "I think"? ... Wow, nothing like having conviction in your statement to make it believable.
@@BumpNrun69 the "I think" at the end wasn't anything to do with the main comment.
We both struggle in this world with soooo many sheeple with out ANY common science.
Keep up the great work!
Amir. Very simple have PS Audio show you their test results and their Test setup. I doubt if they can supply any data. Again thank you for calling out these manufactures that use smoke and mirrors to sell over priced boat anchors.
They are absolutely refusing to provide any measurements. Paul just said this in their forum: www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/ps-audio-p12-review-part-2-power-testing.31432/post-1115073
He keeps saying they have measured but of course we have not seen any measurements to counter mine, no specifications or documentation of said measurements. Really, nothing at all. Just a couple of numbers in their spec sheet.
The imagining of sound differences is fascinating. I’m starting to notice how vaguely people speak when they report improvements, and how uncertain they appear when making the claim. Thank you for this channel. I’m enjoying having one foot on a flat earth, and one not, and at this point in my education it’s okay to not be sure what is real. Hope this makes sense!
Amir, I'm glad that you did a little more testing. So the higher power outlet that intuitively is hooked up to the power amplifier has inrush limiting. Sounds like just a simple power NTC, possibly by Ametherm or similar. Coincidentally I just finished making a soft start circuit for a power tool that uses power NTC resistors. But after about three seconds I shunt the NTCs. You would think that for all the engineering and the asking price, that PS Audio wouldn't just leave the NTC in the circuit after startup.
I love how Paul will tell a little fib and that leads to a bigger fib and then he digs his heels in. Well maybe its kind of sad as many of us are rooting for him to do the right thing but a good portion of his business is built on sand. So what products are good and what products are bad? Its a shame that I have to be so suspicious but it is well founded. If PS Audio was truly honest about what they're selling they would be working with you instead of giving dismissive responses. He is one heck of a salesman and I think he may believe some his own fibs. Problem is, that's counter to good engineering. I've look at that product line as an environmental waste so if customers realize, I figure Paul has no one to blame but himself. He's had plenty of opportunities to do the right thing but his heels are dug in.
Very stressful, but I think you've been un-biased and let the cards fall, where they may. Thanks!
Thanks. I do think he believes in the myths he follows. I hope over time he starts to verify them objectively instead of continuing to drive the company this way. I have tested a lot of their products. The only one that did well was based on an ICE class D module. All the other ones mix up all these bad ideas floating around resulting in noisy/distorted products as opposed to transparent.
@@AudioScienceReview Amir, can I ask what product that was? I know that Paul's son Scott released a product called the Sprout several years ago and it was very well received and reviewed by the audio community. I believe that it was built around an ICE class D module. Is that the PS Audio product you are referring to there?
Glad I found your channel on TH-cam. You are the only reviewer out there that is objective and has the measurements to back up your reviews. I am not an electrical engineer but am easily able to understand what you are what you are conveying. Just like with the esoteric cables, according to the science, there is no need to waste money on a power conditioner. Thanks for saving me money and helping me enjoy the music system I have instead of spreading hype and instilling audio envy.
It’s a pleasure to listen to an intelligent human being. Thank you.
Hi, you are real thing !!! Appreciate so much of your truthfulness.
I have been listening to music using many gears for 26 years. Audiophiles used to spend money to have a very little improvement of sound.
Company prople make use of audiophiles want. So, we are exposed to risks.
Thank you so much. We need people like you, such an objective speaker.
There should be laws in america to protect people from these fraudsters... in my country, its called "obtaining money by deception" and because he took so much from so many, he would have got 20 years in prision......
In america, not 1 charge or any police interest in this scumbag...... i guess its a "way of life" in america...... so atleast i understand the "american dream" now, ....... con as many people out of their money by lieing and you are free to do so with complete police immunity and impunity 😋💰👍🏻😋💰👍🏻😋💰👍🏻😋💰👍🏻
Hey Samir! Love the website and channel man. I’ve made a number of purchases with your guidance as well as Audioholics. Our industry needs more people like you as everyone from enthusiasts to novices can appreciate the empirical data you provide in order to make educated buying decisions
Thank you so much Joseph. Makes the work worthwhile.
Yes, you can have a thank you from me too.
.....and me three 😂💰👍🏻...... im sure the rest of the world feels the same.
We are owe you a great deal for all of the money you have saved us from "con-men" like this paul and his company....... ps audio is now on our "banned list" for my friends and family and work colleagues who we all like to buy and show off audio products within our club...... amazing video... thank you Amir 🙂🙏👍🏻
I bought a P5 many years ago and can confirm it makes no difference to the listening (in my very high end HiFi chain). Now you've proved it beyond all doubt! It's funny that PS Audio market themselves as an honest company!
He may be honest. A lot of people quite honestly believe that their reaction to their bias effects are real audible differences. It's not intuitive and the experience is quite convincing. But where Paul McGowan and others fail is in their choice to willfully ignore the science of psychoacoustics. These folks can't say they are unawre of it. So one can be quite honest and woefully wrong about audio
It’s pretty sad what companies do. Mr. McGowan’s response is upsetting and he deserves the backlash
Unfortunate that he takes the respect and admiration that he gets from people for granted. Difference between reel and real couldn’t be more apparent
You did well Sir Amir. My respects 👍🏼
If he wants to earn respect then maybe he should stop at being a charlatan first.
Amir. You did great. So much due diligence has been covered by you and I consider you a trusted friend and appreciate your passion to pursue honesty and great performance from audio products.
Also. Your home system is beautiful and I love your STEALTH headphones. :)
Oh, that is so nice of you to say. Testing the Powerplant was a lot of work literally due to how heavy this beast is. It is so satisfying to see people appreciate the effort.
@@AudioScienceReview of course and what you’ve done for a lot of people (the consumer) is give them good honest buying power. People I guarantee don’t like science trickery. They would rather have honesty.
Now I’ve asked Paul McGowan if he could give me some feedback regarding the validity of your testing and so far it has been nothing but white noise. No response….yet.
@Nephilim-81
DEMAND your money back then for a product that was sold to you by means of fraud and deception, and can be legally found to be fraudulent means to obtain your money....
I mean, the machine is clearly junk anyway so you have nothing to loose....
See how your demand is answered?
"Please call customer services regarding any questions on our products"..... 😂💰👍🏻😂💰👍🏻😂💰👍🏻
I lost all respect for PS audio and I did think about buying one of their power amps
Their class d amps are ice power amps which aren't bad but not as good as hypex ncore or purifi. Also you can get any of these amps designs for far less money.
So you never experience it firsthand (listening to it), then made a clear concise judgement about the product? mm-hmm
@@BumpNrun69 no, if I could I would notice when my power company fires up extra burner or replaced nuclear fuel rods.
@@BumpNrun69 measurements dont lie
Our hobby needs people like Amir and audio science.
Great follow-up review Amir! The fact that you've performed additional measurements and a follow-up review after 24 pages of comments from members on your initial P12 review on ASR, refutes the claims made by detractors and critics of ASR and its members as being blindsighted by measurements. There are always a lot of questions raised and suggestions made by the members as well as dissenting opinions. But this is all part of a healthy scientific process. IMHO this is much more valuable than manufacturer claims and other review medias that expect you to believe their recommendations based on faith of their experience and their sense's abilities to reliability report their impressions; an overall very subjective and unscientific method. Like the great Carl Sagan said: "Faith is the belief in the absence of evidence". Something followers of Paul McGowan should take heed of.
Thanks and that is a great quote!
Every time I have heard a high resolution system that is using any type of mains regeneration I hear noise and distortion that should not be there. I completely agree with the results of this review
I want to also thank you for all your hard work again, this video clearly shows all the data and makes perfect sense. In my own opinion Paul should apologize to you and also to each and every one of his customers, who bought this device.
NO........ HE SHOULD RETURN EVERY CENT, AS HE USED DECEPTION AND LIES TO OBTAIN THEIR MONEY....
IN DECENT COUNTRIES THAT IS A CRIMINAL OFFENCE, in america it is a way of life.....
HAVE YOU NO LAWS OVERTHERE??????
Your passion to just look at the facts and ignore what our emotions want is a mindset that many people would benefit from. Keep up the great work.
Great Review! Always appreciate your transparent reviews!
I'd be happy if PS Audio said, we respect Amir's review, and we are going to start preparing a new wave of products that will be up to scratch. Thats all customers want to hear.
Very well said. Somehow they think being dismissive of independent public testing deals with the situation. I just hope that the message is being accepted internally and in a year or two we see better products.
@@AudioScienceReview Agreed, I'd like to see this test performance on all conditioners in the future, I know its tough to do all these tests. But, I'd be surprised if the Niagara 1200 that you tested failed to give more burst power, because the designer has claims this in every interview Ive heard from him. I have a Furman, and I think it was designed by the same guy now at AudioQuest. I swear my subs sound better in the conditioner vs the wall outlet. So if conditioning power is meaningless, the ability for this conditioners to provide more burst power is meaningful for amps and subs.
This is the problem I have. I love what Amir does. I also love what Paul does but what I don't like are personal attacks and obfuscation over a product that clearly wasn't designed properly.
They got caught and instead of admitting it and doing the right thing, they complained about Amir's scientific test. Ridiculous. They lost a customer and I hope others will follow.
Thank you for the additional work and video Amir. This sheds a lot more light on the product than your previous video and I am glad you took the time to follow up on some of the comments made.
I have designed power systems most of my life, longer than even Paul. There is no reason for you to apologize, you are absolutely right in every respect. I did do some research on SMPS in audio and must admit they like to have a near constant load, and would operate best that around 50% pulse width since there is then enough headroom to provide higher peak currents when called upon. Also, there is less interference generated when operated at a moderate level while remaining much more efficient. Therefore, rating an SMPS for twice the power required by the equipment is the obvious choice. It remains a much more cost-effective solution than their "linear" counterpart. Unfortunately, it does not regenerate a 50/60Hz a.c. that is what your mains input for your amplifier needs, having a mains transformer.
What you're right about ... among a lot of things ... is that "audiophiles" will latch onto to anything that is unreasonably expensive, where the manufacturer says it's "better". Marketing is fascinating but it's not just audio equipment, it's all kinds of products. Anyway ... thanks for the post.
Thanks for doing the measurements that confirm my gut feeling. I particularly liked that you measured the DC output from two different power supplies hooked up to the P12 cash generator. Sorry, regenerator.
@ProffAndy
BEST COMMENT THIS MONTH..... Top answer Professor Andy.... made me laugh so much 🤣👍🏻🤣👍🏻🤣👍🏻💰💰💰💰💰💰💰💰💰💰💰
Power cable wasn't broken in.😢
Incorrect amplifier was used for measurement.😂
You didn't do a listen test.🤣
You failed to pour on enough snake oil.😎
Thanks, Amir. You do great work.
No cable lifters either!
@@garethonthetube Yeh, lack of lifters was the biggest crime!!!
Thanks alot Amir, just subscribed to your channel mate...appreciate the all the effort. Always appreciate who cares to provide honest views and info with transparency. I'm no techie but I'm learning lots by just watching and listening.
Super. I am glad my content has usefulness this way. :)
I'm an electrical engineer who has been designing power distribution systems for many applications in many industries for over 40 years. These including manufacturing plants, laboratories, data centers, some of them mission critical so this is not an uninformed posting.
There are nine different categories of power anomalies. If your equipment has the quality of power supplies with good line and load regulation and adequate filtering the only anomaly that will kill you is a power outage or power outside of the range of the power supply's specified input power requirements. I've designed power distribution for some of the most sensitive equipment in the world including electron microscopes, mass spectrometers, HPLC, machines that photographed individual atoms, and many others. I NEVER had a problem even once that required a special power cord or power conditioner except for a UPS and backup generator for mission critical loads. The gold standard for UPSs is the double static conversion UPS. If you don't have a power quality problem or if your equipment is capable of dealing with the power anomalies you encounter then no type of power quality improvement product will make any difference. Determining power quality anomalies you have to deal with requires investigation. The distortion and noise in your test was clearly inherent in the amplifier you used for your tests.
Where I use UPSs my three go to manufacturers are Eaton, Liebert, and Mitsubishi. I think there is one double static conversion UPS from Eaton that will work on 240 volts AC single phase. The rest I've seen are all three phase for industrial use. All of those you see on the consumer market are line interactive types. They have much greater harmonic distortion but are perfectly good for your desktop PC. I never tried mine on audio equipment, never needed to but they might not work well.
Unless you can duplicate the power quality anomalies from your utility power you cannot evaluate the merits of a device that is intended to improve power quality. Therefore in selecting one you need to evaluate the advantages and disadvantages of a device you are considering. My power quality is excellent so I don't even consider buying one. IMO if you are paying big bucks for audio equipment that can't correct for 8 of the 9 power anomalies with it's own power supply then you have been cheated, you've bought a bad design. We don't expect it from a $300 HT receiver but for a $10,000 power amplifier it had better provide clean constant DC voltage with an absolute minimum of voltage drop, noise, ripple, and other anomalies under any conditions of operation including with highly reactive loads and high reverse EMF.
The measurements and specifications provided or published in this absurd industry are generally worthless. The proof is that there is no correlation between the measurements and the performance. Two amplifiers measuring identically on a test bench with 4 and 8 ohm resistive loads can perform very differently with an actual loudspeaker load. The measurements, the first thing I look at in a published review are mostly for entertainment as they really don't show what the equipment will do. They are a legacy from 80 years ago when they showed meaningful differences but are practically useless today. As for the testimonial reviews I consider them all but worthless. Even if I believed in their honesty I have no confidence in any of the reviewers.
You are making a very brave assumption. "If your equipment has the quality of power supplies...". Some amplifier manufacturers may intentionally make amplifiers with bad power supplies to facilitate sales of their "power regenerators". One particular manufacturer also admits:
1. They admit of not using swithing power supplies, despite saying there are good enought swithing power supplies.
2. Class D - very same thing as switching power supplies.
Very, very suspicious to me.
Nice done review with hard data to support findings. Thank you. Keep up the good work Amir.
Hi-Fi is so full of grifters.
0.008 ohms...? At a guess (and only a guess, but based on many years in electronics design) they are quoting the lowest possible on-resistance of the MOSFETs in the output driver stage. As a true measurement of the output impedance including any filters it is simply not credible without some further justification from PS Audio. Oh, and the pdf manual on their website says 0.005 ohms, so they are quoting two different figures...
Well said. I routinely see such specmanship from companies and folks believe them. Key is that no proper measurement is shown so the data is suspect.
@@AudioScienceReview Besides, they are now tampering in transmission line theory and I doubt they have the experience needed for impedance matching and optimum power transfer, insertion loss, reflection and the like.
I'd say Paul's gaslighting skills are as sharp as ever. Great work Amir!
Amir, thanks so much for being light to these darkness (BS) P12, now we are all awake to PS Audio.
The audio world need Amir’s… I use this channel before buying things and it saved me a lot of money 👍
Amir is wonderful. He's probably one of the single greatest resources out there for actual HONESTY and INTEGRITY when it comes to providing real information on audio products - information that consumers can actually rely on. Instead of scolding Amir for the work that he does, in reality, (if these audio companies where operating at a higher level) they would instead be HIRING him! He's doing the EXACT type of testing that THEY should be doing on their products before releasing them to market. He's providing the actual information that consumer need to see and review before they spend their hard-earned money on these technology products. Hats off to Amir and the work that he is doing with his detailed and technical reviews and analysis. Amir is a hero to consumers everywhere. What he is revealing with his work accurately tells the story of just exactly how much "snake oil" is really still out there in the world of high-end audio. Unfortunately, there is clearly FAR more than what most people realize.
Thanks Amir, you stand up for yourself. We need more of this
Amir Your review makes perfect sense. i had purchased a PS10 power regenerator. The thing just went up in smoke. i tried contacting paul and other chaps from psaudio who just exchanged pleasantries and did nothing.The unit is lying with the Distributor at mumbai who informs me that the Psaudio is demanding a huge amount of money for the spares. Mind you the unit was under warranty. My Connected equipment also was damaged. I just dont know how theses chaps get away with selling phoney stuff. BUYERS BEWARE
Every time you do one of these debunking video's you leave me thinking, how's someone gunna get out of this one...
I am SO THANKFUL to you for your efforts in measuring audio equipment against the manufacturer claims!! IT has saved me money and I have happily donated to your site. If nothing else, it is an impetus for audio companies to show their true character. I hope it will make people more accountable and responsible to their customers and general public. It helps me make purchasing decisions and therefore gain a better listening experience! Thanks again Amir!
That's very kind of you to say. Indeed a number of manufacturers are supportive of what we are doing and the list is growing daily. Question for PS Audio is whether they also adopt this new world of transparency and reliability of specifications or not. Right now they are in the "not" category which is unfortunate.
Thank you, Sir. U The Man. Thank you for remanding the trip lite.
Very bad look for Paul and PS Audio. Thanks for the review and videos! Incredibly thorough
Yeh, I just can't fathom their playbook. I think they are thinking I am some youtuber that said something negative so they can just be dismissive and it will go away. They are also underestimating how many people value objective data. They are living in the past, not present.
PS Audio is so full of hot air.
I concord, I now remember having seen some PS Audio videos.
As an EE I got so angry listening to the sloppy, when not totally wrong, exposition of technical topics that I made sure I never watch another one.
BS Audio
I was actually looking at this product to buy and you just saved me $7500au I’m glad I stumbled on this channel
It's a shame really because as you show with your personal system, many people in this hobby are willing to spend oodles of money on gear if it performs. Treating people who simply measure your equipment in such a patronizing and combative way tarnishes your brand. Just make products that perform well and be honest about what they do.
Would love to see you showing your tests to the various people who make the products that you test and watch the expressions on their faces and what they have to say in the room with you,the product,testing gear etc live. That would be incredibly informative as well as entertaining.
Let me know when Paul apologizes. I wonder if he will refund his customers? If anything a class action suit is possible. At $5 K apiece, it could be monumental.
It's a bit ridiculous that they seem to actually lie when questioned.
Great video Amir. Just found this channel, and it's informative, precise and clear.
Using an NTC to limit inrush current is very common, but, given the dynamic characteristics of the load, they should have done it properly and also use a relay (or a SSR or whatever) to short the NTC after a short while and keep it closed until the current would drop to low values.
This is not rocket science for a competent electronics designer, but of course it costs money in design, components and testing.
Not that they are giving away their stuff for peanuts.
Also the choice of output voltages in the transformer and feedback should take care of that since it’s in “regulation.” Basically you would use a step up transformer to get the rail voltages well above what’s required so it doesn’t run out of steam when there is a sudden demand. In reality the output impedance should be low since the regenerator is claimed to be acting as an impedance matching device to regulate the load. There are also other lazier ways to keep the NTC warm like stuffing a PTC thermistor next to it with some shrink tubing so it stays hot even when there is no load. Still they do have a fair amount of resistance even in their operating region.
Peanuts, yes. My thought exactly. This is a high-cost product that's presumably performing a high-value service, and yet it seems that the people who make and sell it can't be bothered to check and see if it works as advertised! For a premium product at a very premium price, I'd call that a fail.
I have several battery-powered AC power supplies that are made to the UL 1741 specification, that replaces "old" technology like fuses with "new" technology like microcontroller supervision. Compared to opening up tricky packaging and then breaking out the soldering iron because not socketing the fuse saves the maker a fraction of a cent, just pressing a button on a control panel is a whole lot easier for the user! And these aren't overly expensive products.
Right now we're at the point where MCU-based controls are being made as cheaply as electromechanical ones. In this case, the same MCU that runs the front panel entertainment system could be used to control circuit breaker operation on all four channels, and control inrush current far more precisely by actually monitoring the load. Power sequencing, no extra charge!
Remember Pound Puppies? Cabbage Patch Kids? They were just rag dolls that cost next to nothing to make. They were sold for more than that mainly because they came with a story. They were for children. Is a story about believing in magic really worth $5000 for an otherwise useless component?
Very informative, like the logic you use in your testing process. Thanks for giving us good look at these products!! PS Audio's response is the typical response when they can't back up their responses with measurements, etc. Sounds like they're just deflecting and talking down to you ... not the mark of a company I'd do business with. As it stands I'll be staying clear of PS Audio.
"Amplifiers sound better with 7.5% lower power" - Paul McGowan, probably 😏
PS Audio responds poorly to any criticism on its own TH-cam channel, which I no longer watch.
I dread to think what the long-awaited and doubtless over-priced loudspeakers will sound like. I'm in the UK and unlikely to ever listen to the products. Thanks again for your efforts. BTW he does use his ears as the ultimate measuring instruments ...
I had to unsubscribe from the Ps Audio channel also, mostly because some lousy and short “answers” so otherwise excellent questions. Maybe Amir needs to make a channel just answering the same questions.
Whoever takes care of their U-Toob presence has removed several of my critical comments under Paul McGowan's videos. They simply do not tolerate dissenting opinions.
@@editorjuno I just think audiophiles hear differently….at least that is the type of videos I see on his channel.
@@MassimoTava -- They think they hear differently, but it's mostly psychological. The "high end" audio hucksters both encourage and profit from that "If you can't hear the difference you're not a true audiophile" line of b00|$hit.
Thank you amir.. its great to listen to you..
PS Audio still maintains the 0.008% Ohm output impedance in the P12 specification and claims unstrained dynamics on their website. 20 years ago I almost bought two of their power regenerators. I'm glad I didn't.
It is amazing that after all this, they still have not explained or shown how they computed that number. Clearly now they have admitted to high impedance of the HC port but they refuse to update the spec or the manual as you state.
@@AudioScienceReview Thanks to you now we have the facts. Paul McGowan is a marketing man, and he's been successful at the art of exploring the wishes and needs of a certain part of the market. He's not alone in that. Part of the problem is the consumer audio world likes to believe, and placebo will make a difference, as you rightly point out. Perhaps another part is a certain amount of doubt among audiophiles. There's the suspicion of measurements that may have originated when transistors measured better than tubes, but still sounded worse.
@@AudioScienceReview
... "high impedance of the high current port" ...
Even after all this, reading that elicits cognitive dissonance!
Years ago I purchased an Adcom ACE-615. With or without no difference in sound, the best thing it is good for is switching my components on and off...
Hey, I bought an ACE-315 almost 20 years ago. I bought it for its non-sacrificial power surge protection technology feature. Same here, I never noticed an improvement in sound. Look at the bright side of it though, it's not current limiting and it adds a layer of protection to your gear.
Excellent and appreciated work Amir, not that I would ever consider purchasing anything from that company, you've only to see McGowan's videos, and that, if people have enough sense, should be plenty to put you off his companies products.
Amir, you are the most important guy in the audio industry. Shame that respectable copmpanies choose this unscientific path.
I know pretty much all the audio reviews and Amir is the best there is. There is another who is very good for speakers and that is Erin's Audio Corner. He does measurements as well.
@@sergeysmelnik -- Those two guys are heroes IMO.
Amir, thank you so much for doing this. Though many things you said are beyond my high school physics understanding; you're bringing into the discussion measurable data that are both accurate and precise. And I trust these data more than any emotive and subjective observations.
Thank you so much Luke. Takes so much effort to deal with all the objections and complains that it is nice to see comments like this.
@ Luke
"Quantifiable" is the word i would use...
Im sorry that so many people were conned by this guy paying 5.5k for a 800w equivelent amplifier, whose total parts and construction couldnt cost more than 500$......
Strike "PS Audio" off your list, and hope that guy doesn't start another company after this one goes bust....
He should be reported to rhe police for "obtaining money by deception (i.e Fraud) which in my country is a criminal offence, i guess in yours its just a way of life....... the "american dream"..... con people out of their money.....
Best thing I saw there was, "You can't make your food taste better by washing your dishes multiple times."
it could clean up the sine wave but no way it's not gonna effect the output of your equipment. but if you know about electricity you already know that.
now if you have really dirty power that has surges, brown outs or frequency fluctuations it could be better for the lifespan of the electronics. but at that point you've got bigger problems and need to contact your power company.
Exactly. Reality is that people who buy such gear rave about how good their sound is. Then they go and buy something like this and say that it got even better. So they did not have any power problems to begin with.
Made a comment on the last video, and after watching this and even prior to this because of Amir I have saved 1000's of dollars. I honestly cannot imagine how a company can say anything about their customers saving money. I mean that's against the notion of business we understand, but if you plan on building something let it do something that is beneficial. Dont offer to sell me something so expensive and provides no benefit, shown here causes actual harm.
Additionally, I still cant believe we are still discussing this matter after we see the testing done with your machine which generates an extremely dirty power and see no difference in the devices measurements. Not sure what it's going to take to resolve this, I feel as though if God himself came down and told you it makes no difference you would question him LOL
Well said. You would have thought the original review as good enough to show ineffectiveness in countless situations. At least we completed the story so they can't say you didn't test this or that. Courtesy of them, there is now tons more data they have to counter (if they can).
Thank you Amir. Glad to have you debunking and exposing all the high end audio snake oil.
I just watched the response video from PS audio, poor Bob! Thrown under the bus. This seems like a marketing hype problem. Pushing for a selling point, whilst not completely understanding the technicalities. Good work Amir to call out the BS. Lessons learnt in the industry.
Thanks for your review. The public needs to see the real data. Congratulations on your system. It's very nice. Have you ever looked at the Plixar BAC or BDC products. Different engineering. Check out the BAC 3000
if anyone needs to apologize, it's PS Audio to the people that bought this device..
That's an interesting reason for labelling an output as being for high current devices.
Thanks for making these tests, they are very helpful. I was about to pull the trigger on the P12 over the weekend until I viewed this video as well as the PS Audio response which was not convincing at all. I've been trying to fix a sound degradation that occurs on a daily basis between 4pm and 9pm for the past five years. Listening experience drops from a 10 to a 3 or 4 out of 10. Dedicated lines, DC Blocker, Torus RM20, nothing works! When I have friends over at this time, they notice the muffled sound, then if they stay long enough in the evening, sound clears up. It very frustrating since this is the time when I do most listening... I was thinking maybe it's THD or that there is a TV and communications antenna about 4km from my place, could this have an influence on sound quality? Don't know what to do next... suggestions?
Have you considered trying a Stromtank? My understanding is that this is essentially a massive battery that allows you to charge it up and run your entire system off of it, 100% separated from the AC power coming in from the wall. If you're issue is power related, then this would certainly isolate you from that once and for all. If you tried one of these and the problem persisted, then you could say definitively that your problem was caused by some type of interference, completely unrelated to your AC power lines. Just a thought.
@mechoui999
What is "popular" in your neighbourhood between the hours of 4pm till 9pm ?.....
Im thinking some kind of shop or service that operates between them times..... 5 hours duration
Are there any ham radios, or cb radios nearby, perhaps this is some kind of radio interference, or even some faulty choke in a striplight..... a sign perhaps, .....?
Report to police as you have a right to enjoy your life, and "something" is interfering with your rights as a citizen....
It could even be huge bulbs irradiating interference whilst growing marijuana plants in peoples lofts, or machines used to make "meth amphetamines".... whatever it is, it is unusual, and illeagal and not the "norm" for electrical equipement, so it's "jerry rigged" to do something illeagal.....
Yep, go to your local police station.
I like how they have a ethernet port on a glorified power strip, what kind of software updates are they going to send to this thing? Another fine product from BS Audio.
PS Audio has proven to be a snake oil at best, if you're lucky. At least their CEO is competent enough to give a healthcare advices on his show.
Hmm, the PS response were sufficient to have me unsubscribe from their channel.
Thank you very much for this thorough and intelligent review, Amir.
My pleasure! Thanks for watching and commenting.
You just saved me $2,600! Was just about to get the PowerPlant 3 for my headphone setup and decided to do some research 🧐 thank you 🙏🏻
Glad I could help!
'BS' Audio usually ignores bad reviews. But this time Paul has chosen to try to fight back. Right Paul, just keep punching the tar baby...
Amir: "Doesn't Do Anything Useful." DDAU. Hee hee hee, ha ha.
That was terrific. I have an idea, ask Paul to send you his new speakers for a review....I bet he would chicken out! #snakeoil
That would be something else. There is certainly demand to get it measured. I will wait until they build smaller ones and someone sends one in for testing.
I'll bet they're gonna be bright as hell as his current Infinitys are and paul cant hear probably past 9 to 10khz
Great review Amir. I have a feeling the reason Amir didn't do a blind test is that he won't let anybody touch his babies without him looking at what they are doing....if I had those I wouldn't either , wow
Fabulous review !!!