"Git Gud"
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 6 ต.ค. 2024
- I talk about "git gud" and other ways people attack each other online.
p.s. I know I kept calling Elden Ring 'Elder Ring'. I am very bad at names, for people and games.
Videos I reference:
Top Five Modern RPG Masterclass: • Top Five Modern RPG Ma...
"Bad Games": • "Bad Games"
Fallout TV Show: • Fallout TV Show
Career Advice From Adam Savage: • Career Advice From Ada...
"Skill issue" appears to be the hip thing to say as well.
In my experience "skill issue" has been a lot better for a number of reasons.
The main one being that it's not a demand like "get good" is. Like, if you're telling someone to "get good", you're scolding them and saying they _need_ to get better. Meanwhile if you're saying "skill issue", the ball is in their court as to whether they actually go out and solve the issue. It's not much of an attack in that sense.
In a way it's also a lot more specific, because then you can transition into describing the skill and why it's an issue. Or you can even begin looking into _why_ that skill is lacking in the first place; maybe something was lost along the way. There's also a rather ironic element to saying something almost impossible to avoid is a "skill issue", similar to the "good gaming chair" meme. People have done that with git gud but it felt rather off
It's typically more constructive criticism than anything.
@@Hrogthar Indeed, but a lot of folks suck at taking constructive criticism. Had the misfortune of trying to explain where/at what level skill bar for a given software tool was set, and that some specific complaints were more about not having the skill-prereqs as opposed to the software itself being bad. (Not my software, not my area of support, just trying to be helpful to fellow dev-users.) I got accused of declaring "skill issue" and all my breakdowns/explanations were ignored. Some folks don't actually want help, they just want to complain 🤷♀
@@lamegamertimeskill issue has only been used in the most toxic ways
@@lancemartinez1130 "Only"?
git: 'gud' is not a git command. See 'git --help'.
Game developers us source safe instead of git
@@chunckyfreshnut opinion discarded
Yeah, was hoping it was a talk on version control with game development
git is overrated
The reference to the "'nuff said" habit threw me for a loop. Memories of long-forgotten pointless internet arguments from my younger years just came flooding back. It's like weapons-grade anti-nostalgia.
I remember running into that phrase when I was wayyyy too young and kept thinking "Who is Nuff?"
"News groups" is the part that made me feel old. Nuff said. 😂
I kinda want to bring it back now... =)
"Anti-nostalgia" could also be described as a reminder to always grow forward, but your way is certainly succinct!
Git gud at rose tinted glasses game. Nuff said.
Reminds me when you're having a bug or performance issue in a game that's well known and someone pops out and says "I don't have any bugs or performance issues, must be a problem with your PC". Drives me insane
Ah yes. The classic "My $3000 rig runs the game just fine". Gotta hate that one.
"I have a sandwich, no one in the world is starving" vibes
Why is there a fire truck blocking my driveway? My house isn't on fire!
That's particularly annoying when it's bullshit, which you can easily deduce by comparing your own experience against other footage/benchmarks of a game to see whether the same issues are present.
Digital Foundry will put a video out explaining why X game is stuttering and how it's a problem with the engine's asset streaming pipeline or whatever, and you'll still always have that one guy like "lmao runs fine on my 4090, time to upgrade your rig bro."
Oh man, the "I don't have this issue, therefore the issue does not actually exist and can only be an inherent flaw present in you and/or your PC/car/console/etc." crowd is such garbage.
A couple decades ago, there was an Unreal Tournament total conversion called Thievery. It took the gameplay of Thief, but made it multi-player, pitting a group of thieves against the map's guards.
It was this wonderful combination of team vs team play, with one side playing stealth combat (or not! you can try to ghost the guards), and the other protecting the treasure (major spots, but then also small treasure around the map). All of it taking place in the steampunk/medieval world of Thief aesthetic.
Guards were VERY capable in combat, so toe-to-toe fighting wasn't normally feasible, but Thieves could knock them out if they could stay unseen, etc. Each side had an array of tools to take each other on in this way.
Player skill was a huge factor in the game. There were some bugs like being able to blackjack and knock out a Guard even when you are facing him, because if you got close enough your arm swing reach counted as being "behind his head". There were other things, like invincible spots or equipment quirks.
What ended up happening was the skilled veterans (which included the creators) would basically destroy any new player using the bugs. Any new players coming in would try to play, get completely destroyed in weird ways that went against the theme and logic of the game, and when they asked what was happening or if this bug should get fixed, the veterans playing the game would just say:
"Git gud."
In fact, I'm actually pretty certain this was the first time I'd heard of this term in this spelling.
As with most multi-player games that don't get any advancement (for fear of screwing up the meta by fixing bugs), old players will eventually dwindle as they move on.
However, the handful (literal handful by the end... barely enough to people active to play a single game), would STILL completely destroy and push out any new players trying out the game.
Either to capture that fleeting moment of dominance, or because they felt the "purity" of the struggle of learning the bugs and meta needed to be enforced, they refused to be welcoming for new players.
Until the message boards were just a ghost town of posts like "Anyone want to play?" and "Anyone seen X lately?".
I can see gatekeeping to preserve the integrity of a game. But that's when it involves more tangible things like established themes, story, gameplay style, etc. Not when it's based on absurd bugs being left in so a handful of people can feel superior.
The loss of proper Stealth game mechanics, and the Stealth-focused team pvp styles are my biggest disappointment from the last two decades of gaming. It was ahead of its time.
That mod sounds like I would have loved it, going to look into it. Thanks for the mention!
OMG, I've seen this scenario play out a few times over the years. Those same players complain about the dying community they killed. 🤣
become proficient.
develop skillset
Learn to play
Acquire competence, perhaps?
Obtain aptitude
I read that with the cadence and the voice of the return to monkey memes
‘nuff said’ was the original ‘mic drop’
I associate it with Stan Lee; I wonder if he's part of why it was big on the net.
@@lonnie6954 Probably. The nerds that filled early Usenet were a lot of the same nerds in comic book letter columns and fanzines.
@@lonnie6954 Git Gud True Believers!
No cap
@@erraticonteuse Yes, Usenet had a lot of nerds & geeks, but of various flavors. And 'nuff said is Black/Af-Am - dates back at least to the late 50s/early 60s in books & film.
“Git gud” is such a meme in the soulsborne community, it started out as people being mean, then it turned into a reasonable thing that you could extrapolate on to mean about how you build your character and time your parries, then it got memed by people who didn’t get that and now it’s just a dumb internet comment again :(
Same thing happened to "The cake is a lie." From insider knowledge (an inside joke, really) to internet meme divorced from the context of Portal.
I've been in the trenches of the soulsborne since demon's and I will admit I've had to git gud , hell I've been stone walled by several elements of the games including Elden Ring.
@@Ike_of_pyke that’s where the git gud came from for a while, people didn’t want to spoil the game, a soulslike game tends to have the “struggle” as part of the experience and spoiling that would completely ruin the game, but I think the “git gud” got co-opted along the way.
I like the positive "gid gud" = "be better by researching and experimenting" and avoid toxic "git gud" = "u r a looser". First one made me love the Souls game.
See I recall it being the end result of exhausted fans not wanting to answer the same question thats been asked a thousand times already. Eventually people just resorted to "git gud" because there was already tons of resources on how to overcome any challenge the game had by a certain point, and if a person wasnt willing to do a quick google search then that was their own problem. Eventually it just got warped into what it is today once other communities started using it.
Tim, you are absolutely right. I had the same conclusion lately - I stopped reading aggressive comments too (in my case, on social media).
Some people just want to argue, it gives them good hormones. I was surprised to discover this after so many years, but not everyone likes calm more than unneeded nerves. Some people just want to scream, rage, manipulate, make others feel bad.
You can never change their opinion or behaviour. It's better to just ignore them. As an old internet saying goes - don't feed the troll.
So we shouldn't feed the aggressive types too
Humans find satisfaction in the most unusual places…
@@Pangloss6413 idk if I would lump them in with the rest of us.
You committed a grave self-harm sin - went onto SMN.
Some people like trolling. Some people like to "own" the trolls. But others do engage tactically for the collateral education.
I would add nuance to the old Internet saying: Don't feed the trolls unless you got secret ingredients.
Yup there’s a mob on the internet seeking its next outrage. Miserable way to live
I really dislike the phrase “git gud” but what you said about how “what makes a game bad to someone is subjective”; it reminded me of the people who gatekeep being a “gamer” and how depending on the game you play; you aren’t a real gamer.
Some people consider those that play ‘The Sims’ to not be real gamers, that people who play mobile games aren’t real gamers and, in general, those that play easier or non competitive games are not real gamers; as if the difficulty or challenge of a game is what makes it an actual “game”.
I think that is the reason why I dislike “git gud” so much; it’s the idea that you can’t have a proper opinion on a game or games as a whole, unless you are “gud” and it’s that dismissal of genuine criticism with such a hand-waving tone that irks me.
I dismiss mobile gamers because mobile games are a plague upon humanity.
It's not a dismissal of genuine criticism at all.
It's a dismissal of criticism to people who don't want the game to the game that it is.
There are rules to games, and if you don't even bother to learn the rules, your criticism is dismissable. It's not useful in any way.
For a second I thought it was a new version control system
Regarding the Souls topic, I highly recommend playing it with someone guiding you through it.
Think of Souls as Dante's trip through Hell. You need a Vergil to guide you through "the nightmare".
This comes from someone who hated Souls and now actually likes them! They are not as bad with someone helping you figure out some things that would take enormous amounts of time to figure out on your own!
As for combat, "git gud" stands for "You're better than this and WE know it. It's time for YOU to know it too!" most of the time. Souls aren't "unfair platformers", and the best part of them is that the one who "levels up" the most is you, the player!! You go from struggling through most of the game to breezing through what once were impossible parts of it! It's awesome!!!
Anyway, great video Tim! As usual!
Git good feels like honest but also very shallow advice. It's eseniclay shorten wersion of "how do I beat boss X ? Simple, bring his hp to zero and don't die". Thank you capitan Obvious, like I didn't know that :P .
This is one of the reasons why I've essentially abandoned online multiplayer gaming. I'm tired of the constant immature posturing about player skill. "Git gud," "skill issue," "ez," "ur trash," etc. It's elitist gatekeeping meant to discourage and drive people that they consider "lesser" away while failing to understand that they're actively killing off the playerbase that's needed for online matches in the first place.
EDIT: I feel like I should clarify that this doesn't solely apply to when it's directed at me. I've grown a decently thick skin over the decades, and it doesn't bother me that often what randos think of me anymore. That said, I'd be lying if I claimed that it never bothers me; everyone has bad days where their emotions run raw and are easily agitated. Moreover, I can't help but feel bad for others when I see it happening to them, and calling out bad actors for their behavior is just an exercise in frustration when there's no real consequences for them. Simply put, I'm getting too old and don't have the patience to deal with that kind of crap anymore.
I’ve found that I had to switch my mentality to keep playing online.
When I join a match, before I hit the button, I accept that it’s a game and I’m likely to be “back to the lobby” very shortly.
Once this is in my brain any kind of trash talk has zero effect on me (aside from very rare true psychopaths).
This in turn helped me to get (a LOT) better at the online games I play.
But- of course I don’t have to do this mental step to play a single player game. Even very difficult single player games are more relaxing because it’s just me and the game.
I usually stay away from multiplayer (just not my jam, honestly) but the ones I do play, I find that they often turn off chat by default. Sometimes it's all chat, and sometimes it's just cross-team chat. You might even have to go out of your way to find the option to turn it on because it's so buried. But it's nice because it gives you the option to turn it on and 'wade into the pool' vs. 'being thrown into the pool' when you're flooded by a wall of text -- good or not -- when you're new and just open up the game. Is this the solution... don't know, but it is an interesting solution that I personally think it works for me without coddling me.
Multiplayer has always been like that. The only thing that’s change is the language being used. That elitism has always existed. There’s always going to be competitive people in online games. You should use the trash talk to motivate yourself rather than use it as an excuse to step away from a game. People don’t realize that you can actually “get good”. That’s the whole point of dark souls. You suck at first but by the end youre a god (hopefully) killing gods. And if it’s a really good game, why should you stop yourself from enjoying it just because some randoms on the internet trash talked you? Don’t let things like that get to you, you’ll never have a good experience playing an online game otherwise.
Mp games are like sports, made for stupid people
@@WalterHWhite-ri7pn Ironic that this entire paragraph of 'no actually it's *_your_* fault' could've just been replaced with 'git gud' anyway.
I always saw “git gud” as encouragement.
Like saying “you can do it if you improve your skill at the game”.
i agree although some of the people saying it is not saying it with this intention they just wanna say "you are noob" but i decide to interpret it or receive it in a positive way regardless of the speaker's intention.
Yes. Encouragement to spend more time with the game, to be more acustomed, take your time, you are not meant to be good at it from the start etc. Suggestion that it might be temporary feeling until you practice a bit more
bless your heart
Tone doesn't transfer well over the Internet, and most conversations tend to be vitriolic by default. So, seeing "git gud" and nothing else will usually be taken as negative.
It can be used that way too. Everything Tim said is accurate, it's just that internet jargon can be more nuanced than you might first think. It's like English, meaning is relative. :)
I loved the way you said 'git gud'.
Lil' of that Southern drawl. I'll start saying it like that from now on 😅.
It's exactly how I hear it in my head when I read it 😄
As a long time souls player the phrase "git gud" holds a different meaning to us that have been entrenched in those games for years. Most From games are very punishing and we as players all had to overcome the same challenges. The overcoming and completion of those challenges, try things, learn, fail, try new thing, fail, learn, repeat until successful completion of area or boss. That used to be what "git gud" meant to us. It was the phrase and sentiment that got me through my first sixty hour playthrough of DS1. It's unfortunate that a statement that used to be more about the communal struggle to overcome challenges became a gatekeeping phrase that alienates new players.
Tim, you sir are a legend and thanks for helping us "git gud" at game design, development, and discourse.
Aye, it was the hackers, campers, gankers and all around griefers spamming "git gud scrub" through hate mail and on forums that completely ruined it. They were missing the point entirely.
as a pretty casual gamer, i think it's pretty natural that some people like more complex and 'bloated' games. the superiority complex that comes with it is the problem
Been here since 10k subscribers - very satisfying listening to you scold the mouth breathers of the internet. Negativity and patronizing individuals are rampant, it's just so lovely to see one of the wholesome godfathers of gaming calling out unnecessary attacks for what they are.
Thanks for everything, Tim!
For what it's worth, I have also seen a side of the Dark Souls community using "git gud" in a positive way. "You persisted in the face of defeat until you achieved mastery and and now have bested the challenge in your path. Congratulations, you have gotten gud."
Git gud is actually wholesome. It's telling you to practice elements that are difficult, and after a while, suddenly, your gud. It's a practice thing that got turned toxic
"Git gud" in Souls is something that needs to be understood in context: In a lot of action games from the start of 3D until DS1 had been out for a few years, there was usually some puzzle to boss fights, as far back as grabbing Bowser's tail and spinning him. There was almost always some special mechanic you needed to figure out or QTE to trigger to allow the boss to take damage or knock big chunks out of its health, often in 1/3 to 1/5 increments
But when people struggle with Dark Souls, the advice is essentially "You need to get hit less often", there's no puzzle you need to solve to win, it's just familiarity with the controls and recognising the tells, and beyond that it's just git gud, work on your reaction times so you can dodge/block/parry/avoid what's coming at you and punish the enemy for overextending
That's the point of git gud, the missing puzzle piece is most likely your skills, you can win by improving them, you're not missing some esoteric mechanic
Also, try a magic build, they're a lot easier for most Souls games, especially if you have some RPG know-how for building characters
Recently went back to experience fallout 1 and 2. Ive been watching your videos for a few months but man...
Can i just say thank you? I havent genuinely enjoyed and laughed at a game like this since i was younger...and considering i fame everyday that says something.
I appreciate the way you left your mark on this world
i see this phrase commonly used to dismiss concerns over balancing in a game, even when the criticisms are pretty valid. usually by dark souls fans like you mentioned lol.
As much as "I suck at Dark Souls and can't reach the end credits" can be a observation about balancing. It shouldn't be considered a valid one.
I could only imagine what needs balancing in a game where you can dodge-roll yourself to literal immortality.
@@satsubatsu347 why not
It can be used that way a lot. But there are lot of examples of people who try and deflect blame from themselves and blame the game with no good reason. People making their first run through Dark Souls can call the Four Kings unfair, when they die on their first try, or get killed by a few hollows and call the game unfair. Often times, the fault is on the player, and souls communities do often hold each other accountable. I know me and my friends who play souls games enjoy expressing our skill with challenge runs, and don’t blame the game for every loss.
I really get the impression people online just love to argue more than actually have a conversation.
There's a comic strip where it goes:
"I'm angry at X!" / "Here's a Solution"
*Burning solution* / "No, I want to be mad"
Regardless of the intention behind the phrase, "Git Gud"; just the sentiment alone personally pushed me to indeed get better at certain games like Doom Eternal, which allowed me to appreciate them so much more.
I'm not even normally what you would call a "try hard" by any means and will typically stick to "Normal" difficulty (hoping it's the difficulty the developers spent the most time developing their games around; ie, the original intended vision for the game). But sometimes a game will, through skill based gameplay, just click with me and I just want to go nuts, and those are often my favorite games.
You're great, Tim! I love your content.
A video on the games you have loved in recent years would be great.
Even though Dark Souls has a stat menu and you build your character around those stats, the story that is created through the actions that the player character takes has nothing to do with what the player chose about their character outside of their ability to simply progress the story through combat. It has the face of an RPG through its numbers, but the real role playing comes through the big decisions about who you think should live or die and what you think reality should look like, rather than how well you character can participate in a particular aspect of the world through a stat, although there's a smidgen of it with certain characters
I think beside the two mentioned meanings behind "git good" there's also a more middle of the road version, where it's like a playful teasing between people sharing in the real challenge these fromsoft games offer. It's maybe partially meant as an insult, but more of motivator, to tease at one's ego and make them try harder to prove they can overcome it. Of course, there could be a double meaning behind it, but it depends on group of people and how honest they are.
I've only in the last few years played through all of the dark souls, bloodborne and sekiro, and always found a fun community with it. Of course, there's always pits to the groups, but it depends where you accidentally land. But I wouldn't lessen their difficulty and make them more accessible for anything. It's fine that there's one developer that focuses exclusively on these types of challenges. It's great, and indeed not every game is for everyone. I love having great mountains that we have to really kill ourselves to get to see the great scenery at the top.
Last week I was talking on Twitter about some gameplay mechanics in modern Halo that I found went against the rest of the game and were unfun, someone responded that it was a "skill issue"... Completely missing my point. It's not about skill, it's about game design that works and is fun.
"Skill issue" is another one yeah-
Like no, im pointing out something wrong and skill issue is a non answer
if you dont got anything useful to contribute to a topic saying "skill issue" doesnt really add anything or "git gud"
i particularly hate when the game has some progress system, i said it makes the experience of new players terrible, they already lack in skill, and the more skilled players also have extra advantages, and then a guy who streamed the game every day since launch tells me to just play the game to get points to gett RANDOM upgrades, if i was having fun i would
league of legends removed runes because of that
battle royales became popular because every match was a clean slate
paladins unlocked all the cards instead of puting them on loot boxes
dota unlocks all characters the moment you create an account
that is how you keep your new players
Thank you for continuing to bring rational, enlightening discussion to gaming. Too often gaming debates descends into a mud flinging mob
in ds games getting good is just a natural progression thing. if you dont get good enough, you arent passing through the first boss. it seems harsh at first but it tests out your patience, stubborness and willingness to understand the game and train for it. its satisfying getting good skillwise. the games have real good lore in it , but i aint reading all those descriptions and rather watch a passionate youtuber explaining it. also the storytelling is kinda fire, as there is almost none in it, if you care enough for it youll get it, if you dont its just fun progressing through the game knowing that its a rich world underneath telling it with beautiful and disturbing views in it.
While I love Souls games, I hate the fanbase. They think what makes the game good is the difficulty as opposed to... You know, absolutely fantastic map design, good music, great atmosphere, and fun boss design.
I have tried getting into the souls games for all those reasons but personally the one thing it gets the most hype for, which is the gameplay is putting me off due to the repetitiveness of it, I thought the pay off would be enough for me to push through the gameplay but honestly I can get everything I want out of these games from videos alone, the only thing im missing is the gameplay which obviously isn’t for me. (I haven’t tried elden ring btw)
I don't think it's the only thing that makes a game good but with Fallout New Vegas for example, I always disable the pre-order dlcs because I feel like it throws off the difficulty curve getting a bunch of free stuff.
So I'm probably the sort who has a thing for needing a certain level of "just right" difficulty.
It's also funny because they'll also tell you the only way to play is to literally roll through every single thing in the game, and that using any other tool is cheating.
Like, Miyazaki put that stuff in for a reason. Why are you insisting on hard mode?
Nuff said was a Stan Lee catchphrase, but it was more or a good bye than "I've said everything I've needed to say"
It saddens me that we're so far down the road that some people genuinely think that "gg" stands fof "Git gud"
nuff said
might as well be the term when only the winning team writes gg
I was half way expecting this at first to be a video on source control. 😄Thanks for the video as always Tim!
Great video Tim, Nuff Said
I have mixed feelings about it.
In typed discourse, I often see the phrase used pejoratively, but in personal interactions or most other forms of communication (youtube video, personal voice chat, etc) , I've only ever seen or heard it used tongue-in-cheek.
I wonder what it is about it that makes its use so distinctly different.
I also see a small subset use it as shorthand for : "This game has a learning curve, and deep mechanics, but as you familiarize yourself with it, you'll have both greater skill and more enjoyment of it, in tandem".
Somehow that's just not as catchy I guess.
agreed. When people complain that they cant kill assault mechs (weight 100 tones) in lights (20 tones) they literally need to git gud i.e. learn the game first.
i personally never was into from software games or soulslike genre, a staple to bring up with this discussion, but i think i have a similar relationship with celeste
in celeste "getting good" is a difference depending on familiarity with platformer genre between a single stroll through the critical paths on story chapters anywhere from 3 to 8 hours and (i do not even consider myself good at this game after) some 150 hours between all the collectibles, optional levels, and dlc chapter, topped off with grinding more than half of all single levels for perfection
there's nothing wrong with simply enjoying the story and the surface level mechanics, maybe grab a couple collectibles that a given casual player wants to engage with, indeed, throwing such a player into this harder optional content they aren't interested in serves nobody
but i can't do away with the desire of sharing this **feeling of accomplishment**. it feels good to get good at celeste at 3 hours played, it feels good to get good at celeste at 150 hours played. damn, these story levels that i was struggling with 150 play hours ago with near zero experience in the genre, they are even still fun to truly master using the tricks I learned or just pure control i developed, not just beat.
not the default take on this game apparently, lol. some people just aren't that into it, some will even play the first or so chapter, get stressed out by the learning curve on either controls or mechanics, and drop it. feels irrationally personal to me to a point, but eh, i can't convince people that the game is worth their involvement better than the game can.
I think the rage and hate comments are more for themselves, than trying to alter others opinion.
I think a lot of the connection between “git gud” and dark souls is that dark souls doesn’t simply let you through it, it demands a minimum level of skill (depending on your build of course) and won’t let you advance unless you’ve met or exceeded that level of “skill.” But that satisfaction doesn’t ever come if you quit so the “git gud” advice is kind of a rough guideline for how to enjoy the game
Needed this today. 'Nuff said.
The more recent version of this is the use of "skill issue" used both sincerely and also often jokingly. It is dismissive, but it's also harder to have to explain in detail to many different people how certain games make their challenges part of the experience, and tuning for that can introduce unnecessary dissonance in the collective player experience. Often a lot of pleading for easier games appears to entrenched players as "I should get a free win", or "I shouldn't need to learn this mechanic", or some similar entitlement - which to a lot of people seems very anti-game. Hence the rather flippant dismissals.
Good stuff as always, Tim. I am glad you "got good" at making video games for us. I am not sure if you are gud at it but you are definitely good at it.
I think the modern iteration, "skill issue" has more comedic potential, at least, especially when used for totally nonsensical things.
"What's that? You couldn't be in two places at once?
Skill issue tbh"
Lets Start the conversation:
Why don't you want to git gud?
That last point really brings it home. I had that conversation with someone recently. We were talking about how we used to argue about whether or not Dark Souls II was good and how it was such a dumb debate to have. It's cool to like what you like and dislike what you dislike. Trying to tear people down or "win" an argument to convince them of your point of view isn't worthwhile. Having an interesting discussion about perspectives, however, is.
I personally jokingly describe my relationship to the Souls games as being a "git gud cultist" when I talk about _how I play the game._ (For example, my first Bloodborne playthrough, I avoided any cheese weapons or even using summons.) I like Dark Souls because it's hard-both because I enjoy beating the challenge in a vacuum but also, if I'm being honest, because I like being good at something others struggle with. But even in a vacuum, the first time I beat the Blood-Starved Beast in Bloodborne, I was shaking from the adrenaline rush. (As a brief tangent about my experience with the games, I think I've gotten a too inflated sense of how good I am at them. I went in expecting to get my ass kicked and so it wasn't a problem when I died, but now (having, e.g., beaten DS3 at level 1 with the starter club), I subconsciously feel like I should be better than the game and when I do struggle with something, I get frustrated much faster.)
But, when I talk to other people, I'm not telling them to "git gud" (unless we're close friends and just ribbing, but that's sorta it's own thing) because I want to talk to people about these cool games which I _love._ As some people have said, I think I'm only really inclined to say something like "git gud" to someone saying that the game is too hard as an objective, authoritative judgement and not as an experience with the game.
If someone says that they bounced off the game and thought it was too hard, my response is something between "sucks that this game isn't for you, it's really cool" and advice on how to make the game easier (because for all that there are no difficulty settings, there are definitely ways to make the game easier), because I want people to enjoy these beautiful masterpieces of game design.
But if someone is coming out swinging and calling it a bad game for being too hard, then I may well tell them that they just need to, well, git gud.
There is a very adversarial nature to a lot of online discussions and I really don't like it. It's always been the case but something about the physical separation between yourself and the person you're interacting with on the internet causes some people to act and behave in immature or downright obnoxious ways that they'd never would (or at least would and get away with) in real life.
It's a very wild-west mindset and I don't mean that positively, everyone is treated with some amount of apprehension or suspicion until they've proven themselves to have the right thoughts and opinions. And at the same time, as soon as someone doesn't they're jumped on like meat in a room full of jackals. It's clique-y AND isolationist and it's a damn shame because there are just as many polite and genuinely reflective people on the internet too, but as is true to life the potency of negative feedback can spoil a lot of otherwise great things.
Great video, I'm glad you shed some light on this kind of unhelpful, unfriendly conduct.
Hey Tim, the infamous Nemesis system from the Middle Earth games is a gold standard for procedurally generated side-characters and narratives for 3D action/adventure games.
Have you ever looked into the patent for it, and do you have any thoughts you could share on how you think similar concepts and features from the system could be applied to other games?
6:40 I've experienced this too, many times. Talking things out can result in some of the best ideas. It turns the energy of trying to be right into a sort of brainstorm session because people come at it with the angle of "something isn't right let's try to improve it" rather than "I'm right you're wrong end of discussion". It's just unfortunate when the people involved don't come up with any good ideas, and it's just left as a puzzle for later. Can't spend all day sitting around thinking on it when there's plenty of other work to do.
I like it when it's said to someone who wants to change the game.
Love that you brought up this topic. Its almost impossible to have civil conversations anymore, especially online.
I've been playing souls games pve/pvp since DS1 prepare to die release and the origin of git gud comes from DS1 where it meant the exact nice meaning you mentioned at the start. Reason for this is contrary to popular belief dark souls series before DS3 was honestly a very simple game as long as you understood the game mechanics and stats. You don't need twitch reactions or ''epic gamer skillzzz'' to succeed in these old souls games at all. As long as you level up your health enough and upgrade your weapons as much as possible you suddenly have ''gitten guder''. Hell if you figure out the kindle mechanic you can essentially have double/quadruple the estus flasks in DS1 specifically, allowing you to facetank anything in the game and trade until you win. DS2 had a similar thing with buying 99 lifegems for cheap relatively early in the game and demon's souls had 99 healing grass farming.
Essentially, there were easy solutions to getting stronger but telling you outright defeats the purpose of playing the game yourself and figuring them out (unless you are mega stuck and frustrated, then we can help) so we said git gud. Very rarely even with all this knowledge the person can't win for some reason and at that point I mean, there is nothing else the person can do but actually ''git gud''
Even in later installments like DS3, bloodborne and elden ring where you do need to learn attack patterns and react in time the knowledge of leveling health etc still help tremendously on the ''git gud'' situation. Don't get me wrong, the malicious meaning was still used especially in pvp circles by some dinguses but most didn't take it seriously anyway because the pvp has never really been balanced. After DS3 the series' popularity significantly increased and git gud really started to get a bad reputation because the newcomers don't really understand the origins and as you can see it's a pain to explain lol. Coincidentally invaders have also started to be hated tremendously at around the same time even though technically before DS3 they could literally 1 shot you with a dagger at level 1 because there was no weapon upgrade matchmaking, it was actually a problem that was fixed (still not as balanced as it should be but that's a topic for another day).
i would pay good money to see a conversation beetween you and miazaki
hi tim i always loved your vids! thanks for makeing fallout by the way
he didn't makeing fallout. He done did it.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts Tim. I learn a lot from this channel. 🙏
🧓👴👵💍Elder Ring: One ring to rule the old. Coming soon.
🎯
Git gud to me is the reaction to new players or low skilled players wanting something in the game to be easier, and the community that likes the challenge wanting to defend the game and not have the discourse around the game be that it should be easier. The "shared experience" aspect of many games has kind of been washed away with accessability options, and the core user base that is looking for the next big challenge gets something easier and watered down and you dont get that feeling you had with the previous games.
Honestly, my problem with the "Git Gud" or "Skill Issue" mentality has always been the implication that a game shouldn't be fun until you've hit some specific level of skill with it. After all, almost everyone is going to be bad at a game when they start playing it. Shouldn't the process of learning and getting better be fun in it of itself? Why should it be unenjoyable UNTIL you "git gud?"
The only way a person is going to start out good at a game is if they've played very similar games before. This is something I think the Dark Souls (and the greater "soulsborne-like") community often forget about. Due to how many mechanics stay the same, a lot of skill transfers between those games. I think a lot of us just forget that when you're first starting out? They're really hard! And as the series in general moves more and more to appeal to the fanbase that's been sticking with these games for years, it's easy to not realize that the skill required at the start is increasing along with it, and making it harder for new people to stick with the games.
Now that I think about it, transference of skill between games within the same series or genres is an interesting topic in it of itself. I'd actually be very interested in seeing on a video on how you design for returning vs new players.
A lot of people, especially younger ones that have few accomplishments they feel they can be proud of, tend to place so much of their self worth on things they like, or are successful at.
I think most of society's problems come from how little people value themselves.
Of course a lot of media, and corporations depend on this to make money, so it's not going away until the majority of people decide they don't want it to continue.
There is a hint of truth to that saying though. If someone is not skilled at playing the guitar, and then says that the guitar is a bad, boring instrument to play, their opinion is invalidated because they don't posses the ability to truly experience the enjoyment of guitar playing. I guess it depends on the opinion, if the opinion is that the game is garbage because its too hard, or unfair, then they should get better at playing it before they judge it. However if they say that they personally don't like the game because it's too difficult, or they personally don't like the gameplay, that's fine. I personally trashed Dark Souls when it first came out, then I finally beat the Gargoyles, and the game became much more enjoyable. So I can see the irrational hatred for the game, because I used to feel the same way, then I got good at the game, and it became a much more enjoyable experience. I suppose it comes down to the opinion of the individual who needs to "git gud".
For me git gud is also a way of saying: "I can't describe it in words beyond advising you to keep practicing". If I were to ask anyone how to get good at a Souls game, I think it would be hard for them to put it into words, to describe any general principles. The enemies and bosses are different enough so there aren't many general principles applicable.
Games can be boring even if you can beat them and interesting even if you can't beat them. Games are not just about the end result of being good at them , most people need to enjoy the whole process of getting good , if a game can't make the process fun then yeah it's not great for them even if they do get good at it.
@@yourstruly5013 Sure, I think it has to do with playing the game to its fullest extent. I remember playing Halo as a kid, and I remember seeing the developers putting "how its meant to be played" under the Heroic/Hard difficulty. The challenge is what forces you to use all of the tools at your disposal, rather than just running and gunning. You actually need to use tactics and cover, as well as every item given to you like weapons and grenades. I remember not liking the original Mass Effect combat because I thought the combat was boring, then my next playthrough I put the difficulty up and it was far more enjoyable, because I was actually using all of my squads abilities and had to make sure I focused on progression and inventory management in order to get the edge in combat. On normal difficulty I was basically playing Mass Effect like it was Gears of War or something. But when I started using every tool at my disposal, the game was much better.
@@NocturneJester Yeah I did say that , maybe I did not word it better.
@@octavianpopescu4776 I think there are though.
I think the principles look something like:
1. Always attack from safety. Don't attack until you know you won't be punished for doing so.
2. Use positioning to create safety.
3. Learn enemy moves to understand what is and is not safe.
4. Usually counter-attack - counter on a whiff, a block, a parry, or a dodge. Learn which one to use against which attacks.
5. Don't be afraid to vary your tools based on what you're fighting. The specific trumps the general. Think of encounters as puzzles.
6. Sometimes aggression is needed to create safety, but usually you want to play defense first.
7. Nothing is "cheap" in Dark Souls. All mechanics were put in the game for a reason.
I think that covers about 95% of it.
The problem with the internet is you can't be slapped for trash talk. I liked the term "Git Gud" when the gaming journos complained about the skill required for Elden Ring. it's fine if your joshing your friends, but all to often that or "skill gap" is used when you critique a game. It's used to cover their confirmation bias, putting a game on a pedestal doesn't maker it better.
the Outer Worlds levelling system of adding points into multiple variables until lvl 50 in a group makes the early experience far less tedious to reach the desired build than other games in the genre. in turn, the early game is relatively easy but the difficulty progression feels related to those early game choices. makes for a rewarding late-game.
i just started learning Godot - trying to git gud. Tim Cain and other game devs uploading to TH-cam have provided much needed insight and understanding. Thank you for inspiring myself and others.
2:50 - Thank you!! I just want to look at these people and say "Well! If you like that, I have some really nice wrapping paper to give to you next Christmas!"
Great video, Tim! One element that I think about, and I wonder if you agree, is that there is something in the way we design videogames, and have since the beginning, that is very "hierarchical". So much of videogames is, I'm on top, you're on the bottom, I'm dominating you. And I do think that some of the amount of toxicity that we see is downstream of that. Like, if you were to imagine a world with game systems that were inherently less about domination, I think we would see a game community that was a little less so, too.
That was quite a cheeky line and the very end there lol
Thank you for being so wholesome, uncle Tim
I've always found the "git gud" phenomenon really strange. There is so much excellent design to the Souls games beyond the challenge, not to mention that most of the games can be made fairly trivial if you don't stick to playing the games the "correct" way. I've always found the bosses in those games to be the least interesting parts (due to how much they narrow down the experience), so the idea that the main experience of those games is to slam yourself at these bosses until you've mastered every move just doesn't make sense to me. I get that to some people it's the most interesting part, but there is so much more to enjoy beyond that.
Thank you for this. I really enjoy your vlogs and the insights you provide into game development.
Hey, Tim. I just wanted to say thank you not only for Fallout but for all the games you've worked on. I've enjoyed so many of them over the years like the first Fallout, Arcanum, The Outer Worlds...and especially Wildstar. I'm so sorry that it ended up being such a traumatic experience. I know the game had its issues but I met a lot of great people while playing it and some of them are still friends to this very day. I was lucky enough to have been granted a four-month subscription by Cory Loftis after I posted a tearful farewell on the forum (the beta had finished and I couldn't afford a sub). I made a lot of friends in the morning coffee thread and got to hang out with a community manager named Fluttershy who was one of the kindest people ever. It was such a unique and memorable experience and I just wish you hadn't had to deal with so much crap.
You've always been a really great guy and your videos have been so awesome and informative. I look forward to every upload and hope that it continues to be as rewarding for you as it has been for so many of us. Thanks for putting so much heart and hard effort into all the projects you've done for us. It's so very, very, very much appreciated. Thanks for sending out a message of kindness, too. That's appreciated more than anything.
One thing that frustrates me in games is the "illusion of choice." The developers make you pick one forced decision over another but you end up in the same place. So, what was that all about? I haven't found a video on this subject on here, but maybe it might be worth visiting in the future. Thank you Mr. Cain. :)
It's all an illusion - Jurassic Park 1993
JRPG moment
I 100% agree with you on this subject, Tim: My first experience playing an online game long term was when I started playing Final Fantasy 14 ten years ago, and the guild I joined (which had some RL friends in it) was infested with League of Legends players who were, shall we say, shining examples of the League of Legends player base. I was still learning the game mechanics due to this literally being the first MMORPG I ever played, and was constantly excluded from running high-end content with the rest of the guild because my DPS wasn't good enough. When I asked how I could improve, the only advice the raid leader gave was basically, "git gud"...
Needless to say, I ended up leaving that guild not long after, and I'm glad I now am with a much more mature guild that tries to actually help their members (I have actually become one of the leaders of this guild even) instead of only giving smarmy, condescending 2-word responses when people ask for advice or help.
I love you man, you are such an honest soul and listening to you talk makes me happy, i don't know how to explain it but you are like one of the few people online that is down to earth and not an idiot that judges everything at face-value
5:38 When you value the lore in something, it feels kinda personal, and to a point it is
Git Gud, Tim. Nuff said.
Really just depends on the game. Some physics stuff like Trials or rhythm games like GH and RB, there are definitely tips to give, but you're going to have to practice if you want to see better results.
Hello Mr. Cain,
I wanted to thank you for answering my questions. I really appreciate it. It helped me to verify that I was on the right track with what I had been assuming for some time. I knew no one had a time machine or a crystal ball, yet somehow back in the day, you and your teams got some of the future pretty close to what is happening now in our world. It was and is a little scary on the one hand. But like you said, you take what would concern or even scare you (not monster wise lol), and you all injected it into your game(s). I am not a writer of books, but I think that they do the same thing at times. Not in all science fiction, of course, but in much of it that is dystopian. I shared that video with some friends, and they too really liked how you not only answered my question, but that you did so genuinely. We all understood what you were saying, and learned something from it. So, thank you.
You are spot on in this video with your observation on how people have started to loose the ability to have a conversation. My mother, who was a L.M.F.T, therapist, (councilor) had mentioned many times that people have to learn how to carry on a conversation. That the act of conversing has to be taught and learned. And unfortunately the big 2020-2022 mess with the "Bug" and people not allowed/able to leave their homes really stunted that ability even more. Fortunately, you have a beautiful outlook, and personality that shines through on your videos, and it is very encouraging, and also a learning and teaching moment. So, again, thank you.
I hope that in time, another fun creation will be brought to life by you, be it a game, a book, or something else. I'll keep watching! And having a good time with you or your creation(s).
Sincerely,
Nichole.
Thanks for continuing to try and make the gaming space a more friendly and open space for everyone Tim! Also I do think its funny you called it Elder Ring XD Didn't notice till you pointed it out and I went back to see
It would be insane to get to work with someone like Timothy, I've been in game dev for 25 years and would STILL kill to work on a game with him. He's so level-headed and respectful snd just 'an adult.'
I love the phrase because I felt a part of the souls community and ended up playing all of the games. They are all some of my all time favorites. Just like in Arcanum I feel like I need to get gud.
As long as it's not reflex based I'm confident I can figure it out eventually. But if it is I'm getting older so I'm only going to get worse lol. Love V.A.T.S for that reason (and why I can't do 76 bercause that's not really V.A.T.S , and it's multiplayer so it never could be the V.A.T.S as I like it)
I really enjoy your channel Tim. This reminds me of when I first tried Elden Ring. Before that game, I never played a Souls game. I thought the style and setting would be up my alley but every time I’d read the internet and get a sneak peek, there were a lot of people, including me, that were ran off by the “git gud” crowd. The vitriolic minority of those games were gatekeeping the curious minded gamers and keeping them away. And then they wonder “I don’t get why Souls games aren’t more popular.” In fact I have many friends that still won’t play because of that particular fandom.
There is quite a difference between genuinely seeing your own growth as a gamer, which is what makes difficult games exciting for me, and then what you do with that gained growth in a social context. I think it’s really easy to act upon arrogance, because we might feel that we have earned this position or because it seems to defend our social status. In my estimation, it might be born out of an insecurity of one’s own past incompetence, or possible degradation of one’s current abilities. We’re humans, after all, and I would be a fool to state that I am truly above this. Yet it would be healthy to focus on the encouraging aspect of “get gud” within difficult games. To remember how incompetent skilled players also once were (and still are, since we are never finished), and to encourage others to improve and really reveal how great they could actually be. Maybe this is the reason for playing difficult games. Perhaps if we focus on that, then we don’t distract ourselves with gaining a position which has nothing to do with the actual enjoyment and enrichment of playing the game. But in order to achieve that, we may need to learn the art of being humble: not to neglect oneself, but rather not to give into arrogance. As we’re humans, perhaps we should forgive each other if we don’t manage this, or can’t immediately. Hopefully we can all laugh with a big relieve and just play video games. That’s all I guess.
I feel that it is tied to the fact that at some point we were this stupid person that didn't know better. For some reason when we see someone being stupid like we were make us angry. I know it isn't everyone but it's very common
It's clique behavior, honestly. You've worked hard to get into the popular/exclusive group, so now you treat people the same way you were treated when struggling to make it.
Add the fact that a lot of gamer groups have no other significant goals or hobbies outside of the gaming space and it's custom-made for toxicity and smugness.
This is generally why the behavior runs so rampant within online gaming spaces. All the worst parts of elitism, anonymous interaction and tribalism wrapped up into 30 minute sessions.
These talks are such an awesome window into the golden computer age, really brings me back to childhood, when I wasn’t homeless and everything was easy lol
You hate that phrase 'git gud'?
But the way you say it with the head movement and everything.
You've literally said it better than anyone i've ever heard!
the ONLY time i say 'git gud' is with friends when we're being playful.
'nuff said' is soo annoying lmao.
I genuninely think if you used 'nuff said' you would make it more comedic and fun to hear.
Because the reason you would say it is for comedic purpose and comedic timing.
i know you want to give young game-devs advice that you wish you had when you were younger.
I love listening to you. it always makes my day!
This thought process could be used not only when discussing video games but when discussing anything with someone with opposing views
The main problem with this mentality is that we got a genre completely immune to criticism. We can talk about RPG, FPS, RTS, CCG, but not about soulslikes. We are obliged to love them, otherwise it's a "skill problem".
Not to mention some soulslikes deliberatly gave up obvious quality of life features we've been having for the last 15 years in the sake of being more difficult, and we can't even talk about that.
"Hey I I had a hard time with-" "RTFM" "Thanks"
It sounds harsh, but a decent manual/documentation covers like 85-90% of issues. People not even attempting to check the docs (even in search/chatbot or video form now) but still getting pissed/indignant because something "isn't working" is such a colossal waste of support & developer time. I've seen folks call/email and wait through an entire holiday period for support, only to have an issue that the docs could've resolved for them in about 2mins.
@@mandisaw i started downloading manuals from old games that i got digital versions, rarelly they tell what i want to know, gamefaq got me covered more often, the writers discover that stuff by testing
In 1999 or so I made a logo in paintshop pro (an old photoshop competitor) for a hacking/cracking group that called themselves RTFM. Thanks for the nostalgia, I haven't heard that acronym for decades.
90% of complaints I see about The Outer Worlds are "It isn't New Vegas 2". I blame the marketing for setting wrong expectations. I played with no expectations and liked it, noting that it was more linear in like an older BioWare RPG kind of way. Not a bad thing, but needs an expectations adjustment.
Tim, on the topic of "understanding how games are made", would you be able/willing/interested in doing a tutorial/walkthrough/example of the various stages of development, and create a "mockup" game for the example? I love the talking head videos, but I would also love to see more hands on and visual examples as well. Thanks for everything you do!
Especially in online games, the meaning of "git gud" really depends on the established culture within that game.
In some games, it's one of the nicest things you'll hear from other players. And if you can't stand it and ragequit because of it, it ironically means the gatekeeping was a success. In their mind, the fault lies with you, not with them.
Usually I've seen git gud mostly being used in response to game journalists arguing that dark souls and similar such games need easy mode despite there already being in game factors that moderate difficulty like summons, or particular weapons being op at certain areas in the game, etc. as well as having a laugh at people who should be decent at games, such as game reviewers as their job is literally to play video games, like in the infamous doom 2016 gameplay with polygon writers or that one where the guy was having supreme difficulty with the cuphead tutorial. It is bad when people use it as a way to dismiss any genuine criticism or further discussion, like how gymcels say shit like 'post physique' whenever they're wrong about something.
My most hated internet phrase is "Ez" at the end of matches when people are trying to mock you. It's usually said by people when it was a really close match anyway and they barely won. lol
My favourite was seeing it typed by the player(s) who clearly carried the least weight in the game, and were often the most toxic in the game/on the team to begin with. Happened surprisingly regularly.
But that kind of behavior was what turned me off from most multiplayer games to begin with and made me hesitant to return to the few I did play. It's just unnecessary.
Gg Ez triggers me. I report, because it's meant to be toxic and it is. So yeah
When I first played Fallout, I didn’t enjoy it too much and just wrote it off as a dated game. But watching your videos has given me a greater appreciation for the original Fallout, and I’ve since replayed the original Fallout and had a much better time! I think your videos are such a gem and have made me able to appreciate games in a way I don’t think I was really able to before. Also, I wanted to ask if you’ve played LISA: The Painful before, and what your opinion is on games that are heavily inspired by existing games people are nostalgic for (Undertale & Earthbound, Yooka-Laylee and Banjo-Kazooie, etc.). Do you think it’s easy to toe the line between giving players the familiar nostalgic experience they want and giving players something new and fresh? Or do you think that isn’t a question that needs addressing when making a game based off something people are nostalgic for? I figured since you worked on Outer Worlds, you might have thought about a similar question of balancing giving players nostalgic for a Fallout: New Vegas experience the game they want and making a new game that is more engaging to create. I brought up LISA: The Painful since, in my opinion, it’s one of the better Earthbound-like RPG’s, and I was curious what you think separates it from other Earthbound-like games? Thank you for taking the time to read this!
Almost completely unrelated, but whenever you discuss communication or social/virtual interactions, I get great "cognitive-behavioral vibes" in your speech, in that you take great care to demonstrate perspective-taking, to logically differentiating fact from opinion, while recognizing that people see the world from their own perspective, and that such perspective influences their visions of events (and affects their memories of such events). Very refreshing, on a clickbaity platform of quick reactions and easy hot takes. So, thanks for that!
It reminded me today, while watching this clip, that I had read, several years ago, that clinical psychiatrists had been hired as consultants on the development of games. Maybe survival horror games? I'm not so sure anymore, but mental health professionals apparently had pitched in on the content of a game, as it related to helping the developers implement fear-inducing materials in their product.
Which leads me to my question(s) : You previously discussed meeting Fallout's voice actors, and also recently talked about doing research for games, but I was wondering if you had ever worked with professional consultants, ie, experts in some field (history, engineering, psychology, medicine, etc.), who primarily work outside of the game industry? If so, how did that go? And if not, why would you say it didn't happen, and what context do you think would make it worthwhile?
If someone uses git gud as a serious reply than yeah they are not a serious person.
This sums up a lot of ideas about 90's maxing, people want to win at arguments because they argue with abstract people online. Even when coming in with "hot takes" IRL people are often more respectful in groups where you have to interact often.
I'm so glad I found Tim's channel. Now I'm inspired to "git gud" at comments in the chance he might respond to mine. My first attempt is "what did you need from elden ring that wasn't present in dark souls in order to enjoy it?". In my experience I enjoyed dark souls more, but there's a nostalgia factor for me. What I disliked about Elden ring was a lot of re-used bosses and exploration bloat, padding.
"Fallout 1 is so good because character creator" unfortunately makes up about 60-70% of the fanbase these days, while the minority of fans say "Fallout is good because of the themes, characters, stories, and messages". But unfortunately, that doesn't sell as many products as power armor.
Strengly enough, this is literaly the first time I see someone raising argumet that og Fallout is great because character creator. Maybe I just interact with diffent part of fanbase....
Fallout 1 is good because your choices have consequences. That, of course, includes the character creator. The themes are interesting, the characters often forgettable, the stories at times interesting, and the message good but not like it's super innovative or anything. What makes it one of the great crpg of all times is that what you do comes back to bite you in the butt, which really is what a rpg is supposed to be about.
Fallout 1 really isn't that good tbh. It's a fine game but the series doesn't start to shine until Fallout 2...which ironically is the one Mr. Cain stepped away from.
As someone who may be a little guilty in the proliferation of this term...
From my understanding/adaptation at the early DS times... it was a sarcastic poke at how early Demon's/Dark Souls would unfairly sucker punch you out of nowhere with, let's say, a rolling boulder; the solution was to "skill issue" around these blatantly unfair scenarios. It wasn't *actually* about getting good, it was mostly about "you got sucker punched by this" or a general sympathetic understanding that you were treated unfairly.
Then I started using this in the fighting game scene; and this took a bit of weird translation. There's a nice overlap between Soulsbourne and Fighting Game communities - mechanical depth, execution, competitive focus - so a few people knew what I was talking about but not everyone did. So it developed through the FGC, through that different perspective/lens, into being *about* improving your skill/execution instead, like a double irony that just works both ways.
I remember this being a function of the limited vocabulary/characters in soapstone messages and it just went nuts from there!