How To Avoid Solar Panel Scams | Ask This Old House
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 ก.ย. 2024
- In this video, This Old House home technology expert Ross Trethewey teaches host Kevin O’Connor what he needs to know about solar installation plans, financing, and rebates to ensure homeowners get the most for their investment.
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Why Solar is So Popular
Everyone’s phones and internet browsers are full of solar panel ads, and there are now door-to-door salesmen walking through neighborhoods attempting to sell systems. Why is solar so popular right now?
Ways to Finance Solar Installation
There are essentially four ways to pay for solar installation. Those ways include the homeowner paying for the solar system themselves out of pocket, using a third-party lender to secure a loan for the system and installation, leasing the system from a solar company, and a power purchase agreement. The benefits of these options vary.
Cash
When a homeowner pays for their own installation, they own the system. This means they can take full advantage of the solar rebates offered by federal and local governments. While they do have to come up with a lot of money (typically north of $13,000), they don’t have to pay interest. They might also be able to obtain a discount for full payment.
Loan
Some homeowners may choose to secure a third-party loan to pay for their solar panel system. In this scenario, the homeowner still owns the panels, and they retain all of the tax rebate benefits, but they’ll have to pay back the loan amount plus interest.
Leasing Agreement
Homeowners who want solar but don’t want to pay out of pocket or secure a loan may choose to lease their system from a solar company. When this is the case, the homeowner benefits from lower electricity bills, but the leasing company retains all of the tax benefits and rebates, and owns the system.
Power Purchase Agreement
Similar to a leasing agreement, homeowners who enter into power purchase agreements will pay less each month for electricity. They agree to purchase their electricity from the solar company in exchange for the solar company installing the panels on the homeowner’s roof. Again, in this scenario, the solar company retains the right to rebates and tax benefits.
How to Choose a Solar Company
With the ability to finance solar panel systems, get paid for them, and retain tax benefits, there are a lot of solar companies sprouting up. Not all of these solar panel companies are reputable, however. Some are simply in it for revenue generation, and once they land the agreement, there is very little incentive to return and service the system.
Instead of choosing the first solar panel installer that knocks on the door, do a bit of research. Ask friends and family who they used for their solar panel systems. Also, for each potential contractor, find out where they’re from. It’s better to work with a locally owned company than one run by a conglomerate 3,000 miles away.
It’s also important to know how long a company has been in business. Ten years of experience looks better than 6 months. And while a new company isn’t necessarily a bad company, the homeowner should simply do more research to verify that the company is legitimate.
One other thing: Look for Solar North American Board of Certified Energy Practitioners (NABCEP) [www.nabcep.org/]. These contractors have undergone third-party certification that ensures they know what they’re doing.
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How To Avoid Solar Panel Scams | Ask This Old House
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It really is a shame that it feels like dealing with a used car salesman when talking to these people.
Shop around and find a good company. I got a few clear salesmen but one buy I talked to was very clearly an engineer by trade and not a salesman. He was the only one who honestly told me that he would only recommend solar for me if I really wanted to go green and said he wouldn’t bother if he had my home. And it definitely wasn’t a play because o knew that going in.
That is what real estate has become-total Shark Tank.
I'm sick of it. I'm not talking to any of them anymore, unless I solicit them first. I've thought about all the salespeople I've talked to, all the times they've lied, all the times I cancelled because I learned about something they didn't talk about, etc.
Entire waste of time. All of their jobs are the result of a post-scarcity industrial era. We don't need useful people anymore, so we create these kinds of jobs to keep them busy.
Waaay worse than used car salesman
My brother is a real estate agent and has seen many sales fall through because of solar leases. New buyers often don't want to take the leases over and just move on.
I also wouldn't.
It's amazing how home loans can be twisted up into such a mess, loans on top of loans.
Not just leases, but even owner-purchased when there's a loan leftover as they have a lien on the home so it must be paid off or transferred to the new purchaser. The original purchaser pocketed all the tax credits while you get nothing.
@@oldtwinsna8347 Good point. I didn't think of that.
Yep, I'm in real estates and it happens a lot.
What I would say, is your brother needs to become an expert in how to navigate these transactions as they will be more plentiful in the next 5 to 10 years. So many more people are getting solar installed on their roof and your brother wants to be well positions to navigate this experly so that the bulk of your business will come to him based on his expertise in navigating the situation instead of him, putting his head in the sand when it relates to opportunity lost for his sales quiver.
So many people are getting scammed by solar installers right now, it's amazing. This information needs to be spread to every person thinking about solar. I've had to talk so many friends and family out of horrible solar deals because there was no way it was ever going to be financially viable. I got solar when my state had incentives, but the budget was allocated in the first year and there haven't been state incentives yet. Without the incentives, the cost of the system will take way too long, given the relatively low cost of energy, where I live. I know the cost continues to decrease, but without state and federal incentives, the ROI is just not reasonable for many. I wish more people were able to understand the economics before making the leap and this video does a good job of explaining that. Thanks Ross.
A coworker proudly posted in our work chat how he just signed a contract for a solar system. Once I realized they were overcharging him by $30k, I spoke to him privately, and got him to pay a $3k fee to break the contract. Absolute scum national company he was dealing with!
gizmo, dtemp I suggest watch a 13 part series called _What on earth happened_ by Ewaranon to learn that the earth is not a globe.
I got it in my about tab.
Biggest impact on solar payback is net metering. Some utilities are good and credit you back retail for generated power... others, charge fees and give you mere cents, or NO net metering at all! That makes it a LOT harder payback... batteries can help, but those are usually nearly as or more expensive than solar is, and more complicated, and much shorter (10yrs?) lifetime vs 20-30yrs for panels.
30% fed credits are a big help also, but even that without some net metering..
As this program is for the DIY crowd, it'd be great to have a few episodes dedicated to the best value home efficiency prep work & self-install of a modern PV+battery system. There's whole youtube channels dedicated to these, but TOH has production means & reach to make great contributions in a time where it's only becoming more valuable & important to manage energy wisely.
I found a DIY system on Amazon let's just say it's a whole lot more work than it's actually worth in Saving. I gained some knowledge on how so it works and that's about the extent of the value
@@yourgooglemeister6745Check out EG4 and Santan solar. I can build 60KW solar panel with 10KW of battery storage for $22k. Depending where you live will estimate how much power you can generate a day. I live in Phoenix, so I get 5.5 hours a day which means about 165KWH a day. Lot of people are not interested in DIY solar or learning how electricity works doing any work on their home I understand who wants to spend all their free time on a project like that. Amazon is not the place to buy anything for a whole house solar system find a dealer. Santan for panels, Signature Solar for EG 4 inverters and Lifepo4 server rack batteries.
⛔ THE SCAM IS when the govt gives tax incentives......THE COST GOES UP! Contractors will CHARGE MORE because of the tax credits. Taxpayers are paying for it. IF no govt involved....THE MARKET will work and prices will DROP 50%!
We installed our own system. Wasn't hard.
@@yourgooglemeister6745diy is the way to go believe me
I think TOH could do a whole hour long show on solar, you touched on a couple good topics, like the 20 year lease program, which I have read articles from reputable solar installers, they typically recommend to stay away from. Also the inverter does each panel have a micro inverter or a single inverter for the whole system and what happens if the inverter fails. Then there is the whole discussion about batteries and what types are available, such as Teslas power wall or Generics version etc. We plan in 2 years to build our retirement home, smaller, with solar so as to give us options other than for the grid and potential downtimes.
George, all good questions. I lived in Hawaii and installed solar in 2014. I should have done it 10 years earlier. I figure it paid for itself in 3.5-4 yrs (helped by the highest electric rates in the country). My panel system (14kW per day on a small 2 bed/2 bath house) had a single inverter but I think some larger systems have multiple inverters. Recently in Colorado and need to re-educate myself when it comes to the battery bank. They started peak demand usage (4 to 8pm) billing here and I think a battery system may help level out the bill even more, plus inevitably will have an electric vehicle and overnight charging from a battery wall would be nice to have.
I can tell you that the current microinverters are a big step forward technologically. They are far more reliable than the bulky old inverters. Going with an established company and low APR or upfront cash will provide excellent return on investment.
@@berndog4u1 Battery technology is turning over too rapidly to invest in a battery pack right now. Don't forget that a battery pack poses more of a fire hazard, so home insurance rates will go up. I have twelve 400 kW solar panels with microinverters connecting the panels in a network to a central inverter connected to the grid. Your 14 kW system is way oversized for a 2 bed/2 bath house. My 4.8 kW system covers my 1700 sq.ft. 4 bedroom/2.5 bath house. I have not paid an electric bill in the 12+ months since going live (except for the $10-11/month charge from the utility company for grid maintenance and $65/month on the 100% financed solar loan @1.5% APR). On my recent 12 month True-up, I made $200 from exporting electricity which has paid for four months of natural gas invoices (March - June). My house can experience 90+ deg. F daytime temperatures in the summer months from June-October, and I can still run my A/C at 70 deg. F indoors and not pay a dime of electrical usage.
All the info is out there. I didn't know anything and installed my own off grid system. Wasn't that hard.
Solar Leases are pretty much almost never worth it, if you own your home and have a decent roof and location, it is *always* a better idea to just buy it upfront with cash or a loan. With an average payback period of 5-8 years and an increase on your property’s value to boot, it’s just a smarter move.
Also worthy to note is installing a whole-home battery to be able to take advantage of the fact that you’ll be generating the most energy when your house doesn’t usually need it as much, and if your power provider doesn’t do Net Metering that’s another way to avoid losses to that inefficiency.
If you stop paying the loan they can put a lien on your house and take it
@@Liberalcali And?
@@Liberalcali That’s true of **literally** every big home improvement project where you need to take a loan out for it. Difference is, with a short payback period, you can likely easily plan ahead for it as 5 years is a pretty stable timeframe to know what you’re doing and what economic conditions will be like for you. If you took a loan out to reno your kitchen, it isn’t gonna yield any economic return for you until maybe when you sell your house, but even that isn’t assured to generate you more revenue than you put into it, but solar likely will.
The lenghts banks go to screw the single person is amazing.
Yeah, the cooperation between lenders is crazy. So much of this "green" agenda is to get more money moving. I get that there is energy reductions, but it's not right when a young family gets bankrupted. I love the wilderness as much as everyone else (I live in the woods) but sneaking people into home improvement loans and vehicle loans is not the solution. I simply wish more education was placed on staying out of debt. I moved to stay out of debt, my last town would have bankrupted me.
TJO I suggest watch a 13 part series called _What on earth happened_ by Ewaranon to learn that the earth is not a globe.
I got it in my about tab.
@@flat-earther not that big on poor comedy, sorry
@@flat-earther ...we should just aim the flat panel of earth at the sun to get max efficiency out of our PV arrays 24/7. Bet if we get everyone to meet up in the lower-right corner, it'll be enough weight... Spread the word!
@@Krazie-Ivan I believe you don't even know what flat earth is. You have a distorted view of flat earth. I suggest watching the series first.
Many UNKNOWNS: 1) not all homeowners insurance will cover homes with solar panels . 2) You need to insure the system in case of storm damage. 3) your roof needs to be fairly new. 4) states have different rules governing the system. 5) the amount of payment for energy you generated is much less than what the provider charges . 6) all solar panels and related equipment are not equal.
The issue I have with the Federal solar tax credit is how the solar companies are taking advantage of it. They use it as a sales pitch indicating that you can receive a credit up to 30% of the installation cost (depending on your specific tax situation), but they artificially inflate the installation cost so that they wind up getting this money. So, you aren't really getting 30% of your money back you are just transferring that 30% tax credit to the solar company. The problem is that all the solar companies are doing the same thing, so there's no way around it.
Not necessarily. Every company has different "redlines" (the overhead cost of doing an installation). Everything on top of the redline is profit which allows the company to grow and expand and be there for support down the road (Just as any other company). If you lease the system then yes, the solar company takes the tax credit and return gives you a low-fixed monthly payment. There are more benefits to own the system, every situation varies. When you buy the system, you claim that you went solar during tax time, talk to CPA to see eligibility.
This is why i haven’t done the install. They basically feed you a fake loan for 15-18 months then ask for the tax credit money OR they jack up the price per month. I don’t care what profits they want - the tax credit is to help reduce the cost not to gouge homeowners into forking 17K in possible tax credits to some company that moves on and does it over and over again.
@@This1That0 You have two options after month 18. Let's say you receive the full 30% the first year on your taxes. You can take that 30% and go on a dream vacation and pay a higher loan amount or you can imply it back into the loan as which it is initially designed for and lock in the low loan amount.
And let's not forget the roofers
That's how capitalism works. The way around it is to use capitalism -- get a bunch of quotes. There will be some installers willing to do the work at a cost which earns them the profit they need but give you a lower cost. That's how it's supposed to work, anyway. Take note, this system doesn't work if you simply accept the first offer. It's up to you to drive competition.
I have been waiting years for a video like this. Thank you!
(Also, the add that ran after this video was for one of the solar lease schemes. Good chance to apply what I learned!)
Check out the TH-cam channel Undecided. He has some great detail videos about going solar
My house came with a PPA through Vivint and it was a total scam. With Vivint PPA I was paying MORE for electricity than just getting it off the grid. They've been sued by many states because their contracts are so bad. I wish my real estate lawyer had warned me when I was signing papers :/
The ad before this video was for nothing-down solar roof installs.😮
Please, more follow up on this. My concern after recent research is installers may want to use less expensive panels from a less reputable brand. The warranty doesn't matter when the company is gone.
Even the "reputable" companies are subject to being bought/sold/closed and many are in China where all they have to do is hang another shingle on the factory and keep on manufacturing. It's a field where some of the oldest companies are about 20-25 years at the most. It's hard to make a value judgment on warranty based on just that, almost to the point where it's better to assume you'll not have a warranty at all.
@@nominalvelocity That's one thing I wrestled with when I got my system. Sure the panels and inverters have 25 year warranties, but that doesn't mean much if the companies that make them go away. I think my inverter company may stay around, but pretty sure my panel company is already AWOL. I saw that they got combined with another company but when I tried to contact them, they never returned my message. I didn't need work at the time, but I'm guessing they won't be around to honor the warranty if I need it. Despite it's increasing popularity, solar can still be a buyer beware proposition.
In my opinion, the best company to buy panels from right now is REC, and I also would hold Q-cells in decently-high regard. For microinverters, Enphase.
I spoke with a guy I know who is also a GE Aviation engineer who is really into solar, so I trust his opinion. He said the way modern panels are made and work they are super reliable, and if they’re going to have any issue it’ll happen very early in the panel’s life, like a year or two. When you think about it, they don’t have any moving parts or other things to go bad. They just convert solar energy. The inverters are the weak point, but even they are highly reliable in the way they work, and people need to get micro inverters for each panel so if one does go down the rest of your array works and the replacement will be a lot cheaper.
Go with someone that uses panels from a reputable company. Our panels are Panasonic. They weren't the lowest priced, but Panasonic has been around longer than almost anyone currently alive.
You should be able to ask for panels from your installer. If they insist on some no name brand you can't even trace the source from, it's possibly a red flag.
Having said that, the warranty should be something your installer honors as well. If the panels they installed can't be sourced when they fail, there should be a line in the contract where they'll replace them with the next most comparable thing. So long as your installed doesn't go belly up, they SHOULD be honoring the warranty for you.
FYI, there are two loan options. Solar loans are unsecured loans and generally have a higher loan origination fee (cash value + ~20% fee). The second is a home equity loan which is secured. You pay cash value but then interest rate on the loan. I suggest HELOC bc the secured interested is tax deductible bc you are home improving
Just buy a system and do it yourself and get all the tax breaks. We did our own off-grid system and it wasn't hard.
@@Off-GridI did look into doing it myself. But I did not have the time nor the resources to do it. Installing 55 panels on a 30 ft roof and making sure all the installation on a potential tinderbox was done right to code and permitting was done correctly.... Yeah there's a reason some folks can't do it themselves
@@notoryous33 it's not for everyone, I understand that, buty point is that it also isn't difficult. Most of the systems these days are plug and play all in one boxes that mount on a wall and you simple put line A in slot B and turn it on.
Solar installers and others make it seem like an impossible thing that only they can do and that isn't accurate.
#1 way to avoid being scammed buying solar panels…. Do not buy solar panels. 😎
The thing that gets under my skin is that some people encourage me to get solar panels installed but when I ask those people (including my own sister) how much their electricity actually costs them per month, they are rather invasive. They will tell me that they receive a very low electric bill for example like $8, $12, $15 (whatever), but what they won't tell me is how much they pay to rent the panels. However, that is very important. For instance, if your bill is $8.00 but you are renting the panels for $250 per month - in actuality you are paying $258 a month for electricity - not $8!!! I get the impression that they won't disclose that rental amount because they feel foolish or ripped off but don't want to admit it.
Same argument people use regarding Hybrid/EV vehicles. The payment never offers the gas savings.
What are they calling those assessments now days… girl math lol😂 🤦🏻♀️
Great info! Glad to see you calling out bad actors in the industry
Tons of great info here for a first time looker that doesn’t want to be bombarded by salesmen! Thank you!
Remember, the most common type of solar install/lease does not produce power unless the grid is up.
I guarantee you that 20 years from now they’ll be a less intrusive way of collecting solar energy than by putting panels on your roof. It’ll be almost comical really.
I tend to think this way as well. Solar panels for a house are a good idea in theory, I just think right now the product has been bastardized into more of a financial product than a home utility solution
True. In 20 years you will look at those ugly panels on the roof and home buyers will think, yuck. There are real problems putting those things on your home. And removal and fixing are going to be very expensive. I still feel that if you want solar today you need to look at panels on other structures, not your roof.
We couldn't agree more with what was mentioned in this video! This is a must-watch for anyone considering solar!
I installed them myself and then had an electrocian attaching the electrics.
One thing you have to keep in mind is the property value increase and how much additional property tax you might end up paying.
Some states and localities have property tax exemptions. Check your local township.
I didn’t think of that but insurance is increasing a little (getting mine installed next month).
Good to see Richard's son following his dad's footsteps in a more techy way. 😊
When acquiring quotes please ask for the cash price. The financed option will have a low apr that is submerged by a 20-30% "dealer fee". If you plan on paying off the loan early under 10 years, I recommend financing the cash price with a higher APR, if available. If you have enough equity built into the home, a HELOC is a great option.
If solar made money, they would pay you rent to allow them to put it on your roof
Wow! I think I will purchase solar panel contracts for all of my time-share properties, which I bought with money gifted to me by a very nice Nigerian Prince I met online.
I bought a house last year with the 3rd option and my luck was that I have to take over the previous owner lease because they didn't want to pay 7k to remove it
I answered an ad that said this solar company would rent my roof to install solar. When they came they said they didn't want to rent my roof but they could put $60,000 worth of panels in my yard and arrange financing. According to them after 20 yrs the panels would have paid for themselves and I could buy them for $1
So, for 20 years I'd have their panels on my property, with a lien on my property for the $60,000 financing loan and everyone makes money except me, the guy with the roof.
Solar panels have a useful life of 20 years, and that's assuming they've been very well cared for. You must have had gullible written across your forehead.
@@DinnerTimeFanit appears that he didn't have them installed, so you must have "I have no reading comprehension skills" on your forehead....
@@ellybean5868 You're the one that has "I have no reading comprehension skills" written across your forehead. He never would've been approached if he wasn't the biggest shabbos goy in the universe.
@@DinnerTimeFanclearly he's not gullible. He was looking for a solar company. They pitched him a bunch of BS hoping he wouldn't realize or understand because so many in society don't understand finance. He clearly did understand as clearly explained in his post.
A lot of utilities allow you to by your energy from third party energy suppliers including suppliers who use renewable energy sources. If your home isn’t a good fit for a solar panel system or you can’t afford to buy or lease panels, it’s the next best option. The energy will cost a little more but it’s also supporting renewable energy production and growth.
The third option also means that the installer can put a lien on your home.
I lived in an area where the only solar installers in town were scamming people. I was quoted about $15k for the equipment and $15k for install. After looking into the amount of work for an install, this seemed like a big ripoff. Both companies I got quotes from said they could do battery systems, but dragged their feet on giving me a real quote. The primary reason for me to get solar was to have something when the power went out. Neither company told me upfront that I would have no power if the grid went down, but I did my research ahead of time.
There are solar tax credits in Oregon, but consumers are not eligible for them. You 'have' to go through a contractor to get said credit, because the credit goes directly to the contractor, so the the contractors use the credit as a selling point, and simply tell people that what they're quoted is discounted because of the incentive, except the quotes are still ridiculously high. My break-even would have been 20 years.
It feels like the electric companies lobbied to get these incentives passed so that they could expand their capacity with the consumers paying for the equipment. At the end of the day, grid-tied solar benefits the electric companies more than the consumers (at least here in Oregon). Any excess electricity that you don't use as a credit goes to the electric company for free, in which they'll happily sell to someone else. I get that they provide the infrastructure, but this doesn't sit well with me.
Another thing that annoyed me is that one company used US made panels, but that panel manufacturer 'only' sells to installers. A lot of people want solar, it has become considerably cheaper, and corporations are realizing this fact to monopolize the industry. It's so disheartening.
The Inflation Reduction Act Investment Tax Credits go directly to the taxpayer and not the solar installer or the corporate finance companies, unless you sign way those funds in a contract like a lease or power purchase agreement (PPA).
Grid-tied systems are grid dependent. The grid goes down, and so does your solar system to power your house for a very good reason - Lineman trying to fix the grid could get electrocuted from the power in your home solar system. Inverters sense the grid is offline the shut the power off - all inverters are required by law to do this.
You can power your home still during a blackout - if the solar installer installs a transfer switch triggers when the grid power is lost. The switch isolates or "islands" your solar power and directs the power to the home while the grid power is out. In effect, you have gone "off-grid".
Batteries are inevitably used for this situation, because the solar power can be fed into the batteries, and the inverter converts that power to the home. The batteries even out the power feed. If the cloud reduces the sun's input you don't want your light to dim if you did not have batteries. If it is at night, your panels are not generating power, so you have to draw the power from batteries. 2ndLife Batteries sells to solar installers which are very affordable.
After I got my system installed, they ghosted me and was stuck with a non functioning non permitted panels while paying my loan for years! Finally got it working and now I have issues and there's nobody to turn to for help. Run don't walk away from solar panels not worth the trouble and effort time and money wasted!
Good info about solar. As I am from North Carolina I would like to say that there was a company local in state installing solar and they just went out of business because supposedly they had an issue with a part that was supplied by another vender and neither company wanted to warranty the problem with the solar panels. Also the company lied about how much the homeowners would save in electrical cost.
@askthisoldhouse thank you for doing this segment!!!!
Gabe I suggest watch a 13 part series called _What on earth happened_ by Ewaranon to learn that the earth is not a globe.
I got it in my about tab.
Solar is too expensive for most people and not as cost effective as you might think for the minimal benefits derived from solar. It’s another trendy, feel good toy people think they need. The hosts also didn’t address how some insurance companies will cancel your coverage if they believe you over energized your home with too many panels.
You're right! I feel fantastic that I pay nada every month for electricity. Here in SW Florida our AC runs 10 months a year, plus the pool pump runs 8 hours a day. Our electric bills used to average $150.00/$200.00 a month before I had solar installed.
I've had it on my roof for 13yrs now. 1st, my utility only allowed a system that equaled my usage. My homeowners covers it the same as a roof. I had no additional cost or Ryder's on my policy.
I love my $2.90 monthly bill. In 13yrs, my most expensive bill was $22.00 this was one year in February when snow covered the modules for a few weeks...
I avoided it totally. Not allowed o. Homes in our HOA period. Thanks..
We went with a solar coop and found a company with great ratings and good history. Highly recommend.
I've been quoted $50k to 95k, 30% difference in what is needed panel/output wise, hard to get details on it. "We don't finance' and then they talk finance...it all feels very slimey.
How long can I expect a good high quality system to last? And what maintenance is required? We have a 12-12 roof that is nearly impossible to walk around on. This is a great topic and needs hours to fully cover, as like all of you we're getting several promo ads a day. I'm leaning towards cash.
Panels nowadays have a manufacture warranty of 25 years. There was a recently study conducted that most panels will produce at 80% output at year 30.
Absolutely brilliant. Thank you for solving the mystery
Choose green home systems. I received many quotes before deciding on them. My system is installed now and I couldn't be happier. By far best company.
.. you sound like a positive-review bot
@momzwrite nope. Just a homeowner who couldn't be happier with the decision to go solar. You can keep your high electricity bill while I just sit here with no electricity bill lol
Solar can be good, but like they said you really need good solar exposure. And the battery system that goes with it is pretty necessary in most states.
Solar “credits” from overproducing are rare to find at a good rate and often only pay you like 50% or less of what you pay to buy electricity which means to cover your nightly electrical bill you need to produce something like 4x the amount you need during the day.
With a battery that’s not an issue, as you can drain them during the night and build it during the day basically making you your own power plant.
I will say, i don’t have a battery yet and my panels overproduce, and with Rhythm electrical service my electric bill is often $110-$160 throughout the year, whereas previously it could get up to $550 during the summer months and averaged $200-350 in cooler months.
So with the solar loan plus my electric bill I’m STILL saving $100-250 a month on electric. And I live in the humid south, so ac all day and night is a requirement. Once the batteries get cheap enough that financing is cheaper than that amount, I’ll get one.
Still see ads from scammy companies on YT saying it’s the last year to get a credit even though the credit was increased and extended by 10 years a while.
Sad that YT/Google has zero integrity and won’t refuse to show scam ads with false information.
No freaking way....... anyone that shows up at my door - I tell them to leave. Too many if's........
The irony of TH-cam putting a solar panel ad before I can watch this video was not lost on me.
I literally just had a solar panel advertisement for this video.
Nextdoor would be a great asset to see who had solar installed in your area and their experience.
On the question of payback being a decision for going solar. Installing solar is definitely for a home you are going to stay in. If that is the case, then the instant you install solar and batteries you are getting paid back by having your monthly utility payment being used to fund your energy independence and by reducing the pollution created by fossil fuel energy. Once you've recovered the cost of going solar, your investment is now putting money back in your pocket to save or reinvest. Solar is a great long-term investment and gives you energy independence, less pollution and a healthier life for everyone.
It's something like half the cost to do the installation yourself as the home owner because the solar PV installation industry has been largely a protected industry by keeping installation knowledge, components, and equipment unavailable at your local home improvement centers. By and large there's been no literature beyond general knowledge explaining all the installation steps such as, methods, math, where to source needed information to do the necessary calcs, codes, components, equipment, specifications, options, industrial practices and standards, and so on.
I've been an electrical contractor since the 80's, but I had to do a serious deep dive a few years ago digging up what little available information that wasn't hidden from those outside of the industry I could get on how to design, decide which system type was best for the situation, do the calcs, comply with codes, and figure out what were the appropriate components and equipment needed for that particular system and the intended use.
If a home owner is willing to do the work themselves, they can easily save on the grossly inflated installation cost, usually cutting the overall price roughly in half. The solar installation companies been making a killing on a protected market that has no competition from DIY home centers, nor from the vast majority of electrical contractors. It's been this way since the beginning back in the 70's.
Good info, but my roof is a 45 degree pitch. I wouldn’t go on it even if I got the equipment for free. 😉
*_Dear This Old House,_*
Can you guys also do a program on *How To Avoid Heat Pump Scams?*
I just got a heat pump this year and while I don't feel like I got scammed there were a couple gotchas that I want prepared for even with a couple months of research.
One was that it was overcharged with refrigerant when installed because it was below freezing, so it kept over pressurizing in heating mode and failing back to the backup furnace. At least the furnace was slightly more efficient than the one it replaced, but I missed out on 3-4 months of savings when heating costs were the highest while Russia was invading Ukraine.
The other is that it will defrost on a regular interval anytime temperature is near or below freezing even if there's not much humidity where you are and there's no frost accumulation.
I put together a detailed spreadsheet to estimate cost savings, but I haven't gotten much real data yet because of the overcharge issue last winter. It worked great October, I'm sure it was cheaper than running there furnace, but I haven't run numbers to see how much yet and this October was warmer than usual anyway.
@@extragoode
Thanks for that info.
I suppose that your point about humidity is a place where manufacturers can improve the design by either including sensors, or use the internet to gather data on humidity and thus program it not to unnecessarily defrost.
@@mbgrafix the sensors are already there, at least on mine, and the length of the defrost cycle changes based on those sensors, but I think it's kind of used as a safeguard of sorts. It wouldn't be as big of a deal, but if my backup furnace was resistive electric, but that would've required me to replace my electrical service panel and the price was already getting too high, so my backup is still propane.
No what's literally unbelievable is that This Old House. What I thought was an established trustworthy brand left out the fact that the third option. The lean for the solar panels would mean that if you weren't able to pay them and you accrued enough dept. They could essentially at the end of that rabbit hole cease your home because you can't file bankruptcy on a lien. Never go with the third option is what you should listen to. That's what a honorable non sponsored opinion would say.
Solar is fantastic in regards that you can start small and add over time. Start with one panel and an inverter first.
Solar is the future so get on board but the scammers will take advantage of your ignorance. My electric company has a program to advise people and they told me the orentation of my roof was poor for a solar install not a good idea. The first company I contacted I informed them there could not be a roof mounted system. They came back with a system design for solar panels on the roof and a financing plan. That told me all I needed to know their system would cost 85k to install on my roof. So I did my research bought my equipment and hired a reputable solar installer to install a ground mount system with the proper angle for the panel orientation. I have a complete 10k system installed for 25k out of pocket. Do your homework know what you are buying any why.
Very concise breakdown. Thank you.
We bought a Tesla solar system through a 10 yr loan with a powerwall. Tesla System was considerably priced lower when compared to Sunrun hence our decision to go with Tesla. Tesla will not offer renewable energy credits if you want to go with their system. Tesla does not have good customer service. If you go with Tesla make sure the installation is done correctly. Our system was not producing the kWh based on the system because of improper installation. It took a few site visits for Tesla technicians to fix the issue. Tesla only offered $400 in credit after many hours going back and forth in emails and calls. They mentioned that there is no guarantee on the production since the system was purchased even though it was due to improper installation. I have not received my true up because it’s been less than a year, however I anticipate to owe $ to my utility company due to lack of production from the system. Very disappointed with the customer service overall.
Got a solar scam ad on this video lol
I spent a month reading reviews to find the best equipment available and then I found a company that also installed that equipment. If the installers use low quality equipment then that's a red flag.
there is one question no one ever asks about solar panels, "what is the environmental cost to produce and install panels?" and "how long will it take to regain those environmental savings?"
Everything is always expressed in dollars and in regards to electricity only.
i thought it was all about the environment.
BTW, i own a gas guzzling F150, but have purchased enough carbon credits that my truck now has a zero emissions footprint. I believe Mother Nature is happy now.
Thank you for this video. I had my solar installed 2021 it was nightmare my roof leaked twice. Solar company did not diclose condition of my roof. Horrible customer service. I had 2nd roof leak since Jan or Feb 2023 and 2nd sub contractor finished reinstalling my solar yesterday not to mention they have to come back again for 5th time to replaced broken tiles they broke. It is making me sick right now. I am suffering emotional and mentally distress since 2022.
It would help if TH-cam stopped running Solar Panel ads incessantly.
Great information, thanks.
Two things this video missed out on. For one, a big thing the scammy places like to ignore is that most of the time, those tax rebates for solar require you to make enough money that you have a substantial tax liability for the rebate to cover. If you make a lot of money, so you pay a ton in taxes (not including social security and medicare taxes that you can't get back), then you might get the full value of the rebate. But if your typical liability is less than the rebate, you will get less or possibly no benefit. The second issue is how long the solar panels are good for, they naturally degrade over time, and depending on various factors (weather, how well they were installed, how well they are maintained) you might need to replace them sooner than the companies claim. If you do a search for how long solar panels last, you are going to find literally dozens of sites from companies selling solar promising 25-30 years, but in reality many of them won't last that long (some will last longer, again depending on the factors and quality of the panel itself). Also other parts have to replaced more often, like inverters every 10-15 years on average, and batteries (because of capacity loss, just like how a brand new phone lasts so much longer than one you have had a few years, because of the constant charge cycling). And unfortunately battery disposal is an environmental problem, as is the mining and creation of them (puts a little damper on environmentalism. But they are still useful for Quality of Life, especially as more places run into situations where their power grids are less reliable). So don't believe most of what the salespeople will tell you, too often they are trained on sales-not on the actual science behind it (though they throw out all the proper claims and buzzwords to make people believe they are knowledgeable). Do your own research from sites that are neutral, not any places that actively promote solar and offer direct sales or links to places that do sell them. Just get the straight details, find out the specific maker and models of the panels the company uses and get details on things like their degradation rate and life expectancy. Powering your home with solar is a big investment, and you want to be as well-informed as you can be before making a decision.
Thank you, Michael. My question was exactly what you addressed. What if you did not have to pay a lot taxes, due to low income?
You can roll over any tax benefit you were not able to use that certain year.
Complications of putting solar panels on an old roof was something I hand't considered before. Shingle roofs are typically re-singled in twenty years. Any thing on the roof will have to be removed and reinstalled. Making a point that incentives pervert the solar photovoltaic panel installation market was an appropriate strong word. Many of the companies only exist due to government incentives.
When the underling financial viability is subject to the next State legislative session along with sales hype there can be very little real value taking place. The real value although overly expensive is solar with battery storage for backup power. That also creates grid quality electricity which solar and wind are not.
A residential roof is not designed for the additional wind loads of solar panels. In tropical storm prone areas such as Florida having solar panels on a roof will make the roof much more likely to be damaged in high winds. Homeowners in Florida have their home insurance policies dropped when installing solar panels on the roof finding it nearly impossible to get new home owners insurance at any price.
New England has some of the most expensive electricity in the continental USA outside Southern California about three times where it should be at about $0.30 kWh. With new technology and increasing efficiencies of operation relative grid power electricity rates should be coming down with time. In 2020 in the Cumberland suburb of Indianapolis Indiana our residential electric rate was $0.10 kWh. Indianapolis was $0.12 kWh.
No it is not cheaper to get solar, in many decisions, the cost is simply a deferred long term note.
The metering company or the local utility company is going to get the most of the 80% use of your solar panel power while you pay monthly for 20 plus years or more.
Why would you want to do this.
If your roof fails, who is going to remove your panel to replace your roof? You do.
When you sell your home or buy home with solar panels installed, it is conveyed as part of the home. That would mean the original contract holder would have to include in the price the cost to replace or to assume the liability of the note due.
Buyer and seller, be ware.
"The metering company or the local utility company is going to get the most of the 80% use of your solar panel power while you pay monthly for 20 plus years or more."
This is patently false.
I bought my own battery and solar system for about $11,000 and installed it myself with an electrician friend and pulled my own owner/builder permit. Then I took the 30% tax credit. My payback or break even point Is about four years and it will only get better because electric rates are rising again. Not to mention, when I have a power outage, 90% of my house stays up and running.
How long do the batteries last? Less acid?
@@jordanrussell345 the batteries are lithium. 10 year warranty and I cycle them every day.
That's great but not everyone has the skill to do that, or an electrician friend. I installed my own small off-grid ground-mount system and it was a pretty steep learning curve. I would not recommend it to anyone without a lot of mechanical and technical/engineering experience.
Very Informative. THANK YOU!
Power Home Solar was scamming homeowners. They changed their name to Pink Energy trying to get away from their issues. Still scamming homeowners so they called it quits.
Powerhome is a joke. There are good companies in the industry !
Rob Wocheck did a great news piece on those goons.
Just don't put them on your home. That more logical. Just try to monitor your electricity use.
When they come to my door I tell them they are too late and "I'm getting solar installed tomorrow."
Another option is to tell them you're moving in a few months. Or you're a renter.
Why not take a personal loan with a cheaper rate and pay cash. It will be a lower monthly payment compared to financing with the company.
Don't pay over $3-3.5 per kW on a solar install. Avoid any quotes that are more costly. Also, the 30% solar credit only works if you have enough taxable income to apply the tax credit against income tax owed. If you are a retiree with little taxable income, you may never recover that 30% credit. The sales pitches are hard selling this illusive "tax credit" to people that may never qualify or take years to apply the credit against owed federal and state income taxes!
funny. the ad i saw here is solar
The problem is, it's really hard to find anyone willing to install and sell you a solar system. Virtually everyone, at least around here, is lease only because they want all of the ongoing revenue. Plus, there are a lot of companies that, if you're not a heavy-duty power user, they won't install it at all because they're looking for those big paydays when you save power. A neighbor couldn't get solar installed because they refused to rent the system and they only averaged about $100 a month in electrical costs. The companies all just walked away.
That's a shame, here in NC there are at least 4 locally-owned companies that are competing for business to sell you a system outright.
That said, our power is also cheap, so the ROI time is more like 10-15 years, not the 5-7 years that Ross says in the video. If you're using a very small number of kWh, your ROI time might not be within the lifetime of the system.
@@dtemp132 My sister got a system and her ROI was 3-4 years. She didn't need a lot of panels and she only takes power from the grid in the summer and it's less than $20 a month maximum. Too bad the company she got them from no longer sells outright. It's all rental.
It is worse for us. Our HOA forbids solar.
@@edwardrhoads7283 That's one reason that our #1 requirement when we buy a new house is no HOAs, period.
@@edwardrhoads7283 depending on what your state laws are you might still be able to get solar regardless of what the HOA says. Our HOA had to modify the indentures to permit solar since Illinois made it illegal to deny it.
He should have emphasized how bad a lease is
Avoid solar panel scams. ............ don't have them installed?
Gird tie not as good of a deal as it used to most utilities have backed way off on the amount of money, they pay you. They also limit how big of a system you can install so you can't oversize to increase the amount you are paid. The idea being they don't want you having a $10 a month electric bill because they have to pay to maintain a big power grid, power plants, and employees. The only future for solar is off grid with battery storage then you don't need a utility. Prices have come way down from what it used to be with battery storage. Right now, it's about 20-25 cents a watt for a lithium iron phosphate battery.
How to avoid scams: 1- never say yes to someone soliciting on the phne 2- call the solar company directly after investigating on Better Business Bureau. 3 -Enjoy
The ad before this was for solar.
Wish I had this problem. I can’t get an installer to my house. Will have my electrician learn it and do It for me.
Big greedy businesses ruin everything.
One company that does solar and pretty upfront about the costs is tesla.
We don't get much sun in my city, and my house has no real area to put panels on that would look decent and work well. Instead I invested in my electric company's community solar plan.
The credits only come to you if you sissified meaning if you pay enough taxes?
What if you don't pay that many taxes to wualify for the tax credit?
You do not have to always put solar on the roof.
I would definitely suggest a ground mount system, if you have the property. Much easier to clean and service and also get the optimal exposure. Unfortunately it's an option few have.
@@gizmobowen Oh yeah. I live not too far from people that went with a large panel on a post that moves and tilts for optimism exposure and they were great at explaining the process and the company that did the work. Now that I am ready to proceed in that direction so many people are trying to steer me away from this type of system and sing praises of roof applications. Mmmm. I am standing my ground however as I don’t want a roof system. To me it is a “no brainer” to go with the system I mentioned.
@@louisel.sinniger2057 tracking systems add moving parts that break, but keep the output higher. Unless you're extremely limited in your installation size, which you shouldn't be too much for a ground mount system, consider adding more panels to equal the output you'd get from a tracking system and leaving them static.
@@extragoode Hi Jon, Thanks for the feed back. Yeah, I know what you indicate about moving parts and breakage. The thing that impressed me about those solar panels I looked at was that it had enough clearance to be adjusted for the change of angle of the sun at different times of the year as well as thru the day. It could be done manually or electronically. So far these people are very happy with having done this, no issues so far. I am the type of individual that manages “preventative” maintenance on my home. I have been spending years researching this as well as the people that install them. I live way out in the country on a hill overlooking the valley without trees near by to interfere with sun exposure so I do feel fortunate in that way. Cheers
@@louisel.sinniger2057 multi axis tracking systems are very cool and absolutely capable of adjusting for the seasonal and daily changes, I was just suggesting considering a simple, boring, non moving solution and see how it compares. Either option for solar is great and much better than no solar generation at all.
They did not speak about power purchase agreements!
My F150(ICE) truck no longer emits carbon. I purchased all these carbon credits to offset those emissions. So my truck is now considered carbon neutral.
This is the nonsense thinking that is pushed...and some people actually buy into it. Especially when it comes to business and industry.
Didn’t know about the reroof bundle credits. That’s kind of sick.
I have a bathroom vanity problem. Looking for suggestions of something I might not have thought about. The vanity granite top is about 42", while the vanity is about 41" (sorry about the "abouts) because I can't remeasure at the moment. It is being installed between 2 walls that are 43.5" wide. One wall is a long wall, while the other is 12", so the vanity sits out about 10" past the end of that wall. Here are the only things I can come up with. Have sidesplash's made thicker than normal (and make a ledge for it to rest on, and allowing it to rest on the granite top by about 1/8-1/4", and using a gap filler on sides of actual cabinet. The backsplash will need to be custom made as well , but perhaps not as thick because of the faucet controls. I thought about putting another piece of sheetrock up all the way to ceiling to fill the space but that is too much trouble and messy and would need to really thicker than sheetrock. If anyone has tackled this and has pics, I'd love to see them. Thank you all!
I have an inverter that is not working and l have 11 solar panels. The panels have been there maybe 20 yrs. I had a company pushing a TPO to me. As an elderly person l don’t want to be locked on to a 25 yr lease. Can l just get the old panels removed d and just use Edison as my energy company. I am losing sleep trying to figure out what to do. Since my bill from Edison is $162. Plus the net metering of another $134. I am not saving any money. Any info would be appreciated.
This great to know thank you! Just had a solar company try to sell me a lease about 4 hours ago! Some of these sales people are savages saying whatever true or not. Had to tell him i dont agree to anything unless its in writing and written in plain understandable English.
I can see it now...hi we're calling about your solar extended warranty😅
Never rent or lease solar, get 3-4 quotes and if you can, DIY as much as possible.
Sunrun gives the new owner has a plan to purchase or not. There's options.
their selling loans not solar
What if you live in area where hurricane or tornado season is a every year thing.
Can anyone clarify the tax rules for what they were taking about regarding applying the tax credit to the cost of a new roof? I have heard arguments on both sides. The roofing and solar companies claim that you can get the 30% tax credit applied to the solar AND a new roof if done at the same time. My tax guy says the tax code makes it very clear that the only roof that you can get the tax credit for is a solar roof where the tiles are the roofing material. eg) a tesla solar roof. After reading the tax rules myself it does seem pretty clear that a shingle comp roof doesn't apply and it wouldn't hold up in an audit. Im in the process of getting solar and a roof and would love to get the credit on both.
In the same boat here if anyone has more info it would be appreciated .
Your tax guy has it right. In fact when it comes to tax credits don’t take anyone’s advice over your accountant.
The IRS even put out a bulletin last year saying that the roof doesn’t qualify for the tax credit. This was an unfortunate mistake in this otherwise great video.
CPA is right. Roofing and Solar Salespeople saying you can claim the credit for your re-roof are just trying to close the sale. If you do get audited and tell the IRS that some salespeople told you it was ok, I don't think that's going to work out too well for you.
It used to be a grey area, but the IRS has issued clarification:
Q. Is a roof eligible for the residential energy efficient property tax credit?
A. In general, traditional roofing materials and structural components do not qualify for the credit. However, some solar roofing tiles and solar roofing shingles serve as solar electric collectors while also performing the function of traditional roofing, serving both the functions of solar electric generation and structural support and such items may qualify for the credit. Components such as a roof's decking or rafters that serve only a roofing or structural function do not qualify for the credit.
Source:
www.irs.gov/newsroom/energy-incentives-for-individuals-residential-property-updated-questions-and-answers
Good video, but you failed to mention the new installed roof warranty could become void once the solar panels are installed atop it..
That isn't true. We checked before installing our own off-grid system by ourselves and are fully covered still. Oir insurance company also had an added policy for the panels and roof replacement that was very cheap.
@@Off-Grid
Funny I don't recall mentioning anything about insurance.
Perhaps you could be so kind as to point out where in my comment I mention it..
@@RSTI191 warranty and insurance go hand in hand. If you're saying that the warranty is void, which it isn't, then the next step would be insurance to replace a roof.
@@Off-Grid
Next time your GE Washer craps out and is still "under warranty", call State Farm being that they walk "Hand in Hand", get back to me when they tell you what to do.
You should quit while you're behind..
@@RSTI191 a roof is not an appliance. You need to rethink your flawed logic and grow up a bit.
Install on carports sheds not the main roof.
Finance your own loan and avoid the prooerty lien and the take the tax credit for yourself.
What about the homeowners that don’t qualify to get the tax credit.
I would like to see the payback per year for different parts of the country which would include all the tax credits, rebates, utility purchase agreements. Chatting about it does not equate to a financial analysis.