0:00 Intro 0:56 Daniel and Alan's summer 5:58 The RTA controversy, How big is the edge? 16:59 Where should the line be drawn? 25:31 How to enforce the rules? 40:48 Dominik's response 46:24 Opinion of the masses 51:01 Rule changes to make tournaments more fun 1:14:25 GGPoker, Game of Gold 1:21:14 Aftermath of the Main Event 1:28:08 Poker is in a good place 1:33:14 WSOP Winter 1:43:10 Outro
When does the trash talking start? I dont like "nice Doug", if he's not calling the best poker player in the world a loser, then how do I know its really him? Maybe Daniel paid him off with a ton of new hair gel based on whale blubber to sweeten the pot.
You can have different levels of the rail too. The floor seats can't have electronics and the electronics must stay behind level 2 or level 3 so far in the back and not accessible by the players.
If these scummy pros do this at the final table of the Main Event with most of the poker world watching, think of what they’re doing online where no one can see them.
That was my thought. They're basically telling me unless I cheat, I basically don't have a chance online. I could be Kasparov, but I'm playing against Big Blue, every hand, every session, every day. I DON'T understand why they keep saying you can't do stuff online. How can they possibly believe that it is controllable? "You know, some realization, at least, that this is wrong" - D. Negreanu while wearing a GG hat.
as a technology engineer I'm surprised nobody is talking about the fact that bluetooth headphones are allowed at the table. You can connect a set or airpods for instance to anything you want. I could easily connect my headphones to somebody elses phone or computer. I could put 1 headphone from my set and one from a partners set in a case and call them both my own. There are a lot of ways to cheat using these that I can think of in just 30 seconds of thinking about it. It would be very easy to feed real time information to somebody using the headphones. The laptop part of it. I get the argument on solvers and what not and agree it shouldn't be allowed but the headsets are where the real cheating can happen.
Yep it would be far too easy to cheat. Having instant information and partners that are tracking past players hands. Guys are wearing Bluetooth headphones that have microphones. It wouldn't look unusual at all for a player to talk out loud about whether to call an all-in.
Dealers should be tasked with removing them. Sorry if you want your music or whatever but this is professional poker. Money is involved. Get used to the annoying chip flipping orrr don't play.
Amazing to see Doug and Daniel just talk. Two very smart guys, I get why they often get into the trolling/drama but IMO this is so much better. Keating is just gold, clearly has well thought out opinions but open to duscussion and feedback.
The edge gained from using the solver between hands is not only limited to the cards. The fact that he's getting reassurance on his decisions and not muddying his mind from wondering if his decisions were correct or not can give a huge advantage.
So instead of players looking for tells, remembering what other players did previously. You can now have people on the sidelines remember for you. Lets also ignore the fact two of them have ear pieces to send info. Plus a labtop with a SOLVER.
funny how everybody thinks famous gamblers are super rich. Many of them are worth $10 million yesterday but today they're worth negative $5M. Many of them die homeless or in a rest home completely broke. It's not a lifestyle for everyone, you have to be mentally strong and very positive thinking all the time.
How about no coaching at all. Collusion risk is through the roof. Why are coaches also playing the same match as their “student”? Seems ripe for collusion
Dumb rule. Theres a big difference between talking strategy with your rail and actually having a laptop and looking at ranges and a solver. As Doug said the edge is probably quite slim and thats with a laptop. This is not really an edge problem, its a optics problem.
Nothing wrong with it, just not during the actual hand... Every other sport you can... They are turning a toothpick into a lumber yard with this... Its the problem with content creators now... Tamayo's friends were on solvers... Illegal? Maybe, gray area... Yes he was looking and asking, but it's hard to enforce... Imagine a fan putting a phone with a solver on it in Scott Seivers face and a picture comes out... Does he lose all 3 bracelets? Just No electronic devices at the table and you'll be fine... You really can't enforce the use of electronics away from the table... You just can't do it
Yea for sure. I get it would be difficult to manage at the beginning of the tourney with so many players, but at least towards the end they shouldn't allow it
It is quite literally impossible to enforce this. During a hand, absolutely, but once the hand is over players should be able to confer with who or whatever they want and there's no way to prevent it. You're saying players on break from a tourney can't text their buddy about some hands and get feedback?
What’s the point of having rules if they aren’t enforced. When it comes to cheating, the rules need to be changed from “could be disqualified,” to “will be disqualified.”
@@darrylmeeking6839 It was announced over the PA before EVERY tournament that RTA is not allowed in the tournament area. I heard it myself when I played. Why it wasn't enforced on the biggest stage in poker is absurd
@@rmx.indiana8306 some poker players are excusing the nerds claiming that that announcement was too vague or only dive at the start of a tourney when not everyone was there 😂 I mean they come up with any excuse… I reckon now that 80% are total cheats
No phones, no laptops, no rail. No outside help what so ever. Extreme rules however that shows who’s the best. That shows who came with most knowledge and when things aren’t going your way you have no one to help motivate you.
Yes use solvers, all you want, until you are at a table and playing poker. All that knowledge should be held in your head as much as poss, and play your hand. Not let an app or program aid you. Mobiles should not be at the table, and switched off. During the breaks, use your damn mobile.
Yeah 100%. I'm not as big of a fan of banning rails or anything like that because ultimately they have to treat the main event as a spectator sport and having people on the rail creates more excitement. But I'm 100% down with no electronics in the room. Put them through security scanners.
"If" lol. If you think there's even a silver of a chance that the WSOP retroactively DQs Tamayo or strips the title, you need to check yourself into a mental institution because you are delusional.
@@shawnwilley3345 You didn't use punctuation to end your sentence nor did you capitalize the first word of your sentence. Lastly, 'A spelled "sliver" wrong" isn't a coherent sentence. It's pretty dumb to be a grammar nazi anytime you see a typo, but if you're going to do it may I suggest not making more errors than the post you're calling out?
Maybe I'm wrong for thinking of it in this way, but if this was legal would anyone watch a final table where all the players are running to the rail to look at a computer in between hands to see what they should be doing?
Better way to think about it is, why would any non pro who doesn't have a solver crew ever play these tournaments. It's stupid, I hope no one plays next year, the WSOP corporation is filled with trash.
@@roccitysoundllc3404 That's what the steroid users in baseball were saying too. If it didn't do much, then why do it at all? If they want team poker, then create a separate event. I don't even think they should be able to look at the delayed stream to get info, much less do what they did here.
I disagree that the "edge" was too low. Not knowing what they were running, I will take a shot in the dark and say that their sim wasn't just situational GTO and tailored to Grif specifically. They might have had each hand and how he played from the final table input int here. Everything from the final 3 to the heads up match, I think this edge could have been much, much more tailored. With that information A.I. could even deviate from proper play based on the hands recorded in whatever size sample they were able to obtain.
Are those rooms just left off the casino's radar? As far as I know casino's are notorious for keeping track of people gambling, it's a casino lol. I think keeping a fair amount of surveillance wouldn't be out of their scope of ability like at all.
They were running a solver program called Monkersolver, which can easily be used for RTA in NL HU because the game trees aren't that large (less RAM used). They can just browse the presolved solutions in real-time.
@@konar01 another thing, why was that post win hug so AWKWARD? the hand off of something. People say headphones are allowed in play blah blah, thats fine, but their body language suggested they felt some sort of fear because something nefarious was in play.
Dom is very boisterous about what he did for Tamayo and is doubling down on it. Which is honestly dumb for someone as smart as he is.. he is admitting on his twitter posts to everything he did and using it to campaign his product for future final tables.. that’s not a good thing if he feels he is above the law.. he knew what he was doing, he just proceeded and said we will ask for forgiveness later. The WSOP is still silent on this which is why people are losing faith in the integrity of the brand. Full transparency is needed. Why so much sweeping under the rug? From a legal background the word “may” is where everything by went wrong.. the word should have been “shall” be disqualified I wouldn’t be surprised to see some sort of gaming license probation or warning from the NGC. I mean look what happened to Scott Sibella the NGC doesn’t play games.
That guy's reasoning was utterly inf nt le, roughly, "My job is to make money." So is a drug dealer's, an assassin's, a slaver's, an arms dealer's, etc... It is an excuse that is even used all the way at the top by Warren Buffett, who has said, "That's not my job," when confronted about his companies' shortcomings to humanity. The logic of most poker pros is shocking, in general They are about promoting the game of gambling to prospective "fish" as they openly call them amongst themselves and even openly in articles, then going out to find said "fish", and not "bleeding them dry too quickly". After their zero-sum daily routine, they have helped fund the casino that destroyed the community it was built in that assisted people in destroying their lives either in short swoops or in wasting away over the years in front if slot machines. Casinos offer... some jobs to the community? The same amount of jobs could have existed without them for any number of things. And Las Vegas is humanity's ultimate disgrace. So why do I watch poker videos? The main event final table is interesting but maybe I'm wrong for watching even that.
Super simple... no tech in the poker room. there is precedence for this in the chess world where a computer can destroy a human player 99/100 times. all players basically go through TSA.
How do you ban sunglasses when people wear regular glasses with tints or transitions, have someone using a photometer and measuring light transfer? Not to mention people could just wear big hats. Maybe naked poker is the answer.
What about the guys he beat to get to the final table? I believe everyone he played against could file a class action lawsuit against hi, his team and the tournament hosts too.
What Tamayo and Nitsche have done, definitely cooled down my enthousiasm for playing poker. I didn't play since then and I'm still disappointed about them doing cheating stuff wide open in HU play of the WSOP ME. Even against an amateur, what makes it even worse for me. My desire for playing the Main once is certainly less now at this point.
How can this Tamao guy look at himself in the mirror and be proud that he won....? He and these other two or three guys knew they were doing wrong, were pushing the boundaries as much as they could, and not caring what anyone thought. So blatant, so greedy. It's not the World Series of Cheating, the World Series of Coaching, or the World Series of Laptops. It's not 5 players per hand.....it is one player per hand. The earbud hiding and passing is another part of this. Someone at the final table should have said something. These guys should be disqualified and barred. Pathetic.
That's modern sport, you have to do everything in your power to gain the advantage. It's not cheating if you don't break any rules. Every sport has a degree of statistical analysis and every athlete can gain an advantage from getting the right information from it. If you are not actively looking for that advantage within the ruleset, then the only thing you're doing is putting yourself at a disadvantage. This is why modern sport needs modern rules. You cannot rely on a rules set from the 1960's to have thought about artificial intelligence and how it can be utilised.
The truth is the solver usage technically fell in a 'grey area' and thus not really punishable. It is obvious Tamayo and his cronies knew this as they did nothing to hide their using their laptop. I may not like it, but the reality is that there is nothing that can be done other than eliminate the grey area for future tournaments. The real issue I have is Tamayo using a hidden earbud , which was explicitly banned for the final table. It is obvious to everyone that He and his crew KNEW this was against the rules as the earbud was kept hidden under Tamayo's hoodie all the way through to the end when he was caught on camera taking it out and quickly giving it to his buddy. Why was he using the earbud when it was against the rules, and why is its use not being brought up more? It's obvious that Tamayo's rail was using the laptop program to not only help Tamayo play his own hands better mathematically, they were also using it to statistically predict what cards Griff was holding based on his playing and betting patterns. The earbud would be absolutely necessary for them to secretly tell Tamayo when to push all-in or fold in real time, giving Tamayo a statistical edge over Griff every time.
This type of thing is actually covered by Nevada statutes. And those statutes were without a doubt broken. If lawsuits start to fly, Tamayo, his team, AND WSOP will be on the hook. I wouldn't be surprised if the Nevada gaming control board gets involved soon (or has already). Every other player at that final table has a very good case, if they choose to pursue it.
The earbud that fell off when he hugged his railed belonged to the person next to him. There’s another video from a different angle showing no earbud in Tamayos ear before hugging his tail.
@@DDpokerrthere's also a whole stream where he wears his hoodie and zoomed in you can see one ear no pod, one ear has the white pod in... Then you see his rail and the guy has one white ear pod in..... Looks very very suspicious.
Listen, if the commission is going to stream and profit off of streaming a final table or event they should be able to have the necessary staff to police and protect the players. If there’s a rail being created, it should be monitored.
If you would want to remove bubble stalling, could they just not announce how many players are left? - assuming it's possible to say what the mode BB amount is without giving away the number of players.
I don’t think we know if he was using the solver in hand. If the earpiece was paired with that computer he could have been receiving queues during hands via the earpiece.
I think you go to chess rules. They are actively dealing with the same issues. Just remove electronics from the area and have greater separation between spectators and players.
I'm all for charts and solvers. I think they can be great learning tools and contain a ton of info. They just should not ever be used at a table during play, by anyone at all. When you sit down at a poker table, you bring you. No charts, no solvers, no teams using solvers advising you. Just you. Fight fair, and fight clean at the poker table.
I feel bad for the dude who came 2nd and found out what was happening. He should be proud of how he dealt with the situation. I would have caused chaos.
I have not played the main, but have thought about it for years, and there's no way on Earth I'd torch $10 grand by entering a tournament that allows this type of thing. No way. Zero electronics at the table or in the crowd, period.
How about we start here: You cannot be using a phone or laptop while seated at a table; and you must be seated to be in a hand. That was the rule when I started playing back in 2001; and that was before everyone had a smartphone.
The video of the winner handing off his ear bud to his buddy on the rail who handed it off to another looks wildly suspect. Wonder if he was being fed info even more real time. Having the ear piece shading look compounded with the laptop, seems there is more than meets the eye.
The earpod came from the fat bearded guy... not from the player. It was cut to make it looks suspicious... of which, it succeeded. The player wasn't wearing an earpod at the table. If you watch the PokerGo YT final table at 46:06-9 mark, he clearly does not have an airpod and the fat guy does.
@@jyyyb That was in a prior session... not same time as the misleading video trying to imply that he had it on the last hand of the final table. You can believe what you want, but he clearly did not have any airpod on the final table final hand.
I was at a ft w Landon Tice and dude was on his phone every single second he was not in a hand .. extremely frustrating knowing what’s he’s doing on it and not being able to do anything about it
No matter how small the advantage is that you get using solvers on the final table it´s still an advantage and it´s unfair using it against someone who isn´t. Maybe they should have cameras behind the rail so they can check ppl using RTA. Also on the final table or in general, there should be no covering up your ears with a hoodie so that there is no possibility of someone having an earpiece.
@Doug Polk Poker What about installing a television in the rail like sportsbar vibe and have movie theatre rules essentially of no electronics along with the eye in the sky/in person security? Might be a stupid suggestion but I have never been there or played in it?
Poker is supposed to be a battle of wits. All preparation should be done before the tournament. Just like in chess. Could you imagine if in the world chess championship between moves each side had a laptop and had stockfish chess engine running and depending on what the opponent move was it would tell you what to move next! My god we have completely eliminated the point of the game, it’s a battle of wits between humans, not a battle of which computer/solver reigns supreme.
Controversial (sort of sarcastic) opinion follows: there is huge difference between poker and chess. I've never met anyone who studied chess to have profitable ev. Being a player of both for about 3 decades, chess players come to the game to test their strategies and brain in a game that was played by the "wise". Poker players come to the table to make money. Any way they can. In a game that was played by outlaws and cheats.
@@FriendsForFriends666 Wait what? So poker players aren't trying to test their strategies and brain? And since it's all about money you should expect and allow cheating? There are some differences of course but heads-up poker and chess are both games of strategy and skill and should be played mano-a-mano without external aid. End of story.
@@jiib321 yes, they are supposed to test their strategies. For being profitable. And if the most profitable decision is to get a laptop with rta on it and dom helping you every hand from the rail you do that and win and people complain but you got the bag. I haven't seen that mentality in chess.
@@FriendsForFriends666 that mentality has been used in chess and they were called out as cheaters. When the game starts it’s supposed to be between humans, no computer engines/solvers. The difference between poker/chess is that everyone in chess already understands and knows this to be cheating, but in poker apparently not.
A newbie poker player could come in using a solver which negates my years of experience. I don't need a solver, it's in my head so it's not fair for anyone, experienced or not, to use a solver! Any kind advantage other that the advantage that comes with experience should be banned at the table!👍😎✌🗽
Doug I really enjoyed your podcast. Your questions were right on target! The comments were lighthearted but very accurate. I hope the tournament directors watch your podcasts and make the significant changes. If they don’t I fear the situations will become more brazen. And the results will no be good for the game! Mike
my take is WSOP is at fault here for not clearly enforcing the rules, it was the final table you don’t need to call out the floor to check if someone was cheating. Wsop has only one table to monitor out of hundreds before so thats grave negligence on their part
If they do it so blatantly do it on the biggest/most watched live poker event, how do you honestly expect them not to use it from the comfort of their own homes online?
Watched Daniel for years. Have his books and play holdem every week. Old retired nurse lady beating thr boys now woowho! Great vid thanks. Will keep Learning.
Heads up displays were banned from online poker and there isnt any difference in it from what happened. Hes disqualified and everyone bumps up a pay jump, no champion, until the other 8 come back and diluke it out for the bracelet. What a scumbag thing to do.
The problem is nothing was enforced and no one said anything about it during the tournament, so the result will stand. They’ll have to make changes for next year’s tournament.
It's a matter of table etiquette as well, in the honourable/sporting sort of way. Like Dan said, studying is well and good, but that's not what we're doing. It's like taking a crib sheet into a final exam, you're not just invalidating the work other people have put in (low magnitude notwithstanding), but more importantly it defeats the purpose of the exercise. We're not competing to see who can work a solver best, but who can play best in the moment.
You spoke about the players policing themselves. If you hang large signs describing the rule, this empowers players to confront rule-breakers and call for floor managers if needed.
If the advantage is minimal, then why the hell did Doug study solvers for months before playing Daniel heads up? I call BS. It was straight up cheating. The guy had an ear piece!!! What if Doug showed up and set up a laptop at the table when playing Daniel heads up? This shouldn't even need to be discussed. U can't even use in online poker. Griff needs to sue the casino and Tamayo. Zero tolerance, it's ruined poker. If this was going on and one is playing for casino money this would of been executed before it even started and likely handcuffed. Look at when Ivey didn't get his money from the casinos and he didn't do anything wrong. Give Griff the bracelet and 1st money: If poker wants to stop this shit, then use this as the example of what happens.
Great content, guys. If rules are openly ignored then you are heading for issues. Alan's comments re making tournaments more fun are spot on. Someone with buds, headphones missing what's going on, was that a raise? You would know if you didn't have the headphones on!
Daniel are you saying that at the MEFT there is only one floor man and he can't see what is going on ?? If so I think that's bs, Matt Savage is within sniffing distance of that table and the resposibility is his to shut that down. And you all know that every casino has the capacity to cover every thing that happens via the eye in the sky #cheatingisnotOK
Even if that is the case, if there’s only one foreman who fucking cares? The World Series of poker has 1 million cameras going at every angle and they can easily feed the information to the one floor man. Easy solution, case close. The World Series of poker just has to sack up and do it.
My thought is this. Tamayo has to technically be disqualified. He cannot claim he didnt know the rules, cuz in the beginning b4 hands were dealt there was a huge announcement. So, with that said, he knew, and his rail knew. HU doesnt change those rules! Sadly for Tamayo, tho. He needs to give it back.
Give it back? It’s a little late for that. This really falls on the WSOP staff and management. They should have stopped it with a warning and a DQ if it happened again.
I played two events and heard no announcements. I did register late for one event and arrived a lot late for another. I also did not read any signs regarding it. You can’t just make one announcement at the beginning and expect everyone to know. Perhaps telling people when they buy in would avoid any confusion. The wsop also dropped the ball on this and allowed it to happen at the final table heads up. That rests on the wsop not the players.
I think it would be interesting to have hold em tournaments with a rule difference that is announced at the last minute so that no one can study for it. Something like the Ace of Spades is removed from the deck . . . or straights beat flushes, etc. So no one will be heavily solver prepped.
Couldn’t someone use “google glasses” with these charts displayed onto the lens. Seems like there would be no need to have a laptop or cellphone just use the computer glasses, that someone else feeding the chats to the glasses via Bluetooth so the player wouldn’t have to move or physically type in information it can just be feed to the player. What are your thoughts?
Take your laptop to a blackjack table and see what happens. The edge will be about the same. See how long it takes for the casino to react. I would guess less than 5 seconds.
I would love to get on a pod and tell you about what the chess world does. They have these problems with charts being equivalent to opening theory and RTA basically being available on your phone
On a positive note; it's great to see this trio of OG's getting together and discussing it. Love Doug and Daniel together, as they compliment each other in a really nice way. And Alan just seems like a dude as good as dudes come.
I disagree with Daniel that players need to police of “rat out” players. That’s not my job, I don’t want to get beat up in the parking lot either. The dealer should be aware, then can a learn the floor.
I agree somewhat. I mean when there's a thousand players and hundreds of tables... it's hard to keep up with that stuff. When there's only a few tables left there's no reason the tables can't be watched... especially the FT.
Great cast and discussion! Talks like this help breed change on controversial topics such as WSOP FT. The underlying theme is the identification of a problem within the poker culture. Personally, I don’t use any technology to play poker. I read the nuances and tells whether playing in person or online. I play more online than in person because of hearing disabilities and still cash or win on a regular basis.
I am a recreational player for 25 years who has dreamed of playing in the main event. In the last few years I have gotten to the point in my life that I have to money to play in it if I chose to. I know it’s mostly pros and they help each other with solvers and discussions during breaks etc… but I will not play in a game that large where someone can slide to the rail between hands and get that much of an advantage over me. On a break and between hands is completely different. The dream is always that a rec or newbie player can come in, we all get the same starting stack and it’s they cards and our brains that make the decisions. As technology gets better and faster as it has with AI, I am sure what they did will be able to be done in seconds on a phone by next years event. If there is not some sort of clarification or rules to disallow this, even a rec player knows they stand no chance to go far. The dream of making it to the final table is over. Change the rules or loose all the fishes who are not made of money that still have the dream.
I see a lot of people talking about the use of solvers, but there's another issue I see few people talking about - ONE PLAYER TO A HAND. It's one of the cardinal rules and to have a pro team chiming in on the playing of a hand is a wild violation. A disqualification of Tamayo is probably too embarrassing for the WSOP after the fact so I doubt that will happen, but they need to amend the rules and ENFORCE THEM IN FUTURE.
I am googling real time assistance in poker and only a couple sites come up but it seems the general opinion is that it’s receiving help during an active cash or tournament game. Nothing specifically states “during an active hand” as Doug Polk keeps insisting. Does anyone have any better sources on RTA definition?
It looked dirty to me him going to a guy on a laptop between hands, it shouldn’t have been allowed. He had an unfair advantage, it’s one thing to talk to someone on the rail but it’s another thing to have a team with computers looking at ranges .
Simple answer is that many players play WSOP online poker at the tables. In the past those guys were supposedly only supposed to be allowed to play is their phone was visible to cameras and table.
I’ve always advocated for no pay bubble. Essentially start paying from the first person who’s knocked out and gradually increase the amounts. Early on it’ll be so negligible that nobody will even bother to cash out. Could be as little as one penny or one dollar depending on the size of the buyins. Imagine the amount of time this would save! Players could accumulate payout receipts or opt to donate their minuscule prize to charity. Any unclaimed money could be potentially put to work in an interest bearing account for the benefit of the venue until it’s claimed or build in rules that prize money must be claimed within a year or it’s forfeited.
You're limited by your location. They can have all the money in the world but if the infrastructure near them is not set up for higher speeds/fiber internet then they're just out of luck. Even if they get Starlink they're still limited by the area and if there are trees around it can block the satellite connection. Money doesn't fix everything if the ISP does not feel the need to build the infrastructure.
ban Daniel's late Reg's. Scott Siever sat down at my table 4 hours late in a $3,000 event. Started playing like a jerk and screwed up the entire table. first hand he check raised all the way to the river with a K 4 against a set of A's. Hit runner hearts to make a flush. Then donked the chips off to someone else. Totally screwed up the table. Daniel did the same thing last year to my table. Jumps in after the dinner break and donks out on a guy with A's that had been grinding for 6 or 7 hours. of course Daniel donked off his chips to someone else shifting chip stacks. That is simple not how the game should be managed. Eliminate selling pieces, or corporate buyins.
Tamayo probably did nothing wrong, but his coach did and WSOP are responsible for observing the rules in the room especially at the final table of their most important tournament
💯 or the WSOP is saying certain people are above the law. The last thing the WSOP or poker community needs is a USG investigation and having Ceasars gaming license restricted. The WSOP rules are not the only regulations.. there are state and federal regulations as well. Why didn’t the people filming and commentating say anything.. the players don’t want to police their opponents in those spots.. poker becomes full fledge war on the final table. You don’t need to add drama to the situation by being a tattle tell.. it’s the floors job! What happens typically in this situation is that when the commission is made aware of a federal regulation violation, the Enforcement Division (ED) comes in and carries out their decision. It’s a lengthy process and it’s on tax payers dollars. However, there is some background noise that occurs on this between the NGC, Ceasars, and WSOP.
Tamayo heard the same warning broadcasted EVERY FUCKING DAY OVER THE LOUD SPEAKER ABOUT NO ICMs, etc. He chose to ignore them and CHEAT!!!!!! His bracelet and 1st place winnings should go to Jordan Griff and Tamayo should be ban for life and investigated according to the Nevado Gaming Commissions rules on this. You three need to stop being PUSSIES on this topic and stick up for the good of the game: and that is to set a hard line on this topic or, as sure as the sun rises in the East and sets in the West, it will get worse.
The way to stop this from happening is to dig up the set from Mansion Poker's Poker Dome. I played in (and won) one of the first games played during their press conference, which was introduced the Dome to the world. They had a weekly televised game where winning players from around the world, playing on their online site, would be brought to the converted movie theater in the Neonopolis complex in downtown Las Vegas. The stage was set for live broadcasts of the games in front of a studio audience. Though the audience was shown the hole cards live, they could not relay information to the players. An electronic wall would go opaque, and a sound suppression system would keep the players from seeing or hearing the audience while a hand was in play. Players will still get the adrenalin rush of playing in front of an excited, shouting audience between hands.
This is a boring and ridiculous subject ! WSOP said it clearly, it was at their discretion. Besides he did not break the rules, his friends were viewing, and he is allowed to talk to his friends. Past hands are past hands. End of story.
Doug to avoid all the controversy why not include RTA optional &/or RTA ONLY events, w/simple strict time clock rules, Street Poker vs. Wizards type thing?
From a guy who’s been playing the WSOP since 2008 and made the final table in the 1.5k event in 2019 and played 4 events this year … first I miss the rio and WSOP has not been the same after Covid! And all the laptops everywhere definitely turned me off .. I’ll probably just come down for the cash games from now on … great podcast 👍
Id like to see some big pros, Negranu, Ivy, Helmuth. Publically refuse to take part in the main event next year if nothing is done about this. These guys have to lead by example to protect the integrity of the game.
While I would love to play wsop and have Daniel at my table, meet him, play etc.... everyone is different in their needs for concentration and Ive often realized why he is continuous talking and wondered what I would do. I am a person who needs quiet as I am sure others do- some may be ptsd, some may be adhd, some may be just introverts...everyone focuses differently and to talk non stop at tough decision points does impact the other person and is disrespectful to their process for their own advantage...for this reason, Ive often thought if I found myself in that position, I would then prepare to start wearing headphones as a barrier to prevent constant loud conversation from taking hold and from being a constant stressor to take me off my game....perhaps some instrumental, meditative music, perhaps Pachelbel's Canon in D or Tibetan singing bowls lol etc...would definitely need headphones in that instant as would anyone who has low tolerance to constant interruption, noise, chatter derailing focus. I feel decision makers need to take individual differences into account...without the barriers of headphones, glasses to create some barriers and distance with more intrusive loud or overbearing players...could be more angry situation ...lol just look at the video when phil Ivey was being questioned and his shirt touched, intentionally razed and bothered in a friendly way lol !
0:00 Intro
0:56 Daniel and Alan's summer
5:58 The RTA controversy, How big is the edge?
16:59 Where should the line be drawn?
25:31 How to enforce the rules?
40:48 Dominik's response
46:24 Opinion of the masses
51:01 Rule changes to make tournaments more fun
1:14:25 GGPoker, Game of Gold
1:21:14 Aftermath of the Main Event
1:28:08 Poker is in a good place
1:33:14 WSOP Winter
1:43:10 Outro
Thanks 💫☮️💫
When does the trash talking start? I dont like "nice Doug", if he's not calling the best poker player in the world a loser, then how do I know its really him? Maybe Daniel paid him off with a ton of new hair gel based on whale blubber to sweeten the pot.
All your content is great Doug!
You can have different levels of the rail too. The floor seats can't have electronics and the electronics must stay behind level 2 or level 3 so far in the back and not accessible by the players.
Tomorrow get Jack on here
If these scummy pros do this at the final table of the Main Event with most of the poker world watching, think of what they’re doing online where no one can see them.
That's why you dont play online
Eeeew! Their search histories would make Caligula blush.
That was my thought. They're basically telling me unless I cheat, I basically don't have a chance online. I could be Kasparov, but I'm playing against Big Blue, every hand, every session, every day. I DON'T understand why they keep saying you can't do stuff online. How can they possibly believe that it is controllable? "You know, some realization, at least, that this is wrong" - D. Negreanu while wearing a GG hat.
OMFG, Y E S 💯
Exactly why the moral high ground most of the poker community is taking is laughable.
Alan Keating always comes off as a really nice person. No personal attacks and is only interested in making the game more enjoyable.
Keating is the nicest guy in poker, no ifs ands or buts.
Would love to hang out with Alan
Galfond is the real poker ambassador-Keating too young for the title. Will need to see him more…
@@kineahora8736 and daniel is just in it for the money being an ambassador for GG is an embarrasment
@warrenbluffit2048 he was completely objective, and owned Polk in all the arguments. It's like murder, you still enforce. No it's like Jay walking 😂
@maxalburg5665 how many serial killers do you know to judge it by?
as a technology engineer I'm surprised nobody is talking about the fact that bluetooth headphones are allowed at the table. You can connect a set or airpods for instance to anything you want. I could easily connect my headphones to somebody elses phone or computer. I could put 1 headphone from my set and one from a partners set in a case and call them both my own. There are a lot of ways to cheat using these that I can think of in just 30 seconds of thinking about it. It would be very easy to feed real time information to somebody using the headphones. The laptop part of it. I get the argument on solvers and what not and agree it shouldn't be allowed but the headsets are where the real cheating can happen.
Yep it would be far too easy to cheat. Having instant information and partners that are tracking past players hands. Guys are wearing Bluetooth headphones that have microphones. It wouldn't look unusual at all for a player to talk out loud about whether to call an all-in.
Yup thought the same thing, they must be outlawed or WSOP is bullshit going forward
You could easily pass information to him through the bluetooth headphone, without saying a word. Copy and past to a text-to-speech engine
Dealers should be tasked with removing them. Sorry if you want your music or whatever but this is professional poker. Money is involved. Get used to the annoying chip flipping orrr don't play.
That's why he was so worried about hiding the ear peice. To me he showed his guilt rite there and then . If your not cheating why try and hide it.
This was the best poker pod I’ve ever watched. Can we get more of this trio?
Amazing to see Doug and Daniel just talk. Two very smart guys, I get why they often get into the trolling/drama but IMO this is so much better. Keating is just gold, clearly has well thought out opinions but open to duscussion and feedback.
The edge gained from using the solver between hands is not only limited to the cards. The fact that he's getting reassurance on his decisions and not muddying his mind from wondering if his decisions were correct or not can give a huge advantage.
So instead of players looking for tells, remembering what other players did previously. You can now have people on the sidelines remember for you. Lets also ignore the fact two of them have ear pieces to send info. Plus a labtop with a SOLVER.
the guy had an ear piece lol.
💯
@@Huyle18YES!
Great point!!!
Remember guys, poker is a team sport and is an open note test.
of course keating lives in a classy and beautiful wooden home that actually feels like a house.
HES DRUG DEALER, METH HOMIE
Trust fund baby
make sure to take a break from riding it before u pull something
Probably one of his many
funny how everybody thinks famous gamblers are super rich. Many of them are worth $10 million yesterday but today they're worth negative $5M. Many of them die homeless or in a rest home completely broke. It's not a lifestyle for everyone, you have to be mentally strong and very positive thinking all the time.
How about no coaching from the sidelines at all? How about the players have to just play poker themselves?
Oh u mean like it should be?
How about no coaching at all.
Collusion risk is through the roof.
Why are coaches also playing the same match as their “student”?
Seems ripe for collusion
Simple change: don't let players talk to their rails during tourny. All discussions must take place during breaks.
can u believe the guy had a fucking ear piece and DNegs is saying, oh well...
Dumb rule. Theres a big difference between talking strategy with your rail and actually having a laptop and looking at ranges and a solver. As Doug said the edge is probably quite slim and thats with a laptop. This is not really an edge problem, its a optics problem.
@@Jorbamma it’s an ethics problem
@@Kelgee3 the player didn't have an earpiece the guy on the rail did.
@@Stockhandle123 That was disproven there's photos of Tayo during the match and you can see his ear buds inside his hoodie.
lord keating, kid poker, and uncle doug.
No lord, uncle, or kid here
* supreme leader
The players should not be able to confer with anyone about play while Participating in the tournament.
exactly, thats insane. Considering all of the other nit picky rules
I agree while in play on breaks is fine
Nothing wrong with it, just not during the actual hand... Every other sport you can... They are turning a toothpick into a lumber yard with this... Its the problem with content creators now... Tamayo's friends were on solvers... Illegal? Maybe, gray area... Yes he was looking and asking, but it's hard to enforce... Imagine a fan putting a phone with a solver on it in Scott Seivers face and a picture comes out... Does he lose all 3 bracelets? Just No electronic devices at the table and you'll be fine... You really can't enforce the use of electronics away from the table... You just can't do it
Yea for sure. I get it would be difficult to manage at the beginning of the tourney with so many players, but at least towards the end they shouldn't allow it
It is quite literally impossible to enforce this. During a hand, absolutely, but once the hand is over players should be able to confer with who or whatever they want and there's no way to prevent it. You're saying players on break from a tourney can't text their buddy about some hands and get feedback?
What’s the point of having rules if they aren’t enforced. When it comes to cheating, the rules need to be changed from “could be disqualified,” to “will be disqualified.”
"could be" is so wishy washy. either it's against the rules or not.
Would help if they had actually put the rules in the rules document which they didn’t sad😮
@@darrylmeeking6839 It was announced over the PA before EVERY tournament that RTA is not allowed in the tournament area. I heard it myself when I played. Why it wasn't enforced on the biggest stage in poker is absurd
@@rmx.indiana8306 some poker players are excusing the nerds claiming that that announcement was too vague or only dive at the start of a tourney when not everyone was there 😂
I mean they come up with any excuse…
I reckon now that 80% are total cheats
@@Gos1234567Fact
No phones, no laptops, no rail. No outside help what so ever. Extreme rules however that shows who’s the best. That shows who came with most knowledge and when things aren’t going your way you have no one to help motivate you.
THATS DUMB HOMIE
😂
Sounds fair to me
How about no electronics at the rail?
No earbuds.
Yes use solvers, all you want, until you are at a table and playing poker.
All that knowledge should be held in your head as much as poss, and play your hand. Not let an app or program aid you.
Mobiles should not be at the table, and switched off. During the breaks, use your damn mobile.
Yeah 100%. I'm not as big of a fan of banning rails or anything like that because ultimately they have to treat the main event as a spectator sport and having people on the rail creates more excitement. But I'm 100% down with no electronics in the room. Put them through security scanners.
if they let Tamayo keep the money his banner should be just a photo of the laptop
"If" lol. If you think there's even a silver of a chance that the WSOP retroactively DQs Tamayo or strips the title, you need to check yourself into a mental institution because you are delusional.
There is zero chance they take the money or don't give him a banner.
100%
@@Kanders190 a spelled “sliver” wrong
@@shawnwilley3345 You didn't use punctuation to end your sentence nor did you capitalize the first word of your sentence. Lastly, 'A spelled "sliver" wrong" isn't a coherent sentence.
It's pretty dumb to be a grammar nazi anytime you see a typo, but if you're going to do it may I suggest not making more errors than the post you're calling out?
Maybe I'm wrong for thinking of it in this way, but if this was legal would anyone watch a final table where all the players are running to the rail to look at a computer in between hands to see what they should be doing?
Better way to think about it is, why would any non pro who doesn't have a solver crew ever play these tournaments. It's stupid, I hope no one plays next year, the WSOP corporation is filled with trash.
Yes I would be like racing teams 🤷♂️ it really doesn't do as much as u would think
@mewalrus well a non pro still won 6 million.
@@roccitysoundllc3404 That's what the steroid users in baseball were saying too. If it didn't do much, then why do it at all? If they want team poker, then create a separate event. I don't even think they should be able to look at the delayed stream to get info, much less do what they did here.
No outside help should be the rule until there’s a break only then you can consult your team notes
I disagree that the "edge" was too low. Not knowing what they were running, I will take a shot in the dark and say that their sim wasn't just situational GTO and tailored to Grif specifically. They might have had each hand and how he played from the final table input int here. Everything from the final 3 to the heads up match, I think this edge could have been much, much more tailored. With that information A.I. could even deviate from proper play based on the hands recorded in whatever size sample they were able to obtain.
Are those rooms just left off the casino's radar? As far as I know casino's are notorious for keeping track of people gambling, it's a casino lol. I think keeping a fair amount of surveillance wouldn't be out of their scope of ability like at all.
They were running a solver program called Monkersolver, which can easily be used for RTA in NL HU because the game trees aren't that large (less RAM used). They can just browse the presolved solutions in real-time.
@@konar01 another thing, why was that post win hug so AWKWARD? the hand off of something. People say headphones are allowed in play blah blah, thats fine, but their body language suggested they felt some sort of fear because something nefarious was in play.
@@theGiggityGiG-is2kx im glad i wasnt the only one to notice the really weird hug and awkwardness
Dom is very boisterous about what he did for Tamayo and is doubling down on it. Which is honestly dumb for someone as smart as he is.. he is admitting on his twitter posts to everything he did and using it to campaign his product for future final tables.. that’s not a good thing if he feels he is above the law.. he knew what he was doing, he just proceeded and said we will ask for forgiveness later.
The WSOP is still silent on this which is why people are losing faith in the integrity of the brand. Full transparency is needed. Why so much sweeping under the rug?
From a legal background the word “may” is where everything by went wrong.. the word should have been “shall” be disqualified
I wouldn’t be surprised to see some sort of gaming license probation or warning from the NGC. I mean look what happened to Scott Sibella the NGC doesn’t play games.
I’m dumb, who is this Dom??
@@rimkuspacDominik Nitsche
@@rimkuspac the guy who had the laptop running solvers for tamayo
yes strange wording from the wsop.
That guy's reasoning was utterly inf nt le, roughly, "My job is to make money." So is a drug dealer's, an assassin's, a slaver's, an arms dealer's, etc... It is an excuse that is even used all the way at the top by Warren Buffett, who has said, "That's not my job," when confronted about his companies' shortcomings to humanity.
The logic of most poker pros is shocking, in general They are about promoting the game of gambling to prospective "fish" as they openly call them amongst themselves and even openly in articles, then going out to find said "fish", and not "bleeding them dry too quickly". After their zero-sum daily routine, they have helped fund the casino that destroyed the community it was built in that assisted people in destroying their lives either in short swoops or in wasting away over the years in front if slot machines. Casinos offer... some jobs to the community? The same amount of jobs could have existed without them for any number of things.
And Las Vegas is humanity's ultimate disgrace. So why do I watch poker videos? The main event final table is interesting but maybe I'm wrong for watching even that.
Super simple... no tech in the poker room. there is precedence for this in the chess world where a computer can destroy a human player 99/100 times. all players basically go through TSA.
Yea, who the hell would play chess if your opponent is using his laptop to feed him moves
Very solid point. And Poker is arguably harder on the mind
Given the amount I've heard about the dislike of sunglasses and hoodies, how is this even a discussion??
How do you ban sunglasses when people wear regular glasses with tints or transitions, have someone using a photometer and measuring light transfer? Not to mention people could just wear big hats. Maybe naked poker is the answer.
What's wrong with hoodies and glasses, and what's been said about it?
@@MichaelBennett1 Pretty easily, the same way that MMA bans competitors from wearing glasses.
Nothing of substance, he’s just trying to make an irrelevant point
@@MichaelBennett1 maybe just ask them to provide certified vision condition, but how you standardise and implement this globally? fine line..
Wsop should not allow any electronic devices or going to the rail, when at final table.
Yep, much worse than the guys actually doing this was that they were allowed to.
I agree!
What about the guys he beat to get to the final table? I believe everyone he played against could file a class action lawsuit against hi, his team and the tournament hosts too.
What Tamayo and Nitsche have done, definitely cooled down my enthousiasm for playing poker. I didn't play since then and I'm still disappointed about them doing cheating stuff wide open in HU play of the WSOP ME. Even against an amateur, what makes it even worse for me.
My desire for playing the Main once is certainly less now at this point.
How can this Tamao guy look at himself in the mirror and be proud that he won....? He and these other two or three guys knew they were doing wrong, were pushing the boundaries as much as they could, and not caring what anyone thought. So blatant, so greedy. It's not the World Series of Cheating, the World Series of Coaching, or the World Series of Laptops. It's not 5 players per hand.....it is one player per hand. The earbud hiding and passing is another part of this. Someone at the final table should have said something. These guys should be disqualified and barred. Pathetic.
Cause he has 10 million reasons to look in the mirror
Agreed.
That's modern sport, you have to do everything in your power to gain the advantage. It's not cheating if you don't break any rules. Every sport has a degree of statistical analysis and every athlete can gain an advantage from getting the right information from it. If you are not actively looking for that advantage within the ruleset, then the only thing you're doing is putting yourself at a disadvantage.
This is why modern sport needs modern rules. You cannot rely on a rules set from the 1960's to have thought about artificial intelligence and how it can be utilised.
I got warned for taking fan pictures this guy had a full laptop 😂
The big 3 the poker community deserves!! Another great video and live Doug!!!
The truth is the solver usage technically fell in a 'grey area' and thus not really punishable. It is obvious Tamayo and his cronies knew this as they did nothing to hide their using their laptop. I may not like it, but the reality is that there is nothing that can be done other than eliminate the grey area for future tournaments.
The real issue I have is Tamayo using a hidden earbud , which was explicitly banned for the final table. It is obvious to everyone that He and his crew KNEW this was against the rules as the earbud was kept hidden under Tamayo's hoodie all the way through to the end when he was caught on camera taking it out and quickly giving it to his buddy. Why was he using the earbud when it was against the rules, and why is its use not being brought up more?
It's obvious that Tamayo's rail was using the laptop program to not only help Tamayo play his own hands better mathematically, they were also using it to statistically predict what cards Griff was holding based on his playing and betting patterns. The earbud would be absolutely necessary for them to secretly tell Tamayo when to push all-in or fold in real time, giving Tamayo a statistical edge over Griff every time.
This type of thing is actually covered by Nevada statutes. And those statutes were without a doubt broken. If lawsuits start to fly, Tamayo, his team, AND WSOP will be on the hook. I wouldn't be surprised if the Nevada gaming control board gets involved soon (or has already). Every other player at that final table has a very good case, if they choose to pursue it.
The earbud that fell off when he hugged his railed belonged to the person next to him. There’s another video from a different angle showing no earbud in Tamayos ear before hugging his tail.
If that’s true, that’s totally cheating
This is specifically banned in any online tournament, why tf would they allow it live in the main event.
Tayamo doesn't deserve the money
@@DDpokerrthere's also a whole stream where he wears his hoodie and zoomed in you can see one ear no pod, one ear has the white pod in... Then you see his rail and the guy has one white ear pod in..... Looks very very suspicious.
Perfect people to interview. Great content doug ❤
Listen, if the commission is going to stream and profit off of streaming a final table or event they should be able to have the necessary staff to police and protect the players. If there’s a rail being created, it should be monitored.
If you would want to remove bubble stalling, could they just not announce how many players are left? - assuming it's possible to say what the mode BB amount is without giving away the number of players.
I don’t think we know if he was using the solver in hand. If the earpiece was paired with that computer he could have been receiving queues during hands via the earpiece.
I think you go to chess rules. They are actively dealing with the same issues. Just remove electronics from the area and have greater separation between spectators and players.
Yeah have the poker players actually play poker
I'm all for charts and solvers. I think they can be great learning tools and contain a ton of info. They just should not ever be used at a table during play, by anyone at all. When you sit down at a poker table, you bring you. No charts, no solvers, no teams using solvers advising you. Just you. Fight fair, and fight clean at the poker table.
AWESOME, great chemistry between the three of you, more please!
With an earpod, the edge can be enormous. Determining ranges post flop on top of preflop, I don't wanna know what happened there...
I feel bad for the dude who came 2nd and found out what was happening. He should be proud of how he dealt with the situation. I would have caused chaos.
I have not played the main, but have thought about it for years, and there's no way on Earth I'd torch $10 grand by entering a tournament that allows this type of thing. No way. Zero electronics at the table or in the crowd, period.
How about we start here: You cannot be using a phone or laptop while seated at a table; and you must be seated to be in a hand. That was the rule when I started playing back in 2001; and that was before everyone had a smartphone.
The video of the winner handing off his ear bud to his buddy on the rail who handed it off to another looks wildly suspect. Wonder if he was being fed info even more real time. Having the ear piece shading look compounded with the laptop, seems there is more than meets the eye.
100% you don’t look shifty if you’re not doing something shifty
I've made drug buys from guys that didn't look half as conspicuous.
The earpod came from the fat bearded guy... not from the player. It was cut to make it looks suspicious... of which, it succeeded. The player wasn't wearing an earpod at the table. If you watch the PokerGo YT final table at 46:06-9 mark, he clearly does not have an airpod and the fat guy does.
@@fialee8 you could see it under the players hood
@@jyyyb That was in a prior session... not same time as the misleading video trying to imply that he had it on the last hand of the final table. You can believe what you want, but he clearly did not have any airpod on the final table final hand.
I was at a ft w Landon Tice and dude was on his phone every single second he was not in a hand .. extremely frustrating knowing what’s he’s doing on it and not being able to do anything about it
This is such a great conversation. Can't stop listening. I guess I have to wait until it's over.
No matter how small the advantage is that you get using solvers on the final table it´s still an advantage and it´s unfair using it against someone who isn´t. Maybe they should have cameras behind the rail so they can check ppl using RTA. Also on the final table or in general, there should be no covering up your ears with a hoodie so that there is no possibility of someone having an earpiece.
Not exactly Magic and Isiah Thomas, but it's good to see Daniel and Doug working together.
Three biggest names in poker at the moment, hell of a lineup, Doug 👍
@Doug Polk Poker What about installing a television in the rail like sportsbar vibe and have movie theatre rules essentially of no electronics along with the eye in the sky/in person security? Might be a stupid suggestion but I have never been there or played in it?
Poker is supposed to be a battle of wits. All preparation should be done before the tournament. Just like in chess. Could you imagine if in the world chess championship between moves each side had a laptop and had stockfish chess engine running and depending on what the opponent move was it would tell you what to move next! My god we have completely eliminated the point of the game, it’s a battle of wits between humans, not a battle of which computer/solver reigns supreme.
Good point
Controversial (sort of sarcastic) opinion follows: there is huge difference between poker and chess. I've never met anyone who studied chess to have profitable ev. Being a player of both for about 3 decades, chess players come to the game to test their strategies and brain in a game that was played by the "wise". Poker players come to the table to make money. Any way they can. In a game that was played by outlaws and cheats.
@@FriendsForFriends666 Wait what? So poker players aren't trying to test their strategies and brain? And since it's all about money you should expect and allow cheating? There are some differences of course but heads-up poker and chess are both games of strategy and skill and should be played mano-a-mano without external aid. End of story.
@@jiib321 yes, they are supposed to test their strategies. For being profitable. And if the most profitable decision is to get a laptop with rta on it and dom helping you every hand from the rail you do that and win and people complain but you got the bag. I haven't seen that mentality in chess.
@@FriendsForFriends666 that mentality has been used in chess and they were called out as cheaters. When the game starts it’s supposed to be between humans, no computer engines/solvers. The difference between poker/chess is that everyone in chess already understands and knows this to be cheating, but in poker apparently not.
Great conversation guys! Really enjoyed all of you guys together!
A newbie poker player could come in using a solver which negates my years of experience. I don't need a solver, it's in my head so it's not fair for anyone, experienced or not, to use a solver! Any kind advantage other that the advantage that comes with experience should be banned at the table!👍😎✌🗽
Doug I really enjoyed your podcast. Your questions were right on target! The comments were lighthearted but very accurate. I hope the tournament directors watch your podcasts and make the significant changes. If they don’t I fear the situations will become more brazen. And the results will no be good for the game! Mike
my take is WSOP is at fault here for not clearly enforcing the rules, it was the final table you don’t need to call out the floor to check if someone was cheating. Wsop has only one table to monitor out of hundreds before so thats grave negligence on their part
The floors are clueless . You get 4 different rulings from 4 different floors in 4 different exact situations.
Alan K, Vanessa S, and Daniel N - thank you for this discussion
If they do it so blatantly do it on the biggest/most watched live poker event, how do you honestly expect them not to use it from the comfort of their own homes online?
💯!!!
Watched Daniel for years. Have his books and play holdem every week. Old retired nurse lady beating thr boys now woowho! Great vid thanks. Will keep Learning.
Heads up displays were banned from online poker and there isnt any difference in it from what happened. Hes disqualified and everyone bumps up a pay jump, no champion, until the other 8 come back and diluke it out for the bracelet.
What a scumbag thing to do.
The problem is nothing was enforced and no one said anything about it during the tournament, so the result will stand. They’ll have to make changes for next year’s tournament.
Pretty sure HUDs aren't banned on most sites
It's a matter of table etiquette as well, in the honourable/sporting sort of way. Like Dan said, studying is well and good, but that's not what we're doing. It's like taking a crib sheet into a final exam, you're not just invalidating the work other people have put in (low magnitude notwithstanding), but more importantly it defeats the purpose of the exercise. We're not competing to see who can work a solver best, but who can play best in the moment.
I had to give up my cellphone when playing at a featured table in Liechtenstein. They collected it and put it in a box.
You spoke about the players policing themselves. If you hang large signs describing the rule, this empowers players to confront rule-breakers and call for floor managers if needed.
If the advantage is minimal, then why the hell did Doug study solvers for months before playing Daniel heads up? I call BS. It was straight up cheating. The guy had an ear piece!!! What if Doug showed up and set up a laptop at the table when playing Daniel heads up? This shouldn't even need to be discussed. U can't even use in online poker. Griff needs to sue the casino and Tamayo. Zero tolerance, it's ruined poker. If this was going on and one is playing for casino money this would of been executed before it even started and likely handcuffed. Look at when Ivey didn't get his money from the casinos and he didn't do anything wrong. Give Griff the bracelet and 1st money: If poker wants to stop this shit, then use this as the example of what happens.
Great content, guys. If rules are openly ignored then you are heading for issues. Alan's comments re making tournaments more fun are spot on. Someone with buds, headphones missing what's going on, was that a raise? You would know if you didn't have the headphones on!
Daniel are you saying that at the MEFT there is only one floor man and he can't see what is going on ?? If so I think that's bs, Matt Savage is within sniffing distance of that table and the resposibility is his to shut that down. And you all know that every casino has the capacity to cover every thing that happens via the eye in the sky #cheatingisnotOK
Even if that is the case, if there’s only one foreman who fucking cares? The World Series of poker has 1 million cameras going at every angle and they can easily feed the information to the one floor man. Easy solution, case close. The World Series of poker just has to sack up and do it.
Savage hasn't worked the WSOP since 04. You're thinking of Jack Effel.
I havent watched poker content in a while, but Doug and Dneg doing a stream together??? Seems like an alternative universe
My thought is this. Tamayo has to technically be disqualified. He cannot claim he didnt know the rules, cuz in the beginning b4 hands were dealt there was a huge announcement. So, with that said, he knew, and his rail knew. HU doesnt change those rules! Sadly for Tamayo, tho. He needs to give it back.
Give it back? It’s a little late for that. This really falls on the WSOP staff and management. They should have stopped it with a warning and a DQ if it happened again.
OUR AN IDIOT HOMIE HE DID NOTHING WRONG
Nothing will happen. Next year, they will enforce it.
Don't agree. He already won, the edge is too low. In my opinion they have to change it for the next WSOP
I played two events and heard no announcements. I did register late for one event and arrived a lot late for another. I also did not read any signs regarding it. You can’t just make one announcement at the beginning and expect everyone to know. Perhaps telling people when they buy in would avoid any confusion. The wsop also dropped the ball on this and allowed it to happen at the final table heads up. That rests on the wsop not the players.
I think it would be interesting to have hold em tournaments with a rule difference that is announced at the last minute so that no one can study for it. Something like the Ace of Spades is removed from the deck . . . or straights beat flushes, etc. So no one will be heavily solver prepped.
I like it
Couldn’t someone use “google glasses” with these charts displayed onto the lens. Seems like there would be no need to have a laptop or cellphone just use the computer glasses, that someone else feeding the chats to the glasses via Bluetooth so the player wouldn’t have to move or physically type in information it can just be feed to the player.
What are your thoughts?
Love the commentary can’t wait for Daniel to become a analyst
Take your laptop to a blackjack table and see what happens. The edge will be about the same. See how long it takes for the casino to react. I would guess less than 5 seconds.
Thats new technology of counting cards in a multiple deck shoe.
I dont think any pit- boss is voing go for that either.
No phones at BJ period
What if on headphones. They have the charts or strategies in their ear?
I don't play poker, but as a gambler in general, I think that any electronic device should not be permitted to enhance anyone's game. just my view.
I would love to get on a pod and tell you about what the chess world does. They have these problems with charts being equivalent to opening theory and RTA basically being available on your phone
I'm still hyped that Polk and Negreanu are total bros now.
this was enjoyable to watch. good conversation you put together here, Doug!
Doug we need that bracelet from 2016 confiscated
On a positive note; it's great to see this trio of OG's getting together and discussing it.
Love Doug and Daniel together, as they compliment each other in a really nice way. And Alan just seems like a dude as good as dudes come.
I disagree with Daniel that players need to police of “rat out” players. That’s not my job, I don’t want to get beat up in the parking lot either. The dealer should be aware, then can a learn the floor.
Spot-on!
I agree somewhat. I mean when there's a thousand players and hundreds of tables... it's hard to keep up with that stuff. When there's only a few tables left there's no reason the tables can't be watched... especially the FT.
@@dawnkeener9836 1 dealer can see all 9 players at each table. It is the dealers job to protect the game.
Great cast and discussion! Talks like this help breed change on controversial topics such as WSOP FT. The underlying theme is the identification of a problem within the poker culture. Personally, I don’t use any technology to play poker. I read the nuances and tells whether playing in person or online. I play more online than in person because of hearing disabilities and still cash or win on a regular basis.
Doug I think you can afford a generator buddy
Balllllinnnnnnn 💯💯💯🤣
I am a recreational player for 25 years who has dreamed of playing in the main event. In the last few years I have gotten to the point in my life that I have to money to play in it if I chose to. I know it’s mostly pros and they help each other with solvers and discussions during breaks etc… but I will not play in a game that large where someone can slide to the rail between hands and get that much of an advantage over me. On a break and between hands is completely different. The dream is always that a rec or newbie player can come in, we all get the same starting stack and it’s they cards and our brains that make the decisions. As technology gets better and faster as it has with AI, I am sure what they did will be able to be done in seconds on a phone by next years event. If there is not some sort of clarification or rules to disallow this, even a rec player knows they stand no chance to go far. The dream of making it to the final table is over. Change the rules or loose all the fishes who are not made of money that still have the dream.
I see a lot of people talking about the use of solvers, but there's another issue I see few people talking about - ONE PLAYER TO A HAND. It's one of the cardinal rules and to have a pro team chiming in on the playing of a hand is a wild violation. A disqualification of Tamayo is probably too embarrassing for the WSOP after the fact so I doubt that will happen, but they need to amend the rules and ENFORCE THEM IN FUTURE.
I am googling real time assistance in poker and only a couple sites come up but it seems the general opinion is that it’s receiving help during an active cash or tournament game. Nothing specifically states “during an active hand” as Doug Polk keeps insisting.
Does anyone have any better sources on RTA definition?
It looked dirty to me him going to a guy on a laptop between hands, it shouldn’t have been allowed. He had an unfair advantage, it’s one thing to talk to someone on the rail but it’s another thing to have a team with computers looking at ranges .
Wow way to state the blatantly obvious there Princess
good advice never to muck your hand until the dealer pushes you the pot.
Never understood why they allow phones at the tables. The potential for cheating is simply too strong. Who needs a phone when they are playing poker?
Simple answer is that many players play WSOP online poker at the tables. In the past those guys were supposedly only supposed to be allowed to play is their phone was visible to cameras and table.
I’ve always advocated for no pay bubble. Essentially start paying from the first person who’s knocked out and gradually increase the amounts. Early on it’ll be so negligible that nobody will even bother to cash out. Could be as little as one penny or one dollar depending on the size of the buyins.
Imagine the amount of time this would save!
Players could accumulate payout receipts or opt to donate their minuscule prize to charity. Any unclaimed money could be potentially put to work in an interest bearing account for the benefit of the venue until it’s claimed or build in rules that prize money must be claimed within a year or it’s forfeited.
And, make players stay at the table and maybe get rid of the huge grandstand rail.
This
Breaks are breaks but clear the fucking rail. No interactions during play
At one time in the not so distant past was there not a rule about no electronic devices? When did that rule get vetoed?
it buggles my mind how ultra millionairs struggles to have a decent internet connection
It just depends on the service and area your in and not your pocketbook.
You're limited by your location. They can have all the money in the world but if the infrastructure near them is not set up for higher speeds/fiber internet then they're just out of luck. Even if they get Starlink they're still limited by the area and if there are trees around it can block the satellite connection. Money doesn't fix everything if the ISP does not feel the need to build the infrastructure.
Calm down
@@yunggoosbumps215 ok im sorry i apologize for what i said, i didnt mean it in mean way, im sorry for this if that is how it felt presented sorry
@@ash80510 im calm i did not mean to seem angry im sorry i apologize about it
Whatever happened to the One player per hand rule?
Tamayo should have to give up the bracelet to Griff and the 1st place money.
Tamayo should give the bracelet to griff and the $10 million to you & I. this is a much better idea, broski🤝
ban Daniel's late Reg's. Scott Siever sat down at my table 4 hours late in a $3,000 event. Started playing like a jerk and screwed up the entire table. first hand he check raised all the way to the river with a K 4 against a set of A's. Hit runner hearts to make a flush. Then donked the chips off to someone else. Totally screwed up the table. Daniel did the same thing last year to my table. Jumps in after the dinner break and donks out on a guy with A's that had been grinding for 6 or 7 hours. of course Daniel donked off his chips to someone else shifting chip stacks. That is simple not how the game should be managed. Eliminate selling pieces, or corporate buyins.
Tamayo probably did nothing wrong, but his coach did and WSOP are responsible for observing the rules in the room especially at the final table of their most important tournament
He absolutely did if he was part of it (which he was).
💯 or the WSOP is saying certain people are above the law. The last thing the WSOP or poker community needs is a USG investigation and having Ceasars gaming license restricted. The WSOP rules are not the only regulations.. there are state and federal regulations as well. Why didn’t the people filming and commentating say anything.. the players don’t want to police their opponents in those spots.. poker becomes full fledge war on the final table. You don’t need to add drama to the situation by being a tattle tell.. it’s the floors job! What happens typically in this situation is that when the commission is made aware of a federal regulation violation, the Enforcement Division (ED) comes in and carries out their decision. It’s a lengthy process and it’s on tax payers dollars. However, there is some background noise that occurs on this between the NGC, Ceasars, and WSOP.
Yes he did
Tamayo heard the same warning broadcasted EVERY FUCKING DAY OVER THE LOUD SPEAKER ABOUT NO ICMs, etc. He chose to ignore them and CHEAT!!!!!! His bracelet and 1st place winnings should go to Jordan Griff and Tamayo should be ban for life and investigated according to the Nevado Gaming Commissions rules on this. You three need to stop being PUSSIES on this topic and stick up for the good of the game: and that is to set a hard line on this topic or, as sure as the sun rises in the East and sets in the West, it will get worse.
R u high??? He used an airpod to get help during hands...lol
The way to stop this from happening is to dig up the set from Mansion Poker's Poker Dome. I played in (and won) one of the first games played during their press conference, which was introduced the Dome to the world. They had a weekly televised game where winning players from around the world, playing on their online site, would be brought to the converted movie theater in the Neonopolis complex in downtown Las Vegas. The stage was set for live broadcasts of the games in front of a studio audience. Though the audience was shown the hole cards live, they could not relay information to the players. An electronic wall would go opaque, and a sound suppression system would keep the players from seeing or hearing the audience while a hand was in play. Players will still get the adrenalin rush of playing in front of an excited, shouting audience between hands.
This is a boring and ridiculous subject ! WSOP said it clearly, it was at their discretion.
Besides he did not break the rules, his friends were viewing, and he is allowed to talk to his friends.
Past hands are past hands.
End of story.
Past hands are past hands, you're right. That's why the conversation is about whether the rules should be changed for future hands.
Doug to avoid all the controversy why not include RTA optional &/or RTA ONLY events, w/simple strict time clock rules, Street Poker vs. Wizards type thing?
This was great! Three of the best poker ambassadors, for sure! I actually watched it’s entirety! Sped,up of course! 😆
Interesting convo, but simple solution. Make it clear. Use tech. You're out. Simple.
From a guy who’s been playing the WSOP since 2008 and made the final table in the 1.5k event in 2019 and played 4 events this year … first I miss the rio and WSOP has not been the same after Covid! And all the laptops everywhere definitely turned me off .. I’ll probably just come down for the cash games from now on … great podcast 👍
Id like to see some big pros, Negranu, Ivy, Helmuth. Publically refuse to take part in the main event next year if nothing is done about this. These guys have to lead by example to protect the integrity of the game.
While I would love to play wsop and have Daniel at my table, meet him, play etc.... everyone is different in their needs for concentration and Ive often realized why he is continuous talking and wondered what I would do. I am a person who needs quiet as I am sure others do- some may be ptsd, some may be adhd, some may be just introverts...everyone focuses differently and to talk non stop at tough decision points does impact the other person and is disrespectful to their process for their own advantage...for this reason, Ive often thought if I found myself in that position, I would then prepare to start wearing headphones as a barrier to prevent constant loud conversation from taking hold and from being a constant stressor to take me off my game....perhaps some instrumental, meditative music, perhaps Pachelbel's Canon in D or Tibetan singing bowls lol etc...would definitely need headphones in that instant as would anyone who has low tolerance to constant interruption, noise, chatter derailing focus. I feel decision makers need to take individual differences into account...without the barriers of headphones, glasses to create some barriers and distance with more intrusive loud or overbearing players...could be more angry situation ...lol just look at the video when phil Ivey was being questioned and his shirt touched, intentionally razed and bothered in a friendly way lol !
What a great conversation. Three very well-spoken people having a coherent discussion. Rare these days.
What about recording opening ranges and bet sizes and plugging them into the solver to better understand the opponents strategy? Is that a thing here?
Alan is a poker purist. I, and many others, really appreciate that. I miss the poker from 30 years ago.