The guy said cooper kupp is a HOF if he retired right now and was shaming micheal Thomas. Dude is an idiot and clearly racially motivated. He shits on Lamar, Kyler, Serena and MT. Yet he loves kupp, graf and Martina. Lol
Totally agree. Mad Dog is a walking encyclopedia and knows his stuff. Steffie Graff was no joke in her era and well as Martina but I would have love to see Serena go against them. I think she would have a chance to take some wins. They are all great but we will never know who is the goat IMHO
And that's why debating athletes from different eras is really stupid. Most sports are played very differently nowadays due to the rule changes, equipment etc. There's too many variables, with no common point of reference and it ultimately becomes a case of comparing apples and oranges. Just appreciate the athletes who are playing today and stop comparing them to dudes who played some 20,30,40 years back.
This was one of the better debates I've seen on this show. No yelling, no insulting, both sides respecting each others opinions and providing counter arguments
Graf won more and was more dominant and played for less time. She also had a year with all four majors+gold medal. She has everything on Serena but the one grand slam. If u want to say that’s the difference then Margaret court is the goat
- Steffi won the Golden Calendar Slam (only player in history) - Steffi has 377 weeks at #1 (all time record) - Steffi has 8 YE #1 (all time record) - Steffi won all of the Slams at least 4 times (only player in history) - Steffi won at least 6 Slams on all surfaces (only player in history) - Steffi won way more titles than Serena - Steffi has a higher winning % than Serena - Steffi was both more dominant and more consistent than Serena - Steffi had a higher peak than Serena - Steffi had better competition than Serena - Steffi accomplished more than Serena despite playing for 11 less years It’s no contest, Graf is the GOAT.
This man just said Venus Williams isn't a top 10 player of all time lmao! 🙄 you do realize if serens Williams doesn't exist Venus Williams would have at least 4 more grand slams wins?
Also Serena is the highest earner & Venus is the second highest earner in the history of women's tennis. Venus' bank account is definitely top 2 of all time
For me being a black kid watching sports Venus & Serena made me wanna watch tennis men or women if it wasn’t for them I wouldn’t have given tennis a second thought & to see what they had to overcome being black women in a pro dominantly white sport was nothing short of magnificent. For me SERENA is the greatest tennis player I’ve ever seen!!!
Great comment, nice to see she had such a great influence on your life. And for that I think she not only best female, but best all time. First tennis player that comes to mind is her, and will always be her
I've become a Serena AND Venus fan. What they have done is something that can't be quantified. She's inspired others to follow her footsteps. When she is on TV I look to watch her and Venus. When I think of tennis, I think of Serena and then Venus
I like how Mad Dog was in this argument because even though he doesn't think Serena is the GOAT, he doesn't think that it's crazy for other people to put her there. He just prefers the others more which I can respect. If this was about LeBron or another sport, he would think they were crazy.
@@sukhrajsinghnahal I mean they do. sports and humans evolve to say somebody in the 60's is better in sorts then somebody modern day is crazy. But let's use your debate say a regular doctor who has to study everything about the human body would they know more about the brain then a brain surgeon
@@shawnsmith9307 the debate isn't really about who's "better," it's about who's "greater." Max brings this up a lot, but for example plenty of sprinters can run faster than Jesse Owens now, they're "better," but they're most certainly not "greater."
@@back2back379 yeah he is greater because the impact he he had especially around that time and he also set a precedent so yeah I get that. Russo just doesn't argue that, he literally think they are better
I don't think so, his argument was that Serena wouldn't have won as much if she was playing with them but doesn't bring up that they for sure wouldn't have won that many if they had to go up against either of the Williams sister defiantly serena
He needs someone with the knowledge of tennis to counter him. The depth in women's tennis over the past two decades is unparalleled historically. Those previous all-time greats didn't generally have to play tough early round matches. There were only ever a handful of players who could win a major. Whereas, during Serena's era there were always dozens of players capable of knocking out the top players. And the late 90s early 2000s period was a murderer's row of players like Hingis, Davenport, Seles, the Belgians, Sharapova and the Russians, etc. Then she had to face down multiple new generations.
@@VictorVonDoom. The women's game hasn't been poor. It has been characterized by parity. The overall athleticism and skill on tour is far beyond what existed prior to the sisters. Dominating is exceedingly difficult.
@@hiwayman981 I believe Mary Carrillo called it Big Babe tennis. I will always remember the 2005 Wimbledon semi-final between Venus and Sharapova. The incredible ball striking in that match really made me aware the sport had become something completely different.
and that is the most venerable and valid argument that completely obliterates mad dog’s attempt to devalue serena. even the player that he picked, martina navratilova concedes that serena is the best tennis player all time in her own comments and she was a skeptic early of serena.
Exactly. Monica Seles was spanking Graff before the stabbing, and she is not on Serena's level. Serena would have blown threw them. She would have given them the Sharapova treatment (approximately).
I feel like when we call Jordan, Tiger or Tom the greatest of all time in their respective sports, we refer to a lot of the circumstances they faced to rise up to the challenges of their times, or the off-field/course/court ripples they created. While Graf and Navratilova were fantastic tennis players, we wouldn't even be talking about women's tennis today without Serena and Venus' impact off the tennis court. The part that I think Mad Dog gets too caught up in is being politically neutral, by refering to on-court/field issues only; however, the reason he loves Cousy and Jordan and Co is that they created so many avenues for their future successors. They forged a path (eg. Working with a black man in Bill Russell as his leader to win some 750 titles, or creating a shoe line that allows ordinary folk to connect with NBA players in style) that others can admire or walk on, and that's precisely what Serena's done.
Agree with both Williams sister's trailblazing off-court, but especially Serena given her magnanimous career. Lest we forget however another GOAT-contender, Billie Jean King's contributions in that area as well; her application of Title IX into (womens') sports, the formation of the WTA, and WTT, just to name a few. And what Navratilova did during her early career, defecting from an eastern-bloc country at a time in which doing so may well have gotten her assassinated by her own government, cannot be overlooked or slighted in light of the more recent accomplishments of the aforementioned American siblings. As well, Martina became a pioneer for modern women's tennis ala Ivan Lendl; her diet, workout/cross-training regimen, and preternatural skill with the tennis racquet asked questions of her opponents in the 1980's that hadn't been posed before in the sport. Some of her achievements, stats, and titles remain peerless to this day; as such, she's definitely my GOAT pick, as much as she is Mad Dog's, seemingly anyway.
@Joseph fair enough. All one can indulge in is relative comparisons between athletes and eras, and I'd say the impact Serena, specifically had, was comparable to say Bird, Magic, Bonds or Jordan. Had a lot to do with reviving audience interest in the sport. Again, fair point.
Jordan and Tiger are debatable! There was Russell, KAJ, Chamberlain, Magic and the Golden Bear who is arguably the greatest golfer ever! What isn't debatable in G.O.A.T. status is Tom Brady! Full stop!
@Heg Dog Brady is the greatest & most accomplished N.F.L. player all time! So if you're starting a team you're going to select a LB over the most important position on the field?😂🤔 Come on man!
I feel you, wish they would more. But it’s typically when Tiger (golf) or Serena (Tennis) is in the news that they discuss it. Or if there is a controversy (i.e the liv situation)
Yup!! Did you see Kyrigos take out Medvedev.. He made that Wimbledon final statement. The only thing upsetting was Alcaraz losing in the first round. Fake # 2 seed.
See kids ? " That's a fair point" " Reasonable" That's how you have a good debate It's ok to have a different opinion about an specific topic And when both sides show some sort of respect and it is even better It was a good segment
You can’t take away majors from Serena by putting her in an era with the other two greatest and then not take away any from them. There’s not unlimited majors to win so clearly if all 3 played in the same era, all 3 would have lost numbers in their total majors
Graf won 22/54 bruh that's the highest win conversion rate ever in women's tennis. The next best is 11-1 by some dude from the black and white era. Not to mention she retired at 30. She's like jordan
@@colinforsecs3393 doubles doesn't count in the goat argument brother . Your partner is doing half the work it's an entirely different discussion . You can argue she's the doubles goat but graf is the singles goat.
He brings up the caliber of competition over her career but whose fault is it that the other players that were in the same single-digit slam counts earlier in her career decided to call it quits? Not hers. She maintained a quality of play over an extended period of time in tandem with an ever-growing pool of talent.
It's FUNNY how people of RUSSO'S ILK when it comes to people of Color they always have to move the goalpost to justify People of Color aren't greater than they're great white hope. BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUT when it comes to BASEBALL you don't hear One Anglo Saxon Talking Head like RUSSO admit or say well BABE RUTH ONLY PLAYED AGAINST WHITE PLUMBERS, MECHANICS, POSTMEN, BUS DRIVERS ETC. BABE RUTH did not play against the BEST BASEBALL PLAYERS of his ERA because the BEST PLAYERS were banned due to america's RACIST HISTORY and those players were BLACK! So miss me with the she didn't play against greater competition than Martina or Graf...
Look at men’s tennis where you have essentially three all-timers who, despite their competition, were each able to amass 20 Grand Slams. In women’s tennis, no one comes close to Serena, yet in the 80s, there were players who were at least close to Martina and yet she still amassed so many Grand Slams.
Both side have their arguments, but to downgrade Serena lack of competitions, I have to disagree. Below is a list of players that Serena need to go thru to win grand slams. Hingis Davenport Venus Kim C Justin Jennifer C Sharvspova Kerber Mausemo Vika These players are all multiple grand slams winners and reach the number 1 ranking.
@@leepatrick9432 I agree, I personally think that the Williams father destroyed Venus career, she was an excellent player, and I saw her not playing her best on purpose when facing Serena at some point.
On that list, Steffi Graf had to play against 5 of them, she has a winning record against them and beat them all in grand slams. I am talking about Hingis, Davenport, Venus, Kim Clijters and Capriati
Genuine question, what did Serena do for the culture of tennis? If we are talking about her race, Arthur Ashe and Althea Gibson were far more impactful. If we are talking about the power game, Chris everet, Graf, and seles were the trailblazers.
@@dustierbottoms just because Ashe et al did great things prior doesn't diminish her impact now. She opened doors for women making real money in sport and is a beacon of excellence for her race and others.
@@dustierbottoms no Naomi Osaka, No Stevens, no Coco Gauff and other like them without Serena and Venus. Serena offered viability to the sport for a current pool of girls who wouldn't have tried it otherwise. Cannot underestimate that part. She's in the bracket of Gibson on the women's side in that respect.
@@droid1appmkr Serena has said her biggest inspiration growing up was Monica seles. She wanted to hit like Monica. While it’s great to be have a role model of the same race, I highly doubt there would be no black tennis players ever had the Williams never existed. That seems like a stretch. Who was tiger woods role model? As far as being a beacon of excellence, I actually think as great as she was, she underachieved. And she had so many problems with poor sportsmanship throughout her career.
I think you can make a case for either one of them. Steffi was more versatile and more dominant during her peak. Serena was a revolutionary power player who stayed at the top of her game for the better part of her 20+ year career. They were both really good doubles players-I’d have to give the edge to Serena here, though. If there’s an asterisk on Steffi’s career it’s the fact that Seles, her biggest rival, had her career shanked by that insane fan who, y’know, shanked her. I feel like Martina needs to be in the mix her, too, although I’d have to put her behind Steffi & Serena. Martina’s definitely the greatest mixed doubles player of all-time…
Mad Dog's been getting a lot of hate lately, but I honestly love listening to him talk about the history of just about every sport. He may get some takes wrong, but in this debate he destroyed J Will.
He made the argument most people use to not rank Floyd Mayweather as the best of all time. Mayweather didn't beat the best of his era until they were out of their primes. I don't know. These Best of all-time debates are all boring. We can never know the right answers. The sports change, technology changes, and the physical ability of athletes change.
Court won 21 grand slams by age 28, 24 by 31. It must be said that the debaters' comment are disingenuous and have no credibility whatsover to not even mention Margaret Court who won 11 of her 24 grand slams in the 'open' era (from 1968), proving that she was superior over 'professionals' as well in her efforts. She also won 9 of her 19 doubles slams in the open era. Furthermore, she won 3 grand slam singles after her first child whereas Williams won one which has some significance in terms of mental acumen. Very significantly, Williams had 10 more pro years than Court, or perhaps likely reduce that to 7 or 8 years being that Williams turned pro at 14 (Court 17 or 18) and one generally wouldn't expect a person to win a slam before they were about 16 or 17 going by the example of Hingis who won at 16. Court is clearly the greatest player of all time due to the weight of the all conquering grand slams yet Williams would have been the equal greatest and the greatest of all time if respectively she had equaled and out-'slammed' Court. There's zero difference that Court won 13 of her 24 slams in the pre-open era because the 'professionals' sought 'pro' money of their own volition and by their own decision declined playing the slams so it's on them. It doesn't mean they were better than Court, but that they just wanted to earn more money.
Clijsters and Henin retired in their mid 20s because they knew there was no point carrying on with Serena around. Sharapova continued but was driven to PEDs to try to overcome Serena and still couldn't. Navratilova won 9 wimbledons in a time where the other players were completely substandard on grass. Serena would have won 15 wimbledons against the likes of Chris Evert.
Clijsters retired to start a family and Henin retired due to burnout. Their decisions had nothing to do with Serena. Navratilova won Wimbledon by beating the likes of Goolagong, Evert, Seles and Graf multiple times, a level of competition Serena has never had to face. Graf is the GOAT.
making an argument about a modern player being sent back is really dumb. equipment, technology, training, even the mental makeup of the game has changed significantly since that time. I can tell you right now, Serena's game would not translate well to 80s style tennis.
@@PravoslavniVitez Serena beat Steffi in the final at Indian Wells when she was just 17 and before you say Steffi was past it by then she won the French that year! Serena is the GOAT, if it wasn't for illness, injury bad officials she'd have won 30 minimum. Sharapova was as good as any of the players of the Navratilova era. She'd have won 10 or 12 slams in the 80s or 90s. Wozniacki was very similar in style and quality to Evert but couldn't live with Serena. Just ask Martina or Evert who is the GOAT!
As a young black girl watching Serena, Venus, Martina H, and Graff-Graff was the more experienced player and more agile of all of them. The Williams sisters' possessed power I've never seen from women players before. But there was always SOMETHING about Martina H that left me intrigued with the talent she brought to the game. She's always been in my favorite personal top 10 players.
Graff won the calendar grand slam in 1988 and went 3/4 grand slams in a year FOUR other times. All while beating future hall of famers in ten less years than Serena has needed to rack up her grand slams.
Margaret Court is the best player of all time. With a record 24 Grand Slam singles titles, it's hard to argue. Add in her 19 doubles and 19 mixed doubles titles and Court has a record 62 Major titles to her credit.
@@oscarthomasfifa4871 Exactly she had 22 slams at age 30 when she retired compared to Serena’s 13 at the same age. Also won CYGS and Olympic Gold in same year and has 4 slams at each one which Serena can’t say. It’s just moronic honestly
@@lyndonchastain3181 yeah but her main competitor monica seles got stabbed in her prime. Imagine if someone stabbed nadal in his prime , Federer would have more majors
@@derekkeane5152 Name me one competitor of Serena that was on the Level of seles graf or navratilova. Serena would have less than 10 grand slams if she would have played in that era
Even though Mad Dog has silly arguments with basketball players in the past, he definitely earns respect in taking history into consideration. The guy is like a Maester in GoT, he knows history quite well.
Silly Argument That a Pep talk when you use that word to Describe What discussion hes improvise and when he bring up basketball player In the Past and earn to be heard Is part of being Historian Bro regardless what he does.
No he was right!!! Martina Hingis beat Serena Willams multiple times and there is no way she would have lost 15 times straight to her. If Martina Hingis dint get BAN for cocaine she would have 23 Grand Slams also.
Exactly. If you beat the #2 player 19 times in a row, and that player was dominating everybody else for a stretch, then that speaks to how dominant the #1 was.
@@DaggerMan11 that would be true, but no one has ever put Sharapova anywhere near the top of tennis conversation. She’s never even been a HM to the top 10 discussion. So his point is, which historically great player can you use to measure Serena against? Not saying he’s right, but that’s his point.
@@Thomas_Erickson Eh, she definitely belongs in an Honorable Mention to the top 10 discussion. There's really not much separating Sharapova's career from the Henin/Venus/Goolagong tier. And if she had more success against Serena she'd be firmly within that tier. But also, the depth on the WTA tour in the 70s and 80s was lacking. If you do an analysis using a metric like Elo rating from that era, you'd find that the distribution of Elo ratings was far more bimodal than it would become in the 90s and 2000s.
@@Thomas_Erickson I don’t know what tennis broadcasts you watch, but when Sharapova beat Serena 4 times in a row early in her career, she was touted as being the next great!! If it weren’t for Serena, she would have undoubtedly won more slams.
It's a debate to those who actually pay attention to tennis and have watched it across many era's. You can talk about Serena having 23 grand slam titles. Graf has 22, in 17 years. In 1988 she won all 4 grand slam titles. She then won the Australian open in 89 to make it 5 straight. She lost the French open but then won Wimbledon and the US Open to finish the year and the Australian open in 1990. Graff won 5 straight majors and 8 of 9. That is absurd. Don't tell me there isn't a debate.
@@silverguard8105 GOAT status belongs to the most dominant AND greatest ambassador. Serena is the face of women’s tennis….and it’s not even close 😂. Even people who never watched a match associate her name with tennis greatness…. you can’t say the same about Graf and others….
Total titles in career Serena 98, Martina 359! Total grand slam titles Serena 39, Martina 59! Serena singles match wins 855, Martina 1442 (and with higher winning %)! Total singles career titles Serena 73, Martina 167!!! Doubles match wins Serena 192, Martina 747!!!
When people who don’t watch tennis think of female tennis dominance they think of Serena. Her run transcended the sport…can’t say the same about the others
@@princecheck11 it's debate show. You're supposed to argue and he didn't. He just made the JJ REDICK CP3 vs Bob Cousy argument and then went straight to playing the race card. He didn't make any tennis arguments. So yeah...
@@amrithbharadwaj4945 you saying he played the race card like that was his whole argument that was one of his reasons why & u act like it’s wrong to include that on being the greatest
@@princecheck11 I said the race argument was one of the two counter arguments that he made. And yes, it matters but not as much as American sports media thinks it does. You never hear Latin American, Brown or Far east asian tennis players complain about it as much
I don't know what mad dog is talking about. The game in Serena's Era was more competive than in chris Everett or Martina's Era. Those who followed the game for decades know that when Martina and Chris dominated the game, they were using wood rackets. You can't compare the two eras. Longevity and winning makes Serena the GOAT. Serena had to eventually play players that weren't even born yet. She still managed to beat the majority of them. Chris and Martina never had that type of Longevity. Martina only became dominant in the later stages of her career after she started bulking up. She racked up most those slams because the women's field was so weak.
Agreed, and that is one definite metric by which different era's could possibly be compared; each player would be required to play with the frames, court surfaces, footwear/equipment, and string technology of the other over the course of several to many matches.
Loved tennis in the late 80’s & 90’s I’m was in high school watching the Williams Sisters come up. Very proud of what they and their father accomplished as a fellow African American, but Mad Dogg is right. Women’s tennis hasn’t been deep in 20 years. He forgot great players like Sanchez Vicario!
The goat status should be given to people that essentially became an ambassador for the sport and made the sport globally recognized. Michael Schumacher in F1 MJ in basketball Tiger Woods in Golf Serena in Tennis etc..
Maddog killed him in the argument and made some great pts. Then Duke toolbag boy brings up Jordan and Lebron and lost that too so then of course he has to play the race card.
Just like is Jackie Robinson the greatest of all time possibly no one had it harder than he..... But he wasn't he was great not the greatest black females Zina garrison, althea Gibson so she didn't pave anything you can't use her color or race
It's always very difficult to compare different eras in sports, Margareth Court won 24 grand slams, but people say that because of 13 of them were not in the open era, she doesn't have a point to be in GOAT debate, like it was her fault that the rules were different. It's true that serena didn't have a big caliber opponent to make a rivalry through her career like Agassi was for Sampras, or Monica Seles was for Graaf before her injury etc... But Serena was very consistent and play high level for a longtime. I think Graaf, Serena, Margareth Court and Navratilova should be in discussion for the GOAT title, but Navratilova will be the one to suffer the most in terms of solid arguments to have the edge over the other 3. Graaf is a very low profile personality and she's not american, so her notoriety is less powerful, only tennis lovers will know her meritocracy. At the end, it's not easy at all to pick one like it's easy to Pick MJ or Kareem in basketball or Pele in football, or Brady in American football or Ali in boxing, the GOAT in women tennis is very difficult one
@@Will-nb8qk Though it's on them that some didn't travel to Aus, one plays according to who is there, it doesn't lower the 'weight' of the match. If good players are injured or don't turn up it doesn't take away from the winner.
Not a time to be down on a great player retiring, but Russo is 100% correct. Based on big wins and the quality of opponents during their peak careers, I agree Graf was better all time, even with one less slam win. Would love to see peak Serena vs peak Graf. What a match. Props also to Martina who was incredible and her rivalry against the also great Chissy Evert put women's pro tennis on the map and set the stage for all women tennis pros that have followed. Only Billie Jean herself has done more for women's tennis and tennis in general.
- Steffi won the Golden Calendar Slam (only player in history) - Steffi has 377 weeks at #1 (all time record) - Steffi has 8 YE #1 (all time record) - Steffi won all of the Slams at least 4 times (only player in history) - Steffi won at least 6 Slams on all surfaces (only player in history) - Steffi won way more titles than Serena - Steffi has a higher winning % than Serena - Steffi was both more dominant and more consistent than Serena - Steffi had a higher peak than Serena - Steffi had better competition than Serena - Steffi accomplished more than Serena despite playing for 11 less years It’s no contest, Graf is the GOAT.
Graff won 4 grand slams in one year and Serena won 3 in one year but Mag Dogg makes a great point. Serena, Graff, Martina definitely is the top 3, where ever you rank them.
This was a fantastic debate. With me being someone who saw all of these great tennis players play (not Court who isn't even in their league), while I lean to Serena because of my love for her, I actually can agree that Steffi was better and Martina was on par. Steffi and Martina definitely played against better competition. I just wish the woman in Serena's era were more consistent. Only Venus and Justine were consistent; both winning 7 GS.
Of course Jay Williams is saying Serena is the best because either ESPN wants an alternate argument or because he has to bring up race and support her because of a certain portion of viewership that is watching and he can't risk criticism from that demographic. He did actually mention race and growing up in Compton,which has nothing to do with actual tennis play.
JWill doesn't realize that the women in the 80s played 1/2 the number of tournaments that women on the current WTA do. But to me, Steffi Graf is the 🐐. Won the Olympic Slam (Gold medal & all 4 slams) and only retired so early to have kids with Andre Agassi. 😎👍
@@hotfire4647 Graf, Seles & Hingis would have DOG WALKED Serena. Hingis for example was only 16 and became world #1 for 5yrs straight from 96-2000 before she retired at 21 from injury cutting her career short. Seles was the same, stabbed by a crazy fan and was never the same. Graf, last woman to win the calendar slam, last woman to win the Olympic slam, won 22 slams before age 29. At 29 Serena was only up to 13.
@@MafiaboysWorld so a 16 yo becoming #1 for 5 yrs straight is a strong era?Serena beat her at the 99 us open. Hingis didn't necessarily retire because of a particular injury. Seles not overcoming a CUT by a deranged fan that both Williams would've came back from is a sign of...Graf winning her slams in a shorter time doesn't necessarily mean what u want it to mean, how come she didn't stick around for a few more yrs, she was only 30, what she didn't want to match/surpass 24 slams?
Like all debates in sport on who was better, especially where it’s close and across different eras it will always really come down to opinion rather than fact. Same re Jordan and Lebron, Woods and Michelson, Pele and Messi/Ronaldo etc etc.
Martina Hingis would've dog walked Serena and it's not even close. Hingis had 13 grand slams by age 21 and was world #1 for 5yrs straight. Serena had 1 Grand Slam by age 21 and wasn't close to the Top 5 of the WTA tour. 🤦
Why are people mad at Mag Dog? He said it was debatable. They're on a debate show. Everyone's debating their own opinion. As long as this debate is qualified with "female", I have no problem.
This is too funny. The only time they talk about tennis is to cover Serena So that supports mad dog point about there not being anyone else elite as a rival for espn to talk about. And I'm a tennis fan. I see the depth of talent now.. But ten to fifteen years ago.. There was no one.
@@dee-c2032 Graf was much more dominant lol please don't make casual statements like these. 22/54>23/74 SIMPLE MATH. And Graf leads every other relevant stat
@@Fraudkovic no....23>22 point blank period. You can't knock Serena because she was able to stay healthy and had a longer career. There's nothing wrong with being second all time. A 17-18 year old Serena went 1-1 with Graf in the two matches they played. Graff was 30! Stop it.
@@dee-c2032 dumass 30 was the age most professional players retired at. So serena basically had a 1-1 record against graf at her retirement door. Sampras retired at 31. Just because serena is shamelessly playing till 41 farming wins against trash opposition doesn't mean anything. Graf has every record over serena. Serena got one more mickey mouse slams and 10 more outbursts at the umpire calling him sexist.
Martina is the Goat! She has more records than anyone male or female in tennis. I'm not just talking Grand Slams singles titles. There are a lot of factors. In the open era of tennis there was no one like her. She paved the way for female tennis players to condition and train they way they do now. She started it. She has the best serve and volley in the game. Look at her doubles and mixed double records. She played some of these players when she was in her 30's and still won tiles up until she was 50. Martina is the Goat! I of course ❤ Steffi and Serena as well but, I just spent a couple months rewatching old matches from the 70's and 80's and that was by far the best time in womens tennis.
Martina Navratilova was the most dominant woman’s tennis player I’ve ever seen, and she played against significantly better competition than Serena Williams. 🤷🏻♂️
Go back and look at how tennis players moved in the 80s and compare that to the raw athleticism you see from them today, and try to convince me that Serena doesn’t absolutely decimate those players. Sharipova easily takes the majority against them and even she couldn’t ever beat Serena.
@@akanimophilip8099 And that’s your adorable opinion. However, we live in a reality where Serena Williams went on to dominate women’s tennis in every conceivable way and is talked about all the time. Hope that doesn’t upset you too much, bud.
NBA players are more athletic now and have better medicine but seem to get hurt more than previous generations of NBA players when the NBA was much more physical
I don't know anything about tennis, but when you are ranking someone all-time, quality of competition has to be a major component of that. That is why Rocky Marciano is not the greatest heavyweight boxer of all time even though he was 49-0 with 43 KOs (he's top 5), while likes of Joe Louis and Muhammad Ali were both defeated multiple times but had tougher competition to beat and won more titles or held them for longer. They are both considered greater than Marciano in large part because of who they beat.
Its a simple answer and its a Yes. You can argue that she might not have won the hardest championships of overall talent but a prime Serena would beat every other woman in history in their prime. It really is not even a debate but i do acknowledge the way Mad dog's logic is. Its just not how I would judge greatness in this particular sport. I think Prime Serena wipes the floor with everyone even the mighty Graff.
a prime Serena would beat every other woman in history in their prime. It really is not even a debate Please enlighten everyone with the factual evidence you have to prove that…and I want factual evidence not your opinion
Oh I don't know; we would have to put a wooden racquet in Serena's hands, and have her play on faster grass courts to even begin to ascertain that statement...
Mad Dog does make a good argument when talking about competition. That being said, all you can do is beat who's in front of you, so for me Serena edges it very slightly over Graf and Martina
Lol no she doesn't. Even without the competition argument . Graf has a much better resume than serena. 58 more weeks at no 1 , calender golden slam. Highest conversion eate in grand slams ever male or female. 22/54 . And she did all that and retired at 30 years of age. This is not even half of it . I'm a bit of a casual when it comes to women's tennis so you can certainly assume there's more. She's more consistent and she's more dominant. If serena had 25 slams i wouldn't argue it but 1 more slam isn't enough to cover all the other stats graf has in her favour
I have a issue with people who argue a spirt they never followed. Serena is not better than Graf or Martina. She's just not. If u didn't watch stfu. Jay will reaction like he knows the players prior. Cut it out
always and the more insidious part of that is that the execs do know that it’s needed to appease a large segment of the their audience. and like anything, controversial takes sell.
Steffi Graf won 22 grand slams by the age of 29 she is 100% better than Serena. If she would have played till 40 she would at least have 30 if not more
If Monica Seles was.t sadly stabbed graf doesn't win that many grand slams. Graf is great, but Serena is undoubtedly better. You don't really understand tennis.
@@kindofbluenyc Name me one player Serena had to face regularly that was on the Level of seles graf and navratilova? If Serena would have played in that era she would have less than 10 grand slams
@@kindofbluenyc That doesn't matter. Wasn't 4 slams in the 1 calendar year, which is what makes the Grand Slam. That's why Novak was trying so hard to win all 4 slams last year but the pressure got to him at the US open and he missed out on the slam.
Dog brought up a big point with the advancement of the athletes through nutrition and equipment. Great players of the past doesn't get to enjoy those stuff yet still managed to dominate the competition..
Mad Dog won the debate. The level of competition is the #1 factor in the total number of titles won by a single player. The difference in the talent between the very best player such as Serena, Martina and Steffi is probably not nearly as significant as the overall level of the competition in determining the total number of individual titles won.
@@kentstallard6512: good Sir, Serena is definitely in the GOAT conversation and, for that matter, she's my GOAT. However, my larger point is that you just can't ignore level of competition in any debate on the GOAT.
Chris, you have a point, but I believe Serena is the best tennis player of all time. I will give Serena the edge over the other greats because she changed the game, unlike any other player. Her power and athleticism when she Venus came into the game were unmatched for many years. No one ever saw that power and athleticism before. She has 4 gold medals although 3 out of the 4 are in doubles and 1 in singles. Graf had won gold, bronze, and silver. Serena has won more tennis matches than anyone else with 365 wins.
But Graf has more WTA titles than Serena (107 vs 73) more matches wins (902-855) despite playing 10 less years than Serena, Graf had more weeks at no 1 (377 vs 319) , more year end no 1 (8 vs 5), longer match winning streak (66 vs 34). Graf had quadruple slam & won golden slam in 1988 something Serena never achieved. So Graf is GOAT then Martina then Serena.
- Steffi won the Golden Calendar Slam (only player in history) - Steffi has 377 weeks at #1 (all time record) - Steffi has 8 YE #1 (all time record) - Steffi won all of the Slams at least 4 times (only player in history) - Steffi won at least 6 Slams on all surfaces (only player in history) - Steffi won way more titles than Serena - Steffi has a higher winning % than Serena - Steffi was both more dominant and more consistent than Serena - Steffi had a higher peak than Serena - Steffi had better competition than Serena - Steffi accomplished more than Serena despite playing for 11 less years It’s no contest, Graf is the GOAT.
I was expecting Mad Dog to say something crazy but that was a legit argument. I can dig it. To be honest I don’t know enough about Tennis to have an opinion. Not sure if many ppl on TV do.
If she was a man we’d be talking about her like she was one of the greatest athletes of all time! She deserves her due as one of the greatest athletes male or female of all time!
Mad dog knows what he's talking about. Jay even talked about Serena's upbringing, like that hasnt got anything to do with who's better. Steffi Graff by a mile.
Williams way out of his element here. To bring basketball into the argument is useless here. Mad dog is right on the money here with everything he said.
Don't care what Doggy says I watched both Navratilova and SW, Williams would smoke Navratilova both in their prime. Williams has a much more dominant game in terms of physicality and speed, Williams played with much more power. I would put SW first with Graf a close 2nd though Graf is my favorite.
It’s gotta be Serena. But you really gotta appreciate Mad Dog’s pure knowledge of the history of multiple sports. Massively impressive. This was a great debate.
his argument was that Serena wouldn't have won as much if she was playing with them but doesn't bring up that they for sure wouldn't have won that many if they had to go up against either of the Williams sister defiantly serena
I genuinely think this isn't a stupid argument from Mad Dog. The women's game has been very up and down while Serena has been playing while in the 70s and 80s there was a consistent group of great players. That being said she still beats any other woman in history at her peak
She still beats any other woman in history at her peak Please enlighten everyone with the factual evidence you have to prove that. And I want factual evidence not your opinion
I agree with you…with one exception…prime seles…which we actually never witnessed because of the stabbing. If we got to see prime seles go against prime Serena, that would be a helluva game. That said, with all the talent and physical gifts Serena was blessed with, why are we celebrating her career? She wildly underachieved. With all those physical gifts, she never dominated an era like Graf. Shouldn’t she be statistically the GOAT by far and away?
No, she doesn’t. Steffi and Martina had a MUCH higher peak than Serena. Serena was never able to reach the kind of dominance Martina had in 1982-1986 and Steffi had in 1987-1989.
When I saw the headline I figured MadDog was gonna bust out some obscure name from the early 1900s like “Gertrude Beatrice Munroe was the greatest tennis player anyone had ever seen….on the Titanic anyway.”
It's definitely not debatable unless you are a contrary for sport troll or have that DNA that America has cultivated inside their people for a couple centuries.
@@kindofbluenyc all these things are debatable which is why it can be talked about. He said he would pick Serena but arguments CAN be made for the others.
Mad Dog is so wrong. Serena didn’t play anybody he would consider top 10 because she was so dominant. It’s the Michael Jordan argument. People say Jordan didn’t play anybody compared to certain other eras, but it wasn’t that there weren’t great players he was just that much better than everybody else. Same with Tiger Woods. Serena Williams is a top 3 athlete of all time regardless of sport or gender. We can’t in one breath celebrate Tom Brady as the best (my favorite nfl player ever) and his dominance over his career (playing a team game, where there were at least two to three championships that were won because of the defense) but ignore Serena’s dominance over the sport
I feel you but you have to pay attention to what mad dog said, the teams were overall better in Jordans time, and he also said tennis isn't a team sport it's 1v1
@@Dizzy160 he highlighted Bird/Magic teams and Jordan didn’t beat them when they were dominating. He beat Magic but Magic was far from his prime in 91’. We acknowledge Jordan’s prime which is when he started winning championships in the 90s. So Drexler, Barkley, Ewing, Malone, Stockton, Reggie, Payton…these are the individuals that Jordan competed against and suppressed our view of their greatness because of how dominant and great he was. MJ didn’t dominate the 80s when Bird and Magic were dominant
And for me personally I rate players that play 1vs1 sports over people that play team sports and rate people that play sports where you play one side and not the other even lower. Nothing is better than when you have to rely on yourself and no one else to win in terms of greatest athlete of all time.
No disrespect but J Will was not equipped for this, Mad Dog may not be a Tennis expert but he's a expert in debating HIS point, I would like to see a Tennis analyst debate this with Mad Dog instead. Example: MD saying Graff is winning a few Majors against Serena, okay well then how many would Serena win off of her? Graff wouldn't have 22, and if not for an autoimmune disease Venus would have 15+.
"Is it really the advancement of the athlete?" Bro in the 1950's the average US Citizen was like 5'6", now it's 5'9". These facts are easily available.
That argument makes no sense. Every athlete has advanced. It’s not like only Serena advanced. She is still playing against tougher competition because everyone has advanced.
The reason Serena's opponents isn't considered 'all time greats' or top 10 is because the ease of which she made beating them look. She absolutely DOMINATED tennis and made it look easy while doing it.
You do realize the only thing Serena has more of than Garf is Grand slam titles …, Garf had 22 by the time she was 30 and retired… by the time Serena was 30 she had 13-15 I believe.
This is such terrible logic. Even if Serena consistently beat them, why are you ignoring the fact that when Steffi had proper rivals or Navratilova had Evert they would constantly meet in Slam finals? If Serena is number 1, the number 2 player can only meet Serena in the final. Yet we never had a consistent player make it to the finals. Serena was better than everybody but the number 2 wasn't better than the rest, that's the issue.
Navratilova is the GOAT... Better competetion.. And has 59 Gran Slams all together in singles, doubles and mixed doubles.... And way more total titles than Serena.... Serena top 5 but not the GOAT... She is like Shaq of women tennis....
These guys are clueless! Stefi has one less Slam than Serena who has one less than Court. Stefi was #1 for a record 377 weeks, won more matches & tournaments at a greater % than Serena, Won a calendar Slam topped off with an Olympic Gold Medal (no man or woman has accomplished) All of this accomplished playing ten years less than Serena! Serena is getting hyped because she's American and came from a poor Black community which is a big accomplishment, however she falls short of Stefi's incredible career!
Before Serena had a child.. her grand slam final record was ridiculous and 2nd to none...and technically still is. No other player gas come back, from birthing a child, and reached as many slam finals!
Regardless of Mad Dog's opinions, his knowledge of sports history across multiple sports is impressive.
Mad Dog is the voice of white supremacy basically allowed to be open with it. Typical ESPN
Jay williams ain't no anything about tennis. Mad dog has great knowledge of sports. Martina is the goat c'mon 59 to 39 titles of Serena
@@supreme2818 More Grand Slams the only title that matters. And was far more dominant
The guy said cooper kupp is a HOF if he retired right now and was shaming micheal Thomas. Dude is an idiot and clearly racially motivated. He shits on Lamar, Kyler, Serena and MT. Yet he loves kupp, graf and Martina. Lol
Totally agree. Mad Dog is a walking encyclopedia and knows his stuff.
Steffie Graff was no joke in her era and well as Martina but I would have love to see Serena go against them. I think she would have a chance to take some wins.
They are all great but we will never know who is the goat IMHO
Finally, a debate where both sides were reasonable in their opinions, and didn't attack each other.
Amen to that.
Oh grow a pair
Lol
That actually was a good debate
It was refreshing
The end was perfect "that's all hypothetical"
"Isn't that what we're doing here"😅🤣🤣🤣
He got him with that one lol
And that's why debating athletes from different eras is really stupid. Most sports are played very differently nowadays due to the rule changes, equipment etc. There's too many variables, with no common point of reference and it ultimately becomes a case of comparing apples and oranges. Just appreciate the athletes who are playing today and stop comparing them to dudes who played some 20,30,40 years back.
This was one of the better debates I've seen on this show. No yelling, no insulting, both sides respecting each others opinions and providing counter arguments
cuz they dont care
Ryan Clark put him on notice
So turning around in a circle is showing respect.
Its undeniable. Serena is great. Martina and Graff were both great, but Serena pretty much slayed all her competition in her prime.
Graf won more and was more dominant and played for less time. She also had a year with all four majors+gold medal. She has everything on Serena but the one grand slam. If u want to say that’s the difference then Margaret court is the goat
- Steffi won the Golden Calendar Slam (only player in history)
- Steffi has 377 weeks at #1 (all time record)
- Steffi has 8 YE #1 (all time record)
- Steffi won all of the Slams at least 4 times (only player in history)
- Steffi won at least 6 Slams on all surfaces (only player in history)
- Steffi won way more titles than Serena
- Steffi has a higher winning % than Serena
- Steffi was both more dominant and more consistent than Serena
- Steffi had a higher peak than Serena
- Steffi had better competition than Serena
- Steffi accomplished more than Serena despite playing for 11 less years
It’s no contest, Graf is the GOAT.
Casual black American
graf was more dominate
Agreed
This man just said Venus Williams isn't a top 10 player of all time lmao! 🙄 you do realize if serens Williams doesn't exist Venus Williams would have at least 4 more grand slams wins?
Dismissed everything he said after that
Also Serena is the highest earner & Venus is the second highest earner in the history of women's tennis. Venus' bank account is definitely top 2 of all time
what a shot argument, if Nadal doesn’t exist Federer would have 10 more grand slams 😂😂😂😂
"If" is a very big word...
@@stinoooee.j5899 no it's not a shot argument because maddog is arguing the level of competition so what you're saying actually makes 0 sense
For me being a black kid watching sports Venus & Serena made me wanna watch tennis men or women if it wasn’t for them I wouldn’t have given tennis a second thought & to see what they had to overcome being black women in a pro dominantly white sport was nothing short of magnificent. For me SERENA is the greatest tennis player I’ve ever seen!!!
Great comment, nice to see she had such a great influence on your life.
And for that I think she not only best female, but best all time. First tennis player that comes to mind is her, and will always be her
Same!!!
Greatest you seen to the greatest of all timel Roger Federer, Rafael Nadal, Novak Djokovic and Pete Sampras..etc
I've become a Serena AND Venus fan. What they have done is something that can't be quantified. She's inspired others to follow her footsteps. When she is on TV I look to watch her and Venus. When I think of tennis, I think of Serena and then Venus
@@jonathanwatson1908 Serena
i thought he had already retired
I like how Mad Dog was in this argument because even though he doesn't think Serena is the GOAT, he doesn't think that it's crazy for other people to put her there. He just prefers the others more which I can respect. If this was about LeBron or another sport, he would think they were crazy.
Mad dog is how sports shows used to be. You had to have an array of knowledge. Not just I’m a football guy or I’m a basketball or baseball guy
Yeah these new guys think they know everything are better than the “old media “
@@sukhrajsinghnahal I mean they do. sports and humans evolve to say somebody in the 60's is better in sorts then somebody modern day is crazy. But let's use your debate say a regular doctor who has to study everything about the human body would they know more about the brain then a brain surgeon
@@shawnsmith9307 the debate isn't really about who's "better," it's about who's "greater." Max brings this up a lot, but for example plenty of sprinters can run faster than Jesse Owens now, they're "better," but they're most certainly not "greater."
@@back2back379 yeah he is greater because the impact he he had especially around that time and he also set a precedent so yeah I get that. Russo just doesn't argue that, he literally think they are better
Dude a clown 🤡 don't know sports at all
Not a fan of Jay but this is kinda unfair to him.
He doesn't know about anything Mad Dogg is saying here
that's why he brought up the Jordan thing, to try to bring the conversation to something he knows more about.
Exactly that why Jay just went to the race card..
Jay is a clown that needs to stick to basketball.
@@soda8736 what are you talking about
@@KSABSS jay was making it about race , but main difference is the number of lawsuits. 1 vs 24
Mad Dog actually made a great argument. I do think he is under-rating some of the current players.
No because they have not retired. Women Tennis right now is not consistent. So no debate needed. Maybe Ash Barty because she retired.
I don't think so, his argument was that Serena wouldn't have won as much if she was playing with them but doesn't bring up that they for sure wouldn't have won that many if they had to go up against either of the Williams sister defiantly serena
Mad Dog is right
Late 80-90 were all the greats just has the 201o' has the all time greats in men
No underating these women of today. Inconsistent with zero fight in them.
He needs someone with the knowledge of tennis to counter him. The depth in women's tennis over the past two decades is unparalleled historically. Those previous all-time greats didn't generally have to play tough early round matches. There were only ever a handful of players who could win a major. Whereas, during Serena's era there were always dozens of players capable of knocking out the top players. And the late 90s early 2000s period was a murderer's row of players like Hingis, Davenport, Seles, the Belgians, Sharapova and the Russians, etc. Then she had to face down multiple new generations.
@@VictorVonDoom. The women's game hasn't been poor. It has been characterized by parity. The overall athleticism and skill on tour is far beyond what existed prior to the sisters. Dominating is exceedingly difficult.
@@aardvarmario Agree, and that's owing largely to the onslaught of the "power" game in tennis, particularly among the women's game.
@@hiwayman981 I believe Mary Carrillo called it Big Babe tennis. I will always remember the 2005 Wimbledon semi-final between Venus and Sharapova. The incredible ball striking in that match really made me aware the sport had become something completely different.
and that is the most venerable and valid argument that completely obliterates mad dog’s attempt to devalue serena. even the player that he picked, martina navratilova concedes that serena is the best tennis player all time in her own comments and she was a skeptic early of serena.
Exactly. Monica Seles was spanking Graff before the stabbing, and she is not on Serena's level. Serena would have blown threw them. She would have given them the Sharapova treatment (approximately).
One of the best debates in a long time. Thank you for respecting each other and making great points
J. Will is generally a respectful debater
I feel like when we call Jordan, Tiger or Tom the greatest of all time in their respective sports, we refer to a lot of the circumstances they faced to rise up to the challenges of their times, or the off-field/course/court ripples they created. While Graf and Navratilova were fantastic tennis players, we wouldn't even be talking about women's tennis today without Serena and Venus' impact off the tennis court. The part that I think Mad Dog gets too caught up in is being politically neutral, by refering to on-court/field issues only; however, the reason he loves Cousy and Jordan and Co is that they created so many avenues for their future successors. They forged a path (eg. Working with a black man in Bill Russell as his leader to win some 750 titles, or creating a shoe line that allows ordinary folk to connect with NBA players in style) that others can admire or walk on, and that's precisely what Serena's done.
Agree with both Williams sister's trailblazing off-court, but especially Serena given her magnanimous career. Lest we forget however another GOAT-contender, Billie Jean King's contributions in that area as well; her application of Title IX into (womens') sports, the formation of the WTA, and WTT, just to name a few. And what Navratilova did during her early career, defecting from an eastern-bloc country at a time in which doing so may well have gotten her assassinated by her own government, cannot be overlooked or slighted in light of the more recent accomplishments of the aforementioned American siblings. As well, Martina became a pioneer for modern women's tennis ala Ivan Lendl; her diet, workout/cross-training regimen, and preternatural skill with the tennis racquet asked questions of her opponents in the 1980's that hadn't been posed before in the sport. Some of her achievements, stats, and titles remain peerless to this day; as such, she's definitely my GOAT pick, as much as she is Mad Dog's, seemingly anyway.
@Joseph fair enough. All one can indulge in is relative comparisons between athletes and eras, and I'd say the impact Serena, specifically had, was comparable to say Bird, Magic, Bonds or Jordan. Had a lot to do with reviving audience interest in the sport. Again, fair point.
Jordan and Tiger are debatable! There was Russell, KAJ, Chamberlain, Magic and the Golden Bear who is arguably the greatest golfer ever! What isn't debatable in G.O.A.T. status is Tom Brady! Full stop!
@Heg Dog Brady is the greatest & most accomplished N.F.L. player all time! So if you're starting a team you're going to select a LB over the most important position on the field?😂🤔 Come on man!
Greatest of all time is talking about your play, how you faired against your contemporary. It doesn't matter what your off-court influence is
Mad Dog is legit historian! He even knows who built the pyramid!
😂😂 now that is funny Black historians advance
@@moalston4203 Sorry it was a white alien who build the pyramids
@@jasonlewis460 nope not all
@@moalston4203 Trust bro, there is more evidence that its true
Finally!! You guys are talking about other sports!! I just appreciate the debate! I love tennis!
It a sports programming network what else is new
@@moalston4203 It's the LeBron show
I feel you, wish they would more. But it’s typically when Tiger (golf) or Serena (Tennis) is in the news that they discuss it. Or if there is a controversy (i.e the liv situation)
@@grando2750 politics is parts of sports 🐑
Yup!! Did you see Kyrigos take out Medvedev.. He made that Wimbledon final statement. The only thing upsetting was Alcaraz losing in the first round. Fake # 2 seed.
See kids ? " That's a fair point"
" Reasonable"
That's how you have a good debate
It's ok to have a different opinion about an specific topic
And when both sides show some sort of respect and it is even better
It was a good segment
I'm shocked Molly didn't start up about "why say female?" after asking the question herself.
Cause she knows
You just wanna be mad about anything
J will the one being a cornball here, not Molly. She be getting too much hate
it's stupid comparing female athletes to male athletes. especially in something power and speed based like tennis. stop reaching.
🤣🤣🤣🤣
You can’t take away majors from Serena by putting her in an era with the other two greatest and then not take away any from them. There’s not unlimited majors to win so clearly if all 3 played in the same era, all 3 would have lost numbers in their total majors
Graf won 22/54 bruh that's the highest win conversion rate ever in women's tennis. The next best is 11-1 by some dude from the black and white era.
Not to mention she retired at 30. She's like jordan
Martina won 20 more singles and doubles..It couldn't be more obvious she's the greatest of all time.
@@colinforsecs3393 doubles doesn't count in the goat argument brother . Your partner is doing half the work it's an entirely different discussion .
You can argue she's the doubles goat but graf is the singles goat.
@@Fraudkovic She's overall goat dude..
@@Fraudkovic She was 5-4 vs Graf, their very last match Martina was much older and still beat her. Graf was awesome, but history is history
Because we all go to Jason Williams for our tennis knowledge.
Lol
u go to mad dog for tennis knowledge?
@@princecheck11 white dudes know more about tennis let’s get real
@@maljones1398 that dont change anything i saidd
@@princecheck11 who you think has more tennis knowledge between the 2?
He brings up the caliber of competition over her career but whose fault is it that the other players that were in the same single-digit slam counts earlier in her career decided to call it quits? Not hers. She maintained a quality of play over an extended period of time in tandem with an ever-growing pool of talent.
Also injuries. Henin Hardienne, Hingis suffered injuries. Clisters quit that's true
It's FUNNY how people of RUSSO'S ILK when it comes to people of Color they always have to move the goalpost to justify People of Color aren't greater than they're great white hope. BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUT when it comes to BASEBALL you don't hear One Anglo Saxon Talking Head like RUSSO admit or say well BABE RUTH ONLY PLAYED AGAINST WHITE PLUMBERS, MECHANICS, POSTMEN, BUS DRIVERS ETC. BABE RUTH did not play against the BEST BASEBALL PLAYERS of his ERA because the BEST PLAYERS were banned due to america's RACIST HISTORY and those players were BLACK! So miss me with the she didn't play against greater competition than Martina or Graf...
Look at men’s tennis where you have essentially three all-timers who, despite their competition, were each able to amass 20 Grand Slams. In women’s tennis, no one comes close to Serena, yet in the 80s, there were players who were at least close to Martina and yet she still amassed so many Grand Slams.
its not her fault but that's irrelevant
@@eric7441 OR one can surmise that Serena was just THAT dominant .
Both side have their arguments, but to downgrade Serena lack of competitions, I have to disagree. Below is a list of players that Serena need to go thru to win grand slams.
Hingis
Davenport
Venus
Kim C
Justin
Jennifer C
Sharvspova
Kerber
Mausemo
Vika
These players are all multiple grand slams winners and reach the number 1 ranking.
The first 8 players you named were only relevant in the late 90s and mid 2000s. Her competition was garbage in her prime yeads
When Venus,Henin and Klijsters were at their best Serena wasn't winning as often
@@leepatrick9432 I agree, I personally think that the Williams father destroyed Venus career, she was an excellent player, and I saw her not playing her best on purpose when facing Serena at some point.
On that list, Steffi Graf had to play against 5 of them, she has a winning record against them and beat them all in grand slams. I am talking about Hingis, Davenport, Venus, Kim Clijters and Capriati
Seriously havent you watched tennis after Henin retired, after 2009??
As a black man and knowing what the Williams sisters did for the culture, I'd want to say Serena, but Mad Dog is right.
Genuine question, what did Serena do for the culture of tennis? If we are talking about her race, Arthur Ashe and Althea Gibson were far more impactful. If we are talking about the power game, Chris everet, Graf, and seles were the trailblazers.
@@dustierbottoms just because Ashe et al did great things prior doesn't diminish her impact now. She opened doors for women making real money in sport and is a beacon of excellence for her race and others.
@@dustierbottoms no Naomi Osaka, No Stevens, no Coco Gauff and other like them without Serena and Venus. Serena offered viability to the sport for a current pool of girls who wouldn't have tried it otherwise. Cannot underestimate that part. She's in the bracket of Gibson on the women's side in that respect.
@@droid1appmkr Serena has said her biggest inspiration growing up was Monica seles. She wanted to hit like Monica. While it’s great to be have a role model of the same race, I highly doubt there would be no black tennis players ever had the Williams never existed. That seems like a stretch. Who was tiger woods role model? As far as being a beacon of excellence, I actually think as great as she was, she underachieved. And she had so many problems with poor sportsmanship throughout her career.
I think you can make a case for either one of them. Steffi was more versatile and more dominant during her peak. Serena was a revolutionary power player who stayed at the top of her game for the better part of her 20+ year career. They were both really good doubles players-I’d have to give the edge to Serena here, though.
If there’s an asterisk on Steffi’s career it’s the fact that Seles, her biggest rival, had her career shanked by that insane fan who, y’know, shanked her.
I feel like Martina needs to be in the mix her, too, although I’d have to put her behind Steffi & Serena. Martina’s definitely the greatest mixed doubles player of all-time…
Mad Dog's been getting a lot of hate lately, but I honestly love listening to him talk about the history of just about every sport. He may get some takes wrong, but in this debate he destroyed J Will.
I just hate how he does the corny walk off thing once mad dogg initially answered the question. Like bruh only Stephen a can do that the right way😂
I think Serena is the GOAT. But mad dog made a good argument. He usually way off
He did make valid points
And he said it like 50 times you can debate if Serena can be number one meaning it's either or
Ever heard of djokovic nadal or Federer? You can’t say “tennis goat” and not include those three
He made the argument most people use to not rank Floyd Mayweather as the best of all time. Mayweather didn't beat the best of his era until they were out of their primes.
I don't know. These Best of all-time debates are all boring. We can never know the right answers. The sports change, technology changes, and the physical ability of athletes change.
@@semi6544 you're 99.9 percent right the 0.01 is Michael Jordan
Graf won 22 grand slam titles by age of 29. Decimates anyone else. Serena, great as she is, took way longer to win same amount. Graf is GOAT!
Court won 21 grand slams by age 28, 24 by 31.
It must be said that the debaters' comment are disingenuous and have no credibility whatsover to not even mention Margaret Court who won 11 of her 24 grand slams in the 'open' era (from 1968), proving that she was superior over 'professionals' as well in her efforts. She also won 9 of her 19 doubles slams in the open era. Furthermore, she won 3 grand slam singles after her first child whereas Williams won one which has some significance in terms of mental acumen. Very significantly, Williams had 10 more pro years than Court, or perhaps likely reduce that to 7 or 8 years being that Williams turned pro at 14 (Court 17 or 18) and one generally wouldn't expect a person to win a slam before they were about 16 or 17 going by the example of Hingis who won at 16. Court is clearly the greatest player of all time due to the weight of the all conquering grand slams yet Williams would have been the equal greatest and the greatest of all time if respectively she had equaled and out-'slammed' Court. There's zero difference that Court won 13 of her 24 slams in the pre-open era because the 'professionals' sought 'pro' money of their own volition and by their own decision declined playing the slams so it's on them. It doesn't mean they were better than Court, but that they just wanted to earn more money.
Clijsters and Henin retired in their mid 20s because they knew there was no point carrying on with Serena around. Sharapova continued but was driven to PEDs to try to overcome Serena and still couldn't. Navratilova won 9 wimbledons in a time where the other players were completely substandard on grass. Serena would have won 15 wimbledons against the likes of Chris Evert.
Clijsters retired to start a family and Henin retired due to burnout. Their decisions had nothing to do with Serena.
Navratilova won Wimbledon by beating the likes of Goolagong, Evert, Seles and Graf multiple times, a level of competition Serena has never had to face.
Graf is the GOAT.
making an argument about a modern player being sent back is really dumb. equipment, technology, training, even the mental makeup of the game has changed significantly since that time. I can tell you right now, Serena's game would not translate well to 80s style tennis.
Martina Hingis beat Serena Willams in her PRIME. Martina Hingis would have won 24 Grandslams if she didn't get ban for cocaine.
@@Thomas_Erickson correct, they wouldn't return her serve!
@@PravoslavniVitez
Serena beat Steffi in the final at Indian Wells when she was just 17 and before you say Steffi was past it by then she won the French that year! Serena is the GOAT, if it wasn't for illness, injury bad officials she'd have won 30 minimum. Sharapova was as good as any of the players of the Navratilova era. She'd have won 10 or 12 slams in the 80s or 90s. Wozniacki was very similar in style and quality to Evert but couldn't live with Serena. Just ask Martina or Evert who is the GOAT!
A debate where one guy knows tennis, and the other has no idea.
serena would take a lot of titles from those 2 as well,
just like in the case of federer, jokavic & nadal
Hingis career was short but when she was healthy, definitely looked the best alltime.
As a young black girl watching Serena, Venus, Martina H, and Graff-Graff was the more experienced player and more agile of all of them. The Williams sisters' possessed power I've never seen from women players before. But there was always SOMETHING about Martina H that left me intrigued with the talent she brought to the game. She's always been in my favorite personal top 10 players.
Reasonable debate, I like it. Dude makes some really good points
Graff won the calendar grand slam in 1988 and went 3/4 grand slams in a year FOUR other times. All while beating future hall of famers in ten less years than Serena has needed to rack up her grand slams.
Great point...... Like Emmitt Smith all time rushing leader, how long did it take
Stefi is the GOAT*. That * is Monica Seles.... se their head to head before she was stabbed. She not wining 22 with a healthy, younger Seles, Period.
Margaret Court is the best player of all time. With a record 24 Grand Slam singles titles, it's hard to argue. Add in her 19 doubles and 19 mixed doubles titles and Court has a record 62 Major titles to her credit.
Margaret court played before civil rights 😂😂😂😂😂
She definitely wouldn’t have 24 if they allowed all of the players to travel over seas when she played
Thank you Mad Dog. The disrespect people show Graf is vomit inducing
100% the greatest but she isn't from the States so they don't care
@@oscarthomasfifa4871 Exactly she had 22 slams at age 30 when she retired compared to Serena’s 13 at the same age. Also won CYGS and Olympic Gold in same year and has 4 slams at each one which Serena can’t say. It’s just moronic honestly
@@lyndonchastain3181 yeah but her main competitor monica seles got stabbed in her prime. Imagine if someone stabbed nadal in his prime , Federer would have more majors
guys, if seles isn't stabbed by a graf supporter, are we talking about graf??? seles was closer to Serena than graf
@@derekkeane5152 Name me one competitor of Serena that was on the Level of seles graf or navratilova. Serena would have less than 10 grand slams if she would have played in that era
Even though Mad Dog has silly arguments with basketball players in the past, he definitely earns respect in taking history into consideration. The guy is like a Maester in GoT, he knows history quite well.
I agree. He actually makes the debate lot more interesting, and First Take watchable now.
Silly Argument That a Pep talk when you use that word to Describe What discussion hes improvise and when he bring up basketball player In the Past and earn to be heard Is part of being Historian Bro regardless what he does.
Henin, Clijsters, Sharapova, Venus, Hingis, Davenport, Azarenka, Capriati......Serena had PLENTY of competition
What he said about Sharapova completely contradicted his whole point!
No he was right!!! Martina Hingis beat Serena Willams multiple times and there is no way she would have lost 15 times straight to her. If Martina Hingis dint get BAN for cocaine she would have 23 Grand Slams also.
Exactly. If you beat the #2 player 19 times in a row, and that player was dominating everybody else for a stretch, then that speaks to how dominant the #1 was.
@@DaggerMan11 that would be true, but no one has ever put Sharapova anywhere near the top of tennis conversation. She’s never even been a HM to the top 10 discussion. So his point is, which historically great player can you use to measure Serena against? Not saying he’s right, but that’s his point.
@@Thomas_Erickson Eh, she definitely belongs in an Honorable Mention to the top 10 discussion. There's really not much separating Sharapova's career from the Henin/Venus/Goolagong tier. And if she had more success against Serena she'd be firmly within that tier. But also, the depth on the WTA tour in the 70s and 80s was lacking. If you do an analysis using a metric like Elo rating from that era, you'd find that the distribution of Elo ratings was far more bimodal than it would become in the 90s and 2000s.
@@Thomas_Erickson I don’t know what tennis broadcasts you watch, but when Sharapova beat Serena 4 times in a row early in her career, she was touted as being the next great!! If it weren’t for Serena, she would have undoubtedly won more slams.
How can this be even a debate ? Serena the 🐐🐐🐐
It's a debate to those who actually pay attention to tennis and have watched it across many era's. You can talk about Serena having 23 grand slam titles. Graf has 22, in 17 years. In 1988 she won all 4 grand slam titles. She then won the Australian open in 89 to make it 5 straight. She lost the French open but then won Wimbledon and the US Open to finish the year and the Australian open in 1990. Graff won 5 straight majors and 8 of 9. That is absurd. Don't tell me there isn't a debate.
@@silverguard8105 GOAT status belongs to the most dominant AND greatest ambassador. Serena is the face of women’s tennis….and it’s not even close 😂. Even people who never watched a match associate her name with tennis greatness…. you can’t say the same about Graf and others….
@@TheSk8erGamer That's from an US-perspective. In the rest of the world Steffi is regarded as GOAT.
JWill huffing and puffing like he didnt know Mad Dog had to take another side because it is a debate show.
You vultures really have ruined sports media.
J Will cracks me up with his serious face man
Total titles in career Serena 98, Martina 359! Total grand slam titles Serena 39, Martina 59! Serena singles match wins 855, Martina 1442 (and with higher winning %)! Total singles career titles Serena 73, Martina 167!!! Doubles match wins Serena 192, Martina 747!!!
When people who don’t watch tennis think of female tennis dominance they think of Serena. Her run transcended the sport…can’t say the same about the others
Mad Dog didn't have to debate someone who actually knew the sport. He made good arguments but it was easy money for him with JWill
bc he didnt break down every accomplishment in tennis means he dk about the topic
@@princecheck11 it's debate show. You're supposed to argue and he didn't. He just made the JJ REDICK CP3 vs Bob Cousy argument and then went straight to playing the race card. He didn't make any tennis arguments. So yeah...
@@amrithbharadwaj4945 you saying he played the race card like that was his whole argument that was one of his reasons why & u act like it’s wrong to include that on being the greatest
@@princecheck11 I said the race argument was one of the two counter arguments that he made. And yes, it matters but not as much as American sports media thinks it does. You never hear Latin American, Brown or Far east asian tennis players complain about it as much
@@amrithbharadwaj4945 Just bc you dont complain about it dont mean anything & u act like serena brought it up
I don't know what mad dog is talking about. The game in Serena's Era was more competive than in chris Everett or Martina's Era.
Those who followed the game for decades know that when Martina and Chris dominated the game, they were using wood rackets. You can't compare the two eras.
Longevity and winning makes Serena the GOAT.
Serena had to eventually play players that weren't even born yet. She still managed to beat the majority of them.
Chris and Martina never had that type of Longevity.
Martina only became dominant in the later stages of her career after she started bulking up.
She racked up most those slams because the women's field was so weak.
Serena is not beating Martina with the wooden badminton racquet Martina played with in the day
Agreed, and that is one definite metric by which different era's could possibly be compared; each player would be required to play with the frames, court surfaces, footwear/equipment, and string technology of the other over the course of several to many matches.
Loved tennis in the late 80’s & 90’s I’m was in high school watching the Williams Sisters come up. Very proud of what they and their father accomplished as a fellow African American, but Mad Dogg is right. Women’s tennis hasn’t been deep in 20 years. He forgot great players like Sanchez Vicario!
Navratilova has 20 more major titles in singles and doubles. She has to be No 1
The goat status should be given to people that essentially became an ambassador for the sport and made the sport globally recognized.
Michael Schumacher in F1
MJ in basketball
Tiger Woods in Golf
Serena in Tennis
etc..
There you have it folks can't argue with that
Yeah right before Serena nobody cared about tennis LMAO bad take
@@MrGenexxx I like 🎾
Tiger is nowhere neat the GOAT in Golf, Jack Nicklaus was far better for far longer.
Jordan also isn't even top 3 in NBA history.
1. Bill Russell
2. Kareem
3. Magic Johnson
Maddog killed him in the argument and made some great pts. Then Duke toolbag boy brings up Jordan and Lebron and lost that too so then of course he has to play the race card.
Just like is Jackie Robinson the greatest of all time possibly no one had it harder than he..... But he wasn't he was great not the greatest black females Zina garrison, althea Gibson so she didn't pave anything you can't use her color or race
It's always very difficult to compare different eras in sports, Margareth Court won 24 grand slams, but people say that because of 13 of them were not in the open era, she doesn't have a point to be in GOAT debate, like it was her fault that the rules were different. It's true that serena didn't have a big caliber opponent to make a rivalry through her career like Agassi was for Sampras, or Monica Seles was for Graaf before her injury etc... But Serena was very consistent and play high level for a longtime. I think Graaf, Serena, Margareth Court and Navratilova should be in discussion for the GOAT title, but Navratilova will be the one to suffer the most in terms of solid arguments to have the edge over the other 3. Graaf is a very low profile personality and she's not american, so her notoriety is less powerful, only tennis lovers will know her meritocracy. At the end, it's not easy at all to pick one like it's easy to Pick MJ or Kareem in basketball or Pele in football, or Brady in American football or Ali in boxing, the GOAT in women tennis is very difficult one
But it is easy to say that it shouldn't be Serena if you look at my arguments above. She has by far the weakest case.
Margaret Court will never really be in calculations. Her opponents were English speakers of which many couldn’t be bothered travelling ti Australia.
@@Will-nb8qk Though it's on them that some didn't travel to Aus, one plays according to who is there, it doesn't lower the 'weight' of the match. If good players are injured or don't turn up it doesn't take away from the winner.
@@GodsView1 : In generational comparisons it does, which I thought would be needless to mention to an adult 🤦♂️
@@Will-nb8qk You're forgetting that Court was of the Calibre that won 24 slams. She could beat whoever & did
Graff and Martina won dozens of titles more than Serena, why is that not being mentioned.
Not a time to be down on a great player retiring, but Russo is 100% correct. Based on big wins and the quality of opponents during their peak careers, I agree Graf was better all time, even with one less slam win. Would love to see peak Serena vs peak Graf. What a match. Props also to Martina who was incredible and her rivalry against the also great Chissy Evert put women's pro tennis on the map and set the stage for all women tennis pros that have followed. Only Billie Jean herself has done more for women's tennis and tennis in general.
This was the best DEBATE they've had in awhile.
Madd dogg WINS!!
It’s not really debatable, Serena is the best
- Steffi won the Golden Calendar Slam (only player in history)
- Steffi has 377 weeks at #1 (all time record)
- Steffi has 8 YE #1 (all time record)
- Steffi won all of the Slams at least 4 times (only player in history)
- Steffi won at least 6 Slams on all surfaces (only player in history)
- Steffi won way more titles than Serena
- Steffi has a higher winning % than Serena
- Steffi was both more dominant and more consistent than Serena
- Steffi had a higher peak than Serena
- Steffi had better competition than Serena
- Steffi accomplished more than Serena despite playing for 11 less years
It’s no contest, Graf is the GOAT.
Graff won 4 grand slams in one year and Serena won 3 in one year but Mag Dogg makes a great point. Serena, Graff, Martina definitely is the top 3, where ever you rank them.
Graff was relentless and my era so im gonna say she's the greatest.
This was a fantastic debate. With me being someone who saw all of these great tennis players play (not Court who isn't even in their league), while I lean to Serena because of my love for her, I actually can agree that Steffi was better and Martina was on par. Steffi and Martina definitely played against better competition. I just wish the woman in Serena's era were more consistent. Only Venus and Justine were consistent; both winning 7 GS.
Of course Jay Williams is saying Serena is the best because either ESPN wants an alternate argument or because he has to bring up race and support her because of a certain portion of viewership that is watching and he can't risk criticism from that demographic. He did actually mention race and growing up in Compton,which has nothing to do with actual tennis play.
JWill doesn't realize that the women in the 80s played 1/2 the number of tournaments that women on the current WTA do. But to me, Steffi Graf is the 🐐. Won the Olympic Slam (Gold medal & all 4 slams) and only retired so early to have kids with Andre Agassi. 😎👍
And Serena beat Graf twice and Graf retired,she didn't want any parts of Serena!!
Serena the 🐐 it's not even close
@@hotfire4647 Graf, Seles & Hingis would have DOG WALKED Serena. Hingis for example was only 16 and became world #1 for 5yrs straight from 96-2000 before she retired at 21 from injury cutting her career short. Seles was the same, stabbed by a crazy fan and was never the same. Graf, last woman to win the calendar slam, last woman to win the Olympic slam, won 22 slams before age 29. At 29 Serena was only up to 13.
@@MafiaboysWorld so a 16 yo becoming #1 for 5 yrs straight is a strong era?Serena beat her at the 99 us open. Hingis didn't necessarily retire because of a particular injury. Seles not overcoming a CUT by a deranged fan that both Williams would've came back from is a sign of...Graf winning her slams in a shorter time doesn't necessarily mean what u want it to mean, how come she didn't stick around for a few more yrs, she was only 30, what she didn't want to match/surpass 24 slams?
@@MafiaboysWorld 🎯
Like all debates in sport on who was better, especially where it’s close and across different eras it will always really come down to opinion rather than fact. Same re Jordan and Lebron, Woods and Michelson, Pele and Messi/Ronaldo etc etc.
If Serena played Steffi, Martina and Chrissie in GS Finals, they wouldn’t have as many slams as they have so idk what Mad Dog is saying
Martina Hingis would've dog walked Serena and it's not even close. Hingis had 13 grand slams by age 21 and was world #1 for 5yrs straight. Serena had 1 Grand Slam by age 21 and wasn't close to the Top 5 of the WTA tour. 🤦
Serena would literally have like 5 grand slams at most if she had to play against These women for her grand slams titles
Why are people mad at Mag Dog? He said it was debatable. They're on a debate show. Everyone's debating their own opinion. As long as this debate is qualified with "female", I have no problem.
This is too funny.
The only time they talk about tennis is to cover Serena
So that supports mad dog point about there not being anyone else elite as a rival for espn to talk about.
And I'm a tennis fan.
I see the depth of talent now.. But ten to fifteen years ago.. There was no one.
Or that just shows how dominant Serena is/was.....Serena is undoubtedly the GOAT
@@dee-c2032 Graf was much more dominant lol please don't make casual statements like these.
22/54>23/74 SIMPLE MATH. And Graf leads every other relevant stat
@@Fraudkovic no....23>22 point blank period. You can't knock Serena because she was able to stay healthy and had a longer career. There's nothing wrong with being second all time. A 17-18 year old Serena went 1-1 with Graf in the two matches they played. Graff was 30! Stop it.
@@Fraudkovic dude said "much more dominant" lmfaoo
@@dee-c2032 dumass 30 was the age most professional players retired at. So serena basically had a 1-1 record against graf at her retirement door.
Sampras retired at 31. Just because serena is shamelessly playing till 41 farming wins against trash opposition doesn't mean anything.
Graf has every record over serena. Serena got one more mickey mouse slams and 10 more outbursts at the umpire calling him sexist.
Martina is the Goat! She has more records than anyone male or female in tennis. I'm not just talking Grand Slams singles titles. There are a lot of factors. In the open era of tennis there was no one like her. She paved the way for female tennis players to condition and train they way they do now. She started it. She has the best serve and volley in the game. Look at her doubles and mixed double records. She played some of these players when she was in her 30's and still won tiles up until she was 50. Martina is the Goat! I of course ❤ Steffi and Serena as well but, I just spent a couple months rewatching old matches from the 70's and 80's and that was by far the best time in womens tennis.
Martina Navratilova was the most dominant woman’s tennis player I’ve ever seen, and she played against significantly better competition than Serena Williams. 🤷🏻♂️
Go back and look at how tennis players moved in the 80s and compare that to the raw athleticism you see from them today, and try to convince me that Serena doesn’t absolutely decimate those players. Sharipova easily takes the majority against them and even she couldn’t ever beat Serena.
You wouldn't be talking of Serena this much if Justin Henin didnt retire too early.
@@akanimophilip8099 And that’s your adorable opinion. However, we live in a reality where Serena Williams went on to dominate women’s tennis in every conceivable way and is talked about all the time. Hope that doesn’t upset you too much, bud.
NBA players are more athletic now and have better medicine but seem to get hurt more than previous generations of NBA players when the NBA was much more physical
That's a stupid argument. Ofc players of today are better than that of the past. But that not exactly what we use in GOAT debates.
I don't know anything about tennis, but when you are ranking someone all-time, quality of competition has to be a major component of that. That is why Rocky Marciano is not the greatest heavyweight boxer of all time even though he was 49-0 with 43 KOs (he's top 5), while likes of Joe Louis and Muhammad Ali were both defeated multiple times but had tougher competition to beat and won more titles or held them for longer. They are both considered greater than Marciano in large part because of who they beat.
Its a simple answer and its a Yes. You can argue that she might not have won the hardest championships of overall talent but a prime Serena would beat every other woman in history in their prime. It really is not even a debate but i do acknowledge the way Mad dog's logic is. Its just not how I would judge greatness in this particular sport. I think Prime Serena wipes the floor with everyone even the mighty Graff.
a prime Serena would beat
every other woman in history in their
prime. It really is not even a debate
Please enlighten everyone with the factual evidence you have to prove that…and I want factual evidence not your opinion
Oh I don't know; we would have to put a wooden racquet in Serena's hands, and have her play on faster grass courts to even begin to ascertain that statement...
Prime for prime, both Navratilova and Graf were better than Serena. They had the higher peak, were more dominant and more consistent.
Serena Williams’ biggest competitor in her era was Maria Sharapova.
Mad Dog does make a good argument when talking about competition. That being said, all you can do is beat who's in front of you, so for me Serena edges it very slightly over Graf and Martina
Lol no she doesn't. Even without the competition argument . Graf has a much better resume than serena. 58 more weeks at no 1 , calender golden slam. Highest conversion eate in grand slams ever male or female. 22/54 . And she did all that and retired at 30 years of age.
This is not even half of it . I'm a bit of a casual when it comes to women's tennis so you can certainly assume there's more.
She's more consistent and she's more dominant.
If serena had 25 slams i wouldn't argue it but 1 more slam isn't enough to cover all the other stats graf has in her favour
I have a issue with people who argue a spirt they never followed. Serena is not better than Graf or Martina. She's just not. If u didn't watch stfu. Jay will reaction like he knows the players prior. Cut it out
You already KNEW he was going to say no based upon the other names. I'll just leave it at that.
Right.. he choose the lighter skin always..lol
always and the more insidious part of that is that the execs do know that it’s needed to appease a large segment of the their audience. and like anything, controversial takes sell.
Watched it multiple times fuse it’s refreshing to not see them hating each other
The GOAT still debatable... Steffi, Serena, Margaret, Martina & Chris was the top 5 of all time 👍👍👍
MAD DOG BRINGING KNOWLEDGE!!
Steffi Graf won 22 grand slams by the age of 29 she is 100% better than Serena. If she would have played till 40 she would at least have 30 if not more
If Monica Seles was.t sadly stabbed graf doesn't win that many grand slams. Graf is great, but Serena is undoubtedly better. You don't really understand tennis.
Steffi also was the last woman to win the Grand Slam. 👍
@@kindofbluenyc Name me one player Serena had to face regularly that was on the Level of seles graf and navratilova? If Serena would have played in that era she would have less than 10 grand slams
@@MafiaboysWorld True. But Serena won the "Serena Slam".
@@kindofbluenyc That doesn't matter. Wasn't 4 slams in the 1 calendar year, which is what makes the Grand Slam. That's why Novak was trying so hard to win all 4 slams last year but the pressure got to him at the US open and he missed out on the slam.
Navratilova and Steffi Graf are ahead.
I thought we've already been through this with John McEnroe. 😏
Dog brought up a big point with the advancement of the athletes through nutrition and equipment. Great players of the past doesn't get to enjoy those stuff yet still managed to dominate the competition..
All of the other women would have adapted and become way better players. Martina Hingis would of WON 23 Grandslams if Cocaine was legal.
Mad Dog won the debate. The level of competition is the #1 factor in the total number of titles won by a single player. The difference in the talent between the very best player such as Serena, Martina and Steffi is probably not nearly as significant as the overall level of the competition in determining the total number of individual titles won.
Level of competition? LOL
Graf was getting beat by Seles regularly until the stabbing.
Only the ignorant and haters deny Serena's GOAT status.
@@kentstallard6512: good Sir, Serena is definitely in the GOAT conversation and, for that matter, she's my GOAT. However, my larger point is that you just can't ignore level of competition in any debate on the GOAT.
@@kentstallard6512 Martina Navratilova won 167 titles🤫🤫 Serena 73 😂😂
Chris, you have a point, but I believe Serena is the best tennis player of all time. I will give Serena the edge over the other greats because she changed the game, unlike any other player. Her power and athleticism when she Venus came into the game were unmatched for many years. No one ever saw that power and athleticism before. She has 4 gold medals although 3 out of the 4 are in doubles and 1 in singles. Graf had won gold, bronze, and silver. Serena has won more tennis matches than anyone else with 365 wins.
But Graf has more WTA titles than Serena (107 vs 73) more matches wins (902-855) despite playing 10 less years than Serena, Graf had more weeks at no 1 (377 vs 319) , more year end no 1 (8 vs 5), longer match winning streak (66 vs 34). Graf had quadruple slam & won golden slam in 1988 something Serena never achieved. So Graf is GOAT then Martina then Serena.
She’s the GOAT hands down.
- Steffi won the Golden Calendar Slam (only player in history)
- Steffi has 377 weeks at #1 (all time record)
- Steffi has 8 YE #1 (all time record)
- Steffi won all of the Slams at least 4 times (only player in history)
- Steffi won at least 6 Slams on all surfaces (only player in history)
- Steffi won way more titles than Serena
- Steffi has a higher winning % than Serena
- Steffi was both more dominant and more consistent than Serena
- Steffi had a higher peak than Serena
- Steffi had better competition than Serena
- Steffi accomplished more than Serena despite playing for 11 less years
It’s no contest, Graf is the GOAT.
@@PravoslavniVitez No female player has ever elevated the sport as much as Serena. She’s the goat
I was expecting Mad Dog to say something crazy but that was a legit argument. I can dig it. To be honest I don’t know enough about Tennis to have an opinion. Not sure if many ppl on TV do.
If she was a man we’d be talking about her like she was one of the greatest athletes of all time! She deserves her due as one of the greatest athletes male or female of all time!
Flatt 💯💪🤞🏼💯
She can’t be the greatest female athlete if she’s not even the greatest in her own sport
@@PravoslavniVitez you obviously have NO CLUE!
Australian Margaret Court is the greatest Female player winning the most grand slams. So this fool doesn’t mention her in the top 5
because its an US show....... who dont do their research..... Court has the most grand slams..... Serena doesnt even have that record......
I just knew Mad Dog's take before I even hit play. Smh
Mad dog knows what he's talking about. Jay even talked about Serena's upbringing, like that hasnt got anything to do with who's better. Steffi Graff by a mile.
Martina Navratilova the most dominant and had more competition.Serena was way better than Venus as Richard did say she would be.
...so they got rid of Skip Bayless just to bring on a Skip impersonator??...
Williams way out of his element here. To bring basketball into the argument is useless here. Mad dog is right on the money here with everything he said.
J will knows nothing about tennis
He isn't a sports guy he is a basketball guy
Don't care what Doggy says I watched both Navratilova and SW, Williams would smoke Navratilova both in their prime. Williams has a much more dominant game in terms of physicality and speed, Williams played with much more power. I would put SW first with Graf a close 2nd though Graf is my favorite.
It’s gotta be Serena. But you really gotta appreciate Mad Dog’s pure knowledge of the history of multiple sports. Massively impressive. This was a great debate.
his argument was that Serena wouldn't have won as much if she was playing with them but doesn't bring up that they for sure wouldn't have won that many if they had to go up against either of the Williams sister defiantly serena
I genuinely think this isn't a stupid argument from Mad Dog. The women's game has been very up and down while Serena has been playing while in the 70s and 80s there was a consistent group of great players. That being said she still beats any other woman in history at her peak
She still beats any other woman in history at her peak
Please enlighten everyone with the factual evidence you have to prove that. And I want factual evidence not your opinion
I agree with you…with one exception…prime seles…which we actually never witnessed because of the stabbing. If we got to see prime seles go against prime Serena, that would be a helluva game. That said, with all the talent and physical gifts Serena was blessed with, why are we celebrating her career? She wildly underachieved. With all those physical gifts, she never dominated an era like Graf. Shouldn’t she be statistically the GOAT by far and away?
he said the caliber of players was better in the 80's
so they were tougher to beat than players of today
No, she doesn’t. Steffi and Martina had a MUCH higher peak than Serena. Serena was never able to reach the kind of dominance Martina had in 1982-1986 and Steffi had in 1987-1989.
When I saw the headline I figured MadDog was gonna bust out some obscure name from the early 1900s like “Gertrude Beatrice Munroe was the greatest tennis player anyone had ever seen….on the Titanic anyway.”
It’s definitely debatable unless you’re a casual. I would pick Serena but Graff and Martina have excellent arguments.
It's definitely not debatable unless you are a contrary for sport troll or have that DNA that America has cultivated inside their people for a couple centuries.
You don't under tennis. Martina and Graf would both say Serena is better.
@@kindofbluenyc I literally said Serena is better bozo
@@hottakes2633 you said it was debatable. It is not.
@@kindofbluenyc all these things are debatable which is why it can be talked about. He said he would pick Serena but arguments CAN be made for the others.
Jay Will needs to chill out and deal with an opinion he doesn't agree with.
Mad Dog is so wrong. Serena didn’t play anybody he would consider top 10 because she was so dominant. It’s the Michael Jordan argument. People say Jordan didn’t play anybody compared to certain other eras, but it wasn’t that there weren’t great players he was just that much better than everybody else. Same with Tiger Woods. Serena Williams is a top 3 athlete of all time regardless of sport or gender. We can’t in one breath celebrate Tom Brady as the best (my favorite nfl player ever) and his dominance over his career (playing a team game, where there were at least two to three championships that were won because of the defense) but ignore Serena’s dominance over the sport
I feel you but you have to pay attention to what mad dog said, the teams were overall better in Jordans time, and he also said tennis isn't a team sport it's 1v1
@@Dizzy160 he highlighted Bird/Magic teams and Jordan didn’t beat them when they were dominating. He beat Magic but Magic was far from his prime in 91’. We acknowledge Jordan’s prime which is when he started winning championships in the 90s. So Drexler, Barkley, Ewing, Malone, Stockton, Reggie, Payton…these are the individuals that Jordan competed against and suppressed our view of their greatness because of how dominant and great he was. MJ didn’t dominate the 80s when Bird and Magic were dominant
And for me personally I rate players that play 1vs1 sports over people that play team sports and rate people that play sports where you play one side and not the other even lower. Nothing is better than when you have to rely on yourself and no one else to win in terms of greatest athlete of all time.
@@ronaldroberts9555 mj also lucky played with pippen best perimeter defender. Kawhi beat lebron twice in finals.
Are you on crack?!
Who says MJ didn’t play against anyone?!
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
No disrespect but J Will was not equipped for this, Mad Dog may not be a Tennis expert but he's a expert in debating HIS point, I would like to see a Tennis analyst debate this with Mad Dog instead.
Example: MD saying Graff is winning a few Majors against Serena, okay well then how many would Serena win off of her? Graff wouldn't have 22, and if not for an autoimmune disease Venus would have 15+.
"Is it really the advancement of the athlete?" Bro in the 1950's the average US Citizen was like 5'6", now it's 5'9". These facts are easily available.
That argument makes no sense. Every athlete has advanced. It’s not like only Serena advanced. She is still playing against tougher competition because everyone has advanced.
@@christianrapper as the average rises, what is possible at the top increases.
@@christianrapper it’s 1 on 1 competition tho
@@PeePeeMilk what? That just means that Serena competing one on one against a bunch of better athletes. I don’t get your point.
The reason Serena's opponents isn't considered 'all time greats' or top 10 is because the ease of which she made beating them look. She absolutely DOMINATED tennis and made it look easy while doing it.
You do realize the only thing Serena has more of than Garf is Grand slam titles …, Garf had 22 by the time she was 30 and retired… by the time Serena was 30 she had 13-15 I believe.
@@ryanlebard3787 not disputing the fact that 80's players were great. My only point was about serenas opponents and the way she dispatched of them.
Graf and Navratilova dominated more and were a lot more consistent. Both had a higher peak than Williams as well.
This is such terrible logic. Even if Serena consistently beat them, why are you ignoring the fact that when Steffi had proper rivals or Navratilova had Evert they would constantly meet in Slam finals? If Serena is number 1, the number 2 player can only meet Serena in the final. Yet we never had a consistent player make it to the finals. Serena was better than everybody but the number 2 wasn't better than the rest, that's the issue.
Serena is like Bama every year she's the greatest the question is who's gonna stun the world and somehow miraculously beat her
She hasn’t been bama then in like 5 years lol
Not for the last half decade
Navratilova is the GOAT... Better competetion.. And has 59 Gran Slams all together in singles, doubles and mixed doubles.... And way more total titles than Serena.... Serena top 5 but not the GOAT... She is like Shaq of women tennis....
These guys are clueless! Stefi has one less Slam than Serena who has one less than Court. Stefi was #1 for a record 377 weeks, won more matches & tournaments at a greater % than Serena, Won a calendar Slam topped off with an Olympic Gold Medal (no man or woman has accomplished) All of this accomplished playing ten years less than Serena! Serena is getting hyped because she's American and came from a poor Black community which is a big accomplishment, however she falls short of Stefi's incredible career!
Before Serena had a child.. her grand slam final record was ridiculous and 2nd to none...and technically still is. No other player gas come back, from birthing a child, and reached as many slam finals!
Graf got helped by Seles getting stabbed on court which derailed her career
@@garygee3888 Steffi was 6-4 against Seles before her attack!, then 4-1 after her return! Steffi wasn't helped by anyone except herself the G.O.A.T. 🐐