Some People wanted a list of all the games I mentioned, so here you go! Crowsworn tinyurl.com/yckpbjay Nine Sols store.steampowered.com/app/1809540/Nine_Sols/ Biomorph store.steampowered.com/app/1430220/BIOMORPH/ Rune Fencer Illyia store.steampowered.com/app/1104600/Rune_Fencer_Illyia/ Biogun store.steampowered.com/app/1219240/BioGun/ Rebel Transmute store.steampowered.com/app/1191660/Rebel_Transmute/ Nara Facing Fire store.steampowered.com/app/2087320/Nara_Facing_Fire/ Silent Santicado store.steampowered.com/app/1287930/Silent_Santicado/ Shyftrs store.steampowered.com/app/1899120/Shyftrs/ Scrabdackle store.steampowered.com/app/1578720/Scrabdackle/ Exil twitter.com/MysticClockwork
I've been saying this!! It's quite literally the same formula but in 3d, with some minor changes (keys and upgrades are separate objects), and the 1st DS is the best example of this, with all the world being interconnected one way or the other in such a thoughtful way that permits skipping things if you know the ways Aaaah, I love this game
Vin w man the whole video was him saying hollow knight is NOT like dark souls and as someone who has played the game I can say that it isn’t hollow knight is a metroidvania with dark themes
Does it though ? I never played Metroid itself nor Castlevania but I played a few "Metroidvania" such as hollow knight and I always though the main feature of a Metroivania was the road block you can only overcome by getting new abilities and backtracking in an interconnected world. And you know.. that it's a platformer. If it's true that Dark soul only have an interconnected world, it's almost never needed to backtrack (if you play in the right order that is. And even if you didn't, it's minor backtracking). Even after finding the keys for the various locked doors. There is no ability related blockage except if you count locked door (but lock door are in almost every adventure game ever. It's not Metroidvania related). If the only thing they share is an interconnected world then it's pretty slim to say it resemble a metroidvania.
The shade system, as well as the bloodstain system, are based on when you die in Minecraft and have to get your stuff. Both games can therefore be considered Mine-likes
I think when people refer to hollow knight as a souls like they don’t mean the game play is like a dark souls game, but more that the atmosphere and interactions with npcs is like dark souls. Like most of hollow knight’s and dark souls quest lines are completely optional. The stories are also very similar.
Atmosphere of games is simillar because they are from the same actual ganre called gothic. Npcs are also a lot like Zelda 2 and Castlevania npcs Story has some simillarities but the moral and the message are completly opposite
@@applejacks175 Emm yes? That is kinda the point of every story. Dark souls is about accepting the fact time has to move on and you have to change or you will end up misserable and stuck in the past. Hollow Knight has bit less clear moral but litlle there is seems to be about attoning for sins of your predecesors and hope for the future
@@applejacks175 Moral of the story is a synonim for the message of the story. And even if you took most literally you could it would still counts since Dark Souls and Hollow knight teaches you how to act in life.
Hollow knight surely isn’t a soulslike, but playing it feels similar to playing a souls. What most people don’t understand is that it’s only the accidental result of some elements being featured in both games
This reminds me of people saying that the bosses in Kirby and the forgotten land are just like elden ring bosses, Which I find funny considering how easy Kirby games are. The only major similarity is that you have a dodge roll. I guess people made that comparison, since the games came out very close to each other.
While that's wrong, it actually ends up a testament to how poorly defined souls-like is as a genre, because a game that has almost nothing in common with dark souls shares like a half of it's defining features. Dodge roll, bosses that test reaction and learning of patterns, some doors needing keys/switches etc. Meanwhile the game itself is so different to dark souls no one in their right mind would say they are the same genre
i think it's a bit of a logical fallacy to take the individual similarities apart when it's their number and omnipresence that make people compare the two games. I wouldn't describe Hollow knight as a Souls-like but it does gives a lot of similar emotions to the player, which is what art is all about. It's also an easy shortcut to recommend hollow knight to dark souls players and vice versa. In that sense it's way more appropriate to use the term "Souls-like" for Hollow Knight than for Cuphead or Jedi: Fallen Order imo
I mean like I said for me there are only 2 "souls-like" elements out of so many, so even together it doesnt count, but thats just my opinion obviously its not the only or even correct one
@@Pogobro theres a skill in learning when to heal between enemy attacks, great difficulty, story is scattered across various sources, the players equipment is gathered across the world allowing them to create their own build (though dark souls uses the leveling system a bit more in that regard), fighting bosses will usually involve mostly doging attacks and then waiting for openings instead of just spamming out attacks (more true for the harder bosses in hollow knight). To me the biggest difference is hollow knight doesnt have a leveling system like dark souls does since all upgrades in hollow knight need to be earned.
Hollow knight is a lot like dark souls in my book. The first time i played hollow knight I gave up after an hour and deleted it. Two years later after completing dark souls for the first time I picked Hollow Knight and now I wasn't so afraid of dying. I feel Dark souls took a lot from the OG 2D metroid games, and hollow knight did the same. They are bound to be similar.
I just started playing Hollow Knight and fairly early on I kept thinking "This feels so much like a 2D platformer version of Dark Souls". Benches feel like Bonfires, NPCs you find in the world and go back to the hub area, Currency lost on death that you can recover, free form exploration, little initial direction with the story that is slowly told you to via environment, NPC, and item descriptions that you reconstruct yourself. A focus on Boss battles and the part where you are sent to kill specific bosses to unlock the end. Exploring a dead kingdom past its glory days whose inhabitants are affected by a condition (curse vs infection). Hell even Cloth feels similar to Seigmeyer. The whole vibe feels very similar, like Dark Souls is Hollow Knight's past life.
Benches are just save rooms, it exists in all metroidvania before dark souls and hollow knight, the difference is that instead a S marking in the map, it's a bench, NPCs going to the Hub area isn't also exclusive to souls games, "free exploration" and initial direction with story tha is slowly told you via environment is basically super metroid, the only true souls mechanic is the currency lost and recover.
I used to hear about people saying hollow knight is like a 2d dark souls but after playing salt and sanctuary and hollow knight that's just not the truth. The game could be inspired and influenced by it but hollow knight is definitely it's own game. It leans much more towards the metroidvania style than it does the dark souls style, and there are definitely games you could go to if you want the dark souls feeling in a 2D game. The problem with comparing everything to dark souls is it makes finding more genuine experiences closely related to dark souls tough.
i think the main source of the fallacy is just from the two games both having gothic themes. beyond that, there’s not much to tie the two games together.
@@goldenhorse4823 It's not just the architecture, it's the ideological themes as well. Dark Souls and Hollow Knight both feature old, powerful, *grand* kingdoms and empires, once ruled by beings who were as gods to the common folk, now brought low by a super-natural disease whose causes are poorly understood or combated. Both games feature nameless, unimportant protagonists who rise beyond their insignificant origins to become true monsters, slaying all that stands before them and taking the strength of their enemies for their own. They also share a minimalistic style of storytelling, with themes of mystery and exploration, ] a brutal, unforgiving playstyle with minimal handholding, and feature the forces of light and darkness being locked in unending combat. Taken all together, and it's not hard to see why people might make the comparison, though I agree that the term Souls-borne is used far too freely nowadays, and probably doesn't apply to Hollow Knight.
@@goldenhorse4823 but did you know that gothic architecture is a souls like? dont belive me just look at the architecture and souls games. They look so much alike
I'd say its cause the human build regains sanity points when categorizing things. If you pick up the autistic skill at the beginning of the game u gain even more sanity and an attack buff when putting things into folders and tags
Depends on what you understand as “Soulslike”. You play as voiceless character of no renown in a world on brink of ruin with the “good” god being dead. your goal is to save the the kingdom. There is a plague that causes people to go insane and become undead. Tragedy is one of the main themes. Although the main goal seems noble the main characters can be considered good or bad depending on the perspective. Every character quest is optional. After death you loose all your money (the comparison with Zelda is not to far off but it is closer to DS as in DS you use your “exp points” as money and the comparison with Minecraft is to far off because in MC you loose all of your items and exp and they may disappear with time or fire) and you can reclaim it back if you can get back to the place of your death without dying. The Boss fights and exploration are one of the most important things in the game. So for me it is a “Soulslike” game but that doesn’t mean that HK is a cheap knockoff and it’s not unique or that it’s not beautiful, just that it is similar to another good game.)
I personally would never call hollowknight a soulslike but to me, the world and vibes feels very simmilar and the shared mechanics between the games makes it feels very "soulsy".
The world/setting kinda, there are a lot of areas that feels like it's inspired by the same setting as Dark Souls (city of tears, white palace, crossroads) and the way the story is told is also not 100% straight forward. Though HK also has visuals and areas that strongly detract from the chalked-out atmosphere of dark souls (greenpath, hive, mist canyon, crystal peak, etc) and the story and npc dialogue is far more legible than any dark souls game (it doesn't rely on item descriptions thank god). Gameplay-wise the only shared mechanic they have is the shade/bloodstain system and that was also done by MINECRAFT. It's a metroidvania through and through.
Great video! What I really like about Hollow Knight is it non-linear approach to Metroidvenia, which is unfortunately too rare for a genre that one of it's biggest selling point is exploration (Looking at you, Axiom Verge)!
@@erpillar Game is fine. The main problem I had with it is that every time you get a new upgrade - there is only one true path that opens to you. But, unless you are using a walkthrough, you gonna spend a lot of time exploring and reaching a lot of dead-ends, which required upgrades that you currently don't have, to find that one specific path that become accessible! In short: it's linear, but not in a direct way. (another problem worthy of mention is: Their “unique” way of fast traveling - a long horizontal lift)
@@erpillar game is decent, boss fights are full disclosure just badly designed, and the combat is kind of pointless. But its got a banger soundtrack and atmosphere
Hollow knight is linear though? Like you only have to follow a certain path to get through the game (Get the vengeful spirit, get the dash, get mantis claw) etc in that order
Interesting video. My problem with it is the very first assumption - that Soulslike should have its categorization derived from features in Dark Souls. While that certainly was true for the first games inspired by it, it simply isn't healthy for the development of a genre. Just like Roguelike games doesn't have to be a 1:1 copy of Rogue so should Soulslikes not have to be for Dark Souls. Genres need to evolve with what is best for the genre not necessarily the root game. Now certainly there are features that are pretty non-negotiable as with Roguelike, but the name really should just be treated as "the name for that genre" and not be hung up on the root game that much, because it will harm the development of the genre if we are - this has happened to many genres in the past that took quite a while to shake the strict association with the root game. Certainly a discussion should be had of what the core & secondary features are, but that's a different point.
Ok but you have to accept that the definition of a soulslike should not be expanded to “game that is hard.” All roguelikes are still like rogue in that when you die/fail you lose ALL progress and start from the very beginning. Some roguelikes bent the rule a bit by only making you lose *some* progress but it’s not so great a difference that it makes the game unrecognizable as a roguelike. All games in that genre share a core gameplay mechanic that they were designed around. What’s the core gameplay mechanic that Hollow Knight, Dark Souls, and Cuphead all share that they were designed around.
@@yeahkeen2905 Never said that, I literally said there are non-negotiable features and there should be a discussion about what those are but that it's a different point from this video.
@@yeahkeen2905 well if we exclude cuphead from that list we have punishable deaths, focus on learning a bosses patterns other you will be stomped, finding items/equipment around the world that the player can customise their loadout with, and theres also a decent thing about timing your healing properly which some games dont have. On top of that both have a big story that is given by snippets or lore from various sources and also have dark themes.
@@alexgraham4196 punishable deaths exist in any game that is hard, learning boss patterns is something you do in any game that is hard, finding items that you customize your load out with is something that exists in like 80% of all games. Are these seriously your comparisons? Do you think that Cuphead doesn’t punish deaths, require you learn boss patterns, or have you find/buy items to customize your load out?
@@dondashall if it’s a different point from the video then there’s not much point in making it as a response to the video. The video is about whether Hollow Knight should be considered a soulslike.
I think there is a recursive aspect to how you approach the game... You rest at a bench, you go out with limited healing, you face some challenges and then a boss. You'll probably do it over and over until you're able to avoid most damage. This central loop is similar, and I guess that's why people call HK a soulslikey game.
Not really. That's what you do in Shantae, is Shantae a soulslike? You go to a save point, you have limited heals, you fight the boss, die, go back to the save point and repeat until you have the pattern down. That's not a soulslike, that's just normal gameplay loop for platformers.
@@BlackSabbath628 Is Shantae particularly hard? I consider this loop the "soulslike" loop when it satisfies two conditions: mistakes are heavily punished, so there is incentive to playing the section perfectly, and you risk losing progress if you die. Also, it helps if the resting points are somewhat spaced out, which they are in HK. I really think of Hollow Knight as a game more in the soulslike vein than most metroidvanias. It reminds me of Bloodborne in some ways.
I guess almost every metroid game is a souls like then! You could throw in many other indie metroidvanias too. Things like la-mulana, environnemental station alpha...
The whole souls-like genre was a stupid idea in the first place. No one can actually decide if a game is a souls-like unless it's just a blatant ripoff, unlike metroidvania having actually clear game structure
There are some characteristics that someone could argue are specific,or much more common,to Souls like games.Examples are: a marked increase in difficulty compared to other,similar games, a mysterious world mostly explored through character conversations and item descriptions, death being rather common and robbing you of a resource that is vital for purchases and upgrades, leaving a residue of yourself on death that you can interact with to reclaim your resources,a refillable consumable that restores health etc. Hollow Knight checks out all those things,while Metroid doesn't. However, it also works the other way around,with Souls like games having characteristics that were originally mostly found in metroidvanias,like opening shortcuts,bonfires acting like save points and verticality used more extensively compared to a linear world. In my opinion,both genres share a lot of themes so a game could easily be both,as is the case with Hollow Knight.
@@aureateseigneur5317 you collect power ups that let you clear different locks to progress. This is a defining feature almost no other genre has, and its pretty clear the game is a metroidvania when you see it. Souls-like on the other hand, doesn't really have that. What defines souls-like as a genre? Difficulty? A move that gives invincibility frames? Locked doors that need a switch or a key to open? An interconnected world? These are all things basically any other game can have, and if a game only has a few of these features very common across the industry, then it doesn't make it a certain genre, and if it has all of those, by that point it's just a dark souls clone
@@Reinoiro Actually tons of games revolve around collecting powerups to clear different locks to progress. What defines a Metroidvania? RPG mechanics? Loot? An open world? Locked doors? Lots of games across multiple genres have this. Like you literally just described a Zelda game in the loosest of terms. "Souls-Likes" are just Open World 3D RPGs. That's all they are. "Metroidvanias" are just open world 2D Adventure games. Nothing defines Souls-Like as a genre because it isnt a genre. Im literally arguing neither of these terms are actual genres. Souls-Like isnt a genre. Metroidvania isnt a genre. Its a portmanteau of two specific games people use to extremely loosly describe a shit load of games that are almost nothing like those two games.
@@aureateseigneur5317 The fact that souls likes are a flawed thing to make into a genre is the thing im arguing for, but i still believe metroidvanias are defined and unique enough to be a genre. No, basic locks and keys don't make for a metroidvania. It's unique abilities and unique obstacles built around them that serve as such, not just basic keys and locks which are common, and there are very few games that have this exact power up and lock system that are not straight up metroidvanias, zelda is more of an exception. Also, metroidvanias are about the opposite of traditional RPGs, most of them never even use numbers, same with open world games, they are also basically the opposite of a metroidvania. Game structure where you collect power ups and clear obstacles is unique enough for a game to be called a metroidvania. While it is true that it's less defined than something like a first person shooter or a rogue-like/lite, it's also hard NOT to call a game like hollow knight or any metroid a metroidvania, because they are distinct enough from others to get that sort of separation. Like, give 3 examples of a franchise or game that has the metroid power up system that is not considered a metroidvania, because from the top of my mind the only one that really comes up is zelda
What he is missing is that it all do this together makes it resemble a should like, there were many times plying through elden ring that my brain connecting to hollow knight because they have a similar atmosphere, combat (with the heavy focus on dodging and timing, and that heavy emphasis on “you will die but over and over and over”. I’m a fan of dark souls and hollow knight and i like them for similar reasons, a punishing game with epic fights in a dreary, decrepit, weird and magical medieval world.
@@Pogobro beside the obvious bug world,2d vs 3d world, and lack of rpg elements they have a lot of similarities and are very similar feeling in vibe and fighting style. They are not the same but have a large overlap of features we can’t just act like don’t exist.
@@TheFlashHawk Fighting sytles? If you mean combat then no. Hollow Knight in combat is fast and reponsive with much more movement and with totally different healing and spell systems. Dark souls is slow and weighty with much more build veriety. Bosses from Hollow Knigt have much less in common with Dark Souls but with Castlevania and other older games with bosses like Galion being an omage to Death from Castlevania aria of Sorrow and Grimm to Dracula, No eyes as refference to Medusa heads, Ummu as Metroid from Metroid. Bosses also attack differently with lower wind up animations and often use their bodies to hit you since unlike dark souls their body is a hurtbox. Closest to a dark souls boss you would get would be Hollow Knight and pure vessel, False Knight, Meaybe watcher knights and nailmasters while you have bosses like Radiance, Grimm, Marmu, Galliot, Dung defender, nosk and basicaly everyone else that fight nothing like a Dark souls boss Visualy you could say they are kinda simillar at places but most gothic medival games look simillar and the atmosphere you mention is not from Dark Souls but Angel's Egg. Hollow Knight at best gives a nod or two to Bloodborne and Dark Souls 1
@@TheFlashHawk “besides the entire aesthetic of both games and the literal core genre that Dark Souls is and Hollow Knight isn’t, Hollow Knight and Dark Souls are actually very similar” Also the combat in Hollow Knight and Dark Souls is nothing alike.
Dark souls and hollow knight will always be hand in hand for me personally. I started out with DS3 and had to put the game down because I kept getting stuck. It was only after coming back later and completing hollow knight that I was able to approach the game with the right mentality to get through it. YMMV
it doesnt really add anything gameplay wise (lore wise it is important) and in a game about exploring it forces people to backtrack to where they died before they can try a different path
I been having this problem with rogue likes, games can take specific elements from the genre and make something that feels like for example The binding of Isaac but isn't rogue like. With soulslike game is the same, is like there's a spectrum of elements that makes you say "that's like darksouls". So yeah, the game feels soulslike-ish, the atmosphere, the dialogue, the way the story is conveyed. Personally I call it a get-lost-vania. The cuphead and enter to the gungeon comparisons has me confused though. Also the culture around naming genres is kinda strange, like jazz fusion Vs jazz rock, same thing overall, but jazz fusion came before and nowadays it has a wider definition for all mixture of genres with jazz.
I tried to make this critique as constructive as possible. People don’t call hollowknight a souls like because “wAhH iTs haRd so iT haS to Be OnE”. People call it that because it’s retrieval mechanic, Money system, Healing, and it’s methodical Combat. I’ll admit that a lot of the mechanics have their roots in Metroid-Vanias, because dark souls is one aswell. It’s a useful term that people use because it works, and trying ,in vain, to refute these claims in such a quick, matter-of-fact way makes it seem like you don’t know much about soullikes or the history of games, which I assume to be false. Your editing is good though.
1:44 I'd guess, in an ample sense a souls-like is a game with punishing combat that places a lot of importance in a specific dodge roll mechanic. That is, for most attacks, you dodge roll in such a way that if the attack touches you while rolling you don't take any damage from it. That way, I wouldn't classify monster hunter, Risk of Rain 2 and sifu as souls-like but I would classify Dead Cells as one.
Gothy atmosphere, vague yet deep story, difficult for many, interconnected world, great bosses, and you have to go back to where you died to get your stuff. I understand where people are coming from, but I also think they're two entirely different beasts. People also say Dark Souls is a metroidvania, so who knows if anything means anything by now. This is coming from someone who would put DS1 and Hollow Knight as my top two favorite games.
@@Pogobro Dark souls invented/revolutionized environmental Storytelling in fantasy games no other has and combine with its unique difficulty. Most soulslike games Inclusive Hollow Knight took Dark Souls as inspiration.
Your points are valid but I still believe it can be considered souls like. Cause while stuff like just being difficult, having a dark/Sombrr ambiance, convoluted story narrative and/or depressing/epic music doesn't necessarily make a game a dark souls like- Having a combination of all of these does. "Not every game that's hard is a souls like" true and that point goes for all of the key dark souls traits. But you gotta look to all the games traits as a whole not individually. Hollow Knight has way too many similar traits to not be considered a souls like AND a Metroid Vania. Cause at the end of the day- Being souls like or meteoidvania doesn't mean you have to be a literal carbon copy of these games. HK is a hybrid so it fits both categories. Good video tho!
I thought devs had some inspirations from the first dark souls but knowing that only one of them played bloodborne I don't think that was the case. Although as a big dark souls fan, I do think that hollow knight perfectly catches the feeling of first dark souls and only the first one. Always discovering something new, going from bench to bench, opening shortcuts, making builds(although at the end it's always quickslash, strength, mark of pride/shaman stone and fillers), deep obscure lore and the battle mechanic (for some reason) remind me of my playthrough of dark souls I think soulslike term is a nothing burger right now and it should really die out since what made dark souls such a good game are million different reasons that were well made, from lore to gameplay. When people use it, you can't tell what specific part of dark souls' features it has. Maybe it's the difficulty, maybe it's deep lore, maybe its one single NPC that just snuck a cheeky reference or the guy never played dark souls and just wanted to throw that in. It means nothing, LITERALLY on a side note, I just noticed that if we switch names dark souls and hollow knight, it would fitting for both games lol
I think the reason people find it similar to Dark Souls is having to go to where you died to get a currency back, as well as the lore being defined but cryptic. If I remember, the devs worked on the art and gameplay first, and then invented the lore around that, rather than the other way around.
I think that we must compare the gameplay first, and plot/lore similarities should go only after we labeled the game soluls-like to check if it is a full souls-clone. First, the infamous save and respawn system. This is the main feature of souls games which are all about dying a lot but getting things done. It could be divided to three parts: bonfires, estus flasks and bloodstains. 1) Bonfire checkpoints have two key details. First, they don't actually save your progress, at least, not all of it: if you collect an item or beat a boss and die, they will remain collected and beaten. Though I'm not familiar with a lot checkpoint-based save systems and having to backtrack after any significant action can be too obviously annoying (but there are games which require this). Second, bonfires restore your character upon saving, but respawn all common enemies. Some checkpoints don't restore, others don't respawn enemies, but in Dark Souls if you decide to backtrack and heal, you have to start the area all over except for the aforementioned permanent things and unless you do it, no enemy would respawn. 2) Estus flasks are consumables, usually healing, which are restored for free, but only upon visiting a bonfire-checkpoint. This way the game chains you to them even more since you have a limit on how much you can do before respawning all the enemies. Of course there can be variations like them being a usual consumable and bonfire only refilling the chararacter's inventory, like blood vials and bullets in Bloodborne or spirit emblems in Sekiro, but let's not talk about that (because it's bad). 3) Bloodstains are punishment for not trying the same thing over and over, since you lose something valuable where you die and can't just go somewhere else to grind and return stronger. Or you can, but at best you're going to lose the money you earned before that death if you die again, and at worst you will lose something completely irretrievable without collecting the stain, like mana cap in Hollow Knight. So now about combat. It can vary, it varies even in FromSoftware's games despite their love for copying themselves, but since souls-like is about dying a lot, it must also fit that idea. A souls-like combat would never be about gloriously and awesomely defeating hordes of enemies like in God of War or Devil May Cry. It will never allow face-tanking and button-mashing. It should not be won by some trickery or numbers. Souls-like games aim for making you memorize every single move of every single enemy which requires, you're right, dying over and over. What of these can be said about Hollow Knight (everything, but some will be wrong)? It definetely has bonfire checkpoints and bloodstain in one of its worst forms. But it doesn't have estus flasks. And its combat is surely about learning attacks by dying to them, but I'm not sure if there should be something more specific than that formula.
No, judging from things like the comments section of this video and threads on reddit and 4chan, it's way more than just game "journalists" throwing the word at anything that's even somewhat hard and has a dark atmosphere.
Fr I hate it when people call every game a souls like. I’m a big fan of souls and for me it just shows that people don’t understand that dark souls is more than just difficulty and dodge roll. It completely cuts down everything that FromSoft made into: difficult game where you dodge and manage stamina. This is doing disservice both to the soulslike game and dark souls itself.
I think Jedi fallen order could be considered a souls because it has bonfires in the form of meditation points and flasks in the form of stim canisters and a parry system similar to sekiro but I still think it’s a 50/50 if it is or not
When it comes to video game genre definitions you either can be expansive or narrow. FPS includes many, many games that all feel extremely different to play. Halo and Call of Duty are FPS's but do it in different ways. The benefits of this expansive definition is that you won't run into a situation similar to calling Cuphead a soulslike. I tend to prefer an expansive definition over a narrow definition because what matters isn't getting the exact definition but a vibe that narrow definitions don't offer. Most times I try to describe a game with a paragraph and not a simple word. Games are complex and no single word can describe a game accurately.
Does anyone really call Cuphead a soulslike? I remember one journalist calling it like that back in 2017 and everyone repeating after him as a way to mock video game journalism, but that's it.
Very odd way of thinking from you. You identified alot of things that people use as evidence and showed that either dark souls didn't do it first or that lots of games did it. Not one thing makes hollow knight a souls-like. What makes hollow knight a souls like is the fact that such a long list exists that we can point to similarity. The fact that you pointed out, story, exploration, boss difficulty, benches, healing etc. Just because dark souls didn't do something first or unique doesn't mean the mixes don't look somewhat similar. That's like saying one painting isn't inspired by another because the colour green existed on trees first.
We are talking about a game in an interconnected world in which you explore a kingdom long dead to a poorly understood curse with few survivors. Those effected by the curse become mindless husks attacking on sight. The protagonist is working towards a goal they do not understand until the end to potentially sacrifice themselves. The gameplay involves bossfights, death mechanics, checkpoints, finding incremental upgrades, etc. This description is for both games.
@@Daniel-ib5nt Basically what the video failed to mention was that dark souls 1 was a 3d metroidvania. On top of that Hollow Knight shares it's main gameplay loop, gothic atmosphere, and vague storytelling, with dark souls. He says that Hollow Knight is more like Sekiro than it is like Dark Souls, and I sorta agree, but Dark Souls in many ways is more like Hollow Knight than Sekiro, so...
@@Daniel-ib5nt no it’s not. Do you think any game inspired by old school Zelda are soulslikes? If anything that would make them all “Zeldalikes” which is equally ridiculous.
@@yeahkeen2905 Whats ridiculous about that? Its practical to be able to communicate that a game shares similar design principles with another game you like, its a compliment for the game usually. It doesnt have to be directly influenced by the exact game, its just a way to say "If you liked game A, you will probably like B too." I refrain from using "Zelda Like" for many games like Dark Souls and Hollow Knight for the reason that Zelda games are less consistent with their formula. Both games are sharing a lot of design concepts with Zelda 1 for example, but way less with some of the others, so the comparison would need much more nuances that dont fit in a genre name.
What are you saying. It is a perfect system. I love watching Sopranos since I am a big GodFatherlike fan. I also really enjoy Karate kid because I am also a Rockylike fan
if you are talking about "finding the 3 things to open the path to the ending" thats a trope that has been in games since they were invented, dark souls did not invent nor even popularize it
@@Pogobro Of course not, but im not saying that either. Someone might take inspiration in Hollow Knight's shade system not knowing about Dark Soul's Retrieval. It's not about who made what first, it's about where the ideas are taken. I think Dark Souls is a pretty big inspiration for what Hollow Knight is
What pisses me off the most is when people call hollow knight souls clone and say it's bad because it's not so much like dark souls, dude it's not even supposed to be a souls like don't treat it like one, it doesn't have rpg system or 5 thousand unbalanced builds because it doesn't need to
Dark Souls fans just don't play video games so everything to them is a Soulslike. I could bet that a large portion of them hasn't even played Dark Souls and just watched a crappy "video essay" about it
I don't get why some Hollow Knight fans get so hurt when people compare it with souls games when HK has obviously several elements very similar to them. But yeah, it's obvious that Hollow Knight is predominantly and foremost a metroidvania. Speaking for myself, it's also a game that made me appreciate several of the souls mechanics and style of storytelling that I wasn't very fond beforehand. And also made me want to give them another try. I wouldn't have finally actually tried to beat the souls games (including bloodborn, Elden Ring and etc) if it wasn't for Hollow Knight.
Hollow Knight is neither a Metroidvania nor is it a Souls-like. It's a Souls-like Metroidvania. It has a lot of the formula of a Metroidvania with the awful Bloodstain/XP-loss mechanic of Dark Souls. If we're willing to be extra pedantic one could call Dark Souls a 3D Metroidvania Zelda like. Something one simply has to accept is genre labels (especially pertaining to games) are useless and one can keep going down the rabbit hole of less than helpful labels if one wants. Lest one forget the incredibly "helpful" label: "Action Adventure games" which tells you literally nothing.
i haven't watched the video fully yet, but what i think is: calling HK souls-like is like calling a puzzle game FPS shooter just because in two places in the game you need to use an old flintlock pistol to shoot a chandelier or something to open a passage. Like, it's just a small little mechanic (granted, very much essential to speedruns of the game, but 1 small mechanic nontheless) I'm, of course, referring to our shade that holds our geo.
Full discloser, I consider myself a metroidvania fan, not a soulslike fan. I don't even like most soulslikes. Plus, genres exist to sell games... not for actual game scholars to debate the influence of games on each other. And yeah, it's a double edged sword that sometimes help says, sometimes hurt sales because you could associate them with a game that you dislike. Also mad respect to you, I agree with a lot of things you said too, just not the full picture. But I think Hollow Knight should count as a soulslike. It would be one of the only ones I do like. Here's my humble opinion on why I disagree with you. You didn't present a solid standard. It's not a tangible standard to say a souls like is merely whatever reminds me of dark souls. You need actual parameters like: RPG, Mele Combat, Soul-Based Economy and upgrading, Punishing Death systems, Open World, in a post-apocalyptic, grim medieval setting, with a focus on really tough enemies and boss fights. Now, with that definition, the circle of things that would fit would shrink massively! Which other genre do you know of that has SO MANY parameters? Genres usually take 2-3 parameters from the games they are based on. When you were listing Hollow Knight similar games, you even dropped a topped down view on us for god sakes! So you have a selective standard! My point is, Hollow Knight fits the bill in like half the things that define a souls like. Plus are you really telling me Sekiro is not a souls like? Because if so, then yeah... your definition of a soulslike is really too strict. You're defining a carbon copy of souls games as the genre at that point...
because thats what a soulslike is tho, Salt and sanctuary is a carbon copy of dark souls, hence why its called a soulslike instead of belonging to any other genre. Same with lords of the fallen. Like if you wanted to say Hollow Knight has souls like elements, I would agree. But calling it a soulslike is just wrong when it has so many differences
@@Pogobro Mad respect to you dude for making the video, and for standing by your word. I guess the crux of our argument, is where you draw the line! Your line is at a carbon copy, my line is at having like 3-4 of the souls like elements. At the end of the day, my understanding is that all genres are a lot more feeling based than parameter based. Like Metroid and Castelvania don't feel exactly the same either, but we think they both belong to a mutual genre.
The same thing has been happening with the term roguelike used to label any game with permadeath for as long as I can remember when even a pretty primitive game like Rogue is so much deeper. May as well call any shooter a CoD like or any fantasy adventure game Skyrim like at this point.
Plants vs zombies is souls like Zombie (basically husk) Lack of obvious story telling Dark fantasy (zombie) Has permanent upgrades Has boss fights to lock progression (night 10s and zomboss) Difficult (subjective) Punishing (lose = start over the night)
Every time i've used the soulslike to describe Hk is when i wanted to talk about the map being conected in a "similar way" to DS, but i kinda realise the term souls like is being used in a really wide range and only to compare one or two of the mechanics of the game, for example when people say cuphead is soulslike usually is because of the difficulty and iconic bosses, i can agree in the bosses but not in the difficulty since cuphead has options of difficulty.
My brother in Christ, HOLLOW KNIGHT IS A SOULSLIKE. Devs aren't hiding the fact that they took some mechanics from ds. Checkpoint, punishment for death, lore elements, story telling (lore telling). Even reliquaries are just *something* souls that you can't convert into regular souls from your inventory
they didn't they said in interview that they didn't play dark souls nor any fromsoftware title unlike the b/tch in the video above mentioened they just took little from zelda 2 and just that From software didn't invent Checkpoint, punishment for death, lore elements, story telling (lore telling) it is just your fanBOI character that made it to your self sounds like that "Even reliquaries are just *something* souls" they are not again this is just you who see everything in the industry "sOUls lIKe"
-Good video. 👍 - 2:10 okay someone didn't play in give me god of war mode lmao. - at first glance the title of the video confused me because this game literally has the souls like tag in steam and is one of the first things you find if you go into the souls like category 😅
@@obsessionsofthevoid nah, Dead Cells is a roguelike, it has very slight metroid inspirations, like upgrades, but its not a set map nor is there any backtracking, and exploration is randomised.
I think the most fundamental flaw with this video is that you refute every single one of the reasons, without ever looking at the big picture. Hollow knight isn’t a souls like because it’s hard, or because it has indirect story telling, most of which you gain an understanding by reading dialogue and in-menu descriptions or because it is about a ruined kingdom, or because this ruined kingdom was brought down by a “living dead” disease, or because the kingdom was ruled by gods, or because it’s a metroidvania (which dark souls is), or because it has a dark aesthetic, or because it has multiple endings, the main one which you merely reinstate the status quo by holding back the destruction of the world temporarily, or because it has the same death system or because the main character is unimportant, one example of a large group of not usually very powerful beings, or because the main focus of the story is not the current events, but the lore of the world before the events of the game. It is a souls like because of ALL OF THAT combined. Of course none of these reasons make it a souls like, and they can all be refuted individually, but together, the case is a lot stronger than you make it seem in the video.
By the same approach, I could even argue dark souls 2 isn’t a souls like. Why do you think it is? just because it’s difficult? difficult games have existed before dark souls. Just before it’s and RPG? RPG games have existed before dark souls. Just because it has indirect storytelling? Just because it’s melee focused? Just because it has the same death system? Just because it’s an RPG? Just because it has a similar story? Just because it’s the same death system? Just because it’s combat is focused on dodging and blocking? Just because it’s a 3d action game? Just because it has indirect storytelling, with a focus on lore? … do you see how I could refute any and all of these reasons alone? do you see how it’s their combination that makes these games alike, not any one of them?
Yea that is not how it works. Reason why Dark Souls 2 would be a souls like even if you changed the name is because it has more in common than different than Dark Souls 1. It has simillar level up system, way you equip and use weapons, roll mechanics, boss design, combat flow with weighty attack and roll reliance, explorration, healing potion mechanic and Ds2 in terms of differeating itslef only has healing gems that are simillar to demon souls, stones to open doors and bonfefire teleportation at start. Hollow Knight at the other hand has very few actual simillarities like the Shade and the and some of the story which is not dark souls exclusive. The differences tho are much bigger. Hollow Knight is fast, there is no roll, there is only one weapon, there is no bonfire teleport, there is no blocking(except if you use that one charm), it has plattforming, totally different way you level up, you gain movement upgrades, it is an metroidvania( which dark souls is not), has totally different healing and spell system.
Mf is the bosses hard and a road block? Yes do you have a currency that works everywhere in the world? Yes do you have the chance of losing the currency by dieing Yes does the monsters respawn unless you go to a resting point no? then what the f@?$ are we discussing hollow knight is a infusion of metroitvania and souls like
Mf all of those features are not unqiue to souls like at all. The only mechanic that is, is shade holding geo, the rest is literally just normal videogame mechanics. Calling a game some genre because of a few inspirations is straight lunacy
you said playing lords of the fallen feels like playing darksouls and thats why its a souls like but it actully feels like playing darksouls2 sotfs but everything was covered in honey, weighed as much of a feather but took the same streangth to use or swing as a 1000lb weight on the end of a stick
It’s definitely a soulslike in the sense that when you die in the game you have to go back and get essential resources. when you die after that they disappear. it’s not speaking in the sense that it’s matching gameplay. same way rogue likes aren’t actually like rogue. and that the death system is matched. also- the resting points are also there. for it to be a soulslike it doesn’t have to match demons souls (where the term comes from)
Resting points? The checkpoints that exist in, I’d wager, 90% of all games? That’s what makes Hollow Knight a soulslike? Plus one relatively minor mechanic?
The resting points in hollow knight are way more similar to most metroidvania save points than bonfires, in bonfires you recover all your healing itens and are able to upgrade your character and teleport to other bonfires, while in a generic Metroidvania save points you only recover your hp and save your game
@@yeahkeen2905 it’s not ab the fact that they are resting points. but the fact that that’s not only where you have a checkpoint and actually can gain all of your health back. much more similar to FS games than every other metroid-vania
@@atriz267 you get your health back at checkpoints in other metroidvania games what are you talking about? You think Dark Souls invented healing at a checkpoint?
It would be nice if you added links to the games you showed. I couldn't figure out the name is the one you showed last and it looks really interesting!
@@Ovnidemon Pogobro pinned a message with all of the links to the games he showed there. The one you're looking for is called Scrabdackle. It's also easy to search up on Steam (My job as a Scrab-fan has now been accomplished. And I shall vanish into the night once more...)
9:24 This is exactly the reason why I avoided playing Hollow Knight for so long cuz it was called a souls like and I don't like Souls likes but since I picked it up I have been playing it for the last month Non-Stop and it's one of my top five favorite games
I have this theory that Hollow Knight is actually inspired by Shovel Knight in many ways. Just think about it: -Hollow Knight has little puddles of geo to destroy, which are very similar to the puddles of gold in Shovel Knight -When you die, you lose all you cash, and if you die before retrieving it, you lose it for good, like Shovel Knight -There's a pogo mechanic in Hollow Knight that really resembles Shovel Knight What I'm trying to say is that some of the mechanics from Hollow Knight that people attribute to Dark Souls might have actually came from Shovel Knight instead. But maybe I'm wrong and they got the pogo mechanic from Ducktales or something.
Got it: Hollow Knight is a SekiroLike! This all debate reminds me of the fact that there is no scientific definition of vegetable and fish and it is not possible to make one that is both not too specific that it starts to lose things we would like to be called vegetables or fish, or start to become so big that everything is a vegetables and humans are fish. Resident evil is darksouls. Half Life is darksouls. Carmageddon is darksouls. Baldur's gate is darksouls. Math is darksouls.
Idk, honestly the video seems to be arguing that the Soulslike genre isn't real, or that a game has to be nearly identical to DS/use it as the only form of inspiration to qualify as Soulslike, both of which are assumptions I wouldn't agree with. Instead, I think we should use a more standard, less limiting definition of the genre. Typically, I've seen Soulslikes defined as: -Having high levels of dexterity-based difficulty and punishing boss battles (often with laborious run backs) the goal being player improvement through expected, repeated deaths -An emphasis on environmental storytelling superseding dialogue or narrative storytelling -A dark fantasy/medieval/gothic setting -Checkpoints that heal the player, function as warp points, and function as a location to level up/equip permanent upgrades -A mechanic that allows players to recover lost assets if they can make it back to the location in the world they died. -An interconnected, metroidvania-like world -An emphasis on multiple playthroughs to fully experience the game -Multiple endings based on player performance/choices -Some form of PvP that allows players to appear in/leave messages in other players' game world -RPG elements such as stats and equipment customization If we accept that a game can be a Soulslike without having to copy every single aspect from this list, we can see that Hollow Knight hits 7/10 of these criteria, making it pretty self-evidently a Soulslike. I think you'd have a much better time arguing that calling Cuphead a Soulslike is a cop out, because unlike Hollow Knight it hits almost none of these criteria outside of being difficult.
what have you mentioned was there in the industry and even some of them in the real life before even Miyashit born and got out from his father balls just say that you can't see no difference because you are a fanBOI
Some People wanted a list of all the games I mentioned, so here you go!
Crowsworn tinyurl.com/yckpbjay
Nine Sols store.steampowered.com/app/1809540/Nine_Sols/
Biomorph store.steampowered.com/app/1430220/BIOMORPH/
Rune Fencer Illyia store.steampowered.com/app/1104600/Rune_Fencer_Illyia/
Biogun store.steampowered.com/app/1219240/BioGun/
Rebel Transmute store.steampowered.com/app/1191660/Rebel_Transmute/
Nara Facing Fire store.steampowered.com/app/2087320/Nara_Facing_Fire/
Silent Santicado store.steampowered.com/app/1287930/Silent_Santicado/
Shyftrs store.steampowered.com/app/1899120/Shyftrs/
Scrabdackle store.steampowered.com/app/1578720/Scrabdackle/
Exil twitter.com/MysticClockwork
this is only 10% of all the games coming out somewhat inspired by hollow knight
thank u bro
A soulslike is when you die in a game, and the more you die the soulslikier it is
Until you beat hollow knight on Steel soul so it's no longer a soulslike😌
Steel Soul and Godmaster mode just turn it into Schrodinger's Soulslike.
Nope. You're getting Souls confused with Spelunky.
Rain World is the ultimate soulslike then?
@@waaaaaaah I think Celeste is the soulsiest game I’ve ever played
I think the one thing this video is missing is that its actually dark souls that resembles a metroidvania in a lot of ways
soulvania
I've been saying this!!
It's quite literally the same formula but in 3d, with some minor changes (keys and upgrades are separate objects), and the 1st DS is the best example of this, with all the world being interconnected one way or the other in such a thoughtful way that permits skipping things if you know the ways
Aaaah, I love this game
Vin w man the whole video was him saying hollow knight is NOT like dark souls and as someone who has played the game I can say that it isn’t hollow knight is a metroidvania with dark themes
Does it though ? I never played Metroid itself nor Castlevania but I played a few "Metroidvania" such as hollow knight and I always though the main feature of a Metroivania was the road block you can only overcome by getting new abilities and backtracking in an interconnected world. And you know.. that it's a platformer. If it's true that Dark soul only have an interconnected world, it's almost never needed to backtrack (if you play in the right order that is. And even if you didn't, it's minor backtracking). Even after finding the keys for the various locked doors. There is no ability related blockage except if you count locked door (but lock door are in almost every adventure game ever. It's not Metroidvania related).
If the only thing they share is an interconnected world then it's pretty slim to say it resemble a metroidvania.
Except its not like Dark Souls because it has 0 RPG mechanics or builds a key feature of a Souls game.
The shade system, as well as the bloodstain system, are based on when you die in Minecraft and have to get your stuff. Both games can therefore be considered Mine-likes
best explanation yet, video is void
@@PogobroHornet is void confirmed
@@The_Apex_Of_Predators hornet is alex confirmed
God damn they're both officially minecraft-likes now.
Demons souls was released before Minecraft
Saying Hollow Knight is a Soulslike is like saying Dark Souls is a "Berserklike" or God of War a "DMClike".
I think when people refer to hollow knight as a souls like they don’t mean the game play is like a dark souls game, but more that the atmosphere and interactions with npcs is like dark souls. Like most of hollow knight’s and dark souls quest lines are completely optional. The stories are also very similar.
Atmosphere of games is simillar because they are from the same actual ganre called gothic.
Npcs are also a lot like Zelda 2 and Castlevania npcs
Story has some simillarities but the moral and the message are completly opposite
@@goldenhorse4823 does dark souls or hollow knight really have a moral to the story?
@@applejacks175 Emm yes? That is kinda the point of every story.
Dark souls is about accepting the fact time has to move on and you have to change or you will end up misserable and stuck in the past.
Hollow Knight has bit less clear moral but litlle there is seems to be about attoning for sins of your predecesors and hope for the future
@@goldenhorse4823 there’s not really a focus on moral’s though
@@applejacks175 Moral of the story is a synonim for the message of the story. And even if you took most literally you could it would still counts since Dark Souls and Hollow knight teaches you how to act in life.
Hollow knight surely isn’t a soulslike, but playing it feels similar to playing a souls. What most people don’t understand is that it’s only the accidental result of some elements being featured in both games
This reminds me of people saying that the bosses in Kirby and the forgotten land are just like elden ring bosses, Which I find funny considering how easy Kirby games are. The only major similarity is that you have a dodge roll. I guess people made that comparison, since the games came out very close to each other.
bruh... those are just 3d kirby bosses where you dodge instead of float above/ under attacks. I grew up on amazing mirror on the gameboy. xD
Let’s not forget about a certain individual that complained that the secret final boss was like Dark Souls.
@@kirby65422 I'm actually curious who said that.
@@somethin7020 DarkSydePhil
While that's wrong, it actually ends up a testament to how poorly defined souls-like is as a genre, because a game that has almost nothing in common with dark souls shares like a half of it's defining features. Dodge roll, bosses that test reaction and learning of patterns, some doors needing keys/switches etc. Meanwhile the game itself is so different to dark souls no one in their right mind would say they are the same genre
i think it's a bit of a logical fallacy to take the individual similarities apart when it's their number and omnipresence that make people compare the two games.
I wouldn't describe Hollow knight as a Souls-like but it does gives a lot of similar emotions to the player, which is what art is all about. It's also an easy shortcut to recommend hollow knight to dark souls players and vice versa. In that sense it's way more appropriate to use the term "Souls-like" for Hollow Knight than for Cuphead or Jedi: Fallen Order imo
I mean like I said for me there are only 2 "souls-like" elements out of so many, so even together it doesnt count, but thats just my opinion obviously its not the only or even correct one
@@Pogobro enemies respawn every time u save and that’s the only point u can change your character
@@Pogobro theres a skill in learning when to heal between enemy attacks, great difficulty, story is scattered across various sources, the players equipment is gathered across the world allowing them to create their own build (though dark souls uses the leveling system a bit more in that regard), fighting bosses will usually involve mostly doging attacks and then waiting for openings instead of just spamming out attacks (more true for the harder bosses in hollow knight). To me the biggest difference is hollow knight doesnt have a leveling system like dark souls does since all upgrades in hollow knight need to be earned.
Hollow knight is a lot like dark souls in my book. The first time i played hollow knight I gave up after an hour and deleted it. Two years later after completing dark souls for the first time I picked Hollow Knight and now I wasn't so afraid of dying. I feel Dark souls took a lot from the OG 2D metroid games, and hollow knight did the same. They are bound to be similar.
@@Pogobro there are way more than two lmao
I just started playing Hollow Knight and fairly early on I kept thinking "This feels so much like a 2D platformer version of Dark Souls". Benches feel like Bonfires, NPCs you find in the world and go back to the hub area, Currency lost on death that you can recover, free form exploration, little initial direction with the story that is slowly told you to via environment, NPC, and item descriptions that you reconstruct yourself. A focus on Boss battles and the part where you are sent to kill specific bosses to unlock the end. Exploring a dead kingdom past its glory days whose inhabitants are affected by a condition (curse vs infection). Hell even Cloth feels similar to Seigmeyer. The whole vibe feels very similar, like Dark Souls is Hollow Knight's past life.
Benches are just save rooms, it exists in all metroidvania before dark souls and hollow knight, the difference is that instead a S marking in the map, it's a bench, NPCs going to the Hub area isn't also exclusive to souls games, "free exploration" and initial direction with story tha is slowly told you via environment is basically super metroid, the only true souls mechanic is the currency lost and recover.
The thing you're forgetting is that Metroid is actually a soulslike
Oh, right wow I can’t believe I missed that
so is super mario bros
6:01 "most players engage fights the same way" no buddy, no. HK players are AT LEAST 2 types : Nail based, and Soul Based.
I used to hear about people saying hollow knight is like a 2d dark souls but after playing salt and sanctuary and hollow knight that's just not the truth.
The game could be inspired and influenced by it but hollow knight is definitely it's own game. It leans much more towards the metroidvania style than it does the dark souls style, and there are definitely games you could go to if you want the dark souls feeling in a 2D game. The problem with comparing everything to dark souls is it makes finding more genuine experiences closely related to dark souls tough.
agreed 100%
Actually Hollow Knight is a “Paperlike” because the badge system is kind of like the one in Paper Mario.
didnt even consider that damn
i think the main source of the fallacy is just from the two games both having gothic themes. beyond that, there’s not much to tie the two games together.
Which is some harder bs. Like do they think Dark souls invented the style of gothic archicteture. Casltevania is right there
@@goldenhorse4823 It's not just the architecture, it's the ideological themes as well. Dark Souls and Hollow Knight both feature old, powerful, *grand* kingdoms and empires, once ruled by beings who were as gods to the common folk, now brought low by a super-natural disease whose causes are poorly understood or combated. Both games feature nameless, unimportant protagonists who rise beyond their insignificant origins to become true monsters, slaying all that stands before them and taking the strength of their enemies for their own. They also share a minimalistic style of storytelling, with themes of mystery and exploration, ] a brutal, unforgiving playstyle with minimal handholding, and feature the forces of light and darkness being locked in unending combat.
Taken all together, and it's not hard to see why people might make the comparison, though I agree that the term Souls-borne is used far too freely nowadays, and probably doesn't apply to Hollow Knight.
@@goldenhorse4823 but did you know that gothic architecture is a souls like?
dont belive me just look at the architecture and souls games. They look so much alike
Fr people just believe that Dark Souls invented the concept of difficulty
I'd say its cause the human build regains sanity points when categorizing things. If you pick up the autistic skill at the beginning of the game u gain even more sanity and an attack buff when putting things into folders and tags
Depends on what you understand as “Soulslike”.
You play as voiceless character of no renown in a world on brink of ruin with the “good” god being dead. your goal is to save the the kingdom. There is a plague that causes people to go insane and become undead. Tragedy is one of the main themes. Although the main goal seems noble the main characters can be considered good or bad depending on the perspective. Every character quest is optional. After death you loose all your money (the comparison with Zelda is not to far off but it is closer to DS as in DS you use your “exp points” as money and the comparison with Minecraft is to far off because in MC you loose all of your items and exp and they may disappear with time or fire) and you can reclaim it back if you can get back to the place of your death without dying. The Boss fights and exploration are one of the most important things in the game.
So for me it is a “Soulslike” game but that doesn’t mean that HK is a cheap knockoff and it’s not unique or that it’s not beautiful, just that it is similar to another good game.)
nice to have some hollow knight content
I personally would never call hollowknight a soulslike but to me, the world and vibes feels very simmilar and the shared mechanics between the games makes it feels very "soulsy".
Well kinda a give since both games are horror gothic.
I'd say they have a soulsborne vibe rather than being a soulslike
The world/setting kinda, there are a lot of areas that feels like it's inspired by the same setting as Dark Souls (city of tears, white palace, crossroads) and the way the story is told is also not 100% straight forward. Though HK also has visuals and areas that strongly detract from the chalked-out atmosphere of dark souls (greenpath, hive, mist canyon, crystal peak, etc) and the story and npc dialogue is far more legible than any dark souls game (it doesn't rely on item descriptions thank god).
Gameplay-wise the only shared mechanic they have is the shade/bloodstain system and that was also done by MINECRAFT. It's a metroidvania through and through.
Great video!
What I really like about Hollow Knight is it non-linear approach to Metroidvenia, which is unfortunately too rare for a genre that one of it's biggest selling point is exploration (Looking at you, Axiom Verge)!
I have axiom verge because I got it for free on the Epic Games store, should I play it?
@@erpillar Game is fine.
The main problem I had with it is that every time you get a new upgrade - there is only one true path that opens to you. But, unless you are using a walkthrough, you gonna spend a lot of time exploring and reaching a lot of dead-ends, which required upgrades that you currently don't have, to find that one specific path that become accessible!
In short: it's linear, but not in a direct way.
(another problem worthy of mention is: Their “unique” way of fast traveling - a long horizontal lift)
@@adiveler This game seems prefect for me then, I'll play it
@@erpillar game is decent, boss fights are full disclosure just badly designed, and the combat is kind of pointless. But its got a banger soundtrack and atmosphere
Hollow knight is linear though? Like you only have to follow a certain path to get through the game (Get the vengeful spirit, get the dash, get mantis claw) etc in that order
0:30 - As someone who hasn't gotten past the first 4 maps, seeing you display the whole map just made me realize "wtf was I doing for 4months"😢😂
Have u beaten the game now tho?
Interesting video. My problem with it is the very first assumption - that Soulslike should have its categorization derived from features in Dark Souls. While that certainly was true for the first games inspired by it, it simply isn't healthy for the development of a genre. Just like Roguelike games doesn't have to be a 1:1 copy of Rogue so should Soulslikes not have to be for Dark Souls. Genres need to evolve with what is best for the genre not necessarily the root game. Now certainly there are features that are pretty non-negotiable as with Roguelike, but the name really should just be treated as "the name for that genre" and not be hung up on the root game that much, because it will harm the development of the genre if we are - this has happened to many genres in the past that took quite a while to shake the strict association with the root game. Certainly a discussion should be had of what the core & secondary features are, but that's a different point.
Ok but you have to accept that the definition of a soulslike should not be expanded to “game that is hard.”
All roguelikes are still like rogue in that when you die/fail you lose ALL progress and start from the very beginning. Some roguelikes bent the rule a bit by only making you lose *some* progress but it’s not so great a difference that it makes the game unrecognizable as a roguelike. All games in that genre share a core gameplay mechanic that they were designed around.
What’s the core gameplay mechanic that Hollow Knight, Dark Souls, and Cuphead all share that they were designed around.
@@yeahkeen2905 Never said that, I literally said there are non-negotiable features and there should be a discussion about what those are but that it's a different point from this video.
@@yeahkeen2905 well if we exclude cuphead from that list we have punishable deaths, focus on learning a bosses patterns other you will be stomped, finding items/equipment around the world that the player can customise their loadout with, and theres also a decent thing about timing your healing properly which some games dont have. On top of that both have a big story that is given by snippets or lore from various sources and also have dark themes.
@@alexgraham4196 punishable deaths exist in any game that is hard, learning boss patterns is something you do in any game that is hard, finding items that you customize your load out with is something that exists in like 80% of all games. Are these seriously your comparisons? Do you think that Cuphead doesn’t punish deaths, require you learn boss patterns, or have you find/buy items to customize your load out?
@@dondashall if it’s a different point from the video then there’s not much point in making it as a response to the video. The video is about whether Hollow Knight should be considered a soulslike.
I think there is a recursive aspect to how you approach the game... You rest at a bench, you go out with limited healing, you face some challenges and then a boss. You'll probably do it over and over until you're able to avoid most damage. This central loop is similar, and I guess that's why people call HK a soulslikey game.
Not really.
That's what you do in Shantae, is Shantae a soulslike?
You go to a save point, you have limited heals, you fight the boss, die, go back to the save point and repeat until you have the pattern down. That's not a soulslike, that's just normal gameplay loop for platformers.
@@BlackSabbath628 ye but shantae is 10 times easier to be fair
@@BlackSabbath628 Is Shantae particularly hard? I consider this loop the "soulslike" loop when it satisfies two conditions: mistakes are heavily punished, so there is incentive to playing the section perfectly, and you risk losing progress if you die. Also, it helps if the resting points are somewhat spaced out, which they are in HK. I really think of Hollow Knight as a game more in the soulslike vein than most metroidvanias. It reminds me of Bloodborne in some ways.
I guess almost every metroid game is a souls like then! You could throw in many other indie metroidvanias too. Things like la-mulana, environnemental station alpha...
@@radiobe4179 You do not have to play any section leading up to a boss in hollow knight perfectly lol.
I'm always very specific: Hollow Knight is essentially a fantasy take on Metroid. There's very little -vania to it.
Imma need a list of all those Metroidvania games you just mentioned are like hollow knight. Some of those looked really fun in a different way
SAME
@@teacupanimates pinned a comment with them all :)
@@Pogobro thanks
Holy batman we are almost at 300 likes
Great video dude. I thought it came from a youtuber with like a million subs. Imagine my surprise. Keep up the quality.
@@thekingofracoons thanks! always trying to improve :)
The whole souls-like genre was a stupid idea in the first place. No one can actually decide if a game is a souls-like unless it's just a blatant ripoff, unlike metroidvania having actually clear game structure
There are some characteristics that someone could argue are specific,or much more common,to Souls like games.Examples are: a marked increase in difficulty compared to other,similar games, a mysterious world mostly explored through character conversations and item descriptions, death being rather common and robbing you of a resource that is vital for purchases and upgrades, leaving a residue of yourself on death that you can interact with to reclaim your resources,a refillable consumable that restores health etc.
Hollow Knight checks out all those things,while Metroid doesn't.
However, it also works the other way around,with Souls like games having characteristics that were originally mostly found in metroidvanias,like opening shortcuts,bonfires acting like save points and verticality used more extensively compared to a linear world. In my opinion,both genres share a lot of themes so a game could easily be both,as is the case with Hollow Knight.
Metroidvania doesn't have clear game structure either.
@@aureateseigneur5317 you collect power ups that let you clear different locks to progress. This is a defining feature almost no other genre has, and its pretty clear the game is a metroidvania when you see it. Souls-like on the other hand, doesn't really have that. What defines souls-like as a genre? Difficulty? A move that gives invincibility frames? Locked doors that need a switch or a key to open? An interconnected world? These are all things basically any other game can have, and if a game only has a few of these features very common across the industry, then it doesn't make it a certain genre, and if it has all of those, by that point it's just a dark souls clone
@@Reinoiro Actually tons of games revolve around collecting powerups to clear different locks to progress. What defines a Metroidvania? RPG mechanics? Loot? An open world? Locked doors? Lots of games across multiple genres have this. Like you literally just described a Zelda game in the loosest of terms.
"Souls-Likes" are just Open World 3D RPGs. That's all they are. "Metroidvanias" are just open world 2D Adventure games.
Nothing defines Souls-Like as a genre because it isnt a genre. Im literally arguing neither of these terms are actual genres. Souls-Like isnt a genre. Metroidvania isnt a genre. Its a portmanteau of two specific games people use to extremely loosly describe a shit load of games that are almost nothing like those two games.
@@aureateseigneur5317 The fact that souls likes are a flawed thing to make into a genre is the thing im arguing for, but i still believe metroidvanias are defined and unique enough to be a genre.
No, basic locks and keys don't make for a metroidvania. It's unique abilities and unique obstacles built around them that serve as such, not just basic keys and locks which are common, and there are very few games that have this exact power up and lock system that are not straight up metroidvanias, zelda is more of an exception. Also, metroidvanias are about the opposite of traditional RPGs, most of them never even use numbers, same with open world games, they are also basically the opposite of a metroidvania. Game structure where you collect power ups and clear obstacles is unique enough for a game to be called a metroidvania. While it is true that it's less defined than something like a first person shooter or a rogue-like/lite, it's also hard NOT to call a game like hollow knight or any metroid a metroidvania, because they are distinct enough from others to get that sort of separation.
Like, give 3 examples of a franchise or game that has the metroid power up system that is not considered a metroidvania, because from the top of my mind the only one that really comes up is zelda
In the end they are all just Zelda likes.
the true Redpill is that Dark Souls is a metroidvania, clearly it's a Caslevania Symphony clone
What he is missing is that it all do this together makes it resemble a should like, there were many times plying through elden ring that my brain connecting to hollow knight because they have a similar atmosphere, combat (with the heavy focus on dodging and timing, and that heavy emphasis on “you will die but over and over and over”. I’m a fan of dark souls and hollow knight and i like them for similar reasons, a punishing game with epic fights in a dreary, decrepit, weird and magical medieval world.
Yeah this video is mehhhh
this is nothing like elden ring though what?
@@Pogobro beside the obvious bug world,2d vs 3d world, and lack of rpg elements they have a lot of similarities and are very similar feeling in vibe and fighting style. They are not the same but have a large overlap of features we can’t just act like don’t exist.
@@TheFlashHawk Fighting sytles? If you mean combat then no. Hollow Knight in combat is fast and reponsive with much more movement and with totally different healing and spell systems.
Dark souls is slow and weighty with much more build veriety.
Bosses from Hollow Knigt have much less in common with Dark Souls but with Castlevania and other older games with bosses like Galion being an omage to Death from Castlevania aria of Sorrow and Grimm to Dracula,
No eyes as refference to Medusa heads, Ummu as Metroid from Metroid. Bosses also attack differently with lower wind up animations and often use their bodies to hit you since unlike dark souls their body is a hurtbox. Closest to a dark souls boss you would get would be Hollow Knight and pure vessel, False Knight, Meaybe watcher knights and nailmasters while you have bosses like Radiance, Grimm, Marmu, Galliot, Dung defender, nosk and basicaly everyone else that fight nothing like a Dark souls boss
Visualy you could say they are kinda simillar at places but most gothic medival games look simillar and the atmosphere you mention is not from Dark Souls but Angel's Egg.
Hollow Knight at best gives a nod or two to Bloodborne and Dark Souls 1
@@TheFlashHawk “besides the entire aesthetic of both games and the literal core genre that Dark Souls is and Hollow Knight isn’t, Hollow Knight and Dark Souls are actually very similar”
Also the combat in Hollow Knight and Dark Souls is nothing alike.
Dark souls and hollow knight will always be hand in hand for me personally. I started out with DS3 and had to put the game down because I kept getting stuck. It was only after coming back later and completing hollow knight that I was able to approach the game with the right mentality to get through it. YMMV
...I like the Shade mechanic, what's your issue with it?
it doesnt really add anything gameplay wise (lore wise it is important) and in a game about exploring it forces people to backtrack to where they died before they can try a different path
Epilepsy warning for 4:03
I been having this problem with rogue likes, games can take specific elements from the genre and make something that feels like for example The binding of Isaac but isn't rogue like. With soulslike game is the same, is like there's a spectrum of elements that makes you say "that's like darksouls".
So yeah, the game feels soulslike-ish, the atmosphere, the dialogue, the way the story is conveyed.
Personally I call it a get-lost-vania.
The cuphead and enter to the gungeon comparisons has me confused though.
Also the culture around naming genres is kinda strange, like jazz fusion Vs jazz rock, same thing overall, but jazz fusion came before and nowadays it has a wider definition for all mixture of genres with jazz.
I'd say Hollow Knight is more of a hollow-like rather than souls like and dark souls is more like souls-like rather than hollow-like.
the only thing greater than your wisdom is your content mr Bee
@@Pogobro which is non exixtant, so that means my wisdom is non existant 😥👍
Bro you wont believe this
Pokemon is now a souls like 🤯
This means that The Last of Us is actually the same game as Hollow Knight because they both have infected enemies that act like zombies
I tried to make this critique as constructive as possible.
People don’t call hollowknight a souls like because “wAhH iTs haRd so iT haS to Be OnE”. People call it that because it’s retrieval mechanic, Money system, Healing, and it’s methodical Combat. I’ll admit that a lot of the mechanics have their roots in Metroid-Vanias, because dark souls is one aswell. It’s a useful term that people use because it works, and trying ,in vain, to refute these claims in such a quick, matter-of-fact way makes it seem like you don’t know much about soullikes or the history of games, which I assume to be false. Your editing is good though.
dark souls is a metroidvania? perhaps i should try the game out
DS is a metroidvania. Okay man, sure
let me say the biggest argument: if you go to steam and read the game labels it says souls like xd
1:44 I'd guess, in an ample sense a souls-like is a game with punishing combat that places a lot of importance in a specific dodge roll mechanic. That is, for most attacks, you dodge roll in such a way that if the attack touches you while rolling you don't take any damage from it. That way, I wouldn't classify monster hunter, Risk of Rain 2 and sifu as souls-like but I would classify Dead Cells as one.
Gothy atmosphere, vague yet deep story, difficult for many, interconnected world, great bosses, and you have to go back to where you died to get your stuff. I understand where people are coming from, but I also think they're two entirely different beasts. People also say Dark Souls is a metroidvania, so who knows if anything means anything by now.
This is coming from someone who would put DS1 and Hollow Knight as my top two favorite games.
U forgot everything respawns and u can only change your character whenever you go to a checkpoint
It's aesthetic kind of feels like a soulslike. That's for certain.
yes but dark souls asthetic is just 3d castlevania dark gothic, it didnt invent it
@@Pogobro Dark souls invented/revolutionized environmental Storytelling in fantasy games no other has and combine with its unique difficulty. Most soulslike games Inclusive Hollow Knight took Dark Souls as inspiration.
A quick correction: Hollow Knight didn‘t take Dark Souls as inspiration, though they are really similiar
@@deadmanplays2684 🤦
@@Pogobro so ur saying castlevania is a souls like? I'd agree with that
Your points are valid but I still believe it can be considered souls like. Cause while stuff like just being difficult, having a dark/Sombrr ambiance, convoluted story narrative and/or depressing/epic music doesn't necessarily make a game a dark souls like- Having a combination of all of these does.
"Not every game that's hard is a souls like" true and that point goes for all of the key dark souls traits. But you gotta look to all the games traits as a whole not individually. Hollow Knight has way too many similar traits to not be considered a souls like AND a Metroid Vania. Cause at the end of the day- Being souls like or meteoidvania doesn't mean you have to be a literal carbon copy of these games. HK is a hybrid so it fits both categories.
Good video tho!
"this is the darksouls of genre discussion"
I thought that Blasphemous resembles a souls like metro the most but now that I've played it i don't agree too much
I thought devs had some inspirations from the first dark souls but knowing that only one of them played bloodborne I don't think that was the case. Although as a big dark souls fan, I do think that hollow knight perfectly catches the feeling of first dark souls and only the first one. Always discovering something new, going from bench to bench, opening shortcuts, making builds(although at the end it's always quickslash, strength, mark of pride/shaman stone and fillers), deep obscure lore and the battle mechanic (for some reason) remind me of my playthrough of dark souls
I think soulslike term is a nothing burger right now and it should really die out since what made dark souls such a good game are million different reasons that were well made, from lore to gameplay. When people use it, you can't tell what specific part of dark souls' features it has. Maybe it's the difficulty, maybe it's deep lore, maybe its one single NPC that just snuck a cheeky reference or the guy never played dark souls and just wanted to throw that in. It means nothing, LITERALLY
on a side note, I just noticed that if we switch names dark souls and hollow knight, it would fitting for both games lol
Souls-like as a subgenre is just way too loose and vague. It entirely consists of features and mechanics that aren't unqiue in the slightest
I think the reason people find it similar to Dark Souls is having to go to where you died to get a currency back, as well as the lore being defined but cryptic. If I remember, the devs worked on the art and gameplay first, and then invented the lore around that, rather than the other way around.
I think that we must compare the gameplay first, and plot/lore similarities should go only after we labeled the game soluls-like to check if it is a full souls-clone.
First, the infamous save and respawn system. This is the main feature of souls games which are all about dying a lot but getting things done. It could be divided to three parts: bonfires, estus flasks and bloodstains.
1) Bonfire checkpoints have two key details. First, they don't actually save your progress, at least, not all of it: if you collect an item or beat a boss and die, they will remain collected and beaten. Though I'm not familiar with a lot checkpoint-based save systems and having to backtrack after any significant action can be too obviously annoying (but there are games which require this). Second, bonfires restore your character upon saving, but respawn all common enemies. Some checkpoints don't restore, others don't respawn enemies, but in Dark Souls if you decide to backtrack and heal, you have to start the area all over except for the aforementioned permanent things and unless you do it, no enemy would respawn.
2) Estus flasks are consumables, usually healing, which are restored for free, but only upon visiting a bonfire-checkpoint. This way the game chains you to them even more since you have a limit on how much you can do before respawning all the enemies. Of course there can be variations like them being a usual consumable and bonfire only refilling the chararacter's inventory, like blood vials and bullets in Bloodborne or spirit emblems in Sekiro, but let's not talk about that (because it's bad).
3) Bloodstains are punishment for not trying the same thing over and over, since you lose something valuable where you die and can't just go somewhere else to grind and return stronger. Or you can, but at best you're going to lose the money you earned before that death if you die again, and at worst you will lose something completely irretrievable without collecting the stain, like mana cap in Hollow Knight.
So now about combat. It can vary, it varies even in FromSoftware's games despite their love for copying themselves, but since souls-like is about dying a lot, it must also fit that idea. A souls-like combat would never be about gloriously and awesomely defeating hordes of enemies like in God of War or Devil May Cry. It will never allow face-tanking and button-mashing. It should not be won by some trickery or numbers. Souls-like games aim for making you memorize every single move of every single enemy which requires, you're right, dying over and over.
What of these can be said about Hollow Knight (everything, but some will be wrong)? It definetely has bonfire checkpoints and bloodstain in one of its worst forms. But it doesn't have estus flasks. And its combat is surely about learning attacks by dying to them, but I'm not sure if there should be something more specific than that formula.
A souls like is a game with a door saying : "does not open from this side"
Soulslike is what game journalists use when they cannot think of an adjective to describe the game
No, judging from things like the comments section of this video and threads on reddit and 4chan, it's way more than just game "journalists" throwing the word at anything that's even somewhat hard and has a dark atmosphere.
Fr I hate it when people call every game a souls like. I’m a big fan of souls and for me it just shows that people don’t understand that dark souls is more than just difficulty and dodge roll. It completely cuts down everything that FromSoft made into: difficult game where you dodge and manage stamina. This is doing disservice both to the soulslike game and dark souls itself.
I think Jedi fallen order could be considered a souls because it has bonfires in the form of meditation points and flasks in the form of stim canisters and a parry system similar to sekiro but I still think it’s a 50/50 if it is or not
When it comes to video game genre definitions you either can be expansive or narrow. FPS includes many, many games that all feel extremely different to play. Halo and Call of Duty are FPS's but do it in different ways. The benefits of this expansive definition is that you won't run into a situation similar to calling Cuphead a soulslike. I tend to prefer an expansive definition over a narrow definition because what matters isn't getting the exact definition but a vibe that narrow definitions don't offer. Most times I try to describe a game with a paragraph and not a simple word. Games are complex and no single word can describe a game accurately.
Isn't Dark Souls Monster Hunter's-like?
Totally not putting this in watch later so I can go and look up and buy some of the games you mentioned part way through the video.
I pinned a comment with all the game names!
"third worst stars movie-" opinion automatically dismissed
Does anyone really call Cuphead a soulslike? I remember one journalist calling it like that back in 2017 and everyone repeating after him as a way to mock video game journalism, but that's it.
not anymore, but it wasnt just one journalist, it was a bunch of content creators, even Matpatt at one point
Very odd way of thinking from you. You identified alot of things that people use as evidence and showed that either dark souls didn't do it first or that lots of games did it. Not one thing makes hollow knight a souls-like. What makes hollow knight a souls like is the fact that such a long list exists that we can point to similarity. The fact that you pointed out, story, exploration, boss difficulty, benches, healing etc. Just because dark souls didn't do something first or unique doesn't mean the mixes don't look somewhat similar. That's like saying one painting isn't inspired by another because the colour green existed on trees first.
“Dark souls” Literally just means “Nightmarishly hard”
It literally doesn't
We are talking about a game in an interconnected world in which you explore a kingdom long dead to a poorly understood curse with few survivors. Those effected by the curse become mindless husks attacking on sight. The protagonist is working towards a goal they do not understand until the end to potentially sacrifice themselves.
The gameplay involves bossfights, death mechanics, checkpoints, finding incremental upgrades, etc.
This description is for both games.
It also describes Faxanadu and Zelda games.
@@yeahkeen2905 Well Dark Souls was heavily influenced by Zelda 1, so thats a pretty good sign that its a Souls Like lol
@@Daniel-ib5nt Basically what the video failed to mention was that dark souls 1 was a 3d metroidvania.
On top of that Hollow Knight shares it's main gameplay loop, gothic atmosphere, and vague storytelling, with dark souls.
He says that Hollow Knight is more like Sekiro than it is like Dark Souls, and I sorta agree, but Dark Souls in many ways is more like Hollow Knight than Sekiro, so...
@@Daniel-ib5nt no it’s not. Do you think any game inspired by old school Zelda are soulslikes? If anything that would make them all “Zeldalikes” which is equally ridiculous.
@@yeahkeen2905 Whats ridiculous about that? Its practical to be able to communicate that a game shares similar design principles with another game you like, its a compliment for the game usually. It doesnt have to be directly influenced by the exact game, its just a way to say "If you liked game A, you will probably like B too."
I refrain from using "Zelda Like" for many games like Dark Souls and Hollow Knight for the reason that Zelda games are less consistent with their formula. Both games are sharing a lot of design concepts with Zelda 1 for example, but way less with some of the others, so the comparison would need much more nuances that dont fit in a genre name.
we gotta stop labeling genres after games
agreed 100%
What are you saying. It is a perfect system. I love watching Sopranos since I am a big GodFatherlike fan. I also really enjoy Karate kid because I am also a Rockylike fan
@@obitosenju3768 my favourite genre is ponglike, of which all games are
Those last seconds broke me
I thought that it was a "souls like" because of the possibility of losing all your geo on death and that's it.
the four pale kings knights are literally the knights from dark souls whose names i forgot
also the way to get to the boss room lol
if you are talking about "finding the 3 things to open the path to the ending" thats a trope that has been in games since they were invented, dark souls did not invent nor even popularize it
@@Pogobro Of course not, but im not saying that either. Someone might take inspiration in Hollow Knight's shade system not knowing about Dark Soul's Retrieval. It's not about who made what first, it's about where the ideas are taken. I think Dark Souls is a pretty big inspiration for what Hollow Knight is
Theres 5 great knights of the pale king. But yeah, the 4 knights of gwyn (artorias, ciaran, ornstein, gough) are extremely similar
@@SunWarriorSolaire yuh my bad
@ no problem
What pisses me off the most is when people call hollow knight souls clone and say it's bad because it's not so much like dark souls, dude it's not even supposed to be a souls like don't treat it like one, it doesn't have rpg system or 5 thousand unbalanced builds because it doesn't need to
Dark Souls fans just don't play video games so everything to them is a Soulslike. I could bet that a large portion of them hasn't even played Dark Souls and just watched a crappy "video essay" about it
I don't get why some Hollow Knight fans get so hurt when people compare it with souls games when HK has obviously several elements very similar to them.
But yeah, it's obvious that Hollow Knight is predominantly and foremost a metroidvania.
Speaking for myself, it's also a game that made me appreciate several of the souls mechanics and style of storytelling that I wasn't very fond beforehand. And also made me want to give them another try.
I wouldn't have finally actually tried to beat the souls games (including bloodborn, Elden Ring and etc) if it wasn't for Hollow Knight.
6:14 Damn dude you didn't have to murder the unskilled
Hollow Knight is neither a Metroidvania nor is it a Souls-like.
It's a Souls-like Metroidvania. It has a lot of the formula of a Metroidvania with the awful Bloodstain/XP-loss mechanic of Dark Souls.
If we're willing to be extra pedantic one could call Dark Souls a 3D Metroidvania Zelda like.
Something one simply has to accept is genre labels (especially pertaining to games) are useless and one can keep going down the rabbit hole of less than helpful labels if one wants.
Lest one forget the incredibly "helpful" label: "Action Adventure games" which tells you literally nothing.
Sure is fun reading the comments and seeing all the salt between the two sides. Thanks for starting this war.
i haven't watched the video fully yet, but what i think is: calling HK souls-like is like calling a puzzle game FPS shooter just because in two places in the game you need to use an old flintlock pistol to shoot a chandelier or something to open a passage. Like, it's just a small little mechanic (granted, very much essential to speedruns of the game, but 1 small mechanic nontheless) I'm, of course, referring to our shade that holds our geo.
it is tho..
It's because you lose all your money and you have to go back and pick it up again.
Full discloser, I consider myself a metroidvania fan, not a soulslike fan. I don't even like most soulslikes. Plus, genres exist to sell games... not for actual game scholars to debate the influence of games on each other. And yeah, it's a double edged sword that sometimes help says, sometimes hurt sales because you could associate them with a game that you dislike. Also mad respect to you, I agree with a lot of things you said too, just not the full picture.
But I think Hollow Knight should count as a soulslike. It would be one of the only ones I do like. Here's my humble opinion on why I disagree with you.
You didn't present a solid standard. It's not a tangible standard to say a souls like is merely whatever reminds me of dark souls. You need actual parameters like: RPG, Mele Combat, Soul-Based Economy and upgrading, Punishing Death systems, Open World, in a post-apocalyptic, grim medieval setting, with a focus on really tough enemies and boss fights. Now, with that definition, the circle of things that would fit would shrink massively! Which other genre do you know of that has SO MANY parameters? Genres usually take 2-3 parameters from the games they are based on. When you were listing Hollow Knight similar games, you even dropped a topped down view on us for god sakes! So you have a selective standard!
My point is, Hollow Knight fits the bill in like half the things that define a souls like. Plus are you really telling me Sekiro is not a souls like? Because if so, then yeah... your definition of a soulslike is really too strict. You're defining a carbon copy of souls games as the genre at that point...
because thats what a soulslike is tho, Salt and sanctuary is a carbon copy of dark souls, hence why its called a soulslike instead of belonging to any other genre. Same with lords of the fallen. Like if you wanted to say Hollow Knight has souls like elements, I would agree. But calling it a soulslike is just wrong when it has so many differences
@@Pogobro Mad respect to you dude for making the video, and for standing by your word. I guess the crux of our argument, is where you draw the line! Your line is at a carbon copy, my line is at having like 3-4 of the souls like elements. At the end of the day, my understanding is that all genres are a lot more feeling based than parameter based. Like Metroid and Castelvania don't feel exactly the same either, but we think they both belong to a mutual genre.
The same thing has been happening with the term roguelike used to label any game with permadeath for as long as I can remember when even a pretty primitive game like Rogue is so much deeper. May as well call any shooter a CoD like or any fantasy adventure game Skyrim like at this point.
Plants vs zombies is souls like
Zombie (basically husk)
Lack of obvious story telling
Dark fantasy (zombie)
Has permanent upgrades
Has boss fights to lock progression (night 10s and zomboss)
Difficult (subjective)
Punishing (lose = start over the night)
starting over isnt exactly punishing enough, losing all your geo or souls is way more and you have to start over as well
@@alexgraham4196 yeah ik i was joking. pvz has no story, is not an rpg, is easy, and not very punishing.
Man i didn't expect to watch a HK video with Pizza Tower music on it. Good stuff.
just wait till my next video, literally pizza tower with hollow knight music lol
Every time i've used the soulslike to describe Hk is when i wanted to talk about the map being conected in a "similar way" to DS, but i kinda realise the term souls like is being used in a really wide range and only to compare one or two of the mechanics of the game, for example when people say cuphead is soulslike usually is because of the difficulty and iconic bosses, i can agree in the bosses but not in the difficulty since cuphead has options of difficulty.
My brother in Christ, HOLLOW KNIGHT IS A SOULSLIKE. Devs aren't hiding the fact that they took some mechanics from ds. Checkpoint, punishment for death, lore elements, story telling (lore telling). Even reliquaries are just *something* souls that you can't convert into regular souls from your inventory
they didn't
they said in interview that they didn't play dark souls nor any fromsoftware title unlike the b/tch in the video above mentioened
they just took little from zelda 2 and just that
From software didn't invent Checkpoint, punishment for death, lore elements, story telling (lore telling)
it is just your fanBOI character that made it to your self sounds like that
"Even reliquaries are just *something* souls" they are not again this is just you who see everything in the industry "sOUls lIKe"
Souls like Metroidvania and rogue lite/like are really just misused way too often.
Soulslike is just a pretty unhelpful term in general. It really limits creativity and puts people off playing games that they would enjoy.
100%
when the journalist can't pass the tutorial level, it's souls like
-Good video. 👍
- 2:10 okay someone didn't play in give me god of war mode lmao.
- at first glance the title of the video confused me because this game literally has the souls like tag in steam and is one of the first things you find if you go into the souls like category 😅
-I played both GoWs on give me god of war so not sure what that means
-steam tags are worthless, they literally have dead cells as a metroidvania
@@Pogobro if I remember correctly Dead Cells *is* technically a Metroidvania
@@obsessionsofthevoid nah, Dead Cells is a roguelike, it has very slight metroid inspirations, like upgrades, but its not a set map nor is there any backtracking, and exploration is randomised.
@@Pogobro ah shit yea now that i think about it you're right
Steam tags are set by users on steam. I wouldn’t go to them as a source.
I know that the last part about ultrakill is probably a joke but if it isn't I'm mailing you a bisexual lobster in a suitcase
Im interested
@@Pogobro it will be there in 2-17 business days, prepare thyself (I have also packaged a pocket minos prime in there)
@@erpillar
THY END IS NOW
@@obsessionsofthevoid PREPARE THYSELF
I used to call it a soulslike because i didn't know what metroidvania's were
its a super mario-metal slug-megaman.
The only thing more pointless than arguing that hollow knight is like dark souls is arguing that they are not very similar.
You almost got me on the Ultrakill part
I think the most fundamental flaw with this video is that you refute every single one of the reasons, without ever looking at the big picture.
Hollow knight isn’t a souls like because it’s hard,
or because it has indirect story telling, most of which you gain an understanding by reading dialogue and in-menu descriptions
or because it is about a ruined kingdom,
or because this ruined kingdom was brought down by a “living dead” disease,
or because the kingdom was ruled by gods,
or because it’s a metroidvania (which dark souls is),
or because it has a dark aesthetic,
or because it has multiple endings, the main one which you merely reinstate the status quo by holding back the destruction of the world temporarily,
or because it has the same death system
or because the main character is unimportant, one example of a large group of not usually very powerful beings,
or because the main focus of the story is not the current events, but the lore of the world before the events of the game.
It is a souls like because of ALL OF THAT combined. Of course none of these reasons make it a souls like, and they can all be refuted individually, but together, the case is a lot stronger than you make it seem in the video.
By the same approach, I could even argue dark souls 2 isn’t a souls like.
Why do you think it is? just because it’s difficult? difficult games have existed before dark souls.
Just before it’s and RPG? RPG games have existed before dark souls.
Just because it has indirect storytelling?
Just because it’s melee focused?
Just because it has the same death system?
Just because it’s an RPG?
Just because it has a similar story?
Just because it’s the same death system?
Just because it’s combat is focused on dodging and blocking?
Just because it’s a 3d action game?
Just because it has indirect storytelling, with a focus on lore?
…
do you see how I could refute any and all of these reasons alone? do you see how it’s their combination that makes these games alike, not any one of them?
Yea that is not how it works. Reason why Dark Souls 2 would be a souls like even if you changed the name is because it has more in common than different than Dark Souls 1. It has simillar level up system, way you equip and use weapons, roll mechanics, boss design, combat flow with weighty attack and roll reliance, explorration, healing potion mechanic and Ds2 in terms of differeating itslef only has healing gems that are simillar to demon souls, stones to open doors and bonfefire teleportation at start.
Hollow Knight at the other hand has very few actual simillarities like the Shade and the and some of the story which is not dark souls exclusive. The differences tho are much bigger. Hollow Knight is fast, there is no roll, there is only one weapon, there is no bonfire teleport, there is no blocking(except if you use that one charm), it has plattforming, totally different way you level up, you gain movement upgrades, it is an metroidvania( which dark souls is not), has totally different healing and spell system.
@@goldenhorse4823 dark souls is 1000% a metroidvania
Mf is the bosses hard and a road block? Yes do you have a currency that works everywhere in the world? Yes do you have the chance of losing the currency by dieing Yes does the monsters respawn unless you go to a resting point no? then what the f@?$ are we discussing hollow knight is a infusion of metroitvania and souls like
Mf all of those features are not unqiue to souls like at all. The only mechanic that is, is shade holding geo, the rest is literally just normal videogame mechanics. Calling a game some genre because of a few inspirations is straight lunacy
you said playing lords of the fallen feels like playing darksouls and thats why its a souls like but it actully feels like playing darksouls2 sotfs but everything was covered in honey, weighed as much of a feather but took the same streangth to use or swing as a 1000lb weight on the end of a stick
lmao I didnt want to get that specific but we were ALL thinking that
@@Pogobro good just wanted to be specific
It’s definitely a soulslike in the sense that when you die in the game you have to go back and get essential resources. when you die after that they disappear. it’s not speaking in the sense that it’s matching gameplay. same way rogue likes aren’t actually like rogue. and that the death system is matched.
also- the resting points are also there. for it to be a soulslike it doesn’t have to match demons souls (where the term comes from)
Resting points? The checkpoints that exist in, I’d wager, 90% of all games? That’s what makes Hollow Knight a soulslike? Plus one relatively minor mechanic?
The resting points in hollow knight are way more similar to most metroidvania save points than bonfires, in bonfires you recover all your healing itens and are able to upgrade your character and teleport to other bonfires, while in a generic Metroidvania save points you only recover your hp and save your game
@@yeahkeen2905 it’s not ab the fact that they are resting points. but the fact that that’s not only where you have a checkpoint and actually can gain all of your health back. much more similar to FS games than every other metroid-vania
@@atriz267 you get your health back at checkpoints in other metroidvania games what are you talking about? You think Dark Souls invented healing at a checkpoint?
@@yeahkeen2905 the benchs also respawn a bunch of the enemies and its the only place you can change equipment
The game provides a little of a challenge.
“ITS A SOULS LIKE GAME!”
I remember i accidentally cheesed the lost kin fight while using defender's crest and glowing womb lol
It would be nice if you added links to the games you showed. I couldn't figure out the name is the one you showed last and it looks really interesting!
damn thats my bad I thought I copied them to the description
Exil , not yet on steam. For me it's the topdown game at 8:12 that I can't find
@@Ovnidemon Pogobro pinned a message with all of the links to the games he showed there.
The one you're looking for is called Scrabdackle. It's also easy to search up on Steam
(My job as a Scrab-fan has now been accomplished. And I shall vanish into the night once more...)
9:24 This is exactly the reason why I avoided playing Hollow Knight for so long cuz it was called a souls like and I don't like Souls likes but since I picked it up I have been playing it for the last month Non-Stop and it's one of my top five favorite games
I have this theory that Hollow Knight is actually inspired by Shovel Knight in many ways. Just think about it:
-Hollow Knight has little puddles of geo to destroy, which are very similar to the puddles of gold in Shovel Knight
-When you die, you lose all you cash, and if you die before retrieving it, you lose it for good, like Shovel Knight
-There's a pogo mechanic in Hollow Knight that really resembles Shovel Knight
What I'm trying to say is that some of the mechanics from Hollow Knight that people attribute to Dark Souls might have actually came from Shovel Knight instead. But maybe I'm wrong and they got the pogo mechanic from Ducktales or something.
Got it: Hollow Knight is a SekiroLike!
This all debate reminds me of the fact that there is no scientific definition of vegetable and fish and it is not possible to make one that is both not too specific that it starts to lose things we would like to be called vegetables or fish, or start to become so big that everything is a vegetables and humans are fish.
Resident evil is darksouls.
Half Life is darksouls.
Carmageddon is darksouls.
Baldur's gate is darksouls.
Math is darksouls.
it is absolutely a pointless arguement ...that I spent many hours making a video on. played myself damn
@@Pogobro you made us a gift, and I thank you for it.
Silksong when
Idk, honestly the video seems to be arguing that the Soulslike genre isn't real, or that a game has to be nearly identical to DS/use it as the only form of inspiration to qualify as Soulslike, both of which are assumptions I wouldn't agree with. Instead, I think we should use a more standard, less limiting definition of the genre.
Typically, I've seen Soulslikes defined as:
-Having high levels of dexterity-based difficulty and punishing boss battles (often with laborious run backs) the goal being player improvement through expected, repeated deaths
-An emphasis on environmental storytelling superseding dialogue or narrative storytelling
-A dark fantasy/medieval/gothic setting
-Checkpoints that heal the player, function as warp points, and function as a location to level up/equip permanent upgrades
-A mechanic that allows players to recover lost assets if they can make it back to the location in the world they died.
-An interconnected, metroidvania-like world
-An emphasis on multiple playthroughs to fully experience the game
-Multiple endings based on player performance/choices
-Some form of PvP that allows players to appear in/leave messages in other players' game world
-RPG elements such as stats and equipment customization
If we accept that a game can be a Soulslike without having to copy every single aspect from this list, we can see that Hollow Knight hits 7/10 of these criteria, making it pretty self-evidently a Soulslike. I think you'd have a much better time arguing that calling Cuphead a Soulslike is a cop out, because unlike Hollow Knight it hits almost none of these criteria outside of being difficult.
what have you mentioned was there in the industry and even some of them in the real life before even Miyashit born and got out from his father balls
just say that you can't see no difference because you are a fanBOI
The only thing about HK that is soulslike is on death you lose your Geo and your magic is halved until get Shade back.