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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 ธ.ค. 2023
- Dimarzio have had a trademark on double cream pickups and PAF pickups for years, but Gibson have initiated legal proceedings to cancel the Dimarzio marks. This will be very interesting no matter what happens.
Sources
Guitar.com
guitar.com/news/industry-news...
First trademark dispute
ttabvue.uspto.gov/ttabvue/v?p...
Dimarzio Mark rejected
tsdr.uspto.gov/caseviewer/pdf...
Larry Dimarzio Les Paul videos
• Larry DiMarzio's Origi...
• Guitar World reveiws t...
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It's not really XMas without a Gibson lawsuit. The gift that keeps on giving
It's as much of a tradition as Home Alone
@@rkk578 Or the greatest Christmas movie of all time.....Die Hard
Actually it’s quite cool that any pickup maker will be able to make double cream color humbuckers
We should thank Gibson for this one. And I’m saying this as a frequent critic of Gibson.
@@impossivel2006Die Hard sucks. Awful, tedious waste of time.
Gibson is a Ship of Theseus at this point. The people at the helm are no more connected to the legacy of these technologies than the people at Dean and Dimarzio.
Gibson huge down fall where the lawsuit failures we found out a lot about Gibson also there lies what they actually invented.. Gibson doesn't have any credibility they haven't
They’re basically trying to retroactively sue over copyrights and trademarks they they’ve lost any right to be defending due to their historical lack of attempts to defend them. The only reason they won in the Dean case is because they insisted on a jury trial and utterly bullsh!ted the jury.
Doesn’t Larry DiMarzio still own and run DiMarzio?
What do you mean? The people who made Gibson what they are now; Les Paul, Ted McCartney, Seth Lover and Ray Dietrich, are all gone, both from the company and from life.
Larry Dimarzio however is still very much still with the company.
What is wrong with you?
Patenting the color of a pickup was always one of the weirdest things to me in the guitar world. Especially considering white pickups will age to be cream colored.
@@Shadow-of-Mampang It seems to scare off a lot of folks from even touching the color. Appreciate the info though!
@@Shadow-of-Mampang
You sure about that ? Seymour Duncan offers double white but you won’t find a double cream or another name for cream on their site. There’s older used Duncan’s that are double cream but they’re expensive. I think if Duncan could use double “cream” and call them antique white or aged white they would be selling such but no one besides the Chinese companies offer yellowed over white both bobbins. I just think if Duncan could make them and call it a different color they would.
I’m patenting a bobbin ager. Gotta PAF it before Murphy Lab finds out.😜
@@Shadow-of-MampangNegative ghost rider, while the wording is covered so is the shade of color, this is why for years duncan has offered parchment as a color. Put next to a cream pickup its a lighter color.
@@johnnyxmusic Didn't know you could patent used coffee grounds, lol.
One thing people need to keep on mind here is that this lawsuit will make double cream public domain. It opens up double cream to every US based maker.
DiMarzio sued the hell out of Sheptone a few years ago.
yeah that's not gonna happen. IF Gibson wins, this is just the first step in them acquiring the trademark for themselves.
@@j.r.g3548but then if Gibson wins, and do as you say, they'd be in the same position they're putting Dimarzio on right now. Wouldn't they?
@@j.r.g3548they can’t. This case is contingent on double cream not being trademarkable in order for Gibson to overturn the trademark on bobbin colour. The end result is double cream being available to every maker.
@@claudiocampusanorojas4090. No, they would not. KDH addresses this.
@@MisterTee he says they're appealing for it to become a generic thing for the market, not available for trademarking
As a trademark attorney, I have to commend your research and explanation.
It's triggering when commentators commentators start giving their opinions on these things without really understanding the substance, but your take was informed and well reasoned!
Then why didnt you pick up on the fact that he omitted a important piece to the trademark? Its not just for the color alone on humbuckers like he says repeatedly in the video. For years Carvin sold cream pickups as did Bill Lawrence (the many versions of the company included) the important part is its cream color with 12 round pole pieces. Any other configuration was not covered. Hence why Dimarzio were further seeking a trademark on on double cream bar pickups to cover X2N type pickups.
@@TL-angzarrit's pretty easy to infer. He said the double cream is the subject of the dispute i.e. the two uncovered singles in humbucker config. Do a better job of using context clues and listening comprehension if you want to be a classic TH-cam pedant.
@@_powerrranger Then why didnt KDH himself make the distinction? As I noted there are other twin bobbin designs that don't use 12 round pole pieces that don't violate the trademark. It's not pedantic, it's being precise and it's important to the conversation. While it can be inferred I would be willing to bet that many who watched this video didn't understand that distinction and think the trademark applies to all cream colored humbuckers.
@@TL-angzarrhow, from his comment, did you assume he hadn't "picked up" on an important piece of the trademark? How about you calm down a bit, stop being angry with people for no reason, and go do something else for a few minutes.
@@TL-angzarr Get a life or a brain. Whichever blunders it's way towards you first.
a Gibson lawsuit is not rare. Me siding with Gibson in a lawsuit is a first.
Hahaha! I know? Right!?
You're a hypocrite then lol.
@@warmtoiletseat5596 not really, since generally Gibson is trying to stop other people from making things they claim they own. and in this case its the opposite. thats pretty consistent.
Anyone else notice how well thought out and constructed this guys videos are? Good show KDH! You’re an intelligent mind my friend 😊
He's the best!
He needs to get laid.
Yeah, I just found this, so I subscribed.
I remember a guy named Joel that was the North American Matamp/Green distributor. He held onto amps for months after they arrived and did all sorts of shady crap. So he started “Electric” amps, clones of Matamp. Then, he tried to sue Matamp for using colours for their Green and custom amps. He lost.
Ah yes, Buttpussy. He still owes people money for amps never delivered.
Hmm, this reminds me of a trade dress dispute I had with Emerson Knives back when I was a custom pocket knife maker. Emerson had a trade dress patent on a little hook on the top of the blade called a "Wave Feature" that snags your pocket when you draw it out and automatically causes the knife to open, which is really handy. However, they had a mechanical patent on it from the 90's, which expired, but they got a Trade Dress trademark on it which can be renewed indefinitely. Emerson said that the Wave Feature was a signature look and feel, so no one else could put that feature on their pocket knives, even though the actual mechanical patent for it had long expired, and of course they threatened to sue me when I wanted to put a similar feature on a knife. Emerson is a huge company in the space, so a little guy like I was couldn't stand up to them in court, since court battles are usually a matter of who is richest in the USA.... so when I got my C&D from them, I redesigned my knife, even though typically trademarks aren't really meant to cover mechanical features. IMO I don't think DMarzio is going to win this, not because they're legally wrong, but it seems like it's pretty easy for companies to bend the trademark laws a little and get a competitor out of the space, just from my experience. Their legal argument tho should be that the original patent was for a covered pickup, and that the color is purely an incidental accident, like you said. I also don't really believe that trademarks should cover something as mundane as a color, since it's not a trade secret, so it's entirely obvious to someone how to recreate the look and feel.
If Gibson "wins", could this not set off a chain reaction of invalidating Gibson's other patents/trademarks, especially the les paul, since they too have been copied so many times?
Im doubtful because body shapes and configuration can be argued that they are less generic, but its not impossible for this to alter the way guitar asthetics are considered. You raise a very good point and I really hope someone takes Gibson up on this
Dean V Gibson round 3?
Gibson already lost against PRS on the subject of body shapes. It was determined that bodies are considered generic and the only thing that can be protected is the headstock. However then the dean lawsuit contradicted that so who knows
When it comes to guitars, I believe the only thing that can have trademarks are names and the head stock shape. For instance other guitars can't have a flying V or A because those names are taken. A company could still call the shape of their guitars a flying-D even though it doesn't resemble a D at all.
This is the really interesting part of this. Gibson could eke out a little win here by invalidating DiMarzio's trademarks, which would make them public domain and thus, allow them to be produced by any manufacturer in the United States. Gibson gets to make pickups (and PAF pickups particularly) in double creme with no repercussion, which is no doubt a boost for them, especially for Gibson fans who like new tech but prefer older aesthetics.
BUT, it would also, to use a law term, potentially "open the door" to other manufacturers making the argument that generic products forms should not be trademarkable. I'm definitely no expert on trademark / copyright / patent law, but I want to say I remember reading that the most recent ruling concerning a product takes precedence over previous ones. Which, if true, would mean that previous rulings in other cases (Gibson v. PRS or Gibson v. Dean) may be tossed aside if a judge has decided a similar case recently (since instruments and electronics are obviously NOT the same thing it may not matter, but since it would be Gibson involved in both cases, that may change how that works -- again, I'm not an expert).
With Dean's current situation ("in the throes of death" as of last summer), if the decision against them was suddenly re-opened and overturned, or they were to file a new lawsuit and win based on the above speculation, it could be the difference between the company living or dying (personal, ownership and corporate issues notwithstanding).
While this case doesn't seem like a big deal on the surface, it actually has the potential to be pretty huge and Gibson may regret trying to "protect their legacy" so vigilantly.
@@TheCMGiordano exactly. I don’t believe that they don’t know what they’re doing. It isn’t as if Gibson doesn’t have any experience in these matters. I wonder if there is more going on here. But then again, maybe it’s no more than the current CEO throwing their weight around to show they’re in charge.
I really wish Gibson was better run. They should have just focused on protecting their name, like fender, and getting on with making great guitars. There are so many strat copies that are essentially 1:1 copies of strats and yet people still value actual fenders.
As much as people hated the robo tuner Gibsons, I thought it was an unexpected return to focus on innovation within the company where product development got more of the budget than the lawyers. Now, we’re back to the lawyers.
Damn, I don't believe it. Dimarzio actually made me want Gibson to win a lawsuit for once.
Who invented the humbucker is debatable. Don't forget Ray Butts and his filtertron.
why doesn't Gibson just make a different shade of cream. And if DiMarzio disputes it, Gibson can just show them the RGB color code to prove its not like DiMarzio's.
Well that’s the thing, you can trademark a color but you can’t outright own it. As long as the public can distinguish a difference in color between similar products, they can’t do anything about it. It’s like “Tiffany Blue” or “Coca-Cola red” it’s a specific color to their brand not just straight blue or red. Dimarzio would have to make a “Dimarzio Cream” or whatever they wanted to call it. But it sure wouldn’t stop others from using cream colors. As long as the two brands are not confused as being the same.
It is a different shade of cream. A lot of smaller makers have tried this, and still got CnD letters from Dimarzio.
D will pursue any and all shades that remotely resemble "cream"
Well, same could be said for V shaped guitars. Customer does not want a Gibson V shaped guitar but wants a Dean V shaped guitar. If a specific color cant be trademarked then a specific shape should not be trademarked too, how many usable guitar shapes are possible after all.
Now if it were Same shape of V in rounded edges I would get the issue but most other brands that had a V shape the edges were way more pointy or offset yet then owner of Gibson had sued everyone making a flying V model.
Bout time someone sued them. It's an arbitrary trademark. That said, it's hilarious that gibson is doing it.
Yeah I HATE rooting for Gibson here, but I do hope they win.
But if Gibson wins do they get the exclusive rights to “double cream” humbuckers?
@@JosePineda-jn8jk no
@@JosePineda-jn8jkNo, they're trying to cancel out DiMarzio's trademark, not to gain it themselves.
If Gibson spent as much money making viable guitars as they do creating lawsuits they might win over some players.
I was wondering whether you were going to point out Bill Lawrence doing non covered double creams first, and then you did. Well researched my dude.
I hope Dimarzio attempting to trade mark double cream blade pick ups wasn’t an attempt to create a way to sue Bill’s widow and daughter for making cream L500’s. That would be really sh!tty. They’re a small family business (doing Bill’s legacy proud!)
Oh man I didn’t think of that when he mentioned the double blade trademark attempt, but who else out there is more recognizable for their double blade design than Lawrence? Glad it didn’t go through.
Funny enough, Bill Lawrence was Dimarzio's mentor
@@dressedtosmellgood Have you seen how much Dimarzio downplays that? His story on the origin of the Super Distortion is an interesting read, though obviously slanted for marketing/promotion purposes. It's very much, "Well, I was already doing this when I started working with Lawrence," and he even goes so far as to say he didn't think that Lawrence was particularly interested in pursuing pickups as a business.
I always find the uncertainty of pre-internet beefs to be incredibly appealing. We'll most likely never know these details, but it's fun investigating.
The truth hurts. "Double Cream" pickup plastics are generic at this point-let's get real. KDH, keep doing what you do! 🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥
The funny thing about Gibson is that they stole the Les Paul design from O.W. Appleton, and now they sue everyone who copies it.
I think Seymour Duncan put cream bobbins in their covered pickups so you can get your soldering iron out and remove the covers and viola you have the double cream bobbins. The problem that Gibson and Duncan have is this gives the appearance people are playing DiMarzio. I think Gibson should 'win' this one... They should be able to produce a pickup they originally did without the covers. DiMarzio trademarking neon green pickups might be interesting. The PAF question is a bit more interesting again... given it's a name.
@@tonekilltech Insane but it makes sense... they weren't quiet about it.
It’s because cream is a tone color and everyone knows it’s the best sounding color lol. I had sets of cream bare knuckles imported, and I have a set of parchment (cream) suhr humbuckers now
The UK Milk marketing board owns Double Cream.
@@rimmersbryggeriyou may be onto something here, it’s all a ploy big big dairy corporations 🤔
I have the zebra coils myself...it was on sale.
DiMarzio should trademark and rename the color "Gibson Off-White".
Is Gibson going to go after every manufacturer that provides guitar stuff to Ali Express sellers? I think not.
I like to imagine a sort of black market where there's all kinds of shady characters dealing in the most horrible criminal stuff in the world, and in one corner there's a bunch of guitar nerds looking for double cream humbuckers.
I always wondered why Gibson didn't change PAF (patent applied for) to PR (patent received)😂
Thats why I don’t tell people I have a job, i just put in an application years ago
Wow, great research. You just saved Gibson many thousands in legal fees, I hope they send you a nice les Paul.
In general I have been critical of Gibson for their constant lawfare. Just make a better product and be done with it. However in this case, I think they're in the right here.
The Dean lawsuit was legit or had some merit . They want to resurrect the futera headstock and it actually would create confusion in the market place . Plus the Dean owner is sketch . They’ve not destroyed heritage either seems respectable . If I were Gibson I’d buy Heritage and make Kalamazoo the historic department
I usually roll my eyes at Gibson’s legal antics, but I would actually love it if they nailed Dimarzio on this one.
As I understand it, Seymour Duncan will do a double cream, but it has to come with a cover for the customer to remove themselves. I have a Seth Lover that came double cream under a gold cover.
Other pickup makers have sold me double cream under those same stipulations.
But don’t you have to pay extra for the “custom” make up? That was what I was told by customer service last year when I tried to get a pair of antiquities like that.
Gibson is speedrunning how many lawsuits they could shove in 2023 lol
I have a set of Dimarzios in a guitar that are all creme. The main reason I bought them was because of the aesthetic. They sound good, but I do prefer the pickups I have from Duncan or other brands. If I could have gotten Duncans in creme at the time I would have bought them instead.
I love DiMarzio pickups. They are the only brand I use in my personal bass guitars and most of the bass builds I do for sale. However I don’t think they need to have a patent on the Creme color. Either you want the DiMarzio sound or you don’t.
Dude you are the best and getting all the info in cases like this! Great work mate!
So DiMarzio is going to be a victim of genericization (which is why Xerox actively fights against people calling photocopying "xeroxing" and Nintendo doesn't want people calling their consoles "Nintendos") by letting everyone talk about "PAF" as a late 50s humbucker sound, rather than the specific DiMarzio model. I don't think they stand much of a chance here.
as always- very interesting and very well researched- thank you!!!
Great video explaining the subject.
I wrote into Levi Clays guitarsoles podcast giving him some information about trademarking colours etc the last time this came up and they ready my email on episode 114. Not sure if that info is of use to you but as soon as you said ‘dimarzio pickup colours’ this jumped right into my head. Have a great Christmas 👍
Thank you for keeping us up to speed when it comes to these lawsuits, I find them interesting.
Thank you!
This is a weird case. The original double cream and PAF trademark should never have been granted. It was common parts to a guitar and limited consumer choice. However, I would argue that DiMarzio are pretty proactive at defending their trademark and currently the douple cream is associated with DiMarzio for US guitarists because of the trademark blocking everyone else from making a double cream humbucker.
I don't think the original trademark should have granted, but I think they have a strong argument that for brand recognition it does currently serve a purpose. It will be an interesting lawsuit.
Excellently researched and presented, I learned stuff! And I really enjoyed it. Great video
MERRY CHRISTMAS KDH!!!
Lawsuits over the color of plastic.. These are real world issues folks!
These first world problems are ruining my life🤦
Talking about inventing the humbucker, I’m sure it’s shortened to stick to the point but don’t forget the filtertron. You actually showed what I assume was the patent for the filtertron.
Another great breakdown, KDH. Thanks!
Great videos as always KDH
I have been playing guitar for most of my life and I have NEVER thought, wow look at those cream colored pickups, they must be Dimarzio. Stupid trademark is stupid
This is the content i LIVE for, keep it up kdh.
another great vid. thanks KDH
Just subscribed to your channel, how did I miss this?
Very interesting Video, I a Double cream neck pick up from BG pick ups and it looks awesome.
Never knew about this until I put it in my Gibson les Paul then my guitar teacher mentioned it.
Keep up the great videos,
Ross
Wild to hear about a Gibson lawsuit and go "yeah that makes sense, good luck guys"
Great, intersting video as always KDH
I don't generally side with Gibson on these trademark disputes, but I've always thought the double cream bobbin trademark was weird. I've never had the need for a double cream humbucker, but if I ever did want one, it would be nice to get this option from other pickup companies. When I see a double cream pickup in a guitar, I don't automatically think it's a Dimarzio because I do know a bit about the history of this. I'm certain I'm not alone. Dimarzio have held the double cream trademark for long enough. I feel like they should just let this one go now.
As for the PAF thing, that's a little bit tricky. Dimarzio trademarked "PAF", like it's a word. Those pickups are called PAF, not P.A.F. Maybe this is where we'd see a compromise? You can have the PAF word, but drop the bobbin colour trademark. This is an interesting one. Thanks for covering it!
Dimarzios tend to sound more vintage than Duncans.
I have a Mighty Mite humbucker from 1978. Double cream.
i heard all this a week ago about time you made a video
Wait a minute? They claim the cream color pickups are now "generic" but the flying v shape isn't?
You go deep, it seems much like well-researched journalism to me, and I heartily approve it as such.
I hate double cream bobbins, only dig the color in zebra, so Dimarzio can keep em for all I'm concerned lol
Your research is impeccable.
Fascinating topic i just put two humbuckers in my prs se custom 24. Vintage dimarzio super distortion in the bridge and a seymour duncan slash model in the neck. The seymour duncan pickup had a cover on it but under the cover was double cream bobbins very odd.
I like DiMarzio pickups. Especially when looking for a nice aesthetic for a guitar, they have the most color options. With that said, if they lose the trademark, that just makes for more competition and better prices/options for U.S. consumers, which is always a good thing. I don't know if DiMarzio owns the trademark for a lot of the other color options, but given the limited number of competitors for neon green or hot pink pickups, I'm guessing they do. This case will probably set a precedent and create a domino effect when it comes to pickup color options. Rejoice, for you may have a hot pink JB in your future, haha.
Competition doesn't always mean better prices, but often better perceived pricing. With a lot of things you get the price, but then there's add ons to actually get what you need.
@@Scott__CIt is better pricing. Even if prices do not necessarily go down. As of right now, you basically have 3 choices. Buy DiMarzio pickups in cream color. Option 2, buy some shitty Chinese knockoff that may or may not go microphonic in a short amount of time. Price might be cheaper, but you are sacrificing quality and shipping time. Option 3, contact a pickup manufacturer, have a custom pickup made in cream color which would be significantly more expensive than buying a DiMarzio pickup. If the trademark gets dissolved, then you could actually buy whatever pickup you want in cream color, so while a JB or Bareknuckle pickup might not go down in price, you would at least be able to get a legitimate pickup of your choice in cream color rather than having to go for a bootleg or clone.
You can get a hot pink JB right now, but yes, overall this will be good
@@yallimsorry5983 I don't even see the option in their custom shop, so I'm not sure where you're going to get a JB in hot pink without either paying double by having them do it or getting a bootleg that won't actually be a JB nor will it get here within 30 days, lol. I'm all ears if you can point me to a real JB in hot pink at current retail value for a JB.
This was a good video. Well researched and assembled
Just one question ! What is the blue flamed hot strat over your left shoulder, it has the single coils angled the correct way in my opinion and I think I might like one 😄
Looks like a Vola OZ
Merry Chrimbo, dude! I hope you've got a big box of Tayto in for it! 😁
Thanks KDH, keep the shenanigans of the guitar industry a coming 😄.
Very good video as always and interesting points. Just one small "nitpick" Although Seth Lover and Gibson lay claim to being the inventors of the humbucking guitar pickup, Ray Butts developed what would become the Gretsch Filtertron in 1954, prior to Gibson (but it didn't hit the market until after the Gibson pickup). That story would make for an interesting video from you. Both Gibson and Gretsch applied for patents, and the US Patent Office granted both companies' patents.
I've got a Les Paul KM with double cream T Tops from 1980. They were only made in 1979 and a few in 1980 but they're double cream Gibson T Tops.
'Intellectual property' is a huge boondoggle ; property norms justifiably apply only to rivalrous resources, not abstract 'ideas' that can be implemented simultaneously without conflict.
Trademarking bobbin colors is a bit ridiculous in the first place. That's like having a patent on chrome for spanners.
Huh, while I knew about DiMarzio trademarking the double cream (which I've always thought is just crazy, on so many levels), I never knew about them trademarking "PAF". That they have still been able to maintain them this long is also surprising, given the very clear genericization.
Your comment on Coke and Pepsi reminded me. Clapton had a series of signature colours for strats - one was called 7Up Green and apparently matched from their can. There was an objection to this from whoever owned 7Up rights at the time. So not only was the name no longer referred to as 7Up and changed to Candy Green but the colour was tweaked slightly to another green and then killed off.
The other was Ferrari Red, but Fender didn't risk that and called it Torino Red instead.
The funny part of this whole thing (as you mentioned) is Gibson suing to have a trademark removed.
No doubt they will try to trademark it and then when they’re told no they will freak.
If the trademark office actually allows that to happen, it will be due to a lot of cash being spent.
Then the cost of their guitars goes up more.
"No doubt they will try and trademark it, and when they're told no, they will freak."!??
Why would you think that? I mean, Gibson's behaviour may he described as obtuse from time to time, but I'm pretty sure they're not completely stupid. If we can see that their argument will be used against them trademarking dbl cream pups, they can too.
@@castleanthrax1833 not completely stupid?
Yes. I do think they are. Cause play Authentic was a smart move on their part?! Anyone taking these clowns serious after that nonsense is silly.
Play Authentic, video was up 1 day and got removed cause the backlash was immense.
Sue Everyone is their moto
@@ScreaminT81 The "Play Authentic" video was about 5 years ago. I don't know any company or business that hasn't made some poor decisions... especially a company that's been around for decades. That doesn't rise to the level of "completely stupid."
As far as your "sue everyone motto," if that were the case, you should be able to name several businesses or individuals who Gibson has sued? Can you list 5?
@@castleanthrax1833 it was about 5 years ago. It is still the fav joke amongst those who don’t like Gibson. I see you’re either defending them cause you’re a fanboy, or you don’t like Dimarzio
@ScreaminT81 So, speaking the truth must mean I love Gibson or dislike Dimarzio? I'm not sure how you arrived at that.
I don't love or hate any company. I have 2 Gibson guitars, which I quite like, but I don't have any feelings, positive or negative towards the company itself... certainly none that would come close to the hatred you're displaying for Gibson.
They must've done something quite severe towards you to warrant such negativity... or do you simply troll every video about Gibson and spread your dislike for them?
Another really interesting vid 👍👍👍
You can get double creams from a lot of small builders. Some may refer to them a double "white".
I heard that you can even get them from Seymour Duncan, just with the covers on them. What you do when you get them is up to you.
I do like the look of double creams on a burst especially.
Trademarking cream for pickups in particular seems odd. Cream tends to discolour especially easily -- it can change drastically in not much time. Trademarking a colour like Coke red makes sense because Coke can pretty much always present itself in that same colour and you are always dealing with a new product -- the Coke can. But for a cream coloured pickup that's going to discolour anyways seems like it's not worth the effort. I certainly don't associate cream coloured pickups with any company.
A consumer sues over pickup color? Just paint the damn things whatever color you want.
Actually an argument can be made that Ray Butts of GretSCH fame kind of was there first with the hum buckers theory and you can see that outcome in the FILTERTRON pickup.
What if a pickup maker in the U.S. makes double cream pickups but calls it "Aged White" or "Tobacco Smoke Discoloration White"? You'd end up with the same colour but because it's not called "Cream" would that be a trademark infringement also?
The difference between a color representing a brand's identity (Coke red, UPS brown, etc.) is that DiMarzio does not exclusively sell double cream humbuckers... they offer the same zebra, double black, covered, custom colors, etc..., in other words,, double cream is just another option and a generic color. It's not like "Daphne blue". If every DiMarzio was double cream, I suppose there could be an argument but it's not, nor is it something they created. Imagine your UPS driver showed up at your house in a red UPS truck wearing a blue UPS branded uniform on Monday,, a green uniform on Wednesday and a yellow one on Friday and their fleet of trucks were an array of colors. Even Coke Zero and Pepsi Zero coexist and have used black cans and the word "zero". For the record... I am not a Gibson fanboy at all and have used DiMarzio pickups since the 1980's. I'm surprised they got away with it for this long.
I love your content!
Another great vid!
Gibson so busy suing people, they forgot to trademark 'Humbucker'.
Or to improve QC significantly.
What about all of these double parchment pickups I've been hoarding?!??!?
DiMarzio *has* to do something. If they don't defend their trademarks in the courts and enforce their trademarks, they lose them. It's not a prediction. It's a basic mechanic of business. Someone violates a trademark, the company takes measures to enforce the trademark.
I’m a lawyer. Played guitar back in the day. This is extremely well done. Hopefully there is an early substantive filing that explains DiMarzio’s defenses that can be the foundation of another episode. You would think the dated advertisements, with the video, have a rational alternative explanation. Perhaps it’s tied to what appears to be a 41 year delay in challenging the mark. Excellent narration. Hopeful for continued episodes on this.
So what are the odds of Gibson® suing themselves?
Watch the full video people. Gibson is kind of in the right here!
This such a silly debate. No one has or can claim ownership to black pickup bobbins, or even white afaik, so in my mind at least if DiMarzio doesn't base the entirety of its brand identity on that cream color, then it should not be able to claim that they exclusively have the right to produce humbuckers assembled from two of the bobbins put together.
Coke can easily claim that red color because that is indeed integral to the brand's identity.
DiMarzio makes pickups in dozens of colors, and frankly if anything their brand identity stems from their unique pole pieces, and their sun logo.
As someone already stated, DiMarzio trademarked the “PAF”, not “P.A.F.”
Hey kdh, have you ever come across a Ibanez jem77p that may be a counterfeit? Could you help me with this?
Who doesn't use PAF? It seems that since there were Gibson pickups came in double cream before DiMarzio trademarked them.
Remember the Hamer Sunburst from the late '70s: it came with a double cream DiMarzio in the bridge position and a zebra DiMarzio in the neck position.
What happens to people who make their own pickups. I've seen a lot of vids where some people wind their own pickups on a range of coloured bobbins to put into custom guitars they've made, both for themselves or for sale.
What the hell is that document that Larry (allegedly) wrote for the trademark application? I have never seen an original PAF with "navy blue" bobbins. Not one!
Weird...
Can anyone help me identify a pair of double creams in my 79 Les Paul? They were there when I bought it and I’ve never been sure what they are. I know they aren’t DiMarzio because they have the square hole at the end like the original Gibson PAFs. Best candidate I’ve found is a Seymour Duncan double cream PAF set made in the 70s-80s, which do have the square holes.
Imagine lacking practical innovation or value other than the color of a plastic and feeling the need to sue over it
Although I feel other makers should be able to do double cream with impunity, Gibson never trademarked PAF or double creams. So you snooze you lose. Shrewd business foresight on DiMarzio's part, bit it does limit the consumer now that there's more awareness.
Pickup makers outside the United States do. E.g. the mentioned Bare Knuckle pickups in the UK...
@@schmoemi3386 yeah knew that from a while back. Also, you can order double cream from some makers as long as cover installed, and then you can take them off. I've actually got some Duncan Antiquities that were double cream when I unsoldered covers, but they can't advertise or sell that way.
Ray Butts preceded Gibson's HB with the Filterton AFAIK. And that second paper you show is of a 'tron.
The PAF issue is why the makers of Velcro don't want everyone using their product name in place of hook and loop.
So what’s keeping bare knuckle from selling pickups with a cream bobbin under an easily removable cover?
If DiMarzio has the patent on cream colored pickups how is it that my Bill Lawrence L-500 and L-350 pickups are cream colored. The L-500 is a blade style but the L-350 looks like their Super Distortion in cream. I’m confused 😵💫 big time….
Great video 👍
My peavey bandit has "patent applied for," under the transtube logo
"Are you a Gibson??"