I *knew* pressure spike wasn't binder tier! Allowing shapers to finally break barriers without jumping through hoops was something I've thought Shaper needed for a long time. Also, my roommate feels you have personally wronged him by leaving Pretty Mary da Silva in the binder tier, especially while moving Spree up. This was very funny, and I encourage you to dunk on more of his pet cards.
I love that you both waited to do this until around the end of continentals. This meta took a while to shake out (especially with the bans) so taking the extra time definitely added to the evaluation!
Ooh, been waiting for this! Here's my own changes before I watch, as a little guesswork: Crew and Cataloger down to Archetype Enabler. Seb, Amelia, Manuel down to Slots are Hard (although I still believe Amelia will show up in a winning competitive deck someday, but it's super niche.) Muse up to Archetype Enabler (definitely enables the Rosetta list, also really strong with Physarum). Valentina and Malandragem down to Slots are Hard. Physarum up to Ban Me Plz. Woppertunity up to role-player (control Crim). Possibly Cup up to role-player as well (control Shaper). Meeting down to binder. Pressure Spike up to... not sure, it sees a fair amount of play but isn't exactly a staple? But faction staple might be the most accurate tier name, since it's almost like the non-archetype generalist fracter. 'Pretty' Mary up to role-player.
Having watched runner, I think I still disagree about Amelia. Watching Sokka play the Padma Amelia list did convince me that you can realistically land this card, and it combos well with your already-useful Stoneships, and the payoff is gamechanging. I don't think many decks will play it, but it's better than a binder card that is just strictly outclassed. And I think Pretty Mary does just enough to be worth playing in some decks; they may not be the meta-defining decks, but they can do well enough to make the cut. Time for corp! Tributary up to BAN ME PLZ by default. Cloud Eater down to role-player. Sudden Commandment down to... slots are hard, I guess? Practically speaking, it's just trashable Biotic but in yellow, and it's just not what yellow is doing right now, but could be someday. Derez Grid down to Slots are Hard. Hammer and Boto up to faction staple (oh my god Andrej, you must have died inside when you saw where you put these, knowing your current opinions on them). Isaac might need to go up as well, but not sure if the specific decks that are using him are actually winning with him, or he's just incidentally in similar decks to the top BtL glacier lists. Hearts and Minds up to role-player. Overall, I think you guys did pretty well on the corp list the first time around, other than the absolute whiff of Hammer and Boto. Edit: I'm going to chime in as having died on turn 3 to See How They Run enough times that it should remain where it is. Also, I couldn't see Bring Them Home and forgot it. I personally think it's a binder card because unlike Active Policing that refunds its own click spent, you usually don't have a click to play it when it's relevant, but maybe it's just Slots are Hard. Edit 2: You guys are talking about Nuvem like you're excited to play a 54 card BABW that trashes a quarter of the deck and has to worry ten times as much about agenda flood/dumping in archives. BINDER!
@celestialspark5697 Isaac to me feels unnecessary in those BtL glacier lists. Wall to Wall is a cheaper rez, more expensive trash and has a better secondary effect whilst also letting you choose where the advancement goes completely instead only the first advancement and only in the server Isaac moves to (ie can't back to back advance two ICE on your remote for example). Until Wall to Wall goes, Isaac is stuck in Startup.
In terms of "lessons learned," the big one feels like Trick Shot. If I recall correctly, both Bahia and Raindrops moved up after being revisited as well. The lesson seems to be that "crantrip-like run events get undervalued, especially when they bundle together multiple effects"
I think it bears mention that the Seb archetype, and everything around it, is very real in Startup. There's something cohesive there but it gets outpaced something fierce in Standard. The same is true of Thunderbolt! I'll be curious to revisit this set post-Dawn when a ton of established staples rotate out and we're entirely in the NSG cardpool across all formats.
I mean, with just Liberation cycle, HB's other choice is PD. Which is probably better in Startup than it is in Standard imo because everyone is weaker and all PD misses is like... Rashida and a couple of ICE.
Corporate Hospitality: I will be interested to see what this card does post rotation when PD has fewer 3/2s. It's so much worse than RLC at everything except the Disentomb effect. But, PD has the recursion effect built in and in a pinch it can still NA 2-pointers even if it doesn't have Seamless
New player so feel free to roast my takes. It's me, I'm the little guy under Hammer. Runner side: I despise Ashen Epilogue. I really do. I don't think decks should have a reset button. I think Cataloguer's biggest flaw is just the Corp meta in terms of deckbuilding. 3 pointers are sooo prevalent. Trying to flip off R&D consistently is so awkward when lots of Corps are loading up on 3 pointers to lower agenda density. The other big problem... they released Trick Shot in the same set. And Trick Shot is doing so much for R&D pressure, click compression and econ that Cataloguer just isn't necessary. I'm surprised you dragged Alarm Clock down, I see it happen in Deep Dive Sable occasionally. I think Jeitinho is actually quite necessary in case Corps keep running in the "make agendas impossible to find" archetype with like Drudge Works because you still have to be finding ins into centrals. We all wish Seb landed. That's all I can say about Anarch. Corp side: Powers That Be is an asset spam card. I see Ob, NBN and maybe Asa HB all considering it. Ob is so fun but so complicated. I think NSG cooked with the big W with this set. Bangers, across the board. My only problem is Logjam gives extra copies of Pharos which isn't healthy for the future, even if I like having an alternative to beat Boomerang. Holoman isn't the card that needs banned imo. I think it's Azmari. This stupid goddamn identity. Basically every identity pushes you into some sort of playstyle but Az says "play 40-44 and have an identity that is guaranteed to make money". Maybe YDL is the actual problem CARD, but Azmari is not a fun identity. Bellona is not something I mourn. Maybe I just don't like NBN. I do like Holo Man though, and Terminator tag was a fun deck. Why is Tributary 4 strength? That has always been the part that confused me. Feels like 0 strength 1 sub would make more sense for its mechanics. That said, the set proved me wrong with me thinking Jinteki ICE is bad with Boto. I think there are too many tech cards that are also just good engine that Runners have for Jinteki net kills to be real right now. I actually like how HB came out. Nothing feels too out of control. I guess that's because I don't care about Thunderbolt.
Would have been REALLY funny if immediately after Jeff says "I'm going to share an anecdote that will probably be cut for time" there's a cut but he still tells his story
I felt and still feel like the support cards for Seb was overcasted by 1 or 2 credits. It felt like those cards were balanced for Seb, rather than trying to make the self-tagging cards worth it for a normal anarch to run and Seb putting them over the edge
It'll be interesting to see if Dawn brings a metagame slow enough that some of the more 'value' cards can see play; as you say, at the moment, you have to be prepared to be sprinting from turn 1 onwards or risk falling behind (with the exception of the most grind-focused control builds).
I find it hilarious that you talk about feels bad when bouncing resource with working prototype when 100% of corps and 50% of shapers bounce every corp card with Hermes sometimes multiple times a turn.
Ashen SHOULD be a BAN ME PLZ card... but now corps just slam cards on board and end the game by turn 10 so this is a basically a binder now lol (And corps SHOULD end the game by turn 10 now cuz that freakin turbine doom rig just exists... )
Yeah, I think it's correctly placed as an enabler because it's a serious choice as to whether it's worthwhile to have a card that is dead early and expensive to play, but lets you play that second loop of your deck. You really have to plan your deck around playing the first loop fast enough for it to be worthwhile to have a second, and weigh whether that's worth doing.
![[TH] VALORANT Champions Seoul - Lower Bracket Final - LEV vs TH](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/fyYkI80GG4o/mqdefault.jpg)
Physarium being a faction staple but for the wrong faction is so funny.
I will never admit I was wrong on any card ever 🤐
I *knew* pressure spike wasn't binder tier! Allowing shapers to finally break barriers without jumping through hoops was something I've thought Shaper needed for a long time.
Also, my roommate feels you have personally wronged him by leaving Pretty Mary da Silva in the binder tier, especially while moving Spree up. This was very funny, and I encourage you to dunk on more of his pet cards.
Lmao. Gottem.
I do think that we were a wee bit harsh on Mary, but don't tell your roommate.
I love that you both waited to do this until around the end of continentals. This meta took a while to shake out (especially with the bans) so taking the extra time definitely added to the evaluation!
Ooh, been waiting for this! Here's my own changes before I watch, as a little guesswork:
Crew and Cataloger down to Archetype Enabler.
Seb, Amelia, Manuel down to Slots are Hard (although I still believe Amelia will show up in a winning competitive deck someday, but it's super niche.)
Muse up to Archetype Enabler (definitely enables the Rosetta list, also really strong with Physarum).
Valentina and Malandragem down to Slots are Hard. Physarum up to Ban Me Plz.
Woppertunity up to role-player (control Crim). Possibly Cup up to role-player as well (control Shaper). Meeting down to binder.
Pressure Spike up to... not sure, it sees a fair amount of play but isn't exactly a staple? But faction staple might be the most accurate tier name, since it's almost like the non-archetype generalist fracter. 'Pretty' Mary up to role-player.
Having watched runner, I think I still disagree about Amelia. Watching Sokka play the Padma Amelia list did convince me that you can realistically land this card, and it combos well with your already-useful Stoneships, and the payoff is gamechanging. I don't think many decks will play it, but it's better than a binder card that is just strictly outclassed. And I think Pretty Mary does just enough to be worth playing in some decks; they may not be the meta-defining decks, but they can do well enough to make the cut.
Time for corp!
Tributary up to BAN ME PLZ by default. Cloud Eater down to role-player.
Sudden Commandment down to... slots are hard, I guess? Practically speaking, it's just trashable Biotic but in yellow, and it's just not what yellow is doing right now, but could be someday. Derez Grid down to Slots are Hard.
Hammer and Boto up to faction staple (oh my god Andrej, you must have died inside when you saw where you put these, knowing your current opinions on them). Isaac might need to go up as well, but not sure if the specific decks that are using him are actually winning with him, or he's just incidentally in similar decks to the top BtL glacier lists.
Hearts and Minds up to role-player.
Overall, I think you guys did pretty well on the corp list the first time around, other than the absolute whiff of Hammer and Boto.
Edit: I'm going to chime in as having died on turn 3 to See How They Run enough times that it should remain where it is. Also, I couldn't see Bring Them Home and forgot it. I personally think it's a binder card because unlike Active Policing that refunds its own click spent, you usually don't have a click to play it when it's relevant, but maybe it's just Slots are Hard.
Edit 2: You guys are talking about Nuvem like you're excited to play a 54 card BABW that trashes a quarter of the deck and has to worry ten times as much about agenda flood/dumping in archives. BINDER!
@celestialspark5697 Isaac to me feels unnecessary in those BtL glacier lists. Wall to Wall is a cheaper rez, more expensive trash and has a better secondary effect whilst also letting you choose where the advancement goes completely instead only the first advancement and only in the server Isaac moves to (ie can't back to back advance two ICE on your remote for example).
Until Wall to Wall goes, Isaac is stuck in Startup.
Amazing video, watching that makes me feel like I understand the current meta while in reality I don't.
In terms of "lessons learned," the big one feels like Trick Shot. If I recall correctly, both Bahia and Raindrops moved up after being revisited as well. The lesson seems to be that "crantrip-like run events get undervalued, especially when they bundle together multiple effects"
I mean Trick Shot was considered strong from the get go, its stocks went from "really good" to "yeah this is broken".
dawn 24 hours of analysis or bust
On a list of the top cards of RWR, trickshot shows up like 4 times
Always love these retrospectives!
I think it bears mention that the Seb archetype, and everything around it, is very real in Startup. There's something cohesive there but it gets outpaced something fierce in Standard. The same is true of Thunderbolt!
I'll be curious to revisit this set post-Dawn when a ton of established staples rotate out and we're entirely in the NSG cardpool across all formats.
I mean, with just Liberation cycle, HB's other choice is PD. Which is probably better in Startup than it is in Standard imo because everyone is weaker and all PD misses is like... Rashida and a couple of ICE.
Love these!!!
Corporate Hospitality: I will be interested to see what this card does post rotation when PD has fewer 3/2s. It's so much worse than RLC at everything except the Disentomb effect. But, PD has the recursion effect built in and in a pinch it can still NA 2-pointers even if it doesn't have Seamless
New player so feel free to roast my takes. It's me, I'm the little guy under Hammer.
Runner side:
I despise Ashen Epilogue. I really do. I don't think decks should have a reset button.
I think Cataloguer's biggest flaw is just the Corp meta in terms of deckbuilding. 3 pointers are sooo prevalent. Trying to flip off R&D consistently is so awkward when lots of Corps are loading up on 3 pointers to lower agenda density. The other big problem... they released Trick Shot in the same set. And Trick Shot is doing so much for R&D pressure, click compression and econ that Cataloguer just isn't necessary.
I'm surprised you dragged Alarm Clock down, I see it happen in Deep Dive Sable occasionally. I think Jeitinho is actually quite necessary in case Corps keep running in the "make agendas impossible to find" archetype with like Drudge Works because you still have to be finding ins into centrals.
We all wish Seb landed. That's all I can say about Anarch.
Corp side:
Powers That Be is an asset spam card. I see Ob, NBN and maybe Asa HB all considering it.
Ob is so fun but so complicated. I think NSG cooked with the big W with this set. Bangers, across the board. My only problem is Logjam gives extra copies of Pharos which isn't healthy for the future, even if I like having an alternative to beat Boomerang.
Holoman isn't the card that needs banned imo. I think it's Azmari. This stupid goddamn identity. Basically every identity pushes you into some sort of playstyle but Az says "play 40-44 and have an identity that is guaranteed to make money". Maybe YDL is the actual problem CARD, but Azmari is not a fun identity. Bellona is not something I mourn. Maybe I just don't like NBN. I do like Holo Man though, and Terminator tag was a fun deck.
Why is Tributary 4 strength? That has always been the part that confused me. Feels like 0 strength 1 sub would make more sense for its mechanics. That said, the set proved me wrong with me thinking Jinteki ICE is bad with Boto. I think there are too many tech cards that are also just good engine that Runners have for Jinteki net kills to be real right now.
I actually like how HB came out. Nothing feels too out of control. I guess that's because I don't care about Thunderbolt.
Would have been REALLY funny if immediately after Jeff says "I'm going to share an anecdote that will probably be cut for time" there's a cut but he still tells his story
People love it when I do punch-ups on their videos, right?
I felt and still feel like the support cards for Seb was overcasted by 1 or 2 credits. It felt like those cards were balanced for Seb, rather than trying to make the self-tagging cards worth it for a normal anarch to run and Seb putting them over the edge
As someone who gets the ancient card reference, I've never thought of it like that. That's a great point.
I told you about the See How They Run thing because it's exactly how I got flatlined some time ago. I was also cruising on points and then boom :D
The fear has totally settled in.
It'll be interesting to see if Dawn brings a metagame slow enough that some of the more 'value' cards can see play; as you say, at the moment, you have to be prepared to be sprinting from turn 1 onwards or risk falling behind (with the exception of the most grind-focused control builds).
You keep motivating me to play Nuvem haha
AND FIRE IT THREE TIMES?!
:p
I find it hilarious that you talk about feels bad when bouncing resource with working prototype when 100% of corps and 50% of shapers bounce every corp card with Hermes sometimes multiple times a turn.
Ashen SHOULD be a BAN ME PLZ card... but now corps just slam cards on board and end the game by turn 10 so this is a basically a binder now lol
(And corps SHOULD end the game by turn 10 now cuz that freakin turbine doom rig just exists... )
Yeah, I think it's correctly placed as an enabler because it's a serious choice as to whether it's worthwhile to have a card that is dead early and expensive to play, but lets you play that second loop of your deck. You really have to plan your deck around playing the first loop fast enough for it to be worthwhile to have a second, and weigh whether that's worth doing.
Wow... This means I haven't played Netrunner in more than four months! This is the set I just did not feel like playing.