My uncle had been hired by a customer to build a closet. They had set an hourly price for his labour. When he got to the job the customer wanted to lower the labor rate. My uncle agreed to the new rate and promptly returned his power tools to the truck and returned with only hand tools. The customer got the message and agreed to honor the rate originally agreed upon.
I’m a young floor installer and I’ll lever forget something one of my mentors told me. He was selling a higher end job and a customer asked for a price break so he calmly smiled, closed his laptop, picked up his samples, shook the customers hand, said have a great day and started to walk to the front door. The customer insulting said “well if that’s how you treat your customers you won’t stay in business very long”. My mentor still calmly replied with a smile “sir, this is precisely why my phone never stops ringing. I know my worth.” It changed the way I see my craft.
I have a friend who does cabinets, operates the same way. The minute you ask for cheaper he packs up and leaves, wont even say a word. He's been doing it for 15 years and is booked months in advance. He knows his work is worth the money.
A customer who immediately asks for a price break after agreeing to your quote to get you to show up, is the type of person who will constantly be chasing a cheaper price, and then...he will be the first to complain the most, and then threaten to ruin your reputation unless you give him even more for less. If he succeeds in squeezing you, and you let his do that, your prices will still never be low enough, and the hours you put in will also never be enough.
@@ronaldroberts7221 I always tell people the price I quoted up front was my best price, so if they think they can find it better then go with that vender. Then I tell them that I will remove the booking from my shop and persue other projects. I have a CNC router table that I make custom cabinets out of real wood not MDF on, and I always have projects lined up for months on end. So as much as I would like someones business I don't chase it.
@@joecooper8527 When I first started CNC carving I only asked for material costs up front and then the rest on delivery. I made someone a custom art piece for their front room and on delivery they tried to offer me less. I crated it back up and said that wasn't what we agreed to, so I am not taking that and you are not getting this. They said that its a custom piece for their family and I would have a hard time finding a buyer. I said that it is a custom piece for their family that's why it costs what it cost, but it will burn the very same as any other piece of wood in my fire pit. And that was the most expensive fire I had in my backyard. They tried to do a BBB complaint, I presented the contract, pictures of the finished work, emails in between multiple stages of the project where they said it was beautiful and were happy. And then told them that after all that work they didn't pay the price and then submitted expenses in electricity and tooling / programming time that I had invested that I wouldn't be recouping back. The complaint was removed and I had justification according to the BBB to take them to small claims court. But this wouldn't have been worth it from a time perspective I took the loss and I now take half the money up front (my cost in time, materials, electricity and a standard 7% consumable per hour of table time to cover my CNC router bits being worn / replaced.) the other half is my profit. If they don't want to pay my price at the end, I only lost the profit over and above my hourly charge out rate.
Once, I posted a picture of a bench I made and i wanted to sell, and one guy asked me: "How low can you go with this bench?" I replied: 14", lower than that and the bench is not comfortable anymore... Never heard from that guy ever again... Ultimately, my wife loved them so much (I made 2) that we kept them... Thanks, Matt for the advice, as usual!
I've been in construction for close to 30 years and one of my mentors showed me a way to handle people who always try to beat your price down and usually shut them up if not I walk away. It's simple I tell them that they can have two of these three things good,fast,and cheap if you want it good and fast it's not going to be cheap, if you want it fast and cheap it not going to be good and if you want it to be good and cheap well then it's definitely not going to be fast
@Alex Reid Exactly. There's some customers that you just don't want. They will always want to pay you less than what you ask for & they will demand more of your time vs everyone else. If they actually bring you new customers, they too will probably be asking for discounts from the start.
As someone that has been in sales for 40+ years, the answer to the statement "your price is too high" is this.... "AND?" Please understand that they have not ASKED FOR ANYTHING.... they have only made a statement, hoping you will drop your price. Put the pressure back on them by reversing the statement with a question, by saying "And?" Make them explain what they are saying.... most of the time they will relent and back away. They know that your worth it, just trying to negotiate so don't give in. If they say that they will have to go elsewhere, then and only then do you have the information you need to decide what to do.. take the job at a discount or walk away. It's now, your choice, not the customers. ALWAYS PUT THE PRESSURE ON THE CUSTOMER, NOT YOURSELF.... trust me, this is fun when you win!
Jim Camp's "Start With NO!". Using "Connectors" like that "AND?" The point is to enter their world, get them to talk, find out what's going on - for THEM. Also "Reversals" - put the question back on them. Then "hotline" 'em a little bit by labeling their feelings - Sounds like it's more than you can afford? or maybe - Sounds like more than you care to spend? Keep it in their world. Tell them what you think you are hearing them say. Let them correct you. When they are talking and you are listening then you are winning. And, yah, it IZ fun!
Sometimes a customer just can't afford my work. So, you can tell them that if they ask for a discount or say the quote is too high. "I understand, not everyone can afford this kind of product."
So well said. I've gone through that enough times when I was a plumber. Discount immediately means discount forever, and you better hope they don't refer you to friends.
I've done renovation work for 21 years. A few years in I got a customer that always wanted to pay less. He tried his best to lower the price of the bill after the fact. My response was "why should I devalue my own work?". This was a response he didn't expect, but it's true, and he ended up paying. You have to establish yourself through your pricing and quality of work. Another customer told me my estimate was too much, but if I lowered my price, he would have a lot of work for me in the future. Great, I can have devalued work and lots of it! It takes a bit of practice to stand your ground, but it gets easier.
I only disagree with one thing if someone starts off with I can buy this cheaper at.... I respond with "absolutely and you should buy it if you are price shopping. I never waste time on people like that by going into detail justifying my prices
That's my approach as well. This is my price and that is it, I am not retail chain that price matches on the same item / sku. I know what my costs are down to the KW/H for running my wood working equipment and some jobs just are not economically viable for me to do. So my quoted price is already my best price, because my intention is to always double my money on every job, and that has always been the rule of thumb for building and fabricating.
Spot on, Matt. I had someone offer $75 for a $325 console table. I didn't even respond to that one. I've had "can you take $20 less"? I politely respond that I've priced my piece fair considering the work and craftsmanship I put into it. That person came back with, "ok, I'll take it, just thought I'd try". But, the vast majority don't question it. And yes, repeat customers make my day! It's a validation that you're doing it right! For those new, I'd just say get to the point that your product is quality, stand firm on price, and be polite. Thanks for the video, Matt. Keep up the good work!
I would try to explain to that person, WHY the price is what it is... sometimes people are just trying to nickel and dime you, and those people arent worth the time, but there are also a certain amount of people that are actually afraid that they are getting ripped off.... those people would probably greatly benefit from a friendly conversation about WHY the price is what it is... it would help them understand that they are not getting ripped of, and may also help them to trust you a bit more which could lead to more jobs and good word of mouth...
My fav is "it's just a couple pieces of wood" I then tell them, alright, ill sell you the wood and you can invest 20-30k in tools and the time for skills to make it.
@@Sondan1988 what's the point in you saying that? To brag about being a dr? Was that stethoscope expensive? Do you have your own practice? If not what did you buy that which the hospital/ clinic already has in droves?
I'll buy Ikea, assemble it myself with a screwdriver, and read about you going out of business next year. How about that? I'm in my 60's, and have less than 10-things that are over 20-years old...with ALMOST ALL furniture that came and went along the way...most to roadside trash 'freebies'...even an 1898 victorian table...so yeah...Ikea...beats moving trucks and storage fees!
I'm setting up at a craft show tomorrow and this is the exact video I needed. I'm setting my prices to what I think their worth based on prices I've seen other places and what I've seen on sights such as Etsy. My response will be exactly this if someone says their too high. Thanks for the great videos and advice on not only the woodworking business, but on life as well. I am currently broke as well, but I have several hundred board feet of cherry lumber, skills and tools to build awesome projects, a good work ethic, and a loving family that means more than any of that. I know all of that along with blessings from God will carry us through. I've seen some of your videos on the situation you were in and it gives me hope for the future. Thanks again!
I had a lady recently ask me to build her a porch swing then asked for quote so I gave her my quote she said ok go ahead with the build and I did built it the she proceeded to tell me she thinks my price was to hi and didnt want if I couldnt accept what she thought was a good price so I explained to her what she was offering you could buy wood with let alone the rest of the materials needed so I kindly told her I'd just keep it and I posted it on fb market place and sold it no problem now any thing I build over 75.00 I request a non refundable deposit it let's me know I'm not wasting my time and theirs and it seems to be working out good this away
I always ask for cash in full up front. Granted I don't charge labor so the equiv for you would be material cost up front. This way if someone backs out I am not out anything but time which I was giving for free anyway.
I really enjoy your to the point videos, I have sold for less than I should have charged, I started to form a mindset “what’s the point” because you feel no one appreciates you work. Which is not good for your long term business. Thanks for your wisdom much appreciated. It’s a little deflating sometimes when people say “I love your work, but then walk away after looking at the price and then some people say your charging to little, ha ha you can’t win.
I agree with everything you said. I sell small items for less that $150.00 and one time I was asked to use cheaper wood. I don't do that because their friends will see the item and lack of quality and that will hurt me more.
I know a guy that prices his items 20% over what he would normally charge, then when someone asks for a discount he says "how does 10% sound?" Most people will jump on it and very few will ask for 15%, but even so he still comes out making more than what he would have sold it for anyway.
That's one strategy. The danger is that 20% higher could drive away potential customers when they won't even consider an item at that price level. Personally, I'd rather purchase from someone who knows what they and their products are worth and price it appropriately the first time. But that's just me.
@@spiralnapkin I have a spreadsheet that I made that calculates out my costs to produce something based down to electricity and a 7% standard consumable fee on all items. I mainly do CNC work (cabinets, decorative columns, wallart, custom moldings, child growth tree's.) so I know how much time it will take me on my table to do these projects and I know what I get charged for KW/H and I know roughly how much setup time / materials will go into it and the 7% is to cover my routerbits getting worn down over time. Generally speaking I take my costs, and add a 40-50% margin on it. So if something costs me 100$'s to make I will charge them 140$'s to 150$'s and if they order a bunch of the same thing , I will show them what I quote for qty:1 , qty:5, qty: 10 etc. So they can see the benefit of buying in bulk if it is the sort of thing they'd be interested in.
Yep. I made that mistake because I didn't have any confidence in the quality of my work. The comparisons she was making were to WallyWorld and Ikea! But, I caved. What eventually happened was rather than pricing myself out of sales was to price myself out of the ability to support more projects. In no time at all, I was scrambling for materials, making smaller and smaller projects out of scraps from previous projects, until I ran out of scraps AND money. Like putting $5 worth of gas in your car when you need $10 to get where you're going. Do NOT undersell your work! Ever!
Wow, this applies to every profession! I wish I had heard this 20 years ago. I have made the same journey where today I can stand firm by my price, knowing I’m worth it. I would have earned a lot more had I known this long ago. Thanks!
As a new woodworker it's easy to doubt your level of worth. This video helps alot and to be prepared for the ones that asks these kind of questions, they are everywhere lol so thanks again for talking about it 🛠
Good video topic. I'm retired in Mexico and started woodworking a few months ago as a hobby for my own needs, however, I get approached by the locals here all the time to do wood projects for them. I didn't expect this to happen and wasn't prepared to quote prices. At first, I charged next to nothing until research revealed a common hourly rate, which I am now using for the time being. I've been self-employed (USA) and can appreciate the information you're sharing in this video, especially about charging different people different rates for the same work. Word travels. People get upset when others are paying less for the same work. And you can't blame them. Though I don't need the extra income from woodworking, I will charge for my time and experience regardless. Thanks.
Matt, I’m a female who recently got into woodworking, and your videos have been sooo helpful to me! Really love your straightforward approach and calm nature. Thank you for your valuable advice!
Great advice! Don't budge. Offer them a quantity discount, and make the quantity high. That way you can batch them out and save time. and time is money.
I am new to the concept of woodworking for a living/job. I am currently a truck driver gone all week and only home for 35-45 hours on the weekend. Thank you for explaining a lot of things. Keep it up, your helping me and many others.
I'd like to say thank you. Been struggling in life to figure out my place. I stopped being a lukewarm Christian just recently. Reading the good book has led me to answers, and also led me to your videos. I don't believe in coincidences at all. So again.....thank you for the honest content! God bless!!!
Love the advice. So far I think I’ve done well for being 9 months into this craft. The best thing I’ve learned is by steadily increasing my prices I’ve allowed my quality to increase with it. By charging more I have more room to use better products and keep the stress of going over budget off my shoulders. And as you mentioned being stressed is when the most mistakes are made. That’s something I wish I knew when I started.
Well said. Unfortunately some people never learn the connection between stress, mistakes, and job satisfaction. When you're morale is good, you do good work :)
My answer to a discount request is to let them know that I am don't need to do it for the "practice", I know what I am doing... Or just give them the price that reflects the quality that you are giving. Good work is never cheap and cheap work is never good.
Your words couldn’t be more true and are a great reminder of what we are all worth. I’m a career violinist and can’t tell you how many times a wedding couple asks me to work for less or venue owner says I can perform free and get lots of exposure. Nope. Not gonna happen. I’ve lost clients over the years because i stood firm on my price, but it’s opened up other opportunities. But there will always be someone out there that will do it for less. Wal Mart or IKEA less, like you say. Thanks for the good pep talk.
Hi mate, I’m a painter in Australia. Great advice. We have the same over here, people who think you should give them a discount just because they want one. These people are like bloody seagulls, if you give them a discount once, they will assume that is the regular price for them and never leave you alone. Your time will be spent servicing customers who want more and more for less. You have to decide what type of customer you want to deal with. The type that is happy to pay a premium for premium quality and service is who you want to deal with, and build a long term business relationship with. My mentor once told me “take care of the people who take care of you”. Great advice for business and life in general
My father owned an automotive repair shop, he taught me that if 15% of potential customers didn't go somewhere else when you quoted them a price you weren't charging enough. For family he'd work for free, no one else got a discount ever. He used to say if customers can't afford you, you can't afford them either. In my time operating a small business I found he was right. The fastest way to go broke is to be the cheapest deal in town selling to the cheapest and or poorest customers.
I've been selling for a few years at craft shows and FB. I've had a few on FB lowball me - like barely more than the materials cost - or ask for me to "add a freebie." My prices are what they are. They're fair for the quality of work I do and I don't to sell to you since this is a hobby that pays for itself. Since my last show was kind of a bust I've got enough inventory for the next show and can do some projects for myself.
I run an electrical service business and I have been asked this a bit, so I understand what you are saying. I have implemented this in both electrical and my woodworking. Thank you for sharing your information in this video.
I have been a professional pricing analyst in corporate America for 20 years. I am also a woodworker on the side. There have been many studies done to find the sweet spot that will maximize your profits. A very simple rule of thumb that anyone can use is that you should set a price point so that your estimates get rejected 17% to 20% of the time. Now it takes a little while to figure that out but when you do you should maximize your profit margins compared to you expenses and capital outlay. There are always exceptions to this rule especially when material prices and inflation kick in but it's a start. Great video and keep plugging away.
Interesting post. Unfortunately because it has been posted a few months after the video it may get lost in the other posts, which is a shame, as many people would benefit from reading this.
Man, this probably sounds strange but, I wish I had a dad like you growing up. Not sure how else to say that lol just wish I had someone to guide me and give me good advice and to teach me
Not strange at all :) I'm in a somewhat related boat but kind of on the other side; I *did* have a dad like this, but at the time I was more interested in other things - things that have served me well, mind, but now that I'm older and finally learning woodworking, I wish I had had that interest back then. Dude was a powerhouse of knowledge and experience and I kinda pissed away that opportunity. Thankfully though I couldn't help but absorb some of it, especially the principles behind it.
Clamps: after more than two decades of owning and operating a hardwood flooring company I ran into a few customers that wanted a lower price. Your responses were correct, but sometimes you have to simply tell them to use someone else. By the way, your new studio looks great! God bless you and yours. -Rick, USMC
Thanks Matt. I'm Dave and this past Feb. My father passed away from Covid 19 and Pneumoniaand top of his Luekemia and Stage 3 Kidney disease. Needless to say its been a very hard and difficult time for all of us. There were nights I got so frustrated with not knowing how to use certain tools or not knowing what kind of jobs certain tools did.. None the less I was at an all time low because I felt no self worth and felt useless trying to help my siblings and mom. It got to the point I went to the local lake, was yelling at my dad for leaving us to early, i put my razor knife to my wrist and started to apply pressure, i wanted to join him in heaven.The blade started to !cut my skin when I heard
my dad say"Look up son. "At that very moment 2 pieces of cedar driftwood floated ashore. I collected them up and went home . I knew I had to make something from them for my mom honoring my dad. I made a Cross thats approx 3' tall and 2' wide for her. That my my start into woodworking. I can honestly say, woodworking saved my life and your TH-cam videos give me the advice I need, the advice I didn't listen to from my dad all those years he tried to teach me, and have helped me not only in woodworking but in life in general and I true believe your show keeps my head high and gives me my strength to keep working the wood. THANK YOU FROM THE BOTTOM OF MY HEART. KEEP UP THE GREAT WORK.
Listen to Matt. He's absolutely right! You ARE creating memories for people. I think you'd be surprised just how hard it is to find solid, quality wood products. Seriously. As much as you may think everybody and his brother is suddenly woodworking and producing great projects, they really aren't. A lot of them aren't consistent in their quality, are grossly overpriced, or are too specialized (meaning they made something so distinct that maybe 1 person in a million could appreciate it). Then, there are those who only do "quickie" projects, the small, repeatable projects they can bulk build (like pre-built noodle boards or cutting boards) which are great, but need to serve as a jumping off point to a more diverse product array. Gotta' grow boys. At least by changing up some of the design features of the stuff you do (which is harder to do if you're bulking everything). My point is, there are TONS of people out there who are just like you: they appreciate the beauty of solid wood products and don't mind stretching their pocket books to get them because they don't want to buy them again, year after year. Buy Once, Buy Right. I can't always afford the very best of the most desirable products on the market, but I sure as heck don't settle for dirt cheap stuff that looks good and falls apart faster than I can put it together. I, like many people out there, would rather buy one piece at a time and get great stuff than buy a bedroom suite in a box made out of wood chips and Elmer's glue. If you build some of Matt's stuff, a piece at a time, and your customers know you'll be available to add to their collection later, you'll sell you projects. Don't worry.
Studio looks great! Solid advice! I had to learn this lesson the hard way. Sell a couple of medium difficulty projects under what they're worth and you start to question why you're even doing this. Haha
I'm not a woodworker but a diesel mechanic and this video came up on my suggested and every single point in this video applies the same, your paying for the knowledge and experience and also the pride a woodworker or mechanic takes in their work.
Thanks Matt! This video couldn't have better timing, I'm working on a special custom request from a returning customer and I was doubtful of what I was charging, but to be honest, I'm extremely proud of how this is turning out, in terms of design, materials, how unique it actually is, but I was afraid I was charging too much, and as usual, you reminded me I have to believe in myself. Thanks!
I don't do a lot of wood working. I make art with throw away products around the home. These people that need a break......but they buy their kids $300 nikes.....no. I've been approached and asked these questions. I've been hit with, it's really ugly. But they have also comeback and asked, have you sold that piece I'm interested in.....yes I have. I've sold it go a happy customer that's commissioned more. I'm never hateful, short, or mean. I'm very humble. I usually tell them, thank you for looking. I've also told a few, bless uour heart. If you're from the south, you get it!
It’s very important to have a price that’s fair to both you and the customer. I’ve been a drummer for many years, and early on, the band I was in decided we should charge very little to “get our name out there.” We knew another group that charged $600 for a four-hour party, so when we were asked what we would charge, we said $300. Our name got out alright; we were soon known as “that band that charges half as much” and “got” many more $300 gigs than we could handle. So, don’t undersell yourself unless you plan to continue to do it!
This is an amazing simple example Dennis! I used to caution my sales team that if their customers were too “busy”, they were not priced correctly and the best thing my salesman could do for them was to help them charge what they’re worth. Thanks for giving us this meaningful anecdote!
Sure, but once you get popular, you raise the price. Price is simply supply and demand. If you're a new band and can't get gigs, you have little demand, therefore your price should be lower.
I was a drummer for a band. We were good and I made about 700. A night. The grunge era came in and these guys said to the club managers they'll do it for 50 bucks. We went to see how it went. They were awful! You can tell they didn't practice. It killed alot of business in my local scene. A lot of my musician buddies lost a lot of work those days.
Wise words as always. Its a shame that society and business have created a time where ppl seem to care less about quality and craftsmanship than low price...
I disagree about what the customer cares about. They want high quality and extreme craftsmanship. They always have and always will. It's the trade-offs that they are processing. Nobody can have everything so they aren't weighing the $6000 custom dinning room table vs the $600 IKEA table. They're weighing very nice high quality table vs functional convenient table + fridge + stove. I think it goes without saying that the customer wants the high quality custom work. When they're asking for discounts quite likely they just haven't realized they cannot afford it.
this applies to all good tradesmen dealt with this doing refrigeration and hvac when people want to lowball your 30 years of experience, many of my customers have been fired by me. way less stress great video.👍
Good video. It is annoying to have people trying to lowball me with less than the cost of materials.... Yet alone them expecting me to work for free and not paying myself for the time I put in.
All that you've said is so true . I have been in business hand crafting fine jewellery for over 30 years . I could not agree with you more. Discounting your work stipes the value and the asking client could not care less. Love your sight and I will stay tuned. Thank you
Some very good advice. Sometimes very hard to follow because you want to make the sale, and you start to second guess the quality of your work. As always keep up the great work you truly help so many of us newer woodworkers.
I literally just gave this vid a thumbs up in real life. These are hard lessons to learn. I'm still in the process of doing this. So thank you for the reminder!!! 👍
I see this in the quilting/sewing/embroidery world too. People think nothing of wanting to pay less than half of what someone has priced an item at. They think you just wave your hand and the item magically comes together. I know a quilter who was offered a pittance for a gorgeous king size quilt she made. She asked the person if they would work for $2/hr in their job. Of course they said no. So she asked them why she should. She then told them not only the cost of the fabric and supplies, but the dozens of hours put into making the quilt. Then she explained to them the costs of her sewing machine and her long arm quilting machine (over $10,000). They not only bought that quilt for full price, but custom ordered another quilt from her.
I know of a lady who has a long arm quilting machine worth $50k. All she does is or used to before she retired was doing custom stitch patterns and she used the income she generated to pay off the house they bought and everything else for the last 30 years. She still does it for friends and former customers at a discount now that she's retired so she doesn't feel like she has to be rushed to complete an order.
Sadly I was one of those people until I actually got into crocheting long ago and realized how much time and effort goes into these projects. I never asked for a discount but couldn't understand why it was so costly.
This is great stuff. It's not just woodworking either. My wife is trying to do a cookie business. She is really really good but in my opinion she charges way too little for what she produces and the time it takes. She was recently disappointed that someone who inquired about a cookie set ghosted her after she gave her new higher price. The thing is she needs to realize is she sells a premium luxury product and not everyone is in her customer base.
That’s funny, because I had a wealthy lawyer ask me to take more than half off my quote for a huge built in cabinet. My response was not to redpond. So very disrespectful
“I can buy something like that at Ikea for $100 less!” “And in three years you’ll have to buy another. Meanwhile, this coffee table will outlive your grandchildren.”
I politely say "yeah. Some people are ikea type people. I get that. You're an ikea kinda guy so maybe that's best for you! I'd just take your minivan there after you run to target and Starbucks for the day" They don't talk to me anymore.
Great advice and encouragement. Because many of us like to get a deal, we tend to empathize with the customer. At the same time we know if we want quality then we will pay more. The same applies to our customers. You are not hurting anyone by standing firm on a fair price. You are hurting yourself if you discount your products and you are killing the relationship with that customer. Building a relationship with customers is providing a quality product at a fair price. Thanks for the video.
I have watched a few of your videos and like your content but this series of how to charge properly and respond to clients as well as website advice is invaluable as I consider throwing my hat into the ring. Thanks, all videos liked and now I subscribed.
This is SO HELPFUL. I refinish furniture and do a few woodworking things, and I’ve been doing this full time for 6 years. I still struggle with confidence and pricing. This perspective is 🎯
Sir, this was probably the best delivery of value I’ve ever heard and I sold a premium brand of heavy equipment for 35 years. Well done! I enjoyed your friendly and trustworthy approach and a, now subscribed. Thank you
I have found that for a customer that keeps coming back I don’t do discounts, instead I make a small piece like a cutting board, spoon rest or a watch box if I notice they wear nice watches. I gift this item to them and say “I appreciate your business and I wanted to say thanks” this one thing got me a ton of business. I only did this for someone that bought multiple pieces and I built a relationship with. I miss it… I had to move and leave my shop behind
I'm a welder. same situation, different scenario. When someone wants me to cut my price I always reply with one thing: "Do not come to my shop if you want something done cheaper. Come to my shop when you want something done Better".
Thank you Matt 731 moving back New Zealand from Aussie Taking our machines and tools with us Will take on your-ways of dealing with the price for products with customers.
It's not just woodworking - used to have a yarn and fabric online business. Got a lot of, "If I buy a lot, can you drop the price?" It's small businesses that get this. I would always be polite and tell them that I could recommend another store to do business with.
fantastic info and perfect mindset. and, applies to any craft. as a leather crafter i hear the walmart remark often then show me what they got made of genuine leather not understanding that genuine leather is the particle board of leather lol. the simple fact is that as a skilled crafter, no matter what your medium as the artisan your knowledge, skill and experience come at a price and you, the artisan are not obligated to justify that price to an unwilling customer. your happy customers will repay you 10 fold over those that don't appreciate what it is you do. by, giving you repeat business as well as bringing you new customer. I will guarantee you that no-one is bragging up the quality of the item they bought at walmart
I'm not so young. And have been an "artist" & tinker-er ( lol, yeah I know) my entire life. Taking anything, making something somebody said I couldn't make with it.. But then...it wasn't about money. It was a "present" at Christmas time for said person.. 1) I proved to myself I could do what I said. Aka- self discipline 2) I proved to my, usually loved one, perhaps I could do more than they thought.. I had good parents..grand parents, family..and extended family. I'm only but a small reflection of truly great people I have had the privilege of having.in my life. Anyway, great tips .. Great video . Thanks!!
I run my own business and I watch these to see if I can say something better my usual response is I charge everyone the same, I have customers every once in a while that want me to make it or repair it at cost and I just let them no I don’t charge them more than other, but I also have customers that are repeats and I don’t change my price and they just say go ahead and it doesn’t mater to them how much it cost. But it’s always nice having those repeat customers, if you keep doing good work for them at an honest price they will keep coming back and let others know
I went to a wood working shot here in my town, I bought a big piece of Walnut(2in thick x 8.5w x 65ish in long)for $240. When he said the price my brother and I were shocked but we paid it. And the guy seeing that we were reluctant but still valued his expertise and selection that we can't get anywhere else threw in a few goodies for us. Plus he helps give us advice. I'll pay a premium for that anyday.
Some 15+ years ago, I did a job for a wallpaper store, where I constructed 12, 4x8 shelving units to hold all their wallpaper catalogs. They paid for the materials, (56 sheets of 3/4" panel-lam). These were quality shelving units trimmed out with 4" fluted molding and rosettes at the corners, painted black. I had to make the shelves heavy duty, as the catalogs were heavy and the units would be abused. As it were, I bid the project such to beat out the competition. After the project was completed, I calculated it up and found that I had basically made $2.69 / hour on the job. That was a hard lesson learned.
You take this advice and you will build a name for yourself, word of mouth will spread like wild fire, and you will NEVER be out of work. I started my business 8 yrs ago with someone giving me this same advice and I have never sat still wondering where the next job is gonna come from, in fact, I have to turn people away, but most of them are willing to wait, as long as 6 months!
"Not going to be beneficial for either of us". I like that statement, it really fits in some situations. If your customer needs a good deal on a beat up f150 to make trips to the dump, lowering the price on a Lexus is not helping either of you. If you are talking to someone who is planning on moving in a year, the used patio set on Facebook market place is probably the better option. Not everyone you talk to is going to be the right client for what you do, and that is OK. That is not every situation where someone wants a discount, but it is a nice idea to have in your head when it does come up.
Gr8 Video. After 35 years of my biz, when I get these chiseler types, and depending on my mood, I ask them any or all of the following (sarcastic) questions: - So, you won't care if there is no warranty? - You don't care then, that the item will be "as is"? - Great! So, you have an inexpensive material supplier? - Is this a "single use" item I'm asked to quote for you? And you are correct. Many times they've seen something at a discount place, or is discontinued, or is something that they really like, but haven't really found the true value (Uncle Dave bought this/similar item at a Garage sale for $50..), OR.. quite often, they just don't plain have enough budget to really do what they want, wasting both yours and their time. Also, I agree with you, I tend to find if a higher value is assigned to my handiwork, customers treat the result more like it's valuable, and has value. Last, if you cut your price that low: Disrespect, chiseling, and unreasonable demands for stupid-high standards can sometimes end up as your miserable companions. Heaven help you if you do something wrong..and have to do it all over again because they just don't "like" what you spent all your time on, following painstaking specs and requirements (yes, that happened once, never again.. Lost double on that one..) Better to quote a very high price - and have them walk.. than have to do a job where YOU are devalued by an uncaring customer. Keep up the great work! Appreciate the videos!
Great show , a Carpenter over 40 years, 4 gen , one thing we are artist that have to make a living in the real world. The one think I look for in a customer is respect , and I do the same.
Matt sage wisdom. I have a been a photographer for many years and have faced the same questions from customers. On weddings I would say, "which ones of your relatives do you want me to leave out when I shoot your wedding?" Almost always got them to thinking and turned the tide of the conversation. Thanks for your honest and truthful advice. I appreciate your channel very much!
While I haven't sold any of my wood working yet, I have a catering service & see this all the time. "When you charge what you're worth" is the best statement. If the customer had the same skill as you, they wouldn't be asking for a discount, they don't realize what your time & skill is worth. I raised my prices 25-30% from when I started 4 years ago and haven't lost any business. I have so many repeat customers
Had someone asked me to drop my price on a product. I declined, but at the same time listed the quality components used in building. That customer didn't buy, but another one did and liked the detail and stuffiness of the product and didn't flinch at the price.
Matt, thanks for all of the videos. My son and I recently made one of the farmhouse benches you shared plans for and had a great time during the build. We are planning on trying some of your other projects in the future. Thanks again and have a great day.
If you sit down with them and explain what they will get, or more importantly, what you will give them for the money and explain the quality craftsmanship they will receive, then there typically isn't a lot of asking for a lower price. Heck, I've even had the clients tell me that my presentation was what won them over, compared to other guys coming in their homes and charging a lot less money. It is all about the sale, and making them feel comfortable with you, as well as confident in you and your work, that makes them pay for your services. I've used this method in both carpentry/craftsman, handyman work as well as in car sales.
Some people like the sport of getting a lower price. To the point of walking away from a bargain because the seller won't take less. It took me a while to realize it was THEIR problem, not mine. I thought their was something wrong with my price. I had to learn (and still struggle) that not everyone was my customer. This was a helpful reminder said in another way to give me a different perspective. Thank you.
My biggest problem is that I don’t know what to charge folks. I’m relatively new at this and don’t really have confidence in my own products so feel as tho I need to charge less. I think with more practice I’ll start building my confidence, or at least I hope so. Heck, with the cost of wood I really can’t afford to build anything. I bought several 2x4’s for a couple projects I’m building and the cost was almost $200! Unfortunately, I’m in California so even the regular price of wood is high. I enjoy your insight Matt. God bless.
Thanks man. I'm slowly trying to build a business while doing full time carpentry work. I've always sold myself short when it comes to custom builds. I've always been a push over. The thought of telling a customer how much it will cost frightened me, because I didn't want to have the feeling that they were insulted etc. But the way you describe it makes sense and connects very well. Thank you!
I built a few items starting out that I sold a bit on the low side because they were not perfect. I was also comparing to something that was similar at Ikea. Home made or custom deserves a fair price. its not a mass produced piece. It is special the customer can say I know the builder. I charge a fair price now. some times when I quote a build they say it is a little to high for their budget. The only thing that I offer in order to lower the price a little is if they want to paint or finish it themselves. That saves me time and I don't mind because I can knock it out and get it out of my shop sooner to move on to the next thing.
It is standard practice to give an invoice as detailed as you choose to in your initial estimate. Generally covering material cost , labor ( for non- sole owner bidness) and calculated finish cost. If you follow the formulae on the other video you can show them that in response to the request to lower or discount price. It's generally as follows x board foot for project plus 20% wasteage plus estimated time of completion and if you followed the formula you can show them the math. Most clients \ customers will appreciate that and not stress.
It’s very easy for me now to say I can’t take less. But in the beginning I took every job for nothing. I broke even a lot, which in return did make bad customers. Now I’ve developed a system and I stick by it. My work now sells itself. Great video for those just starting out 👍🏻
Your studio is "Top Shelf"! Thank You for posting your videos because I learn something from each and every one of them and just starting out it's like working on a College Degree. Remember something I learned years ago "if you Love what you do then you will never work a day in your life!" Eyedaddy
My dad's dealt with this behavior from clients for years. Since they're retired businesspeople/professionals, it was good practice for my negotiations. Even if they cry the first time about price, if you can pull through with your services, they'll keep coming back.
During many years as a woodworker and decorative painter/remodeler I would come across potential customers that would say "I can take a class and do that myself!", to which I would encourage them to do so. If they successfully completed their project then they were good enough to do so and we're never going to be my customer. If they completed it with bad results then I would get a call to fix it and I would then have an appreciative customer. If they were satisfied with their bad results then they lacked taste and wouldn't appreciate my work anyway. In the end I gained a good customer.
My Woodworking Business Course and Community sawduststartups.com
My uncle had been hired by a customer to build a closet. They had set an hourly price for his labour. When he got to the job the customer wanted to lower the labor rate. My uncle agreed to the new rate and promptly returned his power tools to the truck and returned with only hand tools. The customer got the message and agreed to honor the rate originally agreed upon.
Hilarious. I already like your uncle.
I wanna be more like em if I get in a situation as such!! 😂
🤣🤣🤣🤣👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾 I love this!! 🤣🤣🤣
what a headache for your uncle customer 😂
Thats hilarious , if thats the case ill just take a billion years to finish the job
I’m a young floor installer and I’ll lever forget something one of my mentors told me. He was selling a higher end job and a customer asked for a price break so he calmly smiled, closed his laptop, picked up his samples, shook the customers hand, said have a great day and started to walk to the front door. The customer insulting said “well if that’s how you treat your customers you won’t stay in business very long”. My mentor still calmly replied with a smile “sir, this is precisely why my phone never stops ringing. I know my worth.” It changed the way I see my craft.
I have a friend who does cabinets, operates the same way. The minute you ask for cheaper he packs up and leaves, wont even say a word. He's been doing it for 15 years and is booked months in advance. He knows his work is worth the money.
A customer who immediately asks for a price break after agreeing to your quote to get you to show up, is the type of person who will constantly be chasing a cheaper price, and then...he will be the first to complain the most, and then threaten to ruin your reputation unless you give him even more for less. If he succeeds in squeezing you, and you let his do that, your prices will still never be low enough, and the hours you put in will also never be enough.
Had to deal with that a couple of times.
@@ronaldroberts7221 I always tell people the price I quoted up front was my best price, so if they think they can find it better then go with that vender. Then I tell them that I will remove the booking from my shop and persue other projects. I have a CNC router table that I make custom cabinets out of real wood not MDF on, and I always have projects lined up for months on end. So as much as I would like someones business I don't chase it.
@@joecooper8527 When I first started CNC carving I only asked for material costs up front and then the rest on delivery. I made someone a custom art piece for their front room and on delivery they tried to offer me less. I crated it back up and said that wasn't what we agreed to, so I am not taking that and you are not getting this. They said that its a custom piece for their family and I would have a hard time finding a buyer. I said that it is a custom piece for their family that's why it costs what it cost, but it will burn the very same as any other piece of wood in my fire pit.
And that was the most expensive fire I had in my backyard. They tried to do a BBB complaint, I presented the contract, pictures of the finished work, emails in between multiple stages of the project where they said it was beautiful and were happy. And then told them that after all that work they didn't pay the price and then submitted expenses in electricity and tooling / programming time that I had invested that I wouldn't be recouping back.
The complaint was removed and I had justification according to the BBB to take them to small claims court. But this wouldn't have been worth it from a time perspective I took the loss and I now take half the money up front (my cost in time, materials, electricity and a standard 7% consumable per hour of table time to cover my CNC router bits being worn / replaced.) the other half is my profit. If they don't want to pay my price at the end, I only lost the profit over and above my hourly charge out rate.
Once, I posted a picture of a bench I made and i wanted to sell, and one guy asked me: "How low can you go with this bench?" I replied: 14", lower than that and the bench is not comfortable anymore...
Never heard from that guy ever again...
Ultimately, my wife loved them so much (I made 2) that we kept them...
Thanks, Matt for the advice, as usual!
Love it. My kind of humor. I've been asked to lower my price but my response is to raise my price by that same amount. It shocks them.
Love that answer
🤣
I've done similar by coming back with a higher price.
LMAO!!!!
I've been in construction for close to 30 years and one of my mentors showed me a way to handle people who always try to beat your price down and usually shut them up if not I walk away. It's simple I tell them that they can have two of these three things good,fast,and cheap if you want it good and fast it's not going to be cheap, if you want it fast and cheap it not going to be good and if you want it to be good and cheap well then it's definitely not going to be fast
“You’re creating bad customers.” Great line and so true. Listen to Matt. He knows what’s up!
@Alex Reid Exactly. There's some customers that you just don't want. They will always want to pay you less than what you ask for & they will demand more of your time vs everyone else. If they actually bring you new customers, they too will probably be asking for discounts from the start.
@@barklordofthesith2997 Isn't there something about birds of a feather flocking together?
As someone that has been in sales for 40+ years, the answer to the statement "your price is too high" is this.... "AND?" Please understand that they have not ASKED FOR ANYTHING.... they have only made a statement, hoping you will drop your price. Put the pressure back on them by reversing the statement with a question, by saying "And?" Make them explain what they are saying.... most of the time they will relent and back away. They know that your worth it, just trying to negotiate so don't give in. If they say that they will have to go elsewhere, then and only then do you have the information you need to decide what to do.. take the job at a discount or walk away. It's now, your choice, not the customers. ALWAYS PUT THE PRESSURE ON THE CUSTOMER, NOT YOURSELF.... trust me, this is fun when you win!
Jim Camp's "Start With NO!". Using "Connectors" like that "AND?" The point is to enter their world, get them to talk, find out what's going on - for THEM. Also "Reversals" - put the question back on them. Then "hotline" 'em a little bit by labeling their feelings - Sounds like it's more than you can afford? or maybe - Sounds like more than you care to spend? Keep it in their world. Tell them what you think you are hearing them say. Let them correct you. When they are talking and you are listening then you are winning. And, yah, it IZ fun!
Sometimes a customer just can't afford my work. So, you can tell them that if they ask for a discount or say the quote is too high. "I understand, not everyone can afford this kind of product."
So well said. I've gone through that enough times when I was a plumber. Discount immediately means discount forever, and you better hope they don't refer you to friends.
yup nailed it
I've done renovation work for 21 years. A few years in I got a customer that always wanted to pay less. He tried his best to lower the price of the bill after the fact. My response was "why should I devalue my own work?". This was a response he didn't expect, but it's true, and he ended up paying. You have to establish yourself through your pricing and quality of work. Another customer told me my estimate was too much, but if I lowered my price, he would have a lot of work for me in the future. Great, I can have devalued work and lots of it! It takes a bit of practice to stand your ground, but it gets easier.
I only disagree with one thing if someone starts off with I can buy this cheaper at.... I respond with "absolutely and you should buy it if you are price shopping. I never waste time on people like that by going into detail justifying my prices
That's my approach as well. This is my price and that is it, I am not retail chain that price matches on the same item / sku. I know what my costs are down to the KW/H for running my wood working equipment and some jobs just are not economically viable for me to do. So my quoted price is already my best price, because my intention is to always double my money on every job, and that has always been the rule of thumb for building and fabricating.
I add, don't loose my number for when you need the job redone.
Spot on, Matt. I had someone offer $75 for a $325 console table. I didn't even respond to that one. I've had "can you take $20 less"? I politely respond that I've priced my piece fair considering the work and craftsmanship I put into it. That person came back with, "ok, I'll take it, just thought I'd try". But, the vast majority don't question it. And yes, repeat customers make my day! It's a validation that you're doing it right! For those new, I'd just say get to the point that your product is quality, stand firm on price, and be polite. Thanks for the video, Matt. Keep up the good work!
I would try to explain to that person, WHY the price is what it is... sometimes people are just trying to nickel and dime you, and those people arent worth the time, but there are also a certain amount of people that are actually afraid that they are getting ripped off.... those people would probably greatly benefit from a friendly conversation about WHY the price is what it is... it would help them understand that they are not getting ripped of, and may also help them to trust you a bit more which could lead to more jobs and good word of mouth...
My fav is "it's just a couple pieces of wood" I then tell them, alright, ill sell you the wood and you can invest 20-30k in tools and the time for skills to make it.
LOL Your 20-30k for tools ? Try being a doctor. (I get your point though.)
@@Sondan1988 what's the point in you saying that? To brag about being a dr? Was that stethoscope expensive? Do you have your own practice? If not what did you buy that which the hospital/ clinic already has in droves?
@@WilsonRA.2 you don't want to have a real discussion. Good luck
I'll buy Ikea, assemble it myself with a screwdriver, and read about you going out of business next year. How about that? I'm in my 60's, and have less than 10-things that are over 20-years old...with ALMOST ALL furniture that came and went along the way...most to roadside trash 'freebies'...even an 1898 victorian table...so yeah...Ikea...beats moving trucks and storage fees!
@@Sondan1988 you didn't understand what they were saying at all
I'm setting up at a craft show tomorrow and this is the exact video I needed. I'm setting my prices to what I think their worth based on prices I've seen other places and what I've seen on sights such as Etsy. My response will be exactly this if someone says their too high. Thanks for the great videos and advice on not only the woodworking business, but on life as well. I am currently broke as well, but I have several hundred board feet of cherry lumber, skills and tools to build awesome projects, a good work ethic, and a loving family that means more than any of that. I know all of that along with blessings from God will carry us through. I've seen some of your videos on the situation you were in and it gives me hope for the future. Thanks again!
I had a lady recently ask me to build her a porch swing then asked for quote so I gave her my quote she said ok go ahead with the build and I did built it the she proceeded to tell me she thinks my price was to hi and didnt want if I couldnt accept what she thought was a good price so I explained to her what she was offering you could buy wood with let alone the rest of the materials needed so I kindly told her I'd just keep it and I posted it on fb market place and sold it no problem now any thing I build over 75.00 I request a non refundable deposit it let's me know I'm not wasting my time and theirs and it seems to be working out good this away
I always ask for cash in full up front. Granted I don't charge labor so the equiv for you would be material cost up front. This way if someone backs out I am not out anything but time which I was giving for free anyway.
@Dan Holt dont be a Karen
I really enjoy your to the point videos, I have sold for less than I should have charged, I started to form a mindset “what’s the point” because you feel no one appreciates you work. Which is not good for your long term business. Thanks for your wisdom much appreciated. It’s a little deflating sometimes when people say “I love your work, but then walk away after looking at the price and then some people say your charging to little, ha ha you can’t win.
I agree with everything you said. I sell small items for less that $150.00 and one time I was asked to use cheaper wood. I don't do that because their friends will see the item and lack of quality and that will hurt me more.
I know a guy that prices his items 20% over what he would normally charge, then when someone asks for a discount he says "how does 10% sound?" Most people will jump on it and very few will ask for 15%, but even so he still comes out making more than what he would have sold it for anyway.
That's one strategy. The danger is that 20% higher could drive away potential customers when they won't even consider an item at that price level.
Personally, I'd rather purchase from someone who knows what they and their products are worth and price it appropriately the first time. But that's just me.
@@spiralnapkin yeah it's going to be dependant on the items being sold and your local market, it has been working for him for several years now.
@@spiralnapkin I have a spreadsheet that I made that calculates out my costs to produce something based down to electricity and a 7% standard consumable fee on all items. I mainly do CNC work (cabinets, decorative columns, wallart, custom moldings, child growth tree's.) so I know how much time it will take me on my table to do these projects and I know what I get charged for KW/H and I know roughly how much setup time / materials will go into it and the 7% is to cover my routerbits getting worn down over time.
Generally speaking I take my costs, and add a 40-50% margin on it. So if something costs me 100$'s to make I will charge them 140$'s to 150$'s and if they order a bunch of the same thing , I will show them what I quote for qty:1 , qty:5, qty: 10 etc. So they can see the benefit of buying in bulk if it is the sort of thing they'd be interested in.
Yep. I made that mistake because I didn't have any confidence in the quality of my work. The comparisons she was making were to WallyWorld and Ikea! But, I caved. What eventually happened was rather than pricing myself out of sales was to price myself out of the ability to support more projects. In no time at all, I was scrambling for materials, making smaller and smaller projects out of scraps from previous projects, until I ran out of scraps AND money. Like putting $5 worth of gas in your car when you need $10 to get where you're going. Do NOT undersell your work! Ever!
Wow, this applies to every profession! I wish I had heard this 20 years ago. I have made the same journey where today I can stand firm by my price, knowing I’m worth it. I would have earned a lot more had I known this long ago. Thanks!
As a new woodworker it's easy to doubt your level of worth. This video helps alot and to be prepared for the ones that asks these kind of questions, they are everywhere lol so thanks again for talking about it 🛠
Good video topic. I'm retired in Mexico and started woodworking a few months ago as a hobby for my own needs, however, I get approached by the locals here all the time to do wood projects for them. I didn't expect this to happen and wasn't prepared to quote prices. At first, I charged next to nothing until research revealed a common hourly rate, which I am now using for the time being. I've been self-employed (USA) and can appreciate the information you're sharing in this video, especially about charging different people different rates for the same work. Word travels. People get upset when others are paying less for the same work. And you can't blame them. Though I don't need the extra income from woodworking, I will charge for my time and experience regardless. Thanks.
Matt, I’m a female who recently got into woodworking, and your videos have been sooo helpful to me! Really love your straightforward approach and calm nature. Thank you for your valuable advice!
Great advice!
Don't budge. Offer them a quantity discount, and make the quantity high. That way you can batch them out and save time. and time is money.
I am new to the concept of woodworking for a living/job. I am currently a truck driver gone all week and only home for 35-45 hours on the weekend. Thank you for explaining a lot of things. Keep it up, your helping me and many others.
I'd like to say thank you. Been struggling in life to figure out my place. I stopped being a lukewarm Christian just recently. Reading the good book has led me to answers, and also led me to your videos. I don't believe in coincidences at all. So again.....thank you for the honest content! God bless!!!
Love the advice. So far I think I’ve done well for being 9 months into this craft. The best thing I’ve learned is by steadily increasing my prices I’ve allowed my quality to increase with it. By charging more I have more room to use better products and keep the stress of going over budget off my shoulders. And as you mentioned being stressed is when the most mistakes are made. That’s something I wish I knew when I started.
Well said. Unfortunately some people never learn the connection between stress, mistakes, and job satisfaction. When you're morale is good, you do good work :)
A business coach/friend used to tell me - CHARGE MORE and DO MORE. And in THAT order. Following that really changes things.
My answer to a discount request is to let them know that I am don't need to do it for the "practice", I know what I am doing... Or just give them the price that reflects the quality that you are giving. Good work is never cheap and cheap work is never good.
Your words couldn’t be more true and are a great reminder of what we are all worth.
I’m a career violinist and can’t tell you how many times a wedding couple asks me to work for less or venue owner says I can perform free and get lots of exposure. Nope. Not gonna happen. I’ve lost clients over the years because i stood firm on my price, but it’s opened up other opportunities. But there will always be someone out there that will do it for less. Wal Mart or IKEA less, like you say.
Thanks for the good pep talk.
Hi mate, I’m a painter in Australia. Great advice. We have the same over here, people who think you should give them a discount just because they want one. These people are like bloody seagulls, if you give them a discount once, they will assume that is the regular price for them and never leave you alone. Your time will be spent servicing customers who want more and more for less. You have to decide what type of customer you want to deal with. The type that is happy to pay a premium for premium quality and service is who you want to deal with, and build a long term business relationship with. My mentor once told
me “take care of the people who take care of you”. Great advice for business and life in general
My father owned an automotive repair shop, he taught me that if 15% of potential customers didn't go somewhere else when you quoted them a price you weren't charging enough. For family he'd work for free, no one else got a discount ever. He used to say if customers can't afford you, you can't afford them either. In my time operating a small business I found he was right. The fastest way to go broke is to be the cheapest deal in town selling to the cheapest and or poorest customers.
I've been selling for a few years at craft shows and FB. I've had a few on FB lowball me - like barely more than the materials cost - or ask for me to "add a freebie." My prices are what they are. They're fair for the quality of work I do and I don't to sell to you since this is a hobby that pays for itself. Since my last show was kind of a bust I've got enough inventory for the next show and can do some projects for myself.
I run an electrical service business and I have been asked this a bit, so I understand what you are saying. I have implemented this in both electrical and my woodworking. Thank you for sharing your information in this video.
I have been a professional pricing analyst in corporate America for 20 years. I am also a woodworker on the side. There have been many studies done to find the sweet spot that will maximize your profits. A very simple rule of thumb that anyone can use is that you should set a price point so that your estimates get rejected 17% to 20% of the time. Now it takes a little while to figure that out but when you do you should maximize your profit margins compared to you expenses and capital outlay. There are always exceptions to this rule especially when material prices and inflation kick in but it's a start. Great video and keep plugging away.
Interesting post. Unfortunately because it has been posted a few months after the video it may get lost in the other posts, which is a shame, as many people would benefit from reading this.
Man, this probably sounds strange but, I wish I had a dad like you growing up. Not sure how else to say that lol just wish I had someone to guide me and give me good advice and to teach me
👊
It's not strange brother. many of us would have benefited with better role models around 💯💯💯
me too, so I adopted Paul sellers a couple years ago, lol. He still wont recognize me and I have yet to receive the papers back in the mail...
I agree.
Not strange at all :)
I'm in a somewhat related boat but kind of on the other side; I *did* have a dad like this, but at the time I was more interested in other things - things that have served me well, mind, but now that I'm older and finally learning woodworking, I wish I had had that interest back then. Dude was a powerhouse of knowledge and experience and I kinda pissed away that opportunity.
Thankfully though I couldn't help but absorb some of it, especially the principles behind it.
Awesome video! I don’t actually do woodworking but DO have a job where this comes up regularly so still applicable. Thank you.
Clamps: after more than two decades of owning and operating a hardwood flooring company I ran into a few customers that wanted a lower price. Your responses were correct, but sometimes you have to simply tell them to use someone else. By the way, your new studio looks great! God bless you and yours. -Rick, USMC
Thank you
Thanks Matt. I'm Dave and this past Feb. My father passed away from Covid 19 and Pneumoniaand top of his Luekemia and Stage 3 Kidney disease. Needless to say its been a very hard and difficult time for all of us. There were nights I got so frustrated with not knowing how to use certain tools or not knowing what kind of jobs certain tools did.. None the less I was at an all time low because I felt no self worth and felt useless trying to help my siblings and mom. It got to the point I went to the local lake, was yelling at my dad for leaving us to early, i put my razor knife to my wrist and started to apply pressure, i wanted to join him in heaven.The blade started to !cut my skin when I heard
my dad say"Look up son. "At that very moment 2 pieces of cedar driftwood floated ashore. I collected them up and went home . I knew I had to make something from them for my mom honoring my dad. I made a Cross thats approx 3' tall and 2' wide for her. That my my start into woodworking. I can honestly say, woodworking saved my life and your TH-cam videos give me the advice I need, the advice I didn't listen to from my dad all those years he tried to teach me, and have helped me not only in woodworking but in life in general and I true believe your show keeps my head high and gives me my strength to keep working the wood. THANK YOU FROM THE BOTTOM OF MY HEART. KEEP UP THE GREAT WORK.
Listen to Matt. He's absolutely right! You ARE creating memories for people. I think you'd be surprised just how hard it is to find solid, quality wood products. Seriously. As much as you may think everybody and his brother is suddenly woodworking and producing great projects, they really aren't. A lot of them aren't consistent in their quality, are grossly overpriced, or are too specialized (meaning they made something so distinct that maybe 1 person in a million could appreciate it). Then, there are those who only do "quickie" projects, the small, repeatable projects they can bulk build (like pre-built noodle boards or cutting boards) which are great, but need to serve as a jumping off point to a more diverse product array. Gotta' grow boys. At least by changing up some of the design features of the stuff you do (which is harder to do if you're bulking everything).
My point is, there are TONS of people out there who are just like you: they appreciate the beauty of solid wood products and don't mind stretching their pocket books to get them because they don't want to buy them again, year after year. Buy Once, Buy Right. I can't always afford the very best of the most desirable products on the market, but I sure as heck don't settle for dirt cheap stuff that looks good and falls apart faster than I can put it together. I, like many people out there, would rather buy one piece at a time and get great stuff than buy a bedroom suite in a box made out of wood chips and Elmer's glue. If you build some of Matt's stuff, a piece at a time, and your customers know you'll be available to add to their collection later, you'll sell you projects. Don't worry.
Studio looks great! Solid advice! I had to learn this lesson the hard way. Sell a couple of medium difficulty projects under what they're worth and you start to question why you're even doing this. Haha
Fantastic advice for anyone selling their produts, not just woodworkers. Great video.
I'm not a woodworker but a diesel mechanic and this video came up on my suggested and every single point in this video applies the same, your paying for the knowledge and experience and also the pride a woodworker or mechanic takes in their work.
Great advice. Price of wood is too high right now to give discounts.
Thanks Matt! This video couldn't have better timing, I'm working on a special custom request from a returning customer and I was doubtful of what I was charging, but to be honest, I'm extremely proud of how this is turning out, in terms of design, materials, how unique it actually is, but I was afraid I was charging too much, and as usual, you reminded me I have to believe in myself. Thanks!
Glad I could help!
How did it go ?
Was the customer happy? Are you happy with the price you took ?
I don't do a lot of wood working. I make art with throw away products around the home. These people that need a break......but they buy their kids $300 nikes.....no. I've been approached and asked these questions. I've been hit with, it's really ugly. But they have also comeback and asked, have you sold that piece I'm interested in.....yes I have. I've sold it go a happy customer that's commissioned more. I'm never hateful, short, or mean. I'm very humble. I usually tell them, thank you for looking. I've also told a few, bless uour heart. If you're from the south, you get it!
It’s very important to have a price that’s fair to both you and the customer. I’ve been a drummer for many years, and early on, the band I was in decided we should charge very little to “get our name out there.” We knew another group that charged $600 for a four-hour party, so when we were asked what we would charge, we said $300. Our name got out alright; we were soon known as “that band that charges half as much” and “got” many more $300 gigs than we could handle. So, don’t undersell yourself unless you plan to continue to do it!
This is an amazing simple example Dennis! I used to caution my sales team that if their customers were too “busy”, they were not priced correctly and the best thing my salesman could do for them was to help them charge what they’re worth. Thanks for giving us this meaningful anecdote!
I am a drummer too and I can totally relate.
I'm a keyboard player and i hear ya. It's sometimes just not worth showing up.
Sure, but once you get popular, you raise the price. Price is simply supply and demand. If you're a new band and can't get gigs, you have little demand, therefore your price should be lower.
I was a drummer for a band. We were good and I made about 700. A night. The grunge era came in and these guys said to the club managers they'll do it for 50 bucks. We went to see how it went. They were awful! You can tell they didn't practice. It killed alot of business in my local scene. A lot of my musician buddies lost a lot of work those days.
Wise words as always. Its a shame that society and business have created a time where ppl seem to care less about quality and craftsmanship than low price...
I disagree about what the customer cares about. They want high quality and extreme craftsmanship. They always have and always will. It's the trade-offs that they are processing. Nobody can have everything so they aren't weighing the $6000 custom dinning room table vs the $600 IKEA table.
They're weighing very nice high quality table vs functional convenient table + fridge + stove. I think it goes without saying that the customer wants the high quality custom work. When they're asking for discounts quite likely they just haven't realized they cannot afford it.
this applies to all good tradesmen
dealt with this doing refrigeration and hvac when people want to lowball your 30 years of experience,
many of my customers have been fired by me. way less stress
great video.👍
Good video. It is annoying to have people trying to lowball me with less than the cost of materials.... Yet alone them expecting me to work for free and not paying myself for the time I put in.
All that you've said is so true . I have been in business hand crafting fine jewellery for over 30 years . I could not agree with you more.
Discounting your work stipes the value and the asking client could not care less. Love your sight and I will stay tuned. Thank you
Some very good advice. Sometimes very hard to follow because you want to make the sale, and you start to second guess the quality of your work. As always keep up the great work you truly help so many of us newer woodworkers.
I literally just gave this vid a thumbs up in real life. These are hard lessons to learn. I'm still in the process of doing this. So thank you for the reminder!!! 👍
I like the studio. Very professional.
I see this in the quilting/sewing/embroidery world too. People think nothing of wanting to pay less than half of what someone has priced an item at. They think you just wave your hand and the item magically comes together. I know a quilter who was offered a pittance for a gorgeous king size quilt she made. She asked the person if they would work for $2/hr in their job. Of course they said no. So she asked them why she should. She then told them not only the cost of the fabric and supplies, but the dozens of hours put into making the quilt. Then she explained to them the costs of her sewing machine and her long arm quilting machine (over $10,000).
They not only bought that quilt for full price, but custom ordered another quilt from her.
I know of a lady who has a long arm quilting machine worth $50k. All she does is or used to before she retired was doing custom stitch patterns and she used the income she generated to pay off the house they bought and everything else for the last 30 years. She still does it for friends and former customers at a discount now that she's retired so she doesn't feel like she has to be rushed to complete an order.
Sadly I was one of those people until I actually got into crocheting long ago and realized how much time and effort goes into these projects. I never asked for a discount but couldn't understand why it was so costly.
This is great stuff. It's not just woodworking either. My wife is trying to do a cookie business. She is really really good but in my opinion she charges way too little for what she produces and the time it takes. She was recently disappointed that someone who inquired about a cookie set ghosted her after she gave her new higher price. The thing is she needs to realize is she sells a premium luxury product and not everyone is in her customer base.
I hear this all the time. A lawyer who charges $500/hr tried to weasel me down on a $150 teak end grain cutting board.
lol typical, a lot of times people with money are the worst.
@@clintkoevort3756 Yeah, and I don't charge beans for my labor.
@@bicyclesammi0757 yup especially if its good quality
That’s funny, because I had a wealthy lawyer ask me to take more than half off my quote for a huge built in cabinet. My response was not to redpond. So very disrespectful
Wow! You are a one stop shop for woodworkers. You are answering my questions before me knowing I need to ask this question.
👊🏻
“I can buy something like that at Ikea for $100 less!”
“And in three years you’ll have to buy another. Meanwhile, this coffee table will outlive your grandchildren.”
Of course you can’t say that if they have grandchildren.
@@jkdubya85 actually even more so.
I politely say "yeah. Some people are ikea type people. I get that. You're an ikea kinda guy so maybe that's best for you! I'd just take your minivan there after you run to target and Starbucks for the day"
They don't talk to me anymore.
El Guapo, some people like to have a plethora of coffee tables 🤣
@@luisg1653 oh.....nice use of the word "plethora"!
Great advice and encouragement. Because many of us like to get a deal, we tend to empathize with the customer. At the same time we know if we want quality then we will pay more. The same applies to our customers. You are not hurting anyone by standing firm on a fair price. You are hurting yourself if you discount your products and you are killing the relationship with that customer. Building a relationship with customers is providing a quality product at a fair price. Thanks for the video.
Thanks Matt I felt my shoulders straighten up and my chest puff out after watching this !
I have watched a few of your videos and like your content but this series of how to charge properly and respond to clients as well as website advice is invaluable as I consider throwing my hat into the ring. Thanks, all videos liked and now I subscribed.
Excellent advice, all the way around! Know your worth & charge accordingly.
Honest. Transparent. Firm. I love it!
This is SO HELPFUL. I refinish furniture and do a few woodworking things, and I’ve been doing this full time for 6 years. I still struggle with confidence and pricing. This perspective is 🎯
I get what your saying. I do the same thing.
Sir, this was probably the best delivery of value I’ve ever heard and I sold a premium brand of heavy equipment for 35 years. Well done! I enjoyed your friendly and trustworthy approach and a, now subscribed. Thank you
Glad it was helpful! Thank you
Great video. But I'm guilty of waiting for lower prices. That why I jumped on your plans bundle package.
I have found that for a customer that keeps coming back I don’t do discounts, instead I make a small piece like a cutting board, spoon rest or a watch box if I notice they wear nice watches. I gift this item to them and say “I appreciate your business and I wanted to say thanks” this one thing got me a ton of business. I only did this for someone that bought multiple pieces and I built a relationship with. I miss it… I had to move and leave my shop behind
I'm a welder. same situation, different scenario.
When someone wants me to cut my price I always reply with one thing: "Do not come to my shop if you want something done cheaper. Come to my shop when you want something done Better".
Thank you Matt 731 moving back New Zealand from Aussie
Taking our machines and tools with us
Will take on your-ways of dealing with the price for products with customers.
It's not just woodworking - used to have a yarn and fabric online business. Got a lot of, "If I buy a lot, can you drop the price?" It's small businesses that get this. I would always be polite and tell them that I could recommend another store to do business with.
fantastic info and perfect mindset. and, applies to any craft. as a leather crafter i hear the walmart remark often then show me what they got made of genuine leather not understanding that genuine leather is the particle board of leather lol. the simple fact is that as a skilled crafter, no matter what your medium as the artisan your knowledge, skill and experience come at a price and you, the artisan are not obligated to justify that price to an unwilling customer. your happy customers will repay you 10 fold over those that don't appreciate what it is you do. by, giving you repeat business as well as bringing you new customer. I will guarantee you that no-one is bragging up the quality of the item they bought at walmart
I'm not so young. And have been an "artist" & tinker-er ( lol, yeah I know) my entire life. Taking anything, making something somebody said I couldn't make with it..
But then...it wasn't about money.
It was a "present" at Christmas time for said person..
1) I proved to myself I could do what I said.
Aka- self discipline
2) I proved to my, usually loved one, perhaps I could do more than they thought..
I had good parents..grand parents, family..and extended family.
I'm only but a small reflection of truly great people I have had the privilege of having.in my life.
Anyway, great tips ..
Great video . Thanks!!
I run my own business and I watch these to see if I can say something better my usual response is I charge everyone the same, I have customers every once in a while that want me to make it or repair it at cost and I just let them no I don’t charge them more than other, but I also have customers that are repeats and I don’t change my price and they just say go ahead and it doesn’t mater to them how much it cost. But it’s always nice having those repeat customers, if you keep doing good work for them at an honest price they will keep coming back and let others know
I went to a wood working shot here in my town, I bought a big piece of Walnut(2in thick x 8.5w x 65ish in long)for $240. When he said the price my brother and I were shocked but we paid it. And the guy seeing that we were reluctant but still valued his expertise and selection that we can't get anywhere else threw in a few goodies for us. Plus he helps give us advice. I'll pay a premium for that anyday.
I’m in the entertainment business and another entertainer friend sent this to me. We go through the same thing, too. Great info. Thanks.
Some 15+ years ago, I did a job for a wallpaper store, where I constructed 12, 4x8 shelving units to hold all their wallpaper catalogs. They paid for the materials, (56 sheets of 3/4" panel-lam). These were quality shelving units trimmed out with 4" fluted molding and rosettes at the corners, painted black. I had to make the shelves heavy duty, as the catalogs were heavy and the units would be abused.
As it were, I bid the project such to beat out the competition. After the project was completed, I calculated it up and found that I had basically made $2.69 / hour on the job. That was a hard lesson learned.
You take this advice and you will build a name for yourself, word of mouth will spread like wild fire, and you will NEVER be out of work. I started my business 8 yrs ago with someone giving me this same advice and I have never sat still wondering where the next job is gonna come from, in fact, I have to turn people away, but most of them are willing to wait, as long as 6 months!
"Not going to be beneficial for either of us". I like that statement, it really fits in some situations. If your customer needs a good deal on a beat up f150 to make trips to the dump, lowering the price on a Lexus is not helping either of you. If you are talking to someone who is planning on moving in a year, the used patio set on Facebook market place is probably the better option. Not everyone you talk to is going to be the right client for what you do, and that is OK. That is not every situation where someone wants a discount, but it is a nice idea to have in your head when it does come up.
Gr8 Video. After 35 years of my biz, when I get these chiseler types, and depending on my mood, I ask them any or all of the following (sarcastic) questions:
- So, you won't care if there is no warranty?
- You don't care then, that the item will be "as is"?
- Great! So, you have an inexpensive material supplier?
- Is this a "single use" item I'm asked to quote for you?
And you are correct. Many times they've seen something at a discount place, or is discontinued, or is something that they really like, but haven't really found the true value (Uncle Dave bought this/similar item at a Garage sale for $50..), OR.. quite often, they just don't plain have enough budget to really do what they want, wasting both yours and their time.
Also, I agree with you, I tend to find if a higher value is assigned to my handiwork, customers treat the result more like it's valuable, and has value.
Last, if you cut your price that low: Disrespect, chiseling, and unreasonable demands for stupid-high standards can sometimes end up as your miserable companions. Heaven help you if you do something wrong..and have to do it all over again because they just don't "like" what you spent all your time on, following painstaking specs and requirements (yes, that happened once, never again.. Lost double on that one..)
Better to quote a very high price - and have them walk.. than have to do a job where YOU are devalued by an uncaring customer.
Keep up the great work! Appreciate the videos!
Great show , a Carpenter over 40 years, 4 gen , one thing we are artist that have to make a living in the real world. The one think I look for in a customer is respect , and I do the same.
Matt sage wisdom. I have a been a photographer for many years and have faced the same questions from customers. On weddings I would say, "which ones of your relatives do you want me to leave out when I shoot your wedding?" Almost always got them to thinking and turned the tide of the conversation. Thanks for your honest and truthful advice. I appreciate your channel very much!
While I haven't sold any of my wood working yet, I have a catering service & see this all the time. "When you charge what you're worth" is the best statement. If the customer had the same skill as you, they wouldn't be asking for a discount, they don't realize what your time & skill is worth. I raised my prices 25-30% from when I started 4 years ago and haven't lost any business. I have so many repeat customers
I can apply this wisdom to my cleaning business as well. I dabble in wood and creative projects on weekends.
Had someone asked me to drop my price on a product. I declined, but at the same time listed the quality components used in building. That customer didn't buy, but another one did and liked the detail and stuffiness of the product and didn't flinch at the price.
Matt, thanks for all of the videos. My son and I recently made one of the farmhouse benches you shared plans for and had a great time during the build. We are planning on trying some of your other projects in the future. Thanks again and have a great day.
Great video, I’ve had these conversations with customers regarding pen prices...great and thoughtful responses.
The exact same for visual Artists!!!! Great advice!!! PEACE family, and God bless.
Exactly the video I needed to watch to be confident in my pricing and dealing with customers
If you sit down with them and explain what they will get, or more importantly, what you will give them for the money and explain the quality craftsmanship they will receive, then there typically isn't a lot of asking for a lower price.
Heck, I've even had the clients tell me that my presentation was what won them over, compared to other guys coming in their homes and charging a lot less money. It is all about the sale, and making them feel comfortable with you, as well as confident in you and your work, that makes them pay for your services.
I've used this method in both carpentry/craftsman, handyman work as well as in car sales.
Some people like the sport of getting a lower price. To the point of walking away from a bargain because the seller won't take less. It took me a while to realize it was THEIR problem, not mine. I thought their was something wrong with my price. I had to learn (and still struggle) that not everyone was my customer. This was a helpful reminder said in another way to give me a different perspective. Thank you.
My biggest problem is that I don’t know what to charge folks. I’m relatively new at this and don’t really have confidence in my own products so feel as tho I need to charge less. I think with more practice I’ll start building my confidence, or at least I hope so. Heck, with the cost of wood I really can’t afford to build anything. I bought several 2x4’s for a couple projects I’m building and the cost was almost $200! Unfortunately, I’m in California so even the regular price of wood is high. I enjoy your insight Matt. God bless.
Thanks man. I'm slowly trying to build a business while doing full time carpentry work. I've always sold myself short when it comes to custom builds. I've always been a push over. The thought of telling a customer how much it will cost frightened me, because I didn't want to have the feeling that they were insulted etc. But the way you describe it makes sense and connects very well. Thank you!
I am new!!! Raising 2 grandchildren..I want to try woodworking...I hope I excel and hang onto my worth and value!!! Thank you
This is excellent advise. It goes for all sales and every new business person should live by it.
I built a few items starting out that I sold a bit on the low side because they were not perfect. I was also comparing to something that was similar at Ikea. Home made or custom deserves a fair price. its not a mass produced piece. It is special the customer can say I know the builder. I charge a fair price now. some times when I quote a build they say it is a little to high for their budget.
The only thing that I offer in order to lower the price a little is if they want to paint or finish it themselves. That saves me time and I don't mind because I can knock it out and get it out of my shop sooner to move on to the next thing.
It is standard practice to give an invoice as detailed as you choose to in your initial estimate. Generally covering material cost , labor ( for non- sole owner bidness) and calculated finish cost.
If you follow the formulae on the other video you can show them that in response to the request to lower or discount price.
It's generally as follows x board foot for project plus 20% wasteage plus estimated time of completion and if you followed the formula you can show them the math. Most clients \ customers will appreciate that and not stress.
Thank you!!!! Great advice and video. I tell people I don't do this to make a living. I do it to be valued. I'm not selling fast food here.
very very wise advise !!!! couldnt agree more !!
It’s very easy for me now to say I can’t take less. But in the beginning I took every job for nothing. I broke even a lot, which in return did make bad customers. Now I’ve developed a system and I stick by it. My work now sells itself. Great video for those just starting out 👍🏻
Your studio is "Top Shelf"! Thank You for posting your videos because I learn something from each and every one of them and just starting out it's like working on a College Degree. Remember something I learned years ago "if you Love what you do then you will never work a day in your life!"
Eyedaddy
My dad's dealt with this behavior from clients for years. Since they're retired businesspeople/professionals, it was good practice for my negotiations. Even if they cry the first time about price, if you can pull through with your services, they'll keep coming back.
During many years as a woodworker and decorative painter/remodeler I would come across potential customers that would say "I can take a class and do that myself!", to which I would encourage them to do so. If they successfully completed their project then they were good enough to do so and we're never going to be my customer. If they completed it with bad results then I would get a call to fix it and I would then have an appreciative customer. If they were satisfied with their bad results then they lacked taste and wouldn't appreciate my work anyway. In the end I gained a good customer.