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Actually for the price of the P2 for another $2000 you can look into a full blown 80 - 100 W Co2 laser, floor model water cooled with a much larger bed and self contained. Depends on what you want to do. P2 is still a hobby craft unit the xtra $2000 gets you a full blown very fast production unit. I use a Rabbit 100W floor model Co2 at work all self contained, runs 24/7, It's only issue like all Co2 units is you must keep the lens properly clean. Even this won't cut metal though.
You have dirty cuts from your diode laser for the same reason your honey comb is getting so filthy, you need a 'down draft'. Down draft is a 'must' because your respirator doesn't protect your skin. Lasers don't burn, they 'oblate' by impacting an area w/concentrated photons, the byproduct of the friction is heat. You need the compressed air to clear our the debris but the consequences of this are tiny atomized particles that coat everything, skin, clothes, walls, if you can smell it, then it's on your skin. Long term exposure, speaking from experience, you will develop contact dermatitis to things that are considered 'harmless/safe'... I ran a Kern HSE utilizing a 150watt Coherent Diamond series laser for over 10 years w/the best down draft/compressed air setup US tax dollars could buy. At the end of the day, you could smell the 'stink' from whatever I had been cutting even w/the best ventilation on the planet. We didn't know, Kern didn't know, it's thanks to the DIY community that we now understand the hidden dangers that are completely manageable. Wear long sleeves when possible, minimize skin exposure and shower/rinse exposed skin sooner than later. I still laser daily, love the hobby/profession and miss my Kern :D.
Diode lasers and CO2 lasers each have their place. Low power diode lasers have a smaller focal point, and that enables them to produce higher resolution engravings. However, as noted in this video, diode lasers have limitations when working with clear acrylic and glass. FYI - Safety glass(es) for lasers offers protection only for specific wavelengths. If you work with different lasers, then you need to ensure the safety glass(es) you select is/are appropriate for the wavelength(s) of your laser(s). This may require purchasing different sets of glass(es).
A lot of the advantages that you confer to the P2, are not a function of it being a CO2 laser, but its actual design. Not all CO2 lasers have autofocus or a built in camera. Some CO2 laser cutters also use honeycomb beds and get messed up the same as diode lasers. Not all CO2 laser cutters have integrated air assist pumps or water coolers. Even with its integrated cooler, the P2 needs topping up with coolant before use, so it is not ready to go out of the box. Judging by the amount of smoke present in the enclosure, while cutting, the included exhaust fan is inadequate. With a beefier setup, there should be hardly any smoke inside, and very little smell if vented outside. CO2 lasers use a number of mirrors to direct the beam to the cutting head. These will eventually get dirty, and require cleaning, which then necessitates realignment. Also, the laser tube will degrade, and need replacing. Whilst this is also true of diode lasers, the replacement process seems a lot simpler with the latter. Disclaimer: I have not used diode lasers, but prior to retiring I did use and maintain CO2 laser cutters as part of my job. Comparing a fully enclosed and integrated 55W CO2 laser cutter with an open frame 20W diode laser is somewhat disingenuous. A fairer comparison would have been with Xtool S1.
You missed the part where she said she was given this laser. She also said she paid for the diode herself. She's not comparing her diode to others. This is her first experience..way to get on a TH-camr because she didn't compare five lasers like the others
Good review. Would add some tips/comments: - The diode laser's honeycomb - you have it on a flat surface and that is why you're having so much char at the bottom... A honeycomb structure is usually used (besides holding small pieces) so that the air is sucked from below and out of the enclosure. Basically, you're burning wood... and if the smoke cannot escape (now it can't as there is no space between the honeycomb and your bottom plate) then the charring will occur. - too small exhaust on the CO2 is a joke... it should accommodate at least as big exhaust as your diode laser enclosure. Apparently, they traded this important function for "looking good"... It does look good & especially thin, but that you have to wear a mask speaks a lot... For me, this is a design flaw. - for me best cleaner after testing proved to be "car break degreaser", nothing else comes even close... Car shops have them and they aren't expensive.
When using foam degreaser on single sided objects (like stove, oven and oven glass etc): 1. Spray the foam and set clingfilm/plastic wrap on top of the foam. Let it soak for 30-60min and wipe it off. No more scrubbing! For grills/honeycombs: 1. Lay a clingfilm on table that is two times + 20cm larger what the cleaned area is. 2. Spray the degreaser foam on top of the clingfilm. 3. Put the object on the foam and spray some more until all cleaned areas are unvisible. 4. Make it airtight and seal the package by wrapping it up by turning the rest of the clingfilm on top of the object. Turn it upside down after 15-30min and wait another 15-30min (depends how hurry you are in). Remember to avoid breathing the fumes and use mask/use good ventilated space when unwrapping For the laser cutting device, I'd probably buy a growing tent (150x150x200cm costs around $150, smaller ones are cheaper)
Thanks for this comparison. I was thinking about a diode laser but now I'll wait until I can afford a CO2 laser. I want to cut and engrave acrylic. Also the bottom of the CO2 doesn't get as dirty because all the gunk is carried with the smoke and since there is a gap beneath the ribs and the bottom it gets carried out the exhaust.
Wow! Wish I had seen this a few months ago. They ship this assembled?$ I’ve spent so much time assembling, repairing (waiting on a new motherboard now)… and just the insecurity that comes with assembling and learning all the things you outlined and more. Anyway, thanks for taking the time to do this. I gotta sell more stuff with my old one first, but gotta do the upgrade the co2… until then, super envious!!
The cutting area is another factor. Large area co2 units are sooooo expensive. Also, if you are using the laser for production, do not ignore the fact that you will need to replace the laser tube at some point. Otherwise, good video.
For 2000$ you can get a dsp controlled, 60w co2 laser cutter with a working area of 500mm × 900mm. The co2 laser tubes have a life span starting at 1000 hours and can go up to 5000 depending on what type of cutting you make. Do you think the flimsy diode will last longer? Also, a 40 watt co2 tube costs 80 euros delivered to your door,a 40 watt diode module costs, wait for it ... 850 euros.
Great Video. I recently purchased the Xtool S1 40 Watt diode laser. I am still learning how to use it. As far as for cutting out things, I will use my cnc router which I do know how to use. Thanks again, I do enjoy your videos.
What CNC do you have? I'm getting information overload in trying to find the "I don't want to cheap out, but I don't need a production machine" sweet spot.
Great review! Thanks a lot - now I know the drawbacks of a diode laser! My theory that diode laser is way less energetic and so it doesn't instantly vaporize the material, but slowly heats it up, releasing wood gas and glue that holds plywood together, and that's what ending up on the honeycomb and bottom tray. Second thing about filtration - if the filter considerably reduces amount of fumes, maybe you should pipe the filter outlet outside through the window? If it doesn't have output flange, you could probably make one out of plywood.
The filter box actually does get vented outside but I suspect the filters aren't fully sealed and there's some minor leakage. You can buy laser filtration units that are MUCH MORE EXPENSIVE that I suspect work better.
Great video, Marie. I never realised how little charring a CO2 laser makes compared to a diode one. Mind-blowing! My wife and I bought the 20W D1 Pro during the last black friday sales. We got a deal too good to pass and ended up with a rotary too. Even with building an enclosure, getting a honeycomb, buying an air assist pump, and adding venting it cost us just over AU$2000. I'm still impressed with our little diode and all the things we can make with it, but cleaning it is a bit frustrating at times and the internal cable management was horrendous straight out of the box. I would love to get a CO2 laser at some point and am considering xTool as I feel XCS is powerful enough for our purposes. I still love our diode laser though and will most likely keep it if we do upgrade, for the purpose of using it for engraving only.
If your in a warm climate you will need a chiller. CO2 tubes like to run about 18c. More temp and they will shorten the life. I am in tropical Australia.
Nice summary, thanks for posting it. This emphasizes the necessity of doing your homework before getting ‘buck fever’. A clear idea of what you want to use the tool for is essential before spending the dough. I mostly do engraving on curved wood surfaces so neither of your options would be suitable for my needs. This is because the Z movement is pretty minimal to nonexistent in these machines. Cheers.
TH-cam is not a funny place anymore... More and more people here saying they were not paid for review but they were given the EXPENSIVE equipment for free😂😂 Less and less honesty.
Comparing the speed of 20w to 55w is probably pointless if we compare the technology itself, not the power. Laser modules can be purchased with a power much higher, even higher than CO2.
You can’t engrave metal on a co2 without expensive coatings. I have a 100w co2 and a 40w diode. The diode does a great job cutting wood. And when it comes time to replace the tube in your co2 we can talk about price and ease of service. I’m assuming you haven’t had to adjust your mirrors yet either
I would try to make a slat bed instead of honeycomb, but if you stay with the honeycomb let me suggest this: Nylon Tube Brush Set. Cut the ring off and put it in a cordless drill! Also you can get a 3" or 4" marine bilge air blower for $25 instead of a $119 fan and those will extract fumes like a beast.
Hi, since you are located somewhere in Montreal, you could use the services of Freeport Fowarding in Champlain, NY. I did use them before the pandemics and it's about 30-45 minute drive including passing the border. You do the taxes on your own when returning plus you save on shipping within US vs shipping to Canada.
i'd thought of getting a k40, fine for light work, not production i suppose. the upgrades needed to make it even halfway usable are a bit much. there's one upgrade that takes care of a whole bunch of problems, argon shielding gas. after that, upgrading the tube, lenses and power supply is at least easy and relatively cheap. supposedly takes care of the stench, cause nothing's catching on fire to make the stench, no smoke, no loud exhaust fan, no filters, cause there's no smoky particulates to get rid of. you just make it gas tight on the bottom, gas tightish everywhere else, and all the garbage that would escape and strangle you to death is kept in the gas, which you can vent occasionally, no air assist, cause there's no crap to blow out of the laser nozzle. if it weren't for the price of a gas cylinder, it'd be an easy decision. if you're not using a LOT of the stuff a tank will last a long long long time, which means that if you rent the tank monthly it'll quickly make the cost of buying a tank worth it, though they're 200bucks on the .ca jungle site for a small tank. knowing other people have gone that route and had easy success, even with cheap k40 garbage, i'll be ready when i finally move on from using a laser head on my cnc machine.
@@sash-v7i i've seen argon used in videos, if you already have ga shield welding gear it's not that difficult, some tape to seal the bottom and plumb it in, disable the fan. i've seen the co2 tests and it's still smoky and too light so it doesn't shield well, but, if you didn't seal the enclosure to keep the co2 from blowing away, it won't do anything.
An easer way to clean the honey comb is to use the degreaser and a Electric Pressure Washer, Way faster and more user friendly. Also 4k for the xtool co2? The omtech 60W laser goes for $2600 and the remainder cost can be used in the chiller and exhaust solutions. Bigger cutting space and quality laser...
An interesting video. What is the life span and cost of the CO2 tube and does it degrade in its intensity over time? If it does then your settings will be changing it over time. This CO2 laser is a high end hobby/low production model compared to the larger commercial production models which cost $20,000+. You never mention that many items are not laser friendly and can in fact be deadly if layered. I enjoy your videos and various projects. And yes our Montreal winters do not allow opening the windows. I am in Pierrefonds (West Island on the Island on Montreal - geography info for those not familiar with the are)
Thank you so much for testing these 2 out for us. Have you tried any of the engraving options, especially on cylindrical objects like a glass or a metallic cup?
The 3M pink filters you were using in this video are the wrong filters for the job. Those are meant for actual dust, you need filters meant for chemical vapors.
I have a dialed laser and everything you're saying is exactly correct but my question is why can't I just set up a system like yours instead of the honeycomb?
Allthough a co2 has it’s advantages, the problems you have with the diode laser are due to mistakes I see you making. (for example: my diode laser gives me clean edges because I let it run fast with more passes without loosing time)
Back when you bought your first laser, your mistake was buying the open frame D1 instead of the enclosed M1 which doesn't have many of the issues you mentioned. Also, some time ago xTool have released another enclosed diode laser, the S1 - while it doesn't have a built in camera, they added a clever multipoint positioning system.
that diode laser shouldn't need that much cleaning unless you are cutting materials you shouldn't be cutting. or don't have the propper airflow. (basicly you are getting flames comming out of the bottom of your wood depositing soot and other things on the bottom plate and the honey comb, that said. you wanna move away from the honeycomb. it's the cause of your bad airflow) get slats for your diode laser even if you don't get flames. the thick smoke is getting caught in the honeycomb structure. giving it more time to dirty the bottom of your work and the honeycomb itself
I bought a diode laser very similar to the one you have and surprised to find I could not cut clear or translucent acrylic like I had done on the Techshop CO2 lasers. D'oh! Even though it's a tremendous amount of rework, I may get a K40. Hopefully I can find a middle ground CO2 that's not 5K instead.
After watching this video, I believe all the pro's and drawbacks that are mentioned are purely situational and really, really, not the information people are looking for when comparing the two different kinds of lasermachines. You got the CO2 laser for free, so that immediately increases the bias you might have with the brand (which is extremely overpriced as it is). And other 'reasons' why you would've made the upgrade are purely based on the fact that you've made some consumer mistakes that make the first machine really expensive, smelly, not easy to use, etc.
14:25 this here is also the main tradeoff between the 2. it means you can cut things with the co2 laser that the diode can't do. but for the same exact reason. there are things your diode laser can do that your co2 laser cannot. like engrave things past a transparent surface.. or burn away laser paint on a glass without engraving and shattering the glass itself.
Well produced and presented video, thank you. A question - would you consider the edges of laser cut wooden pieces to be suitable for gluing to other cut out pieces, or would they need sanding?
Great video, BUT to be fair.. many of the cons you list of a "diode laser" pertain to the diode laser YOU had.. There are many enclosed Diode lasers that include all the stuff you bought for less than what you paid for it all.. Look at the XTOOL M1 for example and NOW the M1 Ultra.
What about work area or size of material. I can engrave on a section of an entire sheet of plywood by just setting the laser on top of the sheet. The only reason I have not switched to CO2 is the limited space to fit whatever you are working on
True. Some Co2 have a really big area. The xTool P2 is 12x20 I believe, but you can add the pass-though option which basically allows you to feed a long 20 inch wide sheet though it as it engraves
@@DIYMontreal I am currently using a 30 watt optical output diode laser module by Laser Tree and it is very powerful. But that brings me to my biggest complaint about diode lasers.... The power ratings. Some manufacturers advertise the power consumption rating and others will actually tell you the output rating. It gets very confusing for a beginner and it took me buying 4 different laser modules to finally know what number to look for, which sometimes takes a bit of digging
@@jacoblittle3209I have same LT-K30 head, it's amazing power.Set on homemade extended S9 frame with dimensions of workspace 370/780mm i successfully cut few shapes on gipsum plate size 900/1800/12mm.Think that can't be possible with hobby CO2 laser. Regards
Great watch. Two question? Can the XTool be used to make PCB, that is burn lines to make PCB tracks. And can it do the job to cut PCB being the copper on them is super thin and the board itself is 2 mm?
It helps to know that the more powerful diode laser cutters use multiple lower power diodes in a cluster, whereas a CO2 laser is a single powerful laser aimed at one spot.... Which explains a lot!
little warning on the viewing window of the co2 laser. yes the window stop all of the laser's infrared light. and your eyes are protected from the laser light. BUT it doesn't stop visible light. and the heated material still emits a verry bright spot of light wich can still damage your eyes. it can even give you welders eye if you are not carefull. (tiny damage to your rettina wich feels like someone threw verry fine sand into your eyes right before you go to sleep)
the built in air assist on the co2 laser is probbably a blower style fan. given the fact that you can't hear a loud pump. makes the laser head a little heavyer. but it's making me think that's a good upgrade for my co2 laser. lower power consumption and much quieter.
I think it's a very inadequate comparison. I have a k40 and run a neje max 4 (1k € + 300€ accessories, case, etc.) the diod laser works perfect without carrying about the cooling in cold times. I also would prefer Co2 always but these diod devices work very well with very low maintenance.
While entry-level diode lasers present challenges, CO2 lasers offer numerous benefits that make them a superior choice. In your video, you'll explore these advantages and drawbacks comprehensively, comparing costs and addressing the crucial question: which type of laser should viewers opt for, diode or CO2? Additionally, you'll touch on essential aspects like ventilation setups and the xTool smoke purifier, providing valuable insights for those considering diving into laser engraving. Amidst the comparison, the Monport Laser emerges as a standout option, offering unparalleled precision, versatility, and reliability. With Monport, users can confidently embark on their laser engraving journey, equipped with a tool that delivers exceptional results and addresses the challenges often associated with entry-level lasers.
Only problem with light burn is you have to pay to use it, i've never cleaned my honeycomb once in 14 months, and an aquarium air pump works just fine for air assist. I tried running mine in the basement, no amount of vacuum will get the smoke and smell out, I run it in the garage with a camera watching it now.
Yeah, I was wondering what the obsession with cleaning the honeycomb. I've never cleaned mine and so what? I think it may be worse because there was no gap beneath the grid for the airflow. I've also not used a diode cutter, maybe they are just messier. Still, who cares if the bed is dirty? Does it affect the work?
I am not sure if I would agree with you regarding some of the points in the video. Both CO2 and diode laser have their places. The fact is, xtool d1 pro is outrageously overpriced for what it is. When it comes to this type of open frame diode lasers, there is really very little seperating xtool from other more budget friendly options. CO2 laser machine is another story, but I still won't spend anywhere close to $5k for that. You are comparing the cut speed of two machines with very different laser power output, which is completedly unfair and pointless. The CO2 may look to be worth it, only because you overspent on the D1 Pro. There are plenty of budget brand 20W laser out there, nowadays at around $500ish. Occasionally , there are sales pushing it close to $300, with an air assist included. with that, the equation would be drastically different from your viewpoint here, esepcially for people new to laser machines.
Curious if you have looked at the Atomstack and Ikier 70W diode laser setups...? Seem like decent competitors to your CO2 setup (with the exception of laser cutting clear acrylic of course, they are still diode lasers...)
I've seen other diode laser cutters make successful cuts out of acrylic just by adding a black sheet of card stock underneath the material to be cut. After the cut you have two pieces of laser cut art that can be cleaned and sold. It shouldn't be too hard to find the video on TH-cam. Epilog makes a superior C02 Laser cutter/engraver that is made entirely in the USA. What you have is something made in Communist China.
And coming from the 3D printing world and being good at DIY, you then realize you can build a 50W Co2 one for the price of a diode one. Takes a while but it will do all the things you want from it and you can always upgrade, repair and replace everything you want. But I do realize that that route sure isn't for everyone.
Loved this video.. Extremely helpful and entertaining. I do audio/video and I know it took time to do that video... Bravo. I'd like to get one, but my only concern is the smell bothering the neighbors. Thanks ....Keep em coming
Wow, the diode laser gets really messy! Indeed, I would hate maintaining it. I can see one advantage to the diode laser though: since I have a 4ft x 4ft cnc, I could put a diode laser on that and be able to work on a project much larger than 26 x 14 inch, at a much lower price than a co2 of that size. And I would get a 44W diode laser, which would be faster than the diode one you’re comparing. But seeing that mess, oh man! It’s a huge bummer, indeed.
Ive got a cheap and chearful 3018 and it does the job well enough, but Ive never had to clean off any gunk/grease from the bed? Is that just from the plywood glues?
We call those types technicians and mechanics. Engineers or principal engineers, do that crazy history and research look ups. -- we might even build a tool or software just to analyze the research.
I take it you are only comparing that version of xtool. Many of the features you stated are not available on a Diode are available. Case in point the WeCreat laser and the Creality Falcon Pro.
To be honest I still think its a lot of money for a co2 laser. My OMT laser was 2200 euro's and the active chiller about 600. For that money you get a 50x70cm 80 watt laser. I completely understand you are happy with the upgrade don't get me wrong, but yeah... there are cheaper alternatives out there.
Yes, there are cheaper alternatives but they don't work straight out of the box, you have to buy an external chiller etc. The advantage of the desktop CO2 lasers is that they come with everything you need built in, just add coolant and you're ready to cut.
Just great, go and buy the Creality Falcon 2 40W/20W diode laser and this video has just about made me think I've just wasted my money. How long do the Co2 tubes last though??
I enjoy all your videos This comparison video is very interesting. I have a question though I understand it's CO2 lasers cannot tolerate freezing temperatures ?
You have to put antifreeze in the tube so it won't freeze. They give you guidance on the ratio. But still unclear if you can keep it in an unheated space. Probably not.
The machine isn't sealed at all (not meant to be as air needs to come in to makeup the air being sucked out). The issue is the built-in fan lacking power. You need to add a much more powerful fan like the one I use for my diode laser.
first, comparing a 20w diode to a 50w co2 isnt close you have way more power with the Co2 maybe you should try a 60 or 70w diode laser and see where you stand the enclosure is needed for sure but if your going to compare at least have similar power outputs
That is fair and I guess accurate. But if I had to pick one today for my business, I would lean towards the P2. Unless I could somehow find room for a bigger floor model the the Thunder Nova.
►Watch my diode laser review video: th-cam.com/video/NXIRsUSDVG0/w-d-xo.html
►Shop the xTool SALE bit.ly/xTool-Sale
►Shop all Router Templates www.diymontreal.com/product-category/router-templates/
As someone just getting started, this was exactly the info I was looking for. Thank you!!
Actually for the price of the P2 for another $2000 you can look into a full blown 80 - 100 W Co2 laser, floor model water cooled with a much larger bed and self contained. Depends on what you want to do. P2 is still a hobby craft unit the xtra $2000 gets you a full blown very fast production unit. I use a Rabbit 100W floor model Co2 at work all self contained, runs 24/7, It's only issue like all Co2 units is you must keep the lens properly clean. Even this won't cut metal though.
You have dirty cuts from your diode laser for the same reason your honey comb is getting so filthy, you need a 'down draft'. Down draft is a 'must' because your respirator doesn't protect your skin. Lasers don't burn, they 'oblate' by impacting an area w/concentrated photons, the byproduct of the friction is heat. You need the compressed air to clear our the debris but the consequences of this are tiny atomized particles that coat everything, skin, clothes, walls, if you can smell it, then it's on your skin. Long term exposure, speaking from experience, you will develop contact dermatitis to things that are considered 'harmless/safe'... I ran a Kern HSE utilizing a 150watt Coherent Diamond series laser for over 10 years w/the best down draft/compressed air setup US tax dollars could buy. At the end of the day, you could smell the 'stink' from whatever I had been cutting even w/the best ventilation on the planet. We didn't know, Kern didn't know, it's thanks to the DIY community that we now understand the hidden dangers that are completely manageable. Wear long sleeves when possible, minimize skin exposure and shower/rinse exposed skin sooner than later. I still laser daily, love the hobby/profession and miss my Kern :D.
Thank you so much for this valuable advice.
Diode lasers and CO2 lasers each have their place. Low power diode lasers have a smaller focal point, and that enables them to produce higher resolution engravings. However, as noted in this video, diode lasers have limitations when working with clear acrylic and glass.
FYI - Safety glass(es) for lasers offers protection only for specific wavelengths. If you work with different lasers, then you need to ensure the safety glass(es) you select is/are appropriate for the wavelength(s) of your laser(s). This may require purchasing different sets of glass(es).
Also cutting speeds.. is better to have both so to cut with one and engrave with the other...
@@Phelnok Agreed.
A lot of the advantages that you confer to the P2, are not a function of it being a CO2 laser, but its actual design.
Not all CO2 lasers have autofocus or a built in camera.
Some CO2 laser cutters also use honeycomb beds and get messed up the same as diode lasers.
Not all CO2 laser cutters have integrated air assist pumps or water coolers.
Even with its integrated cooler, the P2 needs topping up with coolant before use, so it is not ready to go out of the box.
Judging by the amount of smoke present in the enclosure, while cutting, the included exhaust fan is inadequate. With a beefier setup, there should be hardly any smoke inside, and very little smell if vented outside.
CO2 lasers use a number of mirrors to direct the beam to the cutting head. These will eventually get dirty, and require cleaning, which then necessitates realignment. Also, the laser tube will degrade, and need replacing. Whilst this is also true of diode lasers, the replacement process seems a lot simpler with the latter.
Disclaimer: I have not used diode lasers, but prior to retiring I did use and maintain CO2 laser cutters as part of my job.
Comparing a fully enclosed and integrated 55W CO2 laser cutter with an open frame 20W diode laser is somewhat disingenuous. A fairer comparison would have been with Xtool S1.
You missed the part where she said she was given this laser. She also said she paid for the diode herself. She's not comparing her diode to others. This is her first experience..way to get on a TH-camr because she didn't compare five lasers like the others
Good review. Would add some tips/comments:
- The diode laser's honeycomb - you have it on a flat surface and that is why you're having so much char at the bottom... A honeycomb structure is usually used (besides holding small pieces) so that the air is sucked from below and out of the enclosure. Basically, you're burning wood... and if the smoke cannot escape (now it can't as there is no space between the honeycomb and your bottom plate) then the charring will occur.
- too small exhaust on the CO2 is a joke... it should accommodate at least as big exhaust as your diode laser enclosure. Apparently, they traded this important function for "looking good"... It does look good & especially thin, but that you have to wear a mask speaks a lot... For me, this is a design flaw.
- for me best cleaner after testing proved to be "car break degreaser", nothing else comes even close... Car shops have them and they aren't expensive.
Good tip on the car break degreaser, I will try this. Thank you
A delightfully respectful, clear and comprehensive comparison. Thanks very much!
Thank you!
the problem is its nothing more than a ad
This is great, thank you. Im in the middle if "making it work" with my diode laser. Works for what I need ,but boy, a CO2 would be great.
When using foam degreaser on single sided objects (like stove, oven and oven glass etc):
1. Spray the foam and set clingfilm/plastic wrap on top of the foam. Let it soak for 30-60min and wipe it off. No more scrubbing!
For grills/honeycombs:
1. Lay a clingfilm on table that is two times + 20cm larger what the cleaned area is.
2. Spray the degreaser foam on top of the clingfilm.
3. Put the object on the foam and spray some more until all cleaned areas are unvisible.
4. Make it airtight and seal the package by wrapping it up by turning the rest of the clingfilm on top of the object. Turn it upside down after 15-30min and wait another 15-30min (depends how hurry you are in).
Remember to avoid breathing the fumes and use mask/use good ventilated space when unwrapping
For the laser cutting device, I'd probably buy a growing tent (150x150x200cm costs around $150, smaller ones are cheaper)
You make the best videos. I learned a ton from this one.
Thanks for this comparison. I was thinking about a diode laser but now I'll wait until I can afford a CO2 laser. I want to cut and engrave acrylic.
Also the bottom of the CO2 doesn't get as dirty because all the gunk is carried with the smoke and since there is a gap beneath the ribs and the bottom it gets carried out the exhaust.
Wow! Wish I had seen this a few months ago. They ship this assembled?$ I’ve spent so much time assembling, repairing (waiting on a new motherboard now)… and just the insecurity that comes with assembling and learning all the things you outlined and more. Anyway, thanks for taking the time to do this. I gotta sell more stuff with my old one first, but gotta do the upgrade the co2… until then, super envious!!
The cutting area is another factor. Large area co2 units are sooooo expensive. Also, if you are using the laser for production, do not ignore the fact that you will need to replace the laser tube at some point. Otherwise, good video.
For 2000$ you can get a dsp controlled, 60w co2 laser cutter with a working area of 500mm × 900mm. The co2 laser tubes have a life span starting at 1000 hours and can go up to 5000 depending on what type of cutting you make. Do you think the flimsy diode will last longer? Also, a 40 watt co2 tube costs 80 euros delivered to your door,a 40 watt diode module costs, wait for it ... 850 euros.
Great Video. I recently purchased the Xtool S1 40 Watt diode laser. I am still learning how to use it. As far as for cutting out things, I will use my cnc router which I do know how to use. Thanks again, I do enjoy your videos.
What CNC do you have? I'm getting information overload in trying to find the "I don't want to cheap out, but I don't need a production machine" sweet spot.
Thanks so much for your videos on both the diode laser and the CO2 laser. Very clear, very concise...and ultimatelt very helpful!
Great review! Thanks a lot - now I know the drawbacks of a diode laser! My theory that diode laser is way less energetic and so it doesn't instantly vaporize the material, but slowly heats it up, releasing wood gas and glue that holds plywood together, and that's what ending up on the honeycomb and bottom tray.
Second thing about filtration - if the filter considerably reduces amount of fumes, maybe you should pipe the filter outlet outside through the window? If it doesn't have output flange, you could probably make one out of plywood.
The filter box actually does get vented outside but I suspect the filters aren't fully sealed and there's some minor leakage. You can buy laser filtration units that are MUCH MORE EXPENSIVE that I suspect work better.
@@DIYMontrealThen, I guess, some sort of silicone goo is your friend 😏
Great video, Marie. I never realised how little charring a CO2 laser makes compared to a diode one. Mind-blowing!
My wife and I bought the 20W D1 Pro during the last black friday sales. We got a deal too good to pass and ended up with a rotary too. Even with building an enclosure, getting a honeycomb, buying an air assist pump, and adding venting it cost us just over AU$2000.
I'm still impressed with our little diode and all the things we can make with it, but cleaning it is a bit frustrating at times and the internal cable management was horrendous straight out of the box. I would love to get a CO2 laser at some point and am considering xTool as I feel XCS is powerful enough for our purposes.
I still love our diode laser though and will most likely keep it if we do upgrade, for the purpose of using it for engraving only.
If your in a warm climate you will need a chiller.
CO2 tubes like to run about 18c. More temp and they will shorten the life.
I am in tropical Australia.
This is a fantastic summary that aligned with my weeks of research and decision making. Thanks
Very well done. Accurate based on my experience. Thanks for the content.
merci beaucoup pour le temps consacré à cette question, et mille merci de l'avoir abordé dans son intégralité!!!
Glasses. all the time. No matter what type of laser, even through the safety view screen
Nice summary, thanks for posting it. This emphasizes the necessity of doing your homework before getting ‘buck fever’. A clear idea of what you want to use the tool for is essential before spending the dough. I mostly do engraving on curved wood surfaces so neither of your options would be suitable for my needs. This is because the Z movement is pretty minimal to nonexistent in these machines. Cheers.
TH-cam is not a funny place anymore... More and more people here saying they were not paid for review but they were given the EXPENSIVE equipment for free😂😂 Less and less honesty.
Thank you for sharing. CO2 are a very definite step up from a Diode model. Everyone stay safe, warm, happy and healthy. From Henrico County Virginia
Thank you for the comparison! I will definitely purchase acrylic templates. Have been nervous to purchase the wooden ones with fear of breaking.
Thanks for the feedback!
Comparing the speed of 20w to 55w is probably pointless if we compare the technology itself, not the power. Laser modules can be purchased with a power much higher, even higher than CO2.
Important to keep in m8nd OPTICAL power vs power consumed.
You can’t engrave metal on a co2 without expensive coatings. I have a 100w co2 and a 40w diode. The diode does a great job cutting wood. And when it comes time to replace the tube in your co2 we can talk about price and ease of service. I’m assuming you haven’t had to adjust your mirrors yet either
I feel the same about mine. Wish I had just bought a CO2. I would definitely use mine more then.
Great video, lots of time spent editing. Excellent review. Mahalo for sharing! 🙂🤙❤️
Thank you kindly!
Thank you for your considered information, keep up the great work.
Thanks
That’s a massive subsidy for your side hustle.
I would try to make a slat bed instead of honeycomb, but if you stay with the honeycomb let me suggest this: Nylon Tube Brush Set. Cut the ring off and put it in a cordless drill! Also you can get a 3" or 4" marine bilge air blower for $25 instead of a $119 fan and those will extract fumes like a beast.
Great videos Marie, as always.
I learnt a lot from this video, thank you!
Glad it was helpful!
Hi, since you are located somewhere in Montreal, you could use the services of Freeport Fowarding in Champlain, NY. I did use them before the pandemics and it's about 30-45 minute drive including passing the border. You do the taxes on your own when returning plus you save on shipping within US vs shipping to Canada.
i'd thought of getting a k40, fine for light work, not production i suppose. the upgrades needed to make it even halfway usable are a bit much. there's one upgrade that takes care of a whole bunch of problems, argon shielding gas. after that, upgrading the tube, lenses and power supply is at least easy and relatively cheap.
supposedly takes care of the stench, cause nothing's catching on fire to make the stench, no smoke, no loud exhaust fan, no filters, cause there's no smoky particulates to get rid of. you just make it gas tight on the bottom, gas tightish everywhere else, and all the garbage that would escape and strangle you to death is kept in the gas, which you can vent occasionally, no air assist, cause there's no crap to blow out of the laser nozzle.
if it weren't for the price of a gas cylinder, it'd be an easy decision. if you're not using a LOT of the stuff a tank will last a long long long time, which means that if you rent the tank monthly it'll quickly make the cost of buying a tank worth it, though they're 200bucks on the .ca jungle site for a small tank.
knowing other people have gone that route and had easy success, even with cheap k40 garbage, i'll be ready when i finally move on from using a laser head on my cnc machine.
Hello, are you try argon shield or just speak theoretically?I make some tests with CO2 gas for air assist and reality not like theory.
@@sash-v7i i've seen argon used in videos, if you already have ga shield welding gear it's not that difficult, some tape to seal the bottom and plumb it in, disable the fan. i've seen the co2 tests and it's still smoky and too light so it doesn't shield well, but, if you didn't seal the enclosure to keep the co2 from blowing away, it won't do anything.
@@felderup Thanks for reply, I'm very curious to see these tests if you can put links here.
Regards
You didn't upgrade, you got a free one. LOL!
Very funny concerning the statement in the first video about accepting to get something for free to have a non-influenced opinion.
An easer way to clean the honey comb is to use the degreaser and a Electric Pressure Washer, Way faster and more user friendly. Also 4k for the xtool co2? The omtech 60W laser goes for $2600 and the remainder cost can be used in the chiller and exhaust solutions. Bigger cutting space and quality laser...
An interesting video. What is the life span and cost of the CO2 tube and does it degrade in its intensity over time? If it does then your settings will be changing it over time. This CO2 laser is a high end hobby/low production model compared to the larger commercial production models which cost $20,000+. You never mention that many items are not laser friendly and can in fact be deadly if layered. I enjoy your videos and various projects. And yes our Montreal winters do not allow opening the windows. I am in Pierrefonds (West Island on the Island on Montreal - geography info for those not familiar with the are)
Thank you so much for testing these 2 out for us. Have you tried any of the engraving options, especially on cylindrical objects like a glass or a metallic cup?
As someone that’s been wanting a laser cutter for years this video was super helpful for me.
Sooooooooo Well done! Thank you!
Fantastic review, Marie! Thanks a bunch! 😃
Stay safe there with your family! 🖖😊
Thank you! You too!
The 3M pink filters you were using in this video are the wrong filters for the job. Those are meant for actual dust, you need filters meant for chemical vapors.
I have a dialed laser and everything you're saying is exactly correct but my question is why can't I just set up a system like yours instead of the honeycomb?
Allthough a co2 has it’s advantages, the problems you have with the diode laser are due to mistakes I see you making. (for example: my diode laser gives me clean edges because I let it run fast with more passes without loosing time)
Whats the difference in the kerf widths between these two machines?
Back when you bought your first laser, your mistake was buying the open frame D1 instead of the enclosed M1 which doesn't have many of the issues you mentioned.
Also, some time ago xTool have released another enclosed diode laser, the S1 - while it doesn't have a built in camera, they added a clever multipoint positioning system.
Probably WAS a mistake!! Didn't know the difference and didn't do my research...
@@DIYMontrealIt was a somewhat expensive learning experience, but you are wiser now!
You just talked me outta buying any DIY laser.The hassle with either is just not worth it.
that diode laser shouldn't need that much cleaning unless you are cutting materials you shouldn't be cutting. or don't have the propper airflow.
(basicly you are getting flames comming out of the bottom of your wood depositing soot and other things on the bottom plate and the honey comb, that said. you wanna move away from the honeycomb. it's the cause of your bad airflow) get slats for your diode laser
even if you don't get flames. the thick smoke is getting caught in the honeycomb structure. giving it more time to dirty the bottom of your work and the honeycomb itself
Great show thanks loads of great knowledge
I bought a diode laser very similar to the one you have and surprised to find I could not cut clear or translucent acrylic like I had done on the Techshop CO2 lasers. D'oh! Even though it's a tremendous amount of rework, I may get a K40. Hopefully I can find a middle ground CO2 that's not 5K instead.
After watching this video, I believe all the pro's and drawbacks that are mentioned are purely situational and really, really, not the information people are looking for when comparing the two different kinds of lasermachines. You got the CO2 laser for free, so that immediately increases the bias you might have with the brand (which is extremely overpriced as it is). And other 'reasons' why you would've made the upgrade are purely based on the fact that you've made some consumer mistakes that make the first machine really expensive, smelly, not easy to use, etc.
It's helped decide on my purchase, tx.
14:25 this here is also the main tradeoff between the 2.
it means you can cut things with the co2 laser that the diode can't do.
but for the same exact reason. there are things your diode laser can do that your co2 laser cannot.
like engrave things past a transparent surface..
or burn away laser paint on a glass without engraving and shattering the glass itself.
Well produced and presented video, thank you. A question - would you consider the edges of laser cut wooden pieces to be suitable for gluing to other cut out pieces, or would they need sanding?
Great video, BUT to be fair.. many of the cons you list of a "diode laser" pertain to the diode laser YOU had..
There are many enclosed Diode lasers that include all the stuff you bought for less than what you paid for it all..
Look at the XTOOL M1 for example and NOW the M1 Ultra.
It looks like you're only wearing dust filters, but you mentioned fumes.
I use 3M 2097 filters. 2097 adds filtration of nuisance-level organic vapors (it has some charcoal in the filter).
Off topic but you can self-clear UPS at their Dorval offfice and save the brokerage fees.
This video helped me to not decide... I do woodworking and would like to engrave a logo in my products, for example. But your video opened my eyes.
What about work area or size of material. I can engrave on a section of an entire sheet of plywood by just setting the laser on top of the sheet. The only reason I have not switched to CO2 is the limited space to fit whatever you are working on
True. Some Co2 have a really big area. The xTool P2 is 12x20 I believe, but you can add the pass-though option which basically allows you to feed a long 20 inch wide sheet though it as it engraves
@@DIYMontreal I am currently using a 30 watt optical output diode laser module by Laser Tree and it is very powerful. But that brings me to my biggest complaint about diode lasers.... The power ratings. Some manufacturers advertise the power consumption rating and others will actually tell you the output rating. It gets very confusing for a beginner and it took me buying 4 different laser modules to finally know what number to look for, which sometimes takes a bit of digging
@@jacoblittle3209I have same LT-K30 head, it's amazing power.Set on homemade extended S9 frame with dimensions of workspace 370/780mm i successfully cut few shapes on gipsum plate size 900/1800/12mm.Think that can't be possible with hobby CO2 laser. Regards
Great watch. Two question? Can the XTool be used to make PCB, that is burn lines to make PCB tracks. And can it do the job to cut PCB being the copper on them is super thin and the board itself is 2 mm?
It helps to know that the more powerful diode laser cutters use multiple lower power diodes in a cluster, whereas a CO2 laser is a single powerful laser aimed at one spot.... Which explains a lot!
little warning on the viewing window of the co2 laser.
yes the window stop all of the laser's infrared light. and your eyes are protected from the laser light.
BUT it doesn't stop visible light. and the heated material still emits a verry bright spot of light wich can still damage your eyes.
it can even give you welders eye if you are not carefull. (tiny damage to your rettina wich feels like someone threw verry fine sand into your eyes right before you go to sleep)
does a 40watt diode as fast as a 40watt c02 laser? i ask because ur comparing a 20watt diode to a 55watt c02 laser
No, a 40W diode doesn't cut as fast as 40W CO2, especially when you're using acrylic.
the built in air assist on the co2 laser is probbably a blower style fan. given the fact that you can't hear a loud pump.
makes the laser head a little heavyer. but it's making me think that's a good upgrade for my co2 laser.
lower power consumption and much quieter.
I think it's a very inadequate comparison. I have a k40 and run a neje max 4 (1k € + 300€ accessories, case, etc.) the diod laser works perfect without carrying about the cooling in cold times. I also would prefer Co2 always but these diod devices work very well with very low maintenance.
Can the CO2 engrave clear acrylic at varying depths?
Super helpful. Thank you.
Thanks, you have forget in the cost, the CO² cartridge. I don't know if I sell my D1 for this P2.
What you mean 'CO2 cartridge '?
While entry-level diode lasers present challenges, CO2 lasers offer numerous benefits that make them a superior choice. In your video, you'll explore these advantages and drawbacks comprehensively, comparing costs and addressing the crucial question: which type of laser should viewers opt for, diode or CO2? Additionally, you'll touch on essential aspects like ventilation setups and the xTool smoke purifier, providing valuable insights for those considering diving into laser engraving. Amidst the comparison, the Monport Laser emerges as a standout option, offering unparalleled precision, versatility, and reliability. With Monport, users can confidently embark on their laser engraving journey, equipped with a tool that delivers exceptional results and addresses the challenges often associated with entry-level lasers.
Only problem with light burn is you have to pay to use it, i've never cleaned my honeycomb once in 14 months, and an aquarium air pump works just fine for air assist. I tried running mine in the basement, no amount of vacuum will get the smoke and smell out, I run it in the garage with a camera watching it now.
Yeah, I was wondering what the obsession with cleaning the honeycomb. I've never cleaned mine and so what? I think it may be worse because there was no gap beneath the grid for the airflow. I've also not used a diode cutter, maybe they are just messier. Still, who cares if the bed is dirty? Does it affect the work?
I am not sure if I would agree with you regarding some of the points in the video. Both CO2 and diode laser have their places. The fact is, xtool d1 pro is outrageously overpriced for what it is. When it comes to this type of open frame diode lasers, there is really very little seperating xtool from other more budget friendly options. CO2 laser machine is another story, but I still won't spend anywhere close to $5k for that. You are comparing the cut speed of two machines with very different laser power output, which is completedly unfair and pointless. The CO2 may look to be worth it, only because you overspent on the D1 Pro. There are plenty of budget brand 20W laser out there, nowadays at around $500ish. Occasionally , there are sales pushing it close to $300, with an air assist included. with that, the equation would be drastically different from your viewpoint here, esepcially for people new to laser machines.
Please tell me the tutorials you found for LightBurn
Curious if you have looked at the Atomstack and Ikier 70W diode laser setups...? Seem like decent competitors to your CO2 setup (with the exception of laser cutting clear acrylic of course, they are still diode lasers...)
I've seen other diode laser cutters make successful cuts out of acrylic just by adding a black sheet of card stock underneath the material to be cut. After the cut you have two pieces of laser cut art that can be cleaned and sold. It shouldn't be too hard to find the video on TH-cam. Epilog makes a superior C02 Laser cutter/engraver that is made entirely in the USA. What you have is something made in Communist China.
And coming from the 3D printing world and being good at DIY, you then realize you can build a 50W Co2 one for the price of a diode one. Takes a while but it will do all the things you want from it and you can always upgrade, repair and replace everything you want. But I do realize that that route sure isn't for everyone.
You need a gap between the honeycomb and the aluminium plate. Thats why you get a mess and have to clean all the time.
man, that xtool is so much nicer than my K40 Pro but my K40 is cheaper than you paid for your diode engraver.
Loved this video.. Extremely helpful and entertaining. I do audio/video and I know it took time to do that video... Bravo. I'd like to get one, but my only concern is the smell bothering the neighbors. Thanks ....Keep em coming
Wow, the diode laser gets really messy! Indeed, I would hate maintaining it. I can see one advantage to the diode laser though: since I have a 4ft x 4ft cnc, I could put a diode laser on that and be able to work on a project much larger than 26 x 14 inch, at a much lower price than a co2 of that size. And I would get a 44W diode laser, which would be faster than the diode one you’re comparing. But seeing that mess, oh man! It’s a huge bummer, indeed.
Ive got a cheap and chearful 3018 and it does the job well enough, but Ive never had to clean off any gunk/grease from the bed? Is that just from the plywood glues?
It sounds like your biggest issue is you don't do your own research before purchases.
We call those types technicians and mechanics.
Engineers or principal engineers, do that crazy history and research look ups. -- we might even build a tool or software just to analyze the research.
Or just build the laser cutter to a much higher standard and lower price.
I take it you are only comparing that version of xtool. Many of the features you stated are not available on a Diode are available. Case in point the WeCreat laser and the Creality Falcon Pro.
Very good assessment, tks.
Is there a ‘pass through’ option?
To be honest I still think its a lot of money for a co2 laser. My OMT laser was 2200 euro's and the active chiller about 600. For that money you get a 50x70cm 80 watt laser.
I completely understand you are happy with the upgrade don't get me wrong, but yeah... there are cheaper alternatives out there.
Yes, there are cheaper alternatives but they don't work straight out of the box, you have to buy an external chiller etc.
The advantage of the desktop CO2 lasers is that they come with everything you need built in, just add coolant and you're ready to cut.
that close up view at the bottom shows that your far away camera needs to be calibrated.
seeing as the edge of your workpiece doesn't line up.
I'm looking at a CO2 as well, as the diode is SOOOOO slow.....What about laser tube cooling?
Just great, go and buy the Creality Falcon 2 40W/20W diode laser and this video has just about made me think I've just wasted my money. How long do the Co2 tubes last though??
The big question is... would you take the 5000$ investment when starting up a small business ? Or would you need to take the staged approach ?
Thanks!
I enjoy all your videos This comparison video is very interesting. I have a question though I understand it's CO2 lasers cannot tolerate freezing temperatures ?
You have to put antifreeze in the tube so it won't freeze. They give you guidance on the ratio. But still unclear if you can keep it in an unheated space. Probably not.
@@DIYMontreal Thank you for getting back to me
So you’re saying the machine isn’t sealed well enough that even if you vent directly outside, there’s still a ton of particles in the air ?
The machine isn't sealed at all (not meant to be as air needs to come in to makeup the air being sucked out). The issue is the built-in fan lacking power. You need to add a much more powerful fan like the one I use for my diode laser.
first, comparing a 20w diode to a 50w co2 isnt close
you have way more power with the Co2
maybe you should try a 60 or 70w diode laser and see where you stand
the enclosure is needed for sure but if your going to compare at least have similar power outputs
The random stock footage is very off putting.
Baby wipes work very well for cleaning off laser residue.
Thanks for the tip!
So, you bought a laser and you didn’t like it. But you like the one you got for free!
That is fair and I guess accurate. But if I had to pick one today for my business, I would lean towards the P2. Unless I could somehow find room for a bigger floor model the the Thunder Nova.
Yeah, I think I'd prefer either if it were free.