The end of this conversation is basically all about my entire intellectual project in TLC. Confessionalism vs personalist knowledge. This was really great, Ken. Thanks. ❤
@@brianortiz809 yeah. I don’t think I’m a liberal Protestant at all. I converted to Orthodox Christianity and consider myself to be…a mystic is probably the best word. Would love to engage with you more sometime. Probably not in text-based comments like this. I occasionally livestream and have conversations that people can pop in if they want. Are you very familiar with Ken’s channel? Or Jordan’s work/videos.
Glory to God! Very thankful to be able to watch this. Converted to Eastern Orthodoxy three years ago. Before that I was Agnostic/buddhist/new age, and listened then a lot to Jordan Hall deep code stuff. I always appreciated his thinking process. But since becoming Christian I have missed that type of thinking, also because I am used to talking/thinking about reality in these type of ways. So I am very grateful to hear Jordan and you talking about faith in this video, incredibly of value to me, and the conversation really resonates!
Having listened to Jordan since my journey to Orthodoxy began in 2018 or so, I am consistently happy to see him speaking the way he is. This conversation is lifegiving!
Somehow, Jordan's embrace of Christianity and Christian language has unlocked Jordan Hall's ideas for me. I have points of commonality to relate to his theories and models. It is refreshing and enlivening. I can't wait to listen to more of both of ya'lls stuff
Ken, your videos have been really helpful for me and my journey over the last couple years. Your recent video with John, DC Schindler, and Jonathan was fantastic. I'm sure this conversation with Jordan will be great as well. Thanks
I was smiling so much listening to you both. Profound joy was my reaction for the whole hour. I can relate to so much of what you're saying, and also the language you are both using provides beautiful new vision to me, as one who speaks "modern science-materialism" and is trying painstakingly to link it to the new things God is breaking and rebuilding in me. By your example you are bringing me along. Thank you for letting us listen to real, honest, vulnerable conversation over quite difficult questions, and for sharing your joy in what you are finding. The Spirit is present in the mind-blowing wonders revealed by St Maximus, and in the penitential joy of my little daughter's diaper, if I'm only willing to see it. So wonderful.
12:00 Personalist, incarnational theology Maximus’s Ambiguum “The Word of God, very God, wills always, and in all things to actualize the mystery of his Incarnation.” Everything is transcendently imminent for those with eyes to see.
@@JordanGreenhall ok. Appreciate what you said in this. Endurance and grace to you as you deal with all these self-identifying Christians celebrating all over you in the coming days. 🙏🏼
Also about Liturgy, very interesting! Recommend that you look into the Theology of the Eastern Orthodox Church it is incredibly rich, loving and deep. Liturgy comes from Greek and means "public work". I have heard two sides of the interpretation what is meant by public work in the context of the Church. One is it is the public work you do together as in each member has a certain role to do. The other is that you interpret public work as the public works an emperor would commission to complete an important public building. To me both of these interpretations makes sense!
Another factor that I think should be explored biblically on this subject of historical trauma and suffering is the spiritual warfare. Strongholds need to be brought down that capitalizing on attacking the body of Christ. The easiest way to lose a war is to ignore the enemy. Based on the conversion testimonies of satanists and witches, there is a lot dark offensives that needs to be considered when trying to understand our struggles. We may need to go on the offensive spiritually as well to solve some problems we face
35:40 re: mercy or even forgiveness. Forgiveness: the law that withstands its own judgment. ❤ Edit: “Be careful you who judge for in to your judgment you condemn yourself…with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.” Measure with absolute forgiveness: everyone wins.
Really enjoying this. Thank you Ken. It’s so uplifting to watch Jordan talk through his entry into Christianity. What a wild experience to enter into coming from his previous framing.
Thank you for sharing this. I'm glad you connected and spoke , I thought that this was probably one of the best conversations I've heard on your channel ❤️ 🌻🌟 God bless you both
It's still frightening to me to admit it, but I think this is right. Gotta be willing to be wrong, and put your full trust in His mercy...all in means all in. Even the parts of me that are wrong.
51:30 - Doing excavation: The storms, chaos, and crises we are experiencing are intended by God to test our foundations, that we might allow their repair and strengthening, that we might be strong houses of refuge, encouragement, and wisdom to those who have lost theirs. This is mostly the challenge and opportunity of this season.
This was a very beautiful conversation. I became a Christian after being a long time atheist then Buddhist while living in the tech and Burning Man scene in San Francisco. I would love to talk about God with you sometime!
Hey Ken. Thanks for the dialogue with Jordan. Forgive if you know this, but church is not a place - it is relationship, community. This is, of course, more and deeper than the words. Place is easily a distraction and confusion. The capture of your attention to Jesus Christ is the key to finding “church.” You are certainly on the right path. Seek and you shall find. God is not hiding. Please let me know if you want to discuss further. Have a strong day in the Lord.
So valuable to engage these deep questions and to revisit them again and then again. I think you're right. I can only see the relationship between Divine and human as being a qualitative-relational one, not a quantitative add-on.
55:07 this is like a “head/heart/hands” view of ecumenicism. A type of Christian pluralism is a type universality/catholiicism. Creed is a compressed and simplified ontology vs the Bible. “One holy catholic Church”
First 10 min. remind me why Karl Barth's theology, esp. his relational ontology is relevant to this. Barth made a huge contribution by radically thinking through the basic being categories from the vantage of God's being-in-action-in-relationship with us through Christ. min 10:49. The cry of dereliction-Hans Urs Von Balthasar's Mysterium Paschale is so good and will speak profoundly to what you are describing of the depth of the relation to God.
It’s very difficult for the intellect to grapple with a Love that’s so encompassing and merciful. It cannot be earned. It stands in such stark contrast to human nature. The most humbling aspect of becoming a Christian, was I learned what is meant by the term “saved”. I was a drowning swimmer, and Christ jumped in to rescue me. Can I take credit for “allowing” him to save me? lol. Christ simultaneously keeps us from ego inflation and getting too high on our own ability while also catching us from going to low through his saving grace and forgiveness of sin.
So I was watching you guys and my wife was sitting next to me. Now she's concerned that I might 'believe in God and all that'... I am in a space where I see what's wrong with our mainstream cultures view on Christianity and how Christianity fits onto the pattern of ever emerging complexity in the universe. So now the challenge is to try to convey this to my wife In a way that doesn't make her think I ate too many mushrooms. Any advice would be greatly appreciated!
haha. I think just be as honest as you can and let the cards fall where they may. I'd try to avoid any weird Christianeze or unhelpful lingo. Most post-religious, post/ex-Christian people are allergic or immunized to traditional language. And rightfully so, imo, most of it has been...neutered or desacralized or bastardized (not sure of the right term). I made up one: de-spirited. I often say, "Tell me about the god you don't believe in. I probably don't believe in them either." Blessings.
This is a tough spot, my sense would be don’t try to push anything, just try to talk about how it feels to you and ask a lot of questions about how the same thing feels to her. “What do you mean by (whatever problematic word)?” Is a question that helps me so much
@@WhiteStoneName de-spitited feels like a good term! In trying to convey (unfortunately, I'm not as eloquent as these two) what I have recently come to see, I was taken aback of how far we are removed 'spiritually'! To be fair, I was the one who insisted our kids not to be baptized years ago as the typical post-religious secular millenial would. Something to work on if she's open to it.
30:58 - 31:03 I think that “I am the truth“ works the other way around. You can’t have a relationship with truth if you don’t have a relationship with the personal truth of loving the person which is the true self, which is Christ in me. In other words, loving, the person always comes first: truth is nested in love Edit: related to my own church trauma, I actually think this is what Western Christianity has always gotten wrong *as a rule*. The mystics in the west understood it.
'Trauma is anti-liturgical' - exactly the argument which Orthodox Christian moral philosopher Timothy Patitsas makes at the beginning of his book 'The Ethics of Beauty'. Worth checking out if it is unfamiliar.
Huh. I have heard a lot about that book and had multiple friends read it, listened to him in podcasts, etc. But I hadn't run into that phrase yet. Interesting. Trauma is anti-liturgical. ie. Takes one out of the work of the people. Or closes one in on themselves. A move from the Person to the Individual, relationally and emotionally? Riffing...
@@WhiteStoneName You should read it. I came at the book from the same starting place as Dr. Patitsas: war/combat trauma, and trying to figure out how healing works. And how it doesn't work. Divine Liturgy is the proper mode of healing, because it brings you into the presence of Christ and allows Him to reorganize you. I have struggled with the ideas of anti-liturgy and false liturgy as well; my wife and I have spent much time arguing back and forth over what they might be. Because in the way I have come to think of it, all ways of being (habit patterns, at the level of the individual or the community) are liturgical in a sense. Everything is oriented toward the worship of something, whether recognized or not. I see trauma slightly differently than how Dr P describes it. He says trauma lies to you and results in anti-liturgy. This is a way to think of it (depending on what is meant precisely by trauma), but I thought of it with my newly applied learning from John Vervaeke: reciprocal narrowing is precisely anti-liturgy. It is demonic, and its telos is annihilation. Non-being. Trauma I relate more to what happens to you when you experience "meaningless pain" as Jordan described it in this video. It breaks you. But upon breaking, you can go in several possible directions. Trauma by itself is not anti-liturgy, but it can result in anti-liturgy if it is the thing that shapes you, or rather continues to break you down, into non-being. Untreated or advanced PTSD is an example, perhaps the example. But trauma experienced in the presence of Truth that rebuilds you, that is, Beauty, is a profound grace. Beauty is terrifying (technically, "horrifying") to the parts of you that are still holding back, but it also draws you into something new. It has an identifiable vector. Suffering is the route I've been exploring deeply. Because at a high enough level of abstraction, suffering and Beauty are actually the same thing.......at least they serve the same purpose. The redemptive phenomenological disclosure to us of God, by God, who loves us. We know this is so, because the Cross is somehow both the worst possible suffering and the greatest possible beauty. I have to imagine, and the stories seem to bear out, that saints actually experience suffering as joy. Because it brings you further into right relation with Christ. Suffering is redeemed. Of course, on the surface of things that doesn't seem to help us with our down-to-earth problems of helping real people with their real suffering. That's why it has to come back down to the level of changing diapers. The participation is presence, not words. Sometimes not even action. Just loving presence. Divine Liturgy. Rightly-oriented community. (Communion.) The very types of community Jordan Hall has been looking for, and it seems has found.
I am cleaning up portions of the transcript to share with my networks. What's an epistemological chef at 48:39? Does it have something to do with breaking a few eggs?
@@JordanGreenhall I have a channel in the little corner called the Friday morning nameless where I do all sorts of styles of videos and topics. But I’ve started hosting conversations in the style of Paul Vanderklay called “Randos” where we get to dig into and share your story kind of autobiography like
Marshall McLuhan's writings on religious faith, especially 'faith as a mode of perception', may interest you both. I wouldn't be surprised if you're already familiar with some of that, though.
Ooooooooo! That sounds awesome. In internet researching it. I came across an article about it in "Second Nature Journal: the medium is the messiah". fyi.
@@WhiteStoneName Thanks for sharing! 'The Medium and the Light: Reflections on Religion' is a book which collects many of his comments on religion and faith.
I’ve been trying to follow some this Vervaeke, Jordan hall meaning talk. It all just sounds like gobbledygook after awhile. Just go be in relation to the church. You’ll be better off for it.
Excellent!
❤
hey ken and i were going to co-commentate at least one episode of after socrates
Jordan seems happy. 😊❤
I am!
Amen! ❤
Oh! Another good one!
We need a Jordan Hall and PVK convo!!
❤
The end of this conversation is basically all about my entire intellectual project in TLC. Confessionalism vs personalist knowledge.
This was really great, Ken. Thanks. ❤
@@brianortiz809 yeah. I don’t think I’m a liberal Protestant at all.
I converted to Orthodox Christianity and consider myself to be…a mystic is probably the best word.
Would love to engage with you more sometime. Probably not in text-based comments like this.
I occasionally livestream and have conversations that people can pop in if they want.
Are you very familiar with Ken’s channel? Or Jordan’s work/videos.
@@WhiteStoneNamedon’t engage with Lukes despirited comments 😂
Glory to God!
Very thankful to be able to watch this. Converted to Eastern Orthodoxy three years ago. Before that I was Agnostic/buddhist/new age, and listened then a lot to Jordan Hall deep code stuff. I always appreciated his thinking process. But since becoming Christian I have missed that type of thinking, also because I am used to talking/thinking about reality in these type of ways. So I am very grateful to hear Jordan and you talking about faith in this video, incredibly of value to me, and the conversation really resonates!
Having listened to Jordan since my journey to Orthodoxy began in 2018 or so, I am consistently happy to see him speaking the way he is. This conversation is lifegiving!
Somehow, Jordan's embrace of Christianity and Christian language has unlocked Jordan Hall's ideas for me. I have points of commonality to relate to his theories and models. It is refreshing and enlivening. I can't wait to listen to more of both of ya'lls stuff
Oh this is really good. Thank you both!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Ken, your videos have been really helpful for me and my journey over the last couple years. Your recent video with John, DC Schindler, and Jonathan was fantastic. I'm sure this conversation with Jordan will be great as well. Thanks
I’m so grateful and honored to have been a part of your journey!
51:32 amen.
I was smiling so much listening to you both. Profound joy was my reaction for the whole hour. I can relate to so much of what you're saying, and also the language you are both using provides beautiful new vision to me, as one who speaks "modern science-materialism" and is trying painstakingly to link it to the new things God is breaking and rebuilding in me. By your example you are bringing me along. Thank you for letting us listen to real, honest, vulnerable conversation over quite difficult questions, and for sharing your joy in what you are finding. The Spirit is present in the mind-blowing wonders revealed by St Maximus, and in the penitential joy of my little daughter's diaper, if I'm only willing to see it. So wonderful.
Thanks Jordan and Ken!
What an encouraging and wonderful conversation. thank you both
12:00 Personalist, incarnational theology
Maximus’s Ambiguum “The Word of God, very God, wills always, and in all things to actualize the mystery of his Incarnation.”
Everything is transcendently imminent for those with eyes to see.
52:52 Alexander Schmemann, For the Life of the World
A book that I own and many people have told me to read, but I haven’t done so yet…🫣
@@WhiteStoneName read it!
@@JordanGreenhall ok. Appreciate what you said in this. Endurance and grace to you as you deal with all these self-identifying Christians celebrating all over you in the coming days. 🙏🏼
Also about Liturgy, very interesting! Recommend that you look into the Theology of the Eastern Orthodox Church it is incredibly rich, loving and deep.
Liturgy comes from Greek and means "public work". I have heard two sides of the interpretation what is meant by public work in the context of the Church. One is it is the public work you do together as in each member has a certain role to do. The other is that you interpret public work as the public works an emperor would commission to complete an important public building. To me both of these interpretations makes sense!
18:30 re: Pageau’s faith description “transcending and moving into a level that we can’t yet fully understand”
And then there’s mosaic vision. 😁
I really like this conversation.
Me too.
Another factor that I think should be explored biblically on this subject of historical trauma and suffering is the spiritual warfare. Strongholds need to be brought down that capitalizing on attacking the body of Christ. The easiest way to lose a war is to ignore the enemy. Based on the conversion testimonies of satanists and witches, there is a lot dark offensives that needs to be considered when trying to understand our struggles. We may need to go on the offensive spiritually as well to solve some problems we face
35:40 re: mercy or even forgiveness.
Forgiveness: the law that withstands its own judgment. ❤
Edit: “Be careful you who judge for in to your judgment you condemn yourself…with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.”
Measure with absolute forgiveness: everyone wins.
Really enjoying this. Thank you Ken. It’s so uplifting to watch Jordan talk through his entry into Christianity. What a wild experience to enter into coming from his previous framing.
❤
Thank you for sharing this. I'm glad you connected and spoke , I thought that this was probably one of the best conversations I've heard on your channel ❤️ 🌻🌟 God bless you both
It is almost as if there's more here , and so I might return again and listen through, but yeah, again, thank you 😊
35:50 very lovely Ken. I think of mercy over sacrifice. You just named something I’ve recently had experience with.
17:25 I am with Bulgakov ❤
It's still frightening to me to admit it, but I think this is right. Gotta be willing to be wrong, and put your full trust in His mercy...all in means all in. Even the parts of me that are wrong.
51:30 - Doing excavation: The storms, chaos, and crises we are experiencing are intended by God to test our foundations, that we might allow their repair and strengthening, that we might be strong houses of refuge, encouragement, and wisdom to those who have lost theirs. This is mostly the challenge and opportunity of this season.
This was a very beautiful conversation. I became a Christian after being a long time atheist then Buddhist while living in the tech and Burning Man scene in San Francisco. I would love to talk about God with you sometime!
Do it!
This sounds like a wonderful and fascinating journey! Happy to chat sometime!
Hey Ken. Thanks for the dialogue with Jordan. Forgive if you know this, but church is not a place - it is relationship, community. This is, of course, more and deeper than the words. Place is easily a distraction and confusion. The capture of your attention to Jesus Christ is the key to finding “church.” You are certainly on the right path. Seek and you shall find. God is not hiding. Please let me know if you want to discuss further. Have a strong day in the Lord.
This discussion is very helpful to me. Thank you
I'm so glad!
So valuable to engage these deep questions and to revisit them again and then again. I think you're right. I can only see the relationship between Divine and human as being a qualitative-relational one, not a quantitative add-on.
55:07 this is like a “head/heart/hands” view of ecumenicism. A type of Christian pluralism is a type universality/catholiicism. Creed is a compressed and simplified ontology vs the Bible. “One holy catholic Church”
Dallas Willard 1:00:34 the reality of The Way, a Christian practice.
First 10 min. remind me why Karl Barth's theology, esp. his relational ontology is relevant to this. Barth made a huge contribution by radically thinking through the basic being categories from the vantage of God's being-in-action-in-relationship with us through Christ. min 10:49. The cry of dereliction-Hans Urs Von Balthasar's Mysterium Paschale is so good and will speak profoundly to what you are describing of the depth of the relation to God.
Amazing. So excited thanks man.
❤
It’s very difficult for the intellect to grapple with a Love that’s so encompassing and merciful. It cannot be earned. It stands in such stark contrast to human nature. The most humbling aspect of becoming a Christian, was I learned what is meant by the term “saved”. I was a drowning swimmer, and Christ jumped in to rescue me. Can I take credit for “allowing” him to save me? lol. Christ simultaneously keeps us from ego inflation and getting too high on our own ability while also catching us from going to low through his saving grace and forgiveness of sin.
Just sounds to me like a special feeling.
So I was watching you guys and my wife was sitting next to me. Now she's concerned that I might 'believe in God and all that'... I am in a space where I see what's wrong with our mainstream cultures view on Christianity and how Christianity fits onto the pattern of ever emerging complexity in the universe. So now the challenge is to try to convey this to my wife In a way that doesn't make her think I ate too many mushrooms. Any advice would be greatly appreciated!
haha. I think just be as honest as you can and let the cards fall where they may. I'd try to avoid any weird Christianeze or unhelpful lingo. Most post-religious, post/ex-Christian people are allergic or immunized to traditional language. And rightfully so, imo, most of it has been...neutered or desacralized or bastardized (not sure of the right term). I made up one: de-spirited.
I often say, "Tell me about the god you don't believe in. I probably don't believe in them either."
Blessings.
This is a tough spot, my sense would be don’t try to push anything, just try to talk about how it feels to you and ask a lot of questions about how the same thing feels to her. “What do you mean by (whatever problematic word)?” Is a question that helps me so much
@@WhiteStoneName de-spitited feels like a good term!
In trying to convey (unfortunately, I'm not as eloquent as these two) what I have recently come to see, I was taken aback of how far we are removed 'spiritually'! To be fair, I was the one who insisted our kids not to be baptized years ago as the typical post-religious secular millenial would.
Something to work on if she's open to it.
Just tell her that the secularization of the world is extremely cringe.
30:58 - 31:03 I think that “I am the truth“ works the other way around. You can’t have a relationship with truth if you don’t have a relationship with the personal truth of loving the person which is the true self, which is Christ in me.
In other words, loving, the person always comes first: truth is nested in love
Edit: related to my own church trauma, I actually think this is what Western Christianity has always gotten wrong *as a rule*.
The mystics in the west understood it.
'Trauma is anti-liturgical' - exactly the argument which Orthodox Christian moral philosopher Timothy Patitsas makes at the beginning of his book 'The Ethics of Beauty'. Worth checking out if it is unfamiliar.
Huh. I have heard a lot about that book and had multiple friends read it, listened to him in podcasts, etc. But I hadn't run into that phrase yet. Interesting.
Trauma is anti-liturgical. ie. Takes one out of the work of the people. Or closes one in on themselves. A move from the Person to the Individual, relationally and emotionally?
Riffing...
Also came to recommend The Ethics of Beauty, but you beat me to it. As soon as he used that phrase I wondered if he had read Dr. P's book.
@@WhiteStoneName You should read it. I came at the book from the same starting place as Dr. Patitsas: war/combat trauma, and trying to figure out how healing works. And how it doesn't work. Divine Liturgy is the proper mode of healing, because it brings you into the presence of Christ and allows Him to reorganize you.
I have struggled with the ideas of anti-liturgy and false liturgy as well; my wife and I have spent much time arguing back and forth over what they might be. Because in the way I have come to think of it, all ways of being (habit patterns, at the level of the individual or the community) are liturgical in a sense. Everything is oriented toward the worship of something, whether recognized or not.
I see trauma slightly differently than how Dr P describes it. He says trauma lies to you and results in anti-liturgy. This is a way to think of it (depending on what is meant precisely by trauma), but I thought of it with my newly applied learning from John Vervaeke: reciprocal narrowing is precisely anti-liturgy. It is demonic, and its telos is annihilation. Non-being. Trauma I relate more to what happens to you when you experience "meaningless pain" as Jordan described it in this video. It breaks you. But upon breaking, you can go in several possible directions. Trauma by itself is not anti-liturgy, but it can result in anti-liturgy if it is the thing that shapes you, or rather continues to break you down, into non-being. Untreated or advanced PTSD is an example, perhaps the example. But trauma experienced in the presence of Truth that rebuilds you, that is, Beauty, is a profound grace. Beauty is terrifying (technically, "horrifying") to the parts of you that are still holding back, but it also draws you into something new. It has an identifiable vector.
Suffering is the route I've been exploring deeply. Because at a high enough level of abstraction, suffering and Beauty are actually the same thing.......at least they serve the same purpose. The redemptive phenomenological disclosure to us of God, by God, who loves us. We know this is so, because the Cross is somehow both the worst possible suffering and the greatest possible beauty. I have to imagine, and the stories seem to bear out, that saints actually experience suffering as joy. Because it brings you further into right relation with Christ. Suffering is redeemed.
Of course, on the surface of things that doesn't seem to help us with our down-to-earth problems of helping real people with their real suffering. That's why it has to come back down to the level of changing diapers. The participation is presence, not words. Sometimes not even action. Just loving presence. Divine Liturgy. Rightly-oriented community. (Communion.) The very types of community Jordan Hall has been looking for, and it seems has found.
I am cleaning up portions of the transcript to share with my networks. What's an epistemological chef at 48:39? Does it have something to do with breaking a few eggs?
Curious what kind of networks
The remnant of Rebel Wisdom, New Thought, and Black Baptists@@mostlynotworking4112
The remnant of Rebel Wisdom, Black Baptists, and New Thought @@mostlynotworking4112
Read the passion through the lens of psalm 22.
Holy cow. Ballin’ ❤
Here come the comments…
I’d love to have Jordan on as a rando. Jordan this gets a call to you, an invite.
I’m not sure what that means.
@@JordanGreenhall I have a channel in the little corner called the Friday morning nameless where I do all sorts of styles of videos and topics. But I’ve started hosting conversations in the style of Paul Vanderklay called “Randos” where we get to dig into and share your story kind of autobiography like
@@ChadTheGirlDad if you reckon someone would be interested in my story … however it will have to be closer to March. I’ve gotten pretty busy.
@@JordanGreenhall Can we shoot for may please? I’m fully booked with conversation partners until then. Also how might I email you?
Marshall McLuhan's writings on religious faith, especially 'faith as a mode of perception', may interest you both. I wouldn't be surprised if you're already familiar with some of that, though.
Ooooooooo! That sounds awesome. In internet researching it. I came across an article about it in "Second Nature Journal: the medium is the messiah". fyi.
@@WhiteStoneName Thanks for sharing! 'The Medium and the Light: Reflections on Religion' is a book which collects many of his comments on religion and faith.
Faith is inevitable and universal. It’s where you decide to put that faith.
I'd be REALLY curious to hear how Jordan stumbled upon Alexander Schmemann...
6:00 I think this opening theme (third person rationalist, repeatable etc) is PVKs monarchical vision and scientific lab leak
I’ve been trying to follow some this Vervaeke, Jordan hall meaning talk. It all just sounds like gobbledygook after awhile. Just go be in relation to the church. You’ll be better off for it.