Whether you're a hunter, outdoor enthusiast, military professional, or law enforcement officer, Armasight’s Night Vision and Thermal Imaging gear offers durability, reliability, and top performance you can trust. Check out the full line at: armasight.com/
Haha, I like their 3,5x Vulcan NVG scope in Tarkov. I made a montage of kills using it and other odd scopes in a video on my channel, its almost the last one called "SCOPES". Also, a funny coincidence today I finished my 14 kills SAG AK + Thermal challenge and the last kill finishing this challenge was against a guy that looted (I think from Cultists on Shoreline) the gun from your video - 6,8mm SIg Sauer....... I posted a video from this challenge like 2 hours ago. This SAG 5.45 AK is a civlian semi-auto AK, I found they dont make AKs but just a chasis kit that is a M.LOK handguard + railed receiver combined together haha, in game it very low recoil and a great ergo, with silencer and thermal it still had 64 So when ur video popped up 40 mins ago I just finished my Peacekeeper 3 tasks to get the FMJ ammo, I'm going to use that Sig Sauer with Thermal now as kind of a Marksmanship rifle, mostly using semi-auto and I'm going to get one 25-round magazine
M855 was 51k+ PSI. M855A1 is over 61k PSI. The SP version of the 6.8x51 is an Uber-magnum. Which begs the question: what kind of lining are they using on the barrel?
Unfortunately the US military machine has mostly been short sighted when it comes to new hardware that doesn’t always get to there troops until it’s too late. I hope that the regulars are outfitted with the new gear sooner than later, especially not having to wait until the early 2030’s. Just my two cents.
People are frustrating... -Complaining that the M16 was heavy is nuts. - Hey not only is this rifle too heavy it's too long. - Ok it's lighter & we took 6-8 inches off the barrel.... - Hey this thing isn't dropping targets at distance! - Ok here's a Ox of a rifle with a bigger bullet. - This thing is heavy and it doesn't hold as much ammo! Here's to going in circles....again.
It depends on the use case. And in most Cassie’s more shots is better than bigger shots (because bigger shots usually come from something that is rolling or flying anyway).
Basically. They just want back to the M1 Garand / M-14 battle rifle approach.They could have at least have done it in a way that takes into account new wisdom, not just repeat the old regular rifle big bullet model. They could have used a newer style of bullet, such as 6.5CM, that outperforms the 308 in range and power while having substantially less recoil, closer to 5.56, and maybe put that in a bullpup, so you have something relatively compact for CQC but that still has a 16" barrell and can develop large velocities and range.
@@zelenisokHave you seen the rifle that general dynamics made for this project, the RM277? Garand thumb has a video on it and its pretty similar to what you're describing
@Micah-y3n he was the one that inspired me to get into engineering lmao. We live near a lake and one time he was on the beach, just staring at the sky at night. I stopped by to ask what was up, and he told me he was using the NoDs he was issued in Mosul to stargaze. Absolute baller
"The extra weight's not a big deal, you stop noticing it after a few days" Their testing program is amazing: they somehow got testimony from the Army without actually talking to any soldiers.
Ounces make pounds and pounds make pain. The added pounds added ammo weight ( it's reduced ammo load out) will hamper the infantrymens mobility and ammo capacity. I feel this new XM7's use will be best suited to a designated squad or platoon marksman role. The new XM250 machine gun might just be a winner for the platoons weapons squad. More capability and lighter weight. As an ex Army infantry officer ( grunt, not a pog/ RIMF) you already have to carry a very heavy load and you can never carry enough ammo in a fire fight. That leaves one to consider the true value of said new system in the real world environment.
Ya these are the most mainstream media type of interviews and quotes about this thing. Every soldier you see on a guntubers videos or wtvr….they aren’t huge fans
We got ours and were told that we were going to fill out a survey with feedback back on the xm7. Guess who never got the survey?! The soldiers lol they dont care what we think they basically said heres the new rifle. Start shooting and rucking. I will say the weight difference takes its toll when its carried with a full ruck and combat load.
@@jonasgilliam-hh5py Why care, they signed the dotted line so the grunt is property till they ship home. Only good thing about this rifle is it will probably not get used for decades to come.
Hence why the M1 carbine was more effective and used in WWII than the garand. Oh, no, troops were actively told not to use the thing because it was not great(tm) at penetration and stopping power.
@@fraleo2192 One dif/concern is that your FAL was a "clean" weight. Modern weapons are frequently quoted for weight as if scopes, lights, lasers, or other furniture are not going to be attached. There are some comments here that 14lbs will be the LOW end for the Spear.
@@svenrio8521 It's hard to disagree with that, but you should also consider the effect of lobbyists lining pockets one way or another. That heads it towards the corruption side. Either way it's got to get fixed.
Agreed. It's unfortunate that some commenters here and on Reddit didn't watch the whole episode where if they had the host later mentions that 1. the host is only quoting the "Army Times" and 2. kinda mentions some of the "downsides" of the rifle and that the "Army Times" might not be an unbiased source of information. Same goes for the "Stars and Stripes" publication.
As a soldier in the 101st on the ground with these weapons I can say the attitude towards the xm7 is NOT a positive one . Most people agree that it should be in an SDMR position . The 250 however is a welcome change , love it
It’s almost like the weight isn’t a concern to people who don’t have to actually carry it ….. I can tell you I’ve never hear anyone say the increase in weight is “negligible”
“Thank you sir, I’m very happy you’ve taken away my high tec rifle took years to develop & gets the job done & replaced it with this 50lb bag of rocks AND a sling to try & hit something with, couldn’t be happier” Every soldier with a brain ever when asked their “opinion”
@@patrickancona1193 I didn’t say there problems with the weapons system, just that when soldiers making very public comments, they may be afraid to speak the truth. If the Army really wants to know how the troops feel about the new rifle, they should conduct an anonymous survey.
@@crusaderman4043 Yes, but at unacceptable costs: monetary cost, weight of gun, size & weight of ammo, recoil. The army could just equip all soldiers with 7.62 NATO rifles & ammo with the new optics at a much lower price.
The Roman shield weighs 20 lb and is carried on the left hand while the Romans wore 40 lb of body armor. A long pike weighs about 13 lb and is held near the end making it forward heavy. A decked out M1 rifle weighs 11lb. Time to hit the gym.
@@orlock20True, but put a modern military against the Romans and they'd wipe the floor with em. You have a point that it's not so heavy it can't be carried, but there are other factors to consider, like how fatigued a troop is after a long day of marching with the weapon. You also have to be much more precise with a gun, if your shield is slanted at 3°, that's nothing, but if your gun is 3° off target, you are inaccurate. Basically, it'd be easier to operate a 20lb shield with no support than to aim a 20lb rifle with no support.
"The 6,8 mm round would be better for plunking thru those walls" ~ meaning walls made of cinder blocks. Building construction in Europe (I live in The Netherlands) is different but we don't use cinder blocks, we use reinforced concrete. And that's a whole different ball game. The walls of my apartment are made of 18 cm (7+ inch) reinforced concrete and there is no way the 6,8 mm would punch thru that, not even a penetrator.
Austria the Same. My Outside walls of the Apartment Complex I live in are probably 30cm thick. With even the inner Walls being made of Rebar Reinforced Concrete. You need a Tank Shell or an RPG to blast these Walls. Don't know what US People think what we build our Houses from but Cinder Blocks are used for Sheds here
Not invading netherlands, but fighting in Ukraine or against Russian-affiliated troops in europe is absolutely possible, the m4 has been in service for years, who’s to say how long the xm7 will stay and where it will be used in the future.
The XM7 is the modern version of the M14. We want a bigger bullet. But will ultimately find it too bulky for most use cases. So it goes into a support role.
But who really wants a bigger bullet? Usually soldiers want MORE bullets. And 5.56 is pretty good for conscripts and other less “infantry whooa!” Types of soldiers. They are easy to handle and hit something with even with less training. Sure, soldiers doing lots of shooting can do well with a bigger caliber but generally not the bulk of the army.
As a SAW gunner in Afghanistan, I would have loved to have had the XM250. This definitely seems more like a DMR than a gun to give to everyone. Losing basically three mags of ammo and lowered CQB seems like a losing proposition. Maybe the increased accuracy and efficiency of the optic makes up for it, but in my experience sending a high volume of lead down range denies the enemy the ability to maneuver or fire effectively is what wins firefights.
@giftzwerg7345 unfortunately it doesn't work like, you would still only be able to use the same rates of fire. The advantage is in logistics as 2 nature's of ammunition are effectively replaced with one, however the machine gun being belt fed kind of still means that it is two. The likely scenario in a war is that the machine guns link would be broken down to provide enough ammunition for the rifles during ammunition shortages, due to the rifle being better for ammunition preservation.
The positives: +Higher penetration The negatives: -Heavier -Fewer rounds in the mag and carried -Harder to maintain -No allied soldier can hand you spare ammo -Ammo costs are 20x higher The grunts are going to hate it. Although they won't care about the monetary costs.
I only met very very few soldiers and civs that "like" it. I did not see much praise at all besides the penetration. Thats not really a shining star upgrade when you got 12.7mm and 20mm out there usually as well. Also I held one, its heavier for very little to no benefit, have fun clearing corners with that chunky shit lol. Not a fan of the profile either.
You can add a bit more positives to the XM-7 like longer reach, body armor and light vehicle armor busting capability but that was it... Not a big advancement at all. Maybe a good choice for desert and open field battle but not in a city which also includes CQB operations.
They went with the 5.56 specifically because it doesn't over penetrate, they wanted the round to dump all it's energy into it's target and not continue through and hit a potential non-combatant, the fact that the Army is pushing for these now tells me they're preparing for operations outside of the urban settings we've been in the past few decades. I'm sure they'll keep the M4 around specifically for urban ops, but it sounds to me like they're serious about being ready for a real military opponent.
Who do you predict will be the next country the USA will get into war with? We know that 5.56 struggled in desert combat which is why the .277 fury or 6.8 is being developed. I'll take a wild guess by saying Russia
Former Navy public affairs officer here - TLDR, this is 100% NOT what soldiers *really* think of the XM7. Officially released troop “feedback,” quotes given to “Stars & Stripes,” these are all carefully managed by DOD PAOs (public affairs officers). It’s called “command information,” aka, propaganda. Info produced for public release won’t contain factual errors…but it (generally) will also *never* include negative criticism.
@@dead-claudia sure. My point is, & I state this with true respect for all our servicemembers, officially released “feedback” from active duty isn’t a credible source. That’s not the fault of the soldiers; that’s just PAOs doing their job. It’d be like calling a tobacco PR rep’s answer about cigarette health affects “facts.”
I don't know how they managed to pick the few guys who actually like it. My 2 buddies I went to osut with in 506 say the gun is comically heavy and you can only carry like 140 rounds. They said the optic is dope as hell though
The weight isn't an issue, until it turns out that overland speed and range reduce for the footsoldier carrying the thing in combat conditions. You can't gym your way out of physics.
Yeah, anyone who says weight isn't an issue has never had to carry 120lb+ for weeks on end. Every gram counts, especially when your life is on the line. It'd be excusable if they weren't trying to make every soldier a marksmen for no reason, we operate with combined arms specifically so your average grunt doesn't need to engage a technical with his rifle half a mile away.
@@Xynth25 This most likely be a 50-year rifle. 50 years was the difference between the bi-plane in service and the F-15 in service. We don't know where drone and robot technology will be going in 50 years. Those rifles might be going against T-800s for all we know.
Do you want to know why I like your channel? It's not just because it's interesting, educational, and amusing, but because it's not like the countless other channels that seem intent on tearing down people who think or look differently than the commentator. It's nice to *just* learn something, without someone trying to implicitly tell you to hate someone else. Keep it up, man.
It's easy to impress someone with a new range toy. Living 99.92% of your infantryman life not firing your gun...the extra 4 lbs. in your arms will get old really quick. "living" with your gun is a big component of a common infantry weapon. Carrying it, stashing it, getting in/out of vehicles, cleaning it, maintaining it, etc. Almost more important than any other aspect of your basic infantry weapon. I think this weapon and it's insane optic will be fine for special units, but will never make it into the hands of your average grunt (fortunately). Direct action elements, and special sauce boys will probably appreciate it's capabilities.
Not to mention we operate with combined arms specifically so your average grunt doesn't need to engage targets half a mile out with his rifle. Looking forward to command slowly admitting they didn't actually test this with anyone who knows what they're talking about and delay until everyone forgets... again.
Having to present the weapon on-target quickly equals living vs dying. This is a major step away from a good weapon in that regard, as all the weight is forward due to that stupid gas piston system and weak folding stock.
When we are talking about "punching through steel" keep in mind 3 things, 1) the type of steel (is it a high RHC or something akin to armored steel with a hardness of 450-600) 2) the type or "composition" of 5.56 or 6.8, meaning what type of 6.8 is being used compared to the 5.56 (M995) that would likely penetrate that amount of steel 3) what barrel length was being used to fire that projectile=what speed the projectile was moving when it penetrated that amount of steel
It's mild steel. If it's steel at all and not a very soft iron alloy. Targets aren't made of hardened steel, ricochets would cause safety problems. This AP round will not go through any armored vehicle, not even close. It's a gigantic scam, 15 bucks a round is going to make some people who are already rich even richer. And the grunts will have a heavier rifle with less ammo when all statistics show you need on average a very large amount of rounds fired to achieve a kill. The M4 is plenty accurate by the way, it's not the rifle that causes that hit to miss ratio. Most fire is suppressive fire and when you only have 20 rounds and fewer mags keeping suppressive fire on a target is going to be a problem.
Yeah, saying something "punches through steel" is like saying "it flies". Paper airplanes fly, and so does the most advanced aircraft in the world, but at *very* different degrees. Overall just seems like a downgrade IMO, heavier, less overall rounds per soldier, smaller magazine so we get a bit more range and pen despite operating with combined arms so your average grunt doesn't need to take out technicals with his rifle lol.
@6:40. It sounds like this rifle is more fitted as a Designated Marksman’s (DM) rifle, instead of an every infantrymen rifle. Because of the increased weight, decreased ammo capacity, different round than normal military units and the rounds ability to reach out and seriously touch someone.
I get the feeling they are gearing more toward a UMG focused squad again. And you want ammo commonality. The machine guns are far more important in large set piece battles. This whole thing feels like a throwback to the logic of sticking with 7.62 after ww2.
Yep, heavier, smaller magazine, less rounds overall, etc. Just seems like a massive downgrade when your individual soldier isn't meant to be a marksmen, there's a reason we operate with volume of fire and combined arms, specifically so your average grunt doesn't need to take out a technical half a mile away with his rifle. Well, at least some politicians will make bank on their investments right?
@@Stealth86651with the optic/technology it seems like the military is pivoting towards attempting to make every infantryman a marksman. Not sure it will work out look Iike planned
The official M-16 load out may claim to be 210 rounds of 5.66/.233 , but in real life....We carried a load out of 1,500 rds of .233 for our M-16 issue rifles in 1980-1984 when my boots were on the ground. Grenades were everywhere we could stash them. As an officer I also carried a 1911A1 with 5 mags total. With a K bar and a bayonet we swam with scuba gear, hauling this load out. We wished we could carry more. Everyone also carried at least one belt for our 4 M-60's per platoon of marines, or with a SEAL team squad to help us. Thank you SEAL TEAM 4, from Roosevelt Roads, PR. You saved my life.
I call BS. First of all, .233? I assume you mean .223....and by that, you would really mean 5.56. 1500 rounds of .223/5.56 is about 40 pounds, just for the ammo. No chance a single individual is carrying 40 pounds of ammo on top of regular load out, and apparently scuba gear. If you meant 1500 rounds spread out amongst a whole fire team, possible, but that is not what you wrote...and the fact that you got the ammo types wrong in multiple spots shows that wasn't a typo. Oh, and it is Marine...always a capital M, always.
@@devildogcody Sounds like a regular Butter Bar to me, can't read a map and compass or get their facts straight, I (Army MP PSD Team leader) carried an extra eight loaded mags in my ready bag but I was usually close to a vehicle or chopper while on mission, Afghanistan 2007-2008 and 2010-2012
When I was in the US Army, we had m16's. In about 2004, this was too long and slowed down soldiers being transported via HMMWV. I would like to own my own XM7. For protection of my residence of course, I have nothing to compensate for!
I remember seeing that Sig had a 9” barreled version of this weapon, so I wonder if that’s something they’ll move forward with. It seems like that would be a lot easier to maneuver around with in CQB environments.
So, ‘I have nothing to compensate for,” could be interpreted two ways. 1. Whatever you have requires no compensation OR 2. You literally have nothing so compensation is unnecessary. The second interpretation is probably the more precise use of language.
Personally, I think they would be better if they went to each rifle squad and upgraded them with 1-2 XM7s for designated marksmen and one of the machine gunners with an XM250. I know it would add a logistical burden, but >90% of engagements are won by the quantity of lead, not the quality of the round. It would add the additional capability without majorly sacrificing the squads ammunition capacity.
The army probably wants soldiers to kill faster with fewer shots. Because the more lead you fire down range, the more sound and light you generate. Sound will make you an target for any enemy artillery that can hear you. Light will get you killed by drones at night. The marines are so worried about sound that they're starting to issue suppressors across the board.
This. I think quantity of bullets per soldier is vastly underestimated. Ukrainian soldiers usually surrender because they run out of bullets, not because they couldn’t penetrate Russian airsoft quality vests.
Yep, also ignores that in generall soldiers shoot okay, not amazingly. The amount of time and training it takes to get someone from "okay" to "great" in order to actually use this rifle to the full extent will never happen. Also we sorta operate with combined arms specifically so your average grunt doesn't need to engage targets half a mile out with his rifle lol.
I instructed in rifle marksmanship, for US Army under contract, and LE. With a higher recoiling rifle shoulder placement, sling, and forearm grip all become more critical. This can be overcome with a serious amount of training. But even with optics it's doubtful that engagements will be farther than 200 meters away. On a battlefield that isn't a desert, just farmland in middle US, you cant see 800 meters. Too many things in the way and they wont be on a Known distance range. With targets moving at angles and with less than 10 seconds to engage wil it hit? Doubtful. Even with new optic I would be very surprised at even 500 meters that a target that doesn't want to be hit , would be.
Not to mention at those ranges you shouldn’t be shooting and giving away your position, you should be calling in support assets like call for fire, CAS, tanks, or Bradley’s.
Should Pin this msg. Also I do believe it was the best of the worse. The caseless gun was a no go and no confidence in the ergo design and others and seems dirty(familiar problem?), The bullpup was sweet and great ammo, but we won't go with an bulpup are we, it just, beyond any technical, psychologically just is bad plus culturally doesn't fit. The army really wanted the XM250 and it was sweet and they came in a package. TBH, select backtroop can have the bullpup and in select situation. Also i thought they could have mixed up the gun and ammo to use TVelocity ammo. Perhaps and hoping in the future.
@@danwilliams5867 I think the point isn't to be lethal at 500 meters but to have effective suppression. Part of the reason the Marines got rid of their machine guns is they found that well-aimed shots were just as effective at suppression as spraying bullets from an inaccurate machine gun. And if you have some idea of the equipment your adversary is working with, you improve your ability to maneuver with the additional standoff range because they can't effectively return fire.
Soilders will be able to carry less ammo, and as the Great Erwin Rommel said - "In a man-to-man fight, the winner is he who has one more round in his magazine." We also learned this lesson in Vietnam....
Erwin Rommel was a coward who lost most of his troops, didn't follow orders and had to poison himself. Guess the extra round in his magazine didn't help him.
What they are not telling you is how much they love the new optic... I am not joking when I say this, I have seen the tests and demonstrations, that new optic makes shooting that rifle almost like a video game. It's almost like playing Battlefield 4, you can "tag" multiple targets and it remembers the location, distance, wind speed and direction so all you have to do is point the crosshair directly at the target and it does the rest for you, BAM rounds on target at range. Again, I am not making this up, that optic is that good, it has a built in laser rangefinder, and atmospheric monitor built into it.
Forgetting about the batteries that will go dead as soon as you need them...Does a Laser Range Finder emit something that could be detected by an opposing force? Giving that force a bearing and range? A bunch of Privates with lasers...Sounds like a GREAT IDEA.
@@warbuzzard7167 no, smaller fast ships definitely. Your brain jumps to warship and that's silly but there are plenty of smaller vessels where it could be in crazy efficient
@@warbuzzard7167nice logic bro. Cause Russia is gonna be using revell model ships in their navy. Of course we’re talking about smaller boats. Not full fledged warships
@@kyledabearsfan My first thought was 'swift boat'. I am quite surprised that someone might actually think 'Mighty Mo'.😄 Love the 'Battleship' movie, btw.
XM7 weakness = heavy weight, barrel length too long, short mag capacity, not ideal for CQB, & slower to draw. Strengths = range, rate of fire, penetration, ideal for sniping with attached Sig LVPO/MVPO. Please redesign? Most the average build kids in the army won't like it much carrying that hunk of steel.. also it will not make you faster in a gun draw.
20rd mags instead of 30 is a huge deal too. A bog complaint with the M14 and early M16 was the small 20rd mags while the VC got AK's with 30's. Wonder what those soldiers would think about the Army going back to huge 20rd mags again.
@@theflyingfish66its crazy how fast militaries can forget, like, one of the key lessons of Viet Nam: volume of fire usually wins, because most people are too scared sh*tless to do any of the other things that could win a gun fight.
I was wondering what the regular soldier will use to zero and qualify with,which is still a big issue in the army. Lots of soldiers don't shoot very well,most have trouble zeroing and qualifying with the M-4.I'm speaking from experience,did 7 yrs in the army and volunteered to go on 4 deployments to go fight in Iraq with Texas Guard infantry units ( also did 2 tours back-to back ) boy,was I-CRAZY-I look back now and wonder what was I thinking ??? LOL. Or smoking ??? LOL.
XM-7 be used as a DMR and same 6.8 round in the light machine gun? Develop smaller round for standard infantry? I mean isn't that what we have now? i.e. 5.56 and .308.
@@Keithustus That's true,but,what happens if soldiers ( there's a reason things in the army are called soldier proof ) break the optics or it malfunctions ??? I'd have soldiers shoot with optics,then shoot using iron sights.
@@grogdizzy5814 i guess its the same as with most other rifles. If you git the dronw its going down, i think most Rifle calibers would probably do that
The truth is it’s a total POS. That’s from retired JSOC guys who are dealing with it back for big Army as contact officers managing acquisitions. Their words, “This thing is a total abortion.” Guys from within PEO said major subcontractors are pulling out because they can’t get the systems to work, and don’t want their brand name associated with failure. Notice that Ranger Regiment, SF, and JSOC are avoiding this POS like the plague.
I’m curious, for the soldiers that said the weight was negligible, did they actually ruck with the rifle 10 to 20 miles, or did they just shoot it at the range?
Cappy said something interesting that I'd never really considered. If his point about the chamber pressure of the spicy round is about the same as being 3 miles deep, that means those poor bastards in the Oceansgate sub got to feel what it's like inside the chamber of an XM7
Yeah, I will believe them AFTER they have gone on long patrols, firefights and carrying that load all day every day! Also, doubt they would say anything bad about them, this was clearly a very controlled environment!
Yep...as I mentioned in my own response, 99.92% of the time an infantry is just carrying his gun...or cleaning it...or moving in and out of vehicles with it. In essence "living" with it. Shooting a gun prone at a range is not anything like living with it day-to-day. Taking it to the sh_t-shed in your shorts while at a FOB, etc.
I'd take this rifle hands down. The stopping power is something that I want and I would carry extra weight for. I mean come on, not that it's a good thing, but the weights we carry just keep going up and up. I'd still take it.
You're ignoring the key advantages the XM7 is bringing. One of the main issues with the M4 and its 5.56 round is that it struggles against body armor and cover at longer ranges. The XM7 fixes this issue and then some. Yes it is heavier and carries less ammo, but this is a necessary loss to gain the ability to overcome near-pear threats that make heavy use of body armor.
"I need a heavier rifle capable of laying down better suppressive fire and with better stopping power" said every infantryman ever stfu and re-enlist or keep it pushing normie.
If the Rifle Platoon gets this, I would keep the M4 for Squad Leader, RTO's, Medic, Ammo Bearers in Weapon Squad. Comparable to the role of the M1/M2 carbine from the 40's to the 60's.
I agree but the whole point of this rifle and the XM250 was to get everyone on the same caliber, including machine gunners who previously would've had a M240 in 7.62. One caliber that rules them all so to speak. So it has the same energy as a 7.62, with weight and recoil somewhere in the middle of 5.56 and 7.62, so you get the best of both worlds. This comes with a lot of compromise though as does anything
Many not the best weapon system as a standard infantry rifle but put a couple in a squad as a marksman, squad leader rifle and machine gunner and you've got an absolute banger
Ok, usual thing that happens when Squaddies get a new bit of kit is that they manage to break it 20 mins later in ways the designers couldnt have imagined...
Not yet , negative feedback will start to leak here and there , then it’ll reach even the friendly outlets eventually , by then it’ll be safe to assume the brass has already decided to cancel the program
"So it is better because it is bigger and more powerful than a 556?" said the 7.62x51, and 30/06 interjects, back in my day sonny, we went through full trees to show our stuff...
@@andrewreynolds4949 It would have higher penetration, yes, but not as much energy. A 30.06 Springfield, what the M1 Garand used, comes in 3,800 to 4,100 joules of energy with a 7.62 mm bullet that was FMJ copper with a lead core. The hybrid rounds for AP the Spear is firing have only 3,650 joules of energy according to the manufacturer's specs. If that is what the Army's ammo is at, we don't know. It could be heavier and/or faster, so more energy than that. It having a special composition tom make it penetrate better, mainly something really dense and hard, like, say, a tungsten rod or tip, or some other technology in the round, is where it really performs well. The round penetrating body armor and killing the target wearing it is another thing it does better. A pine or other soft wood tree the 30.06 would go through better. A hardwood tree, like oak or a tropical hardwood would likely favor the Spear's rounds. But they aren't killing treas with this. The US uses Napalm for that anyway...
@@andrewreynolds4949The 308 runs at 55kpsi. The 277 runs at 80kpsi. If you construct a 308 with the steel case head and jack it up to the same pressure, there's no real advantage to the 277. Apples to apples.
@@CR67 and then redesign every 308 platform from the ground up so the rifle doesn't just shit itself after a magazine from the massively increased chamber pressure
Everyone having a suppressor might be a bad thing. I believe that it was Carlos Hathcock (might've been John Plaster) that said that during a fight he was being chased/shot at, and the enemy was ignoring his unit shooting back and kept charging. Since they all had suppressors, the enemy wasn't even aware they were being shot at.
My biggest worry is the change in tactics for suppressing fire and drawn out engagements. The decrease in ammo and increase in fatigue is going to have huge effects on the battlefield. Body armor or not, nobody wants to be hit by a bullet. Just because 5.56 wont outright kill someone with plates, doesn't mean it has physical and huge psychological effects. The extra ammo means you can afford to suppress your enemy continue to maneuver. It wont be the same with the new weapon. People are going to have to relearn everything.
thing is, bigger bullets you know can rip through your body armor coming from from 800m away will have a much worse psychological impact than ammo you know your body armor can take coming from 200m away. light ammo from 200m away you have a chance of surviving, and you'd likely be able to see where it came from. heavy ammo from 800m away renders your body armor useless, and you'd never be able to find where it came from. it takes fewer shots to effectively pin, which is kinda the point of suppressive fire.
even if the 5.56mm won't outright kill the torso-armoured enemy, that doesn't mean his unarmoured limbs might not get hit and get wounded and this might be an even worse capability loss, since he is just wounded, the squad would have to expend another guy to carry him back
@@dead-claudia I don't know anyone who has been shot at that has ever felt invincible in the moment, usually the opposite. The psychological effect of getting shot at is the same, especially since the enemy sure as hell isn't thinking in the moment what kind of new gun the enemy is shooting you with. If anything, the part they care about most is the rate of fire, accuracy, and how much ammo they have. Two things the XM7 loses to the M4 in.
It's way heavier and carries less ammo, I'm willing to bet the general consensus among grunts is that it's not that great. Stars and stripes isn't an unbiased source lol
I have 12 relatives in Ukraine fighting on the frontline. NONE of them said they would trade the ability to carry more ammo for a rifle that weighs more, even if it is more precise and has more stopping power. Russian body armor is mostly garbage and they say even the 5.56 given to them from the west usually kills the russians with armor... also noting, in their experience, only about 30% of the Russian soldiers they find dead even have actual body armor equipped (most are just given a carrier, with no actual plates inside). They say asking them to cut their ammo supply down by 40% or more would be a death sentence, since a vast majority of gunfighting in Ukraine by infantry is suppressive in nature, NOT on-target aimed shots. Less ammo means less ability to suppress enemies, which to my cousins, they say is far more important than having a more precise / harder hitting rifle in the few times they can actually SEE the soldier they are shooting at.
If there's anything to learn from the russo-ukrainian war - firearms are rarely even used, and when they are - it happens at such a distance where caliber and ballistics barely matter. Also, an average grunt is already carrying way too much stuff and specialists like LMG gunners are expiriencing constant back issues. I'd rather carry a portable jammer that may protect me from drones than a chunk of a rifle I'm not even sure I'm gonna use.
@@ОлегКорнійчук-е1х This is the experience of my cousins and uncles fighting in Ukraine. Most (all in fact) have killed Russian soldiers, but they say 9 times out of 10, it was with blind suppressive fire at range, not precision shots. Both sides exchange a constant barrage of bullets, the winner is usually the one with a better position and more ammo. Ukrainians carry about 50% more ammo (100%+ more if the Russian is a prisoner conscript, they usually only have 1 or 2 mags on them) per infantryman than the average Russian soldier does. None of them said they would ever trade more ammo for a more precise / harder hitting rifle. The reality of war is very different from expectation of war. Everyone thinks they're going to have clean lines of sight from a safe position aiming at an enemy soldier. In reality, you CAN'T see your enemy 90% of the time due to concealment, range and constant suppression / flying dirt etc. So both sides just suppress one another, with random blind-fired bullets doing most of the small-arms killing in infantry combat. But the bulk of actual kills comes from which side can call in drone support, artillery or utilize mortar strikes to kill the other side first. Speaking to one of my cousins, he says he's killed far more Russians with lobbed grenades than he has with his rifle. "I suppress the enemy position with my rifle while we get closer... then we kill them with grenades. We usually never even see them, ever. We just find their bodies afterwards."
@@ОлегКорнійчук-е1х yes. But we must remember Taiwan is not Ukraine. Drone operations are trickier in an heavy jungle. Blasting the opponent into submission with artillery is trickier in the heavy jungle. We're fighting in Vietnam conditions again. That's why they are giving us the rifle that the M14 claimed to be. A 20 round rifle that's controllable in full auto, with enough penetration to punch through tree's.
I'm part of the over 50 crowd and I don't have any war stories to share, but I do have some personal anecdotes. After I retired to rural Montana I decided I needed a bigger thumper to deal with any predators that got too close to my home, family, pets, or livestock. Over the course of a couple of years I engaged wolves, coyotes, and cougars at ranges from under 20 meters to over 100 meters with a scope mounted FAL in 7.62 NATO. The result of these encounters was apparently all misses. The FAL proved too awkward to swing and engage at close range, plus the scope made it difficult to judge where to aim. Even when using the scope at 100m meters on coyotes, I was missing them by a wide margin as they ran. My takeaway from this was a need for a light handy iron-sighted carbine, so I returned to using the AR15. While not ideal bear medicine (I have other long guns for them), the AR remains king of CQB and out to 250 meters without a need for any sight change or fancy optics.
@@donaldmartin4980 No, I checked it for accuracy afterwards and nothing had shifted. It's simply an awkward rifle to maneuver quickly and easily. This is equally true of the AR10, G3, M1, and M14. From a well supported rest they perform well. Offhand or from an unstable support they are trickier to handle than an AR15.
@@Paladin1873 Just looking at what your application of this weapon was ….have you ever considered a short barrel lever action carbine in .357 magnum?.. 125 grain loads get 2,100 to 2250 fps great for self defense and coyotes, 158 grain for deer, 180 grain for hogs or black bear. Not to mention .38 special for small problems ….they handle fast, virtually no recoil, hit hard, nine in the tube another nine on a butt cuff…and it all weighs about 5.5 pounds. I have a Rossi M 92, 16 inch barrel .357 magnum…..it gets used about 90 percent of the time around my place. They need a little clean up of rough edges and set of skinner sights but they are a pretty awesome little tool in my humble opinion.
@@donaldmartin4980 Yes, I keep a Rossi 16" Model 92 handy that is loaded with 180 grain Bear loads. I often take it with me when I walk the dog. I also have a Rossi Rio Grande in 45/70, but it is simply too large and unwieldy when compared to the 92.
Even if they say the weight isn’t as big of a deal as most people think (which I find highly unlikely, since EVERY bit of extra weight affects the soldier’s ability to fight)-they’re still carrying less ammunition than whatever the enemy is going to have. And thus run out of bullets MORE QUICKLY. Not to mention, they’re still going to need to fight in close quarters combat against enemies with 30-round magazines.
Isn’t it designed to try to out-range the enemy? If it does, that would compensate. And the ammo amount isn’t all that different from a normal magazine before. It isn’t everything for a gun, either. Not by a long shot.
So? tghe US army really runs out of bullets and if they do they just broke out of a bubble which how I envision this weaponsystem being use is death star tactics put your disvsion here make a FOB and now you denied the enemy a sector... THE US ARMY NEVER HAD IT THIS GOOD!
I heard guys in Ukraine say that In an ideal situation you have 9 to 11 mags. One in the gun 8 on a chestrig and two on the sides (very specific chestrig to be fair).
@@mecampbell30 Yea, good point. The M27 IAR is same weight as the XM7. So I actually believe when soldiers say (even those that didn't go through the military press release) you notice the weight but quickly get used to it. Length wise, the XM7 is in the middle of a fully extended IAR and full retracted stock IAR. And definitely still shorter than the M16, but longer than the M4. The main difference with the M27 IAR is that the IAR is similarly balanced as the M4. XM7 is more front heavy which is why people think it'll be worse in CQB. I heard rumors that Sig will try to address some of these with better cuts to shift the weight around. But those are internet rumors. Either way, it's still in field trials so things might change for the better in this regard. So, I think the concerns about weight and length is a bit overstated. People are just used to the older M4 but both weight and length isn't that unreasonable relative to the M16 and M27 IAR. the comparison with the M14 is poor because the M14 is even HEAVIER and LONGER than the XM7. M14 also was far harder to control when fully auto. Everyone who fired it I've seen say the XM7 is very controllable despite the extra power. Lastly, and where I do personally have concerns for is the reduced ammo count from 30 per mag to 20. There's also 25 round magazine available which I think might mitigate some of the issues, but of course that means extra weight. I never seen a infantrymen say they ever have enough ammo. That said, there's a bit too much doom posting on the whole M7 rifle. There was a lot of doom posting on the M250 too saying how "it's better than the M249 but M249 was just bad, th XM250 isn't a good gun either." but once people got to shoot it, tat all went away. Same with the Vortex NGSW optic. People talked about the weight of the optic (despite its replacing MULTIPLE systems not just the previous optic) but once people got to try it out, everyone is saying how they love it.
soldier A: "didn't notice the double weight" soldier B: "when you picked it up you immediately noticed the extra weight of it" also, soldiers never speak badly of the military when press is around........
Everyone also have differing opinions. They aren't a hivemind. But yes, military press is always going to be praise. Only time will tell if it's the right decision. I'm personally cautiously optimistic but I understand the concerns.
I imagine in terms of having it around all day, the increase in weight wasn't considered a deal-breaker. But when actually having to handle it in CQB, the weight did make it sluggish. I'd always heard the opposite, that the rifles ideally would weigh nothing for carrying around all day, cuz a long patrol with a 10lb gun sucks; but in combat a little extra weight was suddenly worthwhile if it gave you a firepower benefit. It would be one thing if it was only slightly heavier than an M-16 and still had a 26-30 round mag. But it's basically just like saying "do you want to ditch the M4 and issue the AR-10?"
@@scottwatrous I'm a combat vet, weight matters. Try carrying a combat load for 10+hrs every day, and then having to fight an ambush when you are exhausted. Adrenaline helps, but all grunts end up with physical injuries for life. Never has a grunt asked for More weight. No amount of weight lifting will protect you from injuries due to carrying excessive weight. Doubling the weight of a rifle is Huge. And we did change our weapons overseas to reduce weight. Many guys stopped running all sorts of issued accessories as they deemed the weight not worth it. The XM7 is like carrying a SAW or 2x M4 rifles at once. And for added capabilities most guys don't need, or lack the skill to use. Most guys can't hit 300m with an M4. And most engagements occurred inside 200m where the M4 has Significant advantage over the XM7 (speed, weight, maneuverability, rate of fire, controllability, mag capacity, total ammo capacity....). And the US remains one of the only countries on earth that uses body armor. No enemy we've faced issues body armor. And body armor doesn't cover the vast majority of teh body such as the pelvis, gut, and head.
@@neurofiedyamato8763 I can already tell you from years of combat experience, including being interviewed by the press, that this is a mistake. I'm also a mechanical engineer and military historian. tons of issues with the XM7 becoming the standard issue rifle. I would chose an M4 or M16 over the XM7 any day. I'd even pick an M110 over the XM7 in a heartbeat. Been there, done that, and used a variety of weapons. The only thing the XM7 has that I'd be interested in is the optic, which is not a part of the XM7, and can be mounted on literally any rifle.
Regarding shooting through concrete. In Europe, there are clay? bricks, porous concrete and solid reinforced concrete - all circa 20 to 30 cm (little under 8 to little under 12 inches) deep. I doubt the bullet goes through solid concrete. But I could be mistaken.
The Chinese are equipping their soldiers with body armor equal to American soldier's body armor. Hell, American body armor is probably made in China. Yeah right, its all about the concrete.
Yeah, cinder blocks are much weaker than the brick and reinforced concrete that European homes are constructed. Cinder block buildings are more what you encounter in 3rd world towns and sub-urbs.
They don't. You can see footage from the balkan wars where DShK rounds are failing to go through commie block apartment building walls. That's a .50 (12.7 actually, similar ballistics) failing to penetrate. A puny 6.8 will do absolutely nothing. This is a scam. 15 bucks a round? It's obvious why they are pushing it as hard as they do....
In all shooting tests in the U.S. (both military and TH-cam) we like to shoot basic, unfilled concrete bricks and exclaim how much penetrating power they have. It looks good on camera.
jup buildings build after 1960 are mostly made out of somethign with a hollow core or very porous material, cement is like 2,4g/cm³ (is used mostly only for cellars and ceilings) where building walls are between 0,3 and 1,2g/cm³. the newer the building the less it is.
Army dude here. Ammo and weapon are too heavy. We carry less ammo now, I would have to carry 4 more mags to have the same amount of rounds as I did before. Supressor is the best choice they could have made. The rifle itself is a great platform, amazing to shoot, low recoil, and for points this weapon is sexy. The SAW is just fine, no complaints, a really good system. We got two great weapons. Chamber these in 5.56 and make them lighter and id have no complaints. I hope im proven wrong though.
I think the key to understanding the intent with the XM7/XM250 is to get out of the COD/Battlefield/Airsoft/CQB-assault-course mentality, and instead look at it within a more classical infantry warfare framework: In that framework, the job of infantry units encountering other infantry units isn't actually to gun them down, it's to suppress/pin them (if they have effective cover) or push them back (if they don't have cover or if the cover can be penetrated at that range), with any casualties just being bonus. Opposing infantry units are supposed to be neutralized by artillery and/or air (and/or drone, now?) strikes once they've been pinned and their location called in. At that point, the deciding factor in infantry-on-infantry engagements is each unit's effective range, which is an emergent property of both the unit's accuracy and the range at which a hit will still be potentially lethal (which can be affected by the target's armoring), leavened by volume of fire. From what I've read/heard, M4s seem to have an accurate range around 400 yards, and the current Army standard 5.56 can penetrate plate body armor but only at significantly shorter ranges than that. From requirements docs, it sounds like the target that Army strategists are going for with NGSW is an effective range of 600 yards through a combination of accuracy (hence the scope) and power (hence the round), including against body armor equipped targets. Theoretically, if your peer infantry opponent was equipped with something more along the lines of 5.56 (like, say, 5.8x42) with the corresponding 400 yard effective range (not even factoring in body armor), and the NGSW weapons really can hit an effective range of 600+, that could mean that Army infantry units could keep peer infantry pinned/suppressed at 200 yards past their own effective range, meaning your troops probably wouldn't even have to worry about stray shots hitting unarmored spots. I would presume that within this framework, room-to-room house breaching is what you have SOCOM guys with their custom ordered .300blk PDWs for, and clearing bunkers is what you have grenades and AT4s for (notably, there's a new XM919 shoulder launched munition being introduced with what they're calling "behind the wall" effects), or else an M10 Booker rolls in and makes it go away.
Eh. Thats all well and good until the enemy enters an apartment building that your ROE won’t let you destroy, so you have to clear it room by room, block by block. With a longer, heavier weapon indoors.
Yeah there’s valid points on all sides of the argument. In theory there wouldn’t be close quarters room clearing in the next war. Buildings would be flattened. Bulldozed, and bombed. These aren’t for raids, it’s not for counter insurgency . Like you said , soldiers need to get out of COD mentality to see what they’re going for. Not sure if it’ll work tho
The complaints I have heard so far: - This gun was made for a war that is already over (Afghanistan) where engagement ranges were beyond that of the M4 - This is an unwieldly gun for urban combat and CQB - This gun is heavy, enjoy carrying on 20 mile ruck marches. - 40% less ammo is no bueno - Not using NATO standard rounds means no compatibility with allies - Why not just give everyone a SCAR-H I am no longer in the Service so I am curious to see how the platform ultimately performs in the field
This is more about Sig becoming the Boeing of the firearms world. They are deep in that government pocket now and need to justify more purchases/money/investment.
Based on historical precedent (Rhodesia and vietnam), it'll perform well in the jungle. Its basically an expensive FAL that's easier to fire full auto. And 7.62 FAL's are adored in the jungle because they can blast through cover that'll stop weaker rounds. That's why half the military's in south America still use the FAL.
@@firefighter1c57 theres a reason not every soldier is equipped like a marksman, more ammo wins gunfights, always. if you need bigger boom, call in the firesupport.
I wanna remind everyone that, even though we focus on the XM-7, it isn't the point. Remember, this is the NGSW program. The point is to get a rife that is "Good enough" that has compatible ammo with the most casualty-producing weapon of the squad, which is the machine gun. The point of the shift is to give the _machine gunner_ and element more capability, not the individual rifleman. So, don't ask if the XM--7 is better than a 5.56 AR; ask if the new XM-250 makes the fireteam, squad, and platoon more effective in a LSCO situation. The point is that you want something like 7.62NATO coming from your MG but something like 5.56 coming from your riflemen. But, you also need the two to use the same ammo for logistics purposes. When you look at it through this lens, it makes much more sense that this choice was made.
@@Isometrix116 still less effective due to weight constraints of what can be carried by light infantry. 1- 6.8x51 > 1- 5.56x45 210- 5.56x45 > 140- 6.8x51 And for the squad automatic rifleman: 500- 5.56x45 > 333- 6.8x51
@@usmcvet0313 You're still thinking with the COIN mindset though. (For clarity, COIN = counter insurgency, LSCO = large scale combat operations. Right now, that is a fancy way of saying "China," but things tend to change over time, so that probably won't be the case forever). If you are in LSCO, you aren't going to be using 500 rounds in your SAW while out on patrol. You're going to be in a trench or foxhole with a runner bringing ammo to you as you need it. If you are assaulting an enemy position, you will probably bring minimal kit. In Ukraine, they seem to prefer to run 3 mags on a plate carrier for things like storming trenches. They openly say that 6 mags is far in excess of what they need and will just slow the down. The fighting tends to be quick and intense. Add in the mechanized elements that can and will be carrying extra ammo and you really struggle to see that difference in ammo count mattering. What actually ends up mattering is logistical footprint. And, if things go as planned, .277 fury should be replacing 7.62x51 and 5.56. This means, in theory, less logistical footprint, meaning you end up with more ammo, not less since what matters becomes production and transport efficiency rather than how much a guy can carry. Even if that doesn't end up mattering, what will matter is being able to penetrate barriers and armor with your SAW at distance. The M249 can't do this. Remember, in LSCO, we have to plan for every enemy soldier having level 4 plates. On the civillian side, I've seen plates rated for 6 M855a1 hits. What do you think will exist and be commonly used on the military side in 2030? Oh, also, remember, the enemy in LSCO knows how to fight, so they'll be using cover effectively. Hence, barrier penetration. So, does carrying more ammo matter if it take 8-10 hits to take someone out? Does it matter if you are in a defensive position and don't have to carry that ammo? Does it matter if you are fighting quick and intense localized thrusts into trenchlines and defensive positions that will see you expend fewer than 100 rounds? And, overall, are you more effective with a more effective way of producing casualties with small arms fire? I'd say so. 5.56 is great, don't get me wrong, but it's not optimized for the world of LSCO and level 4 plates that we are looking toward.
@@Isometrix116 absolutely not thinking COIN. This rifle would make more sense in a COIN fight, because nearly all patrols are mounted. Resupply is a non issue because you dominate the air. In conventional war with a peer level adversary, they have the ability to deny you the use of land and air vehicle assets. Thus being able to carry more rounds becomes vastly more important, because resupply becomes much more difficult. A fight with China in the Pacific will look much different than Ukraine trench warfare, just as the two theaters were vastly different in WWII. 6.8x51 doesn’t have the ability to penetrate level 4 plates outside of 100m, and more likely 50m with available velocity data.
@usmcvet0313 Resupply seemed to be an issue in several COIN actions. Usually, it was because air was the only local available resupply. But, conceptually, the major difference is the fighting distance from a resupply. If you are in a trench, the resupply is pretty rapid and easy. If you are 2,000 miles from the nearest allied base, you'll have some problems. Note that not all combats took place in this way, it's just an example. But, with COIN, you were generally operating farther from supply bases. Sure, air support and air supply were viable, but they are also higher-level assets, held way above the squad level. When that's the case, you're going to be asked to hold out for much longer before support arrives. Hence, the need for more ammo on a given person. But what about disrupting land supply lines? Yeah, that's going to be a big issue. But that's why this has to happen, logistics is significantly simplified by one ammo type. A pacific war will look different: Yeah, it probably will. But we will probably still see trenchlines and fighting from a position that can store ammo rather than being forced to carry it all. Oh! Armor penetration! I love this topic! I'm a materials physicist, so it's something I'm familiar with. Anyway, yes, "velocity defeats armor" is a very good general rule. But it isn't the whole story. You get significantly more momentum from increasing mass, wherein momentum is mass × velocity rather than mass × velocity × velocity that you see with energy. That is very important when considering how the velocity of the bullet changes when penetrating armor. A heavier bullet is much more able to continue traveling at a high velocity through resistance than a lighter bullet. Now, there are a lot of other factors, such as angle, materials, oscillation frequency of the bullet/where it is in that oscillation, and so on. But, all else being equal, .277 fury will penetrate armor and can be improved as needed whereas 5.56 can't reach the performance characteristics necessary. This is a really big deal, even if it's just within 100m. Being able to penetrate your enemy's armor is a big deal. Fundamentally, it's the same question we get with tanks and piercing tank armor. Yes, carrying more, smaller shells is great. But it means nothing if you can't damage your enemy. If you need 10 direct hits to kill your enemy and they need 1 to kill you, it's gonna be a bad day for you. That's what we really have to think about. So, the question becomes, if you can just sit in a fighting position and resupply at your leisure, does it matter if you can carry fewer rounds? If you can't penetrate your enemy's armor, does it matter how much ammo you have? And if you are able to kill your enemy easily, will you be more able to take a position or defend your position? How can you make it easier for a squad or platoon to produce casualties? And will those factors be important going forward? Also, yeah, this is an essay, sorry about that. I love this topic and love thinking about it. I think it's pretty clear that this is a necessary change considering that 5.56 can't achieve the performance needed for LSCO and the importance of the machine gun in infantry tactics though.
@@Isometrix116 you can’t plan on being able to “sit in a fighting position, and resupply at your leisure”. That is not how wars have ever been won. They are won by maneuver warfare. Even in the largest trench fight in modern history, WWI, victory was achieved when one side was able to break through and maneuver on the enemy. There is a delicate balance between weight and capability when it comes to infantry weapon systems. Weight is much more of a factor for the reasons I previously stated. People are physically limited by what they can carry. By the logic you are going off of, we should just issue every one .50 BMG rifles. They can just hang out, and get resupplied at their leisure. .50 BMG will do a much better job defeating level 4 plates than 6.8x51. Of course that is silly. Resupply is much more difficult when you have a peer level enemy. WWII & Korea, logistics were the biggest challenges. There is a reason why after those wars, we started looking for lighter ammunition/weapons for infantry. Level 4 plates are designed to stop .30-06 AP rounds with hardened penetrators traveling at 2900 ft/s. The 6.8x51 drops below that threshold within 56m. Let’s say they have some new super penetrator, which doubles the range that it will penetrate level 4 plates. That is still not worth the costs in weight and ammunition loadout. Within those ranges, even if you have an enemy with body armor, the traditional failure to stop drill procedure is easily doable.
Lug a 20lb Roman shield around in your left hand while wearing 40 lb of body armor or carry a 13lb pike around. It's just a tad heavier than the decked out M1 weighing 11lb.
Mission is fucked if you have rug for 3 days. Still less ammunition and more expensive ammunition could be cause for concern. Despite longer Engagement ranges
Those criticisms are why I personally felt they should have gone with 6mm ARC. It provides near .308 performance out of a standard M4 size rifle, minimal loss of overall round count, and minimal increase in ammo weight. Aside from the machine gun variant I suspect the M7 will be a dud similar to the M14. We will see though.
yeah, M7 gives harder punch and further range but cost in larger recoil, weight and ammo capacity, and not saying common soldiers doesn't need to shoot further than 400m which makes it is unecessary, but M250 was a good choice to replace m249, as it has harder punch and further range, but only cost in minimal ammo capacity, it has lighter weight, and recoil is not that matter cuz machine gun always has help from bipod and M250 has specific recoil reducing mechanic
@@pandatanoao9384 thing is, the M7 comes down to the 250. It's really only there to compliment the 250. Most of a squad's firepower comes from the LMG. And for logistics purposes, the riflemen need to use the same round. Don't get why people can't figure this out
LOL, the 6MM ARC is nowhere close to the 308 in combat performance and even further away from the new 6.8. I'm no M7 or 6.8 fan but suggesting the 6MM ARC is a viable option is just silly. The 6MM needs a nice long barrel to reach it's advertised performance numbers, run it through a 16" barrel like the military uses and it's small margin over the old 5.56 starts to diminish. It's a neat cartridge for poking holes in paper at long range and maybe taking small game at short range but that's about it.
Interesting point on not being able to get on target as quickly as with the M4. Usually with weight concerns my first and only though would be weighing the soldiers down and increasing fatigue, not actual combat efficiency
Sure, but those come hand-in-hand. On a long deployment, or a lengthy firefight...stuff gets progressively heavier. I don't mind admitting that even an 8 lb. (fully loaded/equipped) gun wears me out over an all-day shooting course. By the end of the day, it feels like it's 14 lbs, lol.
@@charleslennonbakergood training costs time and training facilities. And continuous effort. You can’t make every military air defense software specialist into an infantry monster. And if you spent the money you save with the old caliber for more training… results with the old caliber might already be better.
@@HuskyOwner-bl1jfsure but you also need that anti IR coat with you soon, probably a drone remote control, that new EW gun, a tablet for your digital map to swiftly call in precise artillery fire, that new IR scope weighs a little more, and and and… Every gram more needs to be worth it.
I think everyone's got it backwards. The real game changer is the XM250 LMG which is a quantum leap over the SAW and M240, however due to the new round in the LMG, Army wanted a rifle to pair with it for ammo compatibility to get the economy of scale in place to bring down ammo costs in the long run. The Army never really cared about the practicality of the XM7 as their sights were set on the XM250 but as long as they want the 250, the M7 is staying.
I'm not ex-military or particularly knowledgeable about this stuff, but it seems to me that a huge determining factor on whether the rifle will be a success or failure depends on the kind of future combat that takes place. If future combat takes place across longer ranges, with enemies in body armor, maybe the extra weight of the rifle no longer matters. You won't really know this until the next conflict actually happens.
"at longer ranges, with enemies in body armor" sure, but at a certain point snipers & artillery become the dominant threats every infantryman with this rifle only makes sense against light arms engaging across large open distances with no support (afghanistan)
This is the only true answer right now. The next real war will show us whether this was a miraculously prescient decision that saves thousands of lives, or a massive and bloody boondoggle that gets thousands killed. Whether this rifle is effective will be determined by the enemy, not us. Who that enemy is, what equipment they're using, and where the conflict is taking place are the factors that will decide whether this is an amazing weapon or a deathtrap. And the US has very little say in those factors. As the saying goes, "the enemy gets a vote".
New CQB tactics will instruct the team, not to enter the room, but to go line abreast in the hall outside it. They will then shoot through the wall until it doesn’t exist. Then they will enter the room and inspect it. Rinse and repeat. Could get tricky for load bearing walls so one civil engineer will be attached to each team.
Hotshot Lasguns, capable of taking out the fabled Power Armored Space Marine, requires a power pack in the back and is mostly reserved for more elite and specialized units. The humble and regular flashlight is of course less powerful but doesn’t require a large backpack to power the thing. That and regular guardsman most prominent opponents lore wise are equivalent to them despite the popularity and constant glazing of the Space Marines by GW and the rest of the Warhammer 40K community.
@edwademberpants2552 No, canonically the most common enemy by far for the Imperial Guard are rebels and cultists. These usually use stubbers and mesh armor. Flak armor is immune to stubbers short of a heavy or hand cannon and mesh armor is useless against a lasgun. The vast majority of aliens are likewise much less advanced than the Guard. Meaning the average Guardsman is a nearly unstoppable juggernaut to the vast majority of his enemies.
As a former 11B . . . bigger, hotter round, heavier weapon, less ammo, more expensive. Sounds like a winner to me. Actually the new sight seems to be the real improvement.
What were the generals supposed to do when they got a report that the Russians possibly are working on body armor that could defeat 7.62 NATO AP? It's not like the Russians ever exaggerated their capabilities! You might think the sensible course of action would be to replace the 7.62 NATO platforms in the squad while retaining the M4, and that Russians dying every day in Ukraine to far weaker rounds are proof that maybe the whole squad doesn't need a marksman rifle on steroids, but that's why those generals get paid far more than you did.
"Just don't get into cqb engagements" Sure thing, Sir. Next time we're ordered to take a building or a trench, we'll just not do that instead. What an incredibly stupid way to address a problem. In modern warfare, adaptability is the most important aspect of any fireteam. I could understand giving specific units the M7 system, but you can't just ask us to never clear a building. Unless they plan to just decimate everything that stands with overwhelming artillery and airstrikes, i guess. And the concern about maintenance is the biggest problem, imo. I still think the HK416, aka the M27 is superior. Easier to maintain and more powerful than the m4, even if it's not by much. They could just up the m27 to 7.62 if they're worried about stopping power. I'm getting Vietnam vibes from these concerns. How well does it operate when dirty? What about mud, rain, and sand? How long does it take to clean? How reliable is tap rap bang with it? I'd rather have a shittier gun that works than a fancy futuristic gun that might not be able to perform.
50 years is the difference between the bi-plane in service and the F-15 in service and this could be a 50 year rifle. With drone and robotic technology ever growing, there could be armored battle bots in that time.
How reliable it is? It is just a piston AR. Mags look worse than P-Mag, seem to have no overinsertion stop, STANAG plague lives on. But otherwise it should be fine, if designed and manufactured correctly
i mean, with the m10 booker rolling out, we’re not really gonna be in cqb anymore. we’re not fighting an insurgency where we need to be door kickers to minimize civilian casualties. this is a near peer war, just send a 105mm towards the building and make a new door. cappy already said in a previous video that the army is moving away from cqb, and with the new programmable airburst rounds on the booker, they’ll just clear a trench for you.
Reminds me of when somebody had a "Designated Marksman" M14 boner when I was in Iraq, and some genius put a gang of them on our books, making us turn in our M4s to pack that ridiculous and fussy hog. At no point did it ever prove helpful during anything from Cordon & Search jobs to longer range Checkpoint operations, which was the rightful domain of our crew serves.
@@rampaginwalrus i thought a fully tricked out m27 is about the same weight as the spear, is it not? anyways, its not insurgency warfare anymore, with m10 bookers rolling off the production line why risk kicking in a door in a near peer war? theres no civilians to watch for collateral damage, just make a new door with a 105mm shell. cappy already was talking about in a previous video that the army is moving away from doorkicking. why up the m27 to 7.62? thats even more weight than just moving to the .277 fury, and you’ve still got the magazine capacity problem, but with an even heavier and inferior system
Good luck getting combat support qualified. It was pulling teeth helping cooks, clerks and supply qualified on the M4. But it looks AWESOME! Wish I was still in. Great vid, love the content.
Sure, but what's funny is everyone likes to cite Ukraine and trench warfare as an example, yet in urban areas, cqb is often left to their special forces.
@@Avera9eWh1teShark6 But Rember only shock troops fight CQB rutialy in an assault troop dioes they've won already. Which in trench warfare range and supresstion is king which the m7 has 3x more then the m4.
I mean the xm 25 was scrapped because explosive bullets are a war crime. And the size and weight of its round are within ‘explosive bullet’ category rather than a propelled grenade.
I mean, the Rangers couldn't get enough of it during actual combat. But then someone checked some rules again and realized "Hold up... We accidentally created a warcrime... How do we get rid of this thing?..."
tbf the xm-25 wasn't scrapped bc infantry hated it. it was scrapped bc the explosive rounds it shot were (barely) small enough to count as exploding bullets, and direct hits with those goes against the geneva convention.
$15.00 a round for now.. If the M7 and the M250 are accepted into production then economies of scale kick in. Also the US wouldn't need to manufacture both 5.56 and 7.62 anymore further simplifying logistics as you would only need 1 big bin of 1 ammo size instead of 2 smaller bins of 2 different sizes.
Brother, have fun with the cosplay thing! It is okay to have fun! Great video by the way, and glad you addressed the [likely] bias of the sources for the video. Great presentation as always, thank you!
Everyone in WW1 wanted to avoid trench warfare too. Conditions on the battle field, technology and your enemy all get a say in how you have to fight. Also the rifle has a frost bite problems that the m4 doesn't in the arctic.
The big factor with WW1 was that communications and transport technology hadn’t reached the point where mobile warfare was possible, as commanders would be completely in the dark once an engagement started because there were no portable radios and telephone lines would get ripped up by artillery fire, while soldiers could and would outrun their logistics and their artillery cover, and artillery had to operate off of preset plans, without knowing if they’re having the right effect. Nowadays, America is banking on being able to rely on airpower to prevent the sort of deadlock that’s going on in Ukraine, as neither side there has truly established air superiority. That could be a bit of a gamble, but that’s what they treat as a winning formula.
@jason200912 it gives soldiers blebs(stage before frostbite) through their insulated gloves, specifically their support hand. The M4, M249 and M240 do not have this problem
@@beibotanov This is why I have MLOK covers on all my rifles and why I have started to prefer plastic grips on my pistols Picking up cold metal SUUUUUUUUUCKS (I'm sure hot metal sucks just as much but I don't experience that as much as cold). The aluminum is great for the accuracy (now my barrel is free floated) but terrible for comfort.
I’m gunna be honest. I think it’s more likely the vehicles they’re thinking about would be Chinese amphibious vehicles, which is what would be used in Taiwan.
The AP capabilities of the 6.8mm will only be a little higher than the 7.62 NATO round. Basically higher sectional density and velocity. All they have to do is add a tiny bit more armor
@@Nathan-jh1ho the ap capabilities are unknown as is the actual bullets material composition. Obviously they could add more armor but there’s only so much you. Can add before your amphibious vehicle is no longer amphibious or slow enough to be a very easy target. Amphibious vehicles have to play by different rules then normal 100% ground based vehicles.
to be honest, people really did not enjoy the last video right off the bat it got a lot of negative feedback. so I deleted it. my main goal with the channel is to produce content that you guys like and find to a positive thing that is valuable to you. all the comments and everything on that video made me realize that was not really the right place for a video like that. I wanted it to bring people together but it was more division instead. someday I'll post things like that on a separate channel so as to keep this mostly not about politics , sorry for the rant
@@Taskandpurpose it's understandable and even though I'm not a big fan of trump it's still necessary to have a civilize debate of both parties but please keep up the great work as regardless. 👍
@JohnRambo-zz6gy I understand what you're saying but its not about caving to the mob in this instance. For example, it would be pretty selfish of me to post a bunch of videos that no one else found interesting, or if I suddenly started posting videos of me cooking pancakes or me doing make up tutorials. a video of trumps foreign policy was too off topic for this channel. I'll cover those things on a separate channel in the future though because I do want to talk about those topics in the future
I said from the beginning that this is a great rifle and good direction to go. Many were against it, but I think with time they’ll come around esp after seeing it’s performance.
One of the big think tank imagined issues that this new round spawned from is that there isn't enough US accessible tungsten to make enough to deal with an army worth of cheap steel body armo.
7.62 doesn't do well in 13 inch barrels. Military prefers carbine length rifles. So, unless you go bullpup, you will need very high chamber pressure and fast burning power to get that kind of performance just like the 6.8 already does.
Honestly, i think people are slightly "off" you talk about penetrating light armored vehicles and such. but consider... at ranges beyond 100 yards a 5.56 may not always go through a car door... at 200 yards the weapons lost almost half its energy... at 300 yards its at about 550 lbs of force. These spicy rounds... larger, heavier... will rip up tacticals at much longer ranges. Many of the forces fighting now are using pickup trucks with heavy machine-guns, 23mm cannons and such mounted on them, able to engage well outside of the range of normal 5.56... these rounds will let troops disable or kill these vehicles or their crews at ranges where they believe they would have the advantage.
Correct, but thinking it will go through 10mm of steel at an angle of lets say, 30 degrees, already makes it effectively 20mm, at any angle above 30 degrees you will need much much larger rounds.
@@singular9 yep, but again, i'm not talking about going through and armored vehicle at 400 yards, i'm talking about doing enough damage to effectively stop a pickup truck at 400 yards :) Which is what the infantry actually, really does need.
You can already kill the crew in a pickup if you aim for the crew/windows, instead of through the doors. (so putting the optic on M4s would already suffice) Sure, the new gun would surprise those crew - at first. But how many days does it take for the enemy to wisen up, and adjust their behavior? Looking at WW2, Korea, Vietnam, and Afghanistan - we _always_ see the enemy adapt _unpleasantly quickly._ The only times they didn't, was when the tech gap was _such_ a wide _chasm,_ that it didn't matter what they tried to change (Gulf War, but sadly not even Afghanistan). And a fast war definitely helps too, but as Russia and Ukraine show (and even Afghanistan fwiw), no halfway-near-peer is gonna crumble _that_ fast. So China certainly won't. I think one mistake that's being made by a lot of people is focusing on what this one weapon could do, while any military is really a system-of-systems. It's not about whether your rifle can stop a tactical, but whether your combined arms toolkit can. And everything is a balance of compromises... I fear that the Chinese might be smart enough to realize that, if American rifles can pierce body armor, they should just never wear it. That would make their troops faster and less fatigued (or carrying more ammo instead). And the Chinese military could stop wasting money on body armor and get more drones instead. This would turn the US advantage into a disadvantage, especially on a macro scale. You'd just be spending more money to make your opponent spend less money... 😢
I retired in 2018 and missed the transition. I think the power the new rifle offers is great. However, consider combat load 140 rounds to 220 rounds. If your supply lines are cut or completely destroyed, you only have what is on you.
Too many reviewers keep comparing 6.8x51 to 5.56x45. Of course it does better, its a much larger cartridge! 6.8 needs to be predominately compared to 7.62x51. This would be a more honest comparison to range, recoil, pentration, and most importantly ammo capacity
Well I'll give it to you straight. The 6.8 is better in just about every way. Higher chamber pressure by about 20,000psi. Better bullet design, and it is slightly more compact.
There’s a reason, and that’s because the round is replacing the 5.56x45 not the 7.62x51. Comparing the 6.8 to the 7.62 isn’t really meaningful for the army other than giving a relatively good idea of how the round performs from an objective view. However the round is being compared to the 5.56 because that’s the round it’s replacing meaning soldiers will be carrying this over the 5.56 so having a direct comparison on how much more lethal the soldier will be with the 6.8 over the 5.56 is much more relative to the army and their decision to adopt the round
And this is the amusing part. The hilarity of "it's more powerful..."...so was the .308 and we still ditched it. We're reintroducing the same issues we had previously.
The problem is 7.62 isn’t the current caliber being used by the majority of the us military and so its comparison is less meaningful in terms of decision making and drawback comparison.
I think it’s valid because that’s the ammo it should replace. But “shots per gram” is underestimated. 20 shots in a magazine or 30 shots can mage a huge difference, especially. For soldiers that aren’t infantry gods.
Really can't stress enough the importance of the "system." We tend to fixate on the rifles when it's really going to be the SAW that does most of the work. And that XM250 is a mean fuckin' SAW.
it's the weak point of the System actually. Only they didn't realise it yet. Because the US amy can't get over the fact that the belt fed weapon is a CREW SERVED WEAPON. In their concept the MG gunner must carry the gun, ammo and all needed for it to work. So the XM250 doesn't have a quick exchange barrel, because the 400 rounds max the gunner can carry are not enough to require it. And it has not an attachment for the tripod, because none is going to carry a tripod. Unfortunately, while any GPMG can provide accurate fire at over 1km distance from a tripod, no GPMG or SAW can hit anything at 800m without it, because the burst is too disperse. So the XM250 is a way to be outranged always, and outgunned in short time.
I think the standard for US equipment needs to fulfill a certain *_R.R.R._* Requirement: Rugged Robust Reliable Something that can easily handle as many different kinds of situational context as possible, as foolproof as possible, whilst still being both competent for its job and easy enough for its handler to work with for maximum effect, no matter how rough and tumble things get. I’m envisioning something like a Vickers… Something that can operate through sun and storm, day and night, with only the barest minimum of odds and ends needed to keep it going.
I remember back in 1969 in Marine Corps boot camp we were issued M-14 rifles. When we got to ITR (Individual Training Regiment) we were issued M-16s we looked at them as toys hence the nickname Matty Mattel wishing we had our M-14s back but we got used to the lighter weight and select fire lever. Besides we didn't have choice.
There are a 2 problems with this whole idea that yet have not been solved in any way: 1. Armor can already stop this there is even armor that can stop much more powerful rounds. 2. To engage a target at longer distance you need to see them before they come closer.
1. near peers arent adopting that armor, this can penetrate level 4 plates i hear. also, that armor is heavy as fuck that you’re referring to. 2. this has been solved. with improved ISR and better and more available thermals to infantry and mechanized squads
I'm curious if they ever fixed the issue with over inserting the magazine. I remember Brandon Herrera and Grantham having an issue with that a year or so ago.
I predict that if the XM7, if kept at all, it’ll be relegated to a DMR due to it’s weight, size, and recoil. The XM250 has a better chance of sticking, that thing looks fantastic. However I think if either is fully adopted, they’ll likely be chambered in 7.62 rather than 6.8. That new ammo has a laundry list of negatives and only one real positive. It’s INSANELY expensive It isn’t a NATO cartridge so our friends won’t have it and we won’t have near enough of it.
You can also buy 277 Fury (same dimensions as the 6.8 Common Cartridge Military Round) as a recreational cartridge for about $1.30 a round. Using a 55,000 psi bras case, let alone a 62,000 psi military brass case instead of that fancy 80,000 psi 3 piece case your armor piercing capability is going to drop. A LOT. Would a standard brass case 277 Fury still be much MUCH better than 5.56 for armor penetration? Hell yeah! 5.56 NATO M855 was 1800 Joules energy, Retail 277 Fury in standard 55,000 psi brass cartridges is more like 2850 Joules, and M80 7.62 NATO is about 3450 Joules. So even in a retail cartridge the 277 Fury is over 50% more smack than an M855. Upgrading that pressure from a standard retail round by 10% to the same 60,000 ish PSI range that is used in the 7.62 NATO and 5.56 NATO would see the 277 Fury punching out in excess of 3100 Joules. But with better Ballistic Coefficients and better Sectional Density than the 7.62. Even a cheaper standard brass case 277 looks like a good option. That is still gonna be more than enough for current Chinese or Russian body armour, but I 'd have doubts on it penetrating BTR's and the like without that 80,000 PSI case and some fancy teflon and pentatrator designs.
@@AndyViant so you explained THE ONE positive attribute I mentioned in my comment 😂. You went a little too far into the weeds for a TH-cam comment but hey, it was accurate information. Obviously 6.8 / 2.77 is ballistically superior to ANY 5.56 loading. But $1.30-$1.50 a round is still nearly double the price per round of 5.56 and probably 35-40% more than 7.62 NATO. Not to mention you didn’t rebut the point of it not being in NATO inventory. And it will take a hella long time to produce a stockpile that comes close to resembling our 5.56 or 7.62 stockpiles. The logistical issues are by far the biggest. There’s also another element that was briefly touched on in the video and that was close quarter fights. The XM7 is just too big and heavy. And lastly,qualifications are going to drop like rocks. I watched MOST “soldiers” for years that could barely qualify with M4s. You think they’re gonna shoot better with a gun that’s 4-5 lbs heavier with significantly more recoil? This just isn’t a good choice for a standard issue rifle. These were the entire reasons we left the M14 and FAL full sized battle rifles for the intermediate cartridge firing assault rifles like the M16.
@@miletello1 agreed. Something more like the 6.8 SPC or the 6.5 Grendel would be better. Both were specifically designed to be in that intermediate range between 7.62x51 and 5.56x45, outperform the 5.56 by significant margins, and in the 6.5 Grendel even outdo 7.62 in armour penetration at 1000m. Both rounds outperform the 5.56 by over 40% at closer ranges while still being compatible with the overall M4/M16/AR platforms, although obviously barrels and bolt faces need to be changed. Interestingly with all of this, the caliber ranges we're talking about happen to closely match a proposed .276 Enfield as proposed and Trialled by the British ion 1913, and then the post WWII .280 British that was an unsuccessful competitor to the 7.62x51 NATO.
@@AndyViant 😂 funny you mention the .280 round. That is what the FAL was supposed to be chambered for until Uncle Sam bullied everyone into .308. You’re spot on. Also I can’t agree more about 6.8 SPC. I can’t wrap my head around why that round never took off. It’s literally the perfect solution to the listed problems. If we had funded that round when it was introduced, we’d have a hell of a stockpile by now. And then it’d be easier to convince NATO to pick it up. All very good points sir.
@@miletello1 Thanks for the positive feedback. These were my feelings at first but I made sure I cross checked the energy and penetration data. Who knew that those canny Swedes were in the right all along. 6.5x55 or 6.5 Swedish being smack in that zone (actually being a .264 or 6.7mm projectile). Great accuracy, high sectional density, good penetration all come standard from a long projectile middle caliber. And around 3000 J of energy, too, of course. Still going strong despite being introduced in 1894.
Whether you're a hunter, outdoor enthusiast, military professional, or law enforcement officer, Armasight’s Night Vision and Thermal Imaging gear offers durability, reliability, and top performance you can trust. Check out the full line at: armasight.com/
The new digs
It might be good to have some squads mix M4 and M7 so they have the right tool for the job. The guys doing CQB get M4s and Marksmen get the M7.
Haha, I like their 3,5x Vulcan NVG scope in Tarkov. I made a montage of kills using it and other odd scopes in a video on my channel, its almost the last one called "SCOPES".
Also, a funny coincidence today I finished my 14 kills SAG AK + Thermal challenge and the last kill finishing this challenge was against a guy that looted (I think from Cultists on Shoreline) the gun from your video - 6,8mm SIg Sauer....... I posted a video from this challenge like 2 hours ago. This SAG 5.45 AK is a civlian semi-auto AK, I found they dont make AKs but just a chasis kit that is a M.LOK handguard + railed receiver combined together haha, in game it very low recoil and a great ergo, with silencer and thermal it still had 64
So when ur video popped up 40 mins ago I just finished my Peacekeeper 3 tasks to get the FMJ ammo, I'm going to use that Sig Sauer with Thermal now as kind of a Marksmanship rifle, mostly using semi-auto and I'm going to get one 25-round magazine
❤
M855 was 51k+ PSI. M855A1 is over 61k PSI. The SP version of the 6.8x51 is an Uber-magnum. Which begs the question: what kind of lining are they using on the barrel?
The army finally realized its cheaper in the long run to give every rifleman a suppressor than a 10-20% service connection for hearing loss.
It also helps them with lowering their sound profile, hiding their position a bit better.
Unfortunately the US military machine has mostly been short sighted when it comes to new hardware that doesn’t always get to there troops until it’s too late.
I hope that the regulars are outfitted with the new gear sooner than later, especially not having to wait until the early 2030’s.
Just my two cents.
@@matasa7463😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅
@@matasa7463really? How much of a difference does it make
@@matasa7463like give me the difference in dB
People are frustrating...
-Complaining that the M16 was heavy is nuts.
- Hey not only is this rifle too heavy it's too long.
- Ok it's lighter & we took 6-8 inches off the barrel....
- Hey this thing isn't dropping targets at distance!
- Ok here's a Ox of a rifle with a bigger bullet.
- This thing is heavy and it doesn't hold as much ammo!
Here's to going in circles....again.
It depends on the use case.
And in most Cassie’s more shots is better than bigger shots (because bigger shots usually come from something that is rolling or flying anyway).
According to me, a loaded M4A1 is lighter than a loaded MP5, before optics (etc.) anyway
Almost like the people who actually use the rifle and the ones who decide what gets used aren't the same people...
Basically. They just want back to the M1 Garand / M-14 battle rifle approach.They could have at least have done it in a way that takes into account new wisdom, not just repeat the old regular rifle big bullet model. They could have used a newer style of bullet, such as 6.5CM, that outperforms the 308 in range and power while having substantially less recoil, closer to 5.56, and maybe put that in a bullpup, so you have something relatively compact for CQC but that still has a 16" barrell and can develop large velocities and range.
@@zelenisokHave you seen the rifle that general dynamics made for this project, the RM277? Garand thumb has a video on it and its pretty similar to what you're describing
My neighbor worked for several years on this project! I'm proud to say that my very own 10Lbs. Sledgehammer was borrowed to destroy failed prototypes
Yoooooooooo das cool AF
@Micah-y3n he was the one that inspired me to get into engineering lmao. We live near a lake and one time he was on the beach, just staring at the sky at night. I stopped by to ask what was up, and he told me he was using the NoDs he was issued in Mosul to stargaze. Absolute baller
@@CreepyFungus29 bro this is a sick story 😂
A standard ship hull thickness is 1/5 inch, or for the rest of the world 12.7mm of steel.
@@everettputerbaugh3996nope, 12.7 mm is 1/2”. Not 1/5
"The extra weight's not a big deal, you stop noticing it after a few days"
Their testing program is amazing: they somehow got testimony from the Army without actually talking to any soldiers.
Ounces make pounds and pounds make pain.
The added pounds added ammo weight ( it's reduced ammo load out) will hamper the infantrymens mobility and ammo capacity.
I feel this new XM7's use will be best suited to a designated squad or platoon marksman role.
The new XM250 machine gun might just be a winner for the platoons weapons squad. More capability and lighter weight.
As an ex Army infantry officer ( grunt, not a pog/ RIMF) you already have to carry a very heavy load and you can never carry enough ammo in a fire fight. That leaves one to consider the true value of said new system in the real world environment.
Ya these are the most mainstream media type of interviews and quotes about this thing. Every soldier you see on a guntubers videos or wtvr….they aren’t huge fans
We got ours and were told that we were going to fill out a survey with feedback back on the xm7. Guess who never got the survey?! The soldiers lol they dont care what we think they basically said heres the new rifle. Start shooting and rucking. I will say the weight difference takes its toll when its carried with a full ruck and combat load.
Nothing is heavy when someone does not have to carry it. Love to see who got paid under the table for this.
@@jonasgilliam-hh5py Why care, they signed the dotted line so the grunt is property till they ship home. Only good thing about this rifle is it will probably not get used for decades to come.
He's right, the weight isn't all that noticeable.... _until you ruck it on a 10-mile hike up a mountain._
Hell, until you carry it for more than 30 minutes at any time.
Hence why the M1 carbine was more effective and used in WWII than the garand.
Oh, no, troops were actively told not to use the thing because it was not great(tm) at penetration and stopping power.
@@oskar6661 I carried a FAL, and marines already carry a 13lbs rifle. They'll be fine.
@@fraleo2192 One dif/concern is that your FAL was a "clean" weight. Modern weapons are frequently quoted for weight as if scopes, lights, lasers, or other furniture are not going to be attached. There are some comments here that 14lbs will be the LOW end for the Spear.
@@MM22966 Sure, thats true, but my point about the marines already carrying a 13-odd lbs rifle stands true
I'm glad that you addressed the Army Times constantly lying and picking and choosing which soldier feedback they publish.
Exactly. Corruption
@kennylamorena6339 I would say propaganda not corruption. I mean it's not like the ARMY Times is an independent journalist 😅
Yep, standard operating procedure for military, politicians, feds and police.
@@svenrio8521 It's hard to disagree with that, but you should also consider the effect of lobbyists lining pockets one way or another. That heads it towards the corruption side. Either way it's got to get fixed.
Agreed. It's unfortunate that some commenters here and on Reddit didn't watch the whole episode where if they had the host later mentions that 1. the host is only quoting the "Army Times" and 2. kinda mentions some of the "downsides" of the rifle and that the "Army Times" might not be an unbiased source of information.
Same goes for the "Stars and Stripes" publication.
As a soldier in the 101st on the ground with these weapons I can say the attitude towards the xm7 is NOT a positive one . Most people agree that it should be in an SDMR position . The 250 however is a welcome change , love it
The xm250 is essentially a spiritual successor to the m60.
I figured as much, I love how enlisted input is frankly overlooked if not outright ignored
It's always suspect when the opinion comes from command. You can almost bet the the E-4 has a diametrically opposed opinion.
I appreciate the comment, I had a feeling any opinion that wasn't "This is awesome! Spend more money on this!" wasn't being reported.
It’s almost like the weight isn’t a concern to people who don’t have to actually carry it ….. I can tell you I’ve never hear anyone say the increase in weight is “negligible”
No soldier would ever make negative statements about that rifle after a demo. That could put an end to their career. I’m a vet.
So you mean the military are cares about corpos money more than suitable weapon even it worse? Damn
@@AbdulMajid-fl1rc it is more about the reputations of the senior officers that supported this new rifle system.
@@tgeno3351 i see like celeb status infront of everyone.
“Thank you sir, I’m very happy you’ve taken away my high tec rifle took years to develop & gets the job done & replaced it with this 50lb bag of rocks AND a sling to try & hit something with, couldn’t be happier”
Every soldier with a brain ever when asked their “opinion”
@@patrickancona1193 I didn’t say there problems with the weapons system, just that when soldiers making very public comments, they may be afraid to speak the truth. If the Army really wants to know how the troops feel about the new rifle, they should conduct an anonymous survey.
"A bigger bullet means a bigger hole, in a bigger hole means less bad guy, that's just simple arithmetic" The Fat Electrician
Bigger bullets don't always make bigger holes though. They may not even make a hole because they lack penetration.
True. But a bigger bullet means less shots and even a .22 in the eye has more a stopping power than a bigger round in the arm.
@@xephael3485 This new bullet does make way bigger holes, though.
Also means bad has bigger bullet to shoot at us when they fall into wrong hands 😅
@@crusaderman4043 Yes, but at unacceptable costs: monetary cost, weight of gun, size & weight of ammo, recoil. The army could just equip all soldiers with 7.62 NATO rifles & ammo with the new optics at a much lower price.
1950: Here is a dollar, give me a box of ammo
2020: Here is a dollar, give me a bullet
2024: Here is a bullet, give me a box of dollars
They're probably gonna get cheaper as production scales
@@HF7-AD cheaper? Lol sig will milk maximum profit off this.
@@HF7-AD Are you German or how come you can't just let a joke be a joke?
@@towakin7718 lmao what does this even have to do with germans?
@@milkmanlando4423 Sig's a German company?
I can tell you what they're going to think in a few weeks: "Dam this thing is heavy". Rifles are CARRIED 99% of the time.
100%. Carried, dropped, tugged in/out of vehicles, carried to the sh_tter when in a FOB, etc.
The Roman shield weighs 20 lb and is carried on the left hand while the Romans wore 40 lb of body armor. A long pike weighs about 13 lb and is held near the end making it forward heavy. A decked out M1 rifle weighs 11lb. Time to hit the gym.
@orlock20 in other words, get good
@@orlock20True, but put a modern military against the Romans and they'd wipe the floor with em. You have a point that it's not so heavy it can't be carried, but there are other factors to consider, like how fatigued a troop is after a long day of marching with the weapon. You also have to be much more precise with a gun, if your shield is slanted at 3°, that's nothing, but if your gun is 3° off target, you are inaccurate. Basically, it'd be easier to operate a 20lb shield with no support than to aim a 20lb rifle with no support.
to quote an ex-delta operator "no one gets into a gun fight thinking, damn, i wish i had a smaller gun"
"The 6,8 mm round would be better for plunking thru those walls" ~ meaning walls made of cinder blocks.
Building construction in Europe (I live in The Netherlands) is different but we don't use cinder blocks, we use reinforced concrete.
And that's a whole different ball game.
The walls of my apartment are made of 18 cm (7+ inch) reinforced concrete and there is no way the 6,8 mm would punch thru that, not even a penetrator.
Well we currently have no plans to invade Western Europe 😂
Ah yes the Dutch, our true greatest enemies.
@@willevensen7130 There are two things in the world I can't stand. people who are intolerant of other people's cultures... and the Dutch.
Austria the Same.
My Outside walls of the Apartment Complex I live in are probably 30cm thick. With even the inner Walls being made of Rebar Reinforced Concrete.
You need a Tank Shell or an RPG to blast these Walls.
Don't know what US People think what we build our Houses from but Cinder Blocks are used for Sheds here
Not invading netherlands, but fighting in Ukraine or against Russian-affiliated troops in europe is absolutely possible, the m4 has been in service for years, who’s to say how long the xm7 will stay and where it will be used in the future.
The XM7 is the modern version of the M14. We want a bigger bullet. But will ultimately find it too bulky for most use cases. So it goes into a support role.
The m14 used the same round as its predecessor. They didnt want adopt a smaller bullet
Troops preferred the m14 to m16. Troops always have the stupidest possible opinion on a rifle.
But who really wants a bigger bullet?
Usually soldiers want MORE bullets.
And 5.56 is pretty good for conscripts and other less “infantry whooa!” Types of soldiers. They are easy to handle and hit something with even with less training.
Sure, soldiers doing lots of shooting can do well with a bigger caliber but generally not the bulk of the army.
The M14 was actually a fantastic rifle. Just not suited to Vietnam
@@thelordofcringethat is not the norm, many reported M16 being better in the jungle than the M14
As a SAW gunner in Afghanistan, I would have loved to have had the XM250. This definitely seems more like a DMR than a gun to give to everyone. Losing basically three mags of ammo and lowered CQB seems like a losing proposition. Maybe the increased accuracy and efficiency of the optic makes up for it, but in my experience sending a high volume of lead down range denies the enemy the ability to maneuver or fire effectively is what wins firefights.
doesnt using the same ammo mean more amo for the maschine gun thus more fire power?
@@giftzwerg7345could you elaborate on that? If the ammo is heavier I’d assume machine gunners would have less total firepower
I guess the question is do you need to keep someone pinned down if you’re shredding the wall they’re hiding behind lol
@maybeiamepic2263 actually the ammo for the machine gun is lighter, due to it being a smaller calibre, it's only heavier for the rifle.
@giftzwerg7345 unfortunately it doesn't work like, you would still only be able to use the same rates of fire.
The advantage is in logistics as 2 nature's of ammunition are effectively replaced with one, however the machine gun being belt fed kind of still means that it is two. The likely scenario in a war is that the machine guns link would be broken down to provide enough ammunition for the rifles during ammunition shortages, due to the rifle being better for ammunition preservation.
The positives:
+Higher penetration
The negatives:
-Heavier
-Fewer rounds in the mag and carried
-Harder to maintain
-No allied soldier can hand you spare ammo
-Ammo costs are 20x higher
The grunts are going to hate it. Although they won't care about the monetary costs.
real
I only met very very few soldiers and civs that "like" it. I did not see much praise at all besides the penetration. Thats not really a shining star upgrade when you got 12.7mm and 20mm out there usually as well. Also I held one, its heavier for very little to no benefit, have fun clearing corners with that chunky shit lol. Not a fan of the profile either.
You can add a bit more positives to the XM-7 like longer reach, body armor and light vehicle armor busting capability but that was it... Not a big advancement at all. Maybe a good choice for desert and open field battle but not in a city which also includes CQB operations.
No allied soldiers are handing us ammo now lol
@DocAllen424 if you're in Poland fighting Russians, a polish dude operating a 5.56 AK could share ammo with you. Or any nato member.
They went with the 5.56 specifically because it doesn't over penetrate, they wanted the round to dump all it's energy into it's target and not continue through and hit a potential non-combatant, the fact that the Army is pushing for these now tells me they're preparing for operations outside of the urban settings we've been in the past few decades. I'm sure they'll keep the M4 around specifically for urban ops, but it sounds to me like they're serious about being ready for a real military opponent.
Who do you predict will be the next country the USA will get into war with? We know that 5.56 struggled in desert combat which is why the .277 fury or 6.8 is being developed. I'll take a wild guess by saying Russia
Former Navy public affairs officer here -
TLDR, this is 100% NOT what soldiers *really* think of the XM7.
Officially released troop “feedback,” quotes given to “Stars & Stripes,” these are all carefully managed by DOD PAOs (public affairs officers).
It’s called “command information,” aka, propaganda.
Info produced for public release won’t contain factual errors…but it (generally) will also *never* include negative criticism.
tbf they need that funding and all, so there's certainly incentive to only tell one side of the story
@@dead-claudia sure. My point is, & I state this with true respect for all our servicemembers, officially released “feedback” from active duty isn’t a credible source. That’s not the fault of the soldiers; that’s just PAOs doing their job.
It’d be like calling a tobacco PR rep’s answer about cigarette health affects “facts.”
Right…show me a piece of equipment us jerks like straight up, and I’ll show you a stripper with beer..and that’s about it
This entire channel is a propaganda repeater op.
And Cappy is practically a DoD mouthpiece at this point, so it makes sense
them brushing off the weight is concerning and that officer saying "just work on your biceps" shows he doesnt even understand the problem
The M1 was heavier and it won a world war.
@@GrumpyNCO That man carried 80 rounds total and was fighting soldiers with bolt actions.
@@GrumpyNCO Guess they were jumping in an out of vehicles with plate carriers and ACHs in that World War too, huh?
I wonder how the 6.8x51mm ammo compares to the 30-06?
I don't know how they managed to pick the few guys who actually like it. My 2 buddies I went to osut with in 506 say the gun is comically heavy and you can only carry like 140 rounds. They said the optic is dope as hell though
The weight isn't an issue, until it turns out that overland speed and range reduce for the footsoldier carrying the thing in combat conditions. You can't gym your way out of physics.
The weapon weight isn't drastically higher, but the ammo is twice the weight
Yeah, anyone who says weight isn't an issue has never had to carry 120lb+ for weeks on end. Every gram counts, especially when your life is on the line. It'd be excusable if they weren't trying to make every soldier a marksmen for no reason, we operate with combined arms specifically so your average grunt doesn't need to engage a technical with his rifle half a mile away.
Right? Let me get 10 minutes extra in the gym every day and 10 minutes extra sleep and I'll be able to handle the new weight. Lol😂
Someone in procurement has a mental image of the Future War where your infantry squad is backed by drones/robots carrying extra ammo.
@@Xynth25 This most likely be a 50-year rifle. 50 years was the difference between the bi-plane in service and the F-15 in service. We don't know where drone and robot technology will be going in 50 years. Those rifles might be going against T-800s for all we know.
Do you want to know why I like your channel? It's not just because it's interesting, educational, and amusing, but because it's not like the countless other channels that seem intent on tearing down people who think or look differently than the commentator.
It's nice to *just* learn something, without someone trying to implicitly tell you to hate someone else.
Keep it up, man.
It's easy to impress someone with a new range toy. Living 99.92% of your infantryman life not firing your gun...the extra 4 lbs. in your arms will get old really quick. "living" with your gun is a big component of a common infantry weapon. Carrying it, stashing it, getting in/out of vehicles, cleaning it, maintaining it, etc. Almost more important than any other aspect of your basic infantry weapon.
I think this weapon and it's insane optic will be fine for special units, but will never make it into the hands of your average grunt (fortunately). Direct action elements, and special sauce boys will probably appreciate it's capabilities.
And even IF you use it in that 0.08% of all case… more bullets usually beats better penetration.
Not to mention we operate with combined arms specifically so your average grunt doesn't need to engage targets half a mile out with his rifle. Looking forward to command slowly admitting they didn't actually test this with anyone who knows what they're talking about and delay until everyone forgets... again.
Having to present the weapon on-target quickly equals living vs dying. This is a major step away from a good weapon in that regard, as all the weight is forward due to that stupid gas piston system and weak folding stock.
Damn, it sounds like troops carrying around sharp sticks rather than guns would be better in all the ways that matter.
I think thats a good thing imo. Something thats given to forces that are in active combat or expected to be on short notice
When we are talking about "punching through steel" keep in mind 3 things, 1) the type of steel (is it a high RHC or something akin to armored steel with a hardness of 450-600) 2) the type or "composition" of 5.56 or 6.8, meaning what type of 6.8 is being used compared to the 5.56 (M995) that would likely penetrate that amount of steel 3) what barrel length was being used to fire that projectile=what speed the projectile was moving when it penetrated that amount of steel
Said with a fair bit of irony
Steel ... Ferrous metal - a bit like Iron
So its irony ! [ I'll get my coat ]
@@babboon5764 Glad we got that ironed out.
It's mild steel. If it's steel at all and not a very soft iron alloy. Targets aren't made of hardened steel, ricochets would cause safety problems.
This AP round will not go through any armored vehicle, not even close. It's a gigantic scam, 15 bucks a round is going to make some people who are already rich even richer. And the grunts will have a heavier rifle with less ammo when all statistics show you need on average a very large amount of rounds fired to achieve a kill. The M4 is plenty accurate by the way, it's not the rifle that causes that hit to miss ratio. Most fire is suppressive fire and when you only have 20 rounds and fewer mags keeping suppressive fire on a target is going to be a problem.
Yeah, saying something "punches through steel" is like saying "it flies". Paper airplanes fly, and so does the most advanced aircraft in the world, but at *very* different degrees. Overall just seems like a downgrade IMO, heavier, less overall rounds per soldier, smaller magazine so we get a bit more range and pen despite operating with combined arms so your average grunt doesn't need to take out technicals with his rifle lol.
@AlitaGunm99:-“Iron tired of all this irony stuff!”
@6:40. It sounds like this rifle is more fitted as a Designated Marksman’s (DM) rifle, instead of an every infantrymen rifle. Because of the increased weight, decreased ammo capacity, different round than normal military units and the rounds ability to reach out and seriously touch someone.
I get the feeling they are gearing more toward a UMG focused squad again. And you want ammo commonality. The machine guns are far more important in large set piece battles. This whole thing feels like a throwback to the logic of sticking with 7.62 after ww2.
Yep, heavier, smaller magazine, less rounds overall, etc. Just seems like a massive downgrade when your individual soldier isn't meant to be a marksmen, there's a reason we operate with volume of fire and combined arms, specifically so your average grunt doesn't need to take out a technical half a mile away with his rifle. Well, at least some politicians will make bank on their investments right?
At That point you can go full 7.62 by 51 nato
The 300 blackout for night ops silent ops is okay but it is getting complex fasz
think you're right
@@Stealth86651with the optic/technology it seems like the military is pivoting towards attempting to make every infantryman a marksman.
Not sure it will work out look Iike planned
The official M-16 load out may claim to be 210 rounds of 5.66/.233 , but in real life....We carried a load out of 1,500 rds of .233 for our M-16 issue rifles in 1980-1984 when my boots were on the ground. Grenades were everywhere we could stash them. As an officer I also carried a 1911A1 with 5 mags total. With a K bar and a bayonet we swam with scuba gear, hauling this load out. We wished we could carry more. Everyone also carried at least one belt for our 4 M-60's per platoon of marines, or with a SEAL team squad to help us. Thank you SEAL TEAM 4, from Roosevelt Roads, PR. You saved my life.
I call BS. First of all, .233? I assume you mean .223....and by that, you would really mean 5.56. 1500 rounds of .223/5.56 is about 40 pounds, just for the ammo. No chance a single individual is carrying 40 pounds of ammo on top of regular load out, and apparently scuba gear. If you meant 1500 rounds spread out amongst a whole fire team, possible, but that is not what you wrote...and the fact that you got the ammo types wrong in multiple spots shows that wasn't a typo. Oh, and it is Marine...always a capital M, always.
Exactly...
@@devildogcody Sounds like a regular Butter Bar to me, can't read a map and compass or get their facts straight, I (Army MP PSD Team leader) carried an extra eight loaded mags in my ready bag but I was usually close to a vehicle or chopper while on mission, Afghanistan 2007-2008 and 2010-2012
@@devildogcody Fifty 30-round mags is a lot to carry on an individual. Would have to make use of the 'ol prison wallet to carry that many.
When I was in the US Army, we had m16's. In about 2004, this was too long and slowed down soldiers being transported via HMMWV. I would like to own my own XM7. For protection of my residence of course, I have nothing to compensate for!
It's available in civvie version as the MCX SPEAR. Bit it'll run you somewhere along the lines of $5k.
I remember seeing that Sig had a 9” barreled version of this weapon, so I wonder if that’s something they’ll move forward with. It seems like that would be a lot easier to maneuver around with in CQB environments.
@@goldenageofdinosaurs7192in about 20 years the Marines are gonna want an awful lot of those.
You're not going to be able to buy the same 6.8 ammo as the military uses and the MCX Spear isn't even proofed for the XM-7 68,000 psi ammo.
So, ‘I have nothing to compensate for,” could be interpreted two ways. 1. Whatever you have requires no compensation OR 2. You literally have nothing so compensation is unnecessary. The second interpretation is probably the more precise use of language.
Personally, I think they would be better if they went to each rifle squad and upgraded them with 1-2 XM7s for designated marksmen and one of the machine gunners with an XM250. I know it would add a logistical burden, but >90% of engagements are won by the quantity of lead, not the quality of the round. It would add the additional capability without majorly sacrificing the squads ammunition capacity.
The army probably wants soldiers to kill faster with fewer shots.
Because the more lead you fire down range, the more sound and light you generate.
Sound will make you an target for any enemy artillery that can hear you. Light will get you killed by drones at night.
The marines are so worried about sound that they're starting to issue suppressors across the board.
This. I think quantity of bullets per soldier is vastly underestimated.
Ukrainian soldiers usually surrender because they run out of bullets, not because they couldn’t penetrate Russian airsoft quality vests.
80 % of any fights is won by artillery
Yep, also ignores that in generall soldiers shoot okay, not amazingly. The amount of time and training it takes to get someone from "okay" to "great" in order to actually use this rifle to the full extent will never happen. Also we sorta operate with combined arms specifically so your average grunt doesn't need to engage targets half a mile out with his rifle lol.
Very British/Russian of you because that's how they run (ran in the case of the Russians) their squads.
In case you missed it criticisms of the XM-7 starts at 15:05
I instructed in rifle marksmanship, for US Army under contract, and LE. With a higher recoiling rifle shoulder placement, sling, and forearm grip all become more critical. This can be overcome with a serious amount of training. But even with optics it's doubtful that engagements will be farther than 200 meters away. On a battlefield that isn't a desert, just farmland in middle US, you cant see 800 meters. Too many things in the way and they wont be on a Known distance range. With targets moving at angles and with less than 10 seconds to engage wil it hit? Doubtful. Even with new optic I would be very surprised at even 500 meters that a target that doesn't want to be hit , would be.
Not to mention at those ranges you shouldn’t be shooting and giving away your position, you should be calling in support assets like call for fire, CAS, tanks, or Bradley’s.
Should Pin this msg. Also I do believe it was the best of the worse. The caseless gun was a no go and no confidence in the ergo design and others and seems dirty(familiar problem?), The bullpup was sweet and great ammo, but we won't go with an bulpup are we, it just, beyond any technical, psychologically just is bad plus culturally doesn't fit. The army really wanted the XM250 and it was sweet and they came in a package. TBH, select backtroop can have the bullpup and in select situation. Also i thought they could have mixed up the gun and ammo to use TVelocity ammo. Perhaps and hoping in the future.
Something i don't ever see pointed out is that the XM7 with the suppressor (as it is supposed to be used) is about as long as an M16.
@@danwilliams5867 I think the point isn't to be lethal at 500 meters but to have effective suppression. Part of the reason the Marines got rid of their machine guns is they found that well-aimed shots were just as effective at suppression as spraying bullets from an inaccurate machine gun. And if you have some idea of the equipment your adversary is working with, you improve your ability to maneuver with the additional standoff range because they can't effectively return fire.
Soilders will be able to carry less ammo, and as the Great Erwin Rommel said - "In a man-to-man fight, the winner is he who has one more round in his magazine." We also learned this lesson in Vietnam....
Erwin Rommel was a coward who lost most of his troops, didn't follow orders and had to poison himself. Guess the extra round in his magazine didn't help him.
Task & Purpose using my art at 1:30 was not on my checklist. Thanks man
Great work ! Email me if there’s some way you like me to credit you in the description Capelluto@taskandpurpose.com
I'm pretty sure I have one of your bocchi stickers on one of my ammo cans.
What they are not telling you is how much they love the new optic... I am not joking when I say this, I have seen the tests and demonstrations, that new optic makes shooting that rifle almost like a video game. It's almost like playing Battlefield 4, you can "tag" multiple targets and it remembers the location, distance, wind speed and direction so all you have to do is point the crosshair directly at the target and it does the rest for you, BAM rounds on target at range.
Again, I am not making this up, that optic is that good, it has a built in laser rangefinder, and atmospheric monitor built into it.
So many run-on sentences. Put a safety on that thing 😂
that compute power and sensor placement could be a factor in that weight tbh
@@inspectortragic The safety was broken
How them batteries looking
Forgetting about the batteries that will go dead as soon as you need them...Does a Laser Range Finder emit something that could be detected by an opposing force? Giving that force a bearing and range? A bunch of Privates with lasers...Sounds like a GREAT IDEA.
The round, most importantly, will penetrate some ship hulls.
Which for smaller speed vessels like Houthis use will be at much greater risk
Model ship hulls. Made of plastic. Maybe.
@@warbuzzard7167 no, smaller fast ships definitely. Your brain jumps to warship and that's silly but there are plenty of smaller vessels where it could be in crazy efficient
@@warbuzzard7167nice logic bro. Cause Russia is gonna be using revell model ships in their navy. Of course we’re talking about smaller boats. Not full fledged warships
@@kyledabearsfan My first thought was 'swift boat'. I am quite surprised that someone might actually think 'Mighty Mo'.😄 Love the 'Battleship' movie, btw.
XM7 weakness = heavy weight, barrel length too long, short mag capacity, not ideal for CQB, & slower to draw. Strengths = range, rate of fire, penetration, ideal for sniping with attached Sig LVPO/MVPO. Please redesign? Most the average build kids in the army won't like it much carrying that hunk of steel.. also it will not make you faster in a gun draw.
Still going from 210 rnds to 140 is crazy
Still more than what U.S. troops in WW2 carried.
20rd mags instead of 30 is a huge deal too. A bog complaint with the M14 and early M16 was the small 20rd mags while the VC got AK's with 30's. Wonder what those soldiers would think about the Army going back to huge 20rd mags again.
@@orlock20 yea but that was basically how much every country had things r different now
@@orlock20so lol this isn’t ww2
@@theflyingfish66its crazy how fast militaries can forget, like, one of the key lessons of Viet Nam: volume of fire usually wins, because most people are too scared sh*tless to do any of the other things that could win a gun fight.
The XM-7 is a battle rifle, the XM-250 is a light machine gun. The military still needs that lightweight assault rifle in the M4.
They could use the sig tread just use a 6.2mm bullet in a 556 casing
I was wondering what the regular soldier will use to zero and qualify with,which is still a big issue in the army. Lots of soldiers don't shoot very well,most have trouble zeroing and qualifying with the M-4.I'm speaking from experience,did 7 yrs in the army and volunteered to go on 4 deployments to go fight in Iraq with Texas Guard infantry units ( also did 2 tours back-to back ) boy,was I-CRAZY-I look back now and wonder what was I thinking ??? LOL. Or smoking ??? LOL.
XM-7 be used as a DMR and same 6.8 round in the light machine gun? Develop smaller round for standard infantry? I mean isn't that what we have now? i.e. 5.56 and .308.
@@kerry-j4m Well apparently hitting the 200m, 250m, and 300m targets will be a cakewalk with the new optics. They say.
@@Keithustus That's true,but,what happens if soldiers ( there's a reason things in the army are called soldier proof ) break the optics or it malfunctions ??? I'd have soldiers shoot with optics,then shoot using iron sights.
"Turning cover into concealment" might be the coldest thing i have ever heard
Also, to quote Johnny Dangerously, "It shoots through schools."
The first time I heard that "turning cover into concealment" line, it was referring to the M-1 Garand. 🙂
doesn't matter when you're fighting drones. how do you think these fare against drone attacks?
@@grogdizzy5814 i guess its the same as with most other rifles. If you git the dronw its going down, i think most Rifle calibers would probably do that
I mean...people have been saying it for decades
After seeing what that round did to a ballistic gel dummy. Im sold. It’s a monster. It delivers so much energy very accurately.
Thanks Cap! Been looking real well into the XM-7 and 6mm cartridges overall recently, this is real interesting.
The truth is it’s a total POS. That’s from retired JSOC guys who are dealing with it back for big Army as contact officers managing acquisitions. Their words, “This thing is a total abortion.” Guys from within PEO said major subcontractors are pulling out because they can’t get the systems to work, and don’t want their brand name associated with failure.
Notice that Ranger Regiment, SF, and JSOC are avoiding this POS like the plague.
I’m curious, for the soldiers that said the weight was negligible, did they actually ruck with the rifle 10 to 20 miles, or did they just shoot it at the range?
Unfortunately 90 percent of current soldiers have not deployed, and have no idea!
Well said Andrew.
Cappy said something interesting that I'd never really considered. If his point about the chamber pressure of the spicy round is about the same as being 3 miles deep, that means those poor bastards in the Oceansgate sub got to feel what it's like inside the chamber of an XM7
Nah, they popped long before their synapses carried the signals and their brain processed them.
@@Stealth86651 Imagine going from alive to heaven at such speed as to give you whiplash, hahaha.
@@Predator42ID The guy who owned the company didn't. Straight from ocean to a lake of lava.
@@Predator42IDyou really think they went to heaven?😂😂
Pressure is a weak way to measure trajectory flatness
50 bmg is 55k psi for example. 308 is 62k. 338 lapua is 61k psi. 5.56 is 58k psi.
Yeah, I will believe them AFTER they have gone on long patrols, firefights and carrying that load all day every day! Also, doubt they would say anything bad about them, this was clearly a very controlled environment!
Yep...as I mentioned in my own response, 99.92% of the time an infantry is just carrying his gun...or cleaning it...or moving in and out of vehicles with it. In essence "living" with it. Shooting a gun prone at a range is not anything like living with it day-to-day. Taking it to the sh_t-shed in your shorts while at a FOB, etc.
I'd take this rifle hands down. The stopping power is something that I want and I would carry extra weight for. I mean come on, not that it's a good thing, but the weights we carry just keep going up and up. I'd still take it.
This was clearly Cappy reporting on propaganda, and nothing more.
Fudds coping and seething in comments. Cry harder that it's not 1951.
Some marine squads were carrying m27s(same weight as the US ARMY's XM7) during the afghan wars, no one complained.
"I need a heavier rifle and less ammo," has been uttered by exactly no infantry man in history.
You're ignoring the key advantages the XM7 is bringing. One of the main issues with the M4 and its 5.56 round is that it struggles against body armor and cover at longer ranges. The XM7 fixes this issue and then some. Yes it is heavier and carries less ammo, but this is a necessary loss to gain the ability to overcome near-pear threats that make heavy use of body armor.
@KnobleKnight2002 why would I care about the penetrative capability of a rifle at 600M when I can drop 60mm mortars on it?
"I need a heavier rifle capable of laying down better suppressive fire and with better stopping power" said every infantryman ever stfu and re-enlist or keep it pushing normie.
@@ralphblack510 So an even heavier weapon and even less ammo? I think you are proving his point.
I was a grunt for a long time, the one thing that never changes, Ounces = Pounds, Pounds = Pain.
If the Rifle Platoon gets this, I would keep the M4 for Squad Leader, RTO's, Medic, Ammo Bearers in Weapon Squad. Comparable to the role of the M1/M2 carbine from the 40's to the 60's.
Remember extra Ranger Candy and moleskin due to the extra weight.
That sounds like around 5 different ammo types that would need to be carried.
@@brianw3415 two. Its two. 6.8, .556.
I agree but the whole point of this rifle and the XM250 was to get everyone on the same caliber, including machine gunners who previously would've had a M240 in 7.62. One caliber that rules them all so to speak. So it has the same energy as a 7.62, with weight and recoil somewhere in the middle of 5.56 and 7.62, so you get the best of both worlds. This comes with a lot of compromise though as does anything
@casematecardinal So no 9x19 sidearm, 40mm grenade launchers, and 7.62x51 240B?
Many not the best weapon system as a standard infantry rifle but put a couple in a squad as a marksman, squad leader rifle and machine gunner and you've got an absolute banger
Ok, usual thing that happens when Squaddies get a new bit of kit is that they manage to break it 20 mins later in ways the designers couldnt have imagined...
They won't allow any soldier who has negative comments talk.
And you know this how?
@@samsonsoturian6013 23 years of service
Not yet , negative feedback will start to leak here and there , then it’ll reach even the friendly outlets eventually , by then it’ll be safe to assume the brass has already decided to cancel the program
Best comment here, and completely true.
"So it is better because it is bigger and more powerful than a 556?" said the 7.62x51, and 30/06 interjects, back in my day sonny, we went through full trees to show our stuff...
From the sound of it, the 6.8 goes through even bigger trees…
@@andrewreynolds4949 It would have higher penetration, yes, but not as much energy. A 30.06 Springfield, what the M1 Garand used, comes in 3,800 to 4,100 joules of energy with a 7.62 mm bullet that was FMJ copper with a lead core. The hybrid rounds for AP the Spear is firing have only 3,650 joules of energy according to the manufacturer's specs. If that is what the Army's ammo is at, we don't know. It could be heavier and/or faster, so more energy than that. It having a special composition tom make it penetrate better, mainly something really dense and hard, like, say, a tungsten rod or tip, or some other technology in the round, is where it really performs well. The round penetrating body armor and killing the target wearing it is another thing it does better.
A pine or other soft wood tree the 30.06 would go through better. A hardwood tree, like oak or a tropical hardwood would likely favor the Spear's rounds. But they aren't killing treas with this. The US uses Napalm for that anyway...
@@andrewreynolds4949The 308 runs at 55kpsi. The 277 runs at 80kpsi. If you construct a 308 with the steel case head and jack it up to the same pressure, there's no real advantage to the 277. Apples to apples.
@@CR67 and then redesign every 308 platform from the ground up so the rifle doesn't just shit itself after a magazine from the massively increased chamber pressure
@@jeremyhesson2719 OK. Back at you. Why release a civilian weak ass 277 with LESS CAPABILITY than either a 308 or 7mm-08?
Everyone having a suppressor might be a bad thing. I believe that it was Carlos Hathcock (might've been John Plaster) that said that during a fight he was being chased/shot at, and the enemy was ignoring his unit shooting back and kept charging. Since they all had suppressors, the enemy wasn't even aware they were being shot at.
My biggest worry is the change in tactics for suppressing fire and drawn out engagements. The decrease in ammo and increase in fatigue is going to have huge effects on the battlefield. Body armor or not, nobody wants to be hit by a bullet. Just because 5.56 wont outright kill someone with plates, doesn't mean it has physical and huge psychological effects. The extra ammo means you can afford to suppress your enemy continue to maneuver. It wont be the same with the new weapon. People are going to have to relearn everything.
thing is, bigger bullets you know can rip through your body armor coming from from 800m away will have a much worse psychological impact than ammo you know your body armor can take coming from 200m away.
light ammo from 200m away you have a chance of surviving, and you'd likely be able to see where it came from. heavy ammo from 800m away renders your body armor useless, and you'd never be able to find where it came from.
it takes fewer shots to effectively pin, which is kinda the point of suppressive fire.
@@dead-claudiabut body armor won't cover majority of your body area.
even if the 5.56mm won't outright kill the torso-armoured enemy, that doesn't mean his unarmoured limbs might not get hit and get wounded
and this might be an even worse capability loss, since he is just wounded, the squad would have to expend another guy to carry him back
@@dead-claudia I don't know anyone who has been shot at that has ever felt invincible in the moment, usually the opposite. The psychological effect of getting shot at is the same, especially since the enemy sure as hell isn't thinking in the moment what kind of new gun the enemy is shooting you with. If anything, the part they care about most is the rate of fire, accuracy, and how much ammo they have. Two things the XM7 loses to the M4 in.
@@dead-claudia no way this can defeat something that can stop 30-06 black tips.
It's way heavier and carries less ammo, I'm willing to bet the general consensus among grunts is that it's not that great. Stars and stripes isn't an unbiased source lol
I have 12 relatives in Ukraine fighting on the frontline. NONE of them said they would trade the ability to carry more ammo for a rifle that weighs more, even if it is more precise and has more stopping power. Russian body armor is mostly garbage and they say even the 5.56 given to them from the west usually kills the russians with armor... also noting, in their experience, only about 30% of the Russian soldiers they find dead even have actual body armor equipped (most are just given a carrier, with no actual plates inside). They say asking them to cut their ammo supply down by 40% or more would be a death sentence, since a vast majority of gunfighting in Ukraine by infantry is suppressive in nature, NOT on-target aimed shots. Less ammo means less ability to suppress enemies, which to my cousins, they say is far more important than having a more precise / harder hitting rifle in the few times they can actually SEE the soldier they are shooting at.
If there's anything to learn from the russo-ukrainian war - firearms are rarely even used, and when they are - it happens at such a distance where caliber and ballistics barely matter. Also, an average grunt is already carrying way too much stuff and specialists like LMG gunners are expiriencing constant back issues. I'd rather carry a portable jammer that may protect me from drones than a chunk of a rifle I'm not even sure I'm gonna use.
@@ОлегКорнійчук-е1х This is the experience of my cousins and uncles fighting in Ukraine. Most (all in fact) have killed Russian soldiers, but they say 9 times out of 10, it was with blind suppressive fire at range, not precision shots. Both sides exchange a constant barrage of bullets, the winner is usually the one with a better position and more ammo. Ukrainians carry about 50% more ammo (100%+ more if the Russian is a prisoner conscript, they usually only have 1 or 2 mags on them) per infantryman than the average Russian soldier does. None of them said they would ever trade more ammo for a more precise / harder hitting rifle.
The reality of war is very different from expectation of war. Everyone thinks they're going to have clean lines of sight from a safe position aiming at an enemy soldier. In reality, you CAN'T see your enemy 90% of the time due to concealment, range and constant suppression / flying dirt etc. So both sides just suppress one another, with random blind-fired bullets doing most of the small-arms killing in infantry combat. But the bulk of actual kills comes from which side can call in drone support, artillery or utilize mortar strikes to kill the other side first.
Speaking to one of my cousins, he says he's killed far more Russians with lobbed grenades than he has with his rifle. "I suppress the enemy position with my rifle while we get closer... then we kill them with grenades. We usually never even see them, ever. We just find their bodies afterwards."
I'd imagine UA troops wouldn't be excited about there only being a single source for the ammo either.
@@ОлегКорнійчук-е1х yes. But we must remember Taiwan is not Ukraine.
Drone operations are trickier in an heavy jungle. Blasting the opponent into submission with artillery is trickier in the heavy jungle.
We're fighting in Vietnam conditions again. That's why they are giving us the rifle that the M14 claimed to be.
A 20 round rifle that's controllable in full auto, with enough penetration to punch through tree's.
I'm part of the over 50 crowd and I don't have any war stories to share, but I do have some personal anecdotes. After I retired to rural Montana I decided I needed a bigger thumper to deal with any predators that got too close to my home, family, pets, or livestock. Over the course of a couple of years I engaged wolves, coyotes, and cougars at ranges from under 20 meters to over 100 meters with a scope mounted FAL in 7.62 NATO. The result of these encounters was apparently all misses. The FAL proved too awkward to swing and engage at close range, plus the scope made it difficult to judge where to aim. Even when using the scope at 100m meters on coyotes, I was missing them by a wide margin as they ran. My takeaway from this was a need for a light handy iron-sighted carbine, so I returned to using the AR15. While not ideal bear medicine (I have other long guns for them), the AR remains king of CQB and out to 250 meters without a need for any sight change or fancy optics.
Your FAL probably knocked all your scope fixtures lose in short order, it takes a really tough scope to survive the weird recoil impulse of the FAL…
@@donaldmartin4980 No, I checked it for accuracy afterwards and nothing had shifted. It's simply an awkward rifle to maneuver quickly and easily. This is equally true of the AR10, G3, M1, and M14. From a well supported rest they perform well. Offhand or from an unstable support they are trickier to handle than an AR15.
@@Paladin1873 Interesting, I have seen FALS disassemble scopes in the past … they are rather cumbersome, lol.
@@Paladin1873 Just looking at what your application of this weapon was ….have you ever considered a short barrel lever action carbine in .357 magnum?.. 125 grain loads get 2,100 to 2250 fps great for self defense and coyotes, 158 grain for deer, 180 grain for hogs or black bear. Not to mention .38 special for small problems ….they handle fast, virtually no recoil, hit hard, nine in the tube another nine on a butt cuff…and it all weighs about 5.5 pounds. I have a Rossi M 92, 16 inch barrel .357 magnum…..it gets used about 90 percent of the time around my place. They need a little clean up of rough edges and set of skinner sights but they are a pretty awesome little tool in my humble opinion.
@@donaldmartin4980 Yes, I keep a Rossi 16" Model 92 handy that is loaded with 180 grain Bear loads. I often take it with me when I walk the dog. I also have a Rossi Rio Grande in 45/70, but it is simply too large and unwieldy when compared to the 92.
It was nice to see patch of the 301st Maneuver Enhancement Brigade at around the 4:34 time. :)
Even if they say the weight isn’t as big of a deal as most people think (which I find highly unlikely, since EVERY bit of extra weight affects the soldier’s ability to fight)-they’re still carrying less ammunition than whatever the enemy is going to have. And thus run out of bullets MORE QUICKLY.
Not to mention, they’re still going to need to fight in close quarters combat against enemies with 30-round magazines.
Isn’t it designed to try to out-range the enemy? If it does, that would compensate. And the ammo amount isn’t all that different from a normal magazine before. It isn’t everything for a gun, either. Not by a long shot.
So? tghe US army really runs out of bullets and if they do they just broke out of a bubble which how I envision this weaponsystem being use is death star tactics put your disvsion here make a FOB and now you denied the enemy a sector... THE US ARMY NEVER HAD IT THIS GOOD!
The marines M27 weighs the same as the XM7 with a worse round. And because they don't carry machine guns, they also carry less ammo per squad.
I heard guys in Ukraine say that In an ideal situation you have 9 to 11 mags. One in the gun 8 on a chestrig and two on the sides (very specific chestrig to be fair).
@@mecampbell30 Yea, good point. The M27 IAR is same weight as the XM7. So I actually believe when soldiers say (even those that didn't go through the military press release) you notice the weight but quickly get used to it.
Length wise, the XM7 is in the middle of a fully extended IAR and full retracted stock IAR. And definitely still shorter than the M16, but longer than the M4. The main difference with the M27 IAR is that the IAR is similarly balanced as the M4. XM7 is more front heavy which is why people think it'll be worse in CQB. I heard rumors that Sig will try to address some of these with better cuts to shift the weight around. But those are internet rumors. Either way, it's still in field trials so things might change for the better in this regard. So, I think the concerns about weight and length is a bit overstated.
People are just used to the older M4 but both weight and length isn't that unreasonable relative to the M16 and M27 IAR. the comparison with the M14 is poor because the M14 is even HEAVIER and LONGER than the XM7. M14 also was far harder to control when fully auto. Everyone who fired it I've seen say the XM7 is very controllable despite the extra power.
Lastly, and where I do personally have concerns for is the reduced ammo count from 30 per mag to 20. There's also 25 round magazine available which I think might mitigate some of the issues, but of course that means extra weight. I never seen a infantrymen say they ever have enough ammo. That said, there's a bit too much doom posting on the whole M7 rifle. There was a lot of doom posting on the M250 too saying how "it's better than the M249 but M249 was just bad, th XM250 isn't a good gun either." but once people got to shoot it, tat all went away. Same with the Vortex NGSW optic. People talked about the weight of the optic (despite its replacing MULTIPLE systems not just the previous optic) but once people got to try it out, everyone is saying how they love it.
soldier A: "didn't notice the double weight"
soldier B: "when you picked it up you immediately noticed the extra weight of it"
also, soldiers never speak badly of the military when press is around........
Everyone also have differing opinions. They aren't a hivemind. But yes, military press is always going to be praise. Only time will tell if it's the right decision. I'm personally cautiously optimistic but I understand the concerns.
I imagine in terms of having it around all day, the increase in weight wasn't considered a deal-breaker. But when actually having to handle it in CQB, the weight did make it sluggish.
I'd always heard the opposite, that the rifles ideally would weigh nothing for carrying around all day, cuz a long patrol with a 10lb gun sucks; but in combat a little extra weight was suddenly worthwhile if it gave you a firepower benefit.
It would be one thing if it was only slightly heavier than an M-16 and still had a 26-30 round mag. But it's basically just like saying "do you want to ditch the M4 and issue the AR-10?"
@@scottwatrous I'm a combat vet, weight matters. Try carrying a combat load for 10+hrs every day, and then having to fight an ambush when you are exhausted. Adrenaline helps, but all grunts end up with physical injuries for life.
Never has a grunt asked for More weight. No amount of weight lifting will protect you from injuries due to carrying excessive weight. Doubling the weight of a rifle is Huge. And we did change our weapons overseas to reduce weight. Many guys stopped running all sorts of issued accessories as they deemed the weight not worth it.
The XM7 is like carrying a SAW or 2x M4 rifles at once. And for added capabilities most guys don't need, or lack the skill to use. Most guys can't hit 300m with an M4. And most engagements occurred inside 200m where the M4 has Significant advantage over the XM7 (speed, weight, maneuverability, rate of fire, controllability, mag capacity, total ammo capacity....). And the US remains one of the only countries on earth that uses body armor. No enemy we've faced issues body armor. And body armor doesn't cover the vast majority of teh body such as the pelvis, gut, and head.
@@neurofiedyamato8763 I can already tell you from years of combat experience, including being interviewed by the press, that this is a mistake. I'm also a mechanical engineer and military historian. tons of issues with the XM7 becoming the standard issue rifle. I would chose an M4 or M16 over the XM7 any day. I'd even pick an M110 over the XM7 in a heartbeat.
Been there, done that, and used a variety of weapons. The only thing the XM7 has that I'd be interested in is the optic, which is not a part of the XM7, and can be mounted on literally any rifle.
Regarding shooting through concrete. In Europe, there are clay? bricks, porous concrete and solid reinforced concrete - all circa 20 to 30 cm (little under 8 to little under 12 inches) deep. I doubt the bullet goes through solid concrete. But I could be mistaken.
The Chinese are equipping their soldiers with body armor equal to American soldier's body armor. Hell, American body armor is probably made in China. Yeah right, its all about the concrete.
Yeah, cinder blocks are much weaker than the brick and reinforced concrete that European homes are constructed. Cinder block buildings are more what you encounter in 3rd world towns and sub-urbs.
They don't. You can see footage from the balkan wars where DShK rounds are failing to go through commie block apartment building walls. That's a .50 (12.7 actually, similar ballistics) failing to penetrate. A puny 6.8 will do absolutely nothing.
This is a scam. 15 bucks a round? It's obvious why they are pushing it as hard as they do....
In all shooting tests in the U.S. (both military and TH-cam) we like to shoot basic, unfilled concrete bricks and exclaim how much penetrating power they have. It looks good on camera.
jup buildings build after 1960 are mostly made out of somethign with a hollow core or very porous material, cement is like 2,4g/cm³ (is used mostly only for cellars and ceilings) where building walls are between 0,3 and 1,2g/cm³. the newer the building the less it is.
Army dude here. Ammo and weapon are too heavy. We carry less ammo now, I would have to carry 4 more mags to have the same amount of rounds as I did before. Supressor is the best choice they could have made. The rifle itself is a great platform, amazing to shoot, low recoil, and for points this weapon is sexy. The SAW is just fine, no complaints, a really good system.
We got two great weapons. Chamber these in 5.56 and make them lighter and id have no complaints. I hope im proven wrong though.
Have you ever used the M27/HK416?
I think the key to understanding the intent with the XM7/XM250 is to get out of the COD/Battlefield/Airsoft/CQB-assault-course mentality, and instead look at it within a more classical infantry warfare framework:
In that framework, the job of infantry units encountering other infantry units isn't actually to gun them down, it's to suppress/pin them (if they have effective cover) or push them back (if they don't have cover or if the cover can be penetrated at that range), with any casualties just being bonus. Opposing infantry units are supposed to be neutralized by artillery and/or air (and/or drone, now?) strikes once they've been pinned and their location called in.
At that point, the deciding factor in infantry-on-infantry engagements is each unit's effective range, which is an emergent property of both the unit's accuracy and the range at which a hit will still be potentially lethal (which can be affected by the target's armoring), leavened by volume of fire.
From what I've read/heard, M4s seem to have an accurate range around 400 yards, and the current Army standard 5.56 can penetrate plate body armor but only at significantly shorter ranges than that. From requirements docs, it sounds like the target that Army strategists are going for with NGSW is an effective range of 600 yards through a combination of accuracy (hence the scope) and power (hence the round), including against body armor equipped targets.
Theoretically, if your peer infantry opponent was equipped with something more along the lines of 5.56 (like, say, 5.8x42) with the corresponding 400 yard effective range (not even factoring in body armor), and the NGSW weapons really can hit an effective range of 600+, that could mean that Army infantry units could keep peer infantry pinned/suppressed at 200 yards past their own effective range, meaning your troops probably wouldn't even have to worry about stray shots hitting unarmored spots.
I would presume that within this framework, room-to-room house breaching is what you have SOCOM guys with their custom ordered .300blk PDWs for, and clearing bunkers is what you have grenades and AT4s for (notably, there's a new XM919 shoulder launched munition being introduced with what they're calling "behind the wall" effects), or else an M10 Booker rolls in and makes it go away.
Eh. Thats all well and good until the enemy enters an apartment building that your ROE won’t let you destroy, so you have to clear it room by room, block by block. With a longer, heavier weapon indoors.
Yeah there’s valid points on all sides of the argument. In theory there wouldn’t be close quarters room clearing in the next war. Buildings would be flattened. Bulldozed, and bombed. These aren’t for raids, it’s not for counter insurgency . Like you said , soldiers need to get out of COD mentality to see what they’re going for. Not sure if it’ll work tho
Ukraine is showing us CQB is still far, far more common than long range engagemens. GTFO off the propagand. @@Taskandpurpose
The complaints I have heard so far:
- This gun was made for a war that is already over (Afghanistan) where engagement ranges were beyond that of the M4
- This is an unwieldly gun for urban combat and CQB
- This gun is heavy, enjoy carrying on 20 mile ruck marches.
- 40% less ammo is no bueno
- Not using NATO standard rounds means no compatibility with allies
- Why not just give everyone a SCAR-H
I am no longer in the Service so I am curious to see how the platform ultimately performs in the field
- It was made for a war that has yet to happen (armor penetration)
- higher weight matters less for an increasingly mechanized force
This is more about Sig becoming the Boeing of the firearms world. They are deep in that government pocket now and need to justify more purchases/money/investment.
Based on historical precedent (Rhodesia and vietnam), it'll perform well in the jungle.
Its basically an expensive FAL that's easier to fire full auto. And 7.62 FAL's are adored in the jungle because they can blast through cover that'll stop weaker rounds.
That's why half the military's in south America still use the FAL.
@@oskar6661 Always felt a little sus that they got both the pistol contract the rifle AND the machine gun. They're good guns but damn
@@squidwardo7074 Yet no one complained when browning/colt/FN produced the majority of the contracts? Its how its always been.
I've never met another soldier that asked to carry a heavier weapon that holds less ammo. Especially since weapons are carried 98% of the time.
Good thing it's not heavier. The Sig Spear Assaulter K variant weighs as much as a MK18.
then you havent talked to some vietnam vets.
You've never met anyone that wanted to go to designated marksman? You never met anyone that wanted to go sniper? Did you actually ever serve?
@@firefighter1c57 theres a reason not every soldier is equipped like a marksman, more ammo wins gunfights, always. if you need bigger boom, call in the firesupport.
A javelin Holds 1 shot. And it is widely loved in Ukriane
I wanna remind everyone that, even though we focus on the XM-7, it isn't the point. Remember, this is the NGSW program. The point is to get a rife that is "Good enough" that has compatible ammo with the most casualty-producing weapon of the squad, which is the machine gun. The point of the shift is to give the _machine gunner_ and element more capability, not the individual rifleman.
So, don't ask if the XM--7 is better than a 5.56 AR; ask if the new XM-250 makes the fireteam, squad, and platoon more effective in a LSCO situation. The point is that you want something like 7.62NATO coming from your MG but something like 5.56 coming from your riflemen. But, you also need the two to use the same ammo for logistics purposes. When you look at it through this lens, it makes much more sense that this choice was made.
@@Isometrix116 still less effective due to weight constraints of what can be carried by light infantry.
1- 6.8x51 > 1- 5.56x45
210- 5.56x45 > 140- 6.8x51
And for the squad automatic rifleman:
500- 5.56x45 > 333- 6.8x51
@@usmcvet0313 You're still thinking with the COIN mindset though.
(For clarity, COIN = counter insurgency, LSCO = large scale combat operations. Right now, that is a fancy way of saying "China," but things tend to change over time, so that probably won't be the case forever).
If you are in LSCO, you aren't going to be using 500 rounds in your SAW while out on patrol. You're going to be in a trench or foxhole with a runner bringing ammo to you as you need it. If you are assaulting an enemy position, you will probably bring minimal kit. In Ukraine, they seem to prefer to run 3 mags on a plate carrier for things like storming trenches. They openly say that 6 mags is far in excess of what they need and will just slow the down. The fighting tends to be quick and intense. Add in the mechanized elements that can and will be carrying extra ammo and you really struggle to see that difference in ammo count mattering. What actually ends up mattering is logistical footprint. And, if things go as planned, .277 fury should be replacing 7.62x51 and 5.56. This means, in theory, less logistical footprint, meaning you end up with more ammo, not less since what matters becomes production and transport efficiency rather than how much a guy can carry.
Even if that doesn't end up mattering, what will matter is being able to penetrate barriers and armor with your SAW at distance. The M249 can't do this. Remember, in LSCO, we have to plan for every enemy soldier having level 4 plates. On the civillian side, I've seen plates rated for 6 M855a1 hits. What do you think will exist and be commonly used on the military side in 2030? Oh, also, remember, the enemy in LSCO knows how to fight, so they'll be using cover effectively. Hence, barrier penetration.
So, does carrying more ammo matter if it take 8-10 hits to take someone out? Does it matter if you are in a defensive position and don't have to carry that ammo? Does it matter if you are fighting quick and intense localized thrusts into trenchlines and defensive positions that will see you expend fewer than 100 rounds? And, overall, are you more effective with a more effective way of producing casualties with small arms fire? I'd say so. 5.56 is great, don't get me wrong, but it's not optimized for the world of LSCO and level 4 plates that we are looking toward.
@@Isometrix116 absolutely not thinking COIN. This rifle would make more sense in a COIN fight, because nearly all patrols are mounted. Resupply is a non issue because you dominate the air. In conventional war with a peer level adversary, they have the ability to deny you the use of land and air vehicle assets. Thus being able to carry more rounds becomes vastly more important, because resupply becomes much more difficult. A fight with China in the Pacific will look much different than Ukraine trench warfare, just as the two theaters were vastly different in WWII. 6.8x51 doesn’t have the ability to penetrate level 4 plates outside of 100m, and more likely 50m with available velocity data.
@usmcvet0313 Resupply seemed to be an issue in several COIN actions. Usually, it was because air was the only local available resupply. But, conceptually, the major difference is the fighting distance from a resupply. If you are in a trench, the resupply is pretty rapid and easy. If you are 2,000 miles from the nearest allied base, you'll have some problems. Note that not all combats took place in this way, it's just an example. But, with COIN, you were generally operating farther from supply bases. Sure, air support and air supply were viable, but they are also higher-level assets, held way above the squad level. When that's the case, you're going to be asked to hold out for much longer before support arrives. Hence, the need for more ammo on a given person.
But what about disrupting land supply lines? Yeah, that's going to be a big issue. But that's why this has to happen, logistics is significantly simplified by one ammo type.
A pacific war will look different: Yeah, it probably will. But we will probably still see trenchlines and fighting from a position that can store ammo rather than being forced to carry it all.
Oh! Armor penetration! I love this topic! I'm a materials physicist, so it's something I'm familiar with. Anyway, yes, "velocity defeats armor" is a very good general rule. But it isn't the whole story. You get significantly more momentum from increasing mass, wherein momentum is mass × velocity rather than mass × velocity × velocity that you see with energy. That is very important when considering how the velocity of the bullet changes when penetrating armor. A heavier bullet is much more able to continue traveling at a high velocity through resistance than a lighter bullet. Now, there are a lot of other factors, such as angle, materials, oscillation frequency of the bullet/where it is in that oscillation, and so on. But, all else being equal, .277 fury will penetrate armor and can be improved as needed whereas 5.56 can't reach the performance characteristics necessary. This is a really big deal, even if it's just within 100m. Being able to penetrate your enemy's armor is a big deal.
Fundamentally, it's the same question we get with tanks and piercing tank armor. Yes, carrying more, smaller shells is great. But it means nothing if you can't damage your enemy. If you need 10 direct hits to kill your enemy and they need 1 to kill you, it's gonna be a bad day for you. That's what we really have to think about.
So, the question becomes, if you can just sit in a fighting position and resupply at your leisure, does it matter if you can carry fewer rounds? If you can't penetrate your enemy's armor, does it matter how much ammo you have? And if you are able to kill your enemy easily, will you be more able to take a position or defend your position? How can you make it easier for a squad or platoon to produce casualties? And will those factors be important going forward?
Also, yeah, this is an essay, sorry about that. I love this topic and love thinking about it. I think it's pretty clear that this is a necessary change considering that 5.56 can't achieve the performance needed for LSCO and the importance of the machine gun in infantry tactics though.
@@Isometrix116 you can’t plan on being able to “sit in a fighting position, and resupply at your leisure”. That is not how wars have ever been won. They are won by maneuver warfare. Even in the largest trench fight in modern history, WWI, victory was achieved when one side was able to break through and maneuver on the enemy. There is a delicate balance between weight and capability when it comes to infantry weapon systems. Weight is much more of a factor for the reasons I previously stated. People are physically limited by what they can carry. By the logic you are going off of, we should just issue every one .50 BMG rifles. They can just hang out, and get resupplied at their leisure. .50 BMG will do a much better job defeating level 4 plates than 6.8x51. Of course that is silly. Resupply is much more difficult when you have a peer level enemy. WWII & Korea, logistics were the biggest challenges. There is a reason why after those wars, we started looking for lighter ammunition/weapons for infantry. Level 4 plates are designed to stop .30-06 AP rounds with hardened penetrators traveling at 2900 ft/s. The 6.8x51 drops below that threshold within 56m. Let’s say they have some new super penetrator, which doubles the range that it will penetrate level 4 plates. That is still not worth the costs in weight and ammunition loadout. Within those ranges, even if you have an enemy with body armor, the traditional failure to stop drill procedure is easily doable.
Like those replies weren't carefullly currated by command... Oh, and lets talk about the +4 pounds weight after rucking it for three days straight.
If carrying the same amount of ammo, there's gonna be another extra 7 lb just for ammo
Lug a 20lb Roman shield around in your left hand while wearing 40 lb of body armor or carry a 13lb pike around. It's just a tad heavier than the decked out M1 weighing 11lb.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, my friend
Mission is fucked if you have rug for 3 days.
Still less ammunition and more expensive ammunition could be cause for concern.
Despite longer Engagement ranges
+4lbs for the rifle, optic and suppressor. The ammo and mags weigh more too
Those criticisms are why I personally felt they should have gone with 6mm ARC. It provides near .308 performance out of a standard M4 size rifle, minimal loss of overall round count, and minimal increase in ammo weight. Aside from the machine gun variant I suspect the M7 will be a dud similar to the M14. We will see though.
yeah, M7 gives harder punch and further range but cost in larger recoil, weight and ammo capacity, and not saying common soldiers doesn't need to shoot further than 400m which makes it is unecessary, but M250 was a good choice to replace m249, as it has harder punch and further range, but only cost in minimal ammo capacity, it has lighter weight, and recoil is not that matter cuz machine gun always has help from bipod and M250 has specific recoil reducing mechanic
@@pandatanoao9384 thing is, the M7 comes down to the 250. It's really only there to compliment the 250. Most of a squad's firepower comes from the LMG. And for logistics purposes, the riflemen need to use the same round. Don't get why people can't figure this out
The M14 has its merrits. Its not for everybody sure, but where it shines, it shines well.
@@blueduck9409 That's more or less what I mean. It's not ideal as the primary service rifle but it will be excellent in a specialist role.
LOL, the 6MM ARC is nowhere close to the 308 in combat performance and even further away from the new 6.8. I'm no M7 or 6.8 fan but suggesting the 6MM ARC is a viable option is just silly. The 6MM needs a nice long barrel to reach it's advertised performance numbers, run it through a 16" barrel like the military uses and it's small margin over the old 5.56 starts to diminish. It's a neat cartridge for poking holes in paper at long range and maybe taking small game at short range but that's about it.
Interesting point on not being able to get on target as quickly as with the M4.
Usually with weight concerns my first and only though would be weighing the soldiers down and increasing fatigue, not actual combat efficiency
GOOD TRAINING!
The weight is an issue, but over time soldiers will get use to carrying an extra couple pounds
Sure, but those come hand-in-hand. On a long deployment, or a lengthy firefight...stuff gets progressively heavier. I don't mind admitting that even an 8 lb. (fully loaded/equipped) gun wears me out over an all-day shooting course. By the end of the day, it feels like it's 14 lbs, lol.
@@charleslennonbakergood training costs time and training facilities.
And continuous effort.
You can’t make every military air defense software specialist into an infantry monster.
And if you spent the money you save with the old caliber for more training… results with the old caliber might already be better.
@@HuskyOwner-bl1jfsure but you also need that anti IR coat with you soon, probably a drone remote control, that new EW gun, a tablet for your digital map to swiftly call in precise artillery fire, that new IR scope weighs a little more, and and and…
Every gram more needs to be worth it.
I think everyone's got it backwards. The real game changer is the XM250 LMG which is a quantum leap over the SAW and M240, however due to the new round in the LMG, Army wanted a rifle to pair with it for ammo compatibility to get the economy of scale in place to bring down ammo costs in the long run.
The Army never really cared about the practicality of the XM7 as their sights were set on the XM250 but as long as they want the 250, the M7 is staying.
I'm not ex-military or particularly knowledgeable about this stuff, but it seems to me that a huge determining factor on whether the rifle will be a success or failure depends on the kind of future combat that takes place. If future combat takes place across longer ranges, with enemies in body armor, maybe the extra weight of the rifle no longer matters. You won't really know this until the next conflict actually happens.
"at longer ranges, with enemies in body armor"
sure, but at a certain point snipers & artillery become the dominant threats
every infantryman with this rifle only makes sense against light arms engaging across large open distances with no support (afghanistan)
This is the only true answer right now. The next real war will show us whether this was a miraculously prescient decision that saves thousands of lives, or a massive and bloody boondoggle that gets thousands killed. Whether this rifle is effective will be determined by the enemy, not us. Who that enemy is, what equipment they're using, and where the conflict is taking place are the factors that will decide whether this is an amazing weapon or a deathtrap. And the US has very little say in those factors. As the saying goes, "the enemy gets a vote".
New CQB tactics will instruct the team, not to enter the room, but to go line abreast in the hall outside it. They will then shoot through the wall until it doesn’t exist. Then they will enter the room and inspect it. Rinse and repeat. Could get tricky for load bearing walls so one civil engineer will be attached to each team.
sweep and clear the wall first sarge?
The spicy round is actually more than 80kpsi. The hybrid civilian ammo is 80kpsi. SIG has confirmed that 6.8x51 hybrid is higher than that.
Another thing to consider is where the weight is located, if it's balanced well the extra 4lbs isn't a huge deal
Clown take
"The Imperium of Man's new lasgun can now punch through heretical heavy armor."
Hotshot Lasguns, capable of taking out the fabled Power Armored Space Marine, requires a power pack in the back and is mostly reserved for more elite and specialized units. The humble and regular flashlight is of course less powerful but doesn’t require a large backpack to power the thing. That and regular guardsman most prominent opponents lore wise are equivalent to them despite the popularity and constant glazing of the Space Marines by GW and the rest of the Warhammer 40K community.
@@edwademberpants2552 Cadian Kasrkins are well known to pack Hotshot Lasguns
@edwademberpants2552
No, canonically the most common enemy by far for the Imperial Guard are rebels and cultists. These usually use stubbers and mesh armor. Flak armor is immune to stubbers short of a heavy or hand cannon and mesh armor is useless against a lasgun. The vast majority of aliens are likewise much less advanced than the Guard. Meaning the average Guardsman is a nearly unstoppable juggernaut to the vast majority of his enemies.
@@edwademberpants2552 The M7 is lik twice as powerful as the typicl lasgun though...
If you prefer to run out of ammo 5 min into the fight, then this rifle is perfect for you
Love this channel! Can't wait for it to be on everyday
Glad you made the point that it's a Squad SYSTEM
As a former 11B . . . bigger, hotter round, heavier weapon, less ammo, more expensive. Sounds like a winner to me. Actually the new sight seems to be the real improvement.
What were the generals supposed to do when they got a report that the Russians possibly are working on body armor that could defeat 7.62 NATO AP? It's not like the Russians ever exaggerated their capabilities!
You might think the sensible course of action would be to replace the 7.62 NATO platforms in the squad while retaining the M4, and that Russians dying every day in Ukraine to far weaker rounds are proof that maybe the whole squad doesn't need a marksman rifle on steroids, but that's why those generals get paid far more than you did.
"Just don't get into cqb engagements"
Sure thing, Sir. Next time we're ordered to take a building or a trench, we'll just not do that instead. What an incredibly stupid way to address a problem. In modern warfare, adaptability is the most important aspect of any fireteam. I could understand giving specific units the M7 system, but you can't just ask us to never clear a building. Unless they plan to just decimate everything that stands with overwhelming artillery and airstrikes, i guess.
And the concern about maintenance is the biggest problem, imo. I still think the HK416, aka the M27 is superior. Easier to maintain and more powerful than the m4, even if it's not by much. They could just up the m27 to 7.62 if they're worried about stopping power.
I'm getting Vietnam vibes from these concerns. How well does it operate when dirty? What about mud, rain, and sand? How long does it take to clean? How reliable is tap rap bang with it? I'd rather have a shittier gun that works than a fancy futuristic gun that might not be able to perform.
50 years is the difference between the bi-plane in service and the F-15 in service and this could be a 50 year rifle. With drone and robotic technology ever growing, there could be armored battle bots in that time.
How reliable it is? It is just a piston AR. Mags look worse than P-Mag, seem to have no overinsertion stop, STANAG plague lives on. But otherwise it should be fine, if designed and manufactured correctly
i mean, with the m10 booker rolling out, we’re not really gonna be in cqb anymore. we’re not fighting an insurgency where we need to be door kickers to minimize civilian casualties. this is a near peer war, just send a 105mm towards the building and make a new door. cappy already said in a previous video that the army is moving away from cqb, and with the new programmable airburst rounds on the booker, they’ll just clear a trench for you.
Reminds me of when somebody had a "Designated Marksman" M14 boner when I was in Iraq, and some genius put a gang of them on our books, making us turn in our M4s to pack that ridiculous and fussy hog. At no point did it ever prove helpful during anything from Cordon & Search jobs to longer range Checkpoint operations, which was the rightful domain of our crew serves.
@@rampaginwalrus i thought a fully tricked out m27 is about the same weight as the spear, is it not? anyways, its not insurgency warfare anymore, with m10 bookers rolling off the production line why risk kicking in a door in a near peer war? theres no civilians to watch for collateral damage, just make a new door with a 105mm shell. cappy already was talking about in a previous video that the army is moving away from doorkicking. why up the m27 to 7.62? thats even more weight than just moving to the .277 fury, and you’ve still got the magazine capacity problem, but with an even heavier and inferior system
They should have gone with 6mm arc for primary
SPEAR 6.8 for DMs and MGs
Good luck getting combat support qualified. It was pulling teeth helping cooks, clerks and supply qualified on the M4. But it looks AWESOME! Wish I was still in. Great vid, love the content.
It being noticeably heavier and slower in CQB sounds like a major concern.
Sure, but what's funny is everyone likes to cite Ukraine and trench warfare as an example, yet in urban areas, cqb is often left to their special forces.
@@Avera9eWh1teShark6 But Rember only shock troops fight CQB rutialy in an assault troop dioes they've won already. Which in trench warfare range and supresstion is king which the m7 has 3x more then the m4.
And they must be thinking about distance like Ukraine or Russia ???
I remember some of the hyped positive early reports of the XM-25 too, so I'm gonna remain sceptical for now
I mean the xm 25 was scrapped because explosive bullets are a war crime. And the size and weight of its round are within ‘explosive bullet’ category rather than a propelled grenade.
And the XM8, troops were very possitive about it.
I mean, the Rangers couldn't get enough of it during actual combat. But then someone checked some rules again and realized "Hold up... We accidentally created a warcrime... How do we get rid of this thing?..."
@Registered_Simp
Which was stupid, as no one cares about war crimes done by your side, and there's nobody who can force US to care.
tbf the xm-25 wasn't scrapped bc infantry hated it. it was scrapped bc the explosive rounds it shot were (barely) small enough to count as exploding bullets, and direct hits with those goes against the geneva convention.
At $15.00 a round we could use Depleted Uranium rounds in the 5.56...Lighter weight, more rounds, better penetration, lower recoil.
Could do the same for the M14 and save billions of dollars.
$15.00 a round for now..
If the M7 and the M250 are accepted into production then economies of scale kick in. Also the US wouldn't need to manufacture both 5.56 and 7.62 anymore further simplifying logistics as you would only need 1 big bin of 1 ammo size instead of 2 smaller bins of 2 different sizes.
@@g3nesisprime183Also more effective round less rounds needed
@@g3nesisprime183 Every time a military has tried that in the past it has failed.
Every. Single. Time.
@@gratefulguy4130 Truth. So many have tried a one-size-fits-all approach only to realize it doesn't work. Definition of insanity
Brother, have fun with the cosplay thing! It is okay to have fun! Great video by the way, and glad you addressed the [likely] bias of the sources for the video. Great presentation as always, thank you!
Everyone in WW1 wanted to avoid trench warfare too. Conditions on the battle field, technology and your enemy all get a say in how you have to fight.
Also the rifle has a frost bite problems that the m4 doesn't in the arctic.
The big factor with WW1 was that communications and transport technology hadn’t reached the point where mobile warfare was possible, as commanders would be completely in the dark once an engagement started because there were no portable radios and telephone lines would get ripped up by artillery fire, while soldiers could and would outrun their logistics and their artillery cover, and artillery had to operate off of preset plans, without knowing if they’re having the right effect.
Nowadays, America is banking on being able to rely on airpower to prevent the sort of deadlock that’s going on in Ukraine, as neither side there has truly established air superiority. That could be a bit of a gamble, but that’s what they treat as a winning formula.
What frost problems specifically?
@jason200912 it gives soldiers blebs(stage before frostbite) through their insulated gloves, specifically their support hand. The M4, M249 and M240 do not have this problem
@@grantfitz2047 because of this fashionable long aluminum handguard?
@@beibotanov This is why I have MLOK covers on all my rifles and why I have started to prefer plastic grips on my pistols
Picking up cold metal SUUUUUUUUUCKS (I'm sure hot metal sucks just as much but I don't experience that as much as cold). The aluminum is great for the accuracy (now my barrel is free floated) but terrible for comfort.
I’m gunna be honest. I think it’s more likely the vehicles they’re thinking about would be Chinese amphibious vehicles, which is what would be used in Taiwan.
The AP capabilities of the 6.8mm will only be a little higher than the 7.62 NATO round. Basically higher sectional density and velocity. All they have to do is add a tiny bit more armor
@@Nathan-jh1ho the ap capabilities are unknown as is the actual bullets material composition. Obviously they could add more armor but there’s only so much you. Can add before your amphibious vehicle is no longer amphibious or slow enough to be a very easy target. Amphibious vehicles have to play by different rules then normal 100% ground based vehicles.
@@Nathan-jh1ho You are incorrect.
I am more cynical and think it is for more "domestic" use.
@@BodilyFunction BMP3 is amphibious. No 6,8mm penetrates it.
Sorry that your previous video got taken down captain Cappy 😢 but loved your video on the XM-7 rifle and please keep up the great work yo. 😎👍
to be honest, people really did not enjoy the last video right off the bat it got a lot of negative feedback. so I deleted it. my main goal with the channel is to produce content that you guys like and find to a positive thing that is valuable to you. all the comments and everything on that video made me realize that was not really the right place for a video like that. I wanted it to bring people together but it was more division instead. someday I'll post things like that on a separate channel so as to keep this mostly not about politics , sorry for the rant
@@Taskandpurpose it's understandable and even though I'm not a big fan of trump it's still necessary to have a civilize debate of both parties but please keep up the great work as regardless. 👍
@@Taskandpurpose IMO good or bad, it's a piece of information published. It might be bad now, it might be viewed in a different light later...
@JohnRambo-zz6gy I understand what you're saying but its not about caving to the mob in this instance. For example, it would be pretty selfish of me to post a bunch of videos that no one else found interesting, or if I suddenly started posting videos of me cooking pancakes or me doing make up tutorials. a video of trumps foreign policy was too off topic for this channel. I'll cover those things on a separate channel in the future though because I do want to talk about those topics in the future
What was the vid about?@Taskandpurpose
I said from the beginning that this is a great rifle and good direction to go. Many were against it, but I think with time they’ll come around esp after seeing it’s performance.
@168-180grs. The tungsten 7.62 ap ammo get the job done without the recoil and is readily available to all of NATO.
One of the big think tank imagined issues that this new round spawned from is that there isn't enough US accessible tungsten to make enough to deal with an army worth of cheap steel body armo.
@@kanrakucheese6.8 steel core isn't gonna be much better at AP than 7.62 NATO with a steel core
7.62 doesn't do well in 13 inch barrels. Military prefers carbine length rifles. So, unless you go bullpup, you will need very high chamber pressure and fast burning power to get that kind of performance just like the 6.8 already does.
You want your men to love it, your friends to want it & your enemies to fear it.
Funny thing in WW2 Eastern front, many thought their enemies SMG was better and would capture them to use them.
Honestly, i think people are slightly "off" you talk about penetrating light armored vehicles and such. but consider... at ranges beyond 100 yards a 5.56 may not always go through a car door... at 200 yards the weapons lost almost half its energy... at 300 yards its at about 550 lbs of force.
These spicy rounds... larger, heavier... will rip up tacticals at much longer ranges. Many of the forces fighting now are using pickup trucks with heavy machine-guns, 23mm cannons and such mounted on them, able to engage well outside of the range of normal 5.56...
these rounds will let troops disable or kill these vehicles or their crews at ranges where they believe they would have the advantage.
Correct, but thinking it will go through 10mm of steel at an angle of lets say, 30 degrees, already makes it effectively 20mm, at any angle above 30 degrees you will need much much larger rounds.
@@singular9 yep, but again, i'm not talking about going through and armored vehicle at 400 yards, i'm talking about doing enough damage to effectively stop a pickup truck at 400 yards :) Which is what the infantry actually, really does need.
@@jenniferstewarts4851 Thats why XM250.
You can already kill the crew in a pickup if you aim for the crew/windows, instead of through the doors.
(so putting the optic on M4s would already suffice)
Sure, the new gun would surprise those crew - at first.
But how many days does it take for the enemy to wisen up, and adjust their behavior?
Looking at WW2, Korea, Vietnam, and Afghanistan - we _always_ see the enemy adapt _unpleasantly quickly._
The only times they didn't, was when the tech gap was _such_ a wide _chasm,_ that it didn't matter what they tried to change (Gulf War, but sadly not even Afghanistan). And a fast war definitely helps too, but as Russia and Ukraine show (and even Afghanistan fwiw), no halfway-near-peer is gonna crumble _that_ fast.
So China certainly won't.
I think one mistake that's being made by a lot of people is focusing on what this one weapon could do, while any military is really a system-of-systems.
It's not about whether your rifle can stop a tactical, but whether your combined arms toolkit can.
And everything is a balance of compromises...
I fear that the Chinese might be smart enough to realize that, if American rifles can pierce body armor, they should just never wear it.
That would make their troops faster and less fatigued (or carrying more ammo instead). And the Chinese military could stop wasting money on body armor and get more drones instead.
This would turn the US advantage into a disadvantage, especially on a macro scale.
You'd just be spending more money to make your opponent spend less money... 😢
I retired in 2018 and missed the transition. I think the power the new rifle offers is great. However, consider combat load 140 rounds to 220 rounds. If your supply lines are cut or completely destroyed, you only have what is on you.
Then quit doing spray and pray and make your rounds count.
PS: I got out in 1991,
Too many reviewers keep comparing 6.8x51 to 5.56x45. Of course it does better, its a much larger cartridge! 6.8 needs to be predominately compared to 7.62x51. This would be a more honest comparison to range, recoil, pentration, and most importantly ammo capacity
Well I'll give it to you straight. The 6.8 is better in just about every way. Higher chamber pressure by about 20,000psi. Better bullet design, and it is slightly more compact.
There’s a reason, and that’s because the round is replacing the 5.56x45 not the 7.62x51. Comparing the 6.8 to the 7.62 isn’t really meaningful for the army other than giving a relatively good idea of how the round performs from an objective view. However the round is being compared to the 5.56 because that’s the round it’s replacing meaning soldiers will be carrying this over the 5.56 so having a direct comparison on how much more lethal the soldier will be with the 6.8 over the 5.56 is much more relative to the army and their decision to adopt the round
And this is the amusing part. The hilarity of "it's more powerful..."...so was the .308 and we still ditched it. We're reintroducing the same issues we had previously.
The problem is 7.62 isn’t the current caliber being used by the majority of the us military and so its comparison is less meaningful in terms of decision making and drawback comparison.
I think it’s valid because that’s the ammo it should replace.
But “shots per gram” is underestimated.
20 shots in a magazine or 30 shots can mage a huge difference, especially. For soldiers that aren’t infantry gods.
Really can't stress enough the importance of the "system." We tend to fixate on the rifles when it's really going to be the SAW that does most of the work. And that XM250 is a mean fuckin' SAW.
it's the weak point of the System actually. Only they didn't realise it yet.
Because the US amy can't get over the fact that the belt fed weapon is a CREW SERVED WEAPON. In their concept the MG gunner must carry the gun, ammo and all needed for it to work.
So the XM250 doesn't have a quick exchange barrel, because the 400 rounds max the gunner can carry are not enough to require it. And it has not an attachment for the tripod, because none is going to carry a tripod.
Unfortunately, while any GPMG can provide accurate fire at over 1km distance from a tripod, no GPMG or SAW can hit anything at 800m without it, because the burst is too disperse.
So the XM250 is a way to be outranged always, and outgunned in short time.
I think the standard for US equipment needs to fulfill a certain *_R.R.R._* Requirement:
Rugged
Robust
Reliable
Something that can easily handle as many different kinds of situational context as possible, as foolproof as possible, whilst still being both competent for its job and easy enough for its handler to work with for maximum effect, no matter how rough and tumble things get.
I’m envisioning something like a Vickers… Something that can operate through sun and storm, day and night, with only the barest minimum of odds and ends needed to keep it going.
I remember back in 1969 in Marine Corps boot camp we were issued M-14 rifles. When we got to ITR (Individual Training Regiment) we were issued M-16s we looked at them as toys hence the nickname Matty Mattel wishing we had our M-14s back but we got used to the lighter weight and select fire lever. Besides we didn't have choice.
There are a 2 problems with this whole idea that yet have not been solved in any way:
1. Armor can already stop this there is even armor that can stop much more powerful rounds.
2. To engage a target at longer distance you need to see them before they come closer.
1. near peers arent adopting that armor, this can penetrate level 4 plates i hear. also, that armor is heavy as fuck that you’re referring to.
2. this has been solved. with improved ISR and better and more available thermals to infantry and mechanized squads
1. It's fucking heavy, especially in the front
I cant imagine going into battle with 10 rounds less per magazine no matter how strong the round is.
Maybe this is what the Woke Generals want to lose and then let the Air Force come in with F 22 since the AIR Force Generals just Retired all A10
What about 5?
I wish we could get the questionnaire that troops fill out before it gets censored into oblivion and released to public XD
I'm curious if they ever fixed the issue with over inserting the magazine. I remember Brandon Herrera and Grantham having an issue with that a year or so ago.
I predict that if the XM7, if kept at all, it’ll be relegated to a DMR due to it’s weight, size, and recoil.
The XM250 has a better chance of sticking, that thing looks fantastic. However I think if either is fully adopted, they’ll likely be chambered in 7.62 rather than 6.8. That new ammo has a laundry list of negatives and only one real positive.
It’s INSANELY expensive
It isn’t a NATO cartridge so our friends won’t have it and we won’t have near enough of it.
You can also buy 277 Fury (same dimensions as the 6.8 Common Cartridge Military Round) as a recreational cartridge for about $1.30 a round. Using a 55,000 psi bras case, let alone a 62,000 psi military brass case instead of that fancy 80,000 psi 3 piece case your armor piercing capability is going to drop. A LOT.
Would a standard brass case 277 Fury still be much MUCH better than 5.56 for armor penetration? Hell yeah! 5.56 NATO M855 was 1800 Joules energy, Retail 277 Fury in standard 55,000 psi brass cartridges is more like 2850 Joules, and M80 7.62 NATO is about 3450 Joules. So even in a retail cartridge the 277 Fury is over 50% more smack than an M855.
Upgrading that pressure from a standard retail round by 10% to the same 60,000 ish PSI range that is used in the 7.62 NATO and 5.56 NATO would see the 277 Fury punching out in excess of 3100 Joules. But with better Ballistic Coefficients and better Sectional Density than the 7.62.
Even a cheaper standard brass case 277 looks like a good option.
That is still gonna be more than enough for current Chinese or Russian body armour, but I 'd have doubts on it penetrating BTR's and the like without that 80,000 PSI case and some fancy teflon and pentatrator designs.
@@AndyViant so you explained THE ONE positive attribute I mentioned in my comment 😂. You went a little too far into the weeds for a TH-cam comment but hey, it was accurate information.
Obviously 6.8 / 2.77 is ballistically superior to ANY 5.56 loading. But $1.30-$1.50 a round is still nearly double the price per round of 5.56 and probably 35-40% more than 7.62 NATO. Not to mention you didn’t rebut the point of it not being in NATO inventory. And it will take a hella long time to produce a stockpile that comes close to resembling our 5.56 or 7.62 stockpiles. The logistical issues are by far the biggest.
There’s also another element that was briefly touched on in the video and that was close quarter fights. The XM7 is just too big and heavy.
And lastly,qualifications are going to drop like rocks. I watched MOST “soldiers” for years that could barely qualify with M4s. You think they’re gonna shoot better with a gun that’s 4-5 lbs heavier with significantly more recoil?
This just isn’t a good choice for a standard issue rifle. These were the entire reasons we left the M14 and FAL full sized battle rifles for the intermediate cartridge firing assault rifles like the M16.
@@miletello1 agreed. Something more like the 6.8 SPC or the 6.5 Grendel would be better.
Both were specifically designed to be in that intermediate range between 7.62x51 and 5.56x45, outperform the 5.56 by significant margins, and in the 6.5 Grendel even outdo 7.62 in armour penetration at 1000m. Both rounds outperform the 5.56 by over 40% at closer ranges while still being compatible with the overall M4/M16/AR platforms, although obviously barrels and bolt faces need to be changed.
Interestingly with all of this, the caliber ranges we're talking about happen to closely match a proposed .276 Enfield as proposed and Trialled by the British ion 1913, and then the post WWII .280 British that was an unsuccessful competitor to the 7.62x51 NATO.
@@AndyViant 😂 funny you mention the .280 round. That is what the FAL was supposed to be chambered for until Uncle Sam bullied everyone into .308. You’re spot on.
Also I can’t agree more about 6.8 SPC. I can’t wrap my head around why that round never took off. It’s literally the perfect solution to the listed problems. If we had funded that round when it was introduced, we’d have a hell of a stockpile by now. And then it’d be easier to convince NATO to pick it up.
All very good points sir.
@@miletello1 Thanks for the positive feedback. These were my feelings at first but I made sure I cross checked the energy and penetration data.
Who knew that those canny Swedes were in the right all along. 6.5x55 or 6.5 Swedish being smack in that zone (actually being a .264 or 6.7mm projectile). Great accuracy, high sectional density, good penetration all come standard from a long projectile middle caliber. And around 3000 J of energy, too, of course.
Still going strong despite being introduced in 1894.
What are they going to say? They are the first to try it.
Pretty certain higher ups didn't pick soldiers that are known to speak freely.
Everyone will always say nice things about a new shiny toy they may be issued/provided with.
Fun fact, the pressure 3 miles deep in the ocean is about 7,100 psi. We gonna need a deeper ocean to get to 80kpsi.
Commander is only saying the weight isn't an issue cause he's not gonna have to carry it in the field