I was about to say that you have MK brain, until I realized that most other modern fighting games have actually rolled back a lot of this stuff. GG Strive has a dash button, and SF6 actually patched in the ability to drive rush cancel by tapping parry instead of having to double tap forward. SF6's parry is very comparable to a block button in some ways, and lots of newer fighting games are going out of their way to make general execution more accessible while leaving in some hard stuff for players that enjoy having it. The special and super cancel windows in GG Strive in particular are comedically large, lasting basically the entire length of every move. Down 1's do seem uniquely good in MK, since they're universally the fastest option, they're evasive, and they have decent range. Even though similar moves are often a bit more rewarding in other fighting games, they're also generally either less evasive and/or they're not as large, so they're usually easier to counter-hit or whiff punish. Makes them feel like more of a commitment. hey man sometimes you gotta flip ur stance
dude flipstance in neutral ir when held down can stay the same or even be taunts like third strike, but when you hold forward or back it can make you dash
Flipstance is supposed to be used as a fake out. Like you move and your opponent reacts, then you attempt to punish assuming you didn’t just eat the attack for stance switching ? Idk hahah
most idiot thing in fighting games is me labing for hours straight just to mash randomly in a real fight as if its the first time im ever touching a controller
And you drench your controller in sweat and go from a chill dude to your dad yelling about politics at the TV screen, instantly. Yeah, I've been there. It's so hard to keep your cool, when fighting a real person. That's why the pros are pros, I guess.
Not a fighting game, but I can't tell you the amount of times I accidentally thrown myself from a roof in Cyberpunk 2077 just because I wanted to move slightly closer to the edge
Yeees, cause the double-tap nonsense is in Cyberpunk too, and you can't unbind it, which is fucking mental. I knew there was a non-fighting game that had this and kept tryna remember which one it was; thank you.
@ exactly. Some of them… the physics just don’t add up. The one poke you shown here was infamous in my mind, lol. Try that in real life and you will just fall. I’m a firm believer that 3-D fighters need martial artists in mo-cap. Tekken’s story sucks; but the martial arts is good. MK’s story is lightyears better (similar to a rated R series on STARZ) but sometimes the martial arts fail because of laziness
@@johnnysilvercloud4470 I wouldn't say anything close to "light years better", MK story modes are asinine, although I *am* hearing more and more how Tekken is the king of autistic stories. That's why I showed that Kitana poke - if you pause it as she 'strikes', it looks like falling, shitting, and doing the Russian dance at the same time. It doesn't make sense. Even in a cartoon, it doesn't make sense.
@@CynicalWarlock if you began narrating commentary of Tekken’s ridiculous story, it would be hilarious. Tekken only center’s Mishima-related characters, hard. Everyone else is joke-jobber characters. You have a Jackie Chan super cop character… disrespected. A Bruce Lee homage character… joke-ass jobber. Paul Phoenix, original Kazuya rival…. Jobber. Nina, a blonde assassin… jobber. They just don’t know what to with their cast. At all. I kinda stopped playing, and champion MK and MK lore over Tekken… even though MK 1’s story is bonkers and Jax and Sonya aren’t fully playable.
The entire point of Back Block is the allow for the possibility of cross-ups, which is a fundamental mix-up tactic in 2D Fighting Games (and Tekken). If you can block in all directions with a single button then it removes this strategy and makes defensive too easy. Thats why most 2D fighters dont have block buttons because it a bad design choice for that sub-genre, Mortal Kombat & Injustice is the only 2D fighters with block buttons. 3D fighters can have a block button because the added dimension means you aren't completely safe even when blocking since there's a different way to cross you up, same with Platform Fighters like Smash Bros
Granblue has both ways of blocking. No downside to either form as there’s rarely crossups iirc. And hell, even Sf6 has a pseudo block button with its parry and it works fine.
1.Dash macros alongside double tap dashes aren't too uncommon but they can sometimes significantly impact defense in games with frame 1 invuln backdashes 2.B2B reduces strategies like "yolo flying kicks" and crossup mix doesn't always include jump ins, I can definitely see the depth just general left/rights can add that give up the corner, need a midscreen knockdown, have more unique tells opposed to high/lows, forcing a reverse input special on wakeup, etc. I think one of the reasons devs refrain from adding both control schemes in a game is the fact that you'll have to eventually learn both regardless to better defend in situations where one is better than the other turning it potentially more complicated in the long run 3.I don't think a character's basic gameplan should usually be locked behind a high difficulty curve but there's a lot of people who enjoy the aspect of relatively absurd execution in characters, hitting 1f links and such rarely get old 4.Mk11 poke meta was inexcusable you're right lmao Interesting video, some of these takes usually quickly get thrown under scrub takes or whatever but I think they are genuinely valid, I personally find block button games usually come pre equipped with more expressive movement and crossups and proximity block in back 2 block games usually suck. Vae Victis
Oh, a Legacy of Kain buff.🤜🤛 Great assessment, and you're right about games with block buttons having more ample/expressive movement - that's something the B2B crowd either neglect to mention or log it as a con, when it arguably makes the game more enjoyable to watch in most cases, and that's certainly true for MK. Having both B2B and a block button as options doesn't make much sense cause the block button is objectively easier, so eventually, everyone would just end up using that one; however, there *is* one middle option here, which is having a block button but not making your character turn around automatically when crossed up - that way, you still have to press an extra button to turn and not get hit. I think some of the older fighting games had that. Tough execution is something I am, once again, all for, as long as the payoff is worth it; something like Nimble Reptile made sense to be super-high execution, and there's a great deal of reference and excitement when you see someone pull off a high level combo like that. The problem is that a big chunk of MKX's cast ended up being able to get the same damage for way less hassle, which made you feel stupid for specializing in Nimble Reptile, no I'm not speaking from experience, why would you ask that? Anyway, great points all round. Vae Victis.💪
4: People love The Stick and Buttons. Things have ALWAYS been like this. They dont want things easier. They want the skill ceiling to still be too high for anyone other than those who dedicate days worth of time into those games. While at the same time wanting regular people to dedicate to getting good like crazy if they even wanna touch a tournament, and anytime things are easier people throw a fit. 3: As a Mortal Kombat player with friends who play every other Fighting game. They still make fun of me for the fact Block Button exists. Cause who needs these over +20 year old REGULAR controllers when you can use a Stick and buttons or JUST buttons to play games to replicate the feeling of being at an arcade which many younger people getting into fighting games dont even have 3 hours of experience playing fighting games in an arcade. 2: Mortal Kombat is Quirky its all about timing woah how fun. This is why I dont lab and just stay ass at fighting games. I dont wanna learn the muscle memory of the half second where I put down the controller and lay my head down while I wait for the character to land into the range where I can continue the combo just for an extra 4-10% 1: No fighting game is safe from spamming low pokes. It came free with your fucking purchase. When Im losing/winning in MK against friends I just spam low pokes cause whats safer and more guaranteed than landing at least one of these. If they make the hit box fucking impossible to land unless youre pressing your face against the characters crotch or make the knockback ridiculous with the damage being complete ass unless if in the corner then that MIGHT be a decent change? But this is all just coming out of a sleep deprived mf commenting a one page essay on a Fighting game video.
Imagine defeating an opponent by crouching close enough to smell their wiener and slapping their nuts, while the camera goes into Zack Snyder slow-motion mode. Oh wait, you don't have to imagine it, that's how most matches end. Sounds like most of this stuff comes down to a bunch of dinosaurs gatekeeping the entire genre.
One of my pet peeves in Fighting Games are Zoners, for one, they are pretentious enough to not call their spamming AS spamming. Two, the speed of their projectiles is to fast for you to block, and they still do cheap damage anyway, and three they make the games boring to watch and haven't been hugged as a kid.
Zoning has its charm, but yeah, you need to go through a lotta frustration to get it. A lotta zoning does devolve into spamming, you do make a massive point there, and FGC people will often get too pretentious to acknowledge that. Dodging/blocking projectiles can be massively improved with practice and learning to predict a player's intentions. Not getting hugged as a kid, there's not fix for that.
Poking deserves its number 1 spot in the most idiot things in fighting games. And yes they look stupid and so uncool because it just looks like the opponents are slapping each other's balls around rather than fighting each other to the death. If I am being very generous, Sindel's d3 in MK1 looks ok I guess for a poke, but that's being generous.
They're worth getting good at, but it is tough to get to that point yeah. Worst feeling in the world is investing all that time (and money) into a game, then quitting.
I liked this video, it kept a premise that was pretty much just complaining light and fun by having plenty of funny jokes. Also the character difficulty comment made me think of Dragonball FighterZ, as they have a good and bad example of high difficulty characters, Hit is really strange and hard to play because his powers are so different from everybody else’s, but against somebody who’s mastered him it’s near impossible to know how to defend yourself, while Master Roshi is the only character who can’t fly and has to use awkward jumping or flinging yourself around by shooting beams backwards, and his quirky special moves just don’t offer enough sauce to justify it.
Friends always looked at me weird when I said I hated fighting hit the most but man I made it to angel rank while still not knowing how to block against the mofo lol dude is a menace
I play Master Roshi. His movement implications requires you to understand how the game work fundamentally. His leaps and reverse Kamehameha are better than regular Super Dash in alot of situations. Superdash reflects Ki Blasts and is a hard commit action. Because of both of these things, characters with 5S ki blasts can cancel them into 2H because the game counts reflecting as interaction, thus giving it a cancellable state. Leap does not reflect ki blast, it passes through. Turns 5S Ki Blasts, which are usually safe and non committal, into extremely punishable as they can't cancel into an anti air. Being able to control Reverse Kame, also lets you safely punish from a distance without having to approach. Which makes it harder to anti air because Roshi doesn't have to go towards his opponent. I promise, him not having Superdash and float is NOT a problem
@ I didn’t claim they made him bad, I claimed they made him difficult to use… There are other factors for why he’s typically near the bottom of the tier list
To answer Double Tap to Dash and Back to Block: This design comes from when a Street Fighter game designer wanted Six Buttons on the cabinet instead of the usual 2-3. It was approved but to avoid people being scared by it, all the 6 buttons do the same thing: Attack This is why instead of a block button or a jump button, they moved it to the Joystick. And it's been the same ever since. The only 2D arcade era game to add a block button and a run button is Mortal Kombat.
For the difficult execution, that's not always the developer's fault. They often do mean for players to use simpler "dial in" combos. Its the players who constantly seek to optimize combos by often using methods the developer's didn't expect. Like ya, I know combos themselves in SF2 and roll canceling in CvS2 were not intended features, but you cant tell me that Namco meant to purposely add micro-dashes (and I know you love double tapping forward for dashes) to the most optimal combos in Tekken
Yeah I should've mentioned that, but I didn't want to get into the weeds too much. Devs and QA do their best to test the possibilities, but it doesn't compare to what the community goes on to do with the game, so yeah, they don't deliberately make optimal combos that difficult, it's just a result of people pushing the envelope as much as possible. But my main point of contention remains arbitrary things, timings, things like that.
I think the only fighting games I've seen actually have a dash button are the official Touhou fighting games (besides the 4th game for some reason; it wanted to be special I guess), and in the 5th and 6th games it also doubles as a block button if you're not moving, though it drains your spirit (the resource used for regular projectiles and special moves) and has a lot more pushback compared to regular blocking. The games do still have double-tapping for dashing as an option though, with the first three games giving you longer dashes if you use the dash button, and for the 2nd and 3rd games you actually need to double-tap for air dashes, since using the dash button in mid-air instead triggers flight, which is like an air dash but you can turn during it and it uses spirit. I think super jumps can also be used with the dash button instead of needing to crouch then jump, and it lets you do jumps out of dash, plus some other game-specific uses like it being part of the command to pull off your super in the 1st game, or being used for a mechanic to help escape blockstrings in the 2nd & 3rd games
Now that's more like it - I mean it gets a bit messy with the air controls - but great design, overall. Make both single-button and double-tap dashing options, which I should've mentioned in the video.
I believe it's better to have dashing and blocking on the directionals as it separates movement from attacking. Directionals for movement and buttons for attacks. If you put movement in buttons then it's more confusion or mental stack. Think about how difficult combos that use command runs are even if it is just tapping two buttons. Plus making directionals do a lot of actions emphasizes the spatial maneuvering nature of fighting games and also complements motion inputs well. Also strict timing on combos is more a result of how flexible and precise the attacks are. Think about the difference in sf6 between rekkas and attacks. Look at how many options these differences afford. Making combos is like an artform do you want to remove creativity? Also sf6 added a link leniency window. Also less total moves are links. Usually high risk high reward moves like drive rush overhead. As far as pokes go. I can see how it's frustrating to have moves that don't cancel into specials. That is why I like sf6 and drive rush cancel. Pokes that just do damage but don't start combos can be a bit annoying. But in games where that is true, pokes are not mainly to do damage. They are there to force the other player to change block stance and not block the same way the entire time. I like to think of pokes as kinda like enhanced chip damage. Also a big counterplay to pokes is armor or invincible moves. You punish your opponent for spamming by hitting them with a powerful move (although it may cost meter or have other risks.) this is part of conditioning strategy. Your goal is to make your opponent want to avoid spamming and behave in a way beneficial to your own game plan. Also I don't play mk and I'm not sure if many games have this but armored stance into overhead or any move that hits crouches is very good. If your character has such a move you will have a better time. This form of character cast asymmetry is what adds to the beauty of fighting games.
No offense, but keeping all movement tied to the move buttons/stick is arbitrary and overcomplicates inputs for the sake of conserving the 1 extra brain cell it would take to learn a more ample control scheme (which I guess is one too many braincells for some). To play devil's advocate, the simplicity of this kind of scheme *is* what made standard console controllers endure for as long as they have, but it also has lots of arbitrary limitations, like forcing your thumbs to do 90% of the work. And pros can pro using a simple controller just fine, so there ya go. I'm not saying this is some fundamental flaw in fighting game controls, I'm just saying there's plenty of room for improvement.
I totally disagree with the back block deal. I mean, blocking holding down the back button opens mixups and punishes defensive players making them lose presion and cornering themselves at the same time. However, not having a dash button is BS. I never noticed how deep I was into this genre until I was teaching my younger sibling how to make an air dash in GGAC+R and they couldn't do what I did with no problem
You get the same mixup options on a block button, the only real difference is, once again, crossover attacks which, I personally wouldn't make jumping too big a part of a fighting game. Maybe if there are games that offer really quick dashes that switch sides, then you could argue a little more for back-blocking, I suppose. I too have plenty examples of tryna teach people fighting games and hitting these speedbumps - it's not even that you can't do all the inputs, but crowding you out with so many of them takes away mental bandwidth, bit by bit, that could otherwise be spent on the actual fight.
@CynicalWarlock The key difference between having a block button en blocking holding down it's the amount of presión you give up in order to defend. In a game like smash for example, using the shield it's an overpowered option since you don't give up any presion, that's why I'm that game you need a good grab in order to be somewhat good (however, in a game like smash I agree it would be BS to block holding back, i use it a as example because it's easy to see in game like that)
This same thing happens (to a lesser extent) in the MK franchise. Having a block button makes that option too much OP for having no real downside, you could be blocking all day with no mayor problem And that fundamental aspect it's something I don't like, it makes the games that use it too defensive
@@DiegoPerez-mg3kz Not sure where people get this idea that blocking makes you safe - it's the same function. Especially in a game like MK, turtling is not and never has been a problem; sitting there blocking is a surefire way to lose the round. And between lows, overheads, command grabs, hard-to-blockable setups, heavy zoning and heavy pressure, blocking definitely does *not* make you safe, nor does anyone want to actually block. That's partly why people hated MK11 so much, cause they took out most of these offensive options and turned the game into a simplistic strike-throw affair. Perhaps offense is not as potent in other fighting games? That would explain people's reticence towards a block button.
Double tap to dash is fine, in mk stance change button is reserved for special characters and while someone may think it is a waste for "normal" characters and there may be better ways to implement it, it works and it's fine really. Back blocking in my opinion has always been idiotic and I played SF and KOF games as a kid, just like the double tap to dash it's more of "fighting game DNA kind of thing" and it works and it's a matter of getting used to. Now for the real reason I'm commenting, you are wrong about pokes in mk, in M1K for example a d1 typicaly your fastest move is -8 on block, which means you can punish it with your 7 frame d1 and then jail the hit with a string typically a 7 frame standing 1 (which is a high but they cannot duck, armor, poke, their only option is to block or they get hit, why? because of framedata, a d1 on hit has enough advantage that you can follow up with a 7 frame high). Ofc some d1's are hard to punish or not punisheable depending on the character, but you can still take your turn back with a 14 frame mid right after for example (simple match they have to recover for 8 frames after the poke was blocked and still do a 7 frame poke, this means you have 15 frames to do something), if they try to do another d1 right after they will get hit, so they have to block, "oh but my mid is too slow and my d1 is so short it doesn't punish what do I do????" you can backdash and go for your mid to whiff punish it. All of this to say that double poking ON BLOCK is idiotic, it doesn't work and only does so if you don't know fundamentals, and there's multiple ways someone who attempts it can suffer for it, there are characters who thrive on poke special cancels, but that's a mindgame that 1- doesn't combo, 2-usually unsafe, 3-matchup dependant, a mindgame that is fair to be played and there's no use complaining about it. what you said about going for a high against a poke on block, depends on how good your 7 frame standing move is (if you even have one), and if the poke or any -8/-7 move doesn't have any kind of pushback or is long range, in that case you can definitely jail (or punish depending on the move). There is counterplay and you won't see a high level match consisting of back and forth pokes, I do agree that in older games it was more of an issue since they were all safe, so you had to jail or just backdash and because of the reasons I mentioned earlier about the range of the chracters moves, poking back and forth was indeed more common, not an issue with mk1 though. yap wall completed.
It's the same equation: whether you do a 7-frame standing 1 to punish a -8 poke, or you do a 14-frame mid to punish -8 poke recovery + another 7 frame poke, the result is still a 1-frame differential/window. It's just as finnicky and unreliable in a less-than-stellar-ping setting.
Thinking on it, iirc the original flip stance in the 3D era actually changed styles for characters so you could use different moves, although once the NRS era came around they stopped that, even though certain characterr do technically have extra styles/stances, Again I don't know why they have the chance to do it... again but don't, and would rather you use 3 buttons instead of just using the original intended button.
It's just a relic, yeah; I don't even know why it's in there, I doubt they still use anything - engine, assets - from the 3D era, so there's a million other things they could do with that button that would be better, including doing nothing.
There is skill in the Dash Mechanic in knowing when to use it and when to not use it. It makes the difference in punishing an opponent you tries to catch you with an attack that you can dash out of range of it, or also the player to play a mind game in baiting an opponent to throw out a move they can back away from quickly. having it tied to tapping twice is up to you the player to learn to discipline yourself to not tap twice that much. It is a valuable tool in playing the neutral. In MK it serves the same purpose, but also serves the purpose of allowing combo extensions to net higher damage output. Lastly it is useful in MK BC of the Dash Blocking ability. This lets you rush in and keep yourself safe and it also is used in a skill known as wave dashing which allows you to move in far faster than a basic walk in. Flip Stance does now have a purpose in MK as it now is used my several characters to accomplish special abilities they have such as, Nitara's flight.
Perhaps I was misunderstood - I never once said I have anything against dashing itself (quite the contrary), just the way you execute the command. All your arguments justify dashing, none of them justify double-tapping to perform dashing. Being disciplined enough to double-tap properly isn't the issue, the issue is double-tapping anything is objectively more cumbersome than single-tapping a dedicated button, for no reason. You yourself indirectly acknowledge the importance of smooth controls when you point out how important baiting out moves or just reacting with a dash/backdash quickly enough - double-tapping lengthens that reaction time. I mentioned wave dashing, by the way - you can perform that just as easily with a dedicated dash button, the thing works the same way.
@@CynicalWarlock OK I understand, however, when you have a controller where all buttons are used it creates a difficulty to fully dedicate a whole button to a Dash. I understand that the Stance Flip exists, however that button is utilized with multiple characters that carry special properties (esp in MK1). This would require to try and map this control to Dashing and make it also work for those special properties, some of which could conflict with the use of the mechanics. It is smoother to double tap for a dash than to use a dedicated button BC it also makes the movement smoother to execute. Consider this you have to poke with a far poke (usually this is a D4), if it lands unblocked, you will need to dash in to keep pressure going and on top of that you may have to use your Kameo button to aid in that, while simultaneously pressing a 3rd button to dash in. It is far more efficient and easier to double tap the Forward input rather than trying manage pressing 3 to four buttons consecutively to accomplish the task of dashing in to keep pressure up on your opponent or to bait them. Also if you were to say use the analog sticks in some way that might make the mechanic even more awkward and clumsy to execute. Then we have to consider the factor you did not mention, the use of controllers outside the standard PS5/XBox Control pad. With a Fight Stick you now have a Control Stick and a 8 button layout and no Analog sticks at all. With MK you are forced to hold a block button for blocking, so in the scenario I gave, you now have to hold a stick down, press D4, Press Dash, input a string to pressure, Use a Kameo attack, and then hold block. This would be very awkward to execute as well BC you only have your right hand to make all these inputs, which will require some done simultaneously. When with the traditional method you eliminate the extra button and it becomes a smoother and more natural input. Finally consider the shift to leverless controllers (Hitbox), now you have a 4 directional buttons and 8 other input buttons. This becomes even more awkward when double tapping the forward input is easier BC you already have the finger available to do so faster even. In the case of SF you may have buttons like like L1 and R1 that serve no purpose, BC you have the ability to use button shortcuts to input things but that is easier to use on a stick/hitbox than control pad. On a pad though you often need those two extra buttons to map these multi-use shortcuts to make it smoother and easier to use those mechanics. It can be difficult to input 2 to 3 buttons simultaneously on a control pad due to the nature of the layout on the controller, Again another reason people tend to use sticks and leverless to play these games. The reason other genres can get away with the dedicated dash mechanic is due to the analog sticks used for primary movement and camera control, leaving the d-pad for other uses like quick changing abilities and weapons. So there is a freed up number of buttons that can be used for dashing. In those games its used for dodging and advancing, once again allowing those game's combat loop to move more smoothly. Games like Doom Eternal and Stellar Blade make ridiculously good use of these mechanics. Apologies on the long response, I just wanted to make my point clear. I am not saying your opinion is not valid, but I feel it left out some elements that do explain why. Regardless great video and pretty funny too.
@@innocenceUnknown You can't compare some niche functions that a couple characters have with a universal function shared across the entire roster. Giving the former its own button over the latter is illogical. Why is it hard to tap 3 buttons? You make it sound like you have 2 fingers, not 10. Not to mention that the Kameo example is exclusive to MK12 and no other game. What I gather from most of your examples is that people have gotten used to thinking in 2 buttons, which probably has partly to do with the standard Xbox/PS controller layout, which encourages you to think in more or less 2 thumbs, plus the occasional ancillary button from all your other 8 fingers which take the piss, most of the time. For some types of controllers double-tapping may be easier, I don't know them all so I defer to you. Not sure I see the difference between fighting games and other action-oriented genres - all of them use one set of controls/buttons/analog stick for movement, and the right side for action buttons, which in fighting games are 3 or 4 attack buttons, whereas in something like Devil May Cry it's, once again, movement on the left side, and action buttons on the right: a light attack, heavy attack, lift attack etc. But I think the broad point (which I should've made in the actual video) is that this should be an option - you should be able to choose whether you want to use 1 button or double-tap. Love discussing the nuance, so thanks for bringing the extra points up.
It's just a matter of muscle memory. Good workaround, if you're heavily indoctrinated by the back-block thing is to press back and the block button at the same time; that should associate one with the other fairly quickly, and over time, you can transition to just pressing block, once it's cemented into your muscle memory.
@@squidsona8509 I hate block buttons too, but love the vid here, lol. I think MK (and all fighting games) serve an option to change blocking as a button or holding back.
@@masheen8724 Fight sticks aren't very well designed. 5 of your fingers are forced onto the stick, and the other half isn't very conducive to you using your thumb, so that limits you to 4 fingers, basically.
The first 3 sure I get it but with pokes if you hit then your fastest stand button is guaranteed and they can’t poke before you hit them and if it’s blocked you can grab and nullify there poke that’s actually a skill issue
The problem I have with pokes in mk...is majority of them are like -3 sometimes -4...this means your character has to be privileged and have a 9f mid (Which is RARE ASF)....TO CHECK these pokes....which means if ur character ISNT PRIVILEGED!!!.. u have to play the poke war game lol 💀
In mk1 most d1 are -9 or some -8, you have the opportunity to do a back dash or a grab to counter another poke, many mediums are slow but have the quality that the character advances with the attack and that allows whiff punish, or if you're lazy you can just do another poke to punish, so at least there are more options in that aspect compared to mk11
@blaztt7482 yea that's something we already knew....the 9f imbalance "luxury" still exist meaning pokes wars will cease to exist rather if they are -9, -8 or not....due to normals not having the "reversal" property as special moves do in mk games....most characters still cant do anything...I can just create a mind game with armor, if i see u block I call kameo to make it safe or plus...if it hits it's a full combo launch...MKX day 1 strat which is retarded.."wakeup safe armored lsuncher"
Everyone hated the idea of a run button in MK3 & MK4 yet everyone always says NRS should bring back the run mechanic because they loved it in MKX. Flipstance should be the Run button
Finally, a brain! Yes, the destiny of Flip Stance is to be converted into the Run Button. It should stop denying it. And yeah, folks hated running in MK3-4 because people hate any drastic new change. It would be the dedicated dash/run button - people would hate it simply cause it's different, then they'd get used to it and pretend they never had any problems with it.
@CynicalWarlock like you would not believe. Or, well, you clearly do. Nowadays, "last I played anyway" I'm more of a idiot with a sword and pray all my opponents are experts with swords who have no idea what an idiot with a sword is gonna do. Hell, I beat a Black Adam user as Joker in Injustice 2 in a King of the Hill match by a sliver.
@@SuperLumianaire Nice. I think the 3D era was more straightforward with its controls (and the classic era, obviously). No double-tap dashing if I recall correctly, no complicated run mechanics or fireball cancelling or arbitrary timings.
Yeah, the effects make it look better, same with Tremor's d4, in MKX, as others mentioned. That one's probably the coolest poke, cause it both looks good and makes sense functionally and anatomically.
@@CynicalWarlock yes, in rare cases standing pokes like Akuma's Standing HK can be crouched but crouchable attacks are very rare in 2D Fighters outside of MK However in most 2D Fighters pokes are a lot faster than in MK, in MKX the standard was 6 Frame Startup and in MK11/MK1 it's 7 Frame Startup, but in games like Street Fighter and Guilty Gear pokes are at least 4 Frame Startup and in some cases even 3 Frame Startup, meaning they're also a lot stronger in blockstrings since they can be chained together
The difficulty of fighting games does discourage newcomers for attempting to learn them, cause they believe they can't. I mean I know this, I can play a little of a character to get a hang of it, but it's impossible, at least I believe so to get really really good. I do see the problem with the over assignment of controls to one single button. In Unchained, the PSP version of deception R is for block R + forward was a breaker, I haven't played enough of any of the recent games to know that back is block, like in Tekken 6, you literally have to not press anything to do a normal block. I do know that in the earlier games,there was a Rin button which I didn't find a use for, because... It was mostly useful against me, and I couldn't get around to making good use for it, for in rush downs. The hard part of combos, most times is the 'beats' you have to wait for in some dials. You know this quick if you've played deception's konquest or Tekken 5. To find the right time to press the next button that's not too early or too late, changing the move or it failing to register is something else. Shit, I wrote this before getting to your explanation, honestly didn't think this video would be this relatable, I thought it was gonna be in gaming language, which I only know 'come' and 'go' in. On that note, in Tekken, most ppl keep praising the 3d map, but attimes I find it kinda hard to 'navigate' through, and it can be a sucker when you attack doesn't land cause, he moved a feet forward or behind. I swear I fought a guy that just spammed pokes, like as soon as I get close enough it's a FUCKING poke. And again, it does happen to other ppl, that's good to know👍. God man, gotta give you the credits, that I got you part 🤌👍. For a second there, I thought you were the bald guy in the crowd.
Yeah whenever I'd try teaching fighting games to people in the past, they'd always tap out mentally, rather quickly. It's like hold this, then double-tap that, wait, dash a little, but not a lot, then.. just.. no. They give up. Running in MK3-4 was basically the same as in MKX, just easier, cause you didn't have to tap 3 fuckin buttons, in sequence, just to stat the damn thing. In MK4, specifically, you could combine it with sidestepping to dodge a projectile then run to close the distance quickly and punish the opponent. The strict timing gets my goat the most. I remember MK9 being way more lenient here, cause it was very responsive - the characters were less stiff and accelerated faster and you could cancel anything into anything. But there were still high-skill combos though, which is nice. There was this one Reptile combo where you had to launch the enemy, then dash to the other side and neutral jump punch them to continue the juggle; getting that neutral jump punch was the most difficult thing ever. But yeah, otherwise, the combo difficulty was very palatable, so it's nice that it had both. Yeah it's hard to keep 3D fighting games from getting cumbersome. I still think 2D or 2.5D is the cleanest way to go. Yep, fought plenty of pokers. Especially annoying when they'd play Liu Kang in MKX, who, for some reason, had a down-3 that was plus on block, as in he recovered faster than you even if you blocked his poke. My ruse worked - people now think I'm bald.
Double-tap to dodge isn't exclusive to fighters. I can't count how many times I've accidentally flung myself into bottomless pits in Unreal Tournament because of that shit. ~Signed; a fellow Sheeva Simp
Ahh, Unreal Tournament, fun times.. Yeah also happened to me in Cyberpunk 2077 - the double-tap function was built in and couldn't be removed, as I recall.
You realize how ridiculous that looks, right? Also, that's not what happens most times, cause most times, you block their poke, then do your own.. which *they* block, so they (respecting the rules you just laid out) do another poke of their own, which you block, then do a poke of your own etc etc ad nauseam.
2:50 sometime I notice how different culture effects you. In my mind people consider fighting games party games and in angloshere it seems to be more serious about them
Interesting thought. There's probably plenty of English/US people that play fighting games casually, but to your point, a big part of the competitive fighting game scene kind of lives in America, probably cause Americans tend to be competitive about everything, and because African Americans seem to naturally excel at them, just like Koreans naturally excel at RTS games.
I was about to disagree with you harshly but after seeing what you said in the description I thought "Why not? I agree with you." (Pokes are something I hate though.)
@ i have about 5k hours in mkx bro we can agree it disagree im not saying jump in wasn’t op but every character had tools so players couldn’t abuse it if u we’re good with anti airs
It'd be a decent start, 3 pokes is overkill, you generally use 2 at most. You should have a short range one that has short range but a lot of pushback, and a super-long one that does more damage, low-profiles and is good at nipping a bit of damage and space control.
@@SNELPACK It's always been that way. You have standing 1s and other short-reaching high attacks that are borderline useless in laggy online situations, and mids that are supposed to solve that problem, but are too slow point blank, because of pokes. I remember in MKX and MK11, a big part of how good a character was came down to how fast their mids were and how good the hit boxes were. I'm just tired of a system of moves where half of them threaten to become near-useless, half the time.
Never once have any of these been a problem imo but pokes. They single-handedly created the worst meta and gameplay strategy ever (that dominated mk11 in its entire life cycle): strike-throw. At least in mk1 they aren’t as ridiculously fast OR positive
@ So true! If you weren’t watching a strike-throw mashfest with occasional jump-in strikes into throw… you were watching a zoning match. Thanks Cetrion and Robocop!
I see the thirty year traditions that date back to the old arcade days are... in fair use. [ looks at the dumbass in the thumbnail K.Oed on the floor, smh ] " Yeah... I remember the ken block spam on chun Lee's ultimate as one of fighting games, most astonishing feats that were done by these four categories.. awesome to witness it be perfectly timed, but once everyone saw it, my local arcades we're soooo annoying with the spam guard button wanting to do it themselves. [ brought over a mic since last comments hilarious goof up, a copy of ' I have no mouth and I must Scream "and a local copy of pitch black coffee. " HEY WARLOCK!!? Who the hell is this Mook on your welcome Mat!?? "
@CynicalWarlock th-cam.com/video/96MKkqOlpKs/w-d-xo.htmlsi=za90vjN4KMNyKgfs meant to add this game called FOOTSIES classifies poking as a "cover attack" basically to stop advancing opponents,attack while defending etc. With that concept in mind pokes seem less annoying..I use them to hell lol
Hey, I do think it would be better if they add two types of input systems one easy kind and the other one the competitive kind and make it mandatory for e sports players to play using the competitive system of input that way easy input system will be able to attract casual players who just want to have fun like in battle royale games you get an option to turn on or off the aim assist (I might be sounding dum and in that case ignore me 😅)
But then why have the hard system at all? If players can perform basic movement and combos easier, it'll enhance the quality of the matches. I get the aim assist analogy, but it's not like you're pressing one button to have your character fight for you for half the round, it's just eliminating extraneous inputs.
@@CynicalWarlock well to not make it boring for the Hardcore players that way you can make most people happy and also it might encourage some casual players to get competitive in time
This video just confirm my theory that the only ppl trash talking mk1 are the ones that can’t play for shit. That’s what makes mk1 the best fighting game ever. You need to actually be good to play rank
5th idiotic thing: Your opponent lol Like why would they wake up sweep? Full screan Shoryouken? Lol 🤦♂ I've taken a break from fighting games, they ain't good for my mental health lol
The most frustrating thing is having to train yourself how to fight idiots online, only to be completely at a loss when then actually come across a skilled opponent, because you didn't get nearly enough practice time against someone like that.
I just think it's kind of weird how you like are so into the idea of removing a lot of useless checks that you will even remove back to block which kills cross-ups then in the same breath talk about how you really like execution being a thing. in my perfect world there is no execution at all and it's all just skill-based and not timing based at all
Execution *is* a form of skill. All skill in games can be broken down into 2 categories: execution and decision-making. Completely removing either one makes any game dull as dirt. And to clarify my statement, I'm not against removing difficulty, I'm against removing arbitrary difficulty, e.g. links that are naturally tight - good, random timing imposed on certain moves - bad.
The worst thing about pokes is that they arent all equal Why does zub zero's poke catch back dashes?? Why does quan have a 9 like a frame poke??? Why do so many characters have T-Rex arms as pokes 😭 Oh yeah pokes in general are lame as hell as a concept
Why did Liu Kang have a d3 that was +3 on block? Or +6, whatever it was. Plus! On block! Why did Predator's pokes reach to the other side of the fuckin screen? Because.
4 - Meanwhile BlazBlue with microdashes for many combos that are far for optimal than other combo routes. Personally I like double tap dash/backstep since it allows for more skill expression. 3 - Cross ups have been part of the genre since forever. I honestly don't understand how MK players even get crossed up with jump attacks when you just have to hold a button. MK doesn't even have projectile clashes. Again I'm fine with cross ups because it's another part of the mind games that fighting games should have. 2 - Arbitrary difficulty may seem awful especially when it's a character you like or want to play but whoops they're optimal combos are all 1 frame links. Also there's a microdash here and there. However the dumbing down of fighting games by either widening the window to link attacks or removing combo routes have made a lot of modern fighting games less fun to watch and/or play. One way to see this is to compare how Street Fighter 4 players play the same character compared to how they played the same character in SF5. 1 - Pokes in fighting games really only bad if all you can do with them is just throw them out and hope it hits the opponent. MK has generally had this problem. Meanwhile in a game like BlazBlue you generally do the same but due to its gatling sytem you can link the higher tier buttons and then a special move. Fighting games that do generally feel better to play and watch for obvious reasons. And sometimes people will try to throw out riskier pokes since the reward is generally much higher for said risk even if the risk is to put you in negative advantage since the reward can be that high.
4 - 8:44 3 - You don't get crossed up. And honestly, tech-ing a throw has a much smaller window to react; compared to that, you have like 4 hours to switch buttons while an enemy jumps over you. You don't get crossed up in MK, but you don't want to take a jump-in attack anyway, because of how vulnerable you are to pressure and mixups, afterward. 2 - Once again, I'm about dumbing down arbitrary difficulty, not difficulty in general. 1 - Yeah it's the same for KoF. Although now that I think of it, from a certain point of view, it makes even less sense to start an entire combo that can swing the entire match.. from a poke.
-double tap to dash is bad I dont know a franchise with free buttons aside from Tekken to map it on your controller. Alot offer the player the option to change their controls anyways If only people were self aware enough not to make content on games they suck at
Bro I love your channel and essay about mortal Kombat but how do you double tap the dash motion by accident practice makes perfect can you play fighting games have heartedly then these mistakes are bound to happen if you're looking for a dash button go guilty gear there's a fighting game for every type of player song with more lenient controls put practicing matters
You really should've learned a thing or two about game design before making this vid lol The reason pokes in MK don't lead into full combos or rarely are punisheable by a full combo is because they're the safest and least committal options a character has, imagine if you were playing SF6 and Ryu hits you with his cr.LK so you eat 60% and got put in the corner because your cr.MK was -5 or smth In MK what you're supposed to do is punish the poke with another poke and then run pressure on your opponent, like mixups or staggers, that's how you are rewarded for making the right read (blocking the poke) without also making the risk-reward too much in your favour Similar things apply to all your other points, Backdashes in most 2D games are invulnerable for at least half of their total duration so imagine everyone having a one button DP even outside of Modern Controls, in other games like Tekken and MK they're crazy strong mobility options because they can be cancelled into Attacks/Crouching/Jumping so imagine if everyone could zip around the screen by pressin a 1 button input
Also you should play other games. I started with NRS, I have some fond memories, but they’re easily the worst AAA dev rn. Their games feel clunky af and bad balance (imo but I hear similar opinions from many others)
One idiot thing in fighting games: not MK specific, but charging commands. Why does Guile has to WAIT 2seconds for his sonic boom, when down-forward projectile types can spam their shit? The first time I played a game that allowed a simple back-forward command without charge was Eternal Champions in 1993. Amazing shit. WHY hold back or down for two seconds for a command!?!? It’s baffling. And, um… the computer doesn’t have to charge. The AI Guile for example would spam that sonic boom like it’s going out of style.
That's a stupid complaint. Charge attacks exist to prevent moves from being overpowered and to encourage certain playstyles for certain characters (Guile being the Tank Zoner is the textbook example)
@ sheeeeeeiiiit. Then have Ken and Ryu charge down 2-seconds on their down-forward fireball. Additionally, have the CPU-AI player respect that 2-second charge too.
Again when it comes to practice especially to things like pokes in mortal Kombat since mortal Kombat 9 and all NRS era there's always a way to be poking you block until they're out of range and then you could full combo punish with a mid attack or now in mortal Kombat 1 after the first poke/D1 you poke back and the full combo punish or can grab them out the next attack some pokes you can actually special cancel after and punish for a whole combo here's a guide to Jab spam th-cam.com/video/AQvsL1CmWlo/w-d-xo.htmlsi=cNw83AiInrWiozQB
I was about to say that you have MK brain, until I realized that most other modern fighting games have actually rolled back a lot of this stuff. GG Strive has a dash button, and SF6 actually patched in the ability to drive rush cancel by tapping parry instead of having to double tap forward. SF6's parry is very comparable to a block button in some ways, and lots of newer fighting games are going out of their way to make general execution more accessible while leaving in some hard stuff for players that enjoy having it. The special and super cancel windows in GG Strive in particular are comedically large, lasting basically the entire length of every move.
Down 1's do seem uniquely good in MK, since they're universally the fastest option, they're evasive, and they have decent range. Even though similar moves are often a bit more rewarding in other fighting games, they're also generally either less evasive and/or they're not as large, so they're usually easier to counter-hit or whiff punish. Makes them feel like more of a commitment.
hey man sometimes you gotta flip ur stance
Mic drop.
In sf6 you could always drive rush by inputting forward, parry, forward instead of dashing out of parry
Flip stance ain't useless tho, you can start dancing mid game. Funniest shit ever.
I take every word back.
dude flipstance in neutral ir when held down can stay the same or even be taunts like third strike, but when you hold forward or back it can make you dash
@@ri_c_e Not a single word..
That's the real reason people play Kabal.
Flipstance is supposed to be used as a fake out. Like you move and your opponent reacts, then you attempt to punish assuming you didn’t just eat the attack for stance switching ? Idk hahah
most idiot thing in fighting games is me labing for hours straight just to mash randomly in a real fight as if its the first time im ever touching a controller
And you drench your controller in sweat and go from a chill dude to your dad yelling about politics at the TV screen, instantly. Yeah, I've been there. It's so hard to keep your cool, when fighting a real person. That's why the pros are pros, I guess.
Not a fighting game, but I can't tell you the amount of times I accidentally thrown myself from a roof in Cyberpunk 2077 just because I wanted to move slightly closer to the edge
Yeees, cause the double-tap nonsense is in Cyberpunk too, and you can't unbind it, which is fucking mental.
I knew there was a non-fighting game that had this and kept tryna remember which one it was; thank you.
An Edgerunner
This is the best bait Ive ever seen holy shit
Thanks.
I'm not kidding, though.
NRS low pokes look horrible; leads me to thinking they didn’t motion capture those. They just moved joints on arms and legs which looks unnatural
Good fuckin point. Looks like you're playin with dolls.
@ exactly. Some of them… the physics just don’t add up. The one poke you shown here was infamous in my mind, lol. Try that in real life and you will just fall. I’m a firm believer that 3-D fighters need martial artists in mo-cap. Tekken’s story sucks; but the martial arts is good. MK’s story is lightyears better (similar to a rated R series on STARZ) but sometimes the martial arts fail because of laziness
@@johnnysilvercloud4470 I wouldn't say anything close to "light years better", MK story modes are asinine, although I *am* hearing more and more how Tekken is the king of autistic stories.
That's why I showed that Kitana poke - if you pause it as she 'strikes', it looks like falling, shitting, and doing the Russian dance at the same time. It doesn't make sense. Even in a cartoon, it doesn't make sense.
@@CynicalWarlock if you began narrating commentary of Tekken’s ridiculous story, it would be hilarious. Tekken only center’s Mishima-related characters, hard. Everyone else is joke-jobber characters. You have a Jackie Chan super cop character… disrespected. A Bruce Lee homage character… joke-ass jobber. Paul Phoenix, original Kazuya rival…. Jobber. Nina, a blonde assassin… jobber. They just don’t know what to with their cast. At all. I kinda stopped playing, and champion MK and MK lore over Tekken… even though MK 1’s story is bonkers and Jax and Sonya aren’t fully playable.
@@CynicalWarlock you can probably do a 20 minute video on all the ridiculous moves that breaks physics, like those non-motion-captured pokes.
The entire point of Back Block is the allow for the possibility of cross-ups, which is a fundamental mix-up tactic in 2D Fighting Games (and Tekken). If you can block in all directions with a single button then it removes this strategy and makes defensive too easy. Thats why most 2D fighters dont have block buttons because it a bad design choice for that sub-genre, Mortal Kombat & Injustice is the only 2D fighters with block buttons.
3D fighters can have a block button because the added dimension means you aren't completely safe even when blocking since there's a different way to cross you up, same with Platform Fighters like Smash Bros
Injustice doesn't actually have a block button.
Injustice is back to block, which is why when Scorpion was in IJ1, he was a fucking nightmare to fight
@@j.i.nthenobody54 Yeah, teleports without a block button are especially cheap.
Granblue has both ways of blocking. No downside to either form as there’s rarely crossups iirc. And hell, even Sf6 has a pseudo block button with its parry and it works fine.
@HeavyShores
In SF6 parrying cost meter so you can't always do it
Did you get beat by a poke
No.
@@CynicalWarlocki completely believe you
1.Dash macros alongside double tap dashes aren't too uncommon but they can sometimes significantly impact defense in games with frame 1 invuln backdashes
2.B2B reduces strategies like "yolo flying kicks" and crossup mix doesn't always include jump ins, I can definitely see the depth just general left/rights can add that give up the corner, need a midscreen knockdown, have more unique tells opposed to high/lows, forcing a reverse input special on wakeup, etc. I think one of the reasons devs refrain from adding both control schemes in a game is the fact that you'll have to eventually learn both regardless to better defend in situations where one is better than the other turning it potentially more complicated in the long run
3.I don't think a character's basic gameplan should usually be locked behind a high difficulty curve but there's a lot of people who enjoy the aspect of relatively absurd execution in characters, hitting 1f links and such rarely get old
4.Mk11 poke meta was inexcusable you're right lmao
Interesting video, some of these takes usually quickly get thrown under scrub takes or whatever but I think they are genuinely valid, I personally find block button games usually come pre equipped with more expressive movement and crossups and proximity block in back 2 block games usually suck. Vae Victis
Oh, a Legacy of Kain buff.🤜🤛
Great assessment, and you're right about games with block buttons having more ample/expressive movement - that's something the B2B crowd either neglect to mention or log it as a con, when it arguably makes the game more enjoyable to watch in most cases, and that's certainly true for MK.
Having both B2B and a block button as options doesn't make much sense cause the block button is objectively easier, so eventually, everyone would just end up using that one; however, there *is* one middle option here, which is having a block button but not making your character turn around automatically when crossed up - that way, you still have to press an extra button to turn and not get hit. I think some of the older fighting games had that.
Tough execution is something I am, once again, all for, as long as the payoff is worth it; something like Nimble Reptile made sense to be super-high execution, and there's a great deal of reference and excitement when you see someone pull off a high level combo like that. The problem is that a big chunk of MKX's cast ended up being able to get the same damage for way less hassle, which made you feel stupid for specializing in Nimble Reptile, no I'm not speaking from experience, why would you ask that?
Anyway, great points all round. Vae Victis.💪
Tbh, the low pokes of Quan Chi and Peacemaker in Mk1 looks cool
Peacemaker has one with the gun, right? Easy win, I guess.
@@CynicalWarlock 2 off 3 he use the Desert Eagle
A Ranton and Critical Drinker reference, I salute that
🫡
Right back at ya. Both are great inspirations.
Wish Ranton would leave his wife for me.
something something somehow connecting the topic in the vid to wanting Kabal in MK1
High-effort comment.
4: People love The Stick and Buttons. Things have ALWAYS been like this. They dont want things easier. They want the skill ceiling to still be too high for anyone other than those who dedicate days worth of time into those games. While at the same time wanting regular people to dedicate to getting good like crazy if they even wanna touch a tournament, and anytime things are easier people throw a fit.
3: As a Mortal Kombat player with friends who play every other Fighting game. They still make fun of me for the fact Block Button exists. Cause who needs these over +20 year old REGULAR controllers when you can use a Stick and buttons or JUST buttons to play games to replicate the feeling of being at an arcade which many younger people getting into fighting games dont even have 3 hours of experience playing fighting games in an arcade.
2: Mortal Kombat is Quirky its all about timing woah how fun. This is why I dont lab and just stay ass at fighting games. I dont wanna learn the muscle memory of the half second where I put down the controller and lay my head down while I wait for the character to land into the range where I can continue the combo just for an extra 4-10%
1: No fighting game is safe from spamming low pokes. It came free with your fucking purchase. When Im losing/winning in MK against friends I just spam low pokes cause whats safer and more guaranteed than landing at least one of these. If they make the hit box fucking impossible to land unless youre pressing your face against the characters crotch or make the knockback ridiculous with the damage being complete ass unless if in the corner then that MIGHT be a decent change? But this is all just coming out of a sleep deprived mf commenting a one page essay on a Fighting game video.
Imagine defeating an opponent by crouching close enough to smell their wiener and slapping their nuts, while the camera goes into Zack Snyder slow-motion mode. Oh wait, you don't have to imagine it, that's how most matches end.
Sounds like most of this stuff comes down to a bunch of dinosaurs gatekeeping the entire genre.
One of my pet peeves in Fighting Games are Zoners, for one, they are pretentious enough to not call their spamming AS spamming. Two, the speed of their projectiles is to fast for you to block, and they still do cheap damage anyway, and three they make the games boring to watch and haven't been hugged as a kid.
Zoning has its charm, but yeah, you need to go through a lotta frustration to get it. A lotta zoning does devolve into spamming, you do make a massive point there, and FGC people will often get too pretentious to acknowledge that. Dodging/blocking projectiles can be massively improved with practice and learning to predict a player's intentions. Not getting hugged as a kid, there's not fix for that.
@CynicalWarlock I agree with everything you said, especially the not getting hugged as a kid part.
@@gimmeyourrights8292 Jokes aside, that makes being an awesome dude that much more fun and challenging.🤜🤛
@CynicalWarlock Especially in the fgc.
@@gimmeyourrights8292 bhaahaa
If Poison would've just start slapping me I would be crying
I would be gooning.
Poking deserves its number 1 spot in the most idiot things in fighting games. And yes they look stupid and so uncool because it just looks like the opponents are slapping each other's balls around rather than fighting each other to the death. If I am being very generous, Sindel's d3 in MK1 looks ok I guess for a poke, but that's being generous.
Mmm, manly game of slap-the-balls.
Yeah, like someone else said here, Tremor's d4 is probably the best-looking one.
@@harveysidhu7030 poking is hilarious in the old SFA games because they depict the win with a cherry, hence the term cherry-tapping
I honestly agree
I used to like Fighting Games before but theyre too demanding so it ends up being a waste of time
They're worth getting good at, but it is tough to get to that point yeah. Worst feeling in the world is investing all that time (and money) into a game, then quitting.
7:52 MKX tremor down 4
True! How long did it take you to think of it?
@ i remember watching a video about tremor it mentioned how he had a very practical low poke, i thought it looked cool so it stuck with me
thats my favorite one in the game bruh i always rant saying they look weird but thats ones always cool ash to me. i like mileenas d4 in mk9 too,
I liked this video, it kept a premise that was pretty much just complaining light and fun by having plenty of funny jokes.
Also the character difficulty comment made me think of Dragonball FighterZ, as they have a good and bad example of high difficulty characters, Hit is really strange and hard to play because his powers are so different from everybody else’s, but against somebody who’s mastered him it’s near impossible to know how to defend yourself, while Master Roshi is the only character who can’t fly and has to use awkward jumping or flinging yourself around by shooting beams backwards, and his quirky special moves just don’t offer enough sauce to justify it.
That first example is exactly how it should be - very tough character to learn, but if you master them, they're damn near op.
Friends always looked at me weird when I said I hated fighting hit the most but man I made it to angel rank while still not knowing how to block against the mofo lol dude is a menace
I play Master Roshi. His movement implications requires you to understand how the game work fundamentally.
His leaps and reverse Kamehameha are better than regular Super Dash in alot of situations. Superdash reflects Ki Blasts and is a hard commit action. Because of both of these things, characters with 5S ki blasts can cancel them into 2H because the game counts reflecting as interaction, thus giving it a cancellable state.
Leap does not reflect ki blast, it passes through. Turns 5S Ki Blasts, which are usually safe and non committal, into extremely punishable as they can't cancel into an anti air.
Being able to control Reverse Kame, also lets you safely punish from a distance without having to approach. Which makes it harder to anti air because Roshi doesn't have to go towards his opponent.
I promise, him not having Superdash and float is NOT a problem
@ I didn’t claim they made him bad, I claimed they made him difficult to use…
There are other factors for why he’s typically near the bottom of the tier list
Perfect video to watch after my urology exam
Or during.
The third point was definitely dialup combo brainrot fr😂, and back blocking is good bro
Back-blocking is for uncultured savages, bro.
@ nah man js get gud, it has way more skill expression than block button aswell, especially cus the nrs block button finicky asf
GGstrives dash button makes the game so much more fun i cant lie
Finally, someone who speaks English.
I was a casual fighting game fan since modern controls have been a thing platinumed mk1 tekken 8 and sparking zero 100% agree
Finally, someone enlightened.🤝
To answer Double Tap to Dash and Back to Block:
This design comes from when a Street Fighter game designer wanted Six Buttons on the cabinet instead of the usual 2-3. It was approved but to avoid people being scared by it, all the 6 buttons do the same thing: Attack
This is why instead of a block button or a jump button, they moved it to the Joystick. And it's been the same ever since.
The only 2D arcade era game to add a block button and a run button is Mortal Kombat.
So Street Fighter is the root of all evil.
@@CynicalWarlockit's good design. Block button is fine but it fundamentally changes how offense works. Which is okay just different.
@@CynicalWarlockit’s better designed than a lazy block or dash button
@@SikeNoYacht No.
I mean I can get behind a lot of this but back blocking is what allows crossups to exist
You missed the part where I said "fuck crossups".
@CynicalWarlock bad
For the difficult execution, that's not always the developer's fault.
They often do mean for players to use simpler "dial in" combos. Its the players who constantly seek to optimize combos by often using methods the developer's didn't expect.
Like ya, I know combos themselves in SF2 and roll canceling in CvS2 were not intended features, but you cant tell me that Namco meant to purposely add micro-dashes (and I know you love double tapping forward for dashes) to the most optimal combos in Tekken
Yeah I should've mentioned that, but I didn't want to get into the weeds too much. Devs and QA do their best to test the possibilities, but it doesn't compare to what the community goes on to do with the game, so yeah, they don't deliberately make optimal combos that difficult, it's just a result of people pushing the envelope as much as possible. But my main point of contention remains arbitrary things, timings, things like that.
Stance change is a remnant from the 3D era of MK
Back when it cycled between martial styles - you know, actually important shit.
I think the only fighting games I've seen actually have a dash button are the official Touhou fighting games (besides the 4th game for some reason; it wanted to be special I guess), and in the 5th and 6th games it also doubles as a block button if you're not moving, though it drains your spirit (the resource used for regular projectiles and special moves) and has a lot more pushback compared to regular blocking. The games do still have double-tapping for dashing as an option though, with the first three games giving you longer dashes if you use the dash button, and for the 2nd and 3rd games you actually need to double-tap for air dashes, since using the dash button in mid-air instead triggers flight, which is like an air dash but you can turn during it and it uses spirit. I think super jumps can also be used with the dash button instead of needing to crouch then jump, and it lets you do jumps out of dash, plus some other game-specific uses like it being part of the command to pull off your super in the 1st game, or being used for a mechanic to help escape blockstrings in the 2nd & 3rd games
Now that's more like it - I mean it gets a bit messy with the air controls - but great design, overall. Make both single-button and double-tap dashing options, which I should've mentioned in the video.
Technically, there’s a dash button in Guilty Gear Strive. It’s actually a dash macro though so it’s up to you if you want to use it.
1:22
Her: Hey wanna go up to my room ?
Me: Sure lets go.
Her: Did you bring protection ?
Me: Why whats up there ?
Her: M҉E҉
Good one.
Me: Brought protection for you.
Her: What about against me?
I believe it's better to have dashing and blocking on the directionals as it separates movement from attacking. Directionals for movement and buttons for attacks. If you put movement in buttons then it's more confusion or mental stack. Think about how difficult combos that use command runs are even if it is just tapping two buttons. Plus making directionals do a lot of actions emphasizes the spatial maneuvering nature of fighting games and also complements motion inputs well. Also strict timing on combos is more a result of how flexible and precise the attacks are. Think about the difference in sf6 between rekkas and attacks. Look at how many options these differences afford. Making combos is like an artform do you want to remove creativity? Also sf6 added a link leniency window. Also less total moves are links. Usually high risk high reward moves like drive rush overhead. As far as pokes go. I can see how it's frustrating to have moves that don't cancel into specials. That is why I like sf6 and drive rush cancel. Pokes that just do damage but don't start combos can be a bit annoying. But in games where that is true, pokes are not mainly to do damage. They are there to force the other player to change block stance and not block the same way the entire time. I like to think of pokes as kinda like enhanced chip damage. Also a big counterplay to pokes is armor or invincible moves. You punish your opponent for spamming by hitting them with a powerful move (although it may cost meter or have other risks.) this is part of conditioning strategy. Your goal is to make your opponent want to avoid spamming and behave in a way beneficial to your own game plan. Also I don't play mk and I'm not sure if many games have this but armored stance into overhead or any move that hits crouches is very good. If your character has such a move you will have a better time. This form of character cast asymmetry is what adds to the beauty of fighting games.
No offense, but keeping all movement tied to the move buttons/stick is arbitrary and overcomplicates inputs for the sake of conserving the 1 extra brain cell it would take to learn a more ample control scheme (which I guess is one too many braincells for some). To play devil's advocate, the simplicity of this kind of scheme *is* what made standard console controllers endure for as long as they have, but it also has lots of arbitrary limitations, like forcing your thumbs to do 90% of the work. And pros can pro using a simple controller just fine, so there ya go. I'm not saying this is some fundamental flaw in fighting game controls, I'm just saying there's plenty of room for improvement.
I totally disagree with the back block deal. I mean, blocking holding down the back button opens mixups and punishes defensive players making them lose presion and cornering themselves at the same time.
However, not having a dash button is BS. I never noticed how deep I was into this genre until I was teaching my younger sibling how to make an air dash in GGAC+R and they couldn't do what I did with no problem
You get the same mixup options on a block button, the only real difference is, once again, crossover attacks which, I personally wouldn't make jumping too big a part of a fighting game. Maybe if there are games that offer really quick dashes that switch sides, then you could argue a little more for back-blocking, I suppose.
I too have plenty examples of tryna teach people fighting games and hitting these speedbumps - it's not even that you can't do all the inputs, but crowding you out with so many of them takes away mental bandwidth, bit by bit, that could otherwise be spent on the actual fight.
@CynicalWarlock The key difference between having a block button en blocking holding down it's the amount of presión you give up in order to defend.
In a game like smash for example, using the shield it's an overpowered option since you don't give up any presion, that's why I'm that game you need a good grab in order to be somewhat good (however, in a game like smash I agree it would be BS to block holding back, i use it a as example because it's easy to see in game like that)
This same thing happens (to a lesser extent) in the MK franchise. Having a block button makes that option too much OP for having no real downside, you could be blocking all day with no mayor problem
And that fundamental aspect it's something I don't like, it makes the games that use it too defensive
@@DiegoPerez-mg3kz Not sure where people get this idea that blocking makes you safe - it's the same function. Especially in a game like MK, turtling is not and never has been a problem; sitting there blocking is a surefire way to lose the round. And between lows, overheads, command grabs, hard-to-blockable setups, heavy zoning and heavy pressure, blocking definitely does *not* make you safe, nor does anyone want to actually block. That's partly why people hated MK11 so much, cause they took out most of these offensive options and turned the game into a simplistic strike-throw affair.
Perhaps offense is not as potent in other fighting games? That would explain people's reticence towards a block button.
Good pokes:
Homelanders laser eyes
Peacemakers gun
You found themmm
Double tap to dash is fine, in mk stance change button is reserved for special characters and while someone may think it is a waste for "normal" characters and there may be better ways to implement it, it works and it's fine really.
Back blocking in my opinion has always been idiotic and I played SF and KOF games as a kid, just like the double tap to dash it's more of "fighting game DNA kind of thing" and it works and it's a matter of getting used to.
Now for the real reason I'm commenting, you are wrong about pokes in mk, in M1K for example a d1 typicaly your fastest move is -8 on block, which means you can punish it with your 7 frame d1 and then jail the hit with a string typically a 7 frame standing 1 (which is a high but they cannot duck, armor, poke, their only option is to block or they get hit, why? because of framedata, a d1 on hit has enough advantage that you can follow up with a 7 frame high).
Ofc some d1's are hard to punish or not punisheable depending on the character, but you can still take your turn back with a 14 frame mid right after for example (simple match they have to recover for 8 frames after the poke was blocked and still do a 7 frame poke, this means you have 15 frames to do something), if they try to do another d1 right after they will get hit, so they have to block, "oh but my mid is too slow and my d1 is so short it doesn't punish what do I do????" you can backdash and go for your mid to whiff punish it.
All of this to say that double poking ON BLOCK is idiotic, it doesn't work and only does so if you don't know fundamentals, and there's multiple ways someone who attempts it can suffer for it, there are characters who thrive on poke special cancels, but that's a mindgame that 1- doesn't combo, 2-usually unsafe, 3-matchup dependant, a mindgame that is fair to be played and there's no use complaining about it. what you said about going for a high against a poke on block, depends on how good your 7 frame standing move is (if you even have one), and if the poke or any -8/-7 move doesn't have any kind of pushback or is long range, in that case you can definitely jail (or punish depending on the move). There is counterplay and you won't see a high level match consisting of back and forth pokes, I do agree that in older games it was more of an issue since they were all safe, so you had to jail or just backdash and because of the reasons I mentioned earlier about the range of the chracters moves, poking back and forth was indeed more common, not an issue with mk1 though.
yap wall completed.
It's the same equation: whether you do a 7-frame standing 1 to punish a -8 poke, or you do a 14-frame mid to punish -8 poke recovery + another 7 frame poke, the result is still a 1-frame differential/window. It's just as finnicky and unreliable in a less-than-stellar-ping setting.
Thinking on it, iirc the original flip stance in the 3D era actually changed styles for characters so you could use different moves, although once the NRS era came around they stopped that, even though certain characterr do technically have extra styles/stances, Again I don't know why they have the chance to do it... again but don't, and would rather you use 3 buttons instead of just using the original intended button.
It's just a relic, yeah; I don't even know why it's in there, I doubt they still use anything - engine, assets - from the 3D era, so there's a million other things they could do with that button that would be better, including doing nothing.
There is skill in the Dash Mechanic in knowing when to use it and when to not use it. It makes the difference in punishing an opponent you tries to catch you with an attack that you can dash out of range of it, or also the player to play a mind game in baiting an opponent to throw out a move they can back away from quickly. having it tied to tapping twice is up to you the player to learn to discipline yourself to not tap twice that much.
It is a valuable tool in playing the neutral. In MK it serves the same purpose, but also serves the purpose of allowing combo extensions to net higher damage output. Lastly it is useful in MK BC of the Dash Blocking ability. This lets you rush in and keep yourself safe and it also is used in a skill known as wave dashing which allows you to move in far faster than a basic walk in.
Flip Stance does now have a purpose in MK as it now is used my several characters to accomplish special abilities they have such as, Nitara's flight.
Perhaps I was misunderstood - I never once said I have anything against dashing itself (quite the contrary), just the way you execute the command. All your arguments justify dashing, none of them justify double-tapping to perform dashing.
Being disciplined enough to double-tap properly isn't the issue, the issue is double-tapping anything is objectively more cumbersome than single-tapping a dedicated button, for no reason.
You yourself indirectly acknowledge the importance of smooth controls when you point out how important baiting out moves or just reacting with a dash/backdash quickly enough - double-tapping lengthens that reaction time.
I mentioned wave dashing, by the way - you can perform that just as easily with a dedicated dash button, the thing works the same way.
@@CynicalWarlock OK I understand, however, when you have a controller where all buttons are used it creates a difficulty to fully dedicate a whole button to a Dash. I understand that the Stance Flip exists, however that button is utilized with multiple characters that carry special properties (esp in MK1). This would require to try and map this control to Dashing and make it also work for those special properties, some of which could conflict with the use of the mechanics.
It is smoother to double tap for a dash than to use a dedicated button BC it also makes the movement smoother to execute.
Consider this you have to poke with a far poke (usually this is a D4), if it lands unblocked, you will need to dash in to keep pressure going and on top of that you may have to use your Kameo button to aid in that, while simultaneously pressing a 3rd button to dash in. It is far more efficient and easier to double tap the Forward input rather than trying manage pressing 3 to four buttons consecutively to accomplish the task of dashing in to keep pressure up on your opponent or to bait them. Also if you were to say use the analog sticks in some way that might make the mechanic even more awkward and clumsy to execute.
Then we have to consider the factor you did not mention, the use of controllers outside the standard PS5/XBox Control pad.
With a Fight Stick you now have a Control Stick and a 8 button layout and no Analog sticks at all. With MK you are forced to hold a block button for blocking, so in the scenario I gave, you now have to hold a stick down, press D4, Press Dash, input a string to pressure, Use a Kameo attack, and then hold block. This would be very awkward to execute as well BC you only have your right hand to make all these inputs, which will require some done simultaneously. When with the traditional method you eliminate the extra button and it becomes a smoother and more natural input.
Finally consider the shift to leverless controllers (Hitbox), now you have a 4 directional buttons and 8 other input buttons. This becomes even more awkward when double tapping the forward input is easier BC you already have the finger available to do so faster even.
In the case of SF you may have buttons like like L1 and R1 that serve no purpose, BC you have the ability to use button shortcuts to input things but that is easier to use on a stick/hitbox than control pad. On a pad though you often need those two extra buttons to map these multi-use shortcuts to make it smoother and easier to use those mechanics. It can be difficult to input 2 to 3 buttons simultaneously on a control pad due to the nature of the layout on the controller, Again another reason people tend to use sticks and leverless to play these games.
The reason other genres can get away with the dedicated dash mechanic is due to the analog sticks used for primary movement and camera control, leaving the d-pad for other uses like quick changing abilities and weapons. So there is a freed up number of buttons that can be used for dashing. In those games its used for dodging and advancing, once again allowing those game's combat loop to move more smoothly. Games like Doom Eternal and Stellar Blade make ridiculously good use of these mechanics.
Apologies on the long response, I just wanted to make my point clear. I am not saying your opinion is not valid, but I feel it left out some elements that do explain why.
Regardless great video and pretty funny too.
@@innocenceUnknown You can't compare some niche functions that a couple characters have with a universal function shared across the entire roster. Giving the former its own button over the latter is illogical.
Why is it hard to tap 3 buttons? You make it sound like you have 2 fingers, not 10. Not to mention that the Kameo example is exclusive to MK12 and no other game.
What I gather from most of your examples is that people have gotten used to thinking in 2 buttons, which probably has partly to do with the standard Xbox/PS controller layout, which encourages you to think in more or less 2 thumbs, plus the occasional ancillary button from all your other 8 fingers which take the piss, most of the time.
For some types of controllers double-tapping may be easier, I don't know them all so I defer to you.
Not sure I see the difference between fighting games and other action-oriented genres - all of them use one set of controls/buttons/analog stick for movement, and the right side for action buttons, which in fighting games are 3 or 4 attack buttons, whereas in something like Devil May Cry it's, once again, movement on the left side, and action buttons on the right: a light attack, heavy attack, lift attack etc.
But I think the broad point (which I should've made in the actual video) is that this should be an option - you should be able to choose whether you want to use 1 button or double-tap. Love discussing the nuance, so thanks for bringing the extra points up.
I actually hate block buttons. Its the main reason i cant get good at mk. It just doesnt feel natural to me
It's just a matter of muscle memory.
Good workaround, if you're heavily indoctrinated by the back-block thing is to press back and the block button at the same time; that should associate one with the other fairly quickly, and over time, you can transition to just pressing block, once it's cemented into your muscle memory.
@@squidsona8509 I hate block buttons too, but love the vid here, lol. I think MK (and all fighting games) serve an option to change blocking as a button or holding back.
@@johnnysilvercloud4470 Or even both. Options are good.
I play fighting games on stick. I tried MK and getting use to the block button was very uncomfortable.
@@masheen8724 Fight sticks aren't very well designed. 5 of your fingers are forced onto the stick, and the other half isn't very conducive to you using your thumb, so that limits you to 4 fingers, basically.
The first 3 sure I get it but with pokes if you hit then your fastest stand button is guaranteed and they can’t poke before you hit them and if it’s blocked you can grab and nullify there poke that’s actually a skill issue
1. Still looks asinine
2. Most poke situations come down to 1-2 frame windows, which become stupidly inconsistent online
The problem I have with pokes in mk...is majority of them are like -3 sometimes -4...this means your character has to be privileged and have a 9f mid (Which is RARE ASF)....TO CHECK these pokes....which means if ur character ISNT PRIVILEGED!!!.. u have to play the poke war game lol 💀
Finally, someone who gets it.
In mk1 most d1 are -9 or some -8, you have the opportunity to do a back dash or a grab to counter another poke, many mediums are slow but have the quality that the character advances with the attack and that allows whiff punish, or if you're lazy you can just do another poke to punish, so at least there are more options in that aspect compared to mk11
@blaztt7482 yea that's something we already knew....the 9f imbalance "luxury" still exist meaning pokes wars will cease to exist rather if they are -9, -8 or not....due to normals not having the "reversal" property as special moves do in mk games....most characters still cant do anything...I can just create a mind game with armor, if i see u block I call kameo to make it safe or plus...if it hits it's a full combo launch...MKX day 1 strat which is retarded.."wakeup safe armored lsuncher"
Warlock: just like..
Me: I beg your pardon!!!
All braincells were harmed during the making of this video.
peacemakers down 4 poke when he shoots the gun looks kinda cool, and homelanders down 4 where he shoots the laser
Yeah generally stuff that doesn't require them to actually use limbs.
Omni Man's down 4 looks pretty cool
Similar to Tremor's, right?
I can’t wait to see this on scrub quotes
Me too
@ I mean that in a good natured way, but you do definitely have MK brain lol.
0:25 Ramblomatic vibes!
XD
This man knows.🤝
Everyone hated the idea of a run button in MK3 & MK4 yet everyone always says NRS should bring back the run mechanic because they loved it in MKX. Flipstance should be the Run button
Finally, a brain! Yes, the destiny of Flip Stance is to be converted into the Run Button. It should stop denying it.
And yeah, folks hated running in MK3-4 because people hate any drastic new change. It would be the dedicated dash/run button - people would hate it simply cause it's different, then they'd get used to it and pretend they never had any problems with it.
Flip stance literally has a purpose tho depending on the character and kameo…
The input thing, you are on a golden point for this. In Deadly Alliance, I could crush a lot of people because of this. 9 and onward? Not so much.
Wow, that big a difference..
@CynicalWarlock like you would not believe. Or, well, you clearly do. Nowadays, "last I played anyway" I'm more of a idiot with a sword and pray all my opponents are experts with swords who have no idea what an idiot with a sword is gonna do. Hell, I beat a Black Adam user as Joker in Injustice 2 in a King of the Hill match by a sliver.
@@SuperLumianaire Nice.
I think the 3D era was more straightforward with its controls (and the classic era, obviously). No double-tap dashing if I recall correctly, no complicated run mechanics or fireball cancelling or arbitrary timings.
So that’s why inputting retiles commands was bullshit sometimes in Mk 1.
Imagine if he's the only one, fml.
I mean agreed on ur points , but spawn had a nice back 4 if i remember right , with that demon popping up in mk11
100%. I'll never stop bitching about how Spawn should've been in MKX, instead of 11.
1:20 WEAR WAIST ARMOR
XD
Full-on chastity belt.
@@CynicalWarlock that would be a
*LOINSAVER*
XD
@@Ramsey276one Call me Mufasa, the Loin King.
block button makes it realistic, if you've ever sparring you'd understand
Good point, backing up is one thing, holding your arms up to block, is another.
The only poke I like is mk1 sub zeros d1. But even then, it’s just an icicle stuck on the end of Jokers d1 😭
Yeah, the effects make it look better, same with Tremor's d4, in MKX, as others mentioned. That one's probably the coolest poke, cause it both looks good and makes sense functionally and anatomically.
Love your content keep up the great work
Absolutely💪
Mortal Kombat is as deep as a kiddy pool
with holes in it
In Sf6 pokes aren't as powerful as in MK because even fast jabs can hit crouching opponents.
As in they're mids?
@@CynicalWarlock yes, in rare cases standing pokes like Akuma's Standing HK can be crouched but crouchable attacks are very rare in 2D Fighters outside of MK
However in most 2D Fighters pokes are a lot faster than in MK, in MKX the standard was 6 Frame Startup and in MK11/MK1 it's 7 Frame Startup, but in games like Street Fighter and Guilty Gear pokes are at least 4 Frame Startup and in some cases even 3 Frame Startup, meaning they're also a lot stronger in blockstrings since they can be chained together
pokes are countered either with : parrys back dashes or flawless blocks pal
Thanks for the PSA, pal.
The difficulty of fighting games does discourage newcomers for attempting to learn them, cause they believe they can't.
I mean I know this, I can play a little of a character to get a hang of it, but it's impossible, at least I believe so to get really really good.
I do see the problem with the over assignment of controls to one single button.
In Unchained, the PSP version of deception R is for block R + forward was a breaker, I haven't played enough of any of the recent games to know that back is block, like in Tekken 6, you literally have to not press anything to do a normal block.
I do know that in the earlier games,there was a Rin button which I didn't find a use for, because... It was mostly useful against me, and I couldn't get around to making good use for it, for in rush downs.
The hard part of combos, most times is the 'beats' you have to wait for in some dials. You know this quick if you've played deception's konquest or Tekken 5. To find the right time to press the next button that's not too early or too late, changing the move or it failing to register is something else.
Shit, I wrote this before getting to your explanation, honestly didn't think this video would be this relatable, I thought it was gonna be in gaming language, which I only know 'come' and 'go' in.
On that note, in Tekken, most ppl keep praising the 3d map, but attimes I find it kinda hard to 'navigate' through, and it can be a sucker when you attack doesn't land cause, he moved a feet forward or behind.
I swear I fought a guy that just spammed pokes, like as soon as I get close enough it's a FUCKING poke.
And again, it does happen to other ppl, that's good to know👍.
God man, gotta give you the credits, that I got you part 🤌👍.
For a second there, I thought you were the bald guy in the crowd.
But yeah, I don't see a purpose in picking between showing the player your dick or your ass
Yeah whenever I'd try teaching fighting games to people in the past, they'd always tap out mentally, rather quickly. It's like hold this, then double-tap that, wait, dash a little, but not a lot, then.. just.. no. They give up.
Running in MK3-4 was basically the same as in MKX, just easier, cause you didn't have to tap 3 fuckin buttons, in sequence, just to stat the damn thing. In MK4, specifically, you could combine it with sidestepping to dodge a projectile then run to close the distance quickly and punish the opponent.
The strict timing gets my goat the most. I remember MK9 being way more lenient here, cause it was very responsive - the characters were less stiff and accelerated faster and you could cancel anything into anything. But there were still high-skill combos though, which is nice. There was this one Reptile combo where you had to launch the enemy, then dash to the other side and neutral jump punch them to continue the juggle; getting that neutral jump punch was the most difficult thing ever. But yeah, otherwise, the combo difficulty was very palatable, so it's nice that it had both.
Yeah it's hard to keep 3D fighting games from getting cumbersome. I still think 2D or 2.5D is the cleanest way to go.
Yep, fought plenty of pokers. Especially annoying when they'd play Liu Kang in MKX, who, for some reason, had a down-3 that was plus on block, as in he recovered faster than you even if you blocked his poke.
My ruse worked - people now think I'm bald.
Double-tap to dodge isn't exclusive to fighters. I can't count how many times I've accidentally flung myself into bottomless pits in Unreal Tournament because of that shit.
~Signed; a fellow Sheeva Simp
Ahh, Unreal Tournament, fun times..
Yeah also happened to me in Cyberpunk 2077 - the double-tap function was built in and couldn't be removed, as I recall.
You counter poke with a block first
Poke bk then grab or poke twice then grab always use grab
You realize how ridiculous that looks, right?
Also, that's not what happens most times, cause most times, you block their poke, then do your own.. which *they* block, so they (respecting the rules you just laid out) do another poke of their own, which you block, then do a poke of your own etc etc ad nauseam.
holy scrub quotes
Keep telling yourself that
Great video!🤙🏾
Thanks.
2:50 sometime I notice how different culture effects you. In my mind people consider fighting games party games and in angloshere it seems to be more serious about them
Interesting thought. There's probably plenty of English/US people that play fighting games casually, but to your point, a big part of the competitive fighting game scene kind of lives in America, probably cause Americans tend to be competitive about everything, and because African Americans seem to naturally excel at them, just like Koreans naturally excel at RTS games.
I was about to disagree with you harshly but after seeing what you said in the description I thought "Why not? I agree with you."
(Pokes are something I hate though.)
Knew the description would do the trick.
@@CynicalWarlock what can I say? I am easy to convince.
Man was bricked up the entire video
Nah, would've bumped against the screen.
So thats what you ment when you said pokes
@@nathanthenightowl3287 Ok, that was good. Can't believe I went the whole video without making a dirty poke joke.
@@CynicalWarlock glad you liked that one lol. Also i wanted to say the real erron black video was great
@@nathanthenightowl3287 Heey, thanks. Glad to know people liked that more experimental kind of stuff.
Teabagging is one of them
Ok 5 things.
@ as an dishonorable mention
ok but erron black is pirate(in my head canon)
Cool
@CynicalWarlock your erron black lore: gay and cringe
my erron black lore: based and seadog-pilled
Mkx had some of the best anti air to date tho every character in the game had a great consistent anti air
No.
@ i have about 5k hours in mkx bro we can agree it disagree im not saying jump in wasn’t op but every character had tools so players couldn’t abuse it if u we’re good with anti airs
Anti Airs are not difficult tho?
They're fairly inconsistent in MK.. or used to be.
@CynicalWarlock i mean, if you wanna be lazy, D2 is ol reliable and almost impossible to mess up
@@twistedvtuber9894 Too slow
I rarely comment in videos but I had to say your last point is so true, that it’s annoying
I also rarely comment on videos, so I'm honored.🤝
Mk should remove d 1 poke and just give char d3 or d4 pokes
It'd be a decent start, 3 pokes is overkill, you generally use 2 at most. You should have a short range one that has short range but a lot of pushback, and a super-long one that does more damage, low-profiles and is good at nipping a bit of damage and space control.
@ yea I understand that and I mostly use d1 to steal my turn back cause 90% of the cast in mk1 got slow ass mids
@@SNELPACK It's always been that way. You have standing 1s and other short-reaching high attacks that are borderline useless in laggy online situations, and mids that are supposed to solve that problem, but are too slow point blank, because of pokes.
I remember in MKX and MK11, a big part of how good a character was came down to how fast their mids were and how good the hit boxes were.
I'm just tired of a system of moves where half of them threaten to become near-useless, half the time.
This video was fun lol
Thanks. I'm all about fun.
I can't Play shit in fighting games but I still like it, just casual experience for 8 years now. I still suck at competitive level.
Nothing wrong with playing casually.
3:46 RANTON CAMEO
Yeah we collab
I wish..
Never once have any of these been a problem imo but pokes. They single-handedly created the worst meta and gameplay strategy ever (that dominated mk11 in its entire life cycle): strike-throw. At least in mk1 they aren’t as ridiculously fast OR positive
Truth. Strike-throw killed MK11, and even grapplers were almost nonexistent, so it was just the most boring thing to watch.
@ So true! If you weren’t watching a strike-throw mashfest with occasional jump-in strikes into throw… you were watching a zoning match. Thanks Cetrion and Robocop!
@@Henry-iz7iv Yeah Cetrion was one of the most hated characters.
I see the thirty year traditions that date back to the old arcade days are... in fair use. [ looks at the dumbass in the thumbnail K.Oed on the floor, smh ] " Yeah... I remember the ken block spam on chun Lee's ultimate as one of fighting games, most astonishing feats that were done by these four categories.. awesome to witness it be perfectly timed, but once everyone saw it, my local arcades we're soooo annoying with the spam guard button wanting to do it themselves. [ brought over a mic since last comments hilarious goof up, a copy of ' I have no mouth and I must Scream "and a local copy of pitch black coffee.
" HEY WARLOCK!!? Who the hell is this Mook on your welcome Mat!?? "
[hair blown back and stiff from the "HEY WARLOCK"]: The Mook **is** the mat .
I dont care I love a block button. Injustice had too many agile characters with instant mixups
That's the spirit.💪
@CynicalWarlock th-cam.com/video/96MKkqOlpKs/w-d-xo.htmlsi=za90vjN4KMNyKgfs meant to add this game called FOOTSIES classifies poking as a "cover attack" basically to stop advancing opponents,attack while defending etc. With that concept in mind pokes seem less annoying..I use them to hell lol
Even just for the fact it looks stupid, let alone how annoying it is to play, I agree. Fuck pokes.
Amen.
Hey, I do think it would be better if they add two types of input systems one easy kind and the other one the competitive kind and make it mandatory for e sports players to play using the competitive system of input that way easy input system will be able to attract casual players who just want to have fun like in battle royale games you get an option to turn on or off the aim assist (I might be sounding dum and in that case ignore me 😅)
So like SF6?
Holy shit ur the top commenter
But then why have the hard system at all? If players can perform basic movement and combos easier, it'll enhance the quality of the matches. I get the aim assist analogy, but it's not like you're pressing one button to have your character fight for you for half the round, it's just eliminating extraneous inputs.
@@CynicalWarlock well to not make it boring for the Hardcore players that way you can make most people happy and also it might encourage some casual players to get competitive in time
@@SirCapyTheSecond Ah the untwisted Capybara
This video just confirm my theory that the only ppl trash talking mk1 are the ones that can’t play for shit. That’s what makes mk1 the best fighting game ever. You need to actually be good to play rank
Yes, because you've actually seen me play, somehow..
preach brother preach
In the name of our lord..
Also, nice name, PoP fan.
@@CynicalWarlock I'm not just a POP fan, I'm actually Persian as well
love your stuff
5th idiotic thing: Your opponent lol Like why would they wake up sweep? Full screan Shoryouken? Lol 🤦♂
I've taken a break from fighting games, they ain't good for my mental health lol
The most frustrating thing is having to train yourself how to fight idiots online, only to be completely at a loss when then actually come across a skilled opponent, because you didn't get nearly enough practice time against someone like that.
I just think it's kind of weird how you like are so into the idea of removing a lot of useless checks that you will even remove back to block which kills cross-ups then in the same breath talk about how you really like execution being a thing. in my perfect world there is no execution at all and it's all just skill-based and not timing based at all
Execution *is* a form of skill. All skill in games can be broken down into 2 categories: execution and decision-making. Completely removing either one makes any game dull as dirt.
And to clarify my statement, I'm not against removing difficulty, I'm against removing arbitrary difficulty, e.g. links that are naturally tight - good, random timing imposed on certain moves - bad.
The worst thing about pokes is that they arent all equal
Why does zub zero's poke catch back dashes??
Why does quan have a 9 like a frame poke???
Why do so many characters have T-Rex arms as pokes 😭
Oh yeah pokes in general are lame as hell as a concept
Why did Liu Kang have a d3 that was +3 on block? Or +6, whatever it was. Plus! On block! Why did Predator's pokes reach to the other side of the fuckin screen?
Because.
I love bro
Bro loves you
4 - Meanwhile BlazBlue with microdashes for many combos that are far for optimal than other combo routes. Personally I like double tap dash/backstep since it allows for more skill expression.
3 - Cross ups have been part of the genre since forever. I honestly don't understand how MK players even get crossed up with jump attacks when you just have to hold a button. MK doesn't even have projectile clashes. Again I'm fine with cross ups because it's another part of the mind games that fighting games should have.
2 - Arbitrary difficulty may seem awful especially when it's a character you like or want to play but whoops they're optimal combos are all 1 frame links. Also there's a microdash here and there. However the dumbing down of fighting games by either widening the window to link attacks or removing combo routes have made a lot of modern fighting games less fun to watch and/or play. One way to see this is to compare how Street Fighter 4 players play the same character compared to how they played the same character in SF5.
1 - Pokes in fighting games really only bad if all you can do with them is just throw them out and hope it hits the opponent. MK has generally had this problem. Meanwhile in a game like BlazBlue you generally do the same but due to its gatling sytem you can link the higher tier buttons and then a special move. Fighting games that do generally feel better to play and watch for obvious reasons. And sometimes people will try to throw out riskier pokes since the reward is generally much higher for said risk even if the risk is to put you in negative advantage since the reward can be that high.
4 - 8:44
3 - You don't get crossed up. And honestly, tech-ing a throw has a much smaller window to react; compared to that, you have like 4 hours to switch buttons while an enemy jumps over you. You don't get crossed up in MK, but you don't want to take a jump-in attack anyway, because of how vulnerable you are to pressure and mixups, afterward.
2 - Once again, I'm about dumbing down arbitrary difficulty, not difficulty in general.
1 - Yeah it's the same for KoF. Although now that I think of it, from a certain point of view, it makes even less sense to start an entire combo that can swing the entire match.. from a poke.
-double tap to dash is bad
I dont know a franchise with free buttons aside from Tekken to map it on your controller. Alot offer the player the option to change their controls anyways
If only people were self aware enough not to make content on games they suck at
Double-tap dat ass.
Bro I love your channel and essay about mortal Kombat but how do you double tap the dash motion by accident practice makes perfect can you play fighting games have heartedly then these mistakes are bound to happen if you're looking for a dash button go guilty gear there's a fighting game for every type of player song with more lenient controls put practicing matters
I can destroy people with the current control scheme just fine. I can also bemoan how trash it is.
Those 2 aren't mutually exclusive.
True I can understand it's for the content we all have a right to critique love your channel and also I agree some down one animations do look trash😊❤
@@dejhonstory5070 Appreciate you.🤝
I had to go back to .10 seconds to make sure I heard what I heard before I block this channel
Bye
most of these are just MK problems
Probably.
You really should've learned a thing or two about game design before making this vid lol
The reason pokes in MK don't lead into full combos or rarely are punisheable by a full combo is because they're the safest and least committal options a character has, imagine if you were playing SF6 and Ryu hits you with his cr.LK so you eat 60% and got put in the corner because your cr.MK was -5 or smth
In MK what you're supposed to do is punish the poke with another poke and then run pressure on your opponent, like mixups or staggers, that's how you are rewarded for making the right read (blocking the poke) without also making the risk-reward too much in your favour
Similar things apply to all your other points, Backdashes in most 2D games are invulnerable for at least half of their total duration so imagine everyone having a one button DP even outside of Modern Controls, in other games like Tekken and MK they're crazy strong mobility options because they can be cancelled into Attacks/Crouching/Jumping so imagine if everyone could zip around the screen by pressin a 1 button input
So.. you're like a literal bot, aren't you?
@CynicalWarlock you really don't know shiiit
@CynicalWarlock bots play fighting games better than you do it seems
Not gonna lie, the thumbnail mislead me to thinking ure just a casual bozo.
When infact you brought good points.
Yeah I do that a lot.
Also you should play other games. I started with NRS, I have some fond memories, but they’re easily the worst AAA dev rn. Their games feel clunky af and bad balance (imo but I hear similar opinions from many others)
Probably objectively true.
Hilarious as always 😂
@@CynicalWarlock 🤣
Review venom the last trash
Review: It's trash. Probably.
One idiot thing in fighting games: not MK specific, but charging commands. Why does Guile has to WAIT 2seconds for his sonic boom, when down-forward projectile types can spam their shit? The first time I played a game that allowed a simple back-forward command without charge was Eternal Champions in 1993. Amazing shit. WHY hold back or down for two seconds for a command!?!? It’s baffling.
And, um… the computer doesn’t have to charge. The AI Guile for example would spam that sonic boom like it’s going out of style.
Only makes sense if said move is a little overpowered, I think. But the AI being able to do it willy-nilly is wack.
That's a stupid complaint. Charge attacks exist to prevent moves from being overpowered and to encourage certain playstyles for certain characters (Guile being the Tank Zoner is the textbook example)
@ sheeeeeeiiiit. Then have Ken and Ryu charge down 2-seconds on their down-forward fireball. Additionally, have the CPU-AI player respect that 2-second charge too.
@@lukejones7164 the idea of my boy Sagat charging 2-seconds for either high or low tiger ball is hilarious
@@johnnysilvercloud4470 That's a stupid argument because Ryu and Ken's fireballs aren't strong enough to need to be balanced that way
First?
Again when it comes to practice especially to things like pokes in mortal Kombat since mortal Kombat 9 and all NRS era there's always a way to be poking you block until they're out of range and then you could full combo punish with a mid attack or now in mortal Kombat 1 after the first poke/D1 you poke back and the full combo punish or can grab them out the next attack some pokes you can actually special cancel after and punish for a whole combo here's a guide to Jab spam th-cam.com/video/AQvsL1CmWlo/w-d-xo.htmlsi=cNw83AiInrWiozQB
You're not feeling me: I don't want to poke. At all.