Great video Joe. Nice fair and honest comparison. I have always like using Harland Sharp Rocker Arms. Always have had great results. Thanks for sharing. Take care, Ed.
I have always liked Harland Sharp, but I'm not so crazy about needle bearings overall on street/strip builds. I like the bushing (preferably bronze but aluminum or iron riding on a layer of oil is acceptable) style for oil control and longevity. The Hughes (originally made by "Probe Industries," unsure if they still make them for Hughes) rockers are a favorite for more serious setups, but Crane gold/MoPar blue seem to work pretty good with realistic spring loads. Top-end full-race yes, T&D/Jesel etc. are hard to beat, and the Harlands bring that to the sportsman racer!
@@JustMoparJoe No worries. Cool video, really interesting how much the 2 rocker arms varied in ratio. And you will pick up a little duration with the added rocker ratio.
I have to chime in here guys, do the math the 440 source rockers are 1.6 and the Harland's are 1.7 even though they said 1.6, the math doesn't lie. .361x1.6= .5776 just under what he got, and .361x1.7= .6137 just over what he got.
Yes, the math doesn't lie. After best geometry is set up and then checking it is quite often that the stated ratio is not correct. Some rocker manufacturers over achieve others under achieve. It's possible to have a problem either way.
Very good, guys. I actually have a video coming up soon of using a longer pushrod with the Harland rocker to see how the lift changes at the valve with the same indicator position.
@@timosracecars you got it buddy! I will give this one another day for anyone who might have a chance to see it. And try to get the next one edited tonight.
Great comparison! The Harlands seem like a good solid piece. For me, it's about what does it pickup in ET and I'm sure you can relate! Looking forward to those results.
Brilliant video Joe, the time you put in to doing such clear close up filming is simply awesome along with extremely accurate information. I would love to have you build a 440 engine for me, alas I sadly live on the other side of the planet 😭.
Awesome video Joe! Cheap parts will always cost more in the end. I'm fixing to go into my 451 to remove the cheap roller lifters and replace them with Morels. I just don't want to be wishing I had after a failure.
I just bought a set of adjustable 440source non roller 1.5 rockers that are a copy of the old Crane/Isky ductile iron rocker. I hope they work as good as the old ones did. Extremely affordable and look nice
@JustMoparJoe no max spring pressure rating or max lift. I would think they will hold up to a ton of spring pressure. Stronger than aluminum. Super high lift over ,700" and I would definitely check how the rocker rides on the valve tip for proper geometry.
@@mitchellferre1652 they’re similar to the new PRW’s. I talked to Mike at B3. He said he wouldn’t run the PRW’s on any solid roller springs. He’s a wealth of knowledge on rocker arms for sure
Yes it was hard to read from my vantage point, and you know how editing can be. I caught the film last night, but didn’t have time to cut it and do a voice over. But overall, I’m excited for .023” more lift and a tad more duration 💪🏻
In the early 2000's the market was flooded with knockoff aluminum roller tip rockers arms, be it bushed ..or needle bearing style. NONE of the knock offs are more than a 1.5'ish ratio. No matter where they were sold and relabled/engraved etc . Good vid Joe.
I’ve got a set from then! Dads old dart had some black ones and some red ones later. Maybe dove rockers. He lost several roller tips that cracked out! Most didn’t have any bearings. Thanks brother!
Interesting, I've never had 440 source rockers fail to be fair to them on this one but have definitely found the ratio not as described compared to harland sharp or prw
I talked to you about a year ago about non-roller Adjustable Big Block Rockers, well I pickup a set this past weekend at MOParty. I finally found a set a guy wanted to sell and not want to bankroll his next car.
You’re 100% right, More lift will also mean more duration. Good stuff. Looking forward to seeing how this performs, if it makes any change at the track.
Thank you again Joe . Always so much info and sharing. Learn just a little more off every post. Like to see if it makes and track time or rpm difference.
Damn Joe that was interesting, i know you were not knocking 440 source but it is that you get what you pay for......for the most part, my 68 gts came with those rockers but they used stock hold downs which when i rebuilt, i got hs hold downs but just to check cost of today i looked that rocker set up and man is it way higher than just 10 years ago so yes I'm glad i have Harland Sharps already...lol but i will say and you would too that thanks to 440 source i was able to fill more niches with great parts like insteadof paying way up for a b&m flex plate i went with a 440 source and on the windage tray that i had to modify very little so I'm a big fan of them and you Joe, keep it going brother 👍👍👍👍👍✅✅✅✅✅
Try them out and I believe that you are not going to be disappointed. I have put those rocker arms through the paces of two rebuilds and they perform flawless.
I was really wondering which way it was going to go. How much of a difference will a couple threads make? (I suppose that also falls into the category of longer vs shorter pushrod length?) Want to scare yourself a little? Test the final installed set one more time with the engine hot.
@@JustMoparJoe Please just for the SnG's of it, turn the lash adjusters back to 0 thread and then see what the lift goes to, as well as at 3 or something (I think 3 might create bind? so maybe not do 3 haha).
@@cjm5002 so by using the longer pushrod, (measured at approximately .125 longer) the adjuster now goes to zero threads showing. I spin the engine and use the dial indicator to see what it does. The results will break the internet 😂
@@JustMoparJoe Oh man, thats a nice teaser for the next installment of this video series! I have never had to deal with these kinds of rockers (Im obvious noob to them) so I am just going off basic spatial reasoning here. Lookin forward to the next one to see what other of my misconceptions you can totally destroy, and thats a good thing. Keep teaching us, boss!!!
Nice video. I have a set of 1.6 440 Source rockers, but have not installed them yet. How do the springs get oiled with these rockers? I do not see any holes to supply oil to the roller tip and spring.
Good question! If I remember correctly, it’s splash oiled. This style of rocker is pretty well known for gushing oil out where the rollers meet the shafts.
OK, but I would like to see how consistent the rockers were among themselves. Like do all the HS rockers have the same ratio? And do the 440Source have the same ratio. I know it's a lot more work for you, but I think that would be just as important to know.
Thanks Bud. We did actually test a second Harland sharp exhaust and it was .002 more than the first one. I would call that quite close, and possibly identical because of testing error. I have a follow up video on this one, coming soon
@JustMoparJoe I think you could easily make a separate temporary test fixture to simplify testing all of them to ensure consistency of ratio among them. It would be much simpler than testing them mounted on the engine, one by one. It would also be interesting to hear what the actual manufacturers claim about consistency.
nothing wrong with 440 source rockers ! I had harlands fail on a 406 i built 20 years back the needle bearings didnt want to live i went to crane golds.
All I can tell you is about the present state of things. My 440 source rockers live on. The 440 source shafts have Giant grooves cut in them from the bearings. That was after the dyno session. They did send me more identical shafts. My Harland sharps are handling 150 more pounds of spring pressure on my 512 with a Solid roller cam and lifters. I absolutely test the limits of my stuff. I won’t buy another set of rockers as long as I have the Harland Lifetime Warranty.
Edelbrock claims 275 at .550 and 280 at 600 with a stock head. Mine have had port work, been unshrouded, and have a superb multi angle valve job, with Valves back cut, and chambers polished. I know those mods help at differing lift levels, but they weren’t flowed.
@@JustMoparJoe your right there in the sweet zone, we need a full update at the track. It will be interesting… your back cut, unshrouding, and chamber work, usually do really good things for the .200 - .400 range. I would guess a substantial power gain would indicate the port and bowl work are on point
can someone please tell me or point 👉 👈 👇 me in the direction where I can find info on how to put a older 360/340 in my 98 ram 1500 4x4 with out an extreme amount of electric wire work THANKS love the info I get from all the mopar channels but moparjoe explains stuff well
Thanks brother. I think you can fool most of the computer if you can use magnum heads and intake on your LA short block. That requires a special length pushrod that is “oil through”. Several threads online about that. But that’d allow you to have the sensors and efi from the injection, Also stock distributor. Front accessories may have be a pain. 🤷🏻♂️
Totally fine. It adds lift. Some guys call it “cheating the cam” because it adds figures whee there never was any. If the geometry is good, then it’s good for any arena.
Absolutely! I have the Injection ready for the turbo build. I keep running out of time and dollars go into the racecar first. It’s definitely on my list. I’m excited to make up the exhaust for that hot side with my new tig welder.
@@JustMoparJoe time and money - we all just need to figure out something to rid those two elephants in the room lol. That will be a fun series to watch. I’ve pulled one 400 out of a New Yorker and a guy online here in KC has a full 400 pull out of a RV listed for 400 (RV trans to carb). They seem to be the most readily available big block today for us mopar guys.
Very good question. Small blocks have a Goofy lifter angle. It actually reduces lift at the valve. So a .480 advertised lift cam may only be .460. I typically go for a 1.6 ratio when buying new. Magnum engines moved to this ratio, versus the 1.5 of the LA’s.
@@eddiegarcia9657 it’s possible. I like the Harland sharps a lot. If you call them directly, ask for Randy Jr. And he will give you the JMJ discount. It’s hard to beat a lifetime warranty.
So , you said I should call Harland Sharp and tell them Just Mopar Joe said I could get free rocker arm set ? JUST KIDDING , But you know somebody is going to call HS and ask for a set because they gave you a set lol Just like someone did to Eric Weingartner with I want to say Pro-Comp Heads lol
Nice comparison! Approximately 85k miles on my Harland Sharpes and counting!!!
Thanks, Tim! That’s great to hear. I will definitely test mine to the limit!
Great video Joe.
Nice fair and honest comparison.
I have always like using Harland Sharp Rocker Arms.
Always have had great results.
Thanks for sharing.
Take care, Ed.
Thanks for the help 🫡
I have always liked Harland Sharp, but I'm not so crazy about needle bearings overall on street/strip builds. I like the bushing (preferably bronze but aluminum or iron riding on a layer of oil is acceptable) style for oil control and longevity. The Hughes (originally made by "Probe Industries," unsure if they still make them for Hughes) rockers are a favorite for more serious setups, but Crane gold/MoPar blue seem to work pretty good with realistic spring loads. Top-end full-race yes, T&D/Jesel etc. are hard to beat, and the Harlands bring that to the sportsman racer!
Thanks Rodney!
PRW makes bronze bushing rockers like u r referring to .
440 Source has recently added them as well.
But stainless not aluminum.
The Harland read .605 not .610, unless my eyes are worse than I thought
It looked like .605 to me as well.
Yea I noticed that last night editing. It was too late to reshoot it so I had to send it. Thank you
@@JustMoparJoe No worries. Cool video, really interesting how much the 2 rocker arms varied in ratio. And you will pick up a little duration with the added rocker ratio.
Good info!! We have always been a fan of Harland Sharp!! Thanks for the lesson!!
Thanks buddy!
Great video as always! This shows that quality parts make the difference.
Thanks, Greg!
I have to chime in here guys, do the math the 440 source rockers are 1.6 and the Harland's are 1.7 even though they said 1.6, the math doesn't lie. .361x1.6= .5776 just under what he got, and .361x1.7= .6137 just over what he got.
Yes, the math doesn't lie. After best geometry is set up and then checking it is quite often that the stated ratio is not correct. Some rocker manufacturers over achieve others under achieve. It's possible to have a problem either way.
Very good, guys. I actually have a video coming up soon of using a longer pushrod with the Harland rocker to see how the lift changes at the valve with the same indicator position.
I'm looking forward to that video @@JustMoparJoe 👍🏻
@@timosracecars you got it buddy! I will give this one another day for anyone who might have a chance to see it. And try to get the next one edited tonight.
Great comparison! The Harlands seem like a good solid piece. For me, it's about what does it pickup in ET and I'm sure you can relate! Looking forward to those results.
Thanks buddy. If it doesn’t pick up at all, I’ll sleep better knowing I have the good stuff finally!
Brilliant video Joe, the time you put in to doing such clear close up filming is simply awesome along with extremely accurate information. I would love to have you build a 440 engine for me, alas I sadly live on the other side of the planet 😭.
Many thanks! I’m starting a 440 build next week. Check out todays video!
Awesome video Joe! Cheap parts will always cost more in the end. I'm fixing to go into my 451 to remove the cheap roller lifters and replace them with Morels. I just don't want to be wishing I had after a failure.
Great point! I got mine for a steal.
Another excellent video, even for us non Mopar people.
Thanks brother. Mopars were blessed with these shaft systems
I just bought a set of adjustable 440source non roller 1.5 rockers that are a copy of the old Crane/Isky ductile iron rocker. I hope they work as good as the old ones did. Extremely affordable and look nice
I saw those! Definitely worth a try. Did they have a max spring pressure rating?
@JustMoparJoe no max spring pressure rating or max lift. I would think they will hold up to a ton of spring pressure. Stronger than aluminum. Super high lift over ,700" and I would definitely check how the rocker rides on the valve tip for proper geometry.
@@mitchellferre1652 they’re similar to the new PRW’s. I talked to Mike at B3. He said he wouldn’t run the PRW’s on any solid roller springs. He’s a wealth of knowledge on rocker arms for sure
Do you know if the new set from the 440 source is better than the older ?
@dietermunz I wouldn't say they are better. More like a reissue of the same. It's not a redesign, just a copy.
THIS is a reallllly great video, Joe.... I'm sure HS is digging it too!!!!! Nice work....
Thanks, Steve. Definitely more to come
Thats why Haand Sharp are the industry standard😊
Really nice pieces!
That seems like a significant difference! Be interesting to see how it runs.
Thanks brother
Awesome video Joe...I had Harland Sharp 1.5 on my old motor...They worked well...I went with T&D 1.6 with my new build with 789 lift cam
Thanks for sharing! I have another one with different lengths of pushrods coming up. Fun test!
@@JustMoparJoe Awesome man
Hey now! Love the Jack Pine Savage "T"
You misread it. It was .605 (or slightly higher) not .610
Yes it was hard to read from my vantage point, and you know how editing can be. I caught the film last night, but didn’t have time to cut it and do a voice over. But overall, I’m excited for .023” more lift and a tad more duration 💪🏻
Glad you mentioned that,it would have come up sooner than later. Great stuff.
Nice ! Good info ! I'm Going to use it today . I'm going to compare my cheaper 1.6 with your specs . Thanks for info !
Please do 👍🏼
The math proves the HS rockers will give you more lift. Great video Joe!😊
Thanks Mike
Nice setup! Great info!👍
Thanks, Mitch!
You're a good teacher
Thanks brother
Harland’s are expensive , but they are excellent 🤘🏻
Lifetime warranty! I’m about to test out
In the early 2000's the market was flooded with knockoff aluminum roller tip rockers arms, be it bushed ..or needle bearing style. NONE of the knock offs are more than a 1.5'ish ratio. No matter where they were sold and relabled/engraved etc . Good vid Joe.
I’ve got a set from then! Dads old dart had some black ones and some red ones later. Maybe dove rockers. He lost several roller tips that cracked out! Most didn’t have any bearings. Thanks brother!
Good video . Great classroom . You learn more when it’s like an experiment !
Interesting, I've never had 440 source rockers fail to be fair to them on this one but have definitely found the ratio not as described compared to harland sharp or prw
Thanks for sharing!
You make good videos, MOPAR Joe.
Thanks Tom!
Very interesting Joe
Thanks buddy
I talked to you about a year ago about non-roller Adjustable Big Block Rockers, well I pickup a set this past weekend at MOParty. I finally found a set a guy wanted to sell and not want to bankroll his next car.
Congratulations!
Nice test Joe. That was great. Thank you
Thank you!
You’re 100% right, More lift will also mean more duration.
Good stuff. Looking forward to seeing how this performs, if it makes any change at the track.
Thanks, Mike! More to come soon
@@JustMoparJoe looking forward to it buddy
Wow. That’s a significant difference.
Glad I tested it! Thanks brother
Great video!
Thanks!
Thank you again Joe . Always so much info and sharing. Learn just a little more off every post. Like to see if it makes and track time or rpm difference.
Absolutely! I’m excited to get back out and try it. Hoping for better weather next time
@@JustMoparJoe can’t wait to see if and how much Joe !!
Damn Joe that was interesting, i know you were not knocking 440 source but it is that you get what you pay for......for the most part, my 68 gts came with those rockers but they used stock hold downs which when i rebuilt, i got hs hold downs but just to check cost of today i looked that rocker set up and man is it way higher than just 10 years ago so yes I'm glad i have Harland Sharps already...lol but i will say and you would too that thanks to 440 source i was able to fill more niches with great parts like insteadof paying way up for a b&m flex plate i went with a 440 source and on the windage tray that i had to modify very little so I'm a big fan of them and you Joe, keep it going brother 👍👍👍👍👍✅✅✅✅✅
Thank you, Mark. I’m glad to be working with 440 source and Harland on my projects. They’ve helped me tremendously on parts and tech.
Damn, Joe. Who would have thunk it? Great test.👍
Haha! Thanks brother. Got inspired for another one
Try them out and I believe that you are not going to be disappointed. I have put those rocker arms through the paces of two rebuilds and they perform flawless.
Hoping to try out that lifetime warranty, and never need it!
Enjoy watching your videos. Who do you use for machine work and where are they located? Thanks
Thanks for asking. Check out Ed’s Machine on TH-cam. His shop is in Rogers Arkansas
@JustMoparJoe thanks sir, I'm in southern MO and good machine shops in this area just don't exist anymore.
valve to piston clearance, fantastic tech video bro
Thanks Nate! I have an earlier video in the build series if checking that with clay, and had a mile with those huge symmetrical 8cc valve reliefs.
@@JustMoparJoe praise the lord!,, finally got my bitch to light, fantastic throttle response
Check valve seal to retainer also.
Yes sir. Ed and I just talked about that. He told me I could check it, but he knew for certain that I wouldn’t have any issues there.
I have used the H.S. rockers on a lot of engines and I never had a problem with them. Be warned, your going to pay for the quality. Pricey.
Thanks John. Have a good weekend
I was really wondering which way it was going to go. How much of a difference will a couple threads make? (I suppose that also falls into the category of longer vs shorter pushrod length?)
Want to scare yourself a little? Test the final installed set one more time with the engine hot.
Next video I test the different pushrod lengths! Lol
@@JustMoparJoe Please just for the SnG's of it, turn the lash adjusters back to 0 thread and then see what the lift goes to, as well as at 3 or something (I think 3 might create bind? so maybe not do 3 haha).
@@cjm5002 so by using the longer pushrod, (measured at approximately .125 longer) the adjuster now goes to zero threads showing. I spin the engine and use the dial indicator to see what it does. The results will break the internet 😂
@@JustMoparJoe Oh man, thats a nice teaser for the next installment of this video series! I have never had to deal with these kinds of rockers (Im obvious noob to them) so I am just going off basic spatial reasoning here. Lookin forward to the next one to see what other of my misconceptions you can totally destroy, and thats a good thing. Keep teaching us, boss!!!
Can’t wait to see the track results.
You and me both, buddy!
Looking Good Mopar Joe. Like that comparison. Ran sharps for awhile, quality product. Chat Soon 😉
Sounds good! Thanks, Buddy!
Awesome video
Thanks brother
I got the Harland Sharp for my 440. I like them. Like jewelry for my engine
Absolutely! Makes you want the clear valve covers
Seems to me that the 440 source rockers are closer to the 1.6 ratio.
Check out my next video, where I show how pushrod length actually affects lift at the valve, on a fixed rocker system.
Nice video. I have a set of 1.6 440 Source rockers, but have not installed them yet. How do the springs get oiled with these rockers? I do not see any holes to supply oil to the roller tip and spring.
Good question! If I remember correctly, it’s splash oiled. This style of rocker is pretty well known for gushing oil out where the rollers meet the shafts.
OK, but I would like to see how consistent the rockers were among themselves. Like do all the HS rockers have the same ratio? And do the 440Source have the same ratio. I know it's a lot more work for you, but I think that would be just as important to know.
Thanks Bud. We did actually test a second Harland sharp exhaust and it was .002 more than the first one. I would call that quite close, and possibly identical because of testing error. I have a follow up video on this one, coming soon
@JustMoparJoe I think you could easily make a separate temporary test fixture to simplify testing all of them to ensure consistency of ratio among them. It would be much simpler than testing them mounted on the engine, one by one.
It would also be interesting to hear what the actual manufacturers claim about consistency.
Thanks Mopar Joe 😊
Thanks brother!
HS are worth the extra money ,if you can afford them.for me ,its the quality. not lookin to break stuff.I cant afford that.
Yes sir 👍🏼
Purchased my first set of HS about a month ago. Hope theyre as reliable as people say.
awesome!
nothing wrong with 440 source rockers ! I had harlands fail on a 406 i built 20 years back the needle bearings didnt want to live i went to crane golds.
All I can tell you is about the present state of things. My 440 source rockers live on. The 440 source shafts have Giant grooves cut in them from the bearings. That was after the dyno session. They did send me more identical shafts. My Harland sharps are handling 150 more pounds of spring pressure on my 512 with a Solid roller cam and lifters. I absolutely test the limits of my stuff. I won’t buy another set of rockers as long as I have the Harland Lifetime Warranty.
Shafted!!
😂
Hope your car loves it😊
Thanks,Shane!
Typical result from a HS rocker. Ratios seem to be closer to 1.55 or 1.65 from all of them I have ever done.
Excellent! Thank you for sharing!
Wheres the peak flow, and slow down of the head?
The higher lift may or may not change a thing.
Edelbrock claims 275 at .550 and 280 at 600 with a stock head. Mine have had port work, been unshrouded, and have a superb multi angle valve job, with Valves back cut, and chambers polished. I know those mods help at differing lift levels, but they weren’t flowed.
@@JustMoparJoe your right there in the sweet zone, we need a full update at the track.
It will be interesting… your back cut, unshrouding, and chamber work, usually do really good things for the .200 - .400 range.
I would guess a substantial power gain would indicate the port and bowl work are on point
if I sent you some aluminum mopar performance valve covers for the barracuda would you use them?
That’d be fine. As long as they are clear on my master cylinder.
@@JustMoparJoe forgot you have tighter engine compartment than I do
By the way Great Video !
Thanks brother!
You'll get about 2* in dur.
Awesome! I would love to know how to calculate it
🥼🔎good work Joe 👍🏻🇦🇺⛽️💯.
Thank you! More soon! Part 2
1.349 my ebay 1.6 stainless rockers. Are less lift than 440 source.. and they are heavier . 😢😅
Thank you for sharing 👍🏼
What up mopar joe
Nothing but the rent 😂
can someone please tell me or point 👉 👈 👇 me in the direction where I can find info on how to put a older 360/340 in my 98 ram 1500 4x4 with out an extreme amount of electric wire work THANKS love the info I get from all the mopar channels but moparjoe explains stuff well
Thanks brother. I think you can fool most of the computer if you can use magnum heads and intake on your LA short block. That requires a special length pushrod that is “oil through”. Several threads online about that. But that’d allow you to have the sensors and efi from the injection, Also stock distributor. Front accessories may have be a pain. 🤷🏻♂️
Whats your opinion on 1.6 rockers on street cars?
Totally fine. It adds lift. Some guys call it “cheating the cam” because it adds figures whee there never was any. If the geometry is good, then it’s good for any arena.
Those rockers are beautiful.
Are you still doing the turbo 400 build?
Absolutely! I have the Injection ready for the turbo build. I keep running out of time and dollars go into the racecar first. It’s definitely on my list. I’m excited to make up the exhaust for that hot side with my new tig welder.
@@JustMoparJoe time and money - we all just need to figure out something to rid those two elephants in the room lol. That will be a fun series to watch. I’ve pulled one 400 out of a New Yorker and a guy online here in KC has a full 400 pull out of a RV listed for 400 (RV trans to carb). They seem to be the most readily available big block today for us mopar guys.
@@chacebryan1559 and my favorite engine platform to start with! 🥳
Your never going to beat a set of Harland sharp rockers.
I’m going to test these for a lifetime!
.15 E.T. reduction is my guess
That’d be great! But I need a weekend with some decent weather to test with
How do you determine the ratio for a 360?
Very good question. Small blocks have a Goofy lifter angle. It actually reduces lift at the valve. So a .480 advertised lift cam may only be .460. I typically go for a 1.6 ratio when buying new. Magnum engines moved to this ratio, versus the 1.5 of the LA’s.
Does the 440 source rocker get an oil hole at the tip of the roller ?
They do not. They have a hole under the retainer area that might spurt some around there
@@JustMoparJoe would that eventually wear the valve tip? Was planning on buying these for something better than procomp.
@@eddiegarcia9657 it’s possible. I like the Harland sharps a lot. If you call them directly, ask for Randy Jr. And he will give you the JMJ discount. It’s hard to beat a lifetime warranty.
So , you said I should call Harland Sharp and tell them Just Mopar Joe said I could get free rocker arm set ? JUST KIDDING , But you know somebody is going to call HS and ask for a set because they gave you a set lol Just like someone did to Eric Weingartner with I want to say Pro-Comp Heads lol
Stranger things have happened! 😂