you can't, unless you want your country to suddenly be classified as a terrorist occupied nation in desperate need of liberation by NATO and the U.S armed forces. In explanation. ex post facto criminalization is also prohibited by Article 7 of the European Convention on Human Rights, Article 15(1) of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, and Article 9 of the American Convention on Human Rights.
@@idcgaming518 unfortunately, in addition to being a pile of shit that only cringey hormonal teenagers and sexually frustrated women watch, doctor who is a terribly poor source of info on how governments and laws work.
I completely understand the admiral here. From his point of view he's protecting Starfleet from a possible temporal threat and gathering up as much information on this weird warp drive made out of mushrooms this 1000 year old ship has.
I love that they addressed all the time travel/temporal cold war stuff that was always popping up in ENT & VOY, by making it clear there was a century or so awhile back that just went /nuts/ with the time travel, to the point where it's been firmly outlawed. A neat way to acknowledge what came before while wrapping it all up!
*as if they would be okay with traveling to other dimensions or other iterations of the multiverse and gathering unique technologies that only existed there and bringing it back to augment their on ships or weapons...(rolls eyes)*
I've recently embarked on a chronological rewatch of all Star Trek ever made, and it was actually quite surprising to me just how many Enterprise nods there are in Discovery!
Clearly the admiral has never heard of an ex post facto law, and how many jurisdictions prohibit them. Since the 32nd Century laws surrounding time travel were not around in the 23rd Century, you legally cannot apply those laws to the crew of the USS Discovery.
@@Janoha17 My guess is it's because using a sleeper ship or being put in stasis still allows for the normal flow of time to occur, unlike using the Red Angel suit. Using the Red Angel suit to travel hundreds of years into the future in a matter of seconds is a bit different. Regardless, you cannot retroactively apply a law to an action that happened before said law was passed.
@@astrofan1993 Not that different, instead of this suite, the Discovery could also just use the time dilation caused by the next best black hole. Does not even need a black hole, just accelerating close enough to lightspeed without warpdrive or any protection against time dilation, that happens automatically, if you are fast enough.
Exactly, plus my understanding of the temporal Cold War is that it was future factions going back in time to change history. The Discovery crew were already in the past and went into the future. They didn’t change anything in the past other that what they would’ve changed anyway and once they came to the future everything they did was sanctioned from Star Fleet and the Federation so technically they did not violate the temporal accords.
Says who? Who is the stronger party in the situation? You tell them "erm you are not allowed to apply those laws" "Actually 900 years of weapon development tell me I can"
Oded Fehr is a great actor, yet I feel his SFRegs character tend to compress ones ideals into a formed predestined Star Fleet choiced attitude. How does one palaver with a centuries old seemingly amebic shaped entity that is 200X larger than the ship, or a cloud of entropic energies pushng around the ship until you design to say please stop? and a cartoon ish facade greets your remark? Lets knot forget that entropic randomly banding fleeting nodes of lights and action, that does turn out to be another presence, quite unknown to corporal beings! And the simple answer is within ALLof us, every day! Harmonics, harmony with bands of lights sounds and thoughts!
Yeah, that line seemed bizarre to me too. If Discovery was intent on going back in time with future knowledge to exploit, that'd be one thing. But as that's clearly not the case, I'm genuinely curious about what that means or if he's just making shit up on the fly.
Yeah, but there is a time skip involved :) Your body on July 1st does not belong at July 31st because it did not experience the changes associated with the days in between.
Joking acknowledged... it's not exaggeration if you're _really_ feeling it...no matter how uncomfortable your emotional freedom makes people who are "more in control".
Did they really just show us an AI that can spot every possible sign of someone lying then refuse to believe anything they say? I wonder why the writing on Discovery is criticised so much....
To be fair, he does seem to be implying that he is not saying they are lying. It's that he has nothing to actually prove their story to anybody else. Otherwise, yeah everything is Michael saving the day or just weird. Like those chairs. Gotta love how in a galaxy after the Burn, they continue using power intensive systems. "Nah instead of just having a chair that doesn't use any power at all, we'll have FLOATING CHAIRS. That eternally drain power because they float!" The writers appearing mistook "The future" as "Everything floats and isn't connected".
If jumping to the future was a crime for Discovery then a Temporal Agent would have appeared to prevent it. Since they didn't then the Temporal Agents would have decided that Discovery was meant to jump to the future.
If not jumping really meant the end of all live then there would be noone to stop them from jumping. It's a bit of a paradox. In general I think that (mostly) accidental jumps from the past to the future are not a crime and they'd have to quarantine the people from the past as to not contaminate the past with knowledge from the future when you send them back.
One of the best written work around. They jumped far enough that there is no longer a temporal relationship with SF but at the same time started far enough back that enough physical history would have been forgotten by the era that it would have been relevant.
In a way yes according to the Temporal War peace accord. Remember that during the Temporal Cold War some of the factions were from the 26th century and some from the 30th century.
@@kettch777 Ya but only discovery is in the future from the past, they are not in their original timeline anymore, because their timeline, all life was extinguished. They already protected the future, now all they can do is bring their knowledge of the past to correct the original timeline. The wars existed in many different timelines, which effected the main timeline, thats why they all don't know how the burn happened.
Seems to me that disobeying unethical or immoral orders from officious Starfleet bureaucrats or warmongering Starfleet admirals is _entirely_ in keeping with the best traditions of the Federation. And captains Kirk, Spock, Picard, and Riker would agree.
I remember there was a STNG episode a Admiral did something wrong and Picard caught him and was sent back to Starfleet headquarters on Earth and the Admiral yelled at Picard that he had “Lots of friends at Starfleet” first thing I thought was wow so in the future, Starfleet is no different then political parties where if you have friends in high places you can get away with almost anything
@Stupid Bitch No. He never said they were lying. He said he has TWO truths in front of him and he needed verification of thier story before he would risk the safety of the federation. The two truths are. A) They are not lying to him about the story B) Starfleet records say nothing about thier mission or the spore drive and that their ship was destroyed 900+ years ago.
Tucheh Stone the casting as well, for some reason theres some things that are not Star Trek with that crew, why is dat lady wearing make up, ive watch DS9 and Voyager but i dont remenber Starfleet females wearing so much make up, maybe im wrong, i dont know, The Discovery crew is just wack
@@vzerby That imperfection was left in to identify the hologram clearly. Back in DS9 they experimented with Holocoms, but they did not work out in screenplay - it was impossible to distinguish a beamed over and holocom character. Stargate managed by simply adding a imperfection to the hologramm. Discovery did the same in season 1.
Feels like the Admiral is just trying to keep them there to get as mush help as possible... a ship like Discovery would certainly be a great help for them. Plus wouldn't the law he quotes not apply to them, it only applies to him since they aren't from this era. Really its only that he can't help them travel back without breaking the law himself. So feels like since he has to uphold the law, and he also wants the ship, he sees it as a win-win for him. Also feels like the only reason why he wants to reassigne them is so he can just take over the ship.
there is no feasible way a ship with 900 year old experimental technology could even remotely be of help. That would be like saying a spanish galleon could be of assistance to a modern battleship in a modern fight. The only way that could be possible is if there was next to no technological advancement in said 900 years. For reference, irl computers have only been around like 80ish years, but your cellphone alone is like 20 trillion times more powerful then the first mechanical computer. Modern super cars have 1300+ horse power, whereas the very first car didnt even have 1 full horse power and that was over 130ish years of advancement. Assuming even the bare minimum amount of advancement suggests that a reffiting isnt even going to help: the ship is basically shiny scrap. The framework is obselete, the hull is likely not even remotely close to standard, nothing on the ship is likely to be compatible with modern in universe technology... So the writers mean for us to assume that the technology of the discovery (As experimental as it is) is somehow advanced enough to be compatible with technology after 900 years of advancement. Which just isnt feasible.
@@ThreeGoddesses Dunno, your analogy with the spanish galleon and modern battleship doesn't really fit here, since its not really about fighting ability, this "900 year old ship" has the ability to instantly travel anywhere without the use of dilithium in a time where dilithium is hard to come by. A technology thats been errased and hidden for even the highest ranking admiral. Plus the Discovery does get weapons, armor, sensors, and systems upgrades so it can deal with the newer threats. A full refit.
@@ClaudiusDK Its not about fighting ability, although that analogy was more geared towards conflict. The idea was to paint a picture of technological differences. At some point, instead of using a galleon, it would be more efficient to just make a new ship with modern materials. I mean, modern naval ships get decommissioned after just 30, 40 years of service. And its really hard to believe given the available technology of the time that ANY tech on the discovery is somehow still better then anything 900 years later. Where did the relevant tech research go? Why didnt the federation go "Hm, our experimental starship full of experimental technology dissappeared without a trace, maybe we need to make a new one or move on to better projects cuz clearly its dead or in the hands of enemies". The premise is dumb as shit, its full of plotholes, and the fact that even the basic ass frame is somehow still not improved.... I mean, how are 900-years-in-the-future ship frames not made out of lighter, more durable materials? The wiring, the.... everything. Nothing makes sense. And a retrofit of new tech into an old system just doesnt work, too many things would need to be replaced, the cost would be too high. Just make a new ship. It would cost less to reverse engineer anything the old ship had that was somehow still valuable, and put it on an entirely different vessel. This entire situation waves its hands so much Im surprised the writer didnt break something.
@@ThreeGoddesses Honestly, this is true, even without the tech bit. I remember reading the refit of the Discovery and the retraining of the crew lasted like... a few weeks to a month or two? How in the hell do you get people caught up entirely on history and tech in such a short period of time? The refit of the TOS enterprise into the TMP variant took at the least, 2 years and involved basically rebuilding the entire ship from scratch. Yet the Discovery can be totally overhauled in weeks without demolishing the entire ship? As you said and my brother brought up in our own talk about it, even the tubes the wires/power go through are different sized. Though he compared I think it was a WW2 submarine to a modern one. You can't just shove in the computer systems and functions without rebuilding the entire thing. Factor in, IIRC, they label the Discovery as "Discovery A" to hide the fact it was a time traveled ship, you'd have to make the ENTIRE crew be able to pass that test too.
@@daefaron I guess refit methods and starship repair didn't get better over 900 years ? And you both avoided the most important part ..the spore drive that can deliver the ship anywhere when basically all others were stuck close to home with no warp ... Its Sci fi and star trek for christ sake your not watching a non fiction documentary on navy vessels .. just enjoy it or don't watch hahaha
@@Tamamo-no-Bae the problem with that episode is that by the time it takes place the Federation would have expanded well in to the Delta quadrant and while the people of the planet wouldn't be members because they hadn't gotten their shit together enough to join until the end they definitely would be aware of it.
I somehow feel that Burnham may be responsible for the Burn. Maybe when she sent the Red Angle suit back into the wormhole, the destruction she programmed into it resulted in the Burn. Editing 11 months later: to everyone commenting after the episode aired… no shit Sherlock.
I don't see how, given that the suit went back to the 23rd century (as evidenced by the last signal seen by Pike, Spock, et.al) in the last scene of the season 2 finale. And making Burnham responsible for the "Burn" feels like a bit of a red herring to me. Remember...she's not the only person named "Burnham" who time traveled to roughly around this future era. I honestly think her mother caused it somehow through the last jump we saw her make in S2. Maybe the time crystal in her suit ruptured causing a chain reaction that spread along some resonance wavelength, passing through active dilithium chambers anywhere & everywhere, causing them to detonate? I have no idea. But it IS fun to speculate the nerdiness of what happened! 🤓
That means there are probably species working on board Discovery who's member worlds are no longer a part of this future federation. I'm sure there will be an episode or two in the future to reflect that.
I doubt it, there is no specific number but as far as I can tell there were only 30 some odd federation member worlds from the time discovery came from. I don't know why Burnham looks shocked when she hears 38. If this was a ship from a TNG/STP era I could see this being an issue because they had 150-200 member worlds by that point.
@@Bitchslapper316 Burnham did get there a full year before Discovery came through. I'm thinking in that timeframe she learned a lot about the federation and it's home worlds, so, she would have known the number and when Admiral Vance told her and Saru the current status she genuinely felt a sense of great loss.
@@KnowTrentTimoy Yeah that would make sense. A bit off topic. Now that I think about it scale of the galaxy didn't seem very consistent or perhaps the scale of the chain and the federation, I'm not sure. When Book and Burnham got to earth on the discovery she said something along the lines of "new quadrant fresh start" implying they weren't in chain territory anymore or at least out of their sphere of influence. However the chain was consistently in the rest of the season at different parts of the galaxy butting heads with the federation on numerous fronts so it seems they had a wider influence then earlier implied. It also feels like Burnham or Book should have at least come across some federation ships if the chain and the federation were at odds so much. I know it was said earlier in the season that earth and I guess by proxy Vulcan was to far away but that distance and the size of the galaxy seemed to have been forgotten later in the season even when dealing with even non spore drive ships.
@@Bitchslapper316 The warp drive scale seems to have been upgraded as well. It's been nearly a thousand years and one would think that transwarp drive was commonplace but it looks like warp (or super warp) drive is still the fashionable way to get around the galaxy. It appears that the chain was significantly formidable and was kept under tow by Ocyrus but once she was killed this chain fractured into smaller parts so, there strength has diminished and given starfleet more influence in the galaxy. Now that they have the dilithium planet to feed the starved members of the federation and it's allies the galaxy has a renewed sense of hope that the federation will come back together and I think that's were Discovery season 4 will concentrate it's focus on. Discovery's spore drive is still in play and gives Discovery a unique mission to help mitigate the fractured federation since the burn. I don't see how Discovery's spore drive isn't a part of Starfleets mission to help it's former worlds unite with the federation.
@@EliasKaydanius Learn something about the future and then apply that knowledge in the past to change the outcome of the future. For example jump into the future to find what the lottery numbers will be, jump back to your original time, and play those lottery numbers and win. You changed the future because you only won because you knew in advance what numbers to play.
@@Tim.Stotelmeyer.2984 That's different than what's being said here. They're saying that the very act of traveling forward in time, even permanently with no plans or even ability to go back is illegal, as then the past would be changing the future, even though it'd be more like the past changing the present or the present changing the future, which is just how time works.
@@voltronimusprime3833 I disagree but your approach is definitely much better and useful in emergencies ( if the tech ever works ). Live Forever and Prosper, Voltronimus Prime.
People from the past changing the future would not be banned because that is indeed what we all do. What would be banned would be information from the present being used to change the past. Above all, temporal restrictions is to preserve your own past so as not to change yourself. The crew of Discovery are not criminals but returning to the past would be a crime, basically Burnham's mother is a temporal criminal but only to the AI's in a lifeless future. In a temporal war, each faction is a criminal to the other as each faction is fighting to preserve the past which lead to their existence, it would be a war of one possibility versus another when only one could exist, however if the many worlds theorem is correct and there have been Star Trek episodes shoeing the existence of such quantum realities, there would be no temporal conflict as all possibilities could exist in different quantum realities and even an attempt to modify the history if another reality as the Kro Mags were doing in Sliders would only spawn off more quantum realities both where they succeeded and where they didn't succeed. There simply isn't a reason for a temporal conflict to exist in Star Trek.
The whole "Temporal Accords" drop-in exposition bit just leads me to believe that Discovery is eventually gonna end up changing the past somehow to save the future of the Federation. And probably making the whole galaxy worse off somehow. LOL
Who says they have not all ready, after all there idea with in time story that no matter how much one trys the change the future , things may end up the same or worse.
So at no point, since time travel became common did anyone go forward in a time ship see that the burn happened or how to prevent it? The time agency is possibly the most incompetent agency in the galaxy.
Its possible forward time travel became impossible after the Temporal Wars due to just how messed up the timelines were. Not to mention it would essentially create a singularity paradox if you were able to travel toward in time to foresee future events. Time travel as a narrative plot device works best if it only works backwards from the point it was created.
If those laws against time travel exist and you travel into the future then the people in the future would prevent you from going back into your "present" / e.g. the past to tell them about what you learned.
Easily explained by Picard-esque ban on synthetics - making artificial so distinctly artificial, that it does not fall into uncanny valley and is easily discernable from organics.
Actions aren't criminal retrospectively. And the temporal agents didn't disclose future events on mass, so no one in the past could know about future laws.
@P Mason Right but if an honest to goodness caveman fell through a time rift and killed someone with his club in panic, he wouldn't be treated to a criminal trial a face either jailtime or death because, either he'd be considered insane and be taken in for treatment, or, if we knew for a fact he was from 10000 BC or whatever, there'd be no legal expectation for him to suddenly compose himself as a 21st century man would
@P Mason Only if he kept doing it after arriving in the present. At the time he was a slave trader in the past it was legal, so he did nothing wrong legally speaking. Marijuana being legalized has not freed all the people who were imprisoned for possession while it was illegal. If it is made illegal again in those areas, all the people who were selling it while it was legal will not suddenly be thrown in jail for selling it while it was legal. They would only face charges if they continued after it was illegal again. As the original post stated actions aren't criminal retrospectively. If they were it would be chaos and you could never know if your actions were legal or not. This plot development is completely absurd.
Considering how temporal travel would’ve been as common as transwarp drives during the height of the temporal wars (ie rare but not super-rare), I’d imagine Discovery’s presence to be more like “temporal trespassing”, which would be an active crime even if they arrived accidentally and one-way.
"Subspace relays went down...We're having trouble finding Each other" Uh, if you know planet A is around Star X, than you know how to find each other. You use pulsars and their known frequencies to navigate. We can LITERALLY map out space right now without having traveled it based on Pulsars. Like what sh*t writers wrote this?
@@charmaeleon It's just poor writing. They heard "subspace relays" mentioned in classical Trek and threw it in as a random line, without understanding how the in-universe system of subspace relays works.
weren't pulsar navigation something relatively new in being proven possible? I believe it acts as a sextant to, not a map. I would think that having different locational data and computing a route between those points is highly complex, as it would require utilizing multiple forms of Pulsar information. There is after all, a lot of neutron stars. Sure Star Trek is sci-fi and what not, so they could have this tech. How ever I don't think most of its science was founded on newer principles after its inception. That is just sci-fi for ya though. If anything, perhaps those subspace relays were the intended device that utilized pulsar navigation. If they were down, it would be improbable to navigate to certain locations. You would need the on board computers to work the data, and if the data doens't exist. Then you would need to input it manually, which could result in major errors and death. Not sure how warp space jumps work, but its really all the realm of fiction. So if it works or not works, doesn't really matter.
@@yummychips_ Pulsars only really have 3 useful pieces of info - how loud they are, the frequency of the pulses, and how much they're slowing down. With that alone and a database of a couple hundred pulsars which could fit even in a floppy, there should be no issue at all computing your position to within the accuracy of a lightyear or less, which at least tells you which star system you're in. For the case of real life, it's only recently that we've tried using them to get a position fix down to kilometer-level precision, which is much harder to do indeed.
What if Discovery is no longer in its original timeline? It's now in a alternate timeline where discovery was destroyed but it had no spore drive and there was no control threat.
I think the discovery (the ship) is in a temporal loop. I don't think the spore drive was invented by starfleet in the 2200's. I think it is created in the 3180's where they are at now using the sphere and SB-19 data as an answer for the burn. Starfleet will realize this and send the discovery (the ship not the crew) back 1000 years to ensure the past and the future play out the same. That would explain why the spore drive was never reinvented in the past and it would explain why the discovery was sitting in the past empty in the trek short.
Some sources say that it was labeled as "Destroyed" to cover up its tech and such, because if it was labeled as "Missing in action" people might go looking for it and might find things leading to spore drives and such. Thats also why they wouldnt say anything about the drive in its log. They dont want anyone else using it so they dont want them to know it exists.
The Admiral wants Discovery's Spore Drive, Section 31 want Burnham's suit. To get both, they are going through Georgiou, who they want as an Agent, willing or not. Anyone else think they plan to use Georgiou's proven ability and intelligence to rebuild the Federation through force, even against her own conscious will? Problem is, nobody but Stamets really understands the Spore Drive and Mycelial Network. On top of which, he can only navigate it thanks to his injection of Tardigrade DNA. Even given it's been 932 years, I doubt Starfleet can just pull a Tardigrade out of space and time to get it's DNA-and Stamets understanding of the Mycelial Network and the Spore Drive are unique. Literally nobody can replicate what he does. Rebuilding the Federation using Spore Drives and the former Empress as a leader until she's no longer useful? The future just got worse...
The Red Angel Suit has it's uses, but it creates wormholes, which in turn is time travel. Not the best thing to break right now. The Spore Drive, as you said, can only be operated if the helmsman is injected with a serum of Tardigrade DNA. Anyone that tries it with out said DNA, would be fried from one jump. If the current Fed are operating in a "Survival" mode right now, then they will kill anyone that gets in their way. I agree with you, the future just got a whole lot worse.
Section 31 has never technically been a member of or a faction of Star fleet. They are and have always been a dangerous extremist group hell bent on their own adgenda. Most captains and senior officers prefer not to deal with them, as a fleet admiral they’ve approached me and I’ve rebuffed them. Star Fleet has its own intelligence arm and we use it. It wouldn’t surprise me if section 31 was behind the burn. I don’t trust them, I haven’t since the dominion war
In general I love Admiral Vance but his actions here were questionable. He doesn't take into account the benefits of keeping a well established crew together, something he later realises.
Odd that a medical hologram from the far future compared to The Doctor and the holograms seen in Picard would have such a disturbing, mechanical voice. Using it as a lie detector and a diagnostic tool would be dodgy as its mannerisms and voice would put one on edge, rendering any readings it takes faulty as they likely do not match what would have been the subject’s baseline regarding things like pulse, temperature, chemical makeup, etc.
@@Owl_Space Maybe if the 32nd Century Starfleet personnel only knew their holograms and not the ones we’re used to, I could maybe see them being okay with that busted-radio voice. Kinda like how 24th century characters are probably not too put off by Data’s skin or eye color. That said, idk. I still feel like it’d be incredibly uncomfortable and rather feels like a downgrade when they used to have holograms that could pass for humans (hello, Doctor).
I suspect there was some backsliding as a result of the Burn. It's also possible there's a cultural bias against AI's looking too human, possibly a relic of the Synthizoid uprising.
First rule of time travel. Protect your self from changes in the past. You can't effectively police time travel. If you aren't protected from time travel. Your base of operations needs to be effectively outside spacetime.
first rule of time travel. find will ph.d nobel physicist to be the technical support for your writers. changing the past doesn't change the future, the act only adds another separate alternative reality. Ask Sean Carroll or Sir Roger Penrose.
The guardian of forever that is how we can clear all this shit up the guardian, or the Q fixing all of this burnham erased I like Saru hes a good captain.... I like him and that means a lor coming from an old spacedog like me
Admiral: The temporal accords make it a crime for time travellers from the past to alter the future. Saru: You are under arrest admiral for trying to alter my future. Your chair has been moving you forward in time at one minute per minute making you a time traveller also.
I really like the admirals uniform, say what you want about Discovery but it really is well designed. I've actually always thought of Discovery's style as a visual-reboot and it never really bothered me that things look different than other entries in the franchise.
They also have a very artistic team working on the space ship designs. Although I didn't care for season 1 we got about a dozen unique different federation ship designs. We haven't seen that in any star trek series to date.
@@Bitchslapper316 Yeah they might be "ugly" in some cases but they're diverse and not the usual shape Starfleet designs have in earlier Trek entries, and honestly they designed new ships instead of reusing old models so even if you don't like them you have to appreciate the effort put into it.
I remember when people bitched at ENT for having time travel be too much of a focus, for its 'temporal cold war' being too outlandish. Well now DIS is throwing all sensibility out the airlock... if the ship had airlocks and not a single forcefield...
The temporal agent known only as Daniels was an operative from the 31st century and a major player in the Temporal Cold War. Daniels had frequent interactions with the crew of Enterprise NX-01 in the 2150s and often assisted them in preventing temporal incursions by various factions in the Cold War. How did Danials not warn Archer about the Burn?
Perhaps by ending the war, the timeline reset after Daniels left Archer, the burn happened, and Daniels wasn’t allowed to warn anyone in the past because of the Temporal Accords?
There wouldn't have been a point to it. Archer wouldn't have been able to steer events in a different direction, even if he tried. By the time of STD and TOS, he was at least an elderly man if not straight up in the grave. No-one beyond his crew would've believed him, either. Maybe except Section 31. Maybe that's who Daniels works for, given his choice of colour in his attire.
Unless I'm mistaken, it is mentioned in one of the episodes that the Burn happened only about 120 or so years before Discovery arrived in that era. What good would it have done to warn Archer about the Burn, when there was nothing he could have done about it anyway.
@@generaljoe3447 Archer was more than likely dead by the time of TOS and STD. This was supposedly about 100 years after NX-01. The general consensus is 100 years from Archer to Kirk, 100 years from Kirk to Picard
@@brianmcdonald6519 That's what I'm saying. Archer wouldn't have been able to do anything about it. I only put in the option he might've been alive cos of how advanced medical tech is in the Federation, even at its inception, but yeah. The more likely option is that he's long since dead, so my point still stands.
2:38 That war was caused by Noye along with his Tuterian/Sphere Builder, Vorgon, Nakhul, and Terran allies. All because we tried to bring back Romulus during the Iconian War resulting in alterations to the timeline. The Tuterians were assimilated by the Borg thus Noye's wife ceased to exist, but her log entries did not. His quest for vengeance ranged from the 22nd century to the 29th century ending at the Battle of Procyon V in the 26th century. No wonder they decided to give in to the Tholians and make all time travel illegal.
Actually, star trek online is not considered canon to the shows/films. It ties into them, and IIRC CBS/star trek owners do talk to the game devs a lot, but they aren't explicitly canon. What they are referring to is Enterprise, which had the Temporal Cold War. This is the origin/reference of the Temporal war in STO.
I hate how the admiral is made to be the bad guy here, and how "St. Michael" is displayed as a paragon. 1: The admiral is right. He has absolutely nothing to corroborate their story. Try to put yourselves in his position, and ask yourselves if you'd just trust random strangers like that. 2: Michael's attitude "Fuck you, I'll do what I want and you had better like it" is what caused the Klingon war and subsequent hundreds of thousands - at least - Federation casualties. I'm sure I have more reasons, but I'll post them as they come to me.
While the Admiral may be right about not being able to corroborate their story, the entire 'they are criminals for breaking temporal law' and the rest was just garbage nonsense along with the "i can't trust you even though i have an AI that can tell me if you're lying" and it's less sociable than the doctor from Voyager, but 'it's more advanced...." I agree with you about the rest.
@@Slayer398 - I don't see why it's bullshit, though? One can be convinced one is telling the truth and still not be. Also, ignorance of the law does not mean you won't get charged (though you will likely face less severe charges)
Lie, cheat, steal, murder, war, abide by nothing...but the temporal laws yeah we all agree to abide by those because that would be wrong and we could get punished.
2:51 by that very definition, everyone in the universe is violating that law at every second... People from the past are ALWAYS shaping the future, at every second
I imagine not, given his human name, and the lack of any distinguishing features that might make him look Bajoran, such as an ear ring or a Bajoran face.
You know why I was swayed to believe it was a Bajoran? It was the uniform' the insignia and two flaps near the arms look like the Bajoran suits used in DS9 to me. Then again, they probably would have called him a Constable or Major in hindsight.
@@lumberluc Not every member of a species shares the same beliefs. Ro Laren in particular was very non-spiritual and looked on a lot of Bajoran beliefs with disdain. (Until she thought she'd died, of course.)
I've seen a few comments here to the tune of "Why would something from the past even be a threat to the future, why would that be a law?" While things from the past are certainly less likely to be a threat to the future simply by being there (Discovery's antiquated offensive and defensive capabilities pre-refit (other than the spore drive) were somewhat akin to that scene in TNG of someone attempting to use a laser weapon against the Enterprise); I imagine the law was INTENDED more to criminalize the act of going into the future to retrieve information and/or technology and then *returning* to the past. One-way trips to the future MAY be (provisionally) fine; but the rub here is that Discovery has *several* unexplained and undocumented technologies. They SAY it was the red-angel suit which enabled time travel, and that it is now gone. But for all Starfleet knows, the spore-drive could achieve the same result, or WAS the temporal technology. And now there's the sphere-data - an equally unknown and potentially temporally active technology. THAT (I think) is what is outlawed; The POTENTIAL of them returning to, and thereby altering, the past. It is why the admiral refused to share any intelligence on 'the burn' (so they can't go back and prevent it / warn about it), and why Starfleet was so quick to refit and integrate the ship and disperse the crew. In refitting the ship they can ensure it is made to be non-temporal, and by dispersing the crew, they make it harder for them to *want* to return to the past - because they would have to leave people behind. This was poorly communicated to us, the audience. I am making a lot of assumptions in the above just for the admiral's statements and actions to make sense, and THAT is where the writing on Discovery tends to flounder. There's trusting your audience, and then there's throwing them in the deep end without even a life preserver handy.
They use sub-space relays that, as far as I can tell, function similar to the spore drive. So I don't think the Borg even know about the Burn. I have no in canon reason why they haven't shown up to take advantage of the Alpha/Beta quadrant being in turmoil, other than they might not know about burn for the aforementioned reasons. As for out behind the scenes reasons, the Borg were Trek most powerful "bad guy" faction and some might not think a ship from the 22nd century would be able to take on 33rd century Borg ships or simply just didn't want to use them as they were kinda used a lot in Voyager and wanted their own "bad guy faction".
Time travel. The fastest and most effective way to ruin any story. You know in any startrek i always skip any episode about time travel or alternative universes. Because its a bad story point that never effects the main story and if they do all sense of meaning and attachment just crumbles. "oh the world is suddenly entirely different" "oh any problem can now be solved with time travel that just get more and more contrived" "Oh look at all the different but similar things you now have 0 emotional attachment to." Pls just ones can we have a scifi story that stays away from that bad trope.
Like 1/4 of the best episodes are time travel. City on the edge of forever. Future's End. Endgame. Trials and Tribbilations. In a mirror Darkly. Carpenter Street. Little Green Men. Time's Arrow. Star Trek 4. Timeless. City on the Edge of Forever.
The writing in this show is a crime. Dispenses entire history and current disposition of Star Fleet: says not at liberty to discuss intelligence. Says #1 priority is that the past can't influence the future: says he's going to re-assign the crew. WTF? Who writes this crispiness?
Funny to think about the fact that even a hundred thousand years of knowledge assembled still won't account for the other 13,5 billion years before that :P
How can you hold people from the past responsible for breaking a law that hasn't been written yet in their time
clearly someone has never watched doctor who.
@@idcgaming518 Doctor who Doctor poo
Statues.
you can't, unless you want your country to suddenly be classified as a terrorist occupied nation in desperate need of liberation by NATO and the U.S armed forces. In explanation. ex post facto criminalization is also prohibited by Article 7 of the European Convention on Human Rights, Article 15(1) of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, and Article 9 of the American Convention on Human Rights.
@@idcgaming518 unfortunately, in addition to being a pile of shit that only cringey hormonal teenagers and sexually frustrated women watch, doctor who is a terribly poor source of info on how governments and laws work.
I completely understand the admiral here. From his point of view he's protecting Starfleet from a possible temporal threat and gathering up as much information on this weird warp drive made out of mushrooms this 1000 year old ship has.
*the shroom drive is popular with all the cool kids and aliens...the admiral should know that by now*
eh he was also being a Reddit tier A-hole too
@@scottmantooth8785 This was a convent bit of lore that ranking officers seem to forget. lets not forget spok is autistic now.
Let's not forget this is Star Trek. For all the admiral knows this is Species 8472 running some plot.
When the AI asked if she was prone to emotional exaggeration I immediately laughed and said “you’re damn right she is”.
“50 years ago chair legs were outlawed along with lawyers”
That sounds like a viable sacrifice.
Makes a Roomba’s job a lot easier
@@Nyx773 in the future they are called BiatchBots.
The lawn game where you throw balls? I kid
What’s this from?
I love that they addressed all the time travel/temporal cold war stuff that was always popping up in ENT & VOY, by making it clear there was a century or so awhile back that just went /nuts/ with the time travel, to the point where it's been firmly outlawed. A neat way to acknowledge what came before while wrapping it all up!
*as if they would be okay with traveling to other dimensions or other iterations of the multiverse and gathering unique technologies that only existed there and bringing it back to augment their on ships or weapons...(rolls eyes)*
They need to make a law limiting the use of time travel in movies ;)
I've recently embarked on a chronological rewatch of all Star Trek ever made, and it was actually quite surprising to me just how many Enterprise nods there are in Discovery!
Clearly the admiral has never heard of an ex post facto law, and how many jurisdictions prohibit them. Since the 32nd Century laws surrounding time travel were not around in the 23rd Century, you legally cannot apply those laws to the crew of the USS Discovery.
And how is a one-way trip to the future any different from a sleeper ship or being put in stasis?
@@Janoha17 My guess is it's because using a sleeper ship or being put in stasis still allows for the normal flow of time to occur, unlike using the Red Angel suit.
Using the Red Angel suit to travel hundreds of years into the future in a matter of seconds is a bit different.
Regardless, you cannot retroactively apply a law to an action that happened before said law was passed.
@@astrofan1993 Not that different, instead of this suite, the Discovery could also just use the time dilation caused by the next best black hole. Does not even need a black hole, just accelerating close enough to lightspeed without warpdrive or any protection against time dilation, that happens automatically, if you are fast enough.
Exactly, plus my understanding of the temporal Cold War is that it was future factions going back in time to change history. The Discovery crew were already in the past and went into the future. They didn’t change anything in the past other that what they would’ve changed anyway and once they came to the future everything they did was sanctioned from Star Fleet and the Federation so technically they did not violate the temporal accords.
Says who?
Who is the stronger party in the situation?
You tell them "erm you are not allowed to apply those laws"
"Actually 900 years of weapon development tell me I can"
"Hey Cicero, good job saving the republic."
"By the way, we've just decided what you've done is now a crime and we're banishing you"
"Are you prone to emotional exaggeration?"...that's an understatement.
At least they are aware lol
That’s some serious lampshading
omg that would have been epic if she had started sniffling..."Wh--What do you mean emotional--I am NOT emotional!" *starts bawling*
I'm surprised she didn't start crying when he said that.
@@mackgiver875 I haven't kept up since I stopped watching in season 1. When did Micky become emotional?
For some reason Temporal Agents never messed with Kirk or the Guardian.
It was those crazy-colored uniforms they wore. One look and they think they're tripping on a five-year mission into Wonderland.
Guessing it's because they knew the outcome and there was no Temporal Accords by that era.
@@Stranglars1 Kirk was after Archer (even though Kirk's series was first on TV) so the Accords would have been in place.
Maybe they didn’t exist during Kirk’s time.
@@travisjames3517 it wouldn't matter since they are time travellers. If they meddled in Archer's time, they could meddle in Kirk's.
All organic life would be dead? Nah Q would never let that happen he be too damn bored
Are you sure about that?
@@Horrorcrusher8312 the Universe is pretty big.
@@cormacmacsuibhne2867 And the Q Continuum can be most capricious in their travels.
Or maybe Q would let that happen and if he gets bored he'll reverse it or do something idk😂
Q got the whole Multiverse,by judging what this particular universe became... he´d let it go :D
From the desert of the mummy and resident evil and now a commander, this dude is awesome.
Remember that Lucius Malfoy was the skipper of Discovery too
wait this guy was the Medjay guy?
Oded Fehr is a great actor, yet I feel his SFRegs character tend to compress ones ideals into a formed predestined Star Fleet choiced attitude. How does one palaver with a centuries old seemingly amebic shaped entity that is 200X larger than the ship, or a cloud of entropic energies pushng around the ship until you design to say please stop? and a cartoon ish facade greets your remark? Lets knot forget that entropic randomly banding fleeting nodes of lights and action, that does turn out to be another presence, quite unknown to corporal beings! And the simple answer is within ALLof us, every day! Harmonics, harmony with bands of lights sounds and thoughts!
Travelling forward in time to change the future is called aging.
Yeah, that line seemed bizarre to me too. If Discovery was intent on going back in time with future knowledge to exploit, that'd be one thing. But as that's clearly not the case, I'm genuinely curious about what that means or if he's just making shit up on the fly.
Discovery writers wiff again.
Not if you do it all at once. :)
Hey guys I time traveled from the past to… oh you… you did that already? welp this was kinda wasted, uh… cya
Yeah, but there is a time skip involved :) Your body on July 1st does not belong at July 31st because it did not experience the changes associated with the days in between.
Holo: "Are you prone to emotional exageration?"
Burnam: *Starts Crying*
Just realized that was an undertone of racism. The hologram just asked a black woman if she got angry???
Joking acknowledged... it's not exaggeration if you're _really_ feeling it...no matter how uncomfortable your emotional freedom makes people who are "more in control".
@@austinperry1671 She is a black woman that constantly gets angry. Is this whole show racist too?
Did they really just show us an AI that can spot every possible sign of someone lying then refuse to believe anything they say? I wonder why the writing on Discovery is criticised so much....
To be fair, he does seem to be implying that he is not saying they are lying. It's that he has nothing to actually prove their story to anybody else.
Otherwise, yeah everything is Michael saving the day or just weird. Like those chairs.
Gotta love how in a galaxy after the Burn, they continue using power intensive systems. "Nah instead of just having a chair that doesn't use any power at all, we'll have FLOATING CHAIRS. That eternally drain power because they float!"
The writers appearing mistook "The future" as "Everything floats and isn't connected".
I urge you to google the difference between lying and being mistaken
@@TheOnlyGBeast Have them test the whole crew that way then and the ship logs. That should sum up all the necessary proof.
I'm wondering how they can have AI that can detect lies, looks like an actual person yet has a voice that's worse than Siri.
@@methos-ey9nf probably by design to remind people they are holograms and not people.
If jumping to the future was a crime for Discovery then a Temporal Agent would have appeared to prevent it. Since they didn't then the Temporal Agents would have decided that Discovery was meant to jump to the future.
Or rather they allowed it to happen to ensure that all life would survive
Or they couldn't.
If not jumping really meant the end of all live then there would be noone to stop them from jumping. It's a bit of a paradox.
In general I think that (mostly) accidental jumps from the past to the future are not a crime and they'd have to quarantine the people from the past as to not contaminate the past with knowledge from the future when you send them back.
One of the best written work around. They jumped far enough that there is no longer a temporal relationship with SF but at the same time started far enough back that enough physical history would have been forgotten by the era that it would have been relevant.
The only captain I trust who could truly understand this situation is Janeway.
She would have ate his lunch.
She’s probably considered a time war criminal with all the stuff she did.
Sadly those writers are gone. The woke writers today only put franchises to sleep.
Quite
"Okay, let's get started before my headache gets any worse."
People from the past are criminals for changing the future, by being in the present? Very, very, TENSE...
In a way yes according to the Temporal War peace accord. Remember that during the Temporal Cold War some of the factions were from the 26th century and some from the 30th century.
Very, very stupid. By definition, everything we do affects the future.
@@kettch777 Ya but only discovery is in the future from the past, they are not in their original timeline anymore, because their timeline, all life was extinguished. They already protected the future, now all they can do is bring their knowledge of the past to correct the original timeline. The wars existed in many different timelines, which effected the main timeline, thats why they all don't know how the burn happened.
Am I the only one who appreciates the terrible joke here? Just me?
Every person is necessarily 'from the past' and mere existence in the presence is how the future unfolds.
Seems to me that disobeying unethical or immoral orders from officious Starfleet bureaucrats or warmongering Starfleet admirals is _entirely_ in keeping with the best traditions of the Federation. And captains Kirk, Spock, Picard, and Riker would agree.
I remember there was a STNG episode a Admiral did something wrong and Picard caught him and was sent back to Starfleet headquarters on Earth and the Admiral yelled at Picard that he had “Lots of friends at Starfleet” first thing I thought was wow so in the future, Starfleet is no different then political parties where if you have friends in high places you can get away with almost anything
@@dawicked2k8 Starfleet is even worse than most modern governments actually
As well as Captains Sulu and Checkov
Don't forget Sisko
@@methos-ey9nf Yes, well, Sisko is the one who knocks. It's _him_ giving the unethical and immoral orders.
Sperging AI: "You can't lie to me"
Five seconds later: "I can't prove anything you're saying is the truth"
Just because the strangers believe what they say does not make it the truth.
That's not what was said at all lol.
@Stupid Bitch No. He never said they were lying. He said he has TWO truths in front of him and he needed verification of thier story before he would risk the safety of the federation.
The two truths are.
A) They are not lying to him about the story
B) Starfleet records say nothing about thier mission or the spore drive and that their ship was destroyed 900+ years ago.
@@Bitchslapper316 I feel like everyone here agrees, but doesn't realise it...
@@davidtucker9498 perhaps
0:46 A thousand years and they're still using fluorescent ceiling lights.
willing to bet those are led's now
@@Phil9874 unless they are built a lot better than today's(and flourescents aren't) then it would be waste.
@@jaydeleon8094 the industry mostly uses led's at this point
@@Phil9874 which industy and at what level?
@@jaydeleon8094 Architecture like everyone I know uses leds for interior lighting because of how efficient and long lasting they are.
And this Admiral died on earth and then risen as Osiris the outlaw guardian.
Destiny 2??
I can't believe I didn't notice it was the same voice.
I would have laughed my ass off if he mentioned something regarding mercury or robots. I can't unsee him as also being osiris.
This show has always delivered in terms of visual design and general aesthetic. I’ll give them that.
I only wish the writing were of an equal caliber to match.
Tucheh Stone the casting as well, for some reason theres some things that are not Star Trek with that crew, why is dat lady wearing make up, ive watch DS9 and Voyager but i dont remenber Starfleet females wearing so much make up, maybe im wrong, i dont know, The Discovery crew is just wack
They have occasional delivered in that area but the costuming has been pretty consistently clownish.
@@dawicked2k8 they're not from that era
They're from the era before Kirk
Frankly, they're not wearing enough make-up
AI much more advince , but there bed side manner still could use some work.
"More advance" but now sound like shit. What wrong with his auditory codes?!
You'd think they would have ironed that EMH mk1 wrinkle out by now.
*Advance (I'll accept that was a typo)
*Their (no excuse)
@@vzerby That imperfection was left in to identify the hologram clearly.
Back in DS9 they experimented with Holocoms, but they did not work out in screenplay - it was impossible to distinguish a beamed over and holocom character.
Stargate managed by simply adding a imperfection to the hologramm. Discovery did the same in season 1.
They’re not fully functional.…
Oh wait, wrong kind of “bedside manner”. My bad.
Feels like the Admiral is just trying to keep them there to get as mush help as possible... a ship like Discovery would certainly be a great help for them.
Plus wouldn't the law he quotes not apply to them, it only applies to him since they aren't from this era. Really its only that he can't help them travel back without breaking the law himself. So feels like since he has to uphold the law, and he also wants the ship, he sees it as a win-win for him.
Also feels like the only reason why he wants to reassigne them is so he can just take over the ship.
there is no feasible way a ship with 900 year old experimental technology could even remotely be of help. That would be like saying a spanish galleon could be of assistance to a modern battleship in a modern fight. The only way that could be possible is if there was next to no technological advancement in said 900 years. For reference, irl computers have only been around like 80ish years, but your cellphone alone is like 20 trillion times more powerful then the first mechanical computer. Modern super cars have 1300+ horse power, whereas the very first car didnt even have 1 full horse power and that was over 130ish years of advancement.
Assuming even the bare minimum amount of advancement suggests that a reffiting isnt even going to help: the ship is basically shiny scrap. The framework is obselete, the hull is likely not even remotely close to standard, nothing on the ship is likely to be compatible with modern in universe technology... So the writers mean for us to assume that the technology of the discovery (As experimental as it is) is somehow advanced enough to be compatible with technology after 900 years of advancement. Which just isnt feasible.
@@ThreeGoddesses Dunno, your analogy with the spanish galleon and modern battleship doesn't really fit here, since its not really about fighting ability, this "900 year old ship" has the ability to instantly travel anywhere without the use of dilithium in a time where dilithium is hard to come by. A technology thats been errased and hidden for even the highest ranking admiral. Plus the Discovery does get weapons, armor, sensors, and systems upgrades so it can deal with the newer threats. A full refit.
@@ClaudiusDK Its not about fighting ability, although that analogy was more geared towards conflict. The idea was to paint a picture of technological differences. At some point, instead of using a galleon, it would be more efficient to just make a new ship with modern materials.
I mean, modern naval ships get decommissioned after just 30, 40 years of service. And its really hard to believe given the available technology of the time that ANY tech on the discovery is somehow still better then anything 900 years later.
Where did the relevant tech research go? Why didnt the federation go "Hm, our experimental starship full of experimental technology dissappeared without a trace, maybe we need to make a new one or move on to better projects cuz clearly its dead or in the hands of enemies".
The premise is dumb as shit, its full of plotholes, and the fact that even the basic ass frame is somehow still not improved....
I mean, how are 900-years-in-the-future ship frames not made out of lighter, more durable materials? The wiring, the.... everything. Nothing makes sense. And a retrofit of new tech into an old system just doesnt work, too many things would need to be replaced, the cost would be too high. Just make a new ship. It would cost less to reverse engineer anything the old ship had that was somehow still valuable, and put it on an entirely different vessel.
This entire situation waves its hands so much Im surprised the writer didnt break something.
@@ThreeGoddesses Honestly, this is true, even without the tech bit.
I remember reading the refit of the Discovery and the retraining of the crew lasted like... a few weeks to a month or two? How in the hell do you get people caught up entirely on history and tech in such a short period of time? The refit of the TOS enterprise into the TMP variant took at the least, 2 years and involved basically rebuilding the entire ship from scratch.
Yet the Discovery can be totally overhauled in weeks without demolishing the entire ship? As you said and my brother brought up in our own talk about it, even the tubes the wires/power go through are different sized. Though he compared I think it was a WW2 submarine to a modern one. You can't just shove in the computer systems and functions without rebuilding the entire thing.
Factor in, IIRC, they label the Discovery as "Discovery A" to hide the fact it was a time traveled ship, you'd have to make the ENTIRE crew be able to pass that test too.
@@daefaron I guess refit methods and starship repair didn't get better over 900 years ? And you both avoided the most important part ..the spore drive that can deliver the ship anywhere when basically all others were stuck close to home with no warp ... Its Sci fi and star trek for christ sake your not watching a non fiction documentary on navy vessels .. just enjoy it or don't watch hahaha
would love it if Robert Picardo reprised his role in the next season. he could technically still be around
Heck there could be two doctors. The backup from "Living Witness" should be returning now.
@@Tamamo-no-Bae the problem with that episode is that by the time it takes place the Federation would have expanded well in to the Delta quadrant and while the people of the planet wouldn't be members because they hadn't gotten their shit together enough to join until the end they definitely would be aware of it.
@@Tamamo-no-Bae While I would love for this to happen, his ship would of been destroyed by the Burn.
@@lima6638 Not if his ship wasn't in warp. Then again the whole Burn thing is still really dumb.
too focking OLD!!!
I somehow feel that Burnham may be responsible for the Burn. Maybe when she sent the Red Angle suit back into the wormhole, the destruction she programmed into it resulted in the Burn.
Editing 11 months later: to everyone commenting after the episode aired… no shit Sherlock.
She is the center of the universe after all. The burn.......ham.
Red Angel says,'take a Burn, Starfleet'.
@@sitoudien9816 That's you taking Alaunt's supposition as to what might be and basing your own subtle hatred for the character on it.
I don't see how, given that the suit went back to the 23rd century (as evidenced by the last signal seen by Pike, Spock, et.al) in the last scene of the season 2 finale. And making Burnham responsible for the "Burn" feels like a bit of a red herring to me. Remember...she's not the only person named "Burnham" who time traveled to roughly around this future era. I honestly think her mother caused it somehow through the last jump we saw her make in S2. Maybe the time crystal in her suit ruptured causing a chain reaction that spread along some resonance wavelength, passing through active dilithium chambers anywhere & everywhere, causing them to detonate? I have no idea. But it IS fun to speculate the nerdiness of what happened! 🤓
its obvious. you cant spell burnham without burn. hahaha
Kirk's report on the incident with the Guardian is probably the reason tje Federation HAS temporal agents.
naw, it wouldn't be Gary 7's responsibility
That means there are probably species working on board Discovery who's member worlds are no longer a part of this future federation. I'm sure there will be an episode or two in the future to reflect that.
I doubt it, there is no specific number but as far as I can tell there were only 30 some odd federation member worlds from the time discovery came from. I don't know why Burnham looks shocked when she hears 38. If this was a ship from a TNG/STP era I could see this being an issue because they had 150-200 member worlds by that point.
@@Bitchslapper316 Burnham did get there a full year before Discovery came through. I'm thinking in that timeframe she learned a lot about the federation and it's home worlds, so, she would have known the number and when Admiral Vance told her and Saru the current status she genuinely felt a sense of great loss.
@@KnowTrentTimoy Yeah that would make sense.
A bit off topic. Now that I think about it scale of the galaxy didn't seem very consistent or perhaps the scale of the chain and the federation, I'm not sure. When Book and Burnham got to earth on the discovery she said something along the lines of "new quadrant fresh start" implying they weren't in chain territory anymore or at least out of their sphere of influence. However the chain was consistently in the rest of the season at different parts of the galaxy butting heads with the federation on numerous fronts so it seems they had a wider influence then earlier implied. It also feels like Burnham or Book should have at least come across some federation ships if the chain and the federation were at odds so much. I know it was said earlier in the season that earth and I guess by proxy Vulcan was to far away but that distance and the size of the galaxy seemed to have been forgotten later in the season even when dealing with even non spore drive ships.
@@Bitchslapper316 The warp drive scale seems to have been upgraded as well. It's been nearly a thousand years and one would think that transwarp drive was commonplace but it looks like warp (or super warp) drive is still the fashionable way to get around the galaxy. It appears that the chain was significantly formidable and was kept under tow by Ocyrus but once she was killed this chain fractured into smaller parts so, there strength has diminished and given starfleet more influence in the galaxy. Now that they have the dilithium planet to feed the starved members of the federation and it's allies the galaxy has a renewed sense of hope that the federation will come back together and I think that's were Discovery season 4 will concentrate it's focus on. Discovery's spore drive is still in play and gives Discovery a unique mission to help mitigate the fractured federation since the burn. I don't see how Discovery's spore drive isn't a part of Starfleets mission to help it's former worlds unite with the federation.
i mean... humans aren't in the federation either at that point
Where the hell is leiutenant Braxton to fix all this mess
Dead. He died serving his time in the Feds.
About 300 years prior to this.
@@andromeda5414 mans is literally a time agent
@@LickMyMusketBallsYankee Who operates in the past and was eventually arrested.
It's so weird hearing Osiris in Star Trek, but here we are.
“Preventing people from the past from changing the future.” Wow. What could go wrong with that?
"people from the past changing the future" is how normal time flow works. what the hell is this writing?
@@EliasKaydanius Some putz's attempt at making drama or presenting the protagonists with an obstacle, writers aren't perfect.
@@EliasKaydanius Learn something about the future and then apply that knowledge in the past to change the outcome of the future.
For example jump into the future to find what the lottery numbers will be, jump back to your original time, and play those lottery numbers and win. You changed the future because you only won because you knew in advance what numbers to play.
@@Tim.Stotelmeyer.2984 That's different than what's being said here. They're saying that the very act of traveling forward in time, even permanently with no plans or even ability to go back is illegal, as then the past would be changing the future, even though it'd be more like the past changing the present or the present changing the future, which is just how time works.
@@voltronimusprime3833 I disagree but your approach is definitely much better and useful in emergencies ( if the tech ever works ).
Live Forever and Prosper, Voltronimus Prime.
People from the past changing the future would not be banned because that is indeed what we all do. What would be banned would be information from the present being used to change the past. Above all, temporal restrictions is to preserve your own past so as not to change yourself. The crew of Discovery are not criminals but returning to the past would be a crime, basically Burnham's mother is a temporal criminal but only to the AI's in a lifeless future. In a temporal war, each faction is a criminal to the other as each faction is fighting to preserve the past which lead to their existence, it would be a war of one possibility versus another when only one could exist, however if the many worlds theorem is correct and there have been Star Trek episodes shoeing the existence of such quantum realities, there would be no temporal conflict as all possibilities could exist in different quantum realities and even an attempt to modify the history if another reality as the Kro Mags were doing in Sliders would only spawn off more quantum realities both where they succeeded and where they didn't succeed. There simply isn't a reason for a temporal conflict to exist in Star Trek.
The whole "Temporal Accords" drop-in exposition bit just leads me to believe that Discovery is eventually gonna end up changing the past somehow to save the future of the Federation. And probably making the whole galaxy worse off somehow. LOL
Who says they have not all ready, after all there idea with in time story that no matter how much one trys the change the future , things may end up the same or worse.
Well, they'll find out what caused The Burn and decide to break the rules to save the galaxy because some other big threat will appear.
@@ahdvd I'm assuming them coming to the future is what caused the burn and they will realize they have to go back in order to fix it.
Yes Discovery goes back in time and gives the idea of the jjverse to Abrams thereby destroying the true Star Trek universe
It'll be the real reason why the kelvin timeline exists
I wish Eli was actually the Doctor from Voyager!
So at no point, since time travel became common did anyone go forward in a time ship see that the burn happened or how to prevent it? The time agency is possibly the most incompetent agency in the galaxy.
Its possible forward time travel became impossible after the Temporal Wars due to just how messed up the timelines were. Not to mention it would essentially create a singularity paradox if you were able to travel toward in time to foresee future events. Time travel as a narrative plot device works best if it only works backwards from the point it was created.
If those laws against time travel exist and you travel into the future then the people in the future would prevent you from going back into your "present" / e.g. the past to tell them about what you learned.
@@andromidius Time Travel in general works best when it is mono-directional.
The "advanced AI" holograms are more socially awkward than voyager's doctor and sound robotic? WTF? Have the writers ever watched star trek?
Advanced in terms of technical capabilities, not in terms of social skills.
no no they have not and when they do watch and episode to reference back they Crap on what was.
@@adamlevine6700 wouldn’t you want an AI that’s more like a human
I think Georgiou had the right idea... just blink them out of existence.
Easily explained by Picard-esque ban on synthetics - making artificial so distinctly artificial, that it does not fall into uncanny valley and is easily discernable from organics.
By definition, your presence here has caused a timey wimey ball of stuff. Basically, run.
i keep wanting nemesis and alice to bust through the door fighting
Michael looks like she's just about to start crying again by the end lmao
Oded Fehr as Admiral was genius casting............I have always loved him. One of the best actors to walk this earth.
Actions aren't criminal retrospectively. And the temporal agents didn't disclose future events on mass, so no one in the past could know about future laws.
Exactly like minority report how the hell can I be charge for a crime I didn’t commit
As of yet
@P Mason Right but if an honest to goodness caveman fell through a time rift and killed someone with his club in panic, he wouldn't be treated to a criminal trial a face either jailtime or death because, either he'd be considered insane and be taken in for treatment, or, if we knew for a fact he was from 10000 BC or whatever, there'd be no legal expectation for him to suddenly compose himself as a 21st century man would
@P Mason good question
@P Mason Only if he kept doing it after arriving in the present. At the time he was a slave trader in the past it was legal, so he did nothing wrong legally speaking. Marijuana being legalized has not freed all the people who were imprisoned for possession while it was illegal. If it is made illegal again in those areas, all the people who were selling it while it was legal will not suddenly be thrown in jail for selling it while it was legal. They would only face charges if they continued after it was illegal again. As the original post stated actions aren't criminal retrospectively. If they were it would be chaos and you could never know if your actions were legal or not.
This plot development is completely absurd.
Considering how temporal travel would’ve been as common as transwarp drives during the height of the temporal wars (ie rare but not super-rare), I’d imagine Discovery’s presence to be more like “temporal trespassing”, which would be an active crime even if they arrived accidentally and one-way.
AI: "You have very dusty...cups."
They wouldn't knowing Kirk had already gone thru several temporal shifts. Messing with the Guardian of Forever wouldve been an even bigger Mistake.
"Subspace relays went down...We're having trouble finding Each other"
Uh, if you know planet A is around Star X, than you know how to find each other. You use pulsars and their known frequencies to navigate. We can LITERALLY map out space right now without having traveled it based on Pulsars. Like what sh*t writers wrote this?
i think what they meant was that they could not reach out for them
@@charmaeleon It's just poor writing. They heard "subspace relays" mentioned in classical Trek and threw it in as a random line, without understanding how the in-universe system of subspace relays works.
I've actually used pulsar navigation in two of my books, it is a very efficient form of navigation.
weren't pulsar navigation something relatively new in being proven possible? I believe it acts as a sextant to, not a map. I would think that having different locational data and computing a route between those points is highly complex, as it would require utilizing multiple forms of Pulsar information. There is after all, a lot of neutron stars.
Sure Star Trek is sci-fi and what not, so they could have this tech. How ever I don't think most of its science was founded on newer principles after its inception. That is just sci-fi for ya though.
If anything, perhaps those subspace relays were the intended device that utilized pulsar navigation. If they were down, it would be improbable to navigate to certain locations. You would need the on board computers to work the data, and if the data doens't exist. Then you would need to input it manually, which could result in major errors and death. Not sure how warp space jumps work, but its really all the realm of fiction. So if it works or not works, doesn't really matter.
@@yummychips_ Pulsars only really have 3 useful pieces of info - how loud they are, the frequency of the pulses, and how much they're slowing down. With that alone and a database of a couple hundred pulsars which could fit even in a floppy, there should be no issue at all computing your position to within the accuracy of a lightyear or less, which at least tells you which star system you're in. For the case of real life, it's only recently that we've tried using them to get a position fix down to kilometer-level precision, which is much harder to do indeed.
What if Discovery is no longer in its original timeline?
It's now in a alternate timeline where discovery was destroyed but it had no spore drive and there was no control threat.
I think the discovery (the ship) is in a temporal loop. I don't think the spore drive was invented by starfleet in the 2200's. I think it is created in the 3180's where they are at now using the sphere and SB-19 data as an answer for the burn. Starfleet will realize this and send the discovery (the ship not the crew) back 1000 years to ensure the past and the future play out the same. That would explain why the spore drive was never reinvented in the past and it would explain why the discovery was sitting in the past empty in the trek short.
Some sources say that it was labeled as "Destroyed" to cover up its tech and such, because if it was labeled as "Missing in action" people might go looking for it and might find things leading to spore drives and such. Thats also why they wouldnt say anything about the drive in its log. They dont want anyone else using it so they dont want them to know it exists.
This is the future of the prime timeline.
I like to think that discovery Canonically never happend
@@Bitchslapper316 The spore drive was co-invented by Lieutenant Commander Paul Stamets as part of his work with spores.
The Admiral wants Discovery's Spore Drive, Section 31 want Burnham's suit. To get both, they are going through Georgiou, who they want as an Agent, willing or not. Anyone else think they plan to use Georgiou's proven ability and intelligence to rebuild the Federation through force, even against her own conscious will?
Problem is, nobody but Stamets really understands the Spore Drive and Mycelial Network. On top of which, he can only navigate it thanks to his injection of Tardigrade DNA. Even given it's been 932 years, I doubt Starfleet can just pull a Tardigrade out of space and time to get it's DNA-and Stamets understanding of the Mycelial Network and the Spore Drive are unique. Literally nobody can replicate what he does.
Rebuilding the Federation using Spore Drives and the former Empress as a leader until she's no longer useful? The future just got worse...
The Red Angel Suit has it's uses, but it creates wormholes, which in turn is time travel. Not the best thing to break right now.
The Spore Drive, as you said, can only be operated if the helmsman is injected with a serum of Tardigrade DNA. Anyone that tries it with out said DNA, would be fried from one jump.
If the current Fed are operating in a "Survival" mode right now, then they will kill anyone that gets in their way.
I agree with you, the future just got a whole lot worse.
I see a return through time to pre burn to stop it. A good cliff hanger for next season.
Section 31 has never technically been a member of or a faction of Star fleet. They are and have always been a dangerous extremist group hell bent on their own adgenda. Most captains and senior officers prefer not to deal with them, as a fleet admiral they’ve approached me and I’ve rebuffed them. Star Fleet has its own intelligence arm and we use it. It wouldn’t surprise me if section 31 was behind the burn. I don’t trust them, I haven’t since the dominion war
Clone him slap a brain box boom new navigator.
Grossly bad television by any other name.
In general I love Admiral Vance but his actions here were questionable. He doesn't take into account the benefits of keeping a well established crew together, something he later realises.
@@firstname9954 yes he should indeed have been wary, and cautious. but splitting the crew up was overly drastic.
Isn't that the guy from The Mummy? Man, I'm getting old.
The way Michael speaks is like "how dare you don't know what the sphere data is... But I know, I know everyrhing, I am the best!"
"ENTITLEMENT!!! RAHH!!!"
Odd that a medical hologram from the far future compared to The Doctor and the holograms seen in Picard would have such a disturbing, mechanical voice. Using it as a lie detector and a diagnostic tool
would be dodgy as its mannerisms and voice would put one on edge, rendering any readings it takes faulty as they likely do not match what would have been the subject’s baseline regarding things like pulse, temperature, chemical makeup, etc.
it senses lie particles
To be fair, it would only be disturbing if you weren't used to it. Like say, if you someone from the 22nd century arriving in the 32nd.
@@Owl_Space Maybe if the 32nd Century Starfleet personnel only knew their holograms and not the ones we’re used to, I could maybe see them being okay with that busted-radio voice. Kinda like how 24th century characters are probably not too put off by Data’s skin or eye color.
That said, idk. I still feel like it’d be incredibly uncomfortable and rather feels like a downgrade when they used to have holograms that could pass for humans (hello, Doctor).
I suspect there was some backsliding as a result of the Burn. It's also possible there's a cultural bias against AI's looking too human, possibly a relic of the Synthizoid uprising.
bad writing is a hallmark of Picard and Discovery.
First rule of time travel. Protect your self from changes in the past.
You can't effectively police time travel. If you aren't protected from time travel. Your base of operations needs to be effectively outside spacetime.
first rule of time travel. find will ph.d nobel physicist to be the technical support for your writers.
changing the past doesn't change the future, the act only adds another separate alternative reality. Ask Sean Carroll or Sir Roger Penrose.
The guardian of forever that is how we can clear all this shit up the guardian, or the Q fixing all of this burnham erased I like Saru hes a good captain.... I like him and that means a lor coming from an old spacedog like me
Yeah. Carl is a good guy.
A literal Trial of Osiris
*taps on glass* "Hey fishy-fishy-fishy"
Admiral: The temporal accords make it a crime for time travellers from the past to alter the future. Saru: You are under arrest admiral for trying to alter my future. Your chair has been moving you forward in time at one minute per minute making you a time traveller also.
3:02 : Is that me or they tried to hide a cut with a blur effect ? Look at her badge ...
Wow. It's so well integrated in to the visual effect of the shot in general but I think you're correct. Good spot!
There's no way you can lie to me, but I still don't trust you. :)
Just because you think your telling the truth doesn't actually mean you are, or you can tell a variation of the truth etc etc.
@@Delogros Point taken
I really like the admirals uniform, say what you want about Discovery but it really is well designed. I've actually always thought of Discovery's style as a visual-reboot and it never really bothered me that things look different than other entries in the franchise.
It's a throw back to ST: TMP
They also have a very artistic team working on the space ship designs. Although I didn't care for season 1 we got about a dozen unique different federation ship designs. We haven't seen that in any star trek series to date.
@@Bitchslapper316 Yeah they might be "ugly" in some cases but they're diverse and not the usual shape Starfleet designs have in earlier Trek entries, and honestly they designed new ships instead of reusing old models so even if you don't like them you have to appreciate the effort put into it.
@@xxthexcaliburxx Yep
@@Bitchslapper316 Then why do all the ships look like crap?
Star Trek Discovery's entire existence is by, definition, a crime
I remember when people bitched at ENT for having time travel be too much of a focus, for its 'temporal cold war' being too outlandish.
Well now DIS is throwing all sensibility out the airlock... if the ship had airlocks and not a single forcefield...
Okay. Her's a thought. Discovery needs to ask Bill Nye to play a bow tie wearing hologram.
As much as people might enjoy that, I don’t think Star Trek has celebrity guest stars.
“Top ten celebrities you didn’t notice were in Star Trek”
Uhh, Yes They Do, All The Time
Because it doesn't suck enough already?
@Nobody comments are not funny you troglodyte Hawking is a real scientist.
He wouldn't get away with say this to Captain Kirk
Not at all if anything Kirk and Spock would wipe the floor with this
Kirk would give a speech that would fix their whole backwards society.
I knew I recognized Osiris' VA!
Archer be like *First time?*
The temporal agent known only as Daniels was an operative from the 31st century and a major player in the Temporal Cold War. Daniels had frequent interactions with the crew of Enterprise NX-01 in the 2150s and often assisted them in preventing temporal incursions by various factions in the Cold War.
How did Danials not warn Archer about the Burn?
Perhaps by ending the war, the timeline reset after Daniels left Archer, the burn happened, and Daniels wasn’t allowed to warn anyone in the past because of the Temporal Accords?
There wouldn't have been a point to it. Archer wouldn't have been able to steer events in a different direction, even if he tried. By the time of STD and TOS, he was at least an elderly man if not straight up in the grave. No-one beyond his crew would've believed him, either. Maybe except Section 31. Maybe that's who Daniels works for, given his choice of colour in his attire.
Unless I'm mistaken, it is mentioned in one of the episodes that the Burn happened only about 120 or so years before Discovery arrived in that era. What good would it have done to warn Archer about the Burn, when there was nothing he could have done about it anyway.
@@generaljoe3447 Archer was more than likely dead by the time of TOS and STD. This was supposedly about 100 years after NX-01. The general consensus is 100 years from Archer to Kirk, 100 years from Kirk to Picard
@@brianmcdonald6519 That's what I'm saying. Archer wouldn't have been able to do anything about it. I only put in the option he might've been alive cos of how advanced medical tech is in the Federation, even at its inception, but yeah. The more likely option is that he's long since dead, so my point still stands.
2:38 That war was caused by Noye along with his Tuterian/Sphere Builder, Vorgon, Nakhul, and Terran allies. All because we tried to bring back Romulus during the Iconian War resulting in alterations to the timeline. The Tuterians were assimilated by the Borg thus Noye's wife ceased to exist, but her log entries did not. His quest for vengeance ranged from the 22nd century to the 29th century ending at the Battle of Procyon V in the 26th century. No wonder they decided to give in to the Tholians and make all time travel illegal.
Actually, star trek online is not considered canon to the shows/films.
It ties into them, and IIRC CBS/star trek owners do talk to the game devs a lot, but they aren't explicitly canon.
What they are referring to is Enterprise, which had the Temporal Cold War. This is the origin/reference of the Temporal war in STO.
0:56 Understatement of the century.
0:53 Yes. Yes she is most definitely prone to emotional exaggeration
I hate how the admiral is made to be the bad guy here, and how "St. Michael" is displayed as a paragon.
1: The admiral is right. He has absolutely nothing to corroborate their story. Try to put yourselves in his position, and ask yourselves if you'd just trust random strangers like that.
2: Michael's attitude "Fuck you, I'll do what I want and you had better like it" is what caused the Klingon war and subsequent hundreds of thousands - at least - Federation casualties.
I'm sure I have more reasons, but I'll post them as they come to me.
While the Admiral may be right about not being able to corroborate their story, the entire 'they are criminals for breaking temporal law' and the rest was just garbage nonsense along with the "i can't trust you even though i have an AI that can tell me if you're lying" and it's less sociable than the doctor from Voyager, but 'it's more advanced...."
I agree with you about the rest.
@@Slayer398 - I don't see why it's bullshit, though? One can be convinced one is telling the truth and still not be.
Also, ignorance of the law does not mean you won't get charged (though you will likely face less severe charges)
Who here thinks the burn is related to the ancient AI messege from star trek picard?
2:43 - nice Enterprise nod
Note he said that he acts in accordance to federation “ideals” not regulations
We're taking your ship and uhh upgrading it You will now work for us NO QUESTIONS ·_·
It's like they came up reporting for duty in an outdated ship. Why is this treated as a threat?
@@kevincomerford2242 either way they weren’t asked or even talked to about it they have a right to be upset
The existence of Star Trek Discovery is by definition a crime.
That bull Voyager has records of the spore drive
"20 years ago we outlawed looking at AI, which your first officer just did, the penalty is immediate ejection." This Admiral probably.
I agree with the admiral on all counts.
Idk how
Why? Did you lose any and all rational or logical thought processes?
@@Slayer398 The writers did so why not the fans too.
Lie, cheat, steal, murder, war, abide by nothing...but the temporal laws yeah we all agree to abide by those because that would be wrong and we could get punished.
2:51 by that very definition, everyone in the universe is violating that law at every second...
People from the past are ALWAYS shaping the future, at every second
I miss the screens with bubbles :-)
The very existence of Star Trek Discovery, by definition, is a crime.
You're free to dislike it, but declaring any form of art a crime is a rather fascistic thing to say. Are you sure you've watched Star Trek before?
Did they ever mention the Admiral here was Bajoran?
I imagine not, given his human name, and the lack of any distinguishing features that might make him look Bajoran, such as an ear ring or a Bajoran face.
Bajoran? Aren't they a deeply spiritualistic race? This admiral didn't seem spiritual at all.
You know why I was swayed to believe it was a Bajoran? It was the uniform' the insignia and two flaps near the arms look like the Bajoran suits used in DS9 to me. Then again, they probably would have called him a Constable or Major in hindsight.
@@lumberluc Not every member of a species shares the same beliefs. Ro Laren in particular was very non-spiritual and looked on a lot of Bajoran beliefs with disdain. (Until she thought she'd died, of course.)
@@lumberluc Well it's been 700 years maybe they stopped their privative worship of godlike aliens.
Yo the old guy is the guy from the mummy and mummy 2 lol.
I've seen a few comments here to the tune of "Why would something from the past even be a threat to the future, why would that be a law?"
While things from the past are certainly less likely to be a threat to the future simply by being there (Discovery's antiquated offensive and defensive capabilities pre-refit (other than the spore drive) were somewhat akin to that scene in TNG of someone attempting to use a laser weapon against the Enterprise); I imagine the law was INTENDED more to criminalize the act of going into the future to retrieve information and/or technology and then *returning* to the past.
One-way trips to the future MAY be (provisionally) fine; but the rub here is that Discovery has *several* unexplained and undocumented technologies. They SAY it was the red-angel suit which enabled time travel, and that it is now gone. But for all Starfleet knows, the spore-drive could achieve the same result, or WAS the temporal technology. And now there's the sphere-data - an equally unknown and potentially temporally active technology.
THAT (I think) is what is outlawed; The POTENTIAL of them returning to, and thereby altering, the past. It is why the admiral refused to share any intelligence on 'the burn' (so they can't go back and prevent it / warn about it), and why Starfleet was so quick to refit and integrate the ship and disperse the crew. In refitting the ship they can ensure it is made to be non-temporal, and by dispersing the crew, they make it harder for them to *want* to return to the past - because they would have to leave people behind.
This was poorly communicated to us, the audience. I am making a lot of assumptions in the above just for the admiral's statements and actions to make sense, and THAT is where the writing on Discovery tends to flounder. There's trusting your audience, and then there's throwing them in the deep end without even a life preserver handy.
Is that a hover chair?
Discovery loves pointless tech.
@@999benhonda We do too, it's called social media!
@@999benhonda pointless you say, lmao
Yeap, and it's full of (holographic) eels...
@@Stranglars1 not necessarily
A predestination paradox.
I do not think this is applicable in this instance!
The only thing criminal here is the writing of this show.
Admiral Vance 🤩
So they rebel and this all becomes Blake’s 7
LOL
Doug Jones is easily the best part of this show.
sorry bub, but there is no "best part of this show".
@@TheShootist well better than everything else
His actions are understandable, but his desperation and uncompromising nature ensures that his actions will only doom those around him.
meanwhile, janeway : ' Hold my coffee- '
I wonder how the Borg handled the burn?
They use sub-space relays that, as far as I can tell, function similar to the spore drive. So I don't think the Borg even know about the Burn. I have no in canon reason why they haven't shown up to take advantage of the Alpha/Beta quadrant being in turmoil, other than they might not know about burn for the aforementioned reasons. As for out behind the scenes reasons, the Borg were Trek most powerful "bad guy" faction and some might not think a ship from the 22nd century would be able to take on 33rd century Borg ships or simply just didn't want to use them as they were kinda used a lot in Voyager and wanted their own "bad guy faction".
Time travel. The fastest and most effective way to ruin any story. You know in any startrek i always skip any episode about time travel or alternative universes. Because its a bad story point that never effects the main story and if they do all sense of meaning and attachment just crumbles. "oh the world is suddenly entirely different" "oh any problem can now be solved with time travel that just get more and more contrived" "Oh look at all the different but similar things you now have 0 emotional attachment to." Pls just ones can we have a scifi story that stays away from that bad trope.
Like 1/4 of the best episodes are time travel. City on the edge of forever. Future's End. Endgame. Trials and Tribbilations. In a mirror Darkly. Carpenter Street. Little Green Men. Time's Arrow. Star Trek 4. Timeless. City on the Edge of Forever.
The writing in this show is a crime.
Dispenses entire history and current disposition of Star Fleet: says not at liberty to discuss intelligence.
Says #1 priority is that the past can't influence the future: says he's going to re-assign the crew.
WTF? Who writes this crispiness?
Best Admiral in Trek
If they made time travel illegal, has it not been illegal forever?
Unregistered timetravel is outlawed
The title of this clip literally sums up Star Trek Discovery.
Funny to think about the fact that even a hundred thousand years of knowledge assembled still won't account for the other 13,5 billion years before that :P
We're still analyzing the cause of the.... spatial and..... temporal....Variances? In our exiting the wormhole?