Wayne has the ability to go full beast mode, he's great! Sometimes his content/delivery can get a little dry though ... MM would be a good mix of thought and humor for his stuff ♥️
This is awesome! Unfortunately, even with physical evidence, people will not believe the book of Mormon. That’s why it’s important to get a spiritual witness. But it is great to see, and hear about this kind of stuff just to strengthen the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon.
@ForrestSchultz89 don't be throwin' shade, dawg. Can't be doing that to our boy, Cardon. Know what I'm sayin? 😅 I'm just poking fun. We love you Cardon lol
THIS IS AMAZING! GOD IS GOOD! 🙏🏽Chills! Lehi recognized it because it’s his home! He’s from the tribe of Manasseh! Anyone would recognize their home neighborhood. So cool!
Jim. You're killing me man. I have a goal for going to the temple set for THIS year. .... you hold your freaking horses sir. I need to get my endowments before you start setting off all these catalysts that are gonna bring about the end of times, sir! Thanks Jim, you're a pal.
so interesting tidbit from history after watching some the the show TURN about George Washingtons spys during the revolutionary war, I gave up on the show but decided to read the book that inspired it Washington's Spies: The Story of Americas first Spy Ring by Alexander Rose... In the Book different types of codes and cyphers utilized by the Americans and the British are discussed. the British spymaster named John Andre liked to use biblical names for replacements names of local places. As an example when referencing the susquehanna river in military correspondence he would call it the Jordan River. (pg 201 for reference) Just thought that was interesting that the Susquhana River was known as the Jordan River in British military Correspondence during the Revolutionary war. Since that is where Joseph and Oliver were likely baptized and received the Aaronic Priesthood
For anyone else who wondered where he says Bethabara is referenced in the Old Testament, it's in Judges 7:24, a place called Beth-bara. It's cool that this map shows where Bethabara is (or where they thought it was during the time of the crusades; I'd be very interested to read more about the archaeology that identifies it as the OT Beth-bara) but I think he overstates how much it counts as evidence that Joseph Smith was inspired (there are much better evidences).
It is cool that these maps show that the KJV and BoM have Bethabara correct, but saying there is no way Joseph Smith could have known that isn't groundbreaking as portrayed here. He used the KJV which used Bethabara in John 1, so naturally he would have used that too if he made the BoM up. He may never even have heard Bethany was used in other versions of the Bible. Let me know if I am missing something here.
The reason I don't believe the BOM is from God is that the devil could have produced it. The Bible could only have been produced by an infinite mind. And BTW, yes the devil not only could have but he also would have produced it.
Went to education week and talked to George potter...LDS researcher who said this about this topic "I really have no idea what Gee is trying prove. All the Book of Mormon says is that Christ was baptized "beyond Jordan". Of course that meant he was baptized in the Jordan River on the Jordanian side. Saint Helena started the search for Bethabsrs as far back as the Third Century. Since then many attempts have been made to find the exact place. Early pilgrims place it near the believed site That is today a UNESCO site. The excavations found there are impressive and indicate that the saints believed that that was where the slots was baptized. I have been there several times and it is very convincing that there is where the early believers felt he was baptized. A post crusader map--most likely being inaccurate as were all old maps - does what. Of course Christ was baptized in Jordan. So what point is Gee trying to make. The Crusades ended in the Thirteenth century. The oldest map of the Holy Lands is the mosaic map on the floor of the Byzantine Church of St George in Madaba Jordan. It dates back to the sixth century and shows Bethabara in Jordan. - as the Book of Mormon indicates but what everyone else knows. So help me what is Gee's point? Any Bible reader in Joseph Smith day would have known that Bethabara was on the east side of the Jordan." Might need to clarify Jim's "find"
After pointing out to BOTH Mormon groups in 1980 and 1981 that the Mormon biblical story of Lachoneous (and son) was identical to the Catholic story of Licinious (and son) right down to using the same dates were the same; it pleases me that they now teach and require members to study the two stories for similarities. The two names spellings are interchangeable along with my surname Liknes when the Yiddish (Jewish women's language) letters are used in the same order, As is the word Vikings when they change it into Etruscan. The Etruscan L is a V; the L's are the same, any vowel can become any other vowel or group of vowels, C,Ch, and K are interchangeable, the n is constant, and the letter S refers to "Jews". It does however bother me that neither Mormon group took the time to thank me for the information I gave them. Further more in the version of Lachoneous, he led the fight against the Hill Tribes (i.e. Rome). Just as Licinious did until 324 A.D. The Etruscans are known to have used gold and brass plates to record events on as claimed to have been discovered establishing the Mormon religion. My Surname is from Karmoy Norway where my 34th or 43rd (which eludes me at this moment) double great grandfather Harald 1 reigned from. Licinious was an Etruscan who fought for Rome, worked his way up to being a General who was place in charge of Northern Gaul (Germany) and beyond ; BEFORE rebelling against Constantine along with/leading 6 tribes i.e. the Vl in Viking. (My apology for using the site to further spread the above information.) Hopefully someone else can take what I have stated above and further research and advance this subject .
The map orientation.... north at the top. I hav been told middle eastern/ancient maps tended to be with east orientation. Where can I find more about these maps?
2014 commentary on the New Testament, an old Institute manual, shows in chapter 21 that Christ was baptized by John in Bethabara. This information is out there, but few know of it.
Interesting video. Why oh Why does the light have to be so dim in this video!!!!!! Why not lay that map down on a table with good light and give us the entire view in context between the Bethbara Jim Gee is showing on this ancient map and the place on the same map where from the 1600's it is placed closer to Jericho? My goodness it is frustrating! For him to make a statement that this is evidence for proof of the BOM, why not display his findings out the shadows! Just saying!!!
There seems to be some ancient intrigue here. All the Greek bibles I have access to say Βηθανίᾳ in John 1:28. It's very interesting that our KJVs say Bethabara. (Thank you for pointing out that priceless scriptural gem.) Also, the Anglo-Saxon says Bethania, which is not surprising since they surely translated from the Latin.
Think of what happened at that point of confluence at the crossing point on the Jordan River. Moses brings the Children of Israel here to cross over. It is also the place where Elijah and Elisha cross over. And finally, It is where John baptizes Jesus. Where else do we a confluence of these prophets? Hmmmmm.
So is the point basically that the BoM says Lehi was a descendent of Manasseh, the Old Testament mentions a place called Bethabara in the land of Manasseh, Lehi identifies this land of Manasseh site as the Bethabara/Bethany where Jesus was baptized, and the map that John Gee shows here shows that there was indeed a place in that area with that name? I believe in the Book of Mormon, but this doesn't seem like the strong evidence it's presented as. For one, wasn't Lehi unaware that he was a descendent of Manasseh until he read the brass plates (I might be misreading that)? Also, the King James, which is the Bible Joseph Smith read, uses "Bethabara," so this isn't some proof of seership like the Book of Enoch stuff in the Pearl of Great Price is.
Can someone explain how this is a proof of the BOM if it is just repeating something that is in the King James version Bible? (John 1:28 - "These things were done in Bethabara beyond Jordan, where John was baptizing." 1 Nephi 10:9 - And my father said he should baptize in Bethabara, beyond Jordan;")
did ya watch the video? he explains it. nobody else knew WHERE bethabara is, and Lehi, having traveled through the area, recognized it and named it Bethabara. the actual location was thought to be much more South, but Lehi and this map show that it was in fact actually much more North so the BoM was the only one to link the correct Manasseh area with Bethabara
i can, kind of haha. In the Torah (jewish bible) Bethabara is called "the place of the crossing" It is extremely important to the Jewish community and the Christians. It is important to the jews because it is the same place where the arc and the covenant crossed through the river. It is important top Christians because Jesus was baptized there. The reason Jesus chose that spot to be baptized... he was trying to connect the OLD testament to the NEW testament. He was trying to tell the jews that he is the same "I am" as the "I am" in the OLD testament. The scripture "I am THAT I am" the word THAT is used as a pronoun to identify a person. the word "Iam" is a title. The Jordan was crossed by Judas Maccabeus and his brother Jonathan Maccabaeus during their war with the Nabatæans ( 1 Maccabees 5:24). A little later the Jordan was the scene of the battle between Jonathan and Bacchides, in which the latter was defeated (I Macc. 9:42-49). The Maacabees are a priestly jewish family. Judas Maccabeus is the man who lead the army agains the greeks that raided the jewish temple, creating the holiday Hanaka. the book of mormon is nothing more than documentation and journal entries of a family who left Jerusalem. In fact, my university i attend, NON LDS, is doing research on a site in Jerusalem called the "house of lehi" (beit lei or beit lehi) the local muslems have shown us records of a gentleman named Lehi who used to preach in Jerusalem and befriended alot of jews, gentiles, sheiks and other leaders. They have actual records of lehi leaving with his family in 600 BC.
@@harryhenderson2479 not all of it is funded by lds church. From 1920s to 2005 it was completely funded by the hebrew university. In 2008 a non profit foundation that had lds members donated money to help the hebrew university with more research. The church in of itself did not. Yes you are correct that it is beit lei, which is the Jewish/hebrew version of lehi. Lehi is a common Jewish name. Beit lehi translates to house of the jawbone or if you chose the isreal name its beit loya.
@@harryhenderson2479 one thing i forgot to mention. You are correct that the original excavation not about a person, until later when they thought it was about the house of lehi in relation to samson. Once they perceived it had to do with lehi and samson, thats when lds scholars started to investigate. Just because mormons fund it doesn't mean its skewed. The university of Jerusalem and alot of the Israel community is beginning to see how it could be lehi. There is documentation from the sheiks that talk about a lehi in 600bc who just leaves with his family for no reason. I was reading a few months back from a lady who lives in Israel about the site. She mentions how its about samson as well as the prophet lehi. Houses were passed down from generation to generation for hundreds of years and there is no reason that this place somehow ended up in lehis hands. Regardless of religion, the site is an amazing piece. Great history for sure and its cool to see all the resources from so many different groups of people working together
@@harryhenderson2479 and yes, i totally understand where your coming from. I am an aerospace and biomed engineer. Researxh is my life. I have published articles in journal of medicines and other places so i can completely relate to what you are saying. I am active lds and even if your a non believer of my religion, YOUR A HUMAN BEING AND DESERVE SOME DAMN RESPECT so there is absolutely no reason for people to freak the hell out at each other hahaha. You seem like a chill person and easy to gwt along with.
Cool. It doesn’t really matter though - whether you had all the proofs in the world people aren’t going to read it and recognize it as Christ’s gospel. Spiritual things are discerned spiritually. Still cool.
If the underpinning is true (the "stage / setting" if you will), then at the very least, you have some connection to an actual place / time / people, from which to express faith. It's extremely important, actually. Otherwise, you're left with a blind faith, which is dangerous. But to go further than that, your assertion is incorrect, in a way. Even if the setting is true (the physical description of the environment where the supernatural stuff was supposed to have happened) that doesn't mean the supernatural stuff is true. Take for instance the ancient texts regarding the Greek or Roman "Gods". Much of their setting is true, but obviously there is no Zeus, etc...
And all this time, the Christian world thought it was in Bethabara. John 1:28 These things were done in Bethabara beyond Jordan, where John was baptizing. Jdg 7:24 And Gideon sent messengers throughout all mount Ephraim, saying, Come down against the Midianites, and take before them the waters unto Bethbarah and Jordan. Then all the men of Ephraim gathered themselves together, and took the waters unto Bethbarah and Jordan. 1 Nephi 10:9 And my father said he should baptize in Bethabara, beyond Jordan; and he also said he should baptize with water; even that he should baptize the Messiah with water. I guess he didn't know that Jesus was baptized with the Holy Ghost too?
I was baptized Mormon, only 25. I dont wanna come across as hating because I was excited clicking on this video. But this doesn't "prove" anything. Again I'm just young and curious but logical
Errm it says in the King James Bible ... the very one Joseph Smith had that John baptised at Bethebara ... look it up ... John 1.28-34 ... whats the mystery?
Please do tell us, where are the ancient maps of the 38 Nephite and Lamanite cities that are featured in the book of Mormon, and what happened to those Jewish people who were 'numerous almost as the sands of the sea', (according to Joseph Smith). Where are the museums that should have abundant Jewish artifacts from a great civilization that stretched from coast to coast?( as the book of Mormon claims), can you give their locations?. Can the LDS church tell us where the book of Mormon lands actually are or were.? Thank you for your help in this matter.
Im still hopeful of the manufacture of steel since Nephi had a bow, IM still on the search for mines that have the ores, dug by the Ancient people, and the places where they fired them, should be obvious, but Nephi just coming out of Jerusalem with a steel bow. Im still hopeful as well because the sword of Laban was taken and ended up in a stone box ( previously wash away in a thunder storm ie the stone box that lasted for years ) That sword of Laban would have been the only war like artifact found to link a war zone on the hill. I still wonder why steel was manufactured just for WAR when steel had other uses. I just hope the MAP hasnt got 5,000 corrections like the BOM.
Of course that is what critics will say. However, I just went back and reread the accounts in all four gospels. It appears to me that if Joseph Smith were simply making up the story of Lehi and Nephi, that their prophecies would go along with the safer accounts of simply being baptized in Jordan. The connection of Lehi to the tribe of Manasseh is the real interesting part to me. Yes, it will be dismissed by critics, but then it just adds to how these same critics have a double standard on their Biblical proofs and Book of Mormon denials. If they are consistent with the application then they either have to give up some of their proofs for the Bible or acknowledge some proofs of the Book of Mormon.
@@JennieFur47 In 1829, it probably seemed a safe bet to just copy the KJV, but in the 21st Century, we now know that the KJV has all kinds of translation errors. It also includes the long ending of Mark, which wasn’t written until the 2nd Century CE, by a forger. Most non-KJV bibles will tell you in the footnotes that Mark 16:9-20 is not original to the Gospel of Mark, that it was added later. The KJV doesn’t tell you this. Unfortunately, Mark 16:15-18 makes its way into Mormon 9:22-24. So this is just one example where a skeptic would lean towards Joseph simply copying from the KJV, unaware that these verses weren’t part of the original gospel. The BOM contains dozens of 1769 KJV verses, carrying over the mistranslations from several of those KJV verses. The KJV mistranslation of Isaiah 28:10 appears in in 2 Nephi 28:30. Ephesians 6:4 (from a forged letter of Paul) appears in Enos 1:1. When skeptics read these verses, they’re more inclined to see them as blunders, indistinguishable from how a fraudster would have composed the book. Book of Mormon Central and FAIR have provided ways to come to terms with some of these KJV errors appearing in the BOM, but people outside of the LDS Church don’t typically find these explanations reassuring.
3 out of the 4 gospel accounts in the King James Version name Jordan as the location. As such, Jordan, not Bethabara, would be the choice most people would include if making up a story but trying to make it sound true. That is all. No proof one way or the other.
How come your light fades in and out to where you can't really see the maps or what's on them for more than a second? Also, why is everything is so dark? Is this intentional? I just don't understand why your light continually fades in and out when you're showing maps and locations. Frustrating.
The bible is the authority of God, and there is no evidence of the Book of Mormon in the bible. According to the bible, in Matthew, Mark and Luke, Jesus was baptized in the Jordan River, at Al-Maghta's, also known as Bethany Beyond the Jordan. Matt 3:13. This has been proven by archeologists and historians unlike the Book of Mormon. Are you refuting the Apostles or the word of God?
Antis don't care. If you learned there was evidence the Qur'an is true, would you convert to Islam? Which sect would you choose? Lol, if the BoM is proven true, the LDS church is still garbage. Community of Christ seems fine. I'd consider them if I was convinced about BoM evidence. But it's weak and unconvincing.
@@ItsSnagret must be the Holy Ghost. Lol, why would non Mormons care about speculation about the Book of Mormon? We don't dispute convincing evidence about Neanderthals or Pompeii or other ancient people.
@@finermatter well for one we can’t be sure that’s where Jesus was basptized and since it appears in the Bible , it’s possible Smith got the name from that
Offtopic: have you considered talking about how Jordan Peterson is threatened to go to a reeducation camp or lose his psychology license because he's openly against the woke culture, and how such totalitarianism puts our freedom in danger?
IDK if this channel would be a good fit on social commentary on things that don't have to do with mormonism/christianity, though I would enjoy their $.02
“Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.” “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.” "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." There are many passages through out the Bible in which God gives us his promise that he word, and his Church which was established in the apostolic age, would never fail, and it hasn't. Those who profess the Bible was somehow corrupted are those who do not want to trust in the inerrant word of God and call God a liar, proclaiming he can fail. "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?" I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works. Lucifer (Satan) is the most cunning adversary ever created. He was able to convince 1/3rd of the angels in heaven to rebel with him, so how much harder do you think it would be for him to create many false religions (such as Islam and Mormonism) and gather a great many to believe his lies and deceptions, knowing it will send many to hell with him. Islam denies the deity of Christ by proclaiming he is not God in the flesh, but merely a man Mormonism believes that Jesus is a created being, made by a Heavenly Father (who has flesh and bone) and a heavenly mother, and who is a direct spirit brother to Lucifer. This to denies the Deity of Christ, who is God in the flesh, who is the CREATOR, and NOT a spirit brother to Lucifer or anyone else. Mormonism has created a different God, a different Christ, a different doctrine that cannot save, and thus, will send many to hell. The broad road that leads to hell is paved with good intentions, well meaning beliefs, a great zeal for their faith, good works, and so on, but the Scriptures are clear, if we do not believe in the correct Christ of the Bible (who is God in the flesh) and follow a another gospel then the one already given to us by Jesus and his apostles, you will not be allowed to enter heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. Jesus is the Word, and he created all things seen and unseen, including Lucifer. Jesus has always been with God the Father from eternity to eternity, as he is the expressed image of God. Jesus even tells us God the Father is Spirit, who has no form. “God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.” ” ...for a spirit hath not flesh and bones as ye see me have. “ God has revealed all things to us already, and we have everything we need to live a prosperous Christian life in the Bible alone, along with all the revelations revealed to us on what is going to happen in the later times (which we are in today) and what to expect. For Christians, we do not live in fear and already know we have God's promise and assurances of eternal life, for it is by Grace alone that we are saved, through Faith, in our Lord Jesus Christ, and not of ourselves, or by any works, so that no one may boast. This is why Christians will defend the faith, and the Holy Spirit promised this as well, that he would always raise up good men to safeguard the truths, to defend against the heresies and heretics that creep into the Church. Mormonism attacked Christianity when it first came into being, by Joseph Smith Jr himself, who declared all churches were wrong, all creeds were an abomination to God, and all the professors of Christianity were corrupt. Christians should never forget that God's truth is under attack and we have a duty and responsibility to defend the faith, expose the darkness, expose the false teachings of Mormonism, Islam and other man made religions that deny the deity of Christ, and those that teach another gospel.
Yawning! Evidence and Book of Mormon can never be used in the same sentence no matter how you try. There will never be any evidence for a book JS created/wrote.
@@Ziplock95 NHM is what they found. The King James Bible named the city. We already know JS used the King James Bible for BOM Bible verses. Finding 3 letters in a place that Lehi supposedly tarried for a while and nothing on a continent they supposedly lived on and grew to millions of people does not lend any credence to the fiction JS wrote
@@ericredd5590 keep coping bud, its okay I like how you're just generalizing the whole "a place where Lehi supposedly tarried for a while" lol dude "wrote" (translated) a whole book about it with geographical references that line up with physical proof and you still gotta cope
@@Ziplock95 you will never have physical proof for a book that was not translated as you say, but it was supposedly dictated from words that supposedly displayed on a rock. Joseph Smith claimed he received gold plates, the sword of Laben and the interpreters from an angel. Do we have any of the objects today? Sadly no. All we have in SLC is JS seer stone. Which by the way he used to look for buried treasure that only he was able to see using his seer stone. Crazy isn’t it?
I am begging you guys, get ahold of Wayne May to talk about the archeological evidence for the Book of Mormon. It is mind-blowing.
100 percent agree
Disagree with mind blowing. But yeah it would be a fun interview
Totally agree hahaha!
I'm the guy in the back corner of the room yelling
'we want wayne! we want wayne!'
Agree
Wayne has the ability to go full beast mode, he's great! Sometimes his content/delivery can get a little dry though ... MM would be a good mix of thought and humor for his stuff ♥️
This is awesome! Unfortunately, even with physical evidence, people will not believe the book of Mormon. That’s why it’s important to get a spiritual witness. But it is great to see, and hear about this kind of stuff just to strengthen the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon.
Love this.
Great work guys!❤
Dang, Cardon. Your voice in the beginning of this series is so deep and serious. Definitely a good radio host voice.
Finally an episode without “you know what imsayin’”
@ForrestSchultz89 don't be throwin' shade, dawg. Can't be doing that to our boy, Cardon. Know what I'm sayin? 😅 I'm just poking fun. We love you Cardon lol
@@MichaelRogerStDenis lol
THIS IS AMAZING! GOD IS GOOD! 🙏🏽Chills! Lehi recognized it because it’s his home! He’s from the tribe of Manasseh! Anyone would recognize their home neighborhood. So cool!
Outstanding!!!
Literally thought this was like a BYUtv interview until Cardon spoke xD this was giving off HEAVY PBS documentary vibes.
Jim.
You're killing me man.
I have a goal for going to the temple set for THIS year.
.... you hold your freaking horses sir.
I need to get my endowments before you start setting off all these catalysts that are gonna bring about the end of times, sir!
Thanks Jim, you're a pal.
It has already started. Summer is nearly past. The Bridegroom is coming.
Awesome
so interesting tidbit from history after watching some the the show TURN about George Washingtons spys during the revolutionary war, I gave up on the show but decided to read the book that inspired it Washington's Spies: The Story of Americas first Spy Ring by Alexander Rose...
In the Book different types of codes and cyphers utilized by the Americans and the British are discussed.
the British spymaster named John Andre liked to use biblical names for replacements names of local places. As an example when referencing the susquehanna river in military correspondence he would call it the Jordan River. (pg 201 for reference)
Just thought that was interesting that the Susquhana River was known as the Jordan River in British military Correspondence during the Revolutionary war. Since that is where Joseph and Oliver were likely baptized and received the Aaronic Priesthood
Footnotes on where the maps were purchased?
For anyone else who wondered where he says Bethabara is referenced in the Old Testament, it's in Judges 7:24, a place called Beth-bara.
It's cool that this map shows where Bethabara is (or where they thought it was during the time of the crusades; I'd be very interested to read more about the archaeology that identifies it as the OT Beth-bara) but I think he overstates how much it counts as evidence that Joseph Smith was inspired (there are much better evidences).
Thnx
Was almost going to give you a thumbs up until you said there's evidence Smith was inspired.
@@rodneyjamesmcguire?
It is cool that these maps show that the KJV and BoM have Bethabara correct, but saying there is no way Joseph Smith could have known that isn't groundbreaking as portrayed here. He used the KJV which used Bethabara in John 1, so naturally he would have used that too if he made the BoM up. He may never even have heard Bethany was used in other versions of the Bible. Let me know if I am missing something here.
BINGO. The simplest explanation is usually the best one.
I was thinking the same thing… This is not as strong of evidence as the connection with NAHOM
@@rogerpreble440 And the Nahom claim is only viable to a believer who ignores, ironically, what the text says.
@@rodneyjamesmcguire
?
The reason I don't believe the BOM is from God is that the devil could have produced it. The Bible could only have been produced by an infinite mind. And BTW, yes the devil not only could have but he also would have produced it.
Incredible.
Went to education week and talked to George potter...LDS researcher who said this about this topic
"I really have no idea what Gee is trying prove. All the Book of Mormon says is that Christ was baptized "beyond Jordan". Of course that meant he was baptized in the Jordan River on the Jordanian side. Saint Helena started the search for Bethabsrs as far back as the Third Century. Since then many attempts have been made to find the exact place. Early pilgrims place it near the believed site That is today a UNESCO site. The excavations found there are impressive and indicate that the saints believed that that was where the slots was baptized. I have been there several times and it is very convincing that there is where the early believers felt he was baptized. A post crusader map--most likely being inaccurate as were all old maps - does what. Of course Christ was baptized in Jordan. So what point is Gee trying to make. The Crusades ended in the Thirteenth century. The oldest map of the Holy Lands is the mosaic map on the floor of the Byzantine Church of St George in Madaba Jordan. It dates back to the sixth century and shows Bethabara in Jordan. - as the Book of Mormon indicates but what everyone else knows. So help me what is Gee's point? Any Bible reader in Joseph Smith day would have known that Bethabara was on the east side of the Jordan."
Might need to clarify Jim's "find"
After pointing out to BOTH Mormon groups in 1980 and 1981 that the Mormon biblical story of Lachoneous (and son) was identical to the Catholic story of Licinious (and son) right down to using the same dates were the same; it pleases me that they now teach and require members to study the two stories for similarities. The two names spellings are interchangeable along with my surname Liknes when the Yiddish (Jewish women's language) letters are used in the same order, As is the word Vikings when they change it into Etruscan. The Etruscan L is a V; the L's are the same, any vowel can become any other vowel or group of vowels, C,Ch, and K are interchangeable, the n is constant, and the letter S refers to "Jews". It does however bother me that neither Mormon group took the time to thank me for the information I gave them. Further more in the version of Lachoneous, he led the fight against the Hill Tribes (i.e. Rome). Just as Licinious did until 324 A.D. The Etruscans are known to have used gold and brass plates to record events on as claimed to have been discovered establishing the Mormon religion. My Surname is from Karmoy Norway where my 34th or 43rd (which eludes me at this moment) double great grandfather Harald 1 reigned from. Licinious was an Etruscan who fought for Rome, worked his way up to being a General who was place in charge of Northern Gaul (Germany) and beyond ; BEFORE rebelling against Constantine along with/leading 6 tribes i.e. the Vl in Viking. (My apology for using the site to further spread the above information.) Hopefully someone else can take what I have stated above and further research and advance this subject .
The map orientation.... north at the top. I hav been told middle eastern/ancient maps tended to be with east orientation.
Where can I find more about these maps?
Wow‼️👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽
so good, add this to nahom, sidon river, land of bountiful.
2014 commentary on the New Testament, an old Institute manual, shows in chapter 21 that Christ was baptized by John in Bethabara. This information is out there, but few know of it.
so where does the BOM say where jesus was born?
Turn on a light, is this CSI?
😅
Interesting video. Why oh Why does the light have to be so dim in this video!!!!!! Why not lay that map down on a table with good light and give us the entire view in context between the Bethbara Jim Gee is showing on this ancient map and the place on the same map where from the 1600's it is placed closer to Jericho? My goodness it is frustrating! For him to make a statement that this is evidence for proof of the BOM, why not display his findings out the shadows! Just saying!!!
Help me out here: John 1:28 says Jesus was baptized in Bethabara. 1 Ne 10:9 says the same thing.
What’s the big deal? What am I missing?
The world thinks the Book Of Mormon isn’t true lol. We’ll just let it prove itself lol.
They just confirmed JS copied it from the KJV. Amazing!
There seems to be some ancient intrigue here. All the Greek bibles I have access to say Βηθανίᾳ in John 1:28. It's very interesting that our KJVs say Bethabara. (Thank you for pointing out that priceless scriptural gem.) Also, the Anglo-Saxon says Bethania, which is not surprising since they surely translated from the Latin.
Think of what happened at that point of confluence at the crossing point on the Jordan River. Moses brings the Children of Israel here to cross over. It is also the place where Elijah and Elisha cross over. And finally, It is where John baptizes Jesus. Where else do we a confluence of these prophets? Hmmmmm.
It's been quiet the last couple of weeks! Is everything ok with you all?
This is definitely interesting. I can't wait to hear more about these things
very interesting, but it would be better if they weren't in the dark
Where can we get copies of those maps?
What maps are these ? Where are they held ? What year ? By whom ?
Watch the first episode uploaded the day before this one. They explain how the maps and information were collected
I wish we could see. Why is it so dark? Please redo
Map provenance?
So is the point basically that the BoM says Lehi was a descendent of Manasseh, the Old Testament mentions a place called Bethabara in the land of Manasseh, Lehi identifies this land of Manasseh site as the Bethabara/Bethany where Jesus was baptized, and the map that John Gee shows here shows that there was indeed a place in that area with that name? I believe in the Book of Mormon, but this doesn't seem like the strong evidence it's presented as. For one, wasn't Lehi unaware that he was a descendent of Manasseh until he read the brass plates (I might be misreading that)? Also, the King James, which is the Bible Joseph Smith read, uses "Bethabara," so this isn't some proof of seership like the Book of Enoch stuff in the Pearl of Great Price is.
BINGO
Absolutwly it is not an Evidence at all
Doesn't the New Testament mention Bethabara too?
Can someone tell me where Lehi references this location?
1 nephi 10:9
Can someone explain how this is a proof of the BOM if it is just repeating something that is in the King James version Bible? (John 1:28 - "These things were done in Bethabara beyond Jordan, where John was baptizing." 1 Nephi 10:9 - And my father said he should baptize in Bethabara, beyond Jordan;")
did ya watch the video? he explains it. nobody else knew WHERE bethabara is, and Lehi, having traveled through the area, recognized it and named it Bethabara. the actual location was thought to be much more South, but Lehi and this map show that it was in fact actually much more North so the BoM was the only one to link the correct Manasseh area with Bethabara
i can, kind of haha. In the Torah (jewish bible) Bethabara is called "the place of the crossing" It is extremely important to the Jewish community and the Christians. It is important to the jews because it is the same place where the arc and the covenant crossed through the river. It is important top Christians because Jesus was baptized there.
The reason Jesus chose that spot to be baptized... he was trying to connect the OLD testament to the NEW testament. He was trying to tell the jews that he is the same "I am" as the "I am" in the OLD testament. The scripture "I am THAT I am" the word THAT is used as a pronoun to identify a person. the word "Iam" is a title.
The Jordan was crossed by Judas Maccabeus and his brother Jonathan Maccabaeus during their war with the Nabatæans ( 1 Maccabees 5:24). A little later the Jordan was the scene of the battle between Jonathan and Bacchides, in which the latter was defeated (I Macc. 9:42-49). The Maacabees are a priestly jewish family. Judas Maccabeus is the man who lead the army agains the greeks that raided the jewish temple, creating the holiday Hanaka.
the book of mormon is nothing more than documentation and journal entries of a family who left Jerusalem. In fact, my university i attend, NON LDS, is doing research on a site in Jerusalem called the "house of lehi" (beit lei or beit lehi) the local muslems have shown us records of a gentleman named Lehi who used to preach in Jerusalem and befriended alot of jews, gentiles, sheiks and other leaders. They have actual records of lehi leaving with his family in 600 BC.
@@harryhenderson2479 not all of it is funded by lds church. From 1920s to 2005 it was completely funded by the hebrew university. In 2008 a non profit foundation that had lds members donated money to help the hebrew university with more research. The church in of itself did not.
Yes you are correct that it is beit lei, which is the Jewish/hebrew version of lehi. Lehi is a common Jewish name. Beit lehi translates to house of the jawbone or if you chose the isreal name its beit loya.
@@harryhenderson2479 one thing i forgot to mention.
You are correct that the original excavation not about a person, until later when they thought it was about the house of lehi in relation to samson.
Once they perceived it had to do with lehi and samson, thats when lds scholars started to investigate.
Just because mormons fund it doesn't mean its skewed. The university of Jerusalem and alot of the Israel community is beginning to see how it could be lehi. There is documentation from the sheiks that talk about a lehi in 600bc who just leaves with his family for no reason.
I was reading a few months back from a lady who lives in Israel about the site. She mentions how its about samson as well as the prophet lehi. Houses were passed down from generation to generation for hundreds of years and there is no reason that this place somehow ended up in lehis hands.
Regardless of religion, the site is an amazing piece. Great history for sure and its cool to see all the resources from so many different groups of people working together
@@harryhenderson2479 and yes, i totally understand where your coming from. I am an aerospace and biomed engineer. Researxh is my life. I have published articles in journal of medicines and other places so i can completely relate to what you are saying.
I am active lds and even if your a non believer of my religion, YOUR A HUMAN BEING AND DESERVE SOME DAMN RESPECT so there is absolutely no reason for people to freak the hell out at each other hahaha. You seem like a chill person and easy to gwt along with.
Lehi was from Manasah so of course he would know of bethbara
Please improve the lighting! Great podcast
exactly what have they to hide, looks shadowery
Cool. It doesn’t really matter though - whether you had all the proofs in the world people aren’t going to read it and recognize it as Christ’s gospel. Spiritual things are discerned spiritually. Still cool.
If the underpinning is true (the "stage / setting" if you will), then at the very least, you have some connection to an actual place / time / people, from which to express faith.
It's extremely important, actually. Otherwise, you're left with a blind faith, which is dangerous.
But to go further than that, your assertion is incorrect, in a way. Even if the setting is true (the physical description of the environment where the supernatural stuff was supposed to have happened) that doesn't mean the supernatural stuff is true. Take for instance the ancient texts regarding the Greek or Roman "Gods". Much of their setting is true, but obviously there is no Zeus, etc...
And all this time, the Christian world thought it was in Bethabara.
John 1:28 These things were done in Bethabara beyond Jordan, where John was baptizing.
Jdg 7:24 And Gideon sent messengers throughout all mount Ephraim, saying, Come down against the Midianites, and take before them the waters unto Bethbarah and Jordan. Then all the men of Ephraim gathered themselves together, and took the waters unto Bethbarah and Jordan.
1 Nephi 10:9 And my father said he should baptize in Bethabara, beyond Jordan; and he also said he should baptize with water; even that he should baptize the Messiah with water.
I guess he didn't know that Jesus was baptized with the Holy Ghost too?
I was baptized Mormon, only 25. I dont wanna come across as hating because I was excited clicking on this video. But this doesn't "prove" anything. Again I'm just young and curious but logical
You're right.
It's just potential evidence
Great video!!!
Whoaaaa 😮
Errm it says in the King James Bible ... the very one Joseph Smith had that John baptised at Bethebara ... look it up ... John 1.28-34 ... whats the mystery?
Jesus birth place is a mystery too, in the BOM.
Please do tell us, where are the ancient maps of the 38 Nephite and Lamanite cities that are featured in the book of Mormon, and what happened to those Jewish people who were 'numerous almost as the sands of the sea', (according to Joseph Smith).
Where are the museums that should have abundant Jewish artifacts from a great civilization that stretched from coast to coast?( as the book of Mormon claims), can you give their locations?.
Can the LDS church tell us where the book of Mormon lands actually are or were.?
Thank you for your help in this matter.
@geoffnoyes520 I would say... South America!!
Lol have you even read any of it???????🤦🏾♂️🤦🏾♂️🤦🏾♂️🤦🏾♂️
Look in the east or in South America. It's pretty wooded and the forests take over fast.
Im still hopeful of the manufacture of steel since Nephi had a bow, IM still on the search for mines that have the ores, dug by the Ancient people, and the places where they fired them, should be obvious, but Nephi just coming out of Jerusalem with a steel bow. Im still hopeful as well because the sword of Laban was taken and ended up in a stone box ( previously wash away in a thunder storm ie the stone box that lasted for years ) That sword of Laban would have been the only war like artifact found to link a war zone on the hill. I still wonder why steel was manufactured just for WAR when steel had other uses. I just hope the MAP hasnt got 5,000 corrections like the BOM.
nice
If it’s in The King James version, wouldn’t critics just say he copied Bethbara from there?
Of course that is what critics will say. However, I just went back and reread the accounts in all four gospels. It appears to me that if Joseph Smith were simply making up the story of Lehi and Nephi, that their prophecies would go along with the safer accounts of simply being baptized in Jordan. The connection of Lehi to the tribe of Manasseh is the real interesting part to me. Yes, it will be dismissed by critics, but then it just adds to how these same critics have a double standard on their Biblical proofs and Book of Mormon denials. If they are consistent with the application then they either have to give up some of their proofs for the Bible or acknowledge some proofs of the Book of Mormon.
@@As-Eye-See-ItI’m confused as to why Lehi would have gone with a “safer” location if Joseph made this up?
Wouldn’t the safest bet be to use what was in the King James Bible? (If that was the one the smiths owned?)
@@JennieFur47 In 1829, it probably seemed a safe bet to just copy the KJV, but in the 21st Century, we now know that the KJV has all kinds of translation errors. It also includes the long ending of Mark, which wasn’t written until the 2nd Century CE, by a forger. Most non-KJV bibles will tell you in the footnotes that Mark 16:9-20 is not original to the Gospel of Mark, that it was added later. The KJV doesn’t tell you this. Unfortunately, Mark 16:15-18 makes its way into Mormon 9:22-24. So this is just one example where a skeptic would lean towards Joseph simply copying from the KJV, unaware that these verses weren’t part of the original gospel.
The BOM contains dozens of 1769 KJV verses, carrying over the mistranslations from several of those KJV verses. The KJV mistranslation of Isaiah 28:10 appears in in 2 Nephi 28:30. Ephesians 6:4 (from a forged letter of Paul) appears in Enos 1:1. When skeptics read these verses, they’re more inclined to see them as blunders, indistinguishable from how a fraudster would have composed the book.
Book of Mormon Central and FAIR have provided ways to come to terms with some of these KJV errors appearing in the BOM, but people outside of the LDS Church don’t typically find these explanations reassuring.
3 out of the 4 gospel accounts in the King James Version name Jordan as the location. As such, Jordan, not Bethabara, would be the choice most people would include if making up a story but trying to make it sound true. That is all. No proof one way or the other.
I wonder why it took 8 years to travel from nahom to bountiful ?
the eight years were all on the land of Arabia, I doubt God made them wander in the wilderness for 8 years waiting on the tide .
@@lukev483 David's like I second that.
@@wes2176 I think he makes them wander in the wilderness until they are a humbled people .
How come your light fades in and out to where you can't really see the maps or what's on them for more than a second?
Also, why is everything is so dark? Is this intentional?
I just don't understand why your light continually fades in and out when you're showing maps and locations.
Frustrating.
The bible is the authority of God, and there is no evidence of the Book of Mormon in the bible. According to the bible, in Matthew, Mark and Luke, Jesus was baptized in the Jordan River, at Al-Maghta's, also known as Bethany Beyond the Jordan. Matt 3:13. This has been proven by archeologists and historians unlike the Book of Mormon. Are you refuting the Apostles or the word of God?
Pray tell, why are the map images repeatedly so dimly lit?
Dramatic effect. You gonna be ok?
@@WARDRADIOman you guys are arrogant lil grifters
CRACK POT
All the antis crapping their pants rn 💩
Antis don't care. If you learned there was evidence the Qur'an is true, would you convert to Islam? Which sect would you choose? Lol, if the BoM is proven true, the LDS church is still garbage. Community of Christ seems fine. I'd consider them if I was convinced about BoM evidence. But it's weak and unconvincing.
@@lukev483 you not even going to make another joke? you just use the same one over and over? the antis are getting lazy these days
@@nathanbigler i smell it
@@ItsSnagret must be the Holy Ghost. Lol, why would non Mormons care about speculation about the Book of Mormon? We don't dispute convincing evidence about Neanderthals or Pompeii or other ancient people.
@@nathanbigler its getting really stinky
Tying the BOM to the New Testament is a double edged sword
This is flat-earther bullshit.
Yes I agree Wayne May would be very enlightening on the subject of geographical evidence of The Book of Mormon.
This proves aboustely nothing
@@wes2176 and your point ?
Easy to say but can you expound?
@@finermatter well for one we can’t be sure that’s where Jesus was basptized and since it appears in the Bible , it’s possible Smith got the name from that
Lucky guess
😂
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Offtopic: have you considered talking about how Jordan Peterson is threatened to go to a reeducation camp or lose his psychology license because he's openly against the woke culture, and how such totalitarianism puts our freedom in danger?
IDK if this channel would be a good fit on social commentary on things that don't have to do with mormonism/christianity, though I would enjoy their $.02
I could see Jacob Hansen discussing that for sure
Without faith it is impossible to please God. The Holy Ghost is the testifier. Evidence is reinforcer for the Holy Ghost.
First
DANGIT!
....some day...
Sooooooome daaaaaaay
I will freaking get the first comment.
I know you guys are well meaning, but please!! We aren’t “Mormons”; we don’t claim to follow Mormon - we are Latter-day Saint “Christians” Thanks
“Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.”
“Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.”
"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."
There are many passages through out the Bible in which God gives us his promise that he word, and his Church which was established in the apostolic age, would never fail, and it hasn't. Those who profess the Bible was somehow corrupted are those who do not want to trust in the inerrant word of God and call God a liar, proclaiming he can fail.
"God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?"
I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
Lucifer (Satan) is the most cunning adversary ever created. He was able to convince 1/3rd of the angels in heaven to rebel with him, so how much harder do you think it would be for him to create many false religions (such as Islam and Mormonism) and gather a great many to believe his lies and deceptions, knowing it will send many to hell with him.
Islam denies the deity of Christ by proclaiming he is not God in the flesh, but merely a man
Mormonism believes that Jesus is a created being, made by a Heavenly Father (who has flesh and bone) and a heavenly mother, and who is a direct spirit brother to Lucifer. This to denies the Deity of Christ, who is God in the flesh, who is the CREATOR, and NOT a spirit brother to Lucifer or anyone else.
Mormonism has created a different God, a different Christ, a different doctrine that cannot save, and thus, will send many to hell.
The broad road that leads to hell is paved with good intentions, well meaning beliefs, a great zeal for their faith, good works, and so on, but the Scriptures are clear, if we do not believe in the correct Christ of the Bible (who is God in the flesh) and follow a another gospel then the one already given to us by Jesus and his apostles, you will not be allowed to enter heaven.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Jesus is the Word, and he created all things seen and unseen, including Lucifer. Jesus has always been with God the Father from eternity to eternity, as he is the expressed image of God. Jesus even tells us God the Father is Spirit, who has no form.
“God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.”
” ...for a spirit hath not flesh and bones as ye see me have. “
God has revealed all things to us already, and we have everything we need to live a prosperous Christian life in the Bible alone, along with all the revelations revealed to us on what is going to happen in the later times (which we are in today) and what to expect. For Christians, we do not live in fear and already know we have God's promise and assurances of eternal life, for it is by Grace alone that we are saved, through Faith, in our Lord Jesus Christ, and not of ourselves, or by any works, so that no one may boast.
This is why Christians will defend the faith, and the Holy Spirit promised this as well, that he would always raise up good men to safeguard the truths, to defend against the heresies and heretics that creep into the Church.
Mormonism attacked Christianity when it first came into being, by Joseph Smith Jr himself, who declared all churches were wrong, all creeds were an abomination to God, and all the professors of Christianity were corrupt. Christians should never forget that God's truth is under attack and we have a duty and responsibility to defend the faith, expose the darkness, expose the false teachings of Mormonism, Islam and other man made religions that deny the deity of Christ, and those that teach another gospel.
TLDR
Fishy
You guy's really need to get a life!! I mean outside this fantasy one you currently live in!!
Bros 30 mins should be the min length for a video. Happy to wait longer and have less videos but less than 10 mins is annoying.
Yawning! Evidence and Book of Mormon can never be used in the same sentence no matter how you try. There will never be any evidence for a book JS created/wrote.
so what do you call this and nahom?
lucky guesses?
@@Ziplock95 NHM is what they found.
The King James Bible named the city. We already know JS used the King James Bible for BOM Bible verses.
Finding 3 letters in a place that Lehi supposedly tarried for a while and nothing on a continent they supposedly lived on and grew to millions of people does not lend any credence to the fiction JS wrote
@@ericredd5590 keep coping bud, its okay
I like how you're just generalizing the whole "a place where Lehi supposedly tarried for a while" lol dude "wrote" (translated) a whole book about it with geographical references that line up with physical proof and you still gotta cope
@@Ziplock95 you will never have physical proof for a book that was not translated as you say, but it was supposedly dictated from words that supposedly displayed on a rock.
Joseph Smith claimed he received gold plates, the sword of Laben and the interpreters from an angel. Do we have any of the objects today? Sadly no. All we have in SLC is JS seer stone. Which by the way he used to look for buried treasure that only he was able to see using his seer stone. Crazy isn’t it?