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How to keep knitting from curling - 7 easy ways for beginners
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 18 ส.ค. 2024
- A step by step tutorial on different ways to keep your stockinette stitch from curling in at the edges.
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If you are knitting a scarf in stockinette stitch, then you may have noticed that it starts to curl in at the edges. There are a couple of ways to remedy that and in this video, I'm going to show you why it is happening and how to fix it.
Chapters
0:00 How to keep knitting from curling
2:30 Add selvage stitches
4:40 Block your knitting to stop it from curling
6:10 Choose a different knitting stitch pattern
7:16 Add a crochet border (or pick up knitting stitches)
8:55 Line the knitting with fabric
9:53 Knit on bigger needles
10:43 Drop stitches
All 7 methods prevent curling in knitting. Best you combine these methods for excellent results.
Materials I am using in this video:
- Knitter's Pride Dreamz DPNS: amzn.to/39u0PMx
- Catania Grande worsted cotton yarn: bit.ly/354ESkw
- KnitIQ Blocking mats: amzn.to/3pvlQvZ
- Solingen Embroidery scissors: bit.ly/3t89Qmk
*Note: As an Etsy & Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases.
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![How to REALLY pick up stitches [10 hands-on techniques for all projects]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/KxiGE67_f0Y/mqdefault.jpg)
This channel should be called Knitting Encyclopaedia ❤
OMG!!! This is a super helpful video. I've never heard ANYONE explain this in a way that's so easy to understand!!! I never knew stockinette was the culprit!!! Absolutely saving this video!!! Thank you so much!!!!
Super informative video. I like that he explains why curling occurs. Norman is trying to give Very Pink Knits a run for her money. FYI I do love Very Pink Knits but Norman also have great informative videos.
Ha! Thank you for all your lovely comments. It means a lot - especially mentioning me in the same breath as VPK (whom i really like as well) :)
Norman im soooooo over the moon happy that not only that you took the time to make and upload this video, but all of your Beginner friendly tutorials!
Your just so adorable to watch ❤️.
You got yourself a new Canadian friend !
Hey there. Wow..don't make me blush! Still, really happy to hear you love watching me. And feel free to comment anytime in case you have any questions :)
Greetings from the State of Wyoming in the U.S. I recently discovered your channel and am devouring your videos. You are so thorough, informative and easy to listen to. Thanks for all you do. BTW, your knitting is more even than any I've seen. I knit every day but my uneven tension will always be a problem.
Thank you! Tension is a lot about practise! only if your hands can perform the exact same motion a 1000 times will things work out. Maybe practise a bit in slow motion so you get things right before you speed up.
Hi Norman! Thanks for your very good and clear advise. I just started knitting and I finished a long scarf mostly in stockinette stitch with three rows of seed stitch at each end, I was happy with how it came out EXCEPT FOR the curling edges! Now I know how to avoid that, thanks so much. I am subscribing too! 💜
welcome to my channel then Lydia!
Oh my heavens, I feel like I am listening to a fairytale while also learning to sew knits. How have I not found your channel before? What a lovely way to learn tricky sewing skills.
Thank you, that was a very informative tutorial. You did a great job of explaining.
Great to hear that. Thx for sharing your feedback with me ☺️☺️
Brilliant yet again Norman, you are a star ❤️ I’m not a beginner but still learning. My knitwear was okay but looked homemade now with all these refined skills and technics I’m learning, I’m asked which boutique I bought my garment in - I’m not telling, it’s my secret !
Hello Norman. I’m starting to knit and just finished my second pullover. I just found your TH-cam channel and found your instructions quite easy to follow even for beginners like me. I would love a tutorial of a top down pullover with circular needles. Thank you 💗
Hey Karina. I'm so glad to hear that. I'll definitely make a tutorial for a jumper in the future. But not sure when I'll find the time 😅
@@NimbleNeedles thank you 💕
@@990karine always a pleasure :)
omg, i'm so happy i discovered your channel! i'm predominantly a loom knitter, but i recently found my old knitting needles and thought of knitting by hand again. you explain so well, and your voice is so calming to listen to! just watching this video gave me more motivation to start hand knitting something, thank you :)) ♡
Thank you sooo much. I struggled all my life with my voice and starting a TH-cam channel was such a big step for me. So very happy to hear I can help others love this hobby as much as I do ❤❤
You have explained this beautifully! Thank you so much!👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
you're very welcome! Always happy to help other knitters :)
Exactly what I needed to know !!! Thank you so much for providing this demonstration.
So detailed! Thank you for so many tips on how to prevent curling.
Excellent tutorial! Clear and simple! Thanks.
Thank you so much. Norman you are so talented and helpful. I learn so much about knitting from you. It makes knitting so much better and fun. ❤🙏
Thank you so much dear Norman.
I am on my first cardigan and about to embark upon the dreaded border and already this tutorial is firing me up with some confidence to proceed.
A problem I do have still is learning how to read patterns and being able to understand the instructions.
They may as well be in Chinese sometimes 😂 but once learnt, easy to understand and remember.
Love and hugs from the UK XXX
i have a tutorial on how to read knitting patterns here
Thanks for explaining! On my way to tackle my first knitting chart. 😊
This was awesome! you explained the reason why stockinette curled so well! I knew it curled but you described it so well that I understand why now!
Hey Boo. Glad you like my video and I helped you understanding a little part of the knitting world :)
I realy liked the last tip. Elizabeth Zimmermann did that as a aftertought seem to prefend twisting on the side of a seamless garment
These are great suggestions, many of which I had never considered before! I’m going to try the double stockinette stitch border! I was tired of always using either garter or seed stitch. Many lacy patterns made with purl stitch on the wrong side curl a lot and it’s hard to find unique ways to keep them flat. Thanks again so much!
for lacy patterns, the double stockinette stitch might be a bit of a problem though. It's rather dense so it might actually lead to some puckering.
@@NimbleNeedles Yes I agree - that would be better for a plain stockinette piece. For the lacier piece perhaps adding a couple of knit stitches and a yarn over would add a little border with an eyelet, giving the lace a little border. Probably 3-4 rows of garter stitch would keep the bottom from curling. I’ll have to experiment with some swatches and the pattern to see how I like it and what exactly will work with the sides and bottom. With patterns like feather and fan, I think a little rolling is expected. I just don’t like it when it’s really exaggerated. I might also increase the needle size a bit to loosen the stitches and see if that helps. I’m not an advanced knitter so I appreciate your advice.
Thanks so much for the tips! I actually like and prefer to pick up stitches on the edge and use garter stitch for the two rows. It’s for the edge of a bucket hat I just knitted!😊
I’m a new knitter and have learned so much from you. Thank you. I love your collection of scissors too.
That is the best explanation ever. One knitter said it curls because purl sts are bigger than knit sts. So I experimented using a larger needle for knit and one size smaller for purl. Didn't work. Thank you Norman.
Heh. That makes no sense. If you turn a project around, a knit stitch will look exactly like a purl stitch. So if any of the two was bigger, that wouldn't work. However, some English knitters tend to knit their purls a bit looser. This however, will not result in curling but rather rows with larger and rows with smaller stitches :P
either way, glad you found me and my video! :)
The explanation was close to being correct. The knit stitches on front are taller and narrower and purl stitches on back are wider and shorter and imagine I attached 2 fabrics one wider abd shorter and one taller and narrower.
This was exactly what I needed. I didn't want to have to start over on my scarf!
Best explanation as to why stockinette curls *ever*. Thank you!
Glad it was helpful Tracy & you are very welcome :)
Thank you for providing alternative stitches, i actually opted for another stitch for a headband than the stockinette stitch i started with :) really comprehensive & helpful video, thanks!
Happy to hear that! Though for a headband a nice selvage in a 1x1 rib can look really nice! :)
Thank you for the feedback 😁!! I haven't started yet, so I'll actually go with the 1x1 rib stitch you proposed, since I'm a beginner and I just picked the stitch based on look so thank you for suggesting an even better/more suitable alternative 😁
@@AgentKnopf It's a pleasure! :) If you want, you can even add a simple cable stitch in the middle. It might sound intimidating, but it's actually not very complicated at all. So, you would have 2 or 3 stitches in 1x1 rib, followed by 5 stockinette stitch stitches, then a 2x2 cable stitches, and 5 st st and 2/3 1x1 rib on the other side (obviously, the exact amount of stitches would depend on your needle size/gauge).
@@NimbleNeedles that does sound cool 😁! Thank you! I'm not sure I'll be able to do it on my first headband as I'm still struggling a little with basic stuff sometimes (i started knitting 2 days ago 😂) but I'll definitely keep it in mind for a future project 😁👍👍👍
@@AgentKnopf well, in that case, maybe something easier, haha 😅
Thank you you for covering things that other knitters do not. Super creative!
It's been a pleasure
Hi! I loved this video! You explained the solutions so well! 💖 It has motivated me to pick up my knitting needles again. I am happy to be a new subscriber!!!
Wonderful Annette. Welcome to my channel and feel free to comment any time in case you need help :)
Great video and useful ideas, thank you. I have almost finished knitting a blanket of coloured squares and wanted some ideas for how to create a border, especially on the curly edges. Think I will go with a crochet border. Thanks 👍😁
Happy to be of help. Just make sure to figure how if u need to pick up from every stitch, every second, or skip every third. Will depend a lot on the stitch pattern, ur gauge, and the kind of edge u pick 😊
I have a BEAUTIFUL length of yarn demanding stockinet. Soooo, lace edge it is, thank you.
Omg .. thanks for remedies to my curled up scarf ; I didn’t want to rip it off and start all over again
Heh. You r very welcome 😊😊
Brilliant explanations! Thank you 💚
Glad you enjoyed it, Helen!
Make sure to ask your questions or problems you are facing in the comments and I'm sure we will find a solution together :)
Great information. Shame I didn’t watch before I got half way through knitting a scarf
Will have to go for the blocking suggestion now , so 🤞I do it ok
🙈🙈
Wow! What a brilliant explanation!
The slip one stitch shown in the end reminded me of the scarfs we nitted in aprox 1974. We nitted stokinet stitches in around ca 40 cm, then slipped every other stices. With the help of another person, we dragged the scarf to 3 times the lenght. It was fun, from a short scarf to a long scarf in no time. We folded the ends double and sewed on long fringes. The scarf would reach our knees.
interesting technique...but yeah, it sounds like a lot of fun! thx for sharing Bia! :)
Very informative.
Glad you think so!
Just found your vids...... please keep up the amazing work....😀😀❣
Hey Scott. thx for your feedback. I'll try my best :)
I'm about to try one on your tips right now. Hopefully I can save my sweater wrap.❤😊
I sure hope it will!
Can you please show and/or explain how to do the double stockinette stitch you mentioned please? Learning in Alaska here 😃
th-cam.com/video/4_Sdk4Ik-L4/w-d-xo.html here you go :)
@@NimbleNeedles that was fast!! Thank you so much. I am a crocheter of 50 years and decided it was time to learn knitting 🤩
All my good thoughts on this post are already listed by others below, and I surely do join them. THANK YOU!
Heh. your very welcome Mary & it's the thought that counts! :)
WOWEE . U r the knitting scientist . lol. that last one was amazing
from mid Canada in a tiny town .
Thank you, this is super helpful!
☺️☺️ thx for your support
Thumbs up for the definition of selvage.
Thank u so much soo interesting and also I am learning how to do it with a scarf I knitted in Stokinette stitch ❤
Very nice presentation! Thank you
So many wonderful methods! I went to subscribe immediately after I watched the video and found out I already had! So clever of me.. 😏
Haha...well..still..welcome to my channel
lots of options i can choose from! thank you :)
Thanks
Love to knit, made curtains & this will help! Ty
Wow, thank you Norman!!! Now it makes sense!!!! 👍
You are terrific! Thank you.
Wowzers
Thank you for posting this!!!😊
Excellent tips! Thank you for your video
Thank you. Happy to hear you like it T 😊😊
i'm so glad i found this video. thank you so much!
You are very welcome emily. And don't hesitate to comment in case you need any further help. :)
Thanks for the tips.
This is just what I needed right now - wow!
Very happy to hear that 😎😊
Although I know about how to avoid the curling, my zeal to make a doggy sweater caused me to forget about the curl. So, now that the piece is bound off, it curls - and extra work will now have to be done. Thank you for showing all the ways - alas, I am looking too late. Next time, I will remember your techniques.
You can use the curl to your advantage. A limp yarn makes a better looking hat if you will make the front side the opposite side from the curl up side. The hat now has a shaping it did not have before and the vabruc has a springy- Ness the yarn did not have.
So glad l have found you 🤗
So much great information, thank you.
You're very welcome ☺️☺️
Thank you for sharing . It is very useful.🙏
You're very welcome. Happy to be of help :)
Excellent videos, thank you! I love the way you explain the physics of what happens when you knit.
Just to clarify terms a bit - I don't know where you are from but I've never heard of a double chain crochet stitch before. It looked similar to a double treble (UK), also rather confusingly known as a treble (US - I think in the UK we count the number of wraps around the needle at the beginning, while in the US they count the number of times two loops are pulled off over the first one), but I noticed a couple of small differences: after picking up a loop at the base of the stitch, the next step would be to make a new loop and pull over it the next two loops on the hook, repeating until only one loop remains on the hook. However you just pulled the loop from the base of the stitch straight through without another loop, as though it were a slip stitch. Also you pick up loops the other way around to the way I was taught to do it (left under to right) - but that is something I frequently encounter in knitting and crochet tutorials.
In the UK we refer to stockinette stitch as stocking stitch; and to seed stitch as moss stitch, in case anyone new to knitting is trying to follow this with British pattern books.
Just like in knitting, there are so many different ways to crochet. A DC is a pretty common stitch, tho. Still, thank you for pointing out some regional differences 🥰
@@NimbleNeedles Doesn't DC stand for 'double crochet', not 'double chain'? Again, that is different in the UK and US. We in the UK call a short stitch that goes straight for the base loop with no wraps a double crochet; but that is a single crochet in the US. What they call a double crochet has a wrap first - and we call that a treble here. I guess someone emigrated to the US and either didn't teach the names of the stitches well or forgot them. Or maybe someone from France or Spain emigrated to the US and the UK got the muddled version. I'd be interested to find out what those stitch names are in European languages where the craft originated, which might shed light on the reasons for the discrepancy in the English speaking world. It's a right pain as it makes it so easy to make mistakes when reading a pattern from the other side of the pond!
Brilliant!
Thank you for the great video
You're very welcome Simon 😊
I'm so glad I came across your video! I'm a crocheter and I just recently started learning how to knit! I'm currently making a cowl using a circular needle and knit stitch...it's curling up pretty bad. I'm so glad you mentioned that I can do a border with crochet stitches lol I'm thinking of doing a border with hdc on the first row and then do camel stitches in the following few rows for border, would that work? Would I still work in every other stitch across like you mentioned in the video? Thank you!
Nice tips, thank you
thank you! hope it works out for you as well :)
Thank you
Excellent tutorial as usual. Can you do some Crocheting video tutorials please?
I am not planning to do that, sorry. I am not the most proficient crocheter so I don't think there is a lot I could teach - maybe how not to 🤣
nice ideas!
Thank you for your tips. I'm going to add a crochet border to my knitted scarf. Do I need to crochet in every two stitches?
That depends a bit on your gauge and the crochet pattern you pick.
Every second stitch or sometimes 1,2,....4,5,...7 can also be a good choice. I would just test it for a couple of stitches and see what you like better.
@@NimbleNeedles awesome! Thank you again 🤩
Norman do you have a double stockings knit stitch tutorial? Thanks great teacher
th-cam.com/video/4_Sdk4Ik-L4/w-d-xo.html
İ there Norman. I am going to try something different and don't know if it will work but am going to give it a go. I am intending to knit a plain stitch scarf but am intending to add purl stitches at the beginning and as selvages and little to add decoration as a design. I will let yoı know how it goes.
well, that sounds like you are adding a border of what is essentially ribbing. That can work but if you add like 5-10 purl stitches, you will end up with a section of reverse stockinette stitch and it will just curl to the other side.
Thanks 🌹 🌹 🌹
you're very welcome!
#7 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼❤️
Thank you! ❤️
You’re welcome, Marfi
Would it also help to Drop stitches in the middle of the work? 🤔 it might actually look cool
well...maybe but that would be...well...an aquired taste :P
How would you add a bottom edge garter border to an already finished back to a jumper?
Maybe watch this video here. Hopefully you will find it helpful: th-cam.com/video/KxiGE67_f0Y/w-d-xo.html
Or you do with an afterthought lifeline: th-cam.com/video/HXPVpM9jGAE/w-d-xo.html
Hi Norman, thanks again for yet another great video of tips and tricks. always so positive with solutions and especially for new knitters to make them fall in love with knitting. can't believe people can be rude. You mention when you block ( and i assume you do this for all of your projects that you block) that you soak in a mild soapy solution and wring gently. so you block with the soap still in the knitting? and when you say mild, do you mean a full qty per ratio of water ? hope this is clear
well..i have a special liquid wool detergent. And no, I typically wash the project out with cold water before I block it. but there are some wool detergents that don't make this necessary.
@@NimbleNeedles thank you.
Thanks for the help. I'm not sure if I should restart my project 🤔 I added 4 rows at the bottom of purls and 4 stitches on the sides of stockentte. Sides seem to be find but now that am at about row 30 the bottom is curling 🤷🏻♀️ I'm not sure why. I don't want to finish then realize blocking won't work. Uhmm should I use bigger needles for the bottom edge? I don't like the look of ribbing for this project but if it'll work better.... Sigh
very difficult to tell...blocking will certainly help a bit but hm..sometimes it's also the yarn.
@@NimbleNeedles Thanks, it really is. I've been testing stuff out and I just don't think stockentte will work for this project. Hopefully Garter stitch doesn't curl? Lol
Hi Norman! Thanks for the great videos. I have a question, which would be better if I can show you the picture of what is happening. Do you have where to reach you? Basically my issue is that I'm knitting a scarf and all was ok the sides were vertical and good but know it is going inside the scarf and for know what am I doing wrong
sorry, I don't do custom consultations :(
My problem is the icord at the bottom edge of a lacy sweater "knitted in the round" is curling up. Tried working icord purl-wise, worked one purl row before comnencing the icord, increasing needle size to no avail.
an I-cord is essentially nothing else but a tube of stockinette stitch. So, it's bound to curl.
does the blocking also work with polyester yarn as well?
only when heat is involved (be careful tho, it can melt!)
I came across this video in a search. I'm a fairly new knitter, I'm not done my blanket yet, however where I've done the bottom garter knit border keeps curling, it's a garter stitch border then stockinette inside. I haven't finished the whole video yet, but I'd assume that my best bet will be blocking the blanket once completed as its just the bottom so far that's curling?
Hey Sabrina, while I invite you to watch the whole video, blocking is a nice bet - though always a bit difficult with a blanket. With big projects, you will need a big garter stitch border tho. 3 or 4 stitches probably won't cut it.
@@nimbleneedlestwo my border at the bottom is 2 inches before the stockinette stitches, the side borders are 10 stitches worth. Thanks for the feedback.
@@sabrinahotchkiss9578 Then i'm not really sure what you mean with curling. The edges shouldn't curl..but maybe you get some puckering in between. that will be mostly fixed by blocking
@@NimbleNeedles too bad I couldn't upload a picture to show you haha. It's more like it's folded over no matter how many times I try to straighten it.
@@sabrinahotchkiss9578 that sometimes happens when u knit with too small needles. 🤔 but yeah impossible for me to tell like this
Hey, when doing the seed stitch edge, what did you mean when you say Knit All Purls and Purl All Knits? How is that different from the right side, which is alternating knits and purls?
mayb watch this video, Tyrielle. This should clear things up for you: th-cam.com/video/ddbwjw9R6sU/w-d-xo.html
*please read I have a question.*
On the blocking the knitting method.
1, does this have the same effect on long scarves with wool knitting?
2, If the scarf has tassles should I keep them out of the water? Thank for any help ❤️
I read all comments and answer them if needed. No need to shout or bold them, Claradottie. It feels a bit rude if I want to be very honest.
1) I don't understand that question. Please rephrase.
2) depends on the fiber of the tassels ;-)
Great great video. Lots of useful into. The last technique (dropping a stitch all the way down) looks like one way to make space to weave ribbons through your knitting. I'm just curious what you do at the bottom of where you've dropped a stitch. You don't go all the way to the bottom. Does the bottom (cast on) row just look like all the others? thanks so much!
the cast-on row will be unraveled as well, yes. But that's of no concern. Nothing will happen to your knitting (other than a visible gap, of course)
For the slip stitch boarder, is the sl1 wyif being slipped pearlwise or knitwise?
Also, I’ve started a scarf with a small garter boarder that’s still curling up. Do you think dropping a stitch at the end would still work with a failed boarder?
when in doubt, check the first link in the description :) The way you need to slip it will depend on your knitting stitch pattern
My selvage edge curls, too. No matter what I do, it curls.
uh?..if you add a 3 stitch garter stitch edge it curls? that's somewhat hard to believe...even if you are a super tight knitter
What type of yarn do you use in these demos? They look so perfect.
Schachenmayr Catania Grande
@@NimbleNeedles cotton?
Can I add a single crochet border to stop knitting rolls?
Knitting rolls?
If you add fringe to the ends if a scarf will that keep ends from curling? Thanks.
a bit..but not toally. I mean. will depend on the weight of the fringes.
HI! I am currently knitting a sweater that is in stockinette stitch and done in pieces. The edges are curling even with the selvedge stitch. Do you think once I put the seams of the front and back pieces together that the curling will go away? thank you!
the seam will definitely fix that and I don't think you even need a selvage stitch. Your sweater needs to be round (= i.e. one big curl). You should, however, find a good solution for the hem.
Do you know why does my swatch still curl quite a lot, even though I have selvage on first and last stitch ? I am knitting the Jute stitch, but the sample curls quite a lot. Could the yarn play a role? I am using acrylic yarn.
the way the yarn was spun can definitely make a difference, as will your gauge. 1 stitch is not enough.
with acrylic, you will be able to steam block it out (careful, this will melt the fibers a bit and this will be permanent!!!)
@@NimbleNeedles Thank you, Norman!
Great tutorial. How long have you been knitting and who taught you?
Thank you so much! ...And...well..i've been knitting for around 30 years now. My mum started teaching me, but most of it is self-taught. :)
@@NimbleNeedles wî
Good day Norman in Germany.
Monica in Cow Head Newfoundland Canada here.
I learned to knit years ago the english method. Just recently found out about the other methods.
I tried the k1 yo k2tog using the continental method. Got mixed up.
I looked for a TH-cam to help. Can't find one. There was something for the yo and then knit.
I'd ask one of my craft group knitters, but they do the english method. So, help!... lol
hm...i am not sure what exactly you need help with? you want to see how a continental knitter knits a [k1, yo, k2tog] selvage? did I understand that correctly?
So I finished my project, is blocking the only way to get rid of the curl?
if the other tips in this video don't appeal to you, yes.
Haha! After I posted the question I realized the answer hahaaaa 🤦🏻♀️ Thank you for responding to my silly question! YOU ARE THE MOST INFORMATIVE KNITTER/CROCHETER MAKER OUT HERE! I’m glad I found you! I appreciate your methods and how you make these tutorials… you don’t waste time “chitter chattering” Your method is the right amount! Also you have silver needles with a pattern on them that are divine!
I’m a beginner. My project has knit purl rows with knit row that I slip stitches on to a cable needle and alternate leaving in front or back then picking them back up to create a cable look. Oh boy I hope I didn’t confuse you… you’re better at technique explanations…It’s a Fancy shadow cable headband. I thought I had to add these stitches whilst making it to stop the curl but I see I can do it after finishing project. Thanks again!
Thanks for the tips.
I am confused by blocking. Does it mean that after every wash, one has to block a knitted item? Because washing a sweater will remove the blocking, right?
And for lace, if I block a lace scarf, adding the tips and opening up the eyelets, these will disappear when the scarf is washed, right? So I would have to block it again?
Depends on the fiber. But sheep wool will always bounce back through washing or humidity. But that's quite nice as it will never loose shape irredeemably- like cotton.
@@NimbleNeedles do you mean that, with washing, sheep’s wool will retain some of the shape from the first blocking, since knitting?
@@AD-uw3xsno, I mean that other fibers like cotton or acrylic can only be blocked once and then they wear out and loose shape. Probably something you may have observed with any tshirt
@@NimbleNeedles absolutely, my sweaters just look like tents, now.
Thank you for the thorough feedback. I appreciate it.
I never thought about multiple slip stitches on the ends..... no wonder my work keeps curling. Ok, I need to mess with one of my power tools to regain my manhood.
I never remember to add the selvage stitches
consider placing a stitch marker on both ends so you always "stumble" across them.