That's because many Bitcoiners don't know these things or think along these lines. Even though it is essentially the core argument for cryptocurrency to begin with.
@@NoOne-uh9vu Good point. It is anything but liquid. It takes days to exchange it for fiat. It's also extremely depended on robust infrastructure (power, internet), so in an emergency situation, it's completely useless. And the numbers don't translate well to everyday items, so using it as a currency for day-to-day is ridiculous. How much is that bread? 0.0000025214198851123 bitcoin. Ugh.
@@jeremyfirth Bitcoin can easily be siphoned away from the public to those mega cooperations and "shadowy elites" within one generation. Just lure people with lifestyle commodities they can buy "cheaper" using bitcoin and in no time most of bitcoin will never return to the public. Imagine companies like Apple, major car brands and large real estate companies offering incentives on spending Bitcoin. Like this BT will only trickle upwards but never be part of the lower or middle class again. Also it seems that in general there is no incentive to spend a currency that never loses its value through inflation but only goes up. That means Bitcoin is intrinsically stagnant and doesnt like to move around in the capital system which makes the currency intrinsically anti investment, anti venture capital and anti innovation. Bitcoin wants to concentrate into the power structure itself and is repelled by the lower classes basically by design
@@ColtWesson Why would they pay for labor that way when they can just use inflationary money instead? Its in their very best interest to keep inflation resistant assets amongst themselves. It secures them power. As long as they can keep bitcoin out of the hands of the public the lower classes have to use alternatives dictated by the upper classes. Its a new spiral of ultimate power and bitcoin will be weaponized exactly as described. It will trickle upwards to secure the status of the already ultra powerful 1% of the 1% until they can have their ways
Ill be honest this conversation gave me the chills. A lot of red flags kept going off inside me as I listened. Jonathan your intuition about this really is spectacular!
What a great discussion. As a beginner into the crypto world, I think I can say Pageau adressed some of the most honest and lucid questions and worries about the real impacts of bitcoin. Sometimes an "outsider's point of view" can be very enlightening.
I wasn't raised Christian. In becoming a Christian, it has been really exciting seeing all of society is saturated in Christianity. Last night I was just chilling and thinking, and I remembered watching Pinocchio. I've not watched Pinocchio to dissect it, but I can already see a few things present. First, the puppet maker reminds me of God...he is so wise and self sacrificial. Pinocchio is foolish, but if I remember right he becomes a real boy in the end; this in a way reminds me of how my true life began in coming to Christ. There's a lot more to it. It seems like the type of thing you might speak on.
Yes, western civilization has both Christianity and pre Christian ideas baked into it a very deep level, as that was the moral and narrative structure for more than a thousand years, and arguably far further back than that as many Christian ideas were rooted in even older dead religions that preceded it. The symbolisms and narratives of these are everywhere, and even our highest laws are based on it. For example the NT says: In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God and the word WAS God. "Word" in this context is translated from the Greek "Logos", which is the root word of both logic and dialogue. This concept is at the root of our value of free speech, which is guaranteed by the 1st Amendment, as the value of speaking truth has been held as divine for thousands of years before even Christianity. We also have innocent until proven guilty because of Blackstone's formulation which is based off Abraham asking God to save a city even if only one righteous person be found in it. The number of movies and stories and even subtle references and names in such contains massive references to iur cultural backdrop that's at least as old as Mesopotamia.
Most people can't see the forest through the trees. Just look how many american cities have blatantly Christian names. Most don't even know the full proper name for L.A. in California.
I rarely comment, but JP said he would read: I loved this discussion. Thank you both, you each displayed grace and curiosity. I think many listeners would have benefitted from an explanation of what the block chain is - and why it is fundamentally incorruptible. I am disappointed in most comments being so skeptical of a bitcoin financial future without making a case for any alternative. As Breedlove said, the difference between bitcoin and central banks is that the shadowy elite of the central banks can dictate the rules of the game while the rules of the block chain are fixed. Fixed in a way that promote freedom for the individuals involved to pursue what they see as valuable. So many commenters seem to think its a debate between our current system and a less stable alternative in bitcoin. But out current system is the less stable, more centralized option. Given the technology of our day, add 50 years and there is no simple and safe option. The way I see it, the block chain represents freedom of the individual while fiat currency from central banks represent centralized human authority. That's the real "red flag" to me. Central banks are building their tower of babel. Printing the cash and printing the laws about the cash, all while our value gets swept away in their corruption. We need an alternative. The block chain is a legitimate alternative which removes their centralized power in 2 major ways that Breedlove briefly explained. First, by separating the currency holder from the law-writer. Second, by providing a fixed total money supply which means nobody gets to print more, nobody gets to steal the value of the currency holders. I do not consider myself a bitcoin enthusiast. I have my disagreements with Breedlove on other things. I am a symbolic thinker and I have been pondering the symbolic nature of crypto currency for months and this is what I have come to. I would love to hear anybody's informed response
@Jonathan Neufeld it is fixed and it is incorruptible today. Could the block chain (and also all private and central banks, all personal wealth and data) be corrupted with hypothetical technology that we don't know anything about? Of course. But thats not a productive argument unless you're advocating all of civilization goes off grid? I do not understand how quantum computing could allow somebody to break cryptography without simultaneously allowing us to to defend cryptography from quantum computing. As far as I have seen, consensus is that quantum computing will be extremely unlikely to break cryptography. And if it does break cryptography without defending cryptography, then it can also break all other online financial services.. Im not sure exactly what your point is but tell me where I'm wrong and thank you for engaging
@Jonathan Neufeld With proof-of-stake networks, Ethereum, and other DeFi projects, the problem of centralized exchanges and centralized ISPs will be solved.
I think Jonathan nailed it with his concern about bitcoins virginal utility. The fact that it is only money and nothing else is actually its greatest flaw. The summary of the internet going from absolute freedom to a system of total accounting and control is amazing to think about. Chaos and order crave each other. An extreme of one will inevitably lead to an extreme of the other.
Essentially money doesn't exist! The world has been acquired by a banking scam called "Credit", lending money. Everyone of us has no choice but support this bank trap because the world only works one way! Sure maybe Bitcoin is offering a new solution but Bitcoin is only as strong as the people who support it. Once people lose interest and want the next thing, Bitcoin will be nothing like everything else.
@@freeradical8440 But that's the thing. Since Bitcoin has perfected the qualities of money that a free market participant seeks for, it's adoption may just keep on growing as more and more people come to realize this fact.
If you want to drive in a car across country, do you really care about how well that car can chop an onion? Or do you care about that car's ability to safely transport your from one location to another? Bitcoin is engineered to be the best at being money. It doesn't need to be the best at anything else. Because that's not its purpose. It is a precision tool. Gold can be used as jewelry, but if it had infinite supply, then it would have never been money. The secondary usecase is irrelevant.
13:53 "One of the things that makes something valuable -- you named the 5 aspects of money, and what was surprising to me that I didn't hear in that is something like.... trust. Because trust is something which is beyond the system."
The 5 properties of Money: Divisablity, Reconizability, Scarcity, Portability, Durability and i believe the sixth most important Tangible physical asset.
Around the 40-minute mark he says "You're trusting the self-interest of every other market actor. And what else is there to trust in a Darwinian world?" He's taking for granted this is a "Darwinian world" and we're basically apes in a jungle. This isn't the reality of humanity. People often don't act in their own self-interest and "trusting self-interest" is basically an oxymoron. Not to mention the obvious answer to what else there is to trust.
@Heraclitus thank you. You helped me reconcile that comment he made about self interest. I couldn’t articulate it myself but what you said is exactly what I was feeling /thinking . Now who can answer the question of tangibility with Bitcoin? Because that is the one and only thing holding me back from investing a majority of my $. I’m afraid some kind of crisis or anarchy will erupt and I won’t be able to even access power much less high speed internet to be able to access my funds! I realize this would also include paper money , cuz atms are operated by power and WiFi as well, but idk just something about never being able to hold my money in my hands is unsettling. Not to mention not everyone even accepts or acknowledges it as currency yet .
Yes, this guy, Breedlove is so full of himself. Darwininan processes did not create life. Neither Bitcoin nor any crypto creates value. Darwin and Bitcoin merely lay out some rules for describing behavior and relationships, and possibly change over time. But, given, Behe's "Darwin Devolves" basis, Darwinian processes only divide further and further from originality. Bitcoin is the very definition of "legal tender" but it verges on CONTESTING the legal part. If you turn off the power, you turn off Bitcoin, so it is ultimately ephemeral. But it gains traction through network effects, as more people engage with it.
Jonathan’s intuition is spot on. The problem with Bitcoin is its lack of real value. Gold was never money simply because of its technical properties, gold was money because of its meaning first (utility) and then because of its properties that value can be stored/transferred conveniently. Bitcoin is all tech and no meaning. Its volatility is not a bug, it’s a feature.
I'd respectfully like to add that in the digital ecosystem this physical gap will always be missing BUT digital currency is coming regardless and Bitcoin is the ONLY way to store value without involving a corrupt authority
I recommend reading the Theory of Money and Credit by Ludwig von Mises. In it, he lays out concretely and irrefutably that 1) all value is subjective and 2) all that are required of a medium of exchange are broad acceptance and a history of objective exchange prices. The history of money demonstrates the falsity of the regression theory of money (i.e. that a monetary medium must have some physical utility) -- the oldest form of money is credit/debt between transactors. Commodity money was a later development that allowed the economy to scale beyond the limitations of credit since credit requires trust. Commodity money has fallen away because technology allowed for much faster and more secure transportation of credit money, and trusted institutions were built up to facilitate those transactions. The idea of Bitcoin is to return to commodity money in a technologically advanced way to sidestep the issues of these institutions crumbling under the weight of their corruption because they abused that trust.
I think Robert didn't understand what Jonathan was pointing out.. With this interview I realize how important is to rely on God's providence and have God's love as the real value, every other value is simply a trick of the wizard of Oz.
The most telling line was when Robert said "we're moving from trust in authority to trust in self-interest". This is not just delusional, but satanic: trusting in our own interest over the authority of God.
Fascinating talk, regarding the authority of bitcoin, though it lacks that seal of 'symbolic kingship' if you will, I would say it derives a great deal of its authority from a completely different narrative. Bitcoin's appeal is in having 'faith' in two things: 1. An anti-authority, anti-hierarchy world view as expressed by Robert (i.e. an anarchist metanarrative) and 2. a faith that technology can deliver on realizing the potential of that narrative. When the results of a broken down society (anarchy) are realized, the proponents of the breakdown quickly abandon that faith in liberty and look for authority and order. At this point, trust in a 'kings image' comes to the forefront again. I can't see how bitcoin could survive the typical cycles of Babylon we have seen throughout history. Regarding a faith in technology, one thing that was not discussed was Bitcoins reliance on complex global infrastructure. Bitcoin is bound to the infrastructure of the internet, it relies on people being able to access parts of the internet in order to engage with the necessary networks to trade its value. In the event of collapse and breakdown, what happens if this infrastructure becomes fractured and the world relies on Bitcoin as a global currency? Obviously, people would return to gold, silver and other hard currencies. Once again, bitcoin could not survive the cycle of civilization. Money needs a face and a story, Bitcoin may not have a face but I do believe it has a story and it's a story a lot of people have faith in.
@Jonathan Neufeld Yes true, I heard one person say that things often collapse in the way no one saw coming. I don't fully agree, I think attentive people can have insights into the way the world is going. Nonetheless, Humans are very good at overlooking the ovbious problems and fixing the obscurities. Maybe this will prove to be the issue with bitcoin?
Jonathan, please continue to think about & make more videos on these topics. It also ties very well with the content you had on credit -- the attraction to crypto as an unconscious preservation instinct against the (intuitively sensed) upcoming cataclysm in a system that borrows from the future & accelerates time relentlessly to the point of self-destruction, as no value & production remains to be found in the present. As Christians, we should also remain mindful that Satan appears as an angel of light, though, and be very careful not to see & seek salvation in our own doing. The cult-like blind faith present among the crypto community resembles the same idolatrous attitude toward science & technology, and the rest of the contemporary gods; I think your intuition is correct that it may very well be the next step, the next block of bricks in the modern Babylon. In the spirit of the Revolution of the Modern Age - per Fr Seraphim Rose - we embrace the forces that promise to further flatten the hierarchy, enhance socio-cultural and economic egalitarisnism, decentralization, and democratization, only to find each other further controlled by sin and disconnected from God. I also agree with the other commentators who pointed out that, albeit knowldedgabe, Robert didn't quite understand where you were getting at from a paradigm thinking standpoint. Please know that there are many financially literate people out there & practitioners in the industry who understand the crypto space and who might not share his viewpoint. In any case - given that the interest in this technology is predominantly driven by feelings of avarice and/or wrath against the injustice of the authorities of the day - you would probably continue finding it hard to bridge the gap between the material/utilitarian and the spiritual/symbolic perspective in these conversations. And the difficulty is precisely why they are worth having! God bless you all! ❤
Jonathan made a great point about gold having story tied to it (crowns, thrones, etc.). You don’t have to persuade people that gold is precious. They intuitively know it and trust it. Bitcoin is a huge unknown. The decentralization of Bitcoin is anti-hierarchical. Society cannot function without hierarchy. When you break down hierarchy, new powers move into place.
In order for currency to work it has to be enforced. So I don’t see how it’s possible to get around the problem of central authority. Bitcoin is being compared to gold as a form of currency that both are free from government and central banking corruption. But gold didn’t prevent the dangers of inflation. I can buy that in some limited circles that Bitcoin could help keep the economy alive on the edges (in the same way gold and bartering etc helps keep the economy afloat during periods of high inflation / low trust), but it doesn’t fundamentally solve the central authority problem. You still have to establish an honest central authority to maintain the integrity of everyday transactions for everyday people. Also to compare Bitcoin to gold, gold is limited as a currency during times of crisis for the same reason that gold is limited, which is that people will hoard it and won’t spend it, which is what happens today, there are more people investing in Bitcoin as a result of distrust in central authorities than there are people spending it. And yes in marginal transactions Bitcoin gets used but not for the volume of transactions needed to operate a normal economy.
@@tscotts9699 what I meant by enforcement is that someone has to police the actual exchange, because the possibility of theft and fraud always exists in exchanges. I don't mean that people have to be forced to use certain currencies. And because policing relies on central authorities (because they rely on shared agreements), authorities are back in the system.
@@tscotts9699 You've made my point exactly. Physical reality is inevitable, central authorities exist to deal with problems inherent to that reality. So unless you want to use bitcoin to purchase other digital goods exclusively, there is no way to completely avoid central authorities.
The only thing I know about Robert is what I’ve heard in this video, but it seems almost as if Bitcoin is his religion. “Bitcoin has no authority above it...” If there’s no authority above an entity is the authority.
I feel the same way. And my intuition is that the question Jonathan was trying circle around is "If the light shines so brightly, I wonder what the shadow looks like"
if you take a udemy coruse on blockchain and realize it yourself (takes 2-3 evenings) you become a believer) it's a very simple and elegant mechanism, thats where awes are coming from
I think Mr Breedlove has almost convinced me about the benefits of bitcoin , but I can also understand Mr Pageau's intuition. It seems after that discussion ,that as we go forward, bitcoin is inevitably our best and only option, economically . I feel that maybe it can function ,as a garment, which can protect us against totalitarianism that devours us with the same essence as bitcoin ,which is money . I am still learning so, I hope my understanding wasn't too far .
One of my musings on money as a system is that it actually quantifies and captivates human life. It is a way to capitalize human life and turn humans into a commodity. I'd like to hear more thoughts and discussion on this aspect of money as a system which enslaves humans and turns them into a product.
Johnatan you are a smart guy and I share your vision of the cosmos in many aspecta. Still, I also think you should deepen your knowledge about bitcoin. In my view it doesn't seem to be an evil thing. Somehow it seems rather like something that give the average people more freedom. There are some issues yes about speculation, it is very expensive now but this happens outside the network. Not sure how that will be solved.
The properties of money @08:25 1) visibility 2) durability 3) recognizability 4) portability 5) scarcity Gets you thinking doesn't it? Amazing something that started out being mocked is now a digital currency rivaling gold. Reveals where our society is at in many ways.
Hi Jonathan. The problem with cryptocurrency is PRIVACY. One important feature of money is that it needs to be fungible. This means that one monetary unit of a plumber must to have the same value of a banker´s monetary unit. BITCOIN´s most important feature is SECURITY and in order to have this quality it has given up PRIVACY. This is done by tracking and recording every single transaction. This is the Snowden critique. Hope it´s helpfull. Great job.
You got emphasis on 1. Self-interest, 2. Distrust, 3. Anarchy. A trifecta of red flags lol. But what if it's like a using death against death, flip thing 🤷🏻♂️
Haven't seen Robert Breedlove's commentary before, but it does seem he took an ideological approach to try to explain this to Jonathan. Probably a calculation influenced by Pageau's usual subject matter and audience. If he was capable of explaining BTC in purely technical terms, it would be a different approach, and thus would have had a different effect on Pageau.
Perhaps the best conversation about Bitcoin that I've heard. Robert seems to be a straight shooter as they used to say. Idealism and practicality. I shall have to go back and weigh it against James Corbett's presentation. I appreciated your framing the later conversation around the coming totalitarian, zero-carbon, 4th Industrial Revolution (choose your own label) where the control of digital currency will be key to governing the globe.
One thing that is concerning about the dark money aspect of Bitcoin are Satoshi's coins from 2009. At the start of 2009, the pseudonymous creator of Bitcoin (Satoshi Nakamoto) was more or less the only one who was mining Bitcoin and appears to have accumulated a bit over 1 million BTC (about 5% of the total Bitcoin supply ever, and worth about $40 billion USD as of right now). We have no idea whether Satoshi was just one person or a group of people and we don't know what happened to these 1 million BTC after Satoshi disappeared in 2010.
@@tscotts9699 Yea i guess I was being a little vague there. What I meant specifically is that we don't know what happened to the private keys that could potentially spend these coins.
@@tscotts9699 It's not so much proof of the security of the network but simply the security of the `secp256k1` elliptic curve chosen by Satoshi Nakamoto. I'm not sure though what would happen if that curve ever gets sufficiently weak, which will be almost inevitable some decades down the line (e.g. via a breakthrough in quantum computing, or some other new computational paradigm).
I really wanted the “Dog headed” coin to come up. Did the elevation of a dog headed jester coin lead to the end of a cycle? (Obviously this was recorded before the major crypto sell off May 19th) #symbolismhappens?
@@bradspitt3896 it might be worse than plinko. As soon as you say one coin is the “best” or “perfect,” making it the king, you immediately create a hierarchy that marginalizes some coins (crap coins). If “the king” cannot integrate the marginal, it eventually leads to the downfall. A pattern that is becoming all too familiar.
@@austinrush7748 Interesting analogy but I'm not convinced it applies to free market economics as well as it applies to a structured governed society. To clarify, I mean the king/margin analogy. I think your Doge analogy fits very well, and I've suspected that it was a scheme to steal some of Bitcoin's thunder.
I'm pretty inept at understanding the whole thing. I know what I believe. What is the dog headed coin? Doge? Also do any of these have a physical presence? Tangible?
@@epsteenwusmerdered9878 Yes, I agree, Doge coin was/is undermining Bitcoin. I think this overall pattern applies to everything. If the king/head cannot integrate or “keep the faith” of the margin/body it eventually gets destroyed by it. You can also see the pattern in the movement surrounding GME within the stock market. In that story “the king” or Wall St (via a hedge fund) was trying to destroy a marginal company, GameStop. In doing so they provoked the “margin” or the “little guy” retail investor to rise up against the king. “Apes strong together” a la’ Jordan Peterson’s reference; if the head ape does not provide reasonable care for all the other apes, some lower apes get together and try to take him out. The head (Wall St.) must care for the body (investors) or the body will not continue to provide support. (I’m using “care” here as “play a reasonably fair game,” since we are talking markets.)
As a religious scholar Pageau should be able to recognize this as an idol. “Perfected”, “Incorruptible”, these are just assertions without proof. Sounds more like a deity, but Bitcoin as a system created by humans as well.
It's perfected and incorruptible in the sense that transactions cannot be faked or wiped from history- they will always be on the block chain and can be verified by anyone without the need of a third party. Since money is supposed to serve as a mediator of transaction don't you think it's fair to say that it is a more perfect system than untraceable bills or credit based systems that line the pockets of usurers? I don't think anyone is comparing Bitcoin to God, they are using these descriptors in the context of the utility of money as a mediator of exchange.
Another major blindspot Robert has is thinking that bitcoin is immune to corruption. He glosses over the fact that bitcoin runs on energy, something extracted from the physical world, and in doing so, ignores the fact that In the long run, whoever controls energy (which is becoming increasingly centralized) would control bitcoin.
Your hypothesis has already been proven incorrect with cases in Venezuela and other places. Energy can be attained in many ways, not only the earth. One hint: the sun. You also have to ask 'compared to what'? Is the current banking system energy free? Banks, payment processors, the accounting firms, the regulators, etc all have power bills. A real criticism would involve transaction speed
I found this interesting as someone who invests in bitcoin, doge, and ada cardano. I agree that crypto has great benefits and use cases, but to say bitcoin is the only real use case is surprising. The transaction cost of Bitcoin is massive, unlike doge or ada. They have a much better use case. I think the comparison to gold is accurate, because people don't walk around with gold and trade it, they use cash. That's what all the other coins (ada, doge) are competing for and they do have a use case. And to play devil's advocate, should we really take the power of money out of the government's hands? It's not a simple question. What if the dollar becomes worthless compared to bitcoin and we need to go to war? How will the government pay everyone to go? How will the government pay for anything? They won't. It will strip the government of everything. And some will cheer at that, and fair enough. But there are some things we actually need like Roads, safety and some order in the country. Perhaps the govenrnment has gone so far off the deep end that it's worth flipping the board game over and starting over and seeing how things end up. But that puts us in a vulnerable situation. It's just something I have never seen discussed.
What's the difference between a government that taxes a corporation 50% to pay for its war, or a government that commandeers 50% of a company's production capacity to support its war? Maybe money is not the right medium to deal with war-time allocation? Dunno, just a thought.
@@jeremyjurksztowicz6278 a government could print 50 billion tomorrow and have it ready to pay people. To obtain taxes from a company could take a year unless the government just throws out rules and puts a new tax whenever they need money. And if there is a depression and no one makes any money, how do you obtain taxes? Basically, the govenrnment having the printer allows for them to deal with necessary short term problems.
@@mitchellwhite7335 Yeah, I'm saying that might create perverse incentives. Due to the cantillion effect the companies payed by that fresh money get the benefit of it before it has triggered inflation, maybe that's not a good way to organize for war? Someone will pay for that 50 billion print up through inflation, so again, why do we have to organize for war like that? Maybe if you have to commandeer a business it prevents you from running unpopular bullshit wars as you _need_ the cooperation of your citizenry and army to do that, while you only need some corrupt central bankers and some media hegemons to run a modern war these days. Honestly this is a big question and I'm not saying this is the right answer, but we should also check our assumptions about money and maybe discriminate where it's an unproductive medium to use (i.e voting should not be based on money).
In the far past printing currency was not what you did to go to war, if you are say prince purple of the violet estates you needed to do things such as “save up money” to be prepared for war. Also such things as government bonds exist, so if the people are willing to pay they can help fund the war effort. Also borrowing money, which is more ethical then just relocating wealth from the citizens to the government
Did anyone see the recent interview by Lex Fridman with Sam Harris? They talked about Christianity and Peterson stuff... it would be awesome to have Jonathan comment on what was said. It's very interesting how there are two very different worlds on TH-cam, given that the interview was very well received by the atheist audience of Lex. Lex seems to be the latest TH-cam celebrity to really champion the scientist/atheism worldview.
I'm a follower of Lex. He has some very interesting guests on and he is very insightful. I know that he's probably an atheist on paper, but it's funny how much of his worldview is still shaped by Judaism and Christianity without him perhaps even being aware of it.
Bitcoin limitations: 1. Mass coronal ejection 2. Access to the power grid 3. Access to the internet 4. Not easily scalable (only the tech savvy can safely use it) And the one Jonathan will love the most... 5. Direct access to the blockchain for transactions is extremely slow, so exchanges/wallets sprang up to mediate transactions. Of course the exchanges charge you a service fee for every transaction. When you put your bitcoin in the collection plate, it will pass through a money changer. Holy symbolism.
1. Exaggerated problem. We can predict such events and prepare the power grid to some extent while small electronics can be protected easily with Faraday's cages. 2. Solar panels. 3. Starlink.
Commenting before listening. Hope to hear discussion about the ineluctable movement towards hierarchy and centralization -- things that the cryptobros claim is impossible with crypto.
Robert emphasized Bitcoin as personal sovereignty and agency, flat, democratic, with boundless possibility (ie, the influence of time), as well as immutable, incorruptible, uncounterfeitable (ie, the influence of space). Overall I got the sense Bitcoin sways more toward the chaotic, and that Jonathan would prefer more of the hierarchical structure of "traditional" currency. Jonathan's point about the shady characters who haven't built anything is ominous for sure. "At least Bazos built something"
36:00 All of the transactions of Bitcoin are totally visible and public. That's a potential avenue for how it could be weaponized right there. There are cryptos that don't have this feature, like Monero, but Bitcoin specifically has totally publically visible transactions.
Great conversation! As others have pointed I was very uneasy with some of the statements, Bitcoin the hope for a better humanity? Sorry maybe I am to old to believe in such stories, we have a popular saying not everything that shines is gold. That said, I completely agree with your guess image of the Banking system.
Bitcoin is too good to be true. This Robert guy seems to have good knowledge on the topic, and he makes good points. I think no matter what road we take, we're headed deeper into globalism.
It is interesting to listen to this after the recent crypto crash. Breedlove says that "Bitcoin has zero percent unexpected inflation." Well, it just lost half it's value overnight, "unexpectedly". Will it swing back up? Sure, maybe, even probably, eventually, temporarily...? As the big boys sweep in and mainline it, what has emerged is that they intend to pull no punches in driving down its value at least in the short term causing short term inflation for retail investors and long term value for the rich. It is also fascinating that Jonathan arrives at the same place as many market analysts through dissecting crypto currency's symbolic value -- and that is that it will be everything or nothing at all.
You seem to be conflating inflation with valuation. It's "zero unexpected inflation" because the number of coins is finite and released on a transparent schedule. The value can go to 100k or zero and it's not inflation.
I personally am excited about the possibilities of crypto currency. Jonathon pointed out a few potential issues that I haven't even thought about. But Just to respond to Robert's reply to Jonathan's issue regarding shadowy figures emerging out of a "one world bit coin currency". Sure, unbreakable rules would prevent things like inflation and other tricks that the big banks use to rig the system but these tricks are tricks within a system. They're the foundation of that system, printing money and the fiat currency. I would say that we are greatly under estimating human ingenuity, if we believe that any system is unbreakable or rather unhackable.
I'll be honest guys I didn't really like it. I don't think a bitcoin evangelist is who Jonathan should be having this conversation with. When Jon talked about how we don't know who owns the bitcoin we missed out of a great conversation. almost half of all bitcoins are owned by fewer then 50 "whales" who could plummet prices by selling a small portion of their holdings (according to 2018 data), that seems symbolic to me. There's tons to be hashed out symbolically with the volatility - "Amazon is more volatile then bitcoin" okay but Amazon isn't money either. I never hear these guys talk about the 3 economic uses of money (a medium of exchange, a unit of account, a store of value). It could be just because I don't follow crypto that closely, but I think theres much more to bite into symbolically than the 5 attributes of money. Typically, bitcoin is believed to fail to the latter 2 uses because of the volatility. - for example, I wouldn't feel comfortable setting a price for an 8 month lease with my tenant in Amazon stock. To complicate things further, there are reasons wage contracts are negotiated in nominal terms instead of real terms. The question of whether or not bitcoin is a bubble is also a great conversation. Theres tons of symbolism to discuss comparing this crypto bubble we are in now with tulip-bulb, Dotcom bubbles etc. What mechanism exist (or not) to short bitcoin if you lose your confidence in it, or believe its not priced correctly. What could be happening around us right now that is fueling bitcoin idealism? What can be said about the liquidity provided by central banks engorging crypto... etc? I get that I'm probably coming off as very anti-crypto, in reality I'm Lukewarm. I'm just playing the devils advocate to show that if you can see both sides of the conversation you'll be able to see what's going on symbolically much better (I think anyways)... Like I promise theres a better conversation to be had than just bitcoin is the greatest thing ever and the banks are evil. The worlds not that black and white guys. I would love to see a conversation between Jonathan and someone like Patrick Boyle on the topic.
The volatility is only an issue because not everyone has Bitcoin. The dollar fluctuates too on the forex. I'm not a Bitcoin evangelist, just sharing information. Once everyone uses BTC it will stabilize, IF it gets to that point.
It's a very important conversation, I'm glad to see it moving beyond "bank bad, crypto good." Statements like bitcoin "can't be corrupted" seem incredibly naive. It would be great to see Jonathan delve deeper into the implications of blockchain technology, tokenization of assets, and government digital currencies. I'm not anti crypto, it's another tool. But it's one that can be used for nefarious purposes.
I agree with Alex, this conversation was biased as F!....the guy was selling Bitcoin trying to prove how great it is....Jonathan wasted his breath trying to tell this guy about the deeper meaning. He didn't even grasp Jonathans objective view. Wrong guest on the topic.
You had me up until banks aren't evil. Not that they are necessarily; I think Richard Werner explains why the German banking system has historically been good to the German people. Other than that, and that means almost all other banking, it's evil.
@ 22 mins I found myself wondering, after Jonathan’s point around the gold being dedicated to something higher. Like it’s being used to hold something in reverence, it itself is submitted so that it doesn’t become the highest value. And the talk of it’s perfection, even for me as a fan of Bitcoin, and holder of. I wondered, what’s left over. What’s the corners of the field as Jonathon might refer. I wonder if NFTs might be the answer to that. That by creating a place where art is holding the value. As art can’t be delineated, it always has to speak from outside of the system. This is a wildly valuable conversation so far. Thank you to both for having the courage and wisdom, and the space they hold for each other’s varying perspectives. So much can be learned from that alone. 🙏🏻
I'm a software engineer who's been following crypto since 2013, and this guy gets so many details wrong it's painful. "Everything else is just a copy of Bitcoin": half-true in the early days (LTC, DOGE), but we now have dozens of alternatives, from Proof of Stake, to holochains, to DAGs and more. There are so many different implementations and innovations I couldn't begin to list them all here. One big differentiator with the current #2 coin (ETH), is that it's "Turing-complete", and so can run complex smart-contracts, which is why it's used for NFTs. "No one can control Bitcoin": Also only half-true. The core developers have significant soft-power (influence, though not control); but the miners have the hard-power. While the protocol is technically decentralized, there are a small number of mining consortiums that control over 51% of the hashpower. If they decided to run a version that removed BTC's hard-cap of 21mil coins, that would become the new chain (and/or, the chain would fork, which has happened multiple times, per Bitcoin Cash). This is roughly the way every blockchain works; Bitcoin is not special in this regard. "Only market-proven solution is Bitcoin": A highly contentious value judgment for crypto generally. But beyond BTC, there are NFT's, crypto stock markets, prediction markets, even "decentralized autonomous organizations" that provide digital services like storage or computing. Bitcoin is no more or less "market-proven" than any other blockchain, except as evidenced by the price. How much of that is evidence of its utility, and how much is a Ponzi scheme (or tulip mania) is in the eye of the beholder. "Divisibility, durability, portability, recognizability, scarcity": This is just silly. Some coins are designed to grow forever; if you want to ding them on "scarcity", fair enough (although there are also non-BTC coins with fixed allocations). All four other properties are present in other cryptos; and even the coins that will grow forever have scarcity at any given moment, same as dollars, despite the Fed continuing to print more. I'm only 10 minutes in, and I'm already cringing to see what comes next.
"The free market selected gold as money": the history is more complicated. Many commodity currencies have been used (Romans sometimes used salt, hence "salary"). Often money was simply a debt to the king: tally sticks broken in half with a stock and stub (this is where "stock" comes from). While precious metals have been used to store value for millennia, the infamous "gold standard" in America was a top-down decision by the federal government, and only lasted a few decades (post-WW2 to 1971). "Bitcoin cannot be used for anything other than money": another silly claim. A blockchain is essentially a database which we've chosen to imbue with economic value; but that database can also contain arbitrary data (albeit, small amounts, limited to block size). One practical use (again, not limited to BTC) is "proof of existence": I can encode the hash of a digital document, and prove in court beyond a shadow of a doubt that that document *must* have existed at the date and time that I encoded it into a transaction. There's a whole ecosystem of "side-chains" that use these database characteristics for non-monetary purposes. Tying the price volatility of BTC to the block reward is also absurd. (a) Miners make income on transaction fees in addition to block rewards; (b) mining returns fluctuate with energy costs and new innovations in hardware; (c) whatever the intrinsic merits of crypto, its number one "killer app" is still speculation, so of *course* it's volatile. Often that volatility is actively gamed, in so-called "pump and dump" schemes (see what Elon Musk has been doing on Twitter); that activity is (mostly) illegal for stocks and other asset classes, but entirely unregulated for crypto, for better or worse.
"Hyper-controlled world currency": Bitcoin is pseudonomous, not anonymous: while identities are absent, all transactions are public, and a dedicated sleuth can trace and de-anonymize transactions. Other competing cryptos (Monero, Zcash) have much stronger anonymity baked into the protocol. Moreover, while feds and tech giants can't "cancel" anyone on a blockchain, miners absolutely can: if the miners decide not to honor your transactions, or disappear your data, then you have no say whatsoever (except perhaps to fork your own chain, and hope that others will honor it). And of course we cap off with the most nonsense claim of all: that intentionally wasting the electricity of a medium-size nation will somehow incentivize innovation in green energy, as though humanity didn't already have sufficient demand for energy. The very issue is that energy sources with high externalities (carbon, war) are the most cost-effective to generate, move, and store (wind and solar are cost-competitive to generate, but limited in use because storage and movement are much more expensive). "Proof of Work" is a generous way to say "Proof of Waste"; and what's more, better alternatives can accomplish the same goal. Many coins already use (or are moving to) "Proof of Stake", whose energy cost is a rounding error by comparison. And while there are arguments that PoW is more secure than PoS, the same goal can be accomplished with much lower-energy algorithms (Proof of RAM, Proof of Storage, etc). Don't get me wrong: I'm bullish on crypto. It's a fascinating space, humanity's first worldwide experiment in free banking, and all the good and bad that goes with it. It's here to stay, and it's going to lead to both good and bad things, just like any technology. But it's very polarizing, and neither the haters nor the evangelists should be given too much credence. Do your own homework. (The original 2008 Bitcoin whitepaper is surprisingly readable to the layperson.)
Great talk! As I’ve dipped my toe in the crypto waters I’ve discovered Robert as a very thoughtful guide. I appreciate his philosophical approach. I’m trying to go into crypto with my eyes open and with the thought that anything that sounds too good to be true probably is at the forefront of my mind. I’m long on Bitcoin for now.
@@kennyg1358 They are investment assets, are they not ? Just look at the history and crashes of investment assets and you'll understand crypto"currency". Herd mentality, people are convinced to keep buying something without any value. Just like modern art, paying 20.000$ for a banana with ducktape. I'm not saying you can't make a lot of money, of course you can (loose also). I'm saying that they will not be in any way the future of economical systems.
Did no one tell Jonathan that there is a man teaching a course on bitcoin right now that calls himself an Orthodox Christian named Vin Armani?? That's not to say that Robert did a bad job. This is the first time that I had heard him and thought that he was great. Vin Armani however, gets on every show that he can to talk about the spirituality of bitcoin.
Many of us commented on Jonathan's twitter about Vin. This is the first time I've heard of Robert and he seems great but Vin Armani has made me think about Bitcoin and crypto in a way that almost no one else has.
@@jessecortez9449 yeah man I have had the same experience. I'm not on Twitter, but I'm in the same camp as Vin; I came to Orthodoxy vert recently and started my intellectual journey in economics.
Awesome interview and Jonathan you focused on the exact points where a paradigm shift is currently underway in the world where BTC and the blockchain are concerned. I've been studying this for a few months now, and I still struggle at times to shake off these built in beliefs around money. I do hope you will have more BTC discussions. Very helpful and great guest! TY
The fact that you can make nothing with bitcoin, can get no pleasure from consuming it in any manner, makes it valueless... Robert completely dodges that question when it comes to the value of using gold. I hate when I hear wordy garbage like that to defend bitcoin. Bitcoin is the king of fiat currency, because there isn't even a government to defend its value. It is a huge bubble in the market that will eventually pop.
@Mephisto von Döbelstein I think they're saying gold has value not dollars. But money can still be used as paper or something else. And as far as shorting Bitcoin, the speculation on a new financial invention is part of the narrative whether you're long or short. The issue is bringing Bitcoin to the center.
@Mephisto von Döbelstein Yes, dollars are also valueless. If the government wanted to, they could inflate them thousands of times with no recourse. Only things have value. Gold, silver, bronze, bullets, food. Things can also not inflate without the effort needed to produce the thing, like he was saying about bitcoin, the difference is that a thing can be used and a 1's and 0's in a computer cannot. Bitcoin has even less value than a dollar though, because at least a government backs the dollar. Bitcoin has no backer and thus no value.
@Mephisto von Döbelstein Something I should have distinguished earlier is real value vs perceived value. Real value is something useful that can never lose value. Perceived value is only valuable because people say it is. This is fiat currency. I don't trust things that only have value because people say they do. This doesn't mean they cannot be used, but I will not be investing my future into them.
No matter what, bitcoin or not, we are moving to a world whereall transactions will be naked and open for everyone to see...in that sense, it lacks hiddenness.
Jonathan's question, what is bitcoin is a great question. The way I see it is that it is the leviathan (Thomas Hobbes)/embodiment of consumerism (just like fiat currency although with bitcoin its easier to ignore). Consider what is the physical nature or body of bitcoin? It is vast amounts of computers (which need to be constantly replaced when they fail) in containers, most only specialised in bitcoin activities. They consume large amounts of power to run and keep cool. The power and material comes from the consumption of material resources. Then consider what the purpose of Bitcoin is if you put aside the money trade element? It is purely to propagate itself in validating transactions and validating the network. It's only monetary value comes from peoples attention on it and it's value in real world item trade. Take away peoples attention to it, use in trade, or take away access to the network or your wallet and the value would disappear and the specialised computers left behind become junk. Speculation with trade is the only use that comes from Bitcoin at least with gold you can use it in the real world for other thing than money.
I don't mean to come off as rude, but almost every point you made is factually incorrect or baseless conjecture. I doubt you're interested now, but some day if you're ever curious about Bitcoin/crypto a good starting resource would be the best seller "The Bitcoin Standard" by Saifedean Ammous
It was good to hear a decent set if arguments against Bitcoin. I love the comparison to the darkness. It feels right that bitcoin would be the store of value that holds monsters beyond comprehension; monsters that will devour you. Yet also it is the store of value from which you could retrieve the relic that will give you the power to slay dragons. It just feels right.
"Abandon all hope, ye who enter here." is the first sign you see over THE GATES OF HELL. "We are moving from trust in Authority, to trust in Self-interest." is the sign over the GATE of the 9th CIRCLE OF Hell.......😲😲😲 FANTASTIC conversation ......
Disagree with Jonathon’s point of Bitcoin being an “un stamped” coin. It’s the other way around, the ultimate stamped coin. Every transaction that occurs and every Bitcoin that changes hands is stamped by every node in the network. And the transaction is only acceptable if every single node agrees upon the transactions which is then put into an immutable ledger. Thousands of computers are all agreeing on the validity of the coin and the transaction itself before it is minted into the block. There is no way to fake a Bitcoin or a transaction on the network. The difference is it’s authority and trust comes from the entire market and not a centralized entity.
@Jonathan Neufeld Well, considering the boomers essentially wrecked the economic futures of all the younger generations with their greed, can't say I blame them for going all in on crypto.
Great discussion, but there are two simple problems that come up with regards to this new phenomenon: 1. I as an average person will never fully understand how Bitcoin works on a technical level. Therefore, I will have to place my trust in the "fact" that Bitcoin is not controlled by anyone and that it is incorruptible (divine?). In other words, I will have to become a believer in the god of Bitcoin. 2. Assuming that Bitcoin is truly as advertised, that it will always remain decentralized and incorruptible, then there is the problem of who owns the infrastructure/technology that facilitates the possibility of Bitcoin's existence in the first place. Who owns the fiber optic cables and the PHYSICAL components that connect our computers, cellphones, etc., to the the internet? Who creates the silicon microchips that "mine" and store Bitcoin? We forget that the very same authorities that give us the freedom to be on the internet, buy Bitcoin, etc., could easily turn all of it off tomorrow if they so please. Even if other, independent companies stepped in to solve this problem, someone more powerful can always come to your door and demand that USB stick with the stored Bitcoin over. That is why there is indeed only ONE true incorruptible, always stable, and always secure currency that we as humanity already have access to and can even transfer to the eternal life, and that is the LOVE of the one true God - the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Amen. God bless, and keep up the great work Jonathan. Christ is Risen!
I would love the world in which you bring on Nassim Nicholas Taleb. He has a different opinion of Bitcoin. He also has an excellent moral intuition and fortitude.
@@bradspitt3896 yes. His Twitter is all about economics, trading, fat tails (symbolism of Fat Tails would be 😽), mathematics, Mediterranean food, and deadlifts. Don’t say stupid things on there. He will block you. twitter.com/nntaleb?s=21
From what I understand there are two things they can do to "take away" your coins: 1. Pull you off the grid and take away your internet/connection to the blockchain somehow. 2. Force you to give them your blockchain address. Similar to FDRs gold confiscation. If they did either of those two things though, the totalitarian cat would be out of the bag.
No they can’t. Bitcoin is too big now. They would have shut it down already. You can take you Bitcoin off the blockchain and keep it in “cold storage” All you have to do is memorize you seed phrase and you can take them across borders or whatever.
@Brad's Pitt 1. Remember, Bitcoin transactions are just information, so they don't have to be sent over the internet. You can use a satellite network for that, or even just radio signals. 2. You can create a multisig wallet, in which your Bitcoin has 3 or more private keys, and one would need 2 of 3 keys, or 3 of 5 keys, etc, to acquire your Bitcoin. Then, you keep one and separate the others among family and friends whom you trust. It's not absolutely foolproof (nothing is), but it would make it difficult for the state to seize your Bitcoin, when even *you* can't with your single key! (And of course, when you'd need to spend your Bitcoin, you'd have to get your family/friends to cosign the transaction, too. This was just for the adversarial situation you described.) So no, there is nothing any government can do to stop Bitcoin. It runs on the rails of energy, time, math, and game theory, so to break Bitcoin, one would have any break those things first.
@@jasonsellers56 You're asking people to cover themselves in antiquated tech for that though. At most, if it got that bad, BTC would only be used on the margins. To participate AND keep anonymity requires a lot of effort. Just look at /r/privacy.
If bitcoin were incorruptible, it should not have any exchange value. No connection to fiat currency at all. What prevents the wealthy from speculating on bitcoin as we speak, and fully abuse the fable of 'cooperative self-interest' that the common portfolio owner believes in? Bitcoin is still part of the very cycle its users wish to break. This pattern reminds me of the modern desire to move from fuel to electricity as the main energy carrier. And that ideally we would all produce our own electricity. It turns out unfortunately, that we need an even bigger power grid with more sophisticated control to handle the fluctuations of this decentralized production. With the internet and the financial markets this is no different. Pageau is fully right that the Bitcoin grid is just begging for authority to step in.
Vin Armani would be a good guest in this regard. He's been on Paul Vanderklay's channel and I interviewed him as well. He just came out with a book called Render Unto Caesar: Prophecy, Profit, and Proof Of Work in The Dim Age He's a recent Orthodox convert I beleive as well.
@Jonathan Neufeld it's true, it sacrifices low-cost transactions for security and censorship resistance. That's a feature, not a bug. Plus, there are plenty of other blockchains out there more suitable to handle payments rather than ultimate settlement.
Jonathan: One online "coin" market recently reported nearly 10,000 cryptocurrencies with a "report" capitalization value of $1.62 trillion USD. My professional background, before retirement and becoming a "mountain monk," was accounting, auditing, finance, economics, central banking. Many of Robert's descriptions and points are valid, Bitcoin is amazing digital technology, but we all live in a fallen world (Genesis 3) and there's NO escape except metaphysically and spiritually.
I am not sure if someone else mentioned it in the comments, but I would really recommend you have Vin Armani on. He is deeply religious (orthodox christian I think) and is a big proponent of crypto. Unlike Breedlove, he is not of the view that BTC is the one and only and has a much more nuanced take on the actual value of cryptocurrency. He might be a better fit for helping you get your head around it. He is also the person I discovered your work through.
Wow I really only just sort of heard about bit coin never looked into just thinking it was some kind of background thing happening. This video kind of shocked my system the way he described it
Hi Jonathan, I’d encourage you to reconsider your idea that Bitcoin is pure potential. It seems in fact to be an extremely defined tool, or as Robert said, a game with rules that can’t be changed. The supply is fixed at 21 million coins, the halvings occur at predictable intervals, and it has a very limited number of possible uses, the clearest being digital gold. Regarding the issue of trust, that is where decentralised blockchain technology comes in. A great way I heard it explained is that rather than having the ledger of financial transactions stored securely in a bank that you trust to keep it accurate, everyone who uses Bitcoin has a copy of the ledger, and the network makes sure these all agree. The trust comes from consensus across the network. On top of blockchain technology you can build smart contracts, which take out the middle man in financial transactions, meaning people can deal with each other directly through the network without the need to trust an intermediary authority. Bitcoin is not really being used for this, but other cryptos (e.g. Ethereum) have taken the blockchain technology that Bitcoin introduced to the world and gone in that direction. Their precise aim is to remove the need for trust when interacting with others.
This should be titled, "Interview with a Bitcoin sales rep." Bitcoin is heavily manipulated. It's a currency where a guy like Elon Musk (who thinks Bitcoin is bad for the environment) can open his mouth and your "money" drops to half, a quarter or more of it's value in a week. It can take months or years to climb back. It isn't a slow gradual climb. It tends to happen lightening fast, and it's hard to predict when the rocket to the moon will happen. Most people end up selling out of fear before that, or they try to trade it using stock market analysis strategies, all of which work until one of the big players comes along and plays everyone else. Will you be in it when the rocket happens, or will you get in only for it to be a fake out? Will you try to catch a falling knife when it tanks? Even the experts end up looking stupid on a periodic basis.
Thats its bane and boon it seems, its volatile nature means at least in the short term your money is liquid, it will go up and down. Our current fiat currencies however only go down, generally gradually but thats all they do (in fact at least in the past the leading economic theories proported that deflation must be avoided at all costs). Another big problem is that most people arent using it in daily transactions, they use it as an intermediate between common currencies and as a way to get more money (kind of like stocks). Perhaps if it was commonly used it would stabilize more, why wouldnt it really thats how standard fiat currencies work as well
I think it's important to disregard the short term volatile price swings of Bitcoin. A good way to see the signal through the noise is by looking at the 200 week moving average price of bitcoin, which you can see has only gone up in 12 years.
You're stunningly brainwashed. Do some research. Bitcoin is perfect money. Fiat currency price swings at the moment mean nothing long term. Just wow 🤦🏻♂️
Wish Jonathan had done just a little more research on what Bitcoin is and how works prior to the conversation. It seems he went in pretty blind about Bitcoin or crypto is in general which lead to some big misconceptions on his part. But still, fascinating conversation.
Jonathan What are your thoughts on potentiality and heaven? Are they the same? Are they different? Do you have content assessing these two? It seems Bitcoin may be a type of digital heaven? I could see how some could pick that up if they have an austrian economic view. They veiw reality in a struggle against scarcity. So the earth is seen as a world of work instruments. Thank you.
Jonathan, I concur with your concerns. Although I see the points your guest is making, if a government decides to control the internet, how can I use Bitcoin to buy anything? At least with something tangible it has value, in minimalist terms, the ability to barter. If internet is controlled, what will Bitcoin allow me to purchase or barter with?
I have a strange supernatural experience concerning bitcoin which corresponds to Jonathan's intuitive feeling regarding it. Long story short: I had a strange meeting at the crossroads in a small Spanish village. I meet an old woman who said that she always takes the bus but this day God has told her that she was supposed to meet someone. She asked me if I believed in God and I said yes and then she knew it was me she was supposed to meet. She said that God had big plans for me. That I would have the world economy in my hand and wear a suit. She said it needed someone humble and broken to be in that responsible position in order to know what to do with the money. She sensed it had something to do with bitcoin, which I didn't know much about at the time. She said I should do communion alone each day and seek God and that I should follow him like a sheep. She even said I would be able to heal people and prophesies. It seemed like a deal to good to be true. She asked me to close my eyes and I felt like some fluid came over me. It was like I had taken some drug. My mind was vibrating, the surroundings were floating and I felt strong. When I came home my girlfriend noticed there was a strange light around me. I told her everything and the first thing she said was "I don't know where she was send from." Then a weird synchronicity happened. I got an e-mail from a cryptocurrency forum saying that there would be a rare chance to invest in some specific cryptos right now and that this only happened every fourth year. This would make you rich. I kept getting e-mails asking me "Are you in?" "Are you in yet?”. It wasn’t the ordinary junk-mail but from a more reliable source. I thought if this really was a message from God I wouldn't dare to deny it, but on the other hand I knew this could be something deceiving. After a lot of discussions with my girlfriend and some outside help from a christian medium who said that this was the darkest darkness he has ever seen as he didn't think it was a real person I met, I decided to stop doing the communion and abort the cryptocurrency plans, even though I had set up all the websites and was ready to stay up that night and join the forum. My girlfriend and I took a walk after I decided to stop and during the walk we saw a strange number of cars with 666 on the license plate. I have left out some details to not make this the longest comment in youtube's history, but I am sure that something happened at the crossroads that day, because I felt stronger and more enlighten than ever. One night it felt like I was emitting light and love and it was so overwhelming that I could hardly put myself together. I now think it was an ominous deceiving force behind all this. As the Bible says "No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money” and ”The love of money is a root of all kinds of evil”. Of course this leads to questions about the mark of the beast, which crypto could be a part of. The end development of this crypto-evolution could be the finalisation of Satan’s communistic utopia and a false heaven on earth, where each person, who joins the system, will get enormous wealth, freedom and all the ice cream you can eat while everyone travels and explores their ego-centric new-age spirituality for a while. I think the mark of the beast will be too tempting for most people. God knows, but we are surely in deceiving times.
@@jonas_westh As they said in the discussion: Todays money is based in gold but bitcoin is purely digital. Notes & coins do still exist which means that your wealth isn’t purely digital but can exists in the outside world as well. You can therefore buy and sell without a trace and without you being registered as the buyer or the seller if you want. When money becomes purely digital it limits our possibilities and makes everyone depended on AI. A development we are already seeing. Todays system is by no means good and I think it’s just a matter of time until it’s totally replaced by cryptocurrency which will be seen as a better and less corrupt alternative. After some time we will probably suffer the consequences of having a purely digital currency which will be controlled by the worst one imaginiable. Your ability to buy and sell will be controlled and switched off if you don’t acquiesce.
@@antonolandersson5019 I get what you are saying, but we are already dependent on AI for money. The beast system is already here, and we are all a part of it... for now. I mean you could draw out all of your wealth into cash and coins, but then you would be screwed when inflation hits. You see what I mean? If we are already in the AI evil rabbit hole, why not choose the currency which seems most promising, and able to liberate you quickest?
@@antonolandersson5019 Or in short: Your wealth is digital no matter what you do. You could store all your wealth in physical gold, but that seems equally risky as depending on AI in my opinion. Let me know your thoughts
@@jonas_westh I totally agree. We’re already depended on AI and there is no way out if you want be part of the system and be able to buy and sell. Although I think there will be some further development until we are in the actual beast system, which will mean much more evil things than what we’re currently experiencing in todays system, and I think crypto has something to do with it. It looks promising at first with its ”peer to peer”-philopsophy and that every transaction is open to avoid corruption, but as the system is new and we don’t quite know the rules crypto obeys it will likely f*ck us in the end as every economical system always do. Only this time we will be proper f*cked as our redemption will be at stake. There is a patent called 2-0-2-0-0-6-0-6-0-6 which involves crypto and looks suspicous to say the least. As anti-C-h-r-i-s-t is called anti-C-h-r-i-s-t for a reason there will be a reversal or an up-and-down turning of everything C-h-r-i-s-t stands for. Hierachy is essential in c-h-r-i-s-t-i-a-n-i-t-y and crypto will partake in the breakdown of hierachies which we are already seeing all around in society. I think crypto fits the prophesy well. The love of money will be more important than the love of God and I think the beast system will make each of us face that choice. It will be like when C-h-r-i-s-t got tempted in the desert.
This question is longish. It seemed to me that a central banker in control of a fiat currency like the dollar would have seen Bitcoin coming along and at some point decided to head off Bitcoin's potential to ruin the fiat currency game. The way to do that would be to use the unlimited fiat currency to buy an overwhelming position in Bitcoin and from then on manipulate Bitcoin's price as you would any other cornered market. A BC booster told me that activity like that would be noticed, and there are people who specialize in identifying who or what entity these big players are, and that no central bank has that kind of position in BC. I thought, well that's good. Until somebody took the logic another step and pointed out that if they can identify a big player, then it's just a matter of motivation for them to identify anybody, and probably everybody over time. In this context 1) is BC private? 2) once identified, can an individual or entity be excluded from BC? Thanks
Transactions are necessarily linked to wallets, but wallets aren't necessary linked to people. This is the dual nature of privacy in bitcoin and many other cryptos.
@@jeremyjurksztowicz6278 The claim that an analyst can identify a big player has the corollary that all players are potentially knowable. True or false?
@@jamesdewane1642 As far as I can tell it has the same characteristics as regular cash for money laundering purposes, if you do not try to hide your transactions then you can be identified (pretty much the same as credit/debit/cheques). If you try to launder your money by say exchanging it at an off-shore crypto exchange, or making fake purchases from a shell company, then you are pretty much in the same boat as money launderers today. The thing I'm not sure about yet is if the ability to create dozens of wallets easily changes the game, it's a bit in the air still. Gold is still way more anonymous though. Interesting times!
@@jeremyjurksztowicz6278 If John S says "I bought 1.1 BTC at 5pm" you could look at the ledger and see that transaction and using other metadata it would be possible to identify X wallet as his. If you're careful you can be anonymous though. The privacy angle was one of many reasons for the 2017 fork war which lead to developers making more privacy-centric coins like Monero etc. Considering how centralized gold is I wouldn't consider it very secure. This goes double if the physical gold isn't in your possession, like in a vault. With things like multisig wallets your bitcoin can be secure from even a wrench attack situation
@@jeremyjurksztowicz6278 Right! I have the same suspicion as Pageau, that we're trading out some oligarchs for others, or not even changing them! And there's no way to test the guest's assertion that oligarchs under Bitcoin is better than oligarchs without Bitcoin. God, community, land and livestock!
In that Bitcoin is integral to the internet, what happens if the internet goes away for whatever reason? What happens when the next big thing comes along (bytecoin?) and people start dumping their Bitcoin to buy into the new thing?
People nowadays think this is impossible, but that's EXACTLY what the Rockefellers have been preparing for. People will one day wake up and find out they are disconnected to everyone else but to local authorities through traditional means. That's the true Great Reset.
Why would people dump? Unless some sort of state mandated global block of crypto trading occurred for that specific coin why would they dump? Simplicity is key, bitcoin it seems is exceedingly simple and iconic. Why swap out your bitcoin for the same thing but with a different name? Not counting the centralized competitors in the market
Bitcoin is already fonctionning via satellite network, can preform well via Radio wave... to stop it you need to stop electricty. What would be the cost of cutting power ? ;)
@@brastionskywarrior6951 I’m because something else promises better returns? Because so many people are trend-driven? Because people get tired of the volatility?
@@mblaydoe i will agree too many people are treating this as a way to make money but the line goes up over time and shows no real signs of stopping. All fiat does is go down and right now it looks like its really gonna start going down. Bitcoin just doesnt do that in the same way
@15:25 - Money doesn't have authority; it can go from everything to nothing just like that. Yes! just look at places like Venezuela or Cuba in the last 2 decades. Money meant nothing. Bread had more value that bills. People were selling commodities for like $200 per item.
I see a lot of you criticizing bitcoin, so I'm wondering, is fiat currency (which isn't backed by anything) a better option? Is it okay with you that our government can simply print money?
I think most of the critique from Jonathan to bitcoin is actually a critique of money in general. Fluctuations are to be expected, crypto isn't perfect, just much better than any other money. You still should make actual use of that potential.
22:20 There it is, if Bitcoin is closer to pure potential than gold, then it is also subject to chaos in a way that something more tangible wouldn't be.
If something is as ethereal as BitCoin is you can't hold it. You can hoard Gold and keep it's universal value and carry it outside the borders of a corrupt economic system. BitCoins are volatile by definition. Am I wrong in this analysis?
I've a specific question, Jonathan. Could you make more short video's? (Under 10 mins) I'd love some video's I can just watch when I don't have much time about interesting subjects like this! Looking forward to your response! (Thank you for your content though, I am enjoying it very much, it's the very reason why I am asking this 😉)
![[LIVE] : ONE ลุมพินี 82 วันนี้!! คู่เอก | ยอดไอคิว vs อับดัลลาห์](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/hSsyTl_9bqs/mqdefault.jpg)
This is the first time I have ever heard a coherent, persuasive case for Bitcoin stated clearly and simply. Thank you for this interview.
That's because many Bitcoiners don't know these things or think along these lines. Even though it is essentially the core argument for cryptocurrency to begin with.
The crypto grifters are great in overstating the advantages and downplaying or outright hiding the obvious problems with crypto
@@NoOne-uh9vu Good point. It is anything but liquid. It takes days to exchange it for fiat. It's also extremely depended on robust infrastructure (power, internet), so in an emergency situation, it's completely useless. And the numbers don't translate well to everyday items, so using it as a currency for day-to-day is ridiculous. How much is that bread? 0.0000025214198851123 bitcoin. Ugh.
@@jeremyfirth Bitcoin can easily be siphoned away from the public to those mega cooperations and "shadowy elites" within one generation. Just lure people with lifestyle commodities they can buy "cheaper" using bitcoin and in no time most of bitcoin will never return to the public. Imagine companies like Apple, major car brands and large real estate companies offering incentives on spending Bitcoin. Like this BT will only trickle upwards but never be part of the lower or middle class again. Also it seems that in general there is no incentive to spend a currency that never loses its value through inflation but only goes up. That means Bitcoin is intrinsically stagnant and doesnt like to move around in the capital system which makes the currency intrinsically anti investment, anti venture capital and anti innovation. Bitcoin wants to concentrate into the power structure itself and is repelled by the lower classes basically by design
@@ColtWesson Why would they pay for labor that way when they can just use inflationary money instead? Its in their very best interest to keep inflation resistant assets amongst themselves. It secures them power. As long as they can keep bitcoin out of the hands of the public the lower classes have to use alternatives dictated by the upper classes. Its a new spiral of ultimate power and bitcoin will be weaponized exactly as described. It will trickle upwards to secure the status of the already ultra powerful 1% of the 1% until they can have their ways
Ill be honest this conversation gave me the chills. A lot of red flags kept going off inside me as I listened. Jonathan your intuition about this really is spectacular!
In what way friend.
orthobro what else can we rely on but self interest?
Invictus what orthobro said
@@rupdesnoop I can't tell if you're joking but you do realize Pageau is Orthodox Christian, don't you? For self-interest see Satanism and LaVey.
@@julinpc I was. Hence I backed orthobro
What a great discussion. As a beginner into the crypto world, I think I can say Pageau adressed some of the most honest and lucid questions and worries about the real impacts of bitcoin. Sometimes an "outsider's point of view" can be very enlightening.
I wasn't raised Christian. In becoming a Christian, it has been really exciting seeing all of society is saturated in Christianity.
Last night I was just chilling and thinking, and I remembered watching Pinocchio. I've not watched Pinocchio to dissect it, but I can already see a few things present.
First, the puppet maker reminds me of God...he is so wise and self sacrificial. Pinocchio is foolish, but if I remember right he becomes a real boy in the end; this in a way reminds me of how my true life began in coming to Christ.
There's a lot more to it.
It seems like the type of thing you might speak on.
You should watch Jordan pedersons analysis of Pinocchio. You'll enjoy it.
Yes, western civilization has both Christianity and pre Christian ideas baked into it a very deep level, as that was the moral and narrative structure for more than a thousand years, and arguably far further back than that as many Christian ideas were rooted in even older dead religions that preceded it. The symbolisms and narratives of these are everywhere, and even our highest laws are based on it.
For example the NT says:
In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God and the word WAS God.
"Word" in this context is translated from the Greek "Logos", which is the root word of both logic and dialogue.
This concept is at the root of our value of free speech, which is guaranteed by the 1st Amendment, as the value of speaking truth has been held as divine for thousands of years before even Christianity.
We also have innocent until proven guilty because of Blackstone's formulation which is based off Abraham asking God to save a city even if only one righteous person be found in it.
The number of movies and stories and even subtle references and names in such contains massive references to iur cultural backdrop that's at least as old as Mesopotamia.
Most people can't see the forest through the trees. Just look how many american cities have blatantly Christian names. Most don't even know the full proper name for L.A. in California.
@@mitchellwhite7335 beat me to it
@@Hitlerbaddaringood ahh just like when the germans named San Diego in 1904.
I rarely comment, but JP said he would read:
I loved this discussion. Thank you both, you each displayed grace and curiosity.
I think many listeners would have benefitted from an explanation of what the block chain is - and why it is fundamentally incorruptible.
I am disappointed in most comments being so skeptical of a bitcoin financial future without making a case for any alternative. As Breedlove said, the difference between bitcoin and central banks is that the shadowy elite of the central banks can dictate the rules of the game while the rules of the block chain are fixed. Fixed in a way that promote freedom for the individuals involved to pursue what they see as valuable.
So many commenters seem to think its a debate between our current system and a less stable alternative in bitcoin. But out current system is the less stable, more centralized option. Given the technology of our day, add 50 years and there is no simple and safe option.
The way I see it, the block chain represents freedom of the individual while fiat currency from central banks represent centralized human authority. That's the real "red flag" to me.
Central banks are building their tower of babel. Printing the cash and printing the laws about the cash, all while our value gets swept away in their corruption. We need an alternative. The block chain is a legitimate alternative which removes their centralized power in 2 major ways that Breedlove briefly explained. First, by separating the currency holder from the law-writer. Second, by providing a fixed total money supply which means nobody gets to print more, nobody gets to steal the value of the currency holders.
I do not consider myself a bitcoin enthusiast. I have my disagreements with Breedlove on other things. I am a symbolic thinker and I have been pondering the symbolic nature of crypto currency for months and this is what I have come to. I would love to hear anybody's informed response
@Jonathan Neufeld it is fixed and it is incorruptible today.
Could the block chain (and also all private and central banks, all personal wealth and data) be corrupted with hypothetical technology that we don't know anything about? Of course. But thats not a productive argument unless you're advocating all of civilization goes off grid?
I do not understand how quantum computing could allow somebody to break cryptography without simultaneously allowing us to to defend cryptography from quantum computing.
As far as I have seen, consensus is that quantum computing will be extremely unlikely to break cryptography.
And if it does break cryptography without defending cryptography, then it can also break all other online financial services..
Im not sure exactly what your point is but tell me where I'm wrong and thank you for engaging
@Jonathan Neufeld also how does bitcoin inextricably rely on centralized ISP??
@Jonathan Neufeld With proof-of-stake networks, Ethereum, and other DeFi projects, the problem of centralized exchanges and centralized ISPs will be solved.
"We have been producing U.S. dollars for 108 years. One out of every three dollars in existence have produced in the last 12 months." Sweet Moses.
Buy bitcoin
@@ColtWesson No it hasn't lol. What a ludicrous statement
I asked about bitcoin a few months ago on the monthly Q&A, and am really grateful to see this conversation. Thank you both genuinely for the dialogue!
I think Jonathan nailed it with his concern about bitcoins virginal utility. The fact that it is only money and nothing else is actually its greatest flaw. The summary of the internet going from absolute freedom to a system of total accounting and control is amazing to think about. Chaos and order crave each other. An extreme of one will inevitably lead to an extreme of the other.
I don't think Ben Affleck was understanding Jonathans point completely?
I'm not sure I agree. Money that only has utility as money is the strongest measure of value since it does not include it's utility value of zero.
Essentially money doesn't exist! The world has been acquired by a banking scam called "Credit", lending money. Everyone of us has no choice but support this bank trap because the world only works one way! Sure maybe Bitcoin is offering a new solution but Bitcoin is only as strong as the people who support it. Once people lose interest and want the next thing, Bitcoin will be nothing like everything else.
@@freeradical8440 But that's the thing. Since Bitcoin has perfected the qualities of money that a free market participant seeks for, it's adoption may just keep on growing as more and more people come to realize this fact.
If you want to drive in a car across country, do you really care about how well that car can chop an onion? Or do you care about that car's ability to safely transport your from one location to another? Bitcoin is engineered to be the best at being money. It doesn't need to be the best at anything else. Because that's not its purpose. It is a precision tool. Gold can be used as jewelry, but if it had infinite supply, then it would have never been money. The secondary usecase is irrelevant.
13:53 "One of the things that makes something valuable -- you named the 5 aspects of money, and what was surprising to me that I didn't hear in that is something like.... trust. Because trust is something which is beyond the system."
Breedlove responded well to the question I'd say.
Exactly. And that is why China does not export gold.
15:28 Jonathon poses a question and his interviewer addresses trust directly at about 15:40
I think maybe it is implied that these 5 things generate trust?
The 5 properties of Money: Divisablity, Reconizability, Scarcity, Portability, Durability and i believe the sixth most important Tangible physical asset.
Around the 40-minute mark he says "You're trusting the self-interest of every other market actor. And what else is there to trust in a Darwinian world?" He's taking for granted this is a "Darwinian world" and we're basically apes in a jungle. This isn't the reality of humanity. People often don't act in their own self-interest and "trusting self-interest" is basically an oxymoron. Not to mention the obvious answer to what else there is to trust.
Darwin himself even rejected this view later if I'm not mistaken. The nature of humans is cooperative as is the majority of biological functions.
How far does human cooperation scale? Certainly not globally.
@Jonathan Neufeld how is Bitcoin not working to a higher purpose?
@Heraclitus thank you. You helped me reconcile that comment he made about self interest. I couldn’t articulate it myself but what you said is exactly what I was feeling /thinking . Now who can answer the question of tangibility with Bitcoin? Because that is the one and only thing holding me back from investing a majority of my $. I’m afraid some kind of crisis or anarchy will erupt and I won’t be able to even access power much less high speed internet to be able to access my funds! I realize this would also include paper money , cuz atms are operated by power and WiFi as well, but idk just something about never being able to hold my money in my hands is unsettling. Not to mention not everyone even accepts or acknowledges it as currency yet .
Yes, this guy, Breedlove is so full of himself. Darwininan processes did not create life. Neither Bitcoin nor any crypto creates value. Darwin and Bitcoin merely lay out some rules for describing behavior and relationships, and possibly change over time. But, given, Behe's "Darwin Devolves" basis, Darwinian processes only divide further and further from originality. Bitcoin is the very definition of "legal tender" but it verges on CONTESTING the legal part. If you turn off the power, you turn off Bitcoin, so it is ultimately ephemeral. But it gains traction through network effects, as more people engage with it.
Jonathan’s intuition is spot on. The problem with Bitcoin is its lack of real value. Gold was never money simply because of its technical properties, gold was money because of its meaning first (utility) and then because of its properties that value can be stored/transferred conveniently. Bitcoin is all tech and no meaning. Its volatility is not a bug, it’s a feature.
Ha now I can make sense of "It's shiny."
Actually now I don't if we should be conflating meaning and utility.
Bitcoin isn't money. It is proof of work. Check out Vin Armani.
I'd respectfully like to add that in the digital ecosystem this physical gap will always be missing BUT digital currency is coming regardless and Bitcoin is the ONLY way to store value without involving a corrupt authority
I recommend reading the Theory of Money and Credit by Ludwig von Mises. In it, he lays out concretely and irrefutably that 1) all value is subjective and 2) all that are required of a medium of exchange are broad acceptance and a history of objective exchange prices. The history of money demonstrates the falsity of the regression theory of money (i.e. that a monetary medium must have some physical utility) -- the oldest form of money is credit/debt between transactors. Commodity money was a later development that allowed the economy to scale beyond the limitations of credit since credit requires trust. Commodity money has fallen away because technology allowed for much faster and more secure transportation of credit money, and trusted institutions were built up to facilitate those transactions. The idea of Bitcoin is to return to commodity money in a technologically advanced way to sidestep the issues of these institutions crumbling under the weight of their corruption because they abused that trust.
I think Robert didn't understand what Jonathan was pointing out.. With this interview I realize how important is to rely on God's providence and have God's love as the real value, every other value is simply a trick of the wizard of Oz.
God is the answer you don't have to think about.
The most telling line was when Robert said "we're moving from trust in authority to trust in self-interest". This is not just delusional, but satanic: trusting in our own interest over the authority of God.
@@skydancer1867 exactly!
The death of God was announced many decades ago.
Invictus God cannot die
Fascinating talk, regarding the authority of bitcoin, though it lacks that seal of 'symbolic kingship' if you will, I would say it derives a great deal of its authority from a completely different narrative. Bitcoin's appeal is in having 'faith' in two things: 1. An anti-authority, anti-hierarchy world view as expressed by Robert (i.e. an anarchist metanarrative) and 2. a faith that technology can deliver on realizing the potential of that narrative. When the results of a broken down society (anarchy) are realized, the proponents of the breakdown quickly abandon that faith in liberty and look for authority and order. At this point, trust in a 'kings image' comes to the forefront again. I can't see how bitcoin could survive the typical cycles of Babylon we have seen throughout history.
Regarding a faith in technology, one thing that was not discussed was Bitcoins reliance on complex global infrastructure. Bitcoin is bound to the infrastructure of the internet, it relies on people being able to access parts of the internet in order to engage with the necessary networks to trade its value. In the event of collapse and breakdown, what happens if this infrastructure becomes fractured and the world relies on Bitcoin as a global currency? Obviously, people would return to gold, silver and other hard currencies. Once again, bitcoin could not survive the cycle of civilization.
Money needs a face and a story, Bitcoin may not have a face but I do believe it has a story and it's a story a lot of people have faith in.
@Jonathan Neufeld Yes true, I heard one person say that things often collapse in the way no one saw coming. I don't fully agree, I think attentive people can have insights into the way the world is going. Nonetheless, Humans are very good at overlooking the ovbious problems and fixing the obscurities. Maybe this will prove to be the issue with bitcoin?
Jonathan, please continue to think about & make more videos on these topics. It also ties very well with the content you had on credit -- the attraction to crypto as an unconscious preservation instinct against the (intuitively sensed) upcoming cataclysm in a system that borrows from the future & accelerates time relentlessly to the point of self-destruction, as no value & production remains to be found in the present.
As Christians, we should also remain mindful that Satan appears as an angel of light, though, and be very careful not to see & seek salvation in our own doing. The cult-like blind faith present among the crypto community resembles the same idolatrous attitude toward science & technology, and the rest of the contemporary gods; I think your intuition is correct that it may very well be the next step, the next block of bricks in the modern Babylon. In the spirit of the Revolution of the Modern Age - per Fr Seraphim Rose - we embrace the forces that promise to further flatten the hierarchy, enhance socio-cultural and economic egalitarisnism, decentralization, and democratization, only to find each other further controlled by sin and disconnected from God.
I also agree with the other commentators who pointed out that, albeit knowldedgabe, Robert didn't quite understand where you were getting at from a paradigm thinking standpoint. Please know that there are many financially literate people out there & practitioners in the industry who understand the crypto space and who might not share his viewpoint. In any case - given that the interest in this technology is predominantly driven by feelings of avarice and/or wrath against the injustice of the authorities of the day - you would probably continue finding it hard to bridge the gap between the material/utilitarian and the spiritual/symbolic perspective in these conversations. And the difficulty is precisely why they are worth having! God bless you all! ❤
Jonathan made a great point about gold having story tied to it (crowns, thrones, etc.). You don’t have to persuade people that gold is precious. They intuitively know it and trust it. Bitcoin is a huge unknown. The decentralization of Bitcoin is anti-hierarchical. Society cannot function without hierarchy. When you break down hierarchy, new powers move into place.
In order for currency to work it has to be enforced. So I don’t see how it’s possible to get around the problem of central authority. Bitcoin is being compared to gold as a form of currency that both are free from government and central banking corruption. But gold didn’t prevent the dangers of inflation. I can buy that in some limited circles that Bitcoin could help keep the economy alive on the edges (in the same way gold and bartering etc helps keep the economy afloat during periods of high inflation / low trust), but it doesn’t fundamentally solve the central authority problem. You still have to establish an honest central authority to maintain the integrity of everyday transactions for everyday people. Also to compare Bitcoin to gold, gold is limited as a currency during times of crisis for the same reason that gold is limited, which is that people will hoard it and won’t spend it, which is what happens today, there are more people investing in Bitcoin as a result of distrust in central authorities than there are people spending it. And yes in marginal transactions Bitcoin gets used but not for the volume of transactions needed to operate a normal economy.
@@tscotts9699 what I meant by enforcement is that someone has to police the actual exchange, because the possibility of theft and fraud always exists in exchanges. I don't mean that people have to be forced to use certain currencies. And because policing relies on central authorities (because they rely on shared agreements), authorities are back in the system.
@@tscotts9699 I'm not talking about trusting the currency. I'm talking about trusting people who either will or will not honor agreements.
@@tscotts9699 ok if you send me a bitcoin today, I promise I will send you 1M worth of gold tomorrow
@@tscotts9699 You've made my point exactly. Physical reality is inevitable, central authorities exist to deal with problems inherent to that reality. So unless you want to use bitcoin to purchase other digital goods exclusively, there is no way to completely avoid central authorities.
Came into this not trusting cryptocurrency, and came out of it trusting it even less.
This is absolutely a treat! Love and listen to each of you. Bringing these ideas together is wonderful.
The only thing I know about Robert is what I’ve heard in this video, but it seems almost as if Bitcoin is his religion. “Bitcoin has no authority above it...” If there’s no authority above an entity is the authority.
I got a feeling of his awe for it. Weird huh?
I feel the same way. And my intuition is that the question Jonathan was trying circle around is "If the light shines so brightly, I wonder what the shadow looks like"
if you take a udemy coruse on blockchain and realize it yourself (takes 2-3 evenings) you become a believer)
it's a very simple and elegant mechanism, thats where awes are coming from
I think Mr Breedlove has almost convinced me about the benefits of bitcoin , but I can also understand Mr Pageau's intuition. It seems after that discussion ,that as we go forward, bitcoin is inevitably our best and only option, economically .
I feel that maybe it can function ,as a garment, which can protect us against totalitarianism that devours us with the same essence as bitcoin ,which is money .
I am still learning so, I hope my understanding wasn't too far .
I don't think there ever would have been a need for Bitcoin to be created, if it weren't for the evil & corrupt monetary system already in place.
One of my musings on money as a system is that it actually quantifies and captivates human life. It is a way to capitalize human life and turn humans into a commodity. I'd like to hear more thoughts and discussion on this aspect of money as a system which enslaves humans and turns them into a product.
Johnatan you are a smart guy and I share your vision of the cosmos in many aspecta. Still, I also think you should deepen your knowledge about bitcoin. In my view it doesn't seem to be an evil thing. Somehow it seems rather like something that give the average people more freedom. There are some issues yes about speculation, it is very expensive now but this happens outside the network. Not sure how that will be solved.
Robert is a very respectful soul.
Merci Jonathan de l'avoir invité.
"Eye of a needle." Do not be tempted to worship Mammon, regardless of its form.
The properties of money @08:25
1) visibility 2) durability 3) recognizability 4) portability 5) scarcity
Gets you thinking doesn't it? Amazing something that started out being mocked is now a digital currency rivaling gold. Reveals where our society is at in many ways.
divisibility, right?
That thumbnail is really well done
Hi Jonathan. The problem with cryptocurrency is PRIVACY. One important feature of money is that it needs to be fungible. This means that one monetary unit of a plumber must to have the same value of a banker´s monetary unit. BITCOIN´s most important feature is SECURITY and in order to have this quality it has given up PRIVACY. This is done by tracking and recording every single transaction. This is the Snowden critique. Hope it´s helpfull. Great job.
I don't know if this was his intent, but this guy succeeded in making me even more wildly concerned about crypto.
once Pandora's Box is opened...
Same here.
You got emphasis on 1. Self-interest, 2. Distrust, 3. Anarchy. A trifecta of red flags lol. But what if it's like a using death against death, flip thing 🤷🏻♂️
@@bradspitt3896 Exactly. The Dragon of Greed's weakness is its own greed. It will consume itself when it discovers its insides have treasure.
Haven't seen Robert Breedlove's commentary before, but it does seem he took an ideological approach to try to explain this to Jonathan. Probably a calculation influenced by Pageau's usual subject matter and audience.
If he was capable of explaining BTC in purely technical terms, it would be a different approach, and thus would have had a different effect on Pageau.
Perhaps the best conversation about Bitcoin that I've heard. Robert seems to be a straight shooter as they used to say. Idealism and practicality. I shall have to go back and weigh it against James Corbett's presentation. I appreciated your framing the later conversation around the coming totalitarian, zero-carbon, 4th Industrial Revolution (choose your own label) where the control of digital currency will be key to governing the globe.
Jonathan, have you read ‘Barren Metal’ by E. Michael Jones? Can you please do a video on usury?
I was just about to post this
EMJ would get Jonathan shutdown immediately. Maybe something can be arranged on some illegal pirate dark net.
Jonathan has a video on time, and accelleration of the timeline IIRC, where he mentions how usury is the opposite of sacrifice.
@@764Kareltje I’ve watched it, it’s excellent
That sounds good, will have a read....
One thing that is concerning about the dark money aspect of Bitcoin are Satoshi's coins from 2009. At the start of 2009, the pseudonymous creator of Bitcoin (Satoshi Nakamoto) was more or less the only one who was mining Bitcoin and appears to have accumulated a bit over 1 million BTC (about 5% of the total Bitcoin supply ever, and worth about $40 billion USD as of right now).
We have no idea whether Satoshi was just one person or a group of people and we don't know what happened to these 1 million BTC after Satoshi disappeared in 2010.
@@tscotts9699 Yea i guess I was being a little vague there. What I meant specifically is that we don't know what happened to the private keys that could potentially spend these coins.
@@tscotts9699 It's not so much proof of the security of the network but simply the security of the `secp256k1` elliptic curve chosen by Satoshi Nakamoto.
I'm not sure though what would happen if that curve ever gets sufficiently weak, which will be almost inevitable some decades down the line (e.g. via a breakthrough in quantum computing, or some other new computational paradigm).
I really wanted the “Dog headed” coin to come up. Did the elevation of a dog headed jester coin lead to the end of a cycle? (Obviously this was recorded before the major crypto sell off May 19th) #symbolismhappens?
That's a good point. He's assuming that the best coin will win, as opposed to whatever the 51% says. It's like plinko.
@@bradspitt3896 it might be worse than plinko. As soon as you say one coin is the “best” or “perfect,” making it the king, you immediately create a hierarchy that marginalizes some coins (crap coins). If “the king” cannot integrate the marginal, it eventually leads to the downfall. A pattern that is becoming all too familiar.
@@austinrush7748 Interesting analogy but I'm not convinced it applies to free market economics as well as it applies to a structured governed society.
To clarify, I mean the king/margin analogy. I think your Doge analogy fits very well, and I've suspected that it was a scheme to steal some of Bitcoin's thunder.
I'm pretty inept at understanding the whole thing. I know what I believe. What is the dog headed coin? Doge? Also do any of these have a physical presence? Tangible?
@@epsteenwusmerdered9878 Yes, I agree, Doge coin was/is undermining Bitcoin. I think this overall pattern applies to everything. If the king/head cannot integrate or “keep the faith” of the margin/body it eventually gets destroyed by it. You can also see the pattern in the movement surrounding GME within the stock market. In that story “the king” or Wall St (via a hedge fund) was trying to destroy a marginal company, GameStop. In doing so they provoked the “margin” or the “little guy” retail investor to rise up against the king. “Apes strong together” a la’ Jordan Peterson’s reference; if the head ape does not provide reasonable care for all the other apes, some lower apes get together and try to take him out. The head (Wall St.) must care for the body (investors) or the body will not continue to provide support. (I’m using “care” here as “play a reasonably fair game,” since we are talking markets.)
As a religious scholar Pageau should be able to recognize this as an idol.
“Perfected”, “Incorruptible”, these are just assertions without proof. Sounds more like a deity, but Bitcoin as a system created by humans as well.
Don't people idolize money already? This will continue whether money is paper, digital, or cigarettes
It's perfected and incorruptible in the sense that transactions cannot be faked or wiped from history- they will always be on the block chain and can be verified by anyone without the need of a third party. Since money is supposed to serve as a mediator of transaction don't you think it's fair to say that it is a more perfect system than untraceable bills or credit based systems that line the pockets of usurers? I don't think anyone is comparing Bitcoin to God, they are using these descriptors in the context of the utility of money as a mediator of exchange.
@@Ragniirox Turn off the electricity.
Another major blindspot Robert has is thinking that bitcoin is immune to corruption. He glosses over the fact that bitcoin runs on energy, something extracted from the physical world, and in doing so, ignores the fact that In the long run, whoever controls energy (which is becoming increasingly centralized) would control bitcoin.
Your hypothesis has already been proven incorrect with cases in Venezuela and other places. Energy can be attained in many ways, not only the earth. One hint: the sun.
You also have to ask 'compared to what'? Is the current banking system energy free? Banks, payment processors, the accounting firms, the regulators, etc all have power bills.
A real criticism would involve transaction speed
@@TonySharkks Not enough energy for mining bitcoin.
I found this interesting as someone who invests in bitcoin, doge, and ada cardano. I agree that crypto has great benefits and use cases, but to say bitcoin is the only real use case is surprising. The transaction cost of Bitcoin is massive, unlike doge or ada. They have a much better use case. I think the comparison to gold is accurate, because people don't walk around with gold and trade it, they use cash. That's what all the other coins (ada, doge) are competing for and they do have a use case.
And to play devil's advocate, should we really take the power of money out of the government's hands? It's not a simple question. What if the dollar becomes worthless compared to bitcoin and we need to go to war? How will the government pay everyone to go? How will the government pay for anything? They won't. It will strip the government of everything. And some will cheer at that, and fair enough. But there are some things we actually need like Roads, safety and some order in the country. Perhaps the govenrnment has gone so far off the deep end that it's worth flipping the board game over and starting over and seeing how things end up. But that puts us in a vulnerable situation. It's just something I have never seen discussed.
What's the difference between a government that taxes a corporation 50% to pay for its war, or a government that commandeers 50% of a company's production capacity to support its war? Maybe money is not the right medium to deal with war-time allocation? Dunno, just a thought.
@@jeremyjurksztowicz6278 a government could print 50 billion tomorrow and have it ready to pay people. To obtain taxes from a company could take a year unless the government just throws out rules and puts a new tax whenever they need money. And if there is a depression and no one makes any money, how do you obtain taxes? Basically, the govenrnment having the printer allows for them to deal with necessary short term problems.
@@mitchellwhite7335 Yeah, I'm saying that might create perverse incentives. Due to the cantillion effect the companies payed by that fresh money get the benefit of it before it has triggered inflation, maybe that's not a good way to organize for war? Someone will pay for that 50 billion print up through inflation, so again, why do we have to organize for war like that? Maybe if you have to commandeer a business it prevents you from running unpopular bullshit wars as you _need_ the cooperation of your citizenry and army to do that, while you only need some corrupt central bankers and some media hegemons to run a modern war these days. Honestly this is a big question and I'm not saying this is the right answer, but we should also check our assumptions about money and maybe discriminate where it's an unproductive medium to use (i.e voting should not be based on money).
In the far past printing currency was not what you did to go to war, if you are say prince purple of the violet estates you needed to do things such as “save up money” to be prepared for war. Also such things as government bonds exist, so if the people are willing to pay they can help fund the war effort. Also borrowing money, which is more ethical then just relocating wealth from the citizens to the government
Did anyone see the recent interview by Lex Fridman with Sam Harris? They talked about Christianity and Peterson stuff... it would be awesome to have Jonathan comment on what was said. It's very interesting how there are two very different worlds on TH-cam, given that the interview was very well received by the atheist audience of Lex. Lex seems to be the latest TH-cam celebrity to really champion the scientist/atheism worldview.
I'm a follower of Lex. He has some very interesting guests on and he is very insightful. I know that he's probably an atheist on paper, but it's funny how much of his worldview is still shaped by Judaism and Christianity without him perhaps even being aware of it.
Bitcoin limitations:
1. Mass coronal ejection
2. Access to the power grid
3. Access to the internet
4. Not easily scalable (only the tech savvy can safely use it)
And the one Jonathan will love the most...
5. Direct access to the blockchain for transactions is extremely slow, so exchanges/wallets sprang up to mediate transactions. Of course the exchanges charge you a service fee for every transaction. When you put your bitcoin in the collection plate, it will pass through a money changer. Holy symbolism.
1. Exaggerated problem. We can predict such events and prepare the power grid to some extent while small electronics can be protected easily with Faraday's cages.
2. Solar panels.
3. Starlink.
4/5 is why forks exist. Many found BTC had problems so BCH and others forked off BTC. We'll have to see what the future brings about.
Q. Who wants to work hard for 0.00001 BTC? A. No one
Commenting before listening. Hope to hear discussion about the ineluctable movement towards hierarchy and centralization -- things that the cryptobros claim is impossible with crypto.
Robert emphasized Bitcoin as personal sovereignty and agency, flat, democratic, with boundless possibility (ie, the influence of time), as well as immutable, incorruptible, uncounterfeitable (ie, the influence of space). Overall I got the sense Bitcoin sways more toward the chaotic, and that Jonathan would prefer more of the hierarchical structure of "traditional" currency. Jonathan's point about the shady characters who haven't built anything is ominous for sure. "At least Bazos built something"
Beauty, Jonathan. That is the word you are looking forward.
36:00 All of the transactions of Bitcoin are totally visible and public. That's a potential avenue for how it could be weaponized right there. There are cryptos that don't have this feature, like Monero, but Bitcoin specifically has totally publically visible transactions.
I’d be embarrassed by people seeing how much I spend on chick fil a and how little I spend on real food.
@Fllamber interesting. It'll be worthwhile comparing their privacy features to that of dedicated privacy coins.
@@SavannahSedai bahaha! Can relate.
Great conversation! As others have pointed I was very uneasy with some of the statements, Bitcoin the hope for a better humanity? Sorry maybe I am to old to believe in such stories, we have a popular saying not everything that shines is gold. That said, I completely agree with your guess image of the Banking system.
Bitcoin is too good to be true.
This Robert guy seems to have good knowledge on the topic, and he makes good points. I think no matter what road we take, we're headed deeper into globalism.
It is interesting to listen to this after the recent crypto crash. Breedlove says that "Bitcoin has zero percent unexpected inflation." Well, it just lost half it's value overnight, "unexpectedly". Will it swing back up? Sure, maybe, even probably, eventually, temporarily...? As the big boys sweep in and mainline it, what has emerged is that they intend to pull no punches in driving down its value at least in the short term causing short term inflation for retail investors and long term value for the rich. It is also fascinating that Jonathan arrives at the same place as many market analysts through dissecting crypto currency's symbolic value -- and that is that it will be everything or nothing at all.
You seem to be conflating inflation with valuation. It's "zero unexpected inflation" because the number of coins is finite and released on a transparent schedule. The value can go to 100k or zero and it's not inflation.
@@kennyg1358 understood & thanks for the clarification.
I personally am excited about the possibilities of crypto currency. Jonathon pointed out a few potential issues that I haven't even thought about. But Just to respond to Robert's reply to Jonathan's issue regarding shadowy figures emerging out of a "one world bit coin currency". Sure, unbreakable rules would prevent things like inflation and other tricks that the big banks use to rig the system but these tricks are tricks within a system. They're the foundation of that system, printing money and the fiat currency. I would say that we are greatly under estimating human ingenuity, if we believe that any system is unbreakable or rather unhackable.
I'll be honest guys I didn't really like it. I don't think a bitcoin evangelist is who Jonathan should be having this conversation with. When Jon talked about how we don't know who owns the bitcoin we missed out of a great conversation. almost half of all bitcoins are owned by fewer then 50 "whales" who could plummet prices by selling a small portion of their holdings (according to 2018 data), that seems symbolic to me. There's tons to be hashed out symbolically with the volatility - "Amazon is more volatile then bitcoin" okay but Amazon isn't money either.
I never hear these guys talk about the 3 economic uses of money (a medium of exchange, a unit of account, a store of value). It could be just because I don't follow crypto that closely, but I think theres much more to bite into symbolically than the 5 attributes of money. Typically, bitcoin is believed to fail to the latter 2 uses because of the volatility. - for example, I wouldn't feel comfortable setting a price for an 8 month lease with my tenant in Amazon stock. To complicate things further, there are reasons wage contracts are negotiated in nominal terms instead of real terms.
The question of whether or not bitcoin is a bubble is also a great conversation. Theres tons of symbolism to discuss comparing this crypto bubble we are in now with tulip-bulb, Dotcom bubbles etc. What mechanism exist (or not) to short bitcoin if you lose your confidence in it, or believe its not priced correctly. What could be happening around us right now that is fueling bitcoin idealism? What can be said about the liquidity provided by central banks engorging crypto... etc?
I get that I'm probably coming off as very anti-crypto, in reality I'm Lukewarm. I'm just playing the devils advocate to show that if you can see both sides of the conversation you'll be able to see what's going on symbolically much better (I think anyways)... Like I promise theres a better conversation to be had than just bitcoin is the greatest thing ever and the banks are evil. The worlds not that black and white guys.
I would love to see a conversation between Jonathan and someone like Patrick Boyle on the topic.
The volatility is only an issue because not everyone has Bitcoin. The dollar fluctuates too on the forex. I'm not a Bitcoin evangelist, just sharing information. Once everyone uses BTC it will stabilize, IF it gets to that point.
I rather invest in bottle picking to be honest
It's a very important conversation, I'm glad to see it moving beyond "bank bad, crypto good." Statements like bitcoin "can't be corrupted" seem incredibly naive. It would be great to see Jonathan delve deeper into the implications of blockchain technology, tokenization of assets, and government digital currencies. I'm not anti crypto, it's another tool. But it's one that can be used for nefarious purposes.
I agree with Alex, this conversation was biased as F!....the guy was selling Bitcoin trying to prove how great it is....Jonathan wasted his breath trying to tell this guy about the deeper meaning. He didn't even grasp Jonathans objective view. Wrong guest on the topic.
You had me up until banks aren't evil. Not that they are necessarily; I think Richard Werner explains why the German banking system has historically been good to the German people. Other than that, and that means almost all other banking, it's evil.
@ 22 mins I found myself wondering, after Jonathan’s point around the gold being dedicated to something higher. Like it’s being used to hold something in reverence, it itself is submitted so that it doesn’t become the highest value. And the talk of it’s perfection, even for me as a fan of Bitcoin, and holder of. I wondered, what’s left over. What’s the corners of the field as Jonathon might refer.
I wonder if NFTs might be the answer to that. That by creating a place where art is holding the value. As art can’t be delineated, it always has to speak from outside of the system.
This is a wildly valuable conversation so far. Thank you to both for having the courage and wisdom, and the space they hold for each other’s varying perspectives. So much can be learned from that alone. 🙏🏻
I'm a software engineer who's been following crypto since 2013, and this guy gets so many details wrong it's painful.
"Everything else is just a copy of Bitcoin": half-true in the early days (LTC, DOGE), but we now have dozens of alternatives, from Proof of Stake, to holochains, to DAGs and more. There are so many different implementations and innovations I couldn't begin to list them all here. One big differentiator with the current #2 coin (ETH), is that it's "Turing-complete", and so can run complex smart-contracts, which is why it's used for NFTs.
"No one can control Bitcoin": Also only half-true. The core developers have significant soft-power (influence, though not control); but the miners have the hard-power. While the protocol is technically decentralized, there are a small number of mining consortiums that control over 51% of the hashpower. If they decided to run a version that removed BTC's hard-cap of 21mil coins, that would become the new chain (and/or, the chain would fork, which has happened multiple times, per Bitcoin Cash). This is roughly the way every blockchain works; Bitcoin is not special in this regard.
"Only market-proven solution is Bitcoin": A highly contentious value judgment for crypto generally. But beyond BTC, there are NFT's, crypto stock markets, prediction markets, even "decentralized autonomous organizations" that provide digital services like storage or computing. Bitcoin is no more or less "market-proven" than any other blockchain, except as evidenced by the price. How much of that is evidence of its utility, and how much is a Ponzi scheme (or tulip mania) is in the eye of the beholder.
"Divisibility, durability, portability, recognizability, scarcity": This is just silly. Some coins are designed to grow forever; if you want to ding them on "scarcity", fair enough (although there are also non-BTC coins with fixed allocations). All four other properties are present in other cryptos; and even the coins that will grow forever have scarcity at any given moment, same as dollars, despite the Fed continuing to print more.
I'm only 10 minutes in, and I'm already cringing to see what comes next.
"The free market selected gold as money": the history is more complicated. Many commodity currencies have been used (Romans sometimes used salt, hence "salary"). Often money was simply a debt to the king: tally sticks broken in half with a stock and stub (this is where "stock" comes from). While precious metals have been used to store value for millennia, the infamous "gold standard" in America was a top-down decision by the federal government, and only lasted a few decades (post-WW2 to 1971).
"Bitcoin cannot be used for anything other than money": another silly claim. A blockchain is essentially a database which we've chosen to imbue with economic value; but that database can also contain arbitrary data (albeit, small amounts, limited to block size). One practical use (again, not limited to BTC) is "proof of existence": I can encode the hash of a digital document, and prove in court beyond a shadow of a doubt that that document *must* have existed at the date and time that I encoded it into a transaction. There's a whole ecosystem of "side-chains" that use these database characteristics for non-monetary purposes.
Tying the price volatility of BTC to the block reward is also absurd. (a) Miners make income on transaction fees in addition to block rewards; (b) mining returns fluctuate with energy costs and new innovations in hardware; (c) whatever the intrinsic merits of crypto, its number one "killer app" is still speculation, so of *course* it's volatile. Often that volatility is actively gamed, in so-called "pump and dump" schemes (see what Elon Musk has been doing on Twitter); that activity is (mostly) illegal for stocks and other asset classes, but entirely unregulated for crypto, for better or worse.
"Hyper-controlled world currency": Bitcoin is pseudonomous, not anonymous: while identities are absent, all transactions are public, and a dedicated sleuth can trace and de-anonymize transactions. Other competing cryptos (Monero, Zcash) have much stronger anonymity baked into the protocol. Moreover, while feds and tech giants can't "cancel" anyone on a blockchain, miners absolutely can: if the miners decide not to honor your transactions, or disappear your data, then you have no say whatsoever (except perhaps to fork your own chain, and hope that others will honor it).
And of course we cap off with the most nonsense claim of all: that intentionally wasting the electricity of a medium-size nation will somehow incentivize innovation in green energy, as though humanity didn't already have sufficient demand for energy. The very issue is that energy sources with high externalities (carbon, war) are the most cost-effective to generate, move, and store (wind and solar are cost-competitive to generate, but limited in use because storage and movement are much more expensive). "Proof of Work" is a generous way to say "Proof of Waste"; and what's more, better alternatives can accomplish the same goal. Many coins already use (or are moving to) "Proof of Stake", whose energy cost is a rounding error by comparison. And while there are arguments that PoW is more secure than PoS, the same goal can be accomplished with much lower-energy algorithms (Proof of RAM, Proof of Storage, etc).
Don't get me wrong: I'm bullish on crypto. It's a fascinating space, humanity's first worldwide experiment in free banking, and all the good and bad that goes with it. It's here to stay, and it's going to lead to both good and bad things, just like any technology. But it's very polarizing, and neither the haters nor the evangelists should be given too much credence. Do your own homework. (The original 2008 Bitcoin whitepaper is surprisingly readable to the layperson.)
"If they decided to run..." But they wouldn't, because their entire operation relies on Bitcoin retaining its value
You’re my symbolic mentor 🤓
Great talk! As I’ve dipped my toe in the crypto waters I’ve discovered Robert as a very thoughtful guide. I appreciate his philosophical approach. I’m trying to go into crypto with my eyes open and with the thought that anything that sounds too good to be true probably is at the forefront of my mind. I’m long on Bitcoin for now.
I wish you had a conversation with Vin Armani on Bitcoin. Bitcoin is not money
Bitcoin is money whether you like it or not.
@@kennyg1358 Cryptocurrency is a ponzi scheme, whether you like it or not.
@@christianlacroix5430 define Ponzi scheme. I have a suspicion you don't know how they work.
@@kennyg1358 They are investment assets, are they not ? Just look at the history and crashes of investment assets and you'll understand crypto"currency". Herd mentality, people are convinced to keep buying something without any value. Just like modern art, paying 20.000$ for a banana with ducktape. I'm not saying you can't make a lot of money, of course you can (loose also). I'm saying that they will not be in any way the future of economical systems.
@Mephisto von Döbelstein it’s a value transfer network, you can’t own Bitcoin th-cam.com/video/Hn1bmC3Pafw/w-d-xo.html
Did no one tell Jonathan that there is a man teaching a course on bitcoin right now that calls himself an Orthodox Christian named Vin Armani??
That's not to say that Robert did a bad job. This is the first time that I had heard him and thought that he was great.
Vin Armani however, gets on every show that he can to talk about the spirituality of bitcoin.
Many of us commented on Jonathan's twitter about Vin. This is the first time I've heard of Robert and he seems great but Vin Armani has made me think about Bitcoin and crypto in a way that almost no one else has.
@@jessecortez9449 yeah man I have had the same experience. I'm not on Twitter, but I'm in the same camp as Vin; I came to Orthodoxy vert recently and started my intellectual journey in economics.
Wow ! This is Breedlove at his best .. this guy is awesome such deep knowledge of monetary policy
Awesome interview and Jonathan you focused on the exact points where a paradigm shift is currently underway in the world where BTC and the blockchain are concerned. I've been studying this for a few months now, and I still struggle at times to shake off these built in beliefs around money. I do hope you will have more BTC discussions. Very helpful and great guest! TY
The fact that you can make nothing with bitcoin, can get no pleasure from consuming it in any manner, makes it valueless... Robert completely dodges that question when it comes to the value of using gold. I hate when I hear wordy garbage like that to defend bitcoin. Bitcoin is the king of fiat currency, because there isn't even a government to defend its value. It is a huge bubble in the market that will eventually pop.
I don't know if it makes it valueless, bit it makes it extremely fragile.
@Mephisto von Döbelstein I think they're saying gold has value not dollars. But money can still be used as paper or something else.
And as far as shorting Bitcoin, the speculation on a new financial invention is part of the narrative whether you're long or short. The issue is bringing Bitcoin to the center.
@Mephisto von Döbelstein Yes, dollars are also valueless. If the government wanted to, they could inflate them thousands of times with no recourse. Only things have value. Gold, silver, bronze, bullets, food. Things can also not inflate without the effort needed to produce the thing, like he was saying about bitcoin, the difference is that a thing can be used and a 1's and 0's in a computer cannot. Bitcoin has even less value than a dollar though, because at least a government backs the dollar. Bitcoin has no backer and thus no value.
@Mephisto von Döbelstein Something I should have distinguished earlier is real value vs perceived value. Real value is something useful that can never lose value. Perceived value is only valuable because people say it is. This is fiat currency. I don't trust things that only have value because people say they do. This doesn't mean they cannot be used, but I will not be investing my future into them.
this dude is in love with an idea. "beautiful".. "incorruptible".. "emergent".. "unique".. "perfected".. hard to listen to. but it gets better.
I got the same vibe. Sounds very much like an ideology
This is like watching 2 sides of the brain debate.
Mad at the Internet
+ the Symbolic World
______________
= me
Same.
No matter what, bitcoin or not, we are moving to a world whereall transactions will be naked and open for everyone to see...in that sense, it lacks hiddenness.
yet is very dark
damn it was so profound.
Great interview. got me to reflect on a lot of stuff
Jonathan's question, what is bitcoin is a great question. The way I see it is that it is the leviathan (Thomas Hobbes)/embodiment of consumerism (just like fiat currency although with bitcoin its easier to ignore). Consider what is the physical nature or body of bitcoin? It is vast amounts of computers (which need to be constantly replaced when they fail) in containers, most only specialised in bitcoin activities. They consume large amounts of power to run and keep cool. The power and material comes from the consumption of material resources. Then consider what the purpose of Bitcoin is if you put aside the money trade element? It is purely to propagate itself in validating transactions and validating the network. It's only monetary value comes from peoples attention on it and it's value in real world item trade. Take away peoples attention to it, use in trade, or take away access to the network or your wallet and the value would disappear and the specialised computers left behind become junk. Speculation with trade is the only use that comes from Bitcoin at least with gold you can use it in the real world for other thing than money.
I don't mean to come off as rude, but almost every point you made is factually incorrect or baseless conjecture. I doubt you're interested now, but some day if you're ever curious about Bitcoin/crypto a good starting resource would be the best seller "The Bitcoin Standard" by Saifedean Ammous
@@TonySharkks I appreciate the response. Can you elaborate?
It was good to hear a decent set if arguments against Bitcoin. I love the comparison to the darkness. It feels right that bitcoin would be the store of value that holds monsters beyond comprehension; monsters that will devour you. Yet also it is the store of value from which you could retrieve the relic that will give you the power to slay dragons. It just feels right.
"Abandon all hope, ye who enter here." is the first sign you see over THE GATES OF HELL.
"We are moving from trust in Authority, to trust in Self-interest." is the sign over the GATE of the 9th CIRCLE OF Hell.......😲😲😲
FANTASTIC conversation ......
Disagree with Jonathon’s point of Bitcoin being an “un stamped” coin. It’s the other way around, the ultimate stamped coin. Every transaction that occurs and every Bitcoin that changes hands is stamped by every node in the network. And the transaction is only acceptable if every single node agrees upon the transactions which is then put into an immutable ledger. Thousands of computers are all agreeing on the validity of the coin and the transaction itself before it is minted into the block. There is no way to fake a Bitcoin or a transaction on the network. The difference is it’s authority and trust comes from the entire market and not a centralized entity.
I don’t understand the technical aspects of it and probably never will, and that might be fine. Jonathan has such a way with words.
The challenge of this conversation: can this economist talk to this philosopher?
Yes, I totally agree. His answers didn't really get at what Jonathan was talking about.
Hardly a philosopher.
The guy was selling Bitcoin to us, that's what I see happening here.
@Jonathan Neufeld Well, considering the boomers essentially wrecked the economic futures of all the younger generations with their greed, can't say I blame them for going all in on crypto.
Great discussion, but there are two simple problems that come up with regards to this new phenomenon:
1. I as an average person will never fully understand how Bitcoin works on a technical level. Therefore, I will have to place my trust in the "fact" that Bitcoin is not controlled by anyone and that it is incorruptible (divine?). In other words, I will have to become a believer in the god of Bitcoin.
2. Assuming that Bitcoin is truly as advertised, that it will always remain decentralized and incorruptible, then there is the problem of who owns the infrastructure/technology that facilitates the possibility of Bitcoin's existence in the first place. Who owns the fiber optic cables and the PHYSICAL components that connect our computers, cellphones, etc., to the the internet? Who creates the silicon microchips that "mine" and store Bitcoin? We forget that the very same authorities that give us the freedom to be on the internet, buy Bitcoin, etc., could easily turn all of it off tomorrow if they so please. Even if other, independent companies stepped in to solve this problem, someone more powerful can always come to your door and demand that USB stick with the stored Bitcoin over.
That is why there is indeed only ONE true incorruptible, always stable, and always secure currency that we as humanity already have access to and can even transfer to the eternal life, and that is the LOVE of the one true God - the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Amen.
God bless, and keep up the great work Jonathan. Christ is Risen!
I would love the world in which you bring on Nassim Nicholas Taleb. He has a different opinion of Bitcoin. He also has an excellent moral intuition and fortitude.
Does he have a TH-cam channel or Twitter where he talks about it?
@@bradspitt3896 yes. His Twitter is all about economics, trading, fat tails (symbolism of Fat Tails would be 😽), mathematics, Mediterranean food, and deadlifts. Don’t say stupid things on there. He will block you. twitter.com/nntaleb?s=21
I’ve read “Fooled by Randomness” which is a good book for a general audience. He has others that are highly praised too.
Its interesting that people expect more from bitcoin then they do to traditional currency.
Getting heavy crypto / money advertisements on this video haha
You asked all the questions I had (with a few bonus ones) except for this - Is there a way that governments can outlaw Bitcoin?
From what I understand there are two things they can do to "take away" your coins:
1. Pull you off the grid and take away your internet/connection to the blockchain somehow.
2. Force you to give them your blockchain address. Similar to FDRs gold confiscation.
If they did either of those two things though, the totalitarian cat would be out of the bag.
@@bradspitt3896 “RELEASE THE FREEDOM HOUNDS!”
No they can’t. Bitcoin is too big now. They would have shut it down already.
You can take you Bitcoin off the blockchain and keep it in “cold storage”
All you have to do is memorize you seed phrase and you can take them across borders or whatever.
@Brad's Pitt
1. Remember, Bitcoin transactions are just information, so they don't have to be sent over the internet. You can use a satellite network for that, or even just radio signals.
2. You can create a multisig wallet, in which your Bitcoin has 3 or more private keys, and one would need 2 of 3 keys, or 3 of 5 keys, etc, to acquire your Bitcoin. Then, you keep one and separate the others among family and friends whom you trust. It's not absolutely foolproof (nothing is), but it would make it difficult for the state to seize your Bitcoin, when even *you* can't with your single key! (And of course, when you'd need to spend your Bitcoin, you'd have to get your family/friends to cosign the transaction, too. This was just for the adversarial situation you described.)
So no, there is nothing any government can do to stop Bitcoin. It runs on the rails of energy, time, math, and game theory, so to break Bitcoin, one would have any break those things first.
@@jasonsellers56 You're asking people to cover themselves in antiquated tech for that though. At most, if it got that bad, BTC would only be used on the margins. To participate AND keep anonymity requires a lot of effort. Just look at /r/privacy.
Very interesting talk and guest. I believe all the questions you asked were balanced.
If bitcoin were incorruptible, it should not have any exchange value. No connection to fiat currency at all. What prevents the wealthy from speculating on bitcoin as we speak, and fully abuse the fable of 'cooperative self-interest' that the common portfolio owner believes in? Bitcoin is still part of the very cycle its users wish to break. This pattern reminds me of the modern desire to move from fuel to electricity as the main energy carrier. And that ideally we would all produce our own electricity. It turns out unfortunately, that we need an even bigger power grid with more sophisticated control to handle the fluctuations of this decentralized production. With the internet and the financial markets this is no different. Pageau is fully right that the Bitcoin grid is just begging for authority to step in.
Vin Armani would be a good guest in this regard. He's been on Paul Vanderklay's channel and I interviewed him as well.
He just came out with a book called Render Unto Caesar: Prophecy, Profit, and Proof Of Work in The Dim Age
He's a recent Orthodox convert I beleive as well.
Another positive is he gets away from this "Bitcoin is money" angle
Jonathan: "I think Bitcoin is either all or nothing, and therefore nothing"
Entire crypto market: "what have you done"
@Jonathan Neufeld it's true, it sacrifices low-cost transactions for security and censorship resistance. That's a feature, not a bug. Plus, there are plenty of other blockchains out there more suitable to handle payments rather than ultimate settlement.
Jonathan: One online "coin" market recently reported nearly 10,000 cryptocurrencies with a "report" capitalization value of $1.62 trillion USD. My professional background, before retirement and becoming a "mountain monk," was accounting, auditing, finance, economics, central banking. Many of Robert's descriptions and points are valid, Bitcoin is amazing digital technology, but we all live in a fallen world (Genesis 3) and there's NO escape except metaphysically and spiritually.
Great show Jonathan. Will you be at the cutting edge of creating Orthodox Iconographic NFTs?
I am not sure if someone else mentioned it in the comments, but I would really recommend you have Vin Armani on. He is deeply religious (orthodox christian I think) and is a big proponent of crypto. Unlike Breedlove, he is not of the view that BTC is the one and only and has a much more nuanced take on the actual value of cryptocurrency. He might be a better fit for helping you get your head around it. He is also the person I discovered your work through.
Wow I really only just sort of heard about bit coin never looked into just thinking it was some kind of background thing happening. This video kind of shocked my system the way he described it
Bitcoin is hope. Buy as much as you can
I like the new quite logo flash instead of a full cut
Great discussion.
Looking greatly forward to the next one.
Hi Jonathan, I’d encourage you to reconsider your idea that Bitcoin is pure potential. It seems in fact to be an extremely defined tool, or as Robert said, a game with rules that can’t be changed. The supply is fixed at 21 million coins, the halvings occur at predictable intervals, and it has a very limited number of possible uses, the clearest being digital gold.
Regarding the issue of trust, that is where decentralised blockchain technology comes in. A great way I heard it explained is that rather than having the ledger of financial transactions stored securely in a bank that you trust to keep it accurate, everyone who uses Bitcoin has a copy of the ledger, and the network makes sure these all agree. The trust comes from consensus across the network.
On top of blockchain technology you can build smart contracts, which take out the middle man in financial transactions, meaning people can deal with each other directly through the network without the need to trust an intermediary authority. Bitcoin is not really being used for this, but other cryptos (e.g. Ethereum) have taken the blockchain technology that Bitcoin introduced to the world and gone in that direction. Their precise aim is to remove the need for trust when interacting with others.
This should be titled, "Interview with a Bitcoin sales rep." Bitcoin is heavily manipulated. It's a currency where a guy like Elon Musk (who thinks Bitcoin is bad for the environment) can open his mouth and your "money" drops to half, a quarter or more of it's value in a week. It can take months or years to climb back. It isn't a slow gradual climb. It tends to happen lightening fast, and it's hard to predict when the rocket to the moon will happen. Most people end up selling out of fear before that, or they try to trade it using stock market analysis strategies, all of which work until one of the big players comes along and plays everyone else. Will you be in it when the rocket happens, or will you get in only for it to be a fake out? Will you try to catch a falling knife when it tanks? Even the experts end up looking stupid on a periodic basis.
Thats its bane and boon it seems, its volatile nature means at least in the short term your money is liquid, it will go up and down. Our current fiat currencies however only go down, generally gradually but thats all they do (in fact at least in the past the leading economic theories proported that deflation must be avoided at all costs). Another big problem is that most people arent using it in daily transactions, they use it as an intermediate between common currencies and as a way to get more money (kind of like stocks).
Perhaps if it was commonly used it would stabilize more, why wouldnt it really thats how standard fiat currencies work as well
I think it's important to disregard the short term volatile price swings of Bitcoin. A good way to see the signal through the noise is by looking at the 200 week moving average price of bitcoin, which you can see has only gone up in 12 years.
You're stunningly brainwashed. Do some research. Bitcoin is perfect money. Fiat currency price swings at the moment mean nothing long term. Just wow 🤦🏻♂️
Interesting, thought-provoking discussion. Definitely food for thought.
Johnathon is an Idiot.😆 tell you what? Stick with fiat of your master..I'll see you in 10😆😆😆😎
Wish Jonathan had done just a little more research on what Bitcoin is and how works prior to the conversation. It seems he went in pretty blind about Bitcoin or crypto is in general which lead to some big misconceptions on his part. But still, fascinating conversation.
"no one's talking about it" (central banking/fed res) - yeah, except my grandpa every summer I visited stayed with him when growing up 17 years ago.
He meant no one in mainstream media that feeds the zeitgeist of the average consoomer
Jonathan
What are your thoughts on potentiality and heaven? Are they the same? Are they different? Do you have content assessing these two? It seems Bitcoin may be a type of digital heaven? I could see how some could pick that up if they have an austrian economic view. They veiw reality in a struggle against scarcity. So the earth is seen as a world of work instruments. Thank you.
Two of my favorite philosophers together in one epic youtube show! Love this.
Jonathan, I concur with your concerns. Although I see the points your guest is making, if a government decides to control the internet, how can I use Bitcoin to buy anything? At least with something tangible it has value, in minimalist terms, the ability to barter. If internet is controlled, what will Bitcoin allow me to purchase or barter with?
I have a strange supernatural experience concerning bitcoin which corresponds to Jonathan's intuitive feeling regarding it.
Long story short: I had a strange meeting at the crossroads in a small Spanish village. I meet an old woman who said that she always takes the bus but this day God has told her that she was supposed to meet someone. She asked me if I believed in God and I said yes and then she knew it was me she was supposed to meet. She said that God had big plans for me. That I would have the world economy in my hand and wear a suit. She said it needed someone humble and broken to be in that responsible position in order to know what to do with the money. She sensed it had something to do with bitcoin, which I didn't know much about at the time. She said I should do communion alone each day and seek God and that I should follow him like a sheep. She even said I would be able to heal people and prophesies. It seemed like a deal to good to be true. She asked me to close my eyes and I felt like some fluid came over me. It was like I had taken some drug. My mind was vibrating, the surroundings were floating and I felt strong. When I came home my girlfriend noticed there was a strange light around me. I told her everything and the first thing she said was "I don't know where she was send from."
Then a weird synchronicity happened. I got an e-mail from a cryptocurrency forum saying that there would be a rare chance to invest in some specific cryptos right now and that this only happened every fourth year. This would make you rich. I kept getting e-mails asking me "Are you in?" "Are you in yet?”. It wasn’t the ordinary junk-mail but from a more reliable source. I thought if this really was a message from God I wouldn't dare to deny it, but on the other hand I knew this could be something deceiving.
After a lot of discussions with my girlfriend and some outside help from a christian medium who said that this was the darkest darkness he has ever seen as he didn't think it was a real person I met, I decided to stop doing the communion and abort the cryptocurrency plans, even though I had set up all the websites and was ready to stay up that night and join the forum.
My girlfriend and I took a walk after I decided to stop and during the walk we saw a strange number of cars with 666 on the license plate. I have left out some details to not make this the longest comment in youtube's history, but I am sure that something happened at the crossroads that day, because I felt stronger and more enlighten than ever. One night it felt like I was emitting light and love and it was so overwhelming that I could hardly put myself together. I now think it was an ominous deceiving force behind all this. As the Bible says "No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money” and ”The love of money is a root of all kinds of evil”. Of course this leads to questions about the mark of the beast, which crypto could be a part of. The end development of this crypto-evolution could be the finalisation of Satan’s communistic utopia and a false heaven on earth, where each person, who joins the system, will get enormous wealth, freedom and all the ice cream you can eat while everyone travels and explores their ego-centric new-age spirituality for a while. I think the mark of the beast will be too tempting for most people. God knows, but we are surely in deceiving times.
But how would bitcoin be different from your current money, which is already digital?
@@jonas_westh As they said in the discussion: Todays money is based in gold but bitcoin is purely digital. Notes & coins do still exist which means that your wealth isn’t purely digital but can exists in the outside world as well. You can therefore buy and sell without a trace and without you being registered as the buyer or the seller if you want. When money becomes purely digital it limits our possibilities and makes everyone depended on AI. A development we are already seeing.
Todays system is by no means good and I think it’s just a matter of time until it’s totally replaced by cryptocurrency which will be seen as a better and less corrupt alternative. After some time we will probably suffer the consequences of having a purely digital currency which will be controlled by the worst one imaginiable. Your ability to buy and sell will be controlled and switched off if you don’t acquiesce.
@@antonolandersson5019 I get what you are saying, but we are already dependent on AI for money. The beast system is already here, and we are all a part of it... for now. I mean you could draw out all of your wealth into cash and coins, but then you would be screwed when inflation hits. You see what I mean? If we are already in the AI evil rabbit hole, why not choose the currency which seems most promising, and able to liberate you quickest?
@@antonolandersson5019 Or in short: Your wealth is digital no matter what you do. You could store all your wealth in physical gold, but that seems equally risky as depending on AI in my opinion. Let me know your thoughts
@@jonas_westh I totally agree. We’re already depended on AI and there is no way out if you want be part of the system and be able to buy and sell.
Although I think there will be some further development until we are in the actual beast system, which will mean much more evil things than what we’re currently experiencing in todays system, and I think crypto has something to do with it. It looks promising at first with its ”peer to peer”-philopsophy and that every transaction is open to avoid corruption, but as the system is new and we don’t quite know the rules crypto obeys it will likely f*ck us in the end as every economical system always do. Only this time we will be proper f*cked as our redemption will be at stake.
There is a patent called 2-0-2-0-0-6-0-6-0-6 which involves crypto and looks suspicous to say the least. As anti-C-h-r-i-s-t is called anti-C-h-r-i-s-t for a reason there will be a reversal or an up-and-down turning of everything C-h-r-i-s-t stands for. Hierachy is essential in c-h-r-i-s-t-i-a-n-i-t-y and crypto will partake in the breakdown of hierachies which we are already seeing all around in society.
I think crypto fits the prophesy well. The love of money will be more important than the love of God and I think the beast system will make each of us face that choice. It will be like when C-h-r-i-s-t got tempted in the desert.
Best video on Bitcoin I've ever come across. Good stuff
around 31:00 On potentiality vs actualization ; it takes massive real energy to give value to this virtual currency.
This question is longish.
It seemed to me that a central banker in control of a fiat currency like the dollar would have seen Bitcoin coming along and at some point decided to head off Bitcoin's potential to ruin the fiat currency game. The way to do that would be to use the unlimited fiat currency to buy an overwhelming position in Bitcoin and from then on manipulate Bitcoin's price as you would any other cornered market. A BC booster told me that activity like that would be noticed, and there are people who specialize in identifying who or what entity these big players are, and that no central bank has that kind of position in BC.
I thought, well that's good. Until somebody took the logic another step and pointed out that if they can identify a big player, then it's just a matter of motivation for them to identify anybody, and probably everybody over time.
In this context
1) is BC private?
2) once identified, can an individual or entity be excluded from BC?
Thanks
Transactions are necessarily linked to wallets, but wallets aren't necessary linked to people. This is the dual nature of privacy in bitcoin and many other cryptos.
@@jeremyjurksztowicz6278 The claim that an analyst can identify a big player has the corollary that all players are potentially knowable. True or false?
@@jamesdewane1642 As far as I can tell it has the same characteristics as regular cash for money laundering purposes, if you do not try to hide your transactions then you can be identified (pretty much the same as credit/debit/cheques). If you try to launder your money by say exchanging it at an off-shore crypto exchange, or making fake purchases from a shell company, then you are pretty much in the same boat as money launderers today. The thing I'm not sure about yet is if the ability to create dozens of wallets easily changes the game, it's a bit in the air still. Gold is still way more anonymous though. Interesting times!
@@jeremyjurksztowicz6278 If John S says "I bought 1.1 BTC at 5pm" you could look at the ledger and see that transaction and using other metadata it would be possible to identify X wallet as his. If you're careful you can be anonymous though. The privacy angle was one of many reasons for the 2017 fork war which lead to developers making more privacy-centric coins like Monero etc. Considering how centralized gold is I wouldn't consider it very secure. This goes double if the physical gold isn't in your possession, like in a vault. With things like multisig wallets your bitcoin can be secure from even a wrench attack situation
@@jeremyjurksztowicz6278 Right! I have the same suspicion as Pageau, that we're trading out some oligarchs for others, or not even changing them! And there's no way to test the guest's assertion that oligarchs under Bitcoin is better than oligarchs without Bitcoin. God, community, land and livestock!
In that Bitcoin is integral to the internet, what happens if the internet goes away for whatever reason? What happens when the next big thing comes along (bytecoin?) and people start dumping their Bitcoin to buy into the new thing?
People nowadays think this is impossible, but that's EXACTLY what the Rockefellers have been preparing for. People will one day wake up and find out they are disconnected to everyone else but to local authorities through traditional means. That's the true Great Reset.
Why would people dump? Unless some sort of state mandated global block of crypto trading occurred for that specific coin why would they dump? Simplicity is key, bitcoin it seems is exceedingly simple and iconic. Why swap out your bitcoin for the same thing but with a different name? Not counting the centralized competitors in the market
Bitcoin is already fonctionning via satellite network, can preform well via Radio wave... to stop it you need to stop electricty. What would be the cost of cutting power ? ;)
@@brastionskywarrior6951 I’m because something else promises better returns? Because so many people are trend-driven? Because people get tired of the volatility?
@@mblaydoe i will agree too many people are treating this as a way to make money but the line goes up over time and shows no real signs of stopping. All fiat does is go down and right now it looks like its really gonna start going down. Bitcoin just doesnt do that in the same way
@15:25 - Money doesn't have authority; it can go from everything to nothing just like that.
Yes! just look at places like Venezuela or Cuba in the last 2 decades. Money meant nothing. Bread had more value that bills. People were selling commodities for like $200 per item.
I see a lot of you criticizing bitcoin, so I'm wondering, is fiat currency (which isn't backed by anything) a better option? Is it okay with you that our government can simply print money?
I think most of the critique from Jonathan to bitcoin is actually a critique of money in general. Fluctuations are to be expected, crypto isn't perfect, just much better than any other money. You still should make actual use of that potential.
Can you please do a breakdown of the BTC symbols and the Symbols withing cryptocurrency
22:20 There it is, if Bitcoin is closer to pure potential than gold, then it is also subject to chaos in a way that something more tangible wouldn't be.
If something is as ethereal as BitCoin is you can't hold it. You can hoard Gold and keep it's universal value and carry it outside the borders of a corrupt economic system. BitCoins are volatile by definition. Am I wrong in this analysis?
A related question: what happens to bitcoin in a Carrington Event?
I didn't realize Ben Affleck went from actor to Bitcoin expert? Thanks Jonathan for having Ben Affleck as a guest.
I've a specific question, Jonathan.
Could you make more short video's? (Under 10 mins) I'd love some video's I can just watch when I don't have much time about interesting subjects like this!
Looking forward to your response!
(Thank you for your content though, I am enjoying it very much, it's the very reason why I am asking this 😉)
There is Jonathan Pageau - Clips channel.