The World’s Mack | Chapo Trap House
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Episode 608 - The World’s Mack (3/7/22)
We’re back from the first leg of our tour of the South and here to look at the responses to war in Ukraine brewing in the foreign policy op-ed world. We’ve got reading series by Shadi Hamid in the Atlantic and our old friend Max Boot in WaPo, both asking “well, yes, American foreign intervention has been very bad in the past, but maybe this time it would be very good?”
#chapotraphouse #chapo
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Trump is still the greatest for suggesting we paint PRC flags on our F22s as if militaries identify aircraft by the tiny flag painted in its side
Still?... never was, my man 🤦♂️
@@reinarforeman6518 you're gonna be pissed in 2024
@@berdyderg900 if everyone in politics refuses to let us ease into decline then we should at least have trump for it because he is entertaining
@@bossplayerunit4563 it's the death america deserves
That definitely makes it into the top 100 dumbest things he has ever said
"This is what decline looks like. It means that you don't get to decide what happens anymore." This episode is a serious breath of fresh air, and contrasts well with the shrieking liberal Iraq Leadup 2003 Manichean fury online. Amazing how many of the specific arguments made against Chapo in the comments were predicted and addressed, like accusations of an America-centric viewpoint, justifying Russian aggression, etc. Even specifically saying "we obviously oppose the Russian invasion" won't stop libs hearing the opposite.
Quote you: "Amazing how many of the specific arguments made against Chapo in the comments were predicted and addressed, like accusations of . . . justifying Russian aggression . . ."
Are you sure about that? Could you point to a specific argument you found impressive?
Because to me it was all just empty words. Chapo just standing their with their thumbs up their asses while peppering abstract philosophical observations with lame qualifiers like " . . . we obviously oppose the Russian invasion . . . " doesn't quite seem to "address" anything in my book. Russia is killing and making homeless millions of civilians, destabilizing Europe and making WWIII inevitable. Seems like it ought to be worth more than a passing "yes . . . but".
@@robertfreitag687 What exactly does the 'lame qualifier' "we obviously oppose the Russian invasion." qualify? I don't get exactly how you could bolster that qualifier to make it more forceful. "We *really* oppose the Russian invasion?" What are you looking for exactly? You seem disappointed but I'm not sure what you expected.
@@refoliation Are you fucking kidding me? Starting some abstract discussion about political point scoring in Syria while millions of Ukrainian civilians are killed and made homeless is not "opposing". It's not even a respectful display of grief. Chapo couldn't even be bothered to think about how these refugees are going to be successfully integrated into European society or how Poland is going to resist Russia's inevitable insistence on genociding these people to secure their territorial claims.
@@robertfreitag687
If you're
wondering how chapo makes money despite
its lack of class then repeat to
yourself it's just a show I should
really just relax for chapo traphouse
Theater 3000
@@timchuck9969 Let's keep to the topic. It's not about Chapo's finances, or Chapo's sense of decorum. It's Peter's weird interpretation of anything Chapo has said to be "opposition". If you need to remind someone about the performative fakery of Chapo, I think it's Peter.
Based Chapo pissing off libs and dengoids at the same time
You definitely misunderstood, both Felix and Matt have taken the chinapill
Something I'm surprised they didn't bring up about Terrell was when he accidently went to a Antisemitic themed restaurant in Ukraine thinking it was an acutal Jewish place. He was also nearly shot by a militia and was hanging around some far right group without realizing it. He took a picture of one of their signs with their emblem and on it was a cossack. Julia Ioffe pointed out how troubling that is because the cossacks of course where responsible for some of the worse of the pogroms in the days of the Russian Empire. Terrell was apparently surprised by that revelation he didn't know about. Amusing for someone passing themselves as a Russia-Ukraine expert. He's just Mr Magooing his way around Ukraine.
I bought a russiagate to put at the front of my chapo trap house
Virgil has joined the Ukrainian Foreign Legion so he can write his post-war book “Homage to Kyiv”.
I wish I listened enough to get this joke
Actually he groomed a minor
Virgil Texas groomed a minor?
@@Rompelstaump Yes he groomed a minor, which is why he's getting a fast-track promotion at the Azov Battalion HQ
i think its called the reddit battalion, not the ukrainian foreign legion, i could be wrong tho
This is some good pushback against the recent propaganda and they articulate it in a way I can’t quite put my finger on and formulate an argument in my own words. And let’s not deny that the propaganda itself is nauseating whether it’s the drooling over Zelensky, the “bad ass” stories about the “Ghost of Kyiv” (which hasn’t even been proven to be real), the last stand at Snake Island (which didn’t happen) and the commending of the Ukrainian girl supposedly standing up to the Russian soldier-which ended up being a Palestinian girl who was clearly wearing clothes one wouldn’t wear in a Ukrainian winter and an IDF soldier. The backtracking on that one is especially hysterical.
the thing on Twitter/Reddit/Facebook the other day was an Ukrainian babushka taking out a Russian drone with a pickle jar. Huh... sure.
@ Gag
Will said something along the lines of 'If everyone is responsible, than nobody is.' I think that's why the neocon-aligned people are so obsessed with making sure there is everyone now is towing their line (and is on the record as such for future retrospectives).
I kid you not, the Oxford Union had a former MI6 Chief, friend of Tony Blair and Boardmember of BP, to discuss Putin's invasion. It was a choice.
probably one of the guys who put putin in power in the first place
I'm no commie, but you guys hit this one out of the park with humor and style. Keep up the good work, NO WAR!
Be cooler if you were ❤️
What are you?
>I'm no commie
Cringe tbh
capitalism is the root of all war friend you can’t get to one without the other wishing you well though :)
Just keep readin and questioning pal
Syria also happened on Hildawgs watch. Imagine where we would be right now in the middle of Clinton Term 2
Full scale war with Russia that started in term 1 i'm pretty confident
@@davidcrandall5794 she gotta catch those russian bots, ya know, theyre just too good at posting
probably invading Ukraine. like an idiot. like a dummy. like someone power hungry and doesn't know what to do with themselves.
Honestly, as much crap as Chapo Trap House gets, (which yes, they are genuine real thought out criticisms you can make about them, from ideological stagnation and hitting a dead end wall , but that´s just the entire US left in general) I´m incredibly glad they never went the "easy route". What do I mean by that? Going the easy money route and pander to US labor aristocrats and middle-high class, e.g: (Unlike Sanders) They never called to increase the bombing in Syria and intensify the imperialist intervention against the legitimate regime of Assad, they didn´t declare the FluTruxKlan as a """""working""""" class movement, and they aren´t dick riding Putin or NATO in this imperialistic war on Eastern Europe.
I´m glad they´re an example of ideological consistency and at the very least, some sense of leftism in the imperial core.
I've been getting into my arguements with my sister over this the past week and I cant find a way to word my opinions other than this. We, as Americans, are so conditioned with instant gratification that we want to send troops in to evac civilians and fight the Russians. That might look good in the immediate future in our TVs with the assured propaganda of US Troops saving Ukranian children. But we need to be looking at the long term effects of what US involvement would cause.
We also don’t need any more Nazis here than we already have, especially Azov children Nazis lmao.
Yeah lmao the propaganda would suck too because we would absolutely get washed.
Does your sister understand that Americans fighting Russians means nuclear war means nuclear Holocaust means end of life as we know it? What is wrong with Americans?
@@cameronpatterson130 Shes just got the liberal attitude of "oh so you want these people to just die?". And no I dont, but American soldiers arent knights in shining armor, they're soldiers.
No need to talk about the hypothetical, there are plenty of examples of us not having a positive impact on other regions.
Matts wife’s White Ukrainian joke was the funniest joke of the year.
Felix has the darkest soul of them all: The Dex Soul
My God, they're referencing people I've heard of before, what is the world coming to!
Chapo, thank God.
So, even though people are getting extremely war hard. I do think maybe something is happening because of the internet. Hard to tell so close in, but I think there is a more refined collective memory because of the internet. So much information is retrievable and has been discussed by so many people that it is growing into out collective consciousness. The external memory of the internet is changing each subsequent generation, I think. If we survive 30 more years it will be clear. It is clear that we are no longer limited to whatever TV clip, or paper article we can remember from 20 years ago.
And it's rather quick too. Live updates on the battles show that Russia lost as many soldiers as the US did in Iraq over the course of 2 weeks. Ukraine is a close second, but they're getting some shots in. This was well known to the people online who were keyed in to the issue, but I think the normies are finally starting to catch on.....Russia is blowing their load on Ukraine and it's all over their chest.
From Monk to Rogue to Samurai Sorcerer.... Who doesn't love a good Dex build?
Surprised this needs to be said but I'm happy to do the honors - this episode is based as all hell.
literally fucking insane that Felix is promoting dex builds
unsubbed
Bleed 4 eva
Can you all discuss Victoria Nuland (former advisor to Dick Cheney), the NED, and the Center for New American Security? NED president has been quoted saying "a lot of what we do today was done covertly 25 years ago by the CIA." Lots of problems here specifically involved with Ukraine.
"Fuck the EU"
Strength/Faith build FTW! Buff all the things.
good ep
Swag saints stand up. Afghanistan speccin into dex builds. 20 years later, where's my healthbar mac? HP...used to...used to...shine in the sun...in ancient times when the seed first fell.
Can someone please dub Joe over some Dark Souls or Elden Ring gameplay?
heads up there are new softcaps
Keep spitting you are my lighthouse though the fog.
Even though it was pure fantasy, like any drug, I miss it and would give anything to have it back.
Nice hearing you boys making some sense
Ukraine, what street is that on ?
Corner of 2nd Ave and 9th.
Whats funny is the assumption that the groundswell of support for Uke springs solely from the U.S.
Shows that admitting even a little conspiracy brain isn't doing a cheeky little irony, it's building the shadow aristocracy in your head where nothing can come about if it's not the CIA's machinations... Uncritically imagining the citizenry as livestock that can only act when puppeted by secret masters.
spoken like a coward who won't self-deploy to Ukraine to fight the Russians.
@@feydrautha012 I'm not American tho, does that mean I'm off the hook?
t. coward
@@supermarx I've nothing against people calling out Western imperialism whilst simultaneously being against Russian/Chinese imperialism, in the same way that you can chew gum and walk at the same time.
This episode tho is like chewing gum whilst lying flat on your face.
NEW NEW LFGGGGG
12:24 Yes, this is the Sam Harris - Middle East argument being made all over again.
lol, can they not get through an episode without thanking Joe Biden??
Felix nails it on small dogs.
Nice to have you back on the right side, boys.
Oh dear, something is wrong
Hey man, I just want Russia to knock it off because I'd rather die of climate change than nuclear war.
And you guys aren't wrong about America's shitty past, either.
Why not both?
“past” lmao
Yeah, past tense America sure was a pretty bad thing...
Fucking libs who learned where Ukraine is 3 weeks ago thinking they're always the smartest person in the room somehow
@@berdyderg900 libs, amirite
wise words. humans can't become extinct from climate change. but that other thing....☢💀☢
52:50 What’s the war crime that Terrell Starr accidentally reported on in his first week? Search engines aren’t being helpful right now. Links pls?
Shooting an ambulance that wouldn't stop for an unannounced roadblock, then killing those inside.
@@brokentower3148 cheers.
Ok - so the war crime was apparently an ambulance being stopped at an unannounced checkpoint & then being shot up? I haven't been able to find this footage... someone provide a link pls?
@@aa.bb.9053 provide it for yourself or pretend it didn't happen because you didn't see it. Stop expecting anyone else to give a shit which you go with it.
@@captainfantastic7643 I would like to be able to cite and reference this footage, specifically because it is important for people to know about it. And I do not expect you to "give a shit" about my request. That's why my request was not addressed to you, but to anyone who might have a link and wanted to help. Please be more reasonable & in control of your reactions on this topic. Thanks.
I should have asked this years ago, but what are some good books from a Left perspective on the War in Iraq?
Ha-freakin'-ha. How the hell would they even think they'd be able to arrest Putin? Besides, I'd wanna see Dick Cheney, George Bush, et al prosecuted for war crimes before anyone else.
Gasp!! (note the high fallutin' morally indignant tone)
Wu-helll. Who let the commie in the comment thread? Didn't we tweetify all of you people into silence?
Look here, Comrade; there are two groups of people in this world; the people (them) and THEE people (us.. well, obviously not you). And you can't just go around applying standards across the board, holding everyone accountable, being fair and shit. You know that stuff doesn't work!
I mean, what's next? The right of all people and nations to self-defense? The end of Global Jim Crow... the "Rules Based International Order"?
Next thing you'll be hollering for universal health care or some other abomination.
You know what your problem is? You're just jealous, hate "us" because of our freedom, want to spend other peoples' money, are a Russian bot, Chinese agent -- how's the weather in Moscow, btw? Do they pay you in Renminbi? "Ha-freakin'-ha"? I can tell English isn't your first language, cuz', well, I can just tell....
Now try and triage those concerns in order of active threat of nuclear war to the recrimination of past grievances.
@@RH-ng9qm - lol, interesting style
@@numskul - Gee, from what I've gathered, it's basically the ignorant 'muricans who keep pushing. So if they'd just shut up n stop using Ukrainians as cannon fodder by handing them weapons they don't even know how to use, this would have been over already
Has Matt Duss ever been on Chapo?
This was the first time I heard someone compare giving weapons to Ukraine like the taliban or Al Qaeda…
The Azov Battalion and others like them are worse
I know, they are white
I thought Yeltsin put Putin in power.
Who put Yeltsin in power?
Exit NATO, open the borders 😵
29:40 The Great Trial moment.
Actually do do wokeness sounds like a good name for a new competitive hardcore Minecraft team
Is there any argument being made here except that American conservatives are hypocrites for condemning Russia for doing the same thing we’ve been doing for decades?
To push back on something you guys said about sanctions. If the global community(the EU, Pan African Parliament etc ) decided that after our invasion of Iraq that the would impose sanctions on American politicians, businessmen and companies. I don’t think I would have opposed that. I mean I was 7 at the time but still
52:50 What’s this about?
Terrel jermaine Starr’s tweets from Feb 27th
@@hobochangba7638 have you got a link? I can’t find anything about it
You really got to mark these as full episodes
At 12 15 i heard doo doo wokeness and i cried
amber frost has a dog?
No, Matt's new girlfriend has a dog. He divorced last year.
You guys should try to get on your mom's house while you're in Texas
12:00
As a leftist you should always stand with the masses and love the people. We don't love the people, we don't show internationalist solidarity, if we starve the Russian masses - and make no mistake, that is what sanctions will do - over the actions of their bourgeoisie imperialist nation-state.
The correct internationalist position is to support the Ukranian masses in their protracted people's war against a foreign aggressor, not as nation states but as an international leftist movement. The fact that Ukraine has banned communist parties has made this much more difficult ofc, so perhaps it is high time they remedy this error so that we may aid them.
Secondly it is our duty as leftist, to agitate our masses to protest for peace and deescalation on our side of the fence, just as it has proven that the Russian masses are doing in massive protests on their side of the fence. It is not your duty to attack or condemn the other side, that is for their masses to do.
This is the only correct anti-imperial line. All deviations from this is either counter-imperialism or pro-imperialism.
lol “protracted peoples war” its been like, what, 2 weeks?
@@timchuck9969 You should probably look up "Protracted People's War" as a term.
@@GormTheElder ...what part of Azov battalion is building dual power again?
@@ZenobiaofPalmyra Obviously, the Azov battalion does not represent the proletarian people's movement in Ukraine. I don't know if anyone does or if anyone will be able to do until the Ukrainian nation-state has fallen and given way to true people's resistance movements.
@@GormTheElder This just reads to me the same as people who use like tier one operator callsigns and “kinetic apprehension of the individual” in regular life. Like, in what sense is it a poletarian movement when their leader is their President?
Just talk normal and maybe a real “proletarian” will actually be able to understand this shit
Lot of comments on this episode. Gotta say they sound defensive here
N-CD
Amazed they don’t get carpal tunnel from all that finger-wagging.
matt just screeching over everyone
damn cant believe hed do that for the 608th episode in a row
@@tommyhowsthepeeping damn, Felix is vaping on the pod again!!!!
Leftist here... first time I have ever disagreed with Chapo.... does that mean I can't listen anymore? shit.
I know, it's depressing isn't it? They're kind of going down the tried-and-true path to failure of 'brand consistency over practical impact'. They've done it before, but his is still kind of shocking to me.
The Right Wing is about Aggression and the Left Wing is about Restraint. In 99% of daily interactions Restraint is the way to go. But if they can't recognize that there are important exceptions--like literal life-or-death situations--maybe they're not as smart as we give them credit for.
It may be occasionally wise to err on the side of brand consistency, in the name of securing majority or plurality support, but I have yet to find anyone who would regards fleeing from conflict as a good sign in a political champion.
You can't be a leftist and disagree with their take, lol
@@robertfreitag687 "Fleeing from conflict" or not seeking out conflict? 2003-style dupe right here.
pretending anyone cares whether you agree or disagree or do or don't listen is a thing you do for you.
@@commenter381 So you don't think 2 to 3 million homeless Ukrainians darting back and forth across the border with Poland to fight the Russian army is an issue that is eventually going to find you?
Okay. You do you.
“Let’s talk about Ukraine”. Spends 35 minutes complaining about the U. S.
Are we just gonna pretend there is nothing to say about America in relation to Ukraine?
The US is heavily involved in Ukraine and the world order which has created this crisis. Why wouldn't they talk about it?
@@c.andrew3944 nah bro... you just suppose to forget that the president son used to work for a Ukraine company and that Johm McCain praised the Maidan coup on the ground in Kiev... what are talking about are you pro Russia? Are you literally Putin? Does Putin listen to Chapo? Probably
The thing I love about internet culture is how far apart a conversation's momentum is from the validity of the arguments. There's always like 3,000 dumbass comments that are like "What?" and only one thoughtful one that shows even a glimmer of intelligence behind it. It's almost as if the "likes" count means the exact opposite of what we're told.
Cope
@@sailingoiesauvage5484 LOL! 2,999 to go!
the thing i like about internet culture is you talking to yourself and thinking your part of a culture and patting yourself on the back for setting up little amusements like using 3000 in a comment so you can use the 2999 line on the first person who responds to you in what basically amounts to saying, if you respond to me your a loser.
@@captainfantastic7643 Well, if you're hearing me, I can't be talking to myself. See how that works? Or do you need somebody to literally draw a picture for you?
BTW: 2,998
As someone from the right, it's refreshing to hear leftists who haven't lost their brains. You all are cool stuff 👍 no sarcasm.
"As someone from the right" lmao shut up
@@returnalnocturnal7729 Imagine berating someone who agrees with you on like 80% of things and upvoting your own comments like a goof.
@@MikeLiteraus Stop patting yourself on the back
@@MikeLiteraus then how tf are you on the right? Confused mate.
@@bleedingmay I am fine with socialized healthcare, but very tight controls on immigration. Naturally if the borders were open and we allowed everyone in and take advantage of it, it would crumble. I however am also a big fan of capitalism, not the corporatism of today. I also think we should allow drugs to be legal and no restrictions on firearms. You should be able to do with your body whatever you want to and be able to protect yourself as you see fit. Overall, though I want strong families, because statistically with two parent households that is the biggest indicator of success. I also do not want to control anyone on how they live their lives nor should they for me. I honestly could write hours about my views.
"with absolute childlike credulity literally anything that comes out of the ukranian side of the war."
boy, this didn't age well.
You probably think it's a draw lmao
@@berdyderg900 you might have brainworms
@@NameNotAlreadyTaken2 those Nazis are being executed as you read this,cope and seethe
@@NameNotAlreadyTaken2 explain how this has aged poorly
Have your position changed in the last year?
I agree with the war fever thing, Americans seem to repeat that mistake, classic. I hate tankies and would hate to think chapo is one of those 5,000 too online people.
So don’t think it, duh!
You don't seem to do much thinking anyways, so I wouldn't stress out about it.
imagine still using the word ‘tankies’ unironically - your cognitive dissonance here is a great case study; white liberals are outing themselves
Can I take a poll here? How many people think a joke gets funnier every time you re-tell it? Like, verbatim? Ad infinitum? My guess is that it's a fair number of you.
Zizek always likes to take surprising positions. I agree with him more often than not. But on this one I just don't know where he'll land.
But if Zizek were to disagree with Chapo on grounds of the urgency to fully resolve the growing Ukrainian refugee situation, I will absolutely piss myself laughing because you know it will be at most a week or so until Chapo does an about face and falls into line.
Zizek has actually weighed in, and his take was surprisingly nuanced for him.
rubbish take on tankie pushback. Chapo is too close to Grayzone types, and it shows.
"Tankie" means "I am a liberal that likes leftist aesthetics but have never challenged my own liberalism or read into leftist criticisms of Social Chauvinism and Kautskyism"
You are a liberal and it shows
thanks for your opinion,lib. now you can continue to see the west wing and vaush
You mean real left
"Too close" ...where are we in the 50s era witch hunt?
While nothing they said was technically inaccurate, the focus of their rage is insanely telling. They're not mad at people who cheered this invasion on. Just the people trying to use it to make america look better.
So stop listening to the show then
@@timchuck9969 lol, what a cop-out to criticism
@@abstractalien12345 I mean, if you genuinely think that they're moral monsters, I don't know why you'd continue to turn to them for entertainment week after week. Lot of pods out there
@@timchuck9969 still a cop out. I dont think they're moral monsters. I think their coverage is suffering from some deep biases. The story of russia's invasion is not "US bad". Their sensibilities seem to leave them unable to acknowledge this or cover the story accurately
@@abstractalien12345 I mean, Chapo has always addressed foreign policy from a US-centric lens based on the idea that, as Americans, that's the only thing we have any modicum of control or responsibility for. You can agree with that stance or not, but this isn't coming out of left field for them at all. There are plenty of other left-leaning FP pods you can turn to for a different type of analysis
Question to the general public here: If anybody less-than-completely critical of NATO should enlist as a foreign fighter in Ukraine, does this same line of reasoning require anyone critical of the USA to join ISIS? I doubt it, but I'm not seeing a clear throughline that doesn't require both.
Wat?
NATO is a good organization. They are trans-national, women can join, etc.. Very professional. NATO was not strategically smart if their goal was to avoid war with Russia. They were basically playing chicken with Putin. He flinched, he gets what's coming to him. I think Chapo is trying to iterate what could have been done differently, but they're high guys on a podcast that can only mention so much. They support the DSA's statement on the issue and I think that is enough.
Let's prioritize this, my dear Robert. Chapo doesn't need any more criticism than what the "patriotic" Republican moderates can throw at them.
@Atropus Arbaalish It's how I use my adjectives. Very jarring. You never would guess how effective it is to provide emphasis on whatever subject you're talking about. Pretty weird actually, you'd never believe it. Believe me.
@Atropus Arbaalish Don't trigger me.
Jfc your attempts at "logic" are quite possibly the stupidest things I have ever read
I squat with the Russian people. Fuck up the fash, Vlad.
ooof
It's great that you squat on russian dudes. But you don't need to comment about it.
i was gonna say something, but i'm gonna take it outside of the Chapo comment section
@@Molecular-Brainwaves-Translate no no, go ahead.
@@reinarforeman6518 nah. anti-fash sentiment is good no matter where it is. i'll take it outside.
Chapo fell off man.
Yikes 😬 bad take man 😨 oof 🥴 real self report there buddy 😱
@@GormTheElder +ratio+bong hit
Wow are you actually LITTERALLY oof like wow can you just like wow can't even
wow this honey is not it. mega yikes
Fell off? What?
Notice all the right-wingers and Tankies in the comments supporting Chapo? This is what you have become.
You know they're mostly MLs also right?
Oh no. Chapo has come to the point where they've still got dorks like you in their comments dorking it up and failing completely to convince anyone of anything.
"Tankie" means "I'm a liberal and engagement with leftist politics beyond feel-good signifiers is uncomfortable for me".
doing left wing politics is reflexively disagreeing with anyone I don’t like 👍
Anyone who calls an M-L a "tankie" is probably a sad anarcho-Bidenist who never leaves their twitter account. Probably some sad terminally online anarkiddie in their early twenties or late thirties who has never helped out at the food bank or with a refugee resettlement group or with *anything* really.
"Tankies" are the only leftists to offer any kind of short-term and long-term solutions, they're the only ones I've ever seen organize effectively (even the IWW disappoints in the Southern USA).
People like you are useful fools for the U.S. empire, keeping the working class divided and ineffective with your sectarian bullshit, unable to think critically through the blantant propaganda.
"Tankies" are the only leftists I ever see helping at meals on wheels, or at the shooting range freely teaching new people self-defense, or at the warming centers passing out blankets and food. They're the only ones I ever see do anything in the real world. It's why I went from an anarcho-syndicalist to an M-L, because they were and are the only leftists actually out there actually doing shit in my area. They're the only *organized* groups I know of for hundreds of miles.
I support Russia 🇷🇺 💪
Y
Good god man why?
based
Engaged in the Left's favorite past time--playing abstract philosophical games while the world burns. Awesome show, great job!
Man, this really broke your brain, didn’t it? Posting the same comment over and over just to engage. Do yourself a favor and log off for a couple of days, now is the time, take a complete pause from the news cycle. You can’t carry the world on your shoulders.
For the record, this isn't just a simple re-post--I've deleted the original. The point isn't to "flood the zone" as these jackasses seem to think is possible in a forum with nearly 1,000 other posts. I had to clear the channel of non value-added bullshit from morons like Bont (whose posts I NEVER comment on and yet who always somehow seems to find me). The point is to scrape pieces of crap like Bont off my shoe.
@@robertfreitag687 , really adding some intelligent conversation.
@@ericcarabetta1161 Is that a question or a comment? This isn't my only thread under this episode. In those other threads, I elaborate on the theme summarized here. So if you are trying to get a better idea of where I'm coming from, try responding to those threads or asking a real question here.
seethe nerd
(25:20) (Will) "If you bring this up, as people have been wont to do with good cause over the last two weeks or so you (Chapo) are increasingly being accused of doing whataboutism and you're doing whataboutism and engaging in a Russian propaganda effort. And to that I add two points. The first is: if you don't think whataboutism is relevant to the moral or ethical standing of the people fucking like demanding things of you here and now, if you can't assess or use their previous conduct to assess their current behavior and opinions, then I don't know the fuck you're even doing paying attention to the news or history or anything. The second point is: and Felix, we talked about this a little bit, if you think that we Chapo Trap House are engaging in whataboutism on behalf of a Russian imperial project or we are apologizing for an aggressive war, you know an invasion of another sovereign country by Russia or whatever ... don't listen to the fucking show." (Followed by Felix, and a little from Matt)
They seem sensitive about this, offended and disinclined to process critical opinions from (some part of) their own audience. There is always the option to just let it go and keep on moving, but instead they feel attacked, circle the wagons, and launch a defense counterstrike against some of their own listeners. Fun fact: most of the audience is really here to have fun, and this level of defensive negativity isn't fun for anyone, not us, not them either. *Isn't CTH supposed to be humorous, entertaining and informative discussion of political, social, cultural, historic and current event topics?*
They could have literally maintained their positions 100%, just explained their positions, without being so sensitive and sounding so defensive, and continued to have an episode that would be fun instead of negative. In the reading series in this episode they do proceed to lambaste typical American hypocrisy as presented so predictably by media hacks.
they don't seem to want to engage with, explain to or be held accountable to morons. They're making the gamble that they'll be just fine without needing to pander to morons. I reckon they'll be proven correct. I think people bitching about how this line harshed your entertainment buzz will prove to be in an irrelevant minority. In fact if you think Chapo will lose fans by being dismissive and "negative" about stupid opinions then I doubt you've ever listened to the podcast. Shitting on idiots and the influence they have in making the world a worse place is exactly the entertainment value the show provides.
@@captainfantastic7643 What a baby you are acting. Just like they are acting. No matter how cautiously worded a criticism might be the response is dramatically defensive and butthurt. Awwwww.
I hope this is a copypasta
You seem like a prime candidate for someone who can just stop listening to the show then
@@fyt54321 you're mistaking the audience of your comment for people who see you as their equal when the nature of your comment makes it explicit that most people here are incapable of responding to you in anything better than well meaning condescension.
Here's the problem--Russia's invasion can only be justified in terms of the norms of amoral power politics, not humanitarian intervention, not "justified national interests".
Ukraine is NOT a Nazi state. It just makes no sense to believe that there is this entire, amazingly lethal organized battalion of the Ukrainian armed forces dedicated to antisemitism who somehow failed to realize that their own president is Jewish. Full stop. That idea is dumb. Just dumb.
Of course that's just Russian propaganda. And your first instinct about propaganda is to say that it means nothing at all. It's just the kind of irresponsible trash talk that combatants always sling at one another, regardless of their moral positions.
The reason people engage in that kind of extreme trash talk is obvious enough. If they're engaged in a physical fight, obviously relations have already broken down so far that there is little to no faith in any kind of neutral mediator to whom they can appeal. If either party did think they had some trustworthy mediator, likely they'd be couching their language in those terms. You know, they'd be calling each other "cheats" against the terms of some kind of contract, something that can be adjudicated, rather than "Nazis", which I think it is generally agreed are the benchmark for total and irredeemable evil.
Which is why I fear this conflict can't be negotiated away. The Russians clearly don't believe they have a case that some independent tribunal that would look upon favorably. On this single point, at least, I think everyone agrees.
There are lots of really deep in-the-weeds arguments about whether certain foundational treaties were made under a kind of duress during the collapse of the Soviet Union, or whether the existing tribunals are "packed" against the Russians, etc. There are a lot of convincing points that can be cited to support this point of view, but if you step back and look at the near unanimity of the world community in placing economic sanctions against Russia, and the determination of the Ukrainian population to resist the Russian army, it's just impossible to say that this amounts to a fully conclusive case for irredeemable corruption in potential mediators. If world opinion means nothing, then by definition democracy itself is a sham and mediation is impossible.
So if we're at a point where there are literally no nominal demands that Ukraine could comply with to satisfy Putin, we're most likely in a completely unrecoverable downward spiral of increasing violence.
Zelensky already offered to forego any NATO application. Putin didn't accept that. Obviously. Although, as some commentators have pointed out, that may almost be besides the point considering one of the technical requirements for membership is the lack of any active border disputes.
It's pretty clear that Putin just doesn't believe anything NATO says. He has a point. The border dispute technicality pointed out above didn't prevent the UK from joining while the ROI still had a clause in its constitution regarding the north.
Russia's problem is that while NATO's invasion of Russia remains completely hypothetical, Russia's invasion of Ukraine is tragically tangible. You can call it a self-fulfilling prophecy and maybe that would be correct, but Putin has in fact justified NATO's position in as concrete terms as possible. This is no longer a questionable call.
Critics who say that NATO shouldn't even contemplate a military response need to ask themselves why this logic should apply to NATO but not Russia. Considering the significance of Ukraine's dependence on Russian oil, it's just not credible to believe that NATO somehow has a leverage over Ukraine than Putin did not, and that military action really was Putin's only option.
It's really hard to see this as anything other an attempt by Putin to establish himself as exactly the kind of military hegemon that the Left quite correctly decry in America. But if one warlord is bad, are two wardlords somehow better?
@@WhaddupDoc Quote you: ". . . negotiations can last for months or even years, calm the fuck down. . . ."
Thanks for reminding me. This had never crossed my mind. If only you had been there to tell this to Putin before he decided to kill all those thousands of children.
But you know how it is. Oblah-di-Oblah-da. Just another woopsie that Putin never thought to negotiate before invading.
"Critics who say that NATO shouldn't even contemplate a military response need to ask themselves rhythms logic should apply to NATO and not Russia"
Because none of us live in fucking Russia? What difference does it make to Putin that you have said you don't want him to invade Ukraine? You live in a country that, on paper at least, is supposed to enact the will of the people within it so saying "the country that represents my will should not go to war" is a POLITICAL and PACIFIST statement. It has meaning. "A country far away is doing things I disapprove of" is not a political statement unless you add on "so the country that represents my will should invade it" which is not pacifist or leftist, it is imperialism.
If you are a leftist, you hate war. You should want to stop imperialist wars. There is only 1 country on earth that you can try to stop from participating in imperialist wars and force to follow pacifist principles and that's the country you hold political power in, probably America. You hold no political power in Russia or the Ukraine, I'm sorry. You can strap up as a volunteer and go get some if you want.
@@jackfrench7176 So nobody who doesn't live in Russia should have an opinion on Russian actions? Like invading another country?
Do you live in Russia? Just doing a consistency check here.
Ukraine is not a member of the NATO. Chapo boys made a valid point, the US won’t do anything because they can’t do anything, same thing as in Syria. It’s not about public debate, let alone how good or morally consistent points someone makes on TH-cam comment section.
This is the world we live in. You can’t just call the cops.
@@robertfreitag687 If only you had been there to tell this to Saddam before he decided to kill all those thousands of [Kurdish] children.
Jesus christ you war pigs are baying for blood. Pray Biden ignores you.