Thanks for the rotation direction in cross-winds tip. I might add: don't fixate on the wheel in front, keep looking up the road. Smooth on power and side to side movements. Don't overlap wheels. When pulling off a single, look over the shoulder where you're going to go and flick the elbow to tell the next rider to pull through.
Two things I'd add. When pulling through on your turn inexperienced riders almost always surge. I like to tell them to keep their cadence the same as the rider in front of them pulls off and to pull through with as little effort as possible. Second, in a single paceline, always save something as you pull off to drop back as the effort to get back on is often really hard for a few seconds and you've also got some reserve power should an attack happen.
Awesome Jeff. Now do the next level. Single pace lines - Allow each rider to take a different amount of time on the front (unlike the double pace line.) This is good and bad. I’ve found counting pedal strokes (one side) a good way to set and vary time on front. Feeling strong? 40-50. Just hanging on? 5 pedal strokes. IMHO…one of the the most painful things in all of racing is catching the back onto the pace line that going full gas. Double pace line - Keep tight. (1) As the lead rider starts to slide over, start sliding up along side. Don’t do what your overhead shots are showing and leave a big gap that you have to get up to and in front of the person pulling off. (2) the person pulling off sets the speed of the entire group. If they hold speed, the forward moving line needs to speed up to overtake. (3) Biggest pace line killer is one you showed well… lead rider pulls through too hard (usually thinking they are helping.) As the rider pull onto slow side, the second slow side rider may need to catch back up their wheel to (a) get into a good draft and (b) keep the slow side gaps closed. - Tip: in a double pace line, when on the front, you are picking the line for both sides. If you see a road hazard that the other line will need to miss, give them room! Expect them to push over into you. - Tip: in a crosswind, you will often be very overlapped (on both sides of the pace line, which is now called an echelon.) There is no way other than rotating off on the up-wind side, as the downwind rider is overlapping you. - Tip: Get an actual speed sensor. Especially on single pace lines - as the lead rider can easily feel like they are working hard as they fatigue and start dropping speed. Watts are good, especially for rolling roads (steady effort, not stead speed). On flat roads, speed is real. - Tip: Timing when and where you move off the front is everything! Rotating off as you hit a rise in the road can end your race. The group WILL surge up the hill. You’ve just spend time pulling AND you have to catch the last wheel AND the group is surging. Pain cave. Staying on the front a little longer during a rise can let you set a pace of the group… till they figure it out and go around you. Just be ready for it. - TIP: Only pro teams with riders to burn can take 1, 2, or 3 minute pulls. Pulling on the front isn’t making you a hero - it is making you vulnerable to attacks. Unless you’re bridging a teammate up or something, then doing equal work and getting off is your highest priority. - Tip: If you DON’T want to get in the pace line and pull through, that’s okay too. Do not block the rider coming backwards who needs to side over to the LAST wheel. Best to ride slightly on the outside edge so as they look back they can easily see the last wheel coming forward. As soon as they start to slide over, move up to the new wheel coming back at you. A good team will protect this spot with a strong and assertive teammate assuring competing teams don’t get into to disrupt, or let FRED get in who doesn’t know what to do and freaks out when they realize they’re about to hit the front.
@Jeff -- Take this theme to Level 3 and Level 4? Level 3: What to do when you're one of the stronger riders in the group? How to drop weaker riders from the group. How to deal with riders who are blocking. How to manipulate the group to push and rotate. What to do when you have a teammate or two in a small group. When to SLOW down to let someone catch or to allow a caught rider to join (you'll want/need them later!) Faking bad leg. Level 4: What to do when you're one of the weakest riders in the group? How to spot when you're getting worked over before it's too late. Dealing with team tactics in a small group. When to dig deep to stay attached at all costs. How and when to practice the above on unsuspecting 'friends' on the local group rides. When NOT to practice the above. Race tactics are not appreciated on a 'fitness' ride. Better to help everyone learn to work together smoothly.
Jeff this was great, don’t be afraid to take your time and explain in detail, you don’t have to rush through these. You seemed out of breath at the end there. Extra view time is great for the channel algorithm.
The time you spend on the front depends on the size of the group. You want to ensure everyone gets a couple of minutes in the draft. So for groups of 10 or more you can just use the momentum of the faster line to roll across immediately whereas in a group of 4 you need to spend about 30 seconds on the front. If you are struggling, let everyone know and stay on the wheel of the last rider in the slow file (do not move across to the fast file). This way you don’t effect the flow of the paceline.
An excellent treatment of an essential group-ride (and race) skill. So many little things need to be done to make it work well, but with practice, it becomes second nature, and a well-oiled double paceline is sublime. Adding just the right amount of power when you reach the front so you don't surge, softpedaling just the right amount when pulling off so the next rider can pass you without surging, calling "clear" when the next rider is almost (but not quite) past you so he can slide over without gapping, reading the wind... It's art. Experienced riders on group rides need to be willing to teach these tricks to the newer riders. Everybody benefits.
Yeah man, I didn't get it until I showed up to my first quicker group ride and we set up a long single pace line. Suddenly, I was holding a 22 mph pace in the draft and felt like a god. Then I hit the front...according to others, I barely give a draft either so it seems that I'm born to surf wheels, kill breaks and get towed to the line
Double pacelines are pretty commonplace on large group rides with experience. I recently did The Coast Ride and it just made for a faster day overall. Can easily cover 130mi with an avg speed of 20-22mph effortlessly. Just be aware of what direction the wind is coming from and communicate it.
Once again your video production is top notch. Great drone work, great commentary, and a perfect explanation of how to ride in pace lines. For the beginners out there, if you ride with a group and you practice the double pace line, you'll find that you can ride much faster for a lower investment of power and the time goes by quickly because you're always paying attention to what's happening. Also, with single pace lines in big groups, you'll tend to find that some people want to pull at 20mph, and others want to pull at 25mph (it's a testosterone thing). It's important that everyone abides by the given pace and you all work together, with the veterans helping the new riders learn what to do. Thanks again Jeff, great job.
Hi Jeff. I think it would be great for us newer racers to have some racing etiquette spelled out for us. (i.e. what are the things that new bike racers do that drive the more experienced racers next to us crazy?)
It seems that I need to pick up some more riders when I go out on the bike next. Great tutorial Jeff. When making a break from the paceline I would imagine that the best time would be just as you slip from the slow lane across to the fast 1.
Random observation, but I love the fact that we are on separate coasts, but both have the same company clothing swag! I worked for ERT for 8 years here in DC (getting several rounds of shirts and winter coats) before leaving and opting for a shorter commute! Having just gotten into bike racing over the last year (in my mid-30s), I am loving the content and the motivation is provides! Good luck on a speedy recovery!
From the perspective of one who's ridden many team pursuits on the track, the riders in your video have too much distance side-to-side & front-to-back. But I realize this was a demo video and overall quite good. Thanks.
Awesome video. Here are two more points. You can literally hear when you are in the draft well due to less air noise. But this may be more for an echelon video. When moving from the second to first position in the fast side, keep your cadence the same. Effort will drastically change, but if you stay in the same gear, you will prevent surging. Also let off a couple rpm after you move into the slow line to gently give the person behind you your draft.
Awesome! How to road cycling 101! And yet you can breakdown each micro aspect into other videos. Like how to balance your effort within the breakaway so you don’t have problems down the road from over cooking it as it pertains to arriving at the final with a clear and lucid mindset. It’s easy to be sharp until it isn’t, then it’s impossible. Love the real time comparison of your watts when you’re rotating through at the front compared to when you’re drifting back in line. There’s a ridiculous amount of info here squeezed into an absurd time frame. My experience is, the magic number is at least five for a single file and six for actual rotation. I’ve seen how and single file works best for even 8 riders with varying abilities, this way you have strong ones pulling longer not harder and then the less powerful riders maintaining the speed with a much shorter 10 second minimum, this way you strictly have only one person taking on the wind at a time. In racing what is the best way to be the coach, cheerleader or organizer of the breakaway? I ask because you don’t wanna come across as being too overbearing upon everyone it’s annoying and yet there’s zero time to waste in the early stages of a breakaway.
i've found that in p/1/2 people not contributing or rotation means they have a strategic reason not to, it's not because they don't know how. in lower categories it might be worth nudging them in the right direction with some encouraging words
Hi Jeff, have you considered comparing power data between single and double pacelines to actually validate that the latter is more efficient for bigger groups in a real world scenario? This experiment would obviously be difficult to run. I only ask because in my experience, I always feel like I am doing less work overall in a single paceline, even in bigger groups. It could just be the lack of experience among those I ride with that makes rotating and keeping a tight draft more difficult in a double paceline, but even if you watch big breakaways in the world tour races, it seems like they always prefer single pacelines. I feel like an organized double paceline is hard to get right (especially in a race) and a disorganized double paceline feels so taxing, almost like you're never out of the wind. Thanks and I hope you're healing up okay!
To add to that, with a long, single line, when you pull off the front, it's a long time until you get out of the wind and get to the rear and you might have to sprint to catch the rear.
My view: Once there are enough riders in the paceline that a continuous rotation gives each rider enough time to recover before s/he hits the front again, a double paceline is the way to go. A single paceline requires each rider to be on the front for longer, and there's not much point in doing that if you have enough strong legs in the group to pull through. If the Pros are doing a single paceline in a big breakaway group, well, they're Pros, and maybe the circumstances at that moment mean it makes more sense for each rider to take a 30-second pull (at more wattage than I can manage for 10 seconds, no doubt). Now, you're exactly right that lack of experience and disorganization don't help a double paceline. You have to have a group where everybody knows what s/he's doing and is strong enough to maintain the advancing line's speed. A group with varying ability will do better with a single paceline (or non-rotating double paceline, where both leaders pull off at the same time), since each rider can tailor the length of his/her pull based on fitness. The non-rotating double is also great for carrying on conversations. All that said, a well-oiled rotating paceline really is poetry in motion and one of the more sublime things one can do on a bike. It's a skill that has to be learned and is very much worth learning, but it requires cohesion in the group that seems less and less common on group rides these days.
I've been part of some exceptional well drill chaingangs, and some of the worst where everyone's acting like it's a race huge surges at the front, pull over and keep the power way to high, chain breaks and.its all over. My club generally has about 30riders out on the Saturday morn chaingang. Brutal sessions
hey jeff, im really struggling in cornering, I always get very inefficient in comes to corners, im not really confident, can you make a video about what to do in entering a corner, and types of corners we encounter in a race specially uturns,
Maintain your aero tuck in the corners. Do an experiment, coast after riding fast and lift your head up some. Do you slow down? You will slow down even more when cornering.
I started getting way quicker in corners after someone told me to stay low on the bike in corners. Keeping your center of mass close to the bike improves the handling in corners. Also, trust your tires! They have a lot more grip than you might expect ;)
You can still rotate in echelons, it's just a bit more tricky navigating it. As for when to use echelon instead of the regular paceline, it's highly dependent on the mood of the group. Invariably, the echelon can only be as wide as the road so in a large pack there will be a number of riders in single file behind the echelon. So if the mood of the group is to drop someone by guttering them; then they'll form an echelon and do a hard and steady pull, where some would be stuck in a single file trying to hang on by spending all their energy or get dropped in hope of catching back up in non-crosswind sections. So, in a regular group rides; you rarely use echelons because firstly you block the whole road and piss off other road users and secondly, you don't want to drop your mates. In races, you keep an eye on the wind direction and if you can gather enough people interested in attacking and splitting the group, you use change of directions in course or wind directions to gutter those behind you.
echelons in a paceline form naturally because you're just positioning yourself in the paceline to get maximum draft. you still rotate as normal. if the wind was stronger on this particular day you would have seen that
Great video! I would love to see a video on the different types of riders. I heard rouleur or puncheur a lot but have no idea what that means. What differenciates theese riders in their physiology and what is their task in a team?
Rouleurs are strong on flat terrain, they are usually bigger, heavier and more powerful riders. They don't win many races, because on flat terrain, the effect of drafting is huge and it is nearly impossible to keep a chasing peleton at bay at high speeds. And then, the sprinters win. So the job of rouleurs is a) to break away for TV time and the occasional breakaway victory,b) to pace on flat terrain to make attacks impossible or to bring back breakaway riders and c) shield their team captains from the wind/bring them in good position before a decisive moment of the race/course. Paris - Roubaix is a race best suited for rouleurs, because it is flat and riding on the cobbles requires a lot of energy and in this race drafting does not have such a huge impact as it does normally, because on the cobbles the riders cannot ride as close together as they usually do. So the sprinters aren't shielded and don't get an easy ride to the finish as it is in normal flat races. Only the strongest sprinters have done well at Paris - Roubaix. Thor Hushovd and Alexander Kristoff, for example. A puncheur is a rider who has a high power to weight ratio, but he can sustain high power only for a few minutes. As a consequence, puncheurs win hilly races, especially with a hill at the finish. Puncheurs usually can climb mountains relatively well, but not as good as climbers, who also have a high power to weight ratio, but can sustain that power for longer periods of time(a 30 minute climb for example). But the climbers usually can't hold on if a puncheur gives it his all for 3 minutes. Julian Alaphilippe is a puncheur, the best at the moment.
The worst part about being between the "b" and "a" groups, fitness-wise is that the B groups around here frequently are terrible at drafting and have no idea how to actually pull off a pace-line.
I can see how this would be tough for everyone to be aware of implement. In my area, it’s almost intentionally instructed to new riders that you always rotate clockwise as the group rides take place in live traffic and we don’t want the slowing riders rotating back on the traffic side of the pace line. Then, people who’ve done this forever jump into a race and they were never taught to act accordingly with the wind and you get people all over the place. I was in a big group ride once with tons of racers and experienced people that was taking up a whole car lane as we rode down the coast, with a really strong left to right wind that would normal cause an echelon, but everyone was still rotating clockwise. There’s definitely merit to this because that was severe wasted energy.
This is excellent! Can you explain the communication process of pace lines more? How can you get others to be organized? When you have a change in direction of wind on a double pace line, what are the steps to take to change the rotation? How do you best communicate this change?
I was the guy doing the common mistake of surging, ha. I went a little hard to overtake before a 90 degree turn as I didn't want to swing wide to make room for the person on my right and possibly go into the oncoming traffic. Any tips you have for keeping a paceline tight going into a 90 degree turn like that? It's a problem I've noticed on races and group rides with tight turns on narrow roads. Thanks again for the video and hope your recovery is going well!
Jeff, what's your take on closing the inevitable gaps in a paceline when they appear due to a surge? I've always preferred to just let the gap open and keep riding steadily until I smoothly close it because it prevents me, and everyone behind me, from having to accelerate hard to surge with it and then brake when the surge ends. On the other hand, it sometimes confuses riders as to why there is a hole in the group and that confusion can also be disruptive. Thoughts?
dont let a gap open in front of you. if the rider in front of you is accelerating hard tell him to stop. if he doesnt and it's still a problem, i would also ride smooth. paceline will likely fall apart if this happens though
Surging is poor paceline riding, and the offender must be beaten with a wet noodle until it stops. Seriously, though, your practice of maintaining a constant speed is kinder to the riders behind you, but like Jeff says, you don't want to let gaps open either. You also sure as hell don't want to brake in the paceline. It's a balancing act, and you have to anticipate your next move. I would do what I can to smooth out the surge and then tell the surging rider, "Hey man, keep a constant speed in the fast line until you pull off. You're surging, and it's creating gaps behind you." Or if the surge happens when that rider gets to the back, lets a gap open as he switches lines, and then sprints to close that gap, what he needs to do is to accelerate before the last rider is all the way past him so the gap doesn't form in the first place. Of course, you need to do that too for the same reason (don't let a gap open, like Jeff says). Bear in mind, too, that some groups are simply incapable of the cooperation it takes to do a smooth paceline.
During a crit you may have crosswind from both sides. You then switch to the other side? Wouldn't this break the "break" someone gets from the slow line?
How long do you take pulls for and you didn't mention if you empty your leg batteries taking the pool in the front when you fall to the back you're going to have trouble latching on when they increase the speed
I'm curious about two things Jeff 1. Is there a certain amount of time that the front rider should stay at the front-like an etiquette thing? 2. When you're dealing with a crosswind, does someone just call out that the rotation will be different or do you all just know?
Is double pacelining considered riding 2 abreast? I know youre technically passing but i know my local group rides dont allow 2 abreast. Or does it only count as 2 abreast if you stay side by side.
What would you suggest if I’m the stronger rider in the group? I see some of the guys in the group can’t stay on the wheel, I always slow down to let them catch on. What can I do to help them increase there speed, power and endurance?
I would assume during a cross wind, and correct me if I am wrong, the passing riders stay close to the riders in the slower lane, correct. What if there is no cross wind? Does one still stay close as they past by or it doesn't matter?
Single paceline. Each rider takes a longer pull, maybe 30 seconds, long enough for the other rider(s) to recover a bit, then flick your elbow on the side the next rider should pull through on and softpedal a couple of strokes to drop back into the draft. Continuous rotation with such a small group means nobody gets a break.
@@NorCalCycling Hang in there... rehab is just like training for a target race, but less fun and with a much slower progression. I hope it moves quickly & you're able to get out there soon.
Know what? With all that knowledge and passion, why not giving your impression on pro bike races? 2 are coming pretty soon : Omloop Het Nieuwsblad and Kuurne-Brussels-Kuurne. That’s the opening of the pro season (yeah I know UAE tour and others happened already). But there are plenty of experience and knowledge to explain and take out of those races that will benefit all cat’s riders!
i can discuss pro races but i can't show the footage without approval or a licensing agreement with those companies who hold the rights. it's very expensive.
@@NorCalCycling I just saw some using VelonCC images (watch last Alex Dowsett’s last video on Unwritten Rules in bunch sprint - he uses VelonCC short extracts). Maybe that helps?
I assume it also means that it's not that worthy to hammer the corners since that could be a recipe for dropping the riders at the back, is it correct?
@@NorCalCycling It makes sense that pulling out huge sprints isn't worth it but benefiting from not going for very high cornering speed wasn't that obvious.
Any recommendations for my knee cap pain . . . I stop my biking since first year of 2022. Then i started biking i reach about 80km on my first ride. The first 40 its good im pacing good then my last 40my knee cap starting to hurt . . . .and recommendation on exercise?
I have had this problem and turned out it was «patella alta» on the left foot. That is the kneecap on the left is higher up on the leg causing pressure on the tendon underneath when moving the leg. Solution is to wear a support that holds the kneecap in place at the start of season until enough milage has been accumulated to endure the load better.
Teaching pacelining to older (e.g. Masters) racers, or patently stupid young guys can be very difficult. Some guys simply never get it. They can't feel the draft pocket, they can't sense their relative location to other riders (and the gaps that are forming) , and how they must vary their positioning as they turn and the relative position of the wind changes. It's extremely rare to be doing a paceline with a group where everyone is competent at what they should be doing. Instead of yelling at guys who are clueless, it's better to work on your own skills as to how to deal with gapping, surging, bad positioning, etc., and turn it into a competitive advantage for yourself.
I don't get the psychology of helping non teammates. Or mire specifically, *when*. At what point do you stop helping each other and go back up trying to beat each other and vice versa
this is a great question but it's complicated and needs a video by itself. but really simply, if nobody helped each other, the breakaway would be doomed from the start.
Short answer to OP question is until the breakaway has a large enough gap on the second group on the road to where they can slow down and play positioning games for the win w/o being caught.
Thanks for the rotation direction in cross-winds tip. I might add: don't fixate on the wheel in front, keep looking up the road. Smooth on power and side to side movements. Don't overlap wheels. When pulling off a single, look over the shoulder where you're going to go and flick the elbow to tell the next rider to pull through.
Noted
Two things I'd add.
When pulling through on your turn inexperienced riders almost always surge. I like to tell them to keep their cadence the same as the rider in front of them pulls off and to pull through with as little effort as possible.
Second, in a single paceline, always save something as you pull off to drop back as the effort to get back on is often really hard for a few seconds and you've also got some reserve power should an attack happen.
Awesome Jeff. Now do the next level.
Single pace lines - Allow each rider to take a different amount of time on the front (unlike the double pace line.) This is good and bad. I’ve found counting pedal strokes (one side) a good way to set and vary time on front. Feeling strong? 40-50. Just hanging on? 5 pedal strokes. IMHO…one of the the most painful things in all of racing is catching the back onto the pace line that going full gas.
Double pace line - Keep tight. (1) As the lead rider starts to slide over, start sliding up along side. Don’t do what your overhead shots are showing and leave a big gap that you have to get up to and in front of the person pulling off. (2) the person pulling off sets the speed of the entire group. If they hold speed, the forward moving line needs to speed up to overtake. (3) Biggest pace line killer is one you showed well… lead rider pulls through too hard (usually thinking they are helping.) As the rider pull onto slow side, the second slow side rider may need to catch back up their wheel to (a) get into a good draft and (b) keep the slow side gaps closed.
- Tip: in a double pace line, when on the front, you are picking the line for both sides. If you see a road hazard that the other line will need to miss, give them room! Expect them to push over into you.
- Tip: in a crosswind, you will often be very overlapped (on both sides of the pace line, which is now called an echelon.) There is no way other than rotating off on the up-wind side, as the downwind rider is overlapping you.
- Tip: Get an actual speed sensor. Especially on single pace lines - as the lead rider can easily feel like they are working hard as they fatigue and start dropping speed. Watts are good, especially for rolling roads (steady effort, not stead speed). On flat roads, speed is real.
- Tip: Timing when and where you move off the front is everything! Rotating off as you hit a rise in the road can end your race. The group WILL surge up the hill. You’ve just spend time pulling AND you have to catch the last wheel AND the group is surging. Pain cave. Staying on the front a little longer during a rise can let you set a pace of the group… till they figure it out and go around you. Just be ready for it.
- TIP: Only pro teams with riders to burn can take 1, 2, or 3 minute pulls. Pulling on the front isn’t making you a hero - it is making you vulnerable to attacks. Unless you’re bridging a teammate up or something, then doing equal work and getting off is your highest priority.
- Tip: If you DON’T want to get in the pace line and pull through, that’s okay too. Do not block the rider coming backwards who needs to side over to the LAST wheel. Best to ride slightly on the outside edge so as they look back they can easily see the last wheel coming forward. As soon as they start to slide over, move up to the new wheel coming back at you. A good team will protect this spot with a strong and assertive teammate assuring competing teams don’t get into to disrupt, or let FRED get in who doesn’t know what to do and freaks out when they realize they’re about to hit the front.
@Jeff -- Take this theme to Level 3 and Level 4?
Level 3: What to do when you're one of the stronger riders in the group?
How to drop weaker riders from the group. How to deal with riders who are blocking. How to manipulate the group to push and rotate. What to do when you have a teammate or two in a small group. When to SLOW down to let someone catch or to allow a caught rider to join (you'll want/need them later!) Faking bad leg.
Level 4: What to do when you're one of the weakest riders in the group?
How to spot when you're getting worked over before it's too late. Dealing with team tactics in a small group. When to dig deep to stay attached at all costs.
How and when to practice the above on unsuspecting 'friends' on the local group rides.
When NOT to practice the above. Race tactics are not appreciated on a 'fitness' ride. Better to help everyone learn to work together smoothly.
I did a double paceline on a group ride before. It was magical! We worked well and no one really surged or gapped.
Jeff this was great, don’t be afraid to take your time and explain in detail, you don’t have to rush through these. You seemed out of breath at the end there. Extra view time is great for the channel algorithm.
Do a collab with Jesse Coyle here in Australia. Like a race analysis or something.
The time you spend on the front depends on the size of the group. You want to ensure everyone gets a couple of minutes in the draft. So for groups of 10 or more you can just use the momentum of the faster line to roll across immediately whereas in a group of 4 you need to spend about 30 seconds on the front.
If you are struggling, let everyone know and stay on the wheel of the last rider in the slow file (do not move across to the fast file). This way you don’t effect the flow of the paceline.
An excellent treatment of an essential group-ride (and race) skill. So many little things need to be done to make it work well, but with practice, it becomes second nature, and a well-oiled double paceline is sublime. Adding just the right amount of power when you reach the front so you don't surge, softpedaling just the right amount when pulling off so the next rider can pass you without surging, calling "clear" when the next rider is almost (but not quite) past you so he can slide over without gapping, reading the wind... It's art. Experienced riders on group rides need to be willing to teach these tricks to the newer riders. Everybody benefits.
Yeah man, I didn't get it until I showed up to my first quicker group ride and we set up a long single pace line. Suddenly, I was holding a 22 mph pace in the draft and felt like a god. Then I hit the front...according to others, I barely give a draft either so it seems that I'm born to surf wheels, kill breaks and get towed to the line
Love the length of the video. Concise and to the point. Can’t wait for more. We’ll done
Very nice video and explanation, one of the big advantage of a club ride/group ride is to practice the paceline during the winter.
Double pacelines are pretty commonplace on large group rides with experience. I recently did The Coast Ride and it just made for a faster day overall. Can easily cover 130mi with an avg speed of 20-22mph effortlessly. Just be aware of what direction the wind is coming from and communicate it.
Once again your video production is top notch. Great drone work, great commentary, and a perfect explanation of how to ride in pace lines. For the beginners out there, if you ride with a group and you practice the double pace line, you'll find that you can ride much faster for a lower investment of power and the time goes by quickly because you're always paying attention to what's happening. Also, with single pace lines in big groups, you'll tend to find that some people want to pull at 20mph, and others want to pull at 25mph (it's a testosterone thing). It's important that everyone abides by the given pace and you all work together, with the veterans helping the new riders learn what to do. Thanks again Jeff, great job.
Hi Jeff. I think it would be great for us newer racers to have some racing etiquette spelled out for us. (i.e. what are the things that new bike racers do that drive the more experienced racers next to us crazy?)
It seems that I need to pick up some more riders when I go out on the bike next. Great tutorial Jeff.
When making a break from the paceline I would imagine that the best time would be just as you slip from the slow lane across to the fast 1.
Random observation, but I love the fact that we are on separate coasts, but both have the same company clothing swag! I worked for ERT for 8 years here in DC (getting several rounds of shirts and winter coats) before leaving and opting for a shorter commute! Having just gotten into bike racing over the last year (in my mid-30s), I am loving the content and the motivation is provides! Good luck on a speedy recovery!
Wow, small company, quite a coincidence
From the perspective of one who's ridden many team pursuits on the track, the riders in your video have too much distance side-to-side & front-to-back. But I realize this was a demo video and overall quite good. Thanks.
Awesome video. Here are two more points. You can literally hear when you are in the draft well due to less air noise. But this may be more for an echelon video. When moving from the second to first position in the fast side, keep your cadence the same. Effort will drastically change, but if you stay in the same gear, you will prevent surging. Also let off a couple rpm after you move into the slow line to gently give the person behind you your draft.
Awesome!
How to road cycling 101! And yet you can breakdown each micro aspect into other videos.
Like how to balance your effort within the breakaway so you don’t have problems down the road from over cooking it as it pertains to arriving at the final with a clear and lucid mindset.
It’s easy to be sharp until it isn’t, then it’s impossible.
Love the real time comparison of your watts when you’re rotating through at the front compared to when you’re drifting back in line.
There’s a ridiculous amount of info here squeezed into an absurd time frame.
My experience is, the magic number is at least five for a single file and six for actual rotation.
I’ve seen how and single file works best for even 8 riders with varying abilities, this way you have strong ones pulling longer not harder and then the less powerful riders maintaining the speed with a much shorter 10 second minimum, this way you strictly have only one person taking on the wind at a time.
In racing what is the best way to be the coach, cheerleader or organizer of the breakaway?
I ask because you don’t wanna come across as being too overbearing upon everyone it’s annoying and yet there’s zero time to waste in the early stages of a breakaway.
i've found that in p/1/2 people not contributing or rotation means they have a strategic reason not to, it's not because they don't know how. in lower categories it might be worth nudging them in the right direction with some encouraging words
Hi Jeff, have you considered comparing power data between single and double pacelines to actually validate that the latter is more efficient for bigger groups in a real world scenario? This experiment would obviously be difficult to run. I only ask because in my experience, I always feel like I am doing less work overall in a single paceline, even in bigger groups. It could just be the lack of experience among those I ride with that makes rotating and keeping a tight draft more difficult in a double paceline, but even if you watch big breakaways in the world tour races, it seems like they always prefer single pacelines. I feel like an organized double paceline is hard to get right (especially in a race) and a disorganized double paceline feels so taxing, almost like you're never out of the wind. Thanks and I hope you're healing up okay!
if done properly, double is more efficient, more time spent in the draft
To add to that, with a long, single line, when you pull off the front, it's a long time until you get out of the wind and get to the rear and you might have to sprint to catch the rear.
My view: Once there are enough riders in the paceline that a continuous rotation gives each rider enough time to recover before s/he hits the front again, a double paceline is the way to go. A single paceline requires each rider to be on the front for longer, and there's not much point in doing that if you have enough strong legs in the group to pull through. If the Pros are doing a single paceline in a big breakaway group, well, they're Pros, and maybe the circumstances at that moment mean it makes more sense for each rider to take a 30-second pull (at more wattage than I can manage for 10 seconds, no doubt).
Now, you're exactly right that lack of experience and disorganization don't help a double paceline. You have to have a group where everybody knows what s/he's doing and is strong enough to maintain the advancing line's speed. A group with varying ability will do better with a single paceline (or non-rotating double paceline, where both leaders pull off at the same time), since each rider can tailor the length of his/her pull based on fitness. The non-rotating double is also great for carrying on conversations.
All that said, a well-oiled rotating paceline really is poetry in motion and one of the more sublime things one can do on a bike. It's a skill that has to be learned and is very much worth learning, but it requires cohesion in the group that seems less and less common on group rides these days.
I've been part of some exceptional well drill chaingangs, and some of the worst where everyone's acting like it's a race huge surges at the front, pull over and keep the power way to high, chain breaks and.its all over. My club generally has about 30riders out on the Saturday morn chaingang. Brutal sessions
hey jeff, im really struggling in cornering, I always get very inefficient in comes to corners, im not really confident, can you make a video about what to do in entering a corner, and types of corners we encounter in a race specially uturns,
Maintain your aero tuck in the corners.
Do an experiment, coast after riding fast and lift your head up some. Do you slow down?
You will slow down even more when cornering.
I started getting way quicker in corners after someone told me to stay low on the bike in corners. Keeping your center of mass close to the bike improves the handling in corners. Also, trust your tires! They have a lot more grip than you might expect ;)
I made a video about how to corner better, check my channel
this video on countersteering really helped me, even though it's from a motorcycle the concept is the same th-cam.com/video/ljywO-B_yew/w-d-xo.html
awesome video. one the best explanation i´ve seen so far
For cross winds, when should you start echelons instead of just reversing the pace line rotation?
You can still rotate in echelons, it's just a bit more tricky navigating it.
As for when to use echelon instead of the regular paceline, it's highly dependent on the mood of the group. Invariably, the echelon can only be as wide as the road so in a large pack there will be a number of riders in single file behind the echelon. So if the mood of the group is to drop someone by guttering them; then they'll form an echelon and do a hard and steady pull, where some would be stuck in a single file trying to hang on by spending all their energy or get dropped in hope of catching back up in non-crosswind sections.
So, in a regular group rides; you rarely use echelons because firstly you block the whole road and piss off other road users and secondly, you don't want to drop your mates.
In races, you keep an eye on the wind direction and if you can gather enough people interested in attacking and splitting the group, you use change of directions in course or wind directions to gutter those behind you.
echelons in a paceline form naturally because you're just positioning yourself in the paceline to get maximum draft. you still rotate as normal. if the wind was stronger on this particular day you would have seen that
Great video! I would love to see a video on the different types of riders. I heard rouleur or puncheur a lot but have no idea what that means. What differenciates theese riders in their physiology and what is their task in a team?
Rouleurs are strong on flat terrain, they are usually bigger, heavier and more powerful riders. They don't win many races, because on flat terrain, the effect of drafting is huge and it is nearly impossible to keep a chasing peleton at bay at high speeds. And then, the sprinters win.
So the job of rouleurs is a) to break away for TV time and the occasional breakaway victory,b) to pace on flat terrain to make attacks impossible or to bring back breakaway riders and c) shield their team captains from the wind/bring them in good position before a decisive moment of the race/course.
Paris - Roubaix is a race best suited for rouleurs, because it is flat and riding on the cobbles requires a lot of energy and in this race drafting does not have such a huge impact as it does normally, because on the cobbles the riders cannot ride as close together as they usually do. So the sprinters aren't shielded and don't get an easy ride to the finish as it is in normal flat races. Only the strongest sprinters have done well at Paris - Roubaix. Thor Hushovd and Alexander Kristoff, for example.
A puncheur is a rider who has a high power to weight ratio, but he can sustain high power only for a few minutes. As a consequence, puncheurs win hilly races, especially with a hill at the finish. Puncheurs usually can climb mountains relatively well, but not as good as climbers, who also have a high power to weight ratio, but can sustain that power for longer periods of time(a 30 minute climb for example). But the climbers usually can't hold on if a puncheur gives it his all for 3 minutes. Julian Alaphilippe is a puncheur, the best at the moment.
Thanks for the video, very informative!
The worst part about being between the "b" and "a" groups, fitness-wise is that the B groups around here frequently are terrible at drafting and have no idea how to actually pull off a pace-line.
I can see how this would be tough for everyone to be aware of implement.
In my area, it’s almost intentionally instructed to new riders that you always rotate clockwise as the group rides take place in live traffic and we don’t want the slowing riders rotating back on the traffic side of the pace line.
Then, people who’ve done this forever jump into a race and they were never taught to act accordingly with the wind and you get people all over the place.
I was in a big group ride once with tons of racers and experienced people that was taking up a whole car lane as we rode down the coast, with a really strong left to right wind that would normal cause an echelon, but everyone was still rotating clockwise.
There’s definitely merit to this because that was severe wasted energy.
This is excellent!
Can you explain the communication process of pace lines more? How can you get others to be organized?
When you have a change in direction of wind on a double pace line, what are the steps to take to change the rotation? How do you best communicate this change?
For UK viewers (and maybe other countries) double paceline = chaingang..... :)
I was the guy doing the common mistake of surging, ha. I went a little hard to overtake before a 90 degree turn as I didn't want to swing wide to make room for the person on my right and possibly go into the oncoming traffic. Any tips you have for keeping a paceline tight going into a 90 degree turn like that?
It's a problem I've noticed on races and group rides with tight turns on narrow roads. Thanks again for the video and hope your recovery is going well!
don't surge, but leave room for the person next to you in the corner. takes practice.
Jeff, what's your take on closing the inevitable gaps in a paceline when they appear due to a surge? I've always preferred to just let the gap open and keep riding steadily until I smoothly close it because it prevents me, and everyone behind me, from having to accelerate hard to surge with it and then brake when the surge ends. On the other hand, it sometimes confuses riders as to why there is a hole in the group and that confusion can also be disruptive. Thoughts?
dont let a gap open in front of you. if the rider in front of you is accelerating hard tell him to stop. if he doesnt and it's still a problem, i would also ride smooth. paceline will likely fall apart if this happens though
Surging is poor paceline riding, and the offender must be beaten with a wet noodle until it stops. Seriously, though, your practice of maintaining a constant speed is kinder to the riders behind you, but like Jeff says, you don't want to let gaps open either. You also sure as hell don't want to brake in the paceline. It's a balancing act, and you have to anticipate your next move.
I would do what I can to smooth out the surge and then tell the surging rider, "Hey man, keep a constant speed in the fast line until you pull off. You're surging, and it's creating gaps behind you." Or if the surge happens when that rider gets to the back, lets a gap open as he switches lines, and then sprints to close that gap, what he needs to do is to accelerate before the last rider is all the way past him so the gap doesn't form in the first place. Of course, you need to do that too for the same reason (don't let a gap open, like Jeff says).
Bear in mind, too, that some groups are simply incapable of the cooperation it takes to do a smooth paceline.
these drone shots are money
Don't we wish group ride leaders enforced this (most don't know about it). Pure magic when it happens
Awesome content. Please keep the tactics/strategy sessions coming! Masterclass?
During a crit you may have crosswind from both sides. You then switch to the other side? Wouldn't this break the "break" someone gets from the slow line?
switch the direction you rotate on either side of the course to match the wind
I once did a solo high frequency pace of line. Others may claim I spun my bike and crashed ;)
Great topic
that looks great but not easy. how long do you normally rotate? 10 minutes? 1 hour?
WORD. Great video!!
One issue I see in a casual group ride while pace lining is even is the same strength, not everyone has a power meter or bike computer.
What go pro mounts do you prefer when racing?
How long do you take pulls for and you didn't mention if you empty your leg batteries taking the pool in the front when you fall to the back you're going to have trouble latching on when they increase the speed
Azo!! Great vid.
I'm curious about two things Jeff
1. Is there a certain amount of time that the front rider should stay at the front-like an etiquette thing?
2. When you're dealing with a crosswind, does someone just call out that the rotation will be different or do you all just know?
1. Once you clear the front wheel of the rider you're passing 2. Just know
So Jeff, when are you building up a new Race Bike?
soon
Is double pacelining considered riding 2 abreast? I know youre technically passing but i know my local group rides dont allow 2 abreast. Or does it only count as 2 abreast if you stay side by side.
Where’d you get your vest?! I want one
Very interesting. Greetings from Greece...
What would you suggest if I’m the stronger rider in the group? I see some of the guys in the group can’t stay on the wheel, I always slow down to let them catch on. What can I do to help them increase there speed, power and endurance?
I would assume during a cross wind, and correct me if I am wrong, the passing riders stay close to the riders in the slower lane, correct. What if there is no cross wind? Does one still stay close as they past by or it doesn't matter?
always stay close to the riders in the slow lane, if no crosswind rotation direction doesn't really matter
Had a quick question, how tall are you and what is your frame size of choice?
perhaps talk about smaller groups of say 2-3 riders. Esp "off the front". How is the drafting strategy different than a full-up paceline.
Single paceline. Each rider takes a longer pull, maybe 30 seconds, long enough for the other rider(s) to recover a bit, then flick your elbow on the side the next rider should pull through on and softpedal a couple of strokes to drop back into the draft. Continuous rotation with such a small group means nobody gets a break.
good video
its just the Belgian tourniquet right
Sweet
Did I see both hands moving freely??!!! How is your rehab progressing?
Going well. Also this was recorded before the crash 😂
@@NorCalCycling Hang in there... rehab is just like training for a target race, but less fun and with a much slower progression. I hope it moves quickly & you're able to get out there soon.
Know what? With all that knowledge and passion, why not giving your impression on pro bike races? 2 are coming pretty soon : Omloop Het Nieuwsblad and Kuurne-Brussels-Kuurne. That’s the opening of the pro season (yeah I know UAE tour and others happened already).
But there are plenty of experience and knowledge to explain and take out of those races that will benefit all cat’s riders!
i can discuss pro races but i can't show the footage without approval or a licensing agreement with those companies who hold the rights. it's very expensive.
@@NorCalCycling I just saw some using VelonCC images (watch last Alex Dowsett’s last video on Unwritten Rules in bunch sprint - he uses VelonCC short extracts). Maybe that helps?
I assume it also means that it's not that worthy to hammer the corners since that could be a recipe for dropping the riders at the back, is it correct?
Don't hammer anywhere in a paceline
@@NorCalCycling It makes sense that pulling out huge sprints isn't worth it but benefiting from not going for very high cornering speed wasn't that obvious.
Any recommendations for my knee cap pain . . . I stop my biking since first year of 2022. Then i started biking i reach about 80km on my first ride. The first 40 its good im pacing good then my last 40my knee cap starting to hurt . . . .and recommendation on exercise?
Get a bike fit or refit
@@mattk8810 im carrying a heavy bag to btw i forgot to add that
I have had this problem and turned out it was «patella alta» on the left foot. That is the kneecap on the left is higher up on the leg causing pressure on the tendon underneath when moving the leg. Solution is to wear a support that holds the kneecap in place at the start of season until enough milage has been accumulated to endure the load better.
a noob question here, how long do you stay in the front before you get back into the draft?
as soon as you pass the rider and/or hear them say 'clear' you rotate
@@NorCalCycling Thanks for the reply and have a speedy recovery! BTW, do you see yourself race Sea otter this year?
what wld u say abt youth racing which im going to say breakaway-wise is an absolute shambles sprinting all over the place
👋 Hello!
Teaching pacelining to older (e.g. Masters) racers, or patently stupid young guys can be very difficult. Some guys simply never get it. They can't feel the draft pocket, they can't sense their relative location to other riders (and the gaps that are forming) , and how they must vary their positioning as they turn and the relative position of the wind changes. It's extremely rare to be doing a paceline with a group where everyone is competent at what they should be doing. Instead of yelling at guys who are clueless, it's better to work on your own skills as to how to deal with gapping, surging, bad positioning, etc., and turn it into a competitive advantage for yourself.
No sling? 8-)
I don't get the psychology of helping non teammates. Or mire specifically, *when*. At what point do you stop helping each other and go back up trying to beat each other and vice versa
this is a great question but it's complicated and needs a video by itself. but really simply, if nobody helped each other, the breakaway would be doomed from the start.
That's why bike racing is great, it's like playing chess while your heart rate is red lining and you're cross eyed from exertion.
Short answer to OP question is until the breakaway has a large enough gap on the second group on the road to where they can slow down and play positioning games for the win w/o being caught.
POV: Your a velodrome rider lol
how about always hiding behind someone 😀