Are Empire State Melee Infantry Any Good? - Unit Focus

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  • เผยแพร่เมื่อ 16 พ.ย. 2024
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ความคิดเห็น • 69

  • @G1ingy
    @G1ingy 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +25

    I know a lot in the fanbase think Empire infantries are weak just because they aren't as good as Chosen and Black Orcs. All I can tell them is...what did you expect? The main appeal of the Empire is that they're everyday humans like you and me having to rely on their diversity of strategies and technologies to sometimes pull a win. Their infantries are very middle road, stronger than clan rats but weaker than Bleakswords. Balance wise the Empire is pretty perfect and there's no situation where you can't handle outside of being outplayed by a better player.

    • @OffToBattle
      @OffToBattle  9 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

      This is all true and hey, why not, I'll pin your comment :) They're good enough, and as others pointed out, add lords/ heroes/ and all of a sudden you're cooking with gas. A Steam Tank and you're cooking with steam.

    • @4dealliance598
      @4dealliance598 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +7

      I think a lot of the hate for empire infantry comes from the need for additional buildings, whereas for most other races you can get the same or better without extra buildings required. They feel that, because of that extra investment, they should get a bit more bang for their buck. But, then again, that's what the guns are for.

    • @OffToBattle
      @OffToBattle  9 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      @@4dealliance598 Well if it's still the same, the forge stuff helps with cavalry as well... definitely smacks of first generation design. But you're right, that's what the guns are for.

    • @alexismartin8473
      @alexismartin8473 9 หลายเดือนก่อน

      What are you saying, Greatsword empire kill Black Orc without Waaag in 1vs1

    • @Tarico_
      @Tarico_ 9 หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@4dealliance598I never considered that part, though it is kinda ridiculous that you need to invest 3k into a blacksmith and then upgrade the barracks to get some of the worst halberds in the game, with no shields or armor while being kinda pricey

  • @enricocappi3171
    @enricocappi3171 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +7

    - Basic spears: i mean, they cost nothing and can be recruited everywhere.
    - Spears+shield: your standard battle line when you are in doubt about what to use.
    - Swordsmen: eeeeeeeh...they are in a strange position...the main thing they provide is melee killing power (the defence is still not bad, but not great), the problem is that they end up usually against other infantry units of the same category wich just punch or tank harder. But they do good against zombie+skelly tide of kemmler/vlad, norscan marauders or similar, so sometimes i keep a couple for the early game. Bonus if i go wth gelt just because i like see them go to like 50-60 armor and and 50/50 ma/md. But that's me being funny dumb.
    - Greatswords: it usually just come down to economic efficency...i mean, if you are short on money, you rather invest in ranged firepower than melee prowess with the empire. But still, they are far from bad for me, the problem is that people usually compare them in an anti-armor vs anti-armor infantry fight, then yes, they perform bad, but that's not they're job, they're job is to clean the field from chaff and go face to face with sword&board infantry, like basic chaos warriors and the like. Now, am i high on Copium because they are my favourite looking empire unit from back when i played tabletop? YES. YES I AM.

    • @OffToBattle
      @OffToBattle  9 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

      Nothing wrong with that ^^ And it's a surprisingly fat bonus vs. infantry so it's not like they're slacking off. They just benefit a ton from softening the enemy up. That's the whole faction design - nothing is meant to be in isolation, not even the Emperor himself. (I'll do a video on him too... since I flock to the parts people gripe about the most, haha...

  • @TheGreatDanish
    @TheGreatDanish 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +10

    My thought process is simple: if I'm against chaos, lizards, counts or greenskins, I'm using halberds. If I'm against anything with descent ranged, spears with shields. Over all, I don't find swords all that useful when I can just use spears or halberds that will hold longer and use my superior ranged fire or cavalry to grind them down.

    • @OffToBattle
      @OffToBattle  9 หลายเดือนก่อน

      Yeah, that's a view I gave a heavy nod to because it's right in a lot of situations, and swords? They're fine, but since you can't know in advance what every enemy will bring, it'll feel like a risk. I still like bringing a few, but spears/ halberds are non-negotiable.

    • @TheGreatDanish
      @TheGreatDanish 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

      @OffToBattle yeah. There are situations where swords are applicable, like empire mirrors, but over all, swords are completely outmatched by most infantry in the game, so they are definitely in the counter pick territory.
      Like I would never in a million years bring them against dwarves. Sure spears are going to kill even less, but at least they will stay just a few volleys, or a charge or two longer.

    • @OffToBattle
      @OffToBattle  9 หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@TheGreatDanish Definitely would prefer to lean on my missiles/ artillery against Dwarfs if that's an option.

    • @Tarico_
      @Tarico_ 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      The only problem is fighting tier 1 HE spears with like 50-some defense, more melee attack, and better armor and leadership while being the same price. Also their other spearmen who are also better than empire spears can also outrange every single non-artillery ranged unit in the entire empire roster (lothern seaguard)

    • @Tarico_
      @Tarico_ 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      That’s not even considering the fact that high elves have ranged that, at their worst, will also outshoot everything that isn’t artillery, but that’s okay cuz they also have artillery to fix that :)

  • @sherkhead9638
    @sherkhead9638 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +9

    Couldn’t stand greatswords for the longest then I realized that I’d you put a war priest captain and lord and maybe a steam tank let the infantry charge in then send mine to charge the enemy I win much more often then any of the elite “Elite” infantry

    • @OffToBattle
      @OffToBattle  9 หลายเดือนก่อน +3

      Yes, this. You can't literally embed a hero in a squad in this game, but you can get pretty close and it greatly improves the results.

  • @RisingChaosWriting
    @RisingChaosWriting 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    I love the swordsmen, I know they arent great, not specialised. I just love them. The lads holding the line for country and home

    • @MAGS-ik5uj
      @MAGS-ik5uj 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      I’m a spearmen guy more than swordsmen personally. Partly due to spears holding longer in battle but also for the animations in combat. I’m with you though mate, love just watching rows of floppy hat brothas just screaming and slashing

  • @mikemandalorian9226
    @mikemandalorian9226 4 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    I always just use 2 elite greatswords + 4 hallberds in my main stack, the rest is guns, arty and heroes (maybe one or Two anti-large cavalry to cover range infantry) and it works great against everything.

    • @OffToBattle
      @OffToBattle  4 หลายเดือนก่อน

      Sounds like a pretty good standard operating procedure.

  • @mateuszk3812
    @mateuszk3812 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +6

    I think that Empire could use some Warrior Saints SFO submod / Full Plate (aka armored) variants / Road Watch Radious unit types. Also some more egineering weapons units would be great (duck feet pistols as a sidegrade for militia / revolving handguns, mancatcher armed units with huge buffs when fighting on walls/high ground etc).
    Hell, CA could even give them a version of battle-vagon / chained together carts as a possibile deployable field fortifications that could be used outside of normal unit cap.
    I did catch myselve just seeing most of my meele roster as glorified meatshields (when playing without unit mods), at least untill I get the Greatswords /heavily buffed Halberders

    • @OffToBattle
      @OffToBattle  9 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

      Well, they're glorified meatshields regardless, but they end up doing a surprising amount of work for you if you give them some love. It's still never going to be a dominant melee faction, that'd break the game, but there's absolutely room for more with future DLC. I'll keep an eye open if they indicate what they're cooking up...

    • @furiousdefiler7734
      @furiousdefiler7734 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      I agree. The other day I thought that a unit of warrior priests would be really great (maybe call them monks or something like that). Make them a sturdy high armor unit but also give it encourage. To prevent spamming them I think a unit cap like the dread saurian would be good but instead of +1 at tier 5 make it go from +1 to +3 as you build up the worship building. Also an ror with dual hammers and a bound warrior priest ability would be awesome.

    • @OffToBattle
      @OffToBattle  9 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      @@furiousdefiler7734 Sounds like the Warhammer spirit burns strong in you. These are the sorts of things the companies should consider moving forward. I mean, some ideas get thrown out in the process but they should still be considered!

    • @furiousdefiler7734
      @furiousdefiler7734 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      @@OffToBattle Absolutely. Thankfully the mod community is very strong. I am cautiously optimistic about the soc update. If that is good then hopefully thrones of decay will be worth the price. Empire Dwarves and Nurgle are three of my favorite races.

    • @OffToBattle
      @OffToBattle  9 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      @@furiousdefiler7734 Yeah, that's why I'm returning to all of them, I want to raise awareness and also, help people who want to play them here and now that it's not hopeless either. Yes they can get better but the doom and gloom gets exaggerated at times ^^

  • @danpitzer765
    @danpitzer765 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    I find that Spearmen with Shields are the ideal for my playstyle. They will hold. They'll hold better than any other infantry thanks to that beefy melee defence and missile block.
    And if there's something too armored for them...well, that's what guns are for.

    • @OffToBattle
      @OffToBattle  9 หลายเดือนก่อน

      There's nothing at all wrong with that view. I rely on them heavily and sometimes in the past, not heavily enough and I paid for it, but of course you do need a proper critical mass of ranged.

    • @danpitzer765
      @danpitzer765 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

      @@OffToBattle Absolutely. I, personally, don't consider it an empire army without, at the worst, a 1-1 ratio of crossbows/handguns to spears. I'm willing to trim the spears down a bit (because Warrior Priests and Captains can fill in) but there needs to be lots of dakka, because humans are squishy in the face of orcs and vampires and dragons and trolls. But high speed iron and lead will make up for that.

    • @OffToBattle
      @OffToBattle  9 หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@danpitzer765 I'm glad such a style has such a strong place in this game and the tabletop.

  • @daniellison9182
    @daniellison9182 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    I think it would be awesome to have some dismounyed knights as a true elite infantry for both empire and bretonia.But to balance it they come with unit limits or a unit pool

    • @OffToBattle
      @OffToBattle  9 หลายเดือนก่อน

      Plenty of other games do that kind of trick I think. Yes, it'd be very interesting.

    • @Wanderer-nw2so
      @Wanderer-nw2so 3 หลายเดือนก่อน

      The imperial foot exists so I think they could definitely add them I mean, they already have the models and they could just use the swordsmen animations. And just make them like the ironsides in which they are the improved variant of swordsman with higher armor, health, and leadership and perhaps even having a silver shield. but with a lower model count so it isn't a straight upgrade.

  • @TheKarofaar
    @TheKarofaar 5 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    I normally minmax armies.
    I only use 6 +3 army points in buff stats.
    So when an army use regular infantry (early heroes) i never choose the great swords. They will probably loose against a higly buffed "halles".
    When i use great swords, i never touch the regulars.
    But the point is when you start from altdorf against the evil druchii, you start with your pretty stak and greatswords. But when you are fighting morathi and malekith every single turn in the wastelands...your "karl staks" usually consists in 19 lancer without shield and a bunch of witch hunters and floating fire mages from albion sniping hydras.
    4 turns to recruit anything when morathi have hydra doomstaks each turn does not have my consent.

    • @OffToBattle
      @OffToBattle  5 หลายเดือนก่อน

      Yes recruit times seem to have improved with certain units from recent changes (and that's much appreciated), but 4 turn recruitment is a big problem unless it's a very safe forward area.

  • @MAGS-ik5uj
    @MAGS-ik5uj 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    I almost left a comment on another video of yours to ask if you would do a unit focus series for the empire the same way you did for nurgle but decided against this for fear of being pushy. Glad I was a little patient, I get to watch another great video that softly dunks on some of my favorite units in game:D You can’t make a video about empire melee infantry without softly dunking on them, otherwise you’re lying to the audience

    • @OffToBattle
      @OffToBattle  9 หลายเดือนก่อน

      Yeah, I want people to know the good and the bad and besides, bad is relative. People have mentioned the workarounds to their not being the best, but that's a faction thing, Empire would be too good if it had the best melee on top of all its great ranged and magic. I'm trying to fill other holes left by my gunpowder and artillery specific binges... give people a good overall look at Empire and I guess Dwarfs.

  • @emanuelalfred1565
    @emanuelalfred1565 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    I’ve found swordsmen pair really well with a beast wizard. Keep them close to the beast wizard and drop those buffs… they’ll do amazing things.
    I like to roll with mixed armies and found that having swordsmen makes me tolerate major settlement battles better in the early game. Doesn’t feel as slow and tedious since they can actually kill stuff way faster when combined with archers or crossbows in the early game.
    I try avoiding cheesy tactics for my own immersion reasons. So I’m not sending my general into a settlement while mortars or archers shower missiles on the horde surrounding him. No shade to the people who like that style. To each his own and do what feels fun for you.

    • @OffToBattle
      @OffToBattle  6 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      Well said all around, and I have seen both Beast Magic doing well with such units, and making the siege battles a little less terrible early game!

  • @Orendiz
    @Orendiz 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    I hope in the empire update dlc CA will rework the stats for the empire state troops a bit so that empire spearmen with shields don't just make the rest of the roster obselite with the exeption of halberds and greatswords.
    Jk they will add empire halberds with shields as a dlc unit and add 5 more single entities/heroes or a cav unit and call it a day when it comes to the roster.

    • @OffToBattle
      @OffToBattle  9 หลายเดือนก่อน

      We shall see..!

    • @spanner5940
      @spanner5940 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      Well you were wrong. As for empire infantry post thrones, they are... alright. Elector count troops are just straight upgrades for Franz and null ironside work as a wonderful front line for elspeth's faction. That leaves wulfhart which no one plays, then volkmar and gelt. Gelt uses tons of wizards so state troops are pretty useful in keeping an enemy in place, but shouldn't be relied on. Volkmar gets the books of nagash which means boosted stats for state troops, as such they hold their own with anything in their tier (swordsmen beat marauders, greatswords beat spurs etc). In conclusion they are somewhat useful but I'd recommend 9/10 times using null ironsides instead

    • @OffToBattle
      @OffToBattle  6 หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@spanner5940 Thanks for the interesting thoughts. Ironsides do feel solid to me, just a matter of complimenting their strengths and all that.

  • @MrSquigglies
    @MrSquigglies 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    I will usually min/max with shielded spears handguns huntsmen and 1 or 2 carroburg greatswords for infantry with bordermen/grenade outriders and an artillery corps tailored for the opponent I expect to fight but usually hellstorms or canon.

    • @OffToBattle
      @OffToBattle  9 หลายเดือนก่อน

      Sounds like a great rule of thumb for a wide range of opponents.

    • @MrSquigglies
      @MrSquigglies 9 หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@OffToBattle it's the best for minimum clicks to victory in my experience.

  • @MySuperPowerIsITouchGrass
    @MySuperPowerIsITouchGrass 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    Keep in mind, to balance out their mid performance these troops are cheap. Your basic Spearmen are not much more expensive then Cathay peasants and have better stats. Also cheaper than most Kislev infantry and more specialized so they often perform overall better.
    They are not true chaff like skaven slaves or goblins but you're not hurting much if any of these guys route off either.

    • @OffToBattle
      @OffToBattle  9 หลายเดือนก่อน

      They're cheap enough and easy to recruit in large buckets so my love of them is eternal, I just try to make sure they get the help they need. Kind of like real life infantry.

    • @Wanderer-nw2so
      @Wanderer-nw2so 3 หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@OffToBattle particularly since I remember for a very long time in the community everyone just said the empire melee infantry was terrible because they couldn't keep themselves from breaking but I realized especially after watching zerovick's video on how to use empire infantry is that the Lord and the heroes are doing the heavy lifting of either keeping their morale up or buffing empire, infantry up or Destroying the enemy Frontline with magic. Particularly with how the Lord acts as the veritable glue of the frontline it made me realize how much of a combined arms force the empire truly is, because without the front line support from battle wizards and captains and priests the empire's famed gun line and artillery don't last very long.

  • @mcsmash4905
    @mcsmash4905 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    empire infantry is the heart and soul of all my empire armies i consider their stats to be good enough , the cav and artillery are complementary to the infantry and make any defincies more or less irrelevant , + the fact that i play on normal only means i do not suffer stat penalties due to autism

    • @OffToBattle
      @OffToBattle  6 หลายเดือนก่อน

      I "only" play on Hard because I feel like this way I serve the broadest swath of the community in feeling out how stuff functions in actual battle. But it's all up to personal choice.

  • @Wanheda-o8d
    @Wanheda-o8d 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    I cannot understand whx Balthasar has muchbeasier acces to est than franz... just technologys for 7.5k
    Imfine with the unlocking by Elector count region but it need something extra like bigger Pool Site and replenishment from beginning.
    And also the upkeep reduction doesnt work properly for them with the minus 3 percent for every ec .
    You can (theoreticly) go very cheap with then
    Empire Generals have also 3 skills for upkeep reduction. So you have 39% from ec , 9% from blueline plus 8% from blue line and from one unique line extra 5-7%ish. Over 60% upkeep reduction for them is really good(when it works) for every generic eg possible

    • @OffToBattle
      @OffToBattle  6 หลายเดือนก่อน

      Hopefully they hotfix any intended mechanics that aren't working properly yet.

  • @kirillrivkin4842
    @kirillrivkin4842 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +3

    Excellent review. The Empire imfantry is OK, with some strenghts and notable holes. They lack a midlevel Sword and shield line holder and an armored Halberdier who would deal greater damage to Large units. Hopefully DLC will address those deficiences. Last question- what about Flagellants- when and how do you use them?

    • @OffToBattle
      @OffToBattle  9 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      I'll make a separate video, but it's not wrong, and not really joking at all, to say, "When Volkmar is your general" and "highly aggressively". Beyond that, well, they're unbreakable, so they're meant as a hard counter to cheap Vampire troops. They also have no armor and horrible melee defense. Very one-sided in concept. Frenzy + Unbreakable + glass? Yeah...

    • @fcon2123
      @fcon2123 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      @@OffToBattle Yeah, they excel against undead or any other lightly armored melee. Keep a war priest nearby for support and/or the right type of wizard for AOE buffs and they hold up surprisingly well.

    • @OffToBattle
      @OffToBattle  9 หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@fcon2123 Well it no longer surprises me, but yes. It's a relatively narrow role, but then you have Greatswords that expand that niche considerably... if you can afford them.

  • @KGAnims
    @KGAnims 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Empire infantry is average to crap, but luckily stuff like magic and priest buffs exist that can crank them up to some good levels in battle.

    • @OffToBattle
      @OffToBattle  6 หลายเดือนก่อน

      And they get more features from the imperial supply troops and RoR's a bit, but yes.

  • @Karina-winsmore
    @Karina-winsmore 7 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Yesnt.

  • @MrSquigglies
    @MrSquigglies 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    I will usually min/max with shielded spears handguns huntsmen and 1 or 2 carroburg greatswords for infantry with bordermen/grenade outriders and an artillery corps tailored for the opponent I expect to fight but usually hellstorms or canon.