My head cannon is that Jayce and Viktor are in a QPR, where it's not exactly romantic but they're still in a devoted cosmic relationship with each other
This is very interesting, because I absolutely had suspected Viktor was asexual and I never heard about this interview from the creators. Ultimately, I think Viktor could be considered homoromantic ace, like another commenter said. There are a couple of things that kind of clued me into this. One of course was Viktor completely missing Sky asking him on a date, which I actually found so amusing. I did clock that as an ace moment for him, as he's far more preoccupied with his work than with any concerns for romantic relationships. We don't see an occurrence like this happening more than once because there's only so much you can fit in a series with this much going on in it. So a scene like this can act as shorthand to hint at Viktor's lack of interest in romance. In fact, I kind of compared him to the other characters. Just about every other main character gets a romantic arc of some kind. Even Jinx (as Powder) gets an episode showing that she and Ekko could have been a thing. In contrast, Viktor shows no interest in pursuing any romantic relationships (or sex for that matter) throughout the series. That also read as very ace to me. Swerving back to Jayce x Viktor, however... I actually also ship them. Simultaneously, I believe Viktor is ace and that there is also a vaguely romantic bond between him and Jayce. There are a couple of moments that seemed particularly intimate to me. The moment where Jayce and Viktor have their first confrontation in the council room, there's an ethereal moment between them when Viktor asks Jayce to be his partner again. During that scene, Jayce is lying down while Viktor is speaking over him. I read that as a preeeetty intimate moment between them, reminiscent of the scene from Spider-Man where SM is hanging upside down and MJ pulls his mask down to kiss him. That is to say, it's a particularly romantic kind of positioning for the two of them that I think was purposeful. And the fact that "partner" can be taken as a synonym for spouse/significant other/etc. "Partner" doesn't have to necessarily be interpreted as a code word for "significant other," but I wouldn't consider it too far-fetched either... The hug between Viktor and Jayce lasts for a bit before Jayce awkwardly breaks the hug apart. That read as a kind of romantic trope to me. But then there's their final moments in the second season where they touch foreheads, implied nudity, etc. There's the moment before Viktor leaves after he's broken out of the Hex Sphere thing where he tells Jayce "Our professional paths diverted long ago. The only thing keeping us together was affection." That could be taken either way, but I think it also can be a kind of hint that Viktor at least is aware that he and Jayce have some kind of deeper emotional bond. And if I were to get a little more fantastical about it, the span of time where Jayce is racing across the continent to confront Viktor at the commune, I kind of read that as a knight riding across the land to save his beloved, whom he believes is in peril. I just feel like there are little tropes here and there that do kinda point toward a more intimate connection between them. Add to that, this relationship between Jayce and Viktor doesn't happen immediately. They work together for months, I think even more than a year, before any of these deeper feelings seem to start to develop between them. And that reads as particularly demi-ace to me in Viktor's case. I think they absolutely can be a pair while Viktor is also asexual. Honestly, I like that idea. I do like the kind of romantic undertones that can be picked up from that. Anyone can interpret their relationship any way that they please, and that's cool! I think both a platonic and a romantic interpretation for the two of them can be viable. But all in all, yeah, I absolutely clocked Viktor as ace, lol. It's fascinating to see the different interpretations that are coming out of the series like that.
I hc Viktor as ace and homoromantic. With a tiny unrequited crush on Jayce. All the "calling Vik ace is homophobic" thing is ridiculous and annoying. It actually feels like we're fighting over scraps.
Yeah, I don't think "Viktor is ace" is homophobic, but I do think "Viktor can't be in love because he's ace" is aphobic. I just, really did not like the way their statement was worded. I also thought it was unfortunate that Vik was the only ace character there as he can fall into some unfortunate stereotypes. However, I do think being ace and homoromantic kinda fits him perfectly.
Yeahhh but let’s be clear, when Christian Linke says ‘Viktor is asexual’ retrospectively in an interview after throwing a tantrum on Twitter, it’s because he doesn’t want him to be interpreted as gay
*Alright, so, the brothers thing, Jayce says it exactly once to the woman he just slept with, and it's not something Viktor ever echoes. This is the thing Christian Linke tried to use to dissuade the fandom from shipping JayVik, and when that didn't stick, he switched to the 'asexual representation'. There is a dissonance between what the writers intended, what the animators did, and what the fandom interpreted, because Fortiche leaned into the ship HARD and a large portion of the audience picked up on that. They even crosscut Viktor and Mel several times throughout the show, equating Jayce's relationship with his girlfriend with that of his 'partner'. That's not brotherly film language, and there heaps of visual evidence that Viktor had passive feelings for Jayce but didn't pursue anything for complex reasons. You can read romance into their relationship, and fandom generally does NOT take it well when a writer comes in and tells them they're wrong for seeing what they saw, which is what Linke did. Amanda Overton's response was received much more positively because she maintained neutrality, saying she understood why fans would come away with a romantic interpretation. *Jayce never backs away from the Hexcore research, he is always 100% willing to do whatever it takes to save Viktor's life. Viktor only gives up when the Hexcore kills Sky. They had an agreement that their inventions wouldn't be used to harm people, ie making weapons, but Jayce actively broke that agreement by first making his hammer, and then the other weapons in season 2 even when Mel assured him she'd defend his right not to make weapons for the state. *I don't interpret Viktor's change during the commune section as solely because of the Hexcore, I attribute it much more towards his guilt at [indirectly] perverting Hextech into something that killed a person. He is atoning for his sins, and the Hexcore is preying on that with the use of Sky's image. *It's the fact that this whole 'Viktor is asexual' thing happened AFTER Linke tried to emphasize the 1 single use of the word 'brother' that people have bad faith over. Fans not only read homophobia into that behaviour, but ableism as well, and I'm not going to discredit the word of real life disabled people who are uncomfortable with the de-sexualizing of another disabled character. And non-shippers have latched on to the 'asexual/brothers' quotes and gone into JayVik spaces to harass shippers specifically because 'Jayce and Viktor aren't gay', there are volatile people on both sides. The ship is not just fans going 'Oh attractive men, I wanna see them kiss', Jayce and Viktor have a very complex dynamic that skews into the platonic, the romantic, and the existential. They are bound to each other through time and space, one does not exist without the other. It is messy, it is unrequited, it is jealous, it is trust, it is betrayal, it is reconciliation, it is love. There's more to this ship than if they're banging or not. For the record, I'm a queer ace person, I have always headcanoned Viktor as homoromantic ace, and it was _very_ easy for me to read his relationship with Jayce as a messy unrequited love. I still think Linke's multiple statements were in bad faith, because I saw it happening in real-time. I can enjoy the 'canon' ace rep and still doubt the way it happened.
I was waiting for someone to point these things out! There’s also the fact that after Mel and Jayce hook up, Mel wakes up alone afterwards, and it match-cuts to Viktor in the hospital with Jayce by his side, implying that Jayce left Mel without telling her when he heard about Viktor’s condition.
@@LuckyLiegeLady246 The bedroom/hospital scene, the painting/hexcore scene, the Mel/Viktor in the fire, the Mel entrance/Viktor entrance in the council room scene, etc Fortiche weren’t playing around, and I hate when people dismiss the animation choices because it doesn’t line up with what the writers supposedly intended. I’m sorry, but there is nothing brotherly about framing Jayce through Viktor’s legs.
Was quite surprised to see this headline because I honestly didn't clock Victor as ace during the show at all, and even in hindsight it feels a bit "eh" to me. It's not that he does anything that contradicts him being ace, but I felt he was portrayed more as an oblivious scientist type who's too focused on his big projects to think much about his emotions.
"why can't they just be friends, why can't we have deep friendships". I say the same thing about every single man/woman close friendship that inevitably turns romantic/sexual in most of popular media.
Haven't listened to the episode yet, but my consistent frustration with ace rep is the continuous trope of "character has no on-screen romance plot and is therefore ace". The community is starved for rep but come on.
as an autistic agender aroace person who relates to viktor more than any other fictional character ever, for many, many reasons (*cough* don't look at my pfp *cough*; that being said, i've never played LoL so i'm only familiar with the show's vik) i have so many thoughts on this. a lot of things, especially with regard to the way and context in which vik was 'confirmed' as ace, have thankfully already been mentioned by other people. all my friends who also like arcane are allo, and most of them ship jayce and vik, and unfortunately lean heavily into the "vik being confirmed ace is just homophobic" thing. there is exactly one angle from which i can see where they're coming from, and that's the male gaze angle, i.e. the fact that there's an explicit lesbian relationship on screen does unfortunately not mean the creators (in this case the writers specifically) couldn't at the same time still be uncomfortable with an explicit gay/mlm relationship, because unlike the lesbian relationship, it does not cater to the mainstream, allo cishet male gaze - which is, at least in terms of people "drifting over" from the game, probably still the main target demographic of the show. this, to me, is the one and only angle from which this argument makes sense. at the same time, as others have mentioned, the animators were on a completely different page than the writers when it comes to vik and jayce's relationship, and i do think some of the visual language (parallels, perspectives, metaphors etc) makes that quite clear. all of that being said, yea, the (aro)ace community is absolutely starved of representation, and there is something spiteful about the mainstream fandom being aware of the ace community being given this tiny, tiny crumb and basically turning it on its head by not just making vik and jayce's relationship somehow the most sexual of them all (including the canonically sexual relationships of cait/vi and jayce/mel) but making a point of creating a running gag within the fandom that basically makes all of viktor (and jayce's) research revolve around sex (suddenly all of hextech is about a hexstrap. i'm not gonna go into it. it's exactly what it says on the tin). being who/what i am, i find engaging with fandom exhausting almost all the time, and unfortunately this is no exception. i've taken my mostly canonical viktor, welcomed the ace add-on as a glorified, maybe or maybe not well-intentioned crumb, and am otherwise just subjecting him to my little philosophical shenanigans in my head. edit: changed my mind about some things here. i don't think the whole 'brothers' thing is as relevant as some people claim it is, and while i personally honestly don't like jayce very much, i do wish there was more nuance re: (aro)ace relationships in media and discussions of it, especially what with queerplatonic relationships being very much a thing, and quite different from a 'regular' friendship. that being said, i speak decent german so i actually went and watched the entire interview and i must say i was oddly positively surprised. the whole context and the way he frames it does make it sound like ace viktor was genuinely something they put thought into and had planned from the beginning. obviously i still can't look inside his head and i do think they could've handled it better (like, even if none of the characters in the show use labels as such, have him tell sky that he just doesn't feel attracted to people or something along those lines), but that plus the fact that i'm increasingly just really angry at how spitefully the whole thing is handled by allo fans who think they can tell ace people in their face that vik is 'bad ace rep' or just intentionally oversexualise him/the situations he's in now has me at a point where i fully insist on claiming him for the aces. go get your allo gay representation elsewhere, heck knows there's a lot more of it out there than any kind of ace rep, and just bloody leave us our crumbs
(THIS IS SO LONG IM SORRY LOL) Hooo boy I have a lot of thoughts about asexual Viktor and the fandom’s reaction to it. It’s such a mess. Full disclaimer I’m ace but I do ship Jayvik so that’s where I’m coming from. And I’m pretty deep in the Arcane fanbase (unfortunately) so I saw all of this unfold in real time (😬). I really agree with pretty much everything at the beginning of this episode, I do not like “word of God” confirmations, and I also did not get any concrete ace vibes from him in the show itself. I think he probably gives ace vibes to people because of 2 main things: the fact that he is a loner/introverted/genius/scientist archetype, and the fact that he is not into Sky. But personally those two things are not solid enough in-universe proof that he’s ace. Btw I am usually someone who goes for platonic relationships in media and it takes a *lot* for me to actually ship something, and Jayce/Viktor happens to be one of those few things. I actually side-eye a lot of popular gay ships between characters who are just friends (hey, those ships aren’t for me but I’m happy people are having fun) but I dunno Jayvik just clicks? Anyways I’m in a weird spot because 1. Yes I am extremely uncomfortable with the idea of a hierarchy where romance is more meaningful than friendship and shippers have a tendency to downplay platonic bonds in favor of romance. But 2. I think Jayce and Viktor have many romantic tropes attached to their relationship (especially after the finale) so I can't blame people for shipping them and I don't think it's wrong to. But I'm just once ace and I know others feel differently. I don’t think you touched on this but I think the *timing* of Christian Linke confirming that Viktor was asexual is the main reason why he got hit with the homophobia accusations. Iirc it happened a few days after he said that Jayce and Viktor were meant to be just friends because it’s important to showcase male friendships in media or something like that. Which sounds very nice on paper until you realize that the vast majority of male relationships in media are already platonic. And then a couple days later that’s when he said “To me, Viktor was always asexual” which… yeah. Not the best timing if you want people to believe your representation was genuine all along. Obviously I am not CL and I will never know if he genuinely thought he was writing an ace character with Viktor the whole time, and his timing was just poor. But it unfortunately came across to many people as ‘Oh right I should finally officially confirm he’s ace so people know that he and Jayce are NOT a thing”. So the timing irked many people including myself. The interview happened maybe a week or so after the finale in which many people were getting romantic vibes from their final scene. I think if this interview had happened during the hiatus between s1 and s2 it would not have have been nearly this bad. So… are his comments literally homophobia? Nah definitely not. And tbh I kind of feel bad for the guy, I think he just gave a pretty casual interview without really thinking of the best possible wording, and it blew up out of his control. But is it also possible his intention was to ’no-homo’ the ship by using asexuality as a shield? Yeah it’s a possibility that can’t be ruled out. Especially since he seems to conflate asexuality with aromanticism. Vik being asexual does not rule him out of being in a romantic relationship, so if it was his intention to shut down any romance with Viktor, he didn’t even go about it the right way, he should’ve just said Viktor is aroace. So after that interview’s horrible timing it sparked a ton of discussion online of course. As I saw one comment say “don’t use Viktor’s asexuality as a stick to hit shippers with. Sincerely, an ace.“ which is sooo true. Even today I saw a very nice Jayce/Viktor illustration on twitter and of course someone was in the comments saying “Isn’t Viktor canonically asexual this is gross” so CL’s “word of God” confirmation has opened the floodgates for stuff like this and it leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Ok I will stop rambling. This was a lot longer than I expected it to be. TLDR: I’m ace. Ace rep is great! Viktor's asexuality is confirmed but the timing of one of the creators confirming it was really bad and made it come across like he only said it to no-homo a ship. Was that actually his intention? We don’t know but that’s how it came across to many people. So now there’s a division between ace fans who are happy with the rep and those that find it kind of hollow (I'm in this camp) because it’s not made clear in the show itself, so this situation just effing sucks.
Thank you!! As an ace that does not ship often I feel the exact same way. I will say, as a lover of animation and attention to detail, my read was that a romance was being conveyed here just taking the show at face value. This show was a labor of love with many creator's/gods. I would rather unintended good representation then rep that is verbally confirmed offhand but you have to squint. No offense to anyone who feels otherwise.
@@Vanrosea "I would rather unintended good representation than rep that is verbally confirmed offhand but you have to squint." You worded this SO well. I agree completely. I was lowkey kind of scared to post this because I don’t want other ace people to think “you want to to erase his canon sexuality just because you ship them.” It’s just that I personally don’t enjoy settling for crumbs and I don’t enjoy representation that feels like an afterthought by the writers. But other people have expressed that they’re ok with "word of God" confirmations and I respect it!
32:01 - That's true; for example, I'm working on a TF2 ship fic where Sniper is ace (because I read him as ace as a headcanon) and is romantically attracted to another character and the relationship that results is asexual. So fanfics are a way for people to explore ace romantic characters.
Portraying the fandom-proclaimed sex icon of TF2 as asexual?! Genius. If you publish it, could I get a little hint on where to find it? 🥺 I love to see asexual representation in TF2 fanworks. ;-;
I haven't listened to the episode and I'm excited to hear your opinions, because I actually love that Arcane showed a platonic relationship as very loving and significant and even showed them embracing platonically, then I learned Viktor was meant to be ace and they did it because aces are underrepresented; and _then_ I found out all the things that made me happy in terms of asexual and aromantic representation others were using it to call the creator homophobic
33:39 personally I hate that they did that. putting an actually interesting scene together with that weird "space" sex scene just threw me off. to get the full story with the hex core it was also completely unskippable and then the emotional turmoil between the anger and frustration, but I still want to see what's happening with Victor and the hex core .... hhh why did they do that?
@atuin9387 it was more rhetorical and mainy based on my frustration over not being able to skip a sceneof which half of it made me uncomfortable, irritated and deeply frustrated because I had to watch them do _that…_ I know sex sells, but I'm just repulsed by it, so will always prefer the ability to skip it. even *if* it's an important scene in one way or another. basically what you describe as giving it more impact just did the opposite to me and made the tragic Victor part of it get overshadowed by my frustration. also this time a genuine question. how in the world do people think there is anything romantic between Jayce and Victor?? they call each other brothers and behave in a way I behave with my siblings and friends that I'm so close with that I in fact count them as additional siblings. dunno how to say it, but whatever affection they show each other pales greatly in comparison to the affection I show towards my younger sibling. both my siblings mean the world to me and I cherish them with my entire existence, but my younger sibling and I share a bond that runs really deep and yet is still nothing but unconditional, familial love. I genuinely don't understand why strong platonic love, be it amical, familial or queerplatonic ... why does it always get overwritten with romance? why do allos always devalue deep platonic relationships as if they cannot exist? does a mother have romantic feelings for hr child, because some mothers have such strong love that some even gain short time super strength to keep their child safe? that protective mama bear instinctual adrenaline rush is a true thing and the love needed for that surpasses your average romantic relationship. is it still of less value, because it's platonic? what would you say if I tell you I have people in my life who are not related to me and .. well, I'm aroace. so romace and sex are an obvious nope for me. not even QPRs. yet I did risk my entire life's stability for their sake w/o hesitation and I'd do it again. I'd even get myself in physical/lethal danger for them w/o hesitation, because that's how much they mean to me in a solely platonic way. it's not like I am in love with any of them. one of them is getting married next year and it just makes me heart warm and fuzzy when those I care about are happy and I'm glad I can be there to support them w/o the need to date them. allos rather like to mold the genuine joy for other people's happiness into jealousy and other toxic crap like that. makes me glad that the only type of attraction I somewhat slightly feel is familial and otherwise the love I give people is freely chosen by myself and not because some attraction makes someone more or less appealing, platonically or not. guess attractionless people(like myself) can honestly say that the love they give is truly unconditional, because it's just given w/o a need for reciprocation as it is often the case when strings of some kind of attraction are attached to it.
@smolmoru so sorry for reading your first comment wrong 😅 And I agree with you about their relationship. It's definitely love, but rather platonic one. And I quite like the idea of platonic/queerplatonic relationship, being chosen over romantic one. I think we need more of that in media. (but I don't really see them as siblings, if my memory serves me right only Jayce calls him brother once, while speaking to Mel). Although I do understand why so many people ship it (and I don't think there is anything wrong with it). There are visual paralers between Mel and Viktor, I think we are supposed to make a connection between them, and since Jayce and Mel are in relationship many people decides that Jayce and Viktor also have romantic feelings towards each other. And let's face it, we live in sociaty that prioritise romance over friendship, and that's what we've been consuming in media since childhood. And that sucks.
32:02 I can relate to this a lot. I'm an aroace person who adores shipping, and so many of my ships are between characters I headcanon to be aspec. My very favourite ship, Maeglin x Sauron (both from the Silmarillion) is always a QPR. My Sauron is aroace and my Maeglin is biromantic ace. But a lot of people just assume characters are allo and have allo experiences when I talk about them. Another ship I have, Witch-king x Khamul (from LOTR) is one that I headcanon to be ace/allo. And I remember offhandedly mentioning that I shipped them and someone made a comment relating to what they believed Witch-king's sexual preferences were. I had to explain that my ace Witch-king is not interested in having sex. I have not seen Arcane, but I wanted to share some of my own experiences relating to shipping.
When I found out someone from Arcane was Ace I instantly thought it would be Viktor. Then I found out that I was right. Still haven’t seen season two but it sounds like it’s worth the watch
Personally I don’t have any hate towards word of god confirming LGBT rep. I don’t need a character to say they’re gay or aromantic to feel affirmed. As long as they’re fleshed out, I’m good. For shipping, I don’t really care who or why someone might ship 2 characters. Just don’t be toxic about it.
I disagree that there are no stakes about gay representation, just because CaitVi exists. For one, not a single MLM pairing in this show exists. Not even in the background. And that really stands out when the setting for this show is supposed to be completely free of homophobia. In a world without homophobia much much more male characters would be openly gay. Yet in Arcane all the lgbt rep is women.
I also wish there were more ace characters in children's content, it seems like a perfect fit for kids, just saying; hey, you don't have to grow up and get a partner and have kids if that's not what you want
I have only watched the first season but when they showed the relationship between Jayce and Mel, I immediately concluded that neither of them have an ounce of romantic feelings for each other but it's a purely political alliance type of situation to both of them. It's unclear if either of them believe that the other have feelings for them or do they both know it's just to advance their careers.
I always hc jace as bi and then i did get ace vibes from victor, so my mind always decided they were qpr or a homoromantic relationship. But i also was eventually convinced of mel and jace as a couple as well... so my brain automatically went ah yes a bi polycule. I also do this for wicked. Usually fiyero is my least favorite plot point in the play version of wicked and i tend to think his romance with both leading ladies is... definitely cannon, but ugh. But i actually liked the flirtyness between the movie version of fiyero and elphaba this time. And so I strongly go to elphaba has chemistry with more than one gender. Therefore, she is bi, and we could totally have a polycule!!! Sometimes, i find dismissals of a heterosexual couple as comp het to be as unbelievable as the homosexual couple is just close friends. And i'm just like WHAT IF BOTH???? And then my hc automatically goes to what if everyone was just okay with the fact that different types of relationships are cool and you can feel romantic and other love for more than one person and you are still important in that persons life and they form healthy communication necessary for a healthy polycule??? Why must we push for one thing when we could be forming many polycules!!!!!!
Which category is it when you ascend to the astral plane with your best friend? But in all seriousness, I appreciate your analysis and I like Viktor even more now.
Never clocked Victor as ace while watching, and i dont assume they are just because they dont have or dont persue romantic or sexual relationships with other characters in the story. As far as the discord... Yea not surprised.
I'm not surprised that Viktor is asexual. I didn't catch that from the show, but I definitely caught on that he wasn't romantically interested in anyone.
this is really interesting! i (ace person) personally really like jayvik, and i do think they have something going on whether its a romantic/allo relationship or a qpr. for me at the beginning of this discussion i've wondered about the 'disabled character is ace' trope/stereotype when it came out that the creator wanted viktor to be ace? idk if anyone has any thoughts on this i'd be interested to know, because on the one hand, ace rep is necessary and great if viktor is canonly ace coz he's my favourite character, but at the same time i know that disabled people often get desexualised and so having a disabled character who is also ace might be a bit tropey/stereotypey?
watched the first season and I was like "these two have a very sweet complex friendship... the internets gonna ruin it with shipping arent they." Given the fact that the 'seeing victor as ace is homophobic" discourse leaves zero room for the fact that league has gay characters and relationships including within this show and also is based ont he idea that if he is ace he cannot be gay, which implies the only thing people care about is writing smut about them... nevermind the fact that people say it was only said because the creator was homophobic and hated jayvik shippers, leaving no room for the idea that, if he thought this character was full aroace that is also a reason he might be frustrated with the shipping that his intentions didn't come across... also side note but league does have other gay characters, niko is lesbian and varus is 2/3 a gay couple
the thing with ppl calling it homophobic when fans state the fact that jayce and viktor's relationship is canonically/objectively platonic, is that, sure, in a different context, in a different piece of media, the same portrayal could easily be interpreted and intended as romantic subtext, or queerbaiting, etc, but here that is so clearly not the case. caitvi are the main pairing of the series, as explicitly and canonically gay as can be; there are NO stakes about gay representation. so in this context, insisting on the idea that their relationship is romantic is necessarily just aphobia. it's purely the idea of "there is no platonic explanation for this" "platonic friendships can't be that deep, it has to be -more- romantic". (obviously shipping characters is a different matter and not inherently problematic. there's a difference bw shipping x ship and recognizing what is canon) not to mention the often seen idea that a character being aro/ace or a relationship being platonic, as opposed to their imagined alternative, gay, is homophobic and "taking away / erasing gay representation" (important: when the canon isn't even gay in the first place! or is even literally canonically aspec!), but they never consider the other way around being aphobic and taking away / erasing aspec representation. this double-standard always makes it so obvious that they never think about aspec people or their experiences and struggles, do not give a rat's ass about them or aspec representation and don't consider it an identity that matters in any way
but on the other hand, personally the only part of the discourse i've seen is _aspec_ _people_ who see it as bad representation motivated by homophobia, and who are disappointed in this word-of-god asexuality and interpret it as that creator seeing viktor as ace because of his whole 'machine, inhuman' thing (which tbf while i haven't seen the livestream myself, makes sense to me. like it isn't hard to imagine that even if he was well intenioned, when he thought of "hmm which character would be asexual?", the one who's defined by his lack of attachment and feelings towards other people is the one that popped up and worked precisely bc of those reasons... i disagree that making viktor asexual was part of his humanization in arcane in any way. imo they rather saw him as asexual bc of all his inhuman traits, and it just so happens that that implies that he was asexual when human too. which was never shown anyway.), and that the reason he brought it up was to shut down jayvik shipping, out of homophobia. this second part doesn't make sense to me tho, like if a character's canon orientation doesn't match a ship, it makes sense and it's normal to point it out and be like "actually this character is x", regardless of what the orientation or ship is... but again it depends on the context and i haven't seen the livestram so i don't know it
I remember saying that I felt like the JayVik ship was erasing asexuality, and getting dogged on over it. It was completely unnecessary, and a bunch of people called it homophobic that the people behind the show called Viktor ace. It drove me crazy.
Yes. The extremely homophobic show that [checking me notes...] Has two lesbians that survive to the end and are canonically a couple now. Hm. Yes. Personally I like JayVik, but i see it more queer platonic anyway. That may be very much because I myself am disabled and aroace and a scientist (and slavic) so I could have projected *really* hard on Victor from the moment he appeared on screen. As for the initial point: arguably, people who call the asexual erasure of a-spec characters (in fanon AND canon) homophobic are the people actively erasing asexuality. But that's just my hot take . 😊 . 🍰 🍵👌 __________________ | |
My head cannon is that Jayce and Viktor are in a QPR, where it's not exactly romantic but they're still in a devoted cosmic relationship with each other
That was my initial interpretation about them too, even before the ace announcement
This is very interesting, because I absolutely had suspected Viktor was asexual and I never heard about this interview from the creators. Ultimately, I think Viktor could be considered homoromantic ace, like another commenter said.
There are a couple of things that kind of clued me into this. One of course was Viktor completely missing Sky asking him on a date, which I actually found so amusing. I did clock that as an ace moment for him, as he's far more preoccupied with his work than with any concerns for romantic relationships. We don't see an occurrence like this happening more than once because there's only so much you can fit in a series with this much going on in it. So a scene like this can act as shorthand to hint at Viktor's lack of interest in romance.
In fact, I kind of compared him to the other characters. Just about every other main character gets a romantic arc of some kind. Even Jinx (as Powder) gets an episode showing that she and Ekko could have been a thing. In contrast, Viktor shows no interest in pursuing any romantic relationships (or sex for that matter) throughout the series. That also read as very ace to me.
Swerving back to Jayce x Viktor, however... I actually also ship them. Simultaneously, I believe Viktor is ace and that there is also a vaguely romantic bond between him and Jayce. There are a couple of moments that seemed particularly intimate to me. The moment where Jayce and Viktor have their first confrontation in the council room, there's an ethereal moment between them when Viktor asks Jayce to be his partner again.
During that scene, Jayce is lying down while Viktor is speaking over him. I read that as a preeeetty intimate moment between them, reminiscent of the scene from Spider-Man where SM is hanging upside down and MJ pulls his mask down to kiss him. That is to say, it's a particularly romantic kind of positioning for the two of them that I think was purposeful. And the fact that "partner" can be taken as a synonym for spouse/significant other/etc. "Partner" doesn't have to necessarily be interpreted as a code word for "significant other," but I wouldn't consider it too far-fetched either...
The hug between Viktor and Jayce lasts for a bit before Jayce awkwardly breaks the hug apart. That read as a kind of romantic trope to me.
But then there's their final moments in the second season where they touch foreheads, implied nudity, etc. There's the moment before Viktor leaves after he's broken out of the Hex Sphere thing where he tells Jayce "Our professional paths diverted long ago. The only thing keeping us together was affection." That could be taken either way, but I think it also can be a kind of hint that Viktor at least is aware that he and Jayce have some kind of deeper emotional bond.
And if I were to get a little more fantastical about it, the span of time where Jayce is racing across the continent to confront Viktor at the commune, I kind of read that as a knight riding across the land to save his beloved, whom he believes is in peril.
I just feel like there are little tropes here and there that do kinda point toward a more intimate connection between them. Add to that, this relationship between Jayce and Viktor doesn't happen immediately. They work together for months, I think even more than a year, before any of these deeper feelings seem to start to develop between them. And that reads as particularly demi-ace to me in Viktor's case.
I think they absolutely can be a pair while Viktor is also asexual. Honestly, I like that idea. I do like the kind of romantic undertones that can be picked up from that.
Anyone can interpret their relationship any way that they please, and that's cool! I think both a platonic and a romantic interpretation for the two of them can be viable.
But all in all, yeah, I absolutely clocked Viktor as ace, lol. It's fascinating to see the different interpretations that are coming out of the series like that.
I hc Viktor as ace and homoromantic. With a tiny unrequited crush on Jayce. All the "calling Vik ace is homophobic" thing is ridiculous and annoying. It actually feels like we're fighting over scraps.
Yeah, I don't think "Viktor is ace" is homophobic, but I do think "Viktor can't be in love because he's ace" is aphobic. I just, really did not like the way their statement was worded. I also thought it was unfortunate that Vik was the only ace character there as he can fall into some unfortunate stereotypes. However, I do think being ace and homoromantic kinda fits him perfectly.
Yeahhh but let’s be clear, when Christian Linke says ‘Viktor is asexual’ retrospectively in an interview after throwing a tantrum on Twitter, it’s because he doesn’t want him to be interpreted as gay
*Alright, so, the brothers thing, Jayce says it exactly once to the woman he just slept with, and it's not something Viktor ever echoes. This is the thing Christian Linke tried to use to dissuade the fandom from shipping JayVik, and when that didn't stick, he switched to the 'asexual representation'. There is a dissonance between what the writers intended, what the animators did, and what the fandom interpreted, because Fortiche leaned into the ship HARD and a large portion of the audience picked up on that. They even crosscut Viktor and Mel several times throughout the show, equating Jayce's relationship with his girlfriend with that of his 'partner'. That's not brotherly film language, and there heaps of visual evidence that Viktor had passive feelings for Jayce but didn't pursue anything for complex reasons. You can read romance into their relationship, and fandom generally does NOT take it well when a writer comes in and tells them they're wrong for seeing what they saw, which is what Linke did. Amanda Overton's response was received much more positively because she maintained neutrality, saying she understood why fans would come away with a romantic interpretation.
*Jayce never backs away from the Hexcore research, he is always 100% willing to do whatever it takes to save Viktor's life. Viktor only gives up when the Hexcore kills Sky. They had an agreement that their inventions wouldn't be used to harm people, ie making weapons, but Jayce actively broke that agreement by first making his hammer, and then the other weapons in season 2 even when Mel assured him she'd defend his right not to make weapons for the state.
*I don't interpret Viktor's change during the commune section as solely because of the Hexcore, I attribute it much more towards his guilt at [indirectly] perverting Hextech into something that killed a person. He is atoning for his sins, and the Hexcore is preying on that with the use of Sky's image.
*It's the fact that this whole 'Viktor is asexual' thing happened AFTER Linke tried to emphasize the 1 single use of the word 'brother' that people have bad faith over. Fans not only read homophobia into that behaviour, but ableism as well, and I'm not going to discredit the word of real life disabled people who are uncomfortable with the de-sexualizing of another disabled character. And non-shippers have latched on to the 'asexual/brothers' quotes and gone into JayVik spaces to harass shippers specifically because 'Jayce and Viktor aren't gay', there are volatile people on both sides.
The ship is not just fans going 'Oh attractive men, I wanna see them kiss', Jayce and Viktor have a very complex dynamic that skews into the platonic, the romantic, and the existential. They are bound to each other through time and space, one does not exist without the other. It is messy, it is unrequited, it is jealous, it is trust, it is betrayal, it is reconciliation, it is love. There's more to this ship than if they're banging or not. For the record, I'm a queer ace person, I have always headcanoned Viktor as homoromantic ace, and it was _very_ easy for me to read his relationship with Jayce as a messy unrequited love. I still think Linke's multiple statements were in bad faith, because I saw it happening in real-time. I can enjoy the 'canon' ace rep and still doubt the way it happened.
I was waiting for someone to point these things out! There’s also the fact that after Mel and Jayce hook up, Mel wakes up alone afterwards, and it match-cuts to Viktor in the hospital with Jayce by his side, implying that Jayce left Mel without telling her when he heard about Viktor’s condition.
@@LuckyLiegeLady246 The bedroom/hospital scene, the painting/hexcore scene, the Mel/Viktor in the fire, the Mel entrance/Viktor entrance in the council room scene, etc
Fortiche weren’t playing around, and I hate when people dismiss the animation choices because it doesn’t line up with what the writers supposedly intended. I’m sorry, but there is nothing brotherly about framing Jayce through Viktor’s legs.
Okay so it’s only Jayce who says ‘He’s like a brother to me’ ONCE, in a conversation with Mel
Was quite surprised to see this headline because I honestly didn't clock Victor as ace during the show at all, and even in hindsight it feels a bit "eh" to me. It's not that he does anything that contradicts him being ace, but I felt he was portrayed more as an oblivious scientist type who's too focused on his big projects to think much about his emotions.
"why can't they just be friends, why can't we have deep friendships".
I say the same thing about every single man/woman close friendship that inevitably turns romantic/sexual in most of popular media.
Haven't listened to the episode yet, but my consistent frustration with ace rep is the continuous trope of "character has no on-screen romance plot and is therefore ace". The community is starved for rep but come on.
as an autistic agender aroace person who relates to viktor more than any other fictional character ever, for many, many reasons (*cough* don't look at my pfp *cough*; that being said, i've never played LoL so i'm only familiar with the show's vik) i have so many thoughts on this. a lot of things, especially with regard to the way and context in which vik was 'confirmed' as ace, have thankfully already been mentioned by other people. all my friends who also like arcane are allo, and most of them ship jayce and vik, and unfortunately lean heavily into the "vik being confirmed ace is just homophobic" thing. there is exactly one angle from which i can see where they're coming from, and that's the male gaze angle, i.e. the fact that there's an explicit lesbian relationship on screen does unfortunately not mean the creators (in this case the writers specifically) couldn't at the same time still be uncomfortable with an explicit gay/mlm relationship, because unlike the lesbian relationship, it does not cater to the mainstream, allo cishet male gaze - which is, at least in terms of people "drifting over" from the game, probably still the main target demographic of the show. this, to me, is the one and only angle from which this argument makes sense. at the same time, as others have mentioned, the animators were on a completely different page than the writers when it comes to vik and jayce's relationship, and i do think some of the visual language (parallels, perspectives, metaphors etc) makes that quite clear.
all of that being said, yea, the (aro)ace community is absolutely starved of representation, and there is something spiteful about the mainstream fandom being aware of the ace community being given this tiny, tiny crumb and basically turning it on its head by not just making vik and jayce's relationship somehow the most sexual of them all (including the canonically sexual relationships of cait/vi and jayce/mel) but making a point of creating a running gag within the fandom that basically makes all of viktor (and jayce's) research revolve around sex (suddenly all of hextech is about a hexstrap. i'm not gonna go into it. it's exactly what it says on the tin).
being who/what i am, i find engaging with fandom exhausting almost all the time, and unfortunately this is no exception. i've taken my mostly canonical viktor, welcomed the ace add-on as a glorified, maybe or maybe not well-intentioned crumb, and am otherwise just subjecting him to my little philosophical shenanigans in my head.
edit: changed my mind about some things here. i don't think the whole 'brothers' thing is as relevant as some people claim it is, and while i personally honestly don't like jayce very much, i do wish there was more nuance re: (aro)ace relationships in media and discussions of it, especially what with queerplatonic relationships being very much a thing, and quite different from a 'regular' friendship. that being said, i speak decent german so i actually went and watched the entire interview and i must say i was oddly positively surprised. the whole context and the way he frames it does make it sound like ace viktor was genuinely something they put thought into and had planned from the beginning. obviously i still can't look inside his head and i do think they could've handled it better (like, even if none of the characters in the show use labels as such, have him tell sky that he just doesn't feel attracted to people or something along those lines), but that plus the fact that i'm increasingly just really angry at how spitefully the whole thing is handled by allo fans who think they can tell ace people in their face that vik is 'bad ace rep' or just intentionally oversexualise him/the situations he's in now has me at a point where i fully insist on claiming him for the aces. go get your allo gay representation elsewhere, heck knows there's a lot more of it out there than any kind of ace rep, and just bloody leave us our crumbs
(THIS IS SO LONG IM SORRY LOL)
Hooo boy I have a lot of thoughts about asexual Viktor and the fandom’s reaction to it. It’s such a mess.
Full disclaimer I’m ace but I do ship Jayvik so that’s where I’m coming from. And I’m pretty deep in the Arcane fanbase (unfortunately) so I saw all of this unfold in real time (😬).
I really agree with pretty much everything at the beginning of this episode, I do not like “word of God” confirmations, and I also did not get any concrete ace vibes from him in the show itself. I think he probably gives ace vibes to people because of 2 main things: the fact that he is a loner/introverted/genius/scientist archetype, and the fact that he is not into Sky. But personally those two things are not solid enough in-universe proof that he’s ace.
Btw I am usually someone who goes for platonic relationships in media and it takes a *lot* for me to actually ship something, and Jayce/Viktor happens to be one of those few things. I actually side-eye a lot of popular gay ships between characters who are just friends (hey, those ships aren’t for me but I’m happy people are having fun) but I dunno Jayvik just clicks?
Anyways I’m in a weird spot because 1. Yes I am extremely uncomfortable with the idea of a hierarchy where romance is more meaningful than friendship and shippers have a tendency to downplay platonic bonds in favor of romance. But 2. I think Jayce and Viktor have many romantic tropes attached to their relationship (especially after the finale) so I can't blame people for shipping them and I don't think it's wrong to. But I'm just once ace and I know others feel differently.
I don’t think you touched on this but I think the *timing* of Christian Linke confirming that Viktor was asexual is the main reason why he got hit with the homophobia accusations. Iirc it happened a few days after he said that Jayce and Viktor were meant to be just friends because it’s important to showcase male friendships in media or something like that. Which sounds very nice on paper until you realize that the vast majority of male relationships in media are already platonic.
And then a couple days later that’s when he said “To me, Viktor was always asexual” which… yeah. Not the best timing if you want people to believe your representation was genuine all along. Obviously I am not CL and I will never know if he genuinely thought he was writing an ace character with Viktor the whole time, and his timing was just poor. But it unfortunately came across to many people as ‘Oh right I should finally officially confirm he’s ace so people know that he and Jayce are NOT a thing”. So the timing irked many people including myself. The interview happened maybe a week or so after the finale in which many people were getting romantic vibes from their final scene. I think if this interview had happened during the hiatus between s1 and s2 it would not have have been nearly this bad.
So… are his comments literally homophobia? Nah definitely not. And tbh I kind of feel bad for the guy, I think he just gave a pretty casual interview without really thinking of the best possible wording, and it blew up out of his control. But is it also possible his intention was to ’no-homo’ the ship by using asexuality as a shield? Yeah it’s a possibility that can’t be ruled out. Especially since he seems to conflate asexuality with aromanticism. Vik being asexual does not rule him out of being in a romantic relationship, so if it was his intention to shut down any romance with Viktor, he didn’t even go about it the right way, he should’ve just said Viktor is aroace.
So after that interview’s horrible timing it sparked a ton of discussion online of course. As I saw one comment say “don’t use Viktor’s asexuality as a stick to hit shippers with. Sincerely, an ace.“ which is sooo true. Even today I saw a very nice Jayce/Viktor illustration on twitter and of course someone was in the comments saying “Isn’t Viktor canonically asexual this is gross” so CL’s “word of God” confirmation has opened the floodgates for stuff like this and it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
Ok I will stop rambling. This was a lot longer than I expected it to be.
TLDR: I’m ace. Ace rep is great! Viktor's asexuality is confirmed but the timing of one of the creators confirming it was really bad and made it come across like he only said it to no-homo a ship. Was that actually his intention? We don’t know but that’s how it came across to many people. So now there’s a division between ace fans who are happy with the rep and those that find it kind of hollow (I'm in this camp) because it’s not made clear in the show itself, so this situation just effing sucks.
Thank you!! As an ace that does not ship often I feel the exact same way.
I will say, as a lover of animation and attention to detail, my read was that a romance was being conveyed here just taking the show at face value. This show was a labor of love with many creator's/gods. I would rather unintended good representation then rep that is verbally confirmed offhand but you have to squint. No offense to anyone who feels otherwise.
@@Vanrosea "I would rather unintended good representation than rep that is verbally confirmed offhand but you have to squint."
You worded this SO well. I agree completely.
I was lowkey kind of scared to post this because I don’t want other ace people to think “you want to to erase his canon sexuality just because you ship them.”
It’s just that I personally don’t enjoy settling for crumbs and I don’t enjoy representation that feels like an afterthought by the writers.
But other people have expressed that they’re ok with "word of God" confirmations and I respect it!
32:01 - That's true; for example, I'm working on a TF2 ship fic where Sniper is ace (because I read him as ace as a headcanon) and is romantically attracted to another character and the relationship that results is asexual. So fanfics are a way for people to explore ace romantic characters.
Portraying the fandom-proclaimed sex icon of TF2 as asexual?! Genius. If you publish it, could I get a little hint on where to find it? 🥺 I love to see asexual representation in TF2 fanworks. ;-;
I haven't listened to the episode and I'm excited to hear your opinions, because I actually love that Arcane showed a platonic relationship as very loving and significant and even showed them embracing platonically, then I learned Viktor was meant to be ace and they did it because aces are underrepresented; and _then_ I found out all the things that made me happy in terms of asexual and aromantic representation others were using it to call the creator homophobic
I'm trying to think of a pun that rhymes Jayce and Ace
I refer to the scene of Jayce in season 2 episode 7 as Jayce In The Hole if that tickles your fancy
33:39 personally I hate that they did that. putting an actually interesting scene together with that weird "space" sex scene just threw me off. to get the full story with the hex core it was also completely unskippable and then the emotional turmoil between the anger and frustration, but I still want to see what's happening with Victor and the hex core .... hhh why did they do that?
@atuin9387 it was more rhetorical and mainy based on my frustration over not being able to skip a sceneof which half of it made me uncomfortable, irritated and deeply frustrated because I had to watch them do _that…_
I know sex sells, but I'm just repulsed by it, so will always prefer the ability to skip it. even *if* it's an important scene in one way or another. basically what you describe as giving it more impact just did the opposite to me and made the tragic Victor part of it get overshadowed by my frustration.
also this time a genuine question. how in the world do people think there is anything romantic between Jayce and Victor?? they call each other brothers and behave in a way I behave with my siblings and friends that I'm so close with that I in fact count them as additional siblings.
dunno how to say it, but whatever affection they show each other pales greatly in comparison to the affection I show towards my younger sibling. both my siblings mean the world to me and I cherish them with my entire existence, but my younger sibling and I share a bond that runs really deep and yet is still nothing but unconditional, familial love. I genuinely don't understand why strong platonic love, be it amical, familial or queerplatonic ... why does it always get overwritten with romance? why do allos always devalue deep platonic relationships as if they cannot exist?
does a mother have romantic feelings for hr child, because some mothers have such strong love that some even gain short time super strength to keep their child safe? that protective mama bear instinctual adrenaline rush is a true thing and the love needed for that surpasses your average romantic relationship. is it still of less value, because it's platonic?
what would you say if I tell you I have people in my life who are not related to me and .. well, I'm aroace. so romace and sex are an obvious nope for me. not even QPRs. yet I did risk my entire life's stability for their sake w/o hesitation and I'd do it again. I'd even get myself in physical/lethal danger for them w/o hesitation, because that's how much they mean to me in a solely platonic way. it's not like I am in love with any of them. one of them is getting married next year and it just makes me heart warm and fuzzy when those I care about are happy and I'm glad I can be there to support them w/o the need to date them.
allos rather like to mold the genuine joy for other people's happiness into jealousy and other toxic crap like that. makes me glad that the only type of attraction I somewhat slightly feel is familial and otherwise the love I give people is freely chosen by myself and not because some attraction makes someone more or less appealing, platonically or not. guess attractionless people(like myself) can honestly say that the love they give is truly unconditional, because it's just given w/o a need for reciprocation as it is often the case when strings of some kind of attraction are attached to it.
@smolmoru so sorry for reading your first comment wrong 😅
And I agree with you about their relationship. It's definitely love, but rather platonic one. And I quite like the idea of platonic/queerplatonic relationship, being chosen over romantic one. I think we need more of that in media. (but I don't really see them as siblings, if my memory serves me right only Jayce calls him brother once, while speaking to Mel).
Although I do understand why so many people ship it (and I don't think there is anything wrong with it). There are visual paralers between Mel and Viktor, I think we are supposed to make a connection between them, and since Jayce and Mel are in relationship many people decides that Jayce and Viktor also have romantic feelings towards each other.
And let's face it, we live in sociaty that prioritise romance over friendship, and that's what we've been consuming in media since childhood. And that sucks.
Ohh interesting discussion. As someone who is asexual but ships Jayce and Viktor I agree with a lot and also disagree with a lot.
32:02 I can relate to this a lot. I'm an aroace person who adores shipping, and so many of my ships are between characters I headcanon to be aspec. My very favourite ship, Maeglin x Sauron (both from the Silmarillion) is always a QPR. My Sauron is aroace and my Maeglin is biromantic ace. But a lot of people just assume characters are allo and have allo experiences when I talk about them.
Another ship I have, Witch-king x Khamul (from LOTR) is one that I headcanon to be ace/allo. And I remember offhandedly mentioning that I shipped them and someone made a comment relating to what they believed Witch-king's sexual preferences were. I had to explain that my ace Witch-king is not interested in having sex.
I have not seen Arcane, but I wanted to share some of my own experiences relating to shipping.
When I found out someone from Arcane was Ace I instantly thought it would be Viktor. Then I found out that I was right. Still haven’t seen season two but it sounds like it’s worth the watch
Victor never called Jace his brother. And Jace only said it once in season one...
Personally I don’t have any hate towards word of god confirming LGBT rep. I don’t need a character to say they’re gay or aromantic to feel affirmed. As long as they’re fleshed out, I’m good. For shipping, I don’t really care who or why someone might ship 2 characters. Just don’t be toxic about it.
I disagree that there are no stakes about gay representation, just because CaitVi exists. For one, not a single MLM pairing in this show exists. Not even in the background. And that really stands out when the setting for this show is supposed to be completely free of homophobia. In a world without homophobia much much more male characters would be openly gay. Yet in Arcane all the lgbt rep is women.
I also wish there were more ace characters in children's content, it seems like a perfect fit for kids, just saying; hey, you don't have to grow up and get a partner and have kids if that's not what you want
I have only watched the first season but when they showed the relationship between Jayce and Mel, I immediately concluded that neither of them have an ounce of romantic feelings for each other but it's a purely political alliance type of situation to both of them. It's unclear if either of them believe that the other have feelings for them or do they both know it's just to advance their careers.
I always hc jace as bi and then i did get ace vibes from victor, so my mind always decided they were qpr or a homoromantic relationship. But i also was eventually convinced of mel and jace as a couple as well... so my brain automatically went ah yes a bi polycule.
I also do this for wicked. Usually fiyero is my least favorite plot point in the play version of wicked and i tend to think his romance with both leading ladies is... definitely cannon, but ugh. But i actually liked the flirtyness between the movie version of fiyero and elphaba this time. And so I strongly go to elphaba has chemistry with more than one gender. Therefore, she is bi, and we could totally have a polycule!!! Sometimes, i find dismissals of a heterosexual couple as comp het to be as unbelievable as the homosexual couple is just close friends. And i'm just like WHAT IF BOTH???? And then my hc automatically goes to what if everyone was just okay with the fact that different types of relationships are cool and you can feel romantic and other love for more than one person and you are still important in that persons life and they form healthy communication necessary for a healthy polycule??? Why must we push for one thing when we could be forming many polycules!!!!!!
Which category is it when you ascend to the astral plane with your best friend?
But in all seriousness, I appreciate your analysis and I like Viktor even more now.
Never clocked Victor as ace while watching, and i dont assume they are just because they dont have or dont persue romantic or sexual relationships with other characters in the story.
As far as the discord... Yea not surprised.
I'm not surprised that Viktor is asexual. I didn't catch that from the show, but I definitely caught on that he wasn't romantically interested in anyone.
this is really interesting! i (ace person) personally really like jayvik, and i do think they have something going on whether its a romantic/allo relationship or a qpr. for me at the beginning of this discussion i've wondered about the 'disabled character is ace' trope/stereotype when it came out that the creator wanted viktor to be ace? idk if anyone has any thoughts on this i'd be interested to know, because on the one hand, ace rep is necessary and great if viktor is canonly ace coz he's my favourite character, but at the same time i know that disabled people often get desexualised and so having a disabled character who is also ace might be a bit tropey/stereotypey?
watched the first season and I was like "these two have a very sweet complex friendship... the internets gonna ruin it with shipping arent they." Given the fact that the 'seeing victor as ace is homophobic" discourse leaves zero room for the fact that league has gay characters and relationships including within this show and also is based ont he idea that if he is ace he cannot be gay, which implies the only thing people care about is writing smut about them... nevermind the fact that people say it was only said because the creator was homophobic and hated jayvik shippers, leaving no room for the idea that, if he thought this character was full aroace that is also a reason he might be frustrated with the shipping that his intentions didn't come across... also side note but league does have other gay characters, niko is lesbian and varus is 2/3 a gay couple
the thing with ppl calling it homophobic when fans state the fact that jayce and viktor's relationship is canonically/objectively platonic, is that, sure, in a different context, in a different piece of media, the same portrayal could easily be interpreted and intended as romantic subtext, or queerbaiting, etc, but here that is so clearly not the case. caitvi are the main pairing of the series, as explicitly and canonically gay as can be; there are NO stakes about gay representation. so in this context, insisting on the idea that their relationship is romantic is necessarily just aphobia. it's purely the idea of "there is no platonic explanation for this" "platonic friendships can't be that deep, it has to be -more- romantic". (obviously shipping characters is a different matter and not inherently problematic. there's a difference bw shipping x ship and recognizing what is canon)
not to mention the often seen idea that a character being aro/ace or a relationship being platonic, as opposed to their imagined alternative, gay, is homophobic and "taking away / erasing gay representation" (important: when the canon isn't even gay in the first place! or is even literally canonically aspec!), but they never consider the other way around being aphobic and taking away / erasing aspec representation. this double-standard always makes it so obvious that they never think about aspec people or their experiences and struggles, do not give a rat's ass about them or aspec representation and don't consider it an identity that matters in any way
but on the other hand, personally the only part of the discourse i've seen is _aspec_ _people_ who see it as bad representation motivated by homophobia, and who are disappointed in this word-of-god asexuality and interpret it as that creator seeing viktor as ace because of his whole 'machine, inhuman' thing (which tbf while i haven't seen the livestream myself, makes sense to me. like it isn't hard to imagine that even if he was well intenioned, when he thought of "hmm which character would be asexual?", the one who's defined by his lack of attachment and feelings towards other people is the one that popped up and worked precisely bc of those reasons... i disagree that making viktor asexual was part of his humanization in arcane in any way. imo they rather saw him as asexual bc of all his inhuman traits, and it just so happens that that implies that he was asexual when human too. which was never shown anyway.), and that the reason he brought it up was to shut down jayvik shipping, out of homophobia. this second part doesn't make sense to me tho, like if a character's canon orientation doesn't match a ship, it makes sense and it's normal to point it out and be like "actually this character is x", regardless of what the orientation or ship is... but again it depends on the context and i haven't seen the livestram so i don't know it
I remember saying that I felt like the JayVik ship was erasing asexuality, and getting dogged on over it. It was completely unnecessary, and a bunch of people called it homophobic that the people behind the show called Viktor ace. It drove me crazy.
Yes. The extremely homophobic show that [checking me notes...]
Has two lesbians that survive to the end and are canonically a couple now.
Hm. Yes.
Personally I like JayVik, but i see it more queer platonic anyway. That may be very much because I myself am disabled and aroace and a scientist (and slavic) so I could have projected *really* hard on Victor from the moment he appeared on screen.
As for the initial point: arguably, people who call the asexual erasure of a-spec characters (in fanon AND canon) homophobic are the people actively erasing asexuality. But that's just my hot take
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ace people can be homo romantic so idk how jayvik would erase asexuality. this is coming from a ace person btw