Emma, you pretty much nailed the Star Pass. Since it comes up a lot, here's a little more context for those who are interested. In roller derby, there's one player on each team called the Jammer. They have a sleeve over their helmet with a star on it. They're the only offensive player, and they score points by overtaking the defensive players on the opposite team, so they're like the Imp on Trouble Brewing. Among the rest of the team, there's a player called the Pivot, who is like a defensive captain or Minion. The Jammer can pass their star sleeve to the Pivot, and make them the Jammer, just like the Imp can kill themselves and make a Minion the Imp. Hope that helps!
Something y'all didn't mention about Vortox is how effective the alternate win condition can be when utilized properly, especially on the base script where Witch/TC/FG provide perfect cover. Evilling is hard as it is, but there's been so many games I've watched that have gone down to F7-F8 (or even on a messy D1!) where the first nominations have failed or tied, leaving only evil left alive who haven't nominated in a Vortox game and because they haven't been counting nominations, they often end up making a nomination that passes, only to have the game solved as a Vortox game in F5-F3 and lose. It's extremely hard in the moment to tell your minion "Tie this" during a pivotal nomination and is somewhat dependent on seating order, but if you watch any vortox game there's I swear there's like a 50% chance a situation like this comes up: 2 evils left in F5, the first good nomination gets no votes, second good nomination gets a minimum of 3, and the final good nom fails. Evil can now nominate a clockwise corpse and force a tie with a deadvote, immediately winning. It's very, very hard to identify in the moment, but it happens so much. One of these days a strong evil team is going to work out some phrase beforehand for "tie this", it's going to be posted on youtube, and everyone's going to realize how crazy it is. The alt-win is usually seen as "a little something extra to punish groups that refuse to kill" - but it might as well read "Every tied vote auto-nominates a Saint". Just that simple rephrasing should show how powerful it can be, so long as you're able to spot those situations. Just adding my two cents onto why Vortox can be one of the more strategically demanding (and rewarding) baddies - it's often seen as a 'weaker' demon, but I fully agree that it has more depth than people give it credit.
I agree with this whole line of reasoning. I had meant to discuss evil forcing Vortox wins through ties and lack of voting around 6 players alive, but we moved on. I’m think I’ve only seen evil convince good that it’s not a Vortox and win once or twice, but that’s a very rare play as well. Both are considerations for Vortox as well for certain.
it's so weird seeing Fang-Gu share a tier with Tinker - to me, all Demons who pick kills have fundamentally more strategically depth than basically all of the Outsiders (besides Damsel?). Being the player who the opposite team needs to kill & being in charge of who dies & who gets framed based on people's claims & social reads & town's trust in them, is, on its own just a lot of interesting decision making even without the "extra abilities" that Demons have. like if a Demon read "Each night*, choose a player: they die" id say that's already a high A or S on its own
Yeah I’m not sure we can be consistent between character types in terms of what the tier list looks like. Maybe I should clear out the previous tiers: a B-tier Outsider is significantly different from a B-tier minion. The problem is that compared to non-demons most demons are probably A- or S-Tier which doesn’t make for an interesting video. So they aren’t really equivalent.
@@milkmanofdeath i think that's completely fair - it's mostly about the ordering within each character type (eg Pukka has more depth than Shabaloth is definitely true for the reasons discussed). it looking bit weird with multiple character types combined together isn't really a criticism just an observation.
Zombuul D tier.. it just isn't fun most of the time. It's interesting and its presence on bmr makes it interesting sometimes even when it's a different demon.. but it just isn't fun usually. For the demon or for anyone else. Especially with like 15 player games. Great episode as always!!
Reminds me of the only BMR game that I played in that felt bad to win I was the Tea Lady sitting between the MasterMind and Zombuul Day 1 we tried me on the Zombuul, killing them the first time Night 2, obviously no deaths Day 2, We double tap the Zombuul, because no death happened, this rules out Zombuul and gives a Po no where to hide (unless they sink multiple kills into 1 dead body ofc) if it charged while keeping more players alive to prevent a massive murder night ending the game immediately. This kills the Zombuul for real. Night 3, No deaths as the Demon is dead Day 3, as there were no deaths, this might be a Mastermind day, so just to be safe, We execute the Zombuul *again* because we know that this execution cannot lose Good the game, as if this really is a Mastermind day, this *must be* the Demon In conclusion, we straight up triple tapped a Zombuul before they ever got a chance to *do anything* That really felt and continues to feel bad, I don't like that we kept them from using their ability at all and by triple tapping it felt to them like it's targeted We talked about it reassuring them that it wasn't about them as a person and that we're sorry that this was just the logical path for Good to take in that situation
Maybe a future video can be done on Vortox? I find Vortox gets solved a lot and having to just sell Vortox right away. I’d like to see some strategies yall use as I find selling not Vortox in a Vortox game incredibly difficult.
I personally put Vortox in C or D. The threat does more for other demons but Vortox almost always gets solved which limits strategy in how you bluff. I know blasphemy. You have to be so deliberate if trying to sell anything else it seems not worth it. Therefore strategy wise I find less choice. It’s a good demon and I love it too, but other things seem to have more choice to me.
I find with Fang Gu jumping early works better on N2/N3 if they’re claiming a bluff I can jump to them, let them keep claiming the bluff. Or I like jumping to the drunk. Then the fang gu can be hidden. Jumping after fang gu is found to me seems more difficult. If I have to jump late it’s there. I love having control as the demon but I think fang gu loves losing that control. I almost prefer other demons for that reason. Imp keeps it but fang gu you kinda have to alter strategy hard.
Emma, you pretty much nailed the Star Pass. Since it comes up a lot, here's a little more context for those who are interested.
In roller derby, there's one player on each team called the Jammer. They have a sleeve over their helmet with a star on it. They're the only offensive player, and they score points by overtaking the defensive players on the opposite team, so they're like the Imp on Trouble Brewing.
Among the rest of the team, there's a player called the Pivot, who is like a defensive captain or Minion. The Jammer can pass their star sleeve to the Pivot, and make them the Jammer, just like the Imp can kill themselves and make a Minion the Imp. Hope that helps!
Good to know lol
Once your tier lists are done, run each tier as their own scripts to see which tier is truly the best.
D and S tier alone probably wouldn't be full scripts, so let's combine both S and D tier and see what happens
@@heylolp9😂 What could go wrong?
@@milkmanofdeath Nothing, it's going to be one of the scripts of all time
Name suggestion: Strategic Depth
“Strategic depth” is definitely going to be the name of the script that has all our highest tier characters ;)
Something y'all didn't mention about Vortox is how effective the alternate win condition can be when utilized properly, especially on the base script where Witch/TC/FG provide perfect cover.
Evilling is hard as it is, but there's been so many games I've watched that have gone down to F7-F8 (or even on a messy D1!) where the first nominations have failed or tied, leaving only evil left alive who haven't nominated in a Vortox game and because they haven't been counting nominations, they often end up making a nomination that passes, only to have the game solved as a Vortox game in F5-F3 and lose.
It's extremely hard in the moment to tell your minion "Tie this" during a pivotal nomination and is somewhat dependent on seating order, but if you watch any vortox game there's I swear there's like a 50% chance a situation like this comes up: 2 evils left in F5, the first good nomination gets no votes, second good nomination gets a minimum of 3, and the final good nom fails. Evil can now nominate a clockwise corpse and force a tie with a deadvote, immediately winning.
It's very, very hard to identify in the moment, but it happens so much. One of these days a strong evil team is going to work out some phrase beforehand for "tie this", it's going to be posted on youtube, and everyone's going to realize how crazy it is. The alt-win is usually seen as "a little something extra to punish groups that refuse to kill" - but it might as well read "Every tied vote auto-nominates a Saint". Just that simple rephrasing should show how powerful it can be, so long as you're able to spot those situations.
Just adding my two cents onto why Vortox can be one of the more strategically demanding (and rewarding) baddies - it's often seen as a 'weaker' demon, but I fully agree that it has more depth than people give it credit.
Yeah that’s a fair point- the alt win con is something we should have discussed
I agree with this whole line of reasoning. I had meant to discuss evil forcing Vortox wins through ties and lack of voting around 6 players alive, but we moved on. I’m think I’ve only seen evil convince good that it’s not a Vortox and win once or twice, but that’s a very rare play as well. Both are considerations for Vortox as well for certain.
Demons :) this should be quite devilish.
Happy Wednesday everyone!
HAPPY WEDNESDAY!!!!
A little surprised at where Vortox landed, but 🤷it was an entertaining discussion!
it's so weird seeing Fang-Gu share a tier with Tinker - to me, all Demons who pick kills have fundamentally more strategically depth than basically all of the Outsiders (besides Damsel?). Being the player who the opposite team needs to kill & being in charge of who dies & who gets framed based on people's claims & social reads & town's trust in them, is, on its own just a lot of interesting decision making even without the "extra abilities" that Demons have. like if a Demon read "Each night*, choose a player: they die" id say that's already a high A or S on its own
Yeah I’m not sure we can be consistent between character types in terms of what the tier list looks like. Maybe I should clear out the previous tiers: a B-tier Outsider is significantly different from a B-tier minion. The problem is that compared to non-demons most demons are probably A- or S-Tier which doesn’t make for an interesting video. So they aren’t really equivalent.
@@milkmanofdeath i think that's completely fair - it's mostly about the ordering within each character type (eg Pukka has more depth than Shabaloth is definitely true for the reasons discussed). it looking bit weird with multiple character types combined together isn't really a criticism just an observation.
Zombuul D tier.. it just isn't fun most of the time. It's interesting and its presence on bmr makes it interesting sometimes even when it's a different demon.. but it just isn't fun usually. For the demon or for anyone else. Especially with like 15 player games. Great episode as always!!
Reminds me of the only BMR game that I played in that felt bad to win
I was the Tea Lady sitting between the MasterMind and Zombuul
Day 1 we tried me on the Zombuul, killing them the first time
Night 2, obviously no deaths
Day 2, We double tap the Zombuul, because no death happened, this rules out Zombuul and gives a Po no where to hide (unless they sink multiple kills into 1 dead body ofc) if it charged while keeping more players alive to prevent a massive murder night ending the game immediately.
This kills the Zombuul for real.
Night 3, No deaths as the Demon is dead
Day 3, as there were no deaths, this might be a Mastermind day, so just to be safe, We execute the Zombuul *again* because we know that this execution cannot lose Good the game, as if this really is a Mastermind day, this *must be* the Demon
In conclusion, we straight up triple tapped a Zombuul before they ever got a chance to *do anything*
That really felt and continues to feel bad, I don't like that we kept them from using their ability at all and by triple tapping it felt to them like it's targeted
We talked about it reassuring them that it wasn't about them as a person and that we're sorry that this was just the logical path for Good to take in that situation
@@heylolp9 lmao.. triple tapping the demon early .. that didn't feel good. yea, screw that!
Maybe a future video can be done on Vortox? I find Vortox gets solved a lot and having to just sell Vortox right away. I’d like to see some strategies yall use as I find selling not Vortox in a Vortox game incredibly difficult.
I personally put Vortox in C or D. The threat does more for other demons but Vortox almost always gets solved which limits strategy in how you bluff. I know blasphemy. You have to be so deliberate if trying to sell anything else it seems not worth it. Therefore strategy wise I find less choice. It’s a good demon and I love it too, but other things seem to have more choice to me.
I find with Fang Gu jumping early works better on N2/N3 if they’re claiming a bluff I can jump to them, let them keep claiming the bluff. Or I like jumping to the drunk. Then the fang gu can be hidden. Jumping after fang gu is found to me seems more difficult. If I have to jump late it’s there. I love having control as the demon but I think fang gu loves losing that control. I almost prefer other demons for that reason. Imp keeps it but fang gu you kinda have to alter strategy hard.
How does a zombul lose a kill to a minstrel? If the minion died the previous day, the zombul doesnt get a kill anyways
Good point idk what we were saying. Much worse the zombuul can just die to the minstrel
@@emmacone-roddy762 oh yea! Thats an interesting interaction!
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