TNT31203 I did this too when I was a kid, It wasn't for fighting game though. I did it when I played old 2ds sonic games and this zombie game called Zombies ate my Neighbors, to see the picture by picture (I didn't know what it was called back then so I called it that). I used it so I could see the details in the animation because they move so fast that you cant see then that well normally playing the game.
Wow this guy is a genius. In that year I was just barely playing with my friends with items for fun. We also thought Fox was the best character in the entire series, but not that broken like he is currently (SS Tier)
Just randomly thought "I wonder how M2k counted framedata during the GameCube days before TH-cam". Wow, I didn't expect this method. True scientist at heart.
I wonder if this video played a factor for the dev team for Ultimate to include a frame by frame setting in practice mode, or at least heard of such methods on various forums over the years. Good stuff M2K!
This is really cool and well done and explained. Awesome video for a one shot unedited explanation too. But the thing I find most fascinating... The way he says "uhver" .... Um.. "Other" The TH sound turns into a V, I've never heard that in my life.
We need a FULL documentary (dramatized if possible) with your quest though frame date to make the docs and then applying them... sounds like one of those things that Netflix takes that sound boring but end up a very intense and focused adventure.
I wonder if the complex stuff goes like this: ex fox spotdodge is x frames so use two or three different animations in a row from two or three characters pausing perfectly between them to get the spotdodge data
Wierd when i was a kid and I didn't know the competitive scene existed, I compared everything to foxes shine. I'd jab and and do foxes shine at the same time and test how fast moves were. Not frame data but just moves speed. But I also discovered crouch cancelling because I thought ness was the only one who could do it because he put his hands on his head when he crouches. Then I got into Roy and found out I could hold down and smash down tilt to fsmash.
If I was older when Melee was becoming a thing. I would of found frame data by recording all the characters moves hitting other characters on a VCR, then skip toward a little bit and analyze the animation hitting the other character, that's what I would do but hey, its much easier now a days.
13 year olds could really make money easily back in the day to buy stuff. Also, parent's might not buy that stuff. Finally, M2K didn't know that he could use Game Genie for that?
It's useful to theory craft your options. For example, with fox's down air on shield the opponent get out of shield-stun 6 frames before fox gets out of landing lag. Grab hitbox comes out on frame 7, and shine hitbox/invincibility is on frame 1. This means that fox can safely down air -> L cancel -> shine on shield before the opponent can grab him. If fox down-airs -> Uptilt on shield the opponent can shield grab him because up tilt comes out on frame 5. (This is an example, sorry if any of my actual frame data is wrong, but you get the concept)
Iris You don't 'apply' frame data. Once you the know the frame data of all the moves of a specific character you will know how to go about using those moves safely.Then all you have to do is use that knowledge to best play your main. A simple example would be Sheik's chain. Why doesn't anyone use that move on stage? Well, that's because many characters can just hop over you and punish. You might be thinking: "Just release chain and punish them for trying to get in". And this is where the knowledge comes in. Pulling in chain isn't the fastest animation in the world so there is no possible way for you to react to your opponent's approach and release it and get the turn on them or even shield. So, knowing this animation takes forever makes the move unviable. That was an example of cooldown. What about startup? There are many viable moves in Melee but not every hitbox comes out instantaneously as soon as you hit the button. Maybe it comes out on frame 12and if that's the case that means I can react and intercept with a move that comes out much sooner. That is why it is important to know your own main's frame data and also the one of your opponent. Sorry for writing an entire Bible for you ^-^''
okay this is the first time ive seen this on youtube and it says there's only 3 comments on this vid when there are clearly more than that. what is going on?
1/4 slows the game but so does animation if im not wrong, sakurai explained that slowmo on smash kept the game at 60fps on the animation, so a 1 frame move will still be 1 frame on the animation but the real frame data will be longer
This is probably a dumb question, but why is it so important to figure out frames? I feel like it doesn't help knowing the exact frames in the moment as you subconsciously can tell a moves speed in your head as u see it used anyways.
***** it's not "built in" to faster melee's dolphin build. And faster melee is not being used in this video. M2K doesn't use faster melee. Also, the code isn't outdated, iirc it's the same ar code that gets downloaded by dolphin when you do that
I think it would make it more difficult to count the actual framedata for normal speed, because 1/4 doesn't just cut things out frame by frame, it fills animation that wouldn't be there during normal gameplay
he is explaining how he figured out just how fast moves were done. 1 frame = 1/60th of a second so shiek's jab hits the enemy in 2/60th of a second while ganon's is one frame slower. 3/60th of a second.
I wonder if the complex stuff goes like this: ex fox spotdodge is x frames so use two or three different animations in a row from two or three characters pausing perfectly between them to get the spotdodge data
Mew2King: "I can check if this was frame one or frame two by......"
Mango: "I go full YOLO"
back then he was M2Prince
Jesus christ. Mew2king is so smart. So clever and so persistent as well.
Andre Yutiamco lol kotu
Psychoace lol goe
It's not a lie when people say that Mew2King knows everything about the game.
The knowledge he gave this gamea community is the very reason he is my favorite top player
Wow, did he actually do this for over 2k hours, m2k is meta god.
ChrisChaosTF2 over M2K hours.
How did you think to do that when you were just a little mew2king little2king
mew2kid
TNT31203 I did this too when I was a kid, It wasn't for fighting game though. I did it when I played old 2ds sonic games and this zombie game called Zombies ate my Neighbors, to see the picture by picture (I didn't know what it was called back then so I called it that). I used it so I could see the details in the animation because they move so fast that you cant see then that well normally playing the game.
NIneDJcali Zombies ate my Neighbours is great
It's not that hard to think of. Kids are pretty smart and creative, especially about things that they really like.
^^^
I would never have done that as a kid. Wouldn't even do it now.
2002 back in the beautiful worry free days
This is why I love M2K. He's a scientist, I'm a scientist, everything is great.
i also love m2k... as a crappy segway into a self compliment
O
Balance
Wow this guy is a genius. In that year I was just barely playing with my friends with items for fun. We also thought Fox was the best character in the entire series, but not that broken like he is currently (SS Tier)
Just randomly thought "I wonder how M2k counted framedata during the GameCube days before TH-cam". Wow, I didn't expect this method. True scientist at heart.
This is like when Archimedes calculated the the first 3 digits of Pi
He's a mad scientist of melee.
I was just gonna say that
these videos are amazing
I wonder if this video played a factor for the dev team for Ultimate to include a frame by frame setting in practice mode, or at least heard of such methods on various forums over the years. Good stuff M2K!
This is really cool and well done and explained. Awesome video for a one shot unedited explanation too.
But the thing I find most fascinating... The way he says "uhver" .... Um.. "Other"
The TH sound turns into a V, I've never heard that in my life.
I'm guessing you're talking about 1:20. I hear "other" not "uhver".
Brain-washed yea it's a pretty common sort of lisp, r lisps and s lisps are pretty common too
Hella Speed 2:37, and many more
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't he say Marf too? I don't know if I always here it that way or not. But yea, great video!
It's probably just a speech thing, as M2K talks quietly and quickly, but maybe he's somehow developing a south London accent
Thanks for this upload. Was planning a trip to 2002, so this should come in handy.
Mad respect for M2K
We need a FULL documentary (dramatized if possible) with your quest though frame date to make the docs and then applying them... sounds like one of those things that Netflix takes that sound boring but end up a very intense and focused adventure.
I love the wording of the title, it's basically suggesting time travel.
This was really cool to see. Great video.
Yung2King, the frame god
Love this stuff! keep uploading m2k!
I wonder if the complex stuff goes like this: ex fox spotdodge is x frames so use two or three different animations in a row from two or three characters pausing perfectly between them to get the spotdodge data
he would have to know how long fox's spotdodge is first though
Nerd2King :P
I worship you.
Wierd when i was a kid and I didn't know the competitive scene existed, I compared everything to foxes shine. I'd jab and and do foxes shine at the same time and test how fast moves were. Not frame data but just moves speed. But I also discovered crouch cancelling because I thought ness was the only one who could do it because he put his hands on his head when he crouches. Then I got into Roy and found out I could hold down and smash down tilt to fsmash.
M2K is best nerd
My God! M2K i have always respect u as a "God" in Smash Meele/Brawl (i'm not into SSB4). But this is amazing and all your work M2K!!
Just Amaziing
King of the Nerds
Long live goe
long live kotu
That's insane dude.
This is absolutely fascinating. What a brilliant and painstaking mind.
This is how he made a living playing video games. Legend
m2k the genius
If m2k never shared the data he could’ve easily been the goat of melee
And I still don't know how to clean spilled milk
I've always wondered what Prog was talking about
Boi, you put in work! Impressive, and thank you.
M2nerd
Genius2King Kreygasm
really enjoy your videos m2k. Don't see a lot of smashers posting vids on TH-cam anymore
this is how Zelda was able to sneak out at night for those late night Link rendezvous
Mew2King invented Mewing. He was the first to discover its a 2 frame process.
The move isn’t even truly 2 frames if we’re being honest, but in Smash I guess that’s how it’s measured.
Wow, that's actually really interesting!
Ganon's face at 1:27
If I was older when Melee was becoming a thing. I would of found frame data by recording all the characters moves hitting other characters on a VCR, then skip toward a little bit and analyze the animation hitting the other character, that's what I would do but hey, its much easier now a days.
Jakanoid vhs tapes aren't 60 fps
+Something exactly
The amount of dedication...
I'm a CS major and just watching this being done is driving me insane.
Baby2King
crimson blur questions why m2k didnt just use game genie
Sealosss 13 year old
Cameron Lui ?
13 year olds could really make money easily back in the day to buy stuff. Also, parent's might not buy that stuff. Finally, M2K didn't know that he could use Game Genie for that?
wish the followup video would come
M2K practicing the scientific method.
THIS IS INSANE
I want a video teaching me how to apply frame data into my gameplay or why this is useful
Iris it explains itself. If your move is faster than your opponents, you will hit them before they can hit you.
It's useful to theory craft your options. For example, with fox's down air on shield the opponent get out of shield-stun 6 frames before fox gets out of landing lag. Grab hitbox comes out on frame 7, and shine hitbox/invincibility is on frame 1. This means that fox can safely down air -> L cancel -> shine on shield before the opponent can grab him. If fox down-airs -> Uptilt on shield the opponent can shield grab him because up tilt comes out on frame 5. (This is an example, sorry if any of my actual frame data is wrong, but you get the concept)
Iris You don't 'apply' frame data. Once you the know the frame data of all the moves of a specific character you will know how to go about using those moves safely.Then all you have to do is use that knowledge to best play your main. A simple example would be Sheik's chain. Why doesn't anyone use that move on stage? Well, that's because many characters can just hop over you and punish. You might be thinking: "Just release chain and punish them for trying to get in". And this is where the knowledge comes in. Pulling in chain isn't the fastest animation in the world so there is no possible way for you to react to your opponent's approach and release it and get the turn on them or even shield. So, knowing this animation takes forever makes the move unviable. That was an example of cooldown. What about startup? There are many viable moves in Melee but not every hitbox comes out instantaneously as soon as you hit the button. Maybe it comes out on frame 12and if that's the case that means I can react and intercept with a move that comes out much sooner. That is why it is important to know your own main's frame data and also the one of your opponent. Sorry for writing an entire Bible for you ^-^''
I'm really interested to learn how you did this for moves that require multiple button inputs on two controllers at once.
im guessing he didn't
Daniel Price he had a friend to do this sometimes
Aliens gave him spotdodge data
So how did Salem do it?
okay this is the first time ive seen this on youtube and it says there's only 3 comments on this vid when there are clearly more than that. what is going on?
why not use 1/4 speed on training mode so it's 15 fps, more than doable
You can't freeze the game by pausing in training mode.
Cedric Bautista ohhh yeah forgot, thanks
However slower melee in special vs was an option.
I'm pretty sure melee interpolates animations when slowed down though, so there would actually be more unique frames to count.
1/4 slows the game but so does animation
if im not wrong, sakurai explained that slowmo on smash kept the game at 60fps on the animation, so a 1 frame move will still be 1 frame on the animation but the real frame data will be longer
wtf thats just genious
What ever happened to the follow up video? I searched all of MVG league's channel but couldn't find it.
This is probably a dumb question, but why is it so important to figure out frames? I feel like it doesn't help knowing the exact frames in the moment as you subconsciously can tell a moves speed in your head as u see it used anyways.
Poor M2K. Someone should have bought him an Action Replay when he was that age. It would have saved him soooooo much time.
You're amazing.
How to test frame data in 2002 in 2017
This is awesome
would Training mode have been helpful with the varied speeds?
No, you can't pause in training.
Do u still have any of the original notebooks?
how do you get melee widescreen like that in Dolphin?
nate alarcon There is an option in the menu called "force wide screen" or somehing like that
That causes clipping issues, use this AR code for true 16:9 support. smashboards.com/threads/code-16-9-widescreen-support.323870/
Master_ZEEC mushroom taco Thanks!
***** it's not "built in" to faster melee's dolphin build. And faster melee is not being used in this video. M2K doesn't use faster melee.
Also, the code isn't outdated, iirc it's the same ar code that gets downloaded by dolphin when you do that
tactzer0 sure buddy
Does that same method work with other Smash games???
Couldn't you just set the time-step in Training Mode?
this is damn clever.
Jeeeez.
This seems pretty complicated. I just counted the frames lol
Lol I wonder if he ever used 1/4 speed in training mode, that would probably make things a tad easier.
I think it would make it more difficult to count the actual framedata for normal speed, because 1/4 doesn't just cut things out frame by frame, it fills animation that wouldn't be there during normal gameplay
You also can't pause in training mode
Insanneeeee
m2kid!
I really dont know whats he's talking about
he is explaining how he figured out just how fast moves were done. 1 frame = 1/60th of a second so shiek's jab hits the enemy in 2/60th of a second while ganon's is one frame slower. 3/60th of a second.
...
ditch this thumbnail font tho. thank you
lol
lolm2k
lol m2kid
LOL 1 DISLIKE
1st comment
I wonder if the complex stuff goes like this: ex fox spotdodge is x frames so use two or three different animations in a row from two or three characters pausing perfectly between them to get the spotdodge data