It would be interesting to see the Type C with the wing, plus modern tyres and modern brakes. And maybe we could get to see what that beast will accomplish against moderns cars in a modern track?
Basically, just get a modern F1 car, and plonk the V16 engine, and probably also gearbox, in it. Modern, wheels, suspensions, chassis, brakes, and wings, coupled with the engine's power, torque and response...
Dear Lord... just watching a simulation of a 1930's car is terrifying. I love everything about this video, from the fun "what if" scenario, the excellent commentary, and lack of stupid music. Hats off to you, sir.
My thoughts on the subject is this: I think they would benefit from wings, but only slightly, especially with those tires and suspensions. And the downsides outweight the upsides... There's a reason why the 1930s is arguably called the "Golden Era of Grand Prix racing". There were several design breakthroughs that were, at times, so far ahead of the technology of the time, at times, we can be sure that they don't know the full extent of the potential of their designs! The cars were powerful and fast, and the tires became an extremely important consideration. Tires were a limiting factor to the performance of those machines. As we know, they were cross-ply design, and were pretty narrow. Now, we knew that that's not really ideal, but it is a combination of they don't really know that at the time, and the technology of the time could only allow them to do such. The tires also use canvas for its casings, and natural rubber. Synthetic rubber had been around by then, but it is still very new, and expensive to make, so it is ultimately not used on those racing tires. Thanks to the design and materials used, those tires were, consequently, pretty sensitive to heat, on fast tracks such as Mellaha (Tripoli) and AVUS, for example, it would be better if new tires were to be carefully run in before pushing, or else, they would literally disintegrate in just a few laps. But, I think it is very hard to be careful with new tires, considering that they had to deal with, at times, more than 400hp, and bags and bags of torque. The width of those tires means that there's not much lateral grip to get from them. An engineer friend of mine said that according to some sources, those cross-plies could only handle about 1g of cornering load before slipping. Also, thanks to the varied road surfaces of the track of the time, roadholding is a important thing to consider, and with all the bumpy and uneven surfaces, they tend to use soft suspensions (soft when compared to today's racing cars). The cars themselves were designed to slide around the corners, using the inherent lack of grip of the tires to, ironically, make it 'round the bends in the fastest way possible. So, okay, putting wings on them, I think, would cause the suspension to bottom out a lot, and also increase the grip, but not much. The one thing they might do, is to drastically increase heat buildup on those 1930s tires and make their life shorter. As a final thing, I think I would like to end with a piece I remembered reading somewhere. Eng. Robert Eberan-Eberhorst, the designer of the Auto Union Type D, later recalled that "if only they had those mid-1960s-era tires to fit in the D Type back then..."
The paradigm of grip was very different. It had almost more to do with motocross or flat track bikes than with today's cars. Lateral friction was not achievable. The suspension and the whole geometry with wild cambers was such that the car would be kinda trying to dig the tire into the surface to get forwards traction. Correctly stated that the surface of racetracks was nothing like today. It was either hard concrete, or it was very rough bitumen-bound rubbish, more like a glued gravel rather than asphalt as we know it now. On these softer surfaces, the narrow and hard tires got a good bite. It is almost like thrust pointing backwards, and angling it with the whole car.
That Type C, though - when I've mastered that car, I'll know I've learned Assetto Corsa. You have to respect it at every turn, you need your concentration at 100% for the entirety of the time you're 'at the wheel'. It's so unforgiving of the slightest mistake...yet an absolute pleasure to drive when you're on your game. Too much understeer, surprise oversteer when you least expect it, sometimes it likes accelerating quickly, sometimes not, some things change but one thing stays the same - it always wants to kill you!
That's the thing with the Auto Unions. They're not the easiest thing to drive. The driver sits so far in front, that it's very hard to gauge how much sideways you're getting. And with those cross-ply tires, it gets sideways so easily. Even back in the day, not many drivers could get their heads around it, only some of the most daring drivers of the time could really push them hard. One thing of note, though, some of the most successful pilots of the Auto Unions were Bernd Rosemeyer, Tazio Nuvolari, and Achille Varzi, all three of them were former motorcycle racers. That probably had something to do with it...
@@sean-fw7zi Is there a quality W125 mod for Assetto Corsa? I've tried one, but it is much easier to drive than Kunos' 250F, and in no way comparable to the Type C's quality.
At 90mph you are definitely benefiting from the downforce. While testing on Miatas, difference between ones with and ones without wings was pretty big on tracks with average speeds under 80mph. Formula student cars usually don't even get close to 60mph and all competetive ones run extreme aero packages.
Formula student cars run such big wings and aero packages to make downforce at lower speeds. The lower the speed the more aggressive an aero package can be because you don’t have to worry about drag and yes downforce makes a difference even for slower cars, in a formula car you feel the downforce start to make a real difference around 70-75 mph, obviously the heavier the car and worse the aero thats gonna get higher but it still has a drastic effect on lap times
In updating the physics model, I didn't hear you mention drag. Just weight and downforce. Were you able to modify the drag function somehow to add wing drag into it? Seems not, because you actually hit a higher max speed with the wing than without it (162 with it, 160 without). I thought maybe your exit speed from the last corner might have been higher with the wing, but your speed under the bridge was 120mph in both cases - the same. This was really fun to watch. I had never seen this sim before. Thanks for the vid!
I noticed in the first lap, you were more or less guiding the car through the corner with the entire car. The second lap seemed like your steering input was more precise. I'm thinking for that track something more like a traditional F1 set up, or 60's/70's winglets and wing set up might have worked better. For several obvious reasons, all of which you have pretty much stated. But this was a very cool experiment. Very cool video.
Did you change any of the car's setup except the wing? I thought that it would allow you to stiffen the suspension a bit that would help counter the top weight roll in those early bends without becoming too skittish on other parts of the track. Great video overall though, thanks for all your usual excellent output. Also 6 secs on a 3:30 minute lap isn't a small improvement, that's almost 2 secs a minute and would normally take years of development to achieve.
In AC the auto union is the craziest death machine ever developed for racing, but… the engine is one of the coldest sounding ever! Bruce Mclaren is the racing God.
Man your channel is so underrated, how come you have "only" 30k subs? The quality of the content is amazing and even i with 30 years as a car and racing fan and working in the busines learn something new almost every video i watch. Keep it up, this channel with explode earlier or later!
I feel like the 6 seconds that you went fester is a bit skewed. The lap with the wing had some clearly faster lines. I think 3 seconds is more representable
Smokey Yunick put a wing on his Indycar in 1963 and says in his autobiography that Colin Chapman studied it intensely. I've always placed that car as the start of the wing wars.
Great video, loved the thought behind it. There was a version of the Type-C which had double rear wheels which was used for hillclimbing, I wonder if the downforce along with the increased rear contact patch would have helped solve the loose rear end, especially at high speed.
Interesting experiment, would love to have seen the data for those laps! I know you doubted it's benefit in the first part of the lap, but I noted you were already 2-3 seconds up when you exited the corner with the pot-hole, so it seemed to have gained time fairly equally around the lap. I noted you were able to brake much later into the corners (almost trial braking style) and crucially, your accelerating out of every corner was much better! I know you will get the benefits of the downforce more at higher speeds (downforce is squared with speed essentially), but that extra mechanical weight certainly helped to grip up the wheels better! P.S. amazing introduction - the cinematics were lovely to look at!
Haha great video Jake. My thoughts are the height and weight of this wing would induce the car to be top heavy in fast corners. This would create more roll effectively lifting the inside wheels from the track and reducing overall grip. So sort of undoing what you were trying to do. I wonder if fitting a lower, lighter wing would have a different effect?
This is an interesting point. Would the force from the wing help self center and offset the extra body roll? ie. The wings force points into the corner with more body roll
Private racer invents wing and takes first in qualifying: gets banned Chaparral does it and only gets one win the whole season: WOW SO INNOVATIVE Like bruh cmon, way to give credit
I love the idea that the original wing could be dangerous in the event of a crash........... In a time when drivers sat on fuel tanks, while wearing no seatbelts or helmets, on tracks with spectators and trees right on the edge of the tracks!! Absolutely bizarre!! 😂😂😂
Another great study by professor Jake, keep'em coming please..... Love how at noon he changes his labcoat for a leather cap and goggles and trashes his creations around. Top dude, Top channel, Top entertainment....
Great vid, awesome idea. Now all wil be courious, what gain would give a proper channeled floor with huge diffuser 🤔?? Because there is a massive amount of room under the car body to attach slick spliter-side channels-diffuser assembly😁.
FYI at 14:38 when you read the time off, I'm assuming you got it from the clock you inserted in the top-right of the video? If so, the end numbers are the frame count, and since your footage is at 60 fps, the 48th frame is actually 48/60th's of a second, or 0.8
That makes me wonder, if the streamlined body of these cars would feature modern F1 aerodynamics, alongside the ground effect. Could the interwar Grand Prix cars compete with late 70s early 80s F1?
A ground effevt streamlimed chassis exists for the tyle C (the ground effect was accidental), and it was used in a land speed record attempt. It likely couldnt compete with 70s f1 because of the cross ply tires and drum breaks wearing out too quickly, but for a single hotlap, maybe. These machines were basically a century ahead of their time, and are insanely impressive, but also very umrefined.
that gap between knowing how to do it and it actually being implemented reminds me of solar panels. solar panels were invented in 1839 45 years before the internal combustion engine but it wasn't until like 2010 where it was actually being used everywhere.
How close the Germans were to discover the potential of downforce in the late 1930's? They actually discovered ground effect, and measured it in a windtunnel, but the engineers considered it a measuring error... The Auto-Union Type D slipstreamer for speed record runs was developed and prototyped in scale models to maximize stability, reduce lift, and minimize drag. One version in 1938 featured what we would call sideskirts today, and other unusually shaped body panels. This effectively sealed the floor and acted as a Venturi tunnel. They wanted more stability and less lift, and they accidentally got both through downforce. The model was measured in a windtunnel with zero lift. The rig was only set up to measure lift, not downforce. Rather than realizing that the measurement was correct, and that the model undid all of the natural lift and more, the measurement was seen as an error. At first look, they were not being too unreasonable - every single time before, they measured non-zero lift. Usually they struggled to keep the car on the ground at high speeds. Some models produced so much lift that they would take off, some would stay on the ground but unloading the wheels to varying extent, but no model ever produced downforce. Considering how brilliant and Germanly pedantic the engineers were, some of them with experience from airplane engineering, I would say that they were literally one shower-thought away from realizing what was actually going on with this model, measuring it again, and exploring it. This "accidental ground effect" version of the car was very stable in tests. And it had just a tiny but more drag than the conventional designs. So they made it in full scale and ran it in speed record attempts, without realizing what they were doing. That's the car Berndt Rosemeyer died in during a speed record run. Crosswind destabilized the car, some overloaded body panels probably sheared off, he could not catch the slide, and the car flew off the highway at a huge speed. The development of this version was discontinued. But in the midst of GP technical regulation changes between 1937 and 1938 (a switch from a maximum weight formula, to a minimum weight formula + engine displacement limit), and expected developments into the 1939 season (power-to-weight ratio was getting insane again), they had spare weight to play with. They actually considered running compact slipstreamers on some slower circuits. Porsche even submitted a viable design to Mercedes, you can find a blueprint scan under the name "Mercedes T90". With all of this, rather than strapping a wing on the car, they might have been pretty close to coming up with ground-effect slipstreamers. The next time ground effect was used, that time intentionally, was in 1960 on the insane Bluebird-Proteus CN7 land speed record vehicle, which is a story and a half in itself. And then Colin Chapman with Lotus 78, but that is a well-known history.
Good story... really good story, Jake! It's like a "back-to-the-future" movie of some kind.. really fascinating! Also to think, they were so close to put on the wing by real, back in the 1930!
Great video again. Great information, great entertainment and obvious passion are what makes these videos so great. But don't get me wrong I also enjoy watching you race. A lot. I hope the 66 season is still going.
Man, I love stuff like this! It is amazing that Assetto Corsa allows you to do these "what ifs" so realistically. But that also is a tribute to your modding skills, Jake. Thank you.
It would be interesting to see this car with wings attached directly to the unsprung mass, applying downforce to the wheels without causing any heave compression in the suspension.
I never was a road racing fan, growing up on nascar stock cars and all made me that way. However a mixture of an updated riverside on nr2003 and your videos make me enjoy the type of racing maybe just enough to taste some of it on sims.
Air brakes! Why don't you try adding them, instead of a fixed wing? They existed on WW2 planes. Hydraulics actuated. That would be a thing 😊. Thank you so much for your well crafted video and effort!
I know I'm a dinosaur, but Jochen Rindt wrote an open letter to the FIA back in '69/'70 via Autosport magazine in the UK asking them to ban wings because it was taking the skill out of racing. In fact after he won the German GP at Hockenheim in 1970 in the Lotus 72 he said "a monkey could have won in that car".
Wonderful video idea; it really makes you wonder why racecar designers didn't discover downforce sooner. My fave example: The Opel RAK rocket car program utilised simple wings, but primarily to keep the wheels on the ground at high speed. Most notable was the RAK 2, which reached 148 mph during a record run at AVUS in 1928 (only 60 mph off the land speed record at the time). A rocket-powered car with wings in the 1920s - it's still a futuristic idea 100 years later!
To my poor understanding, the wings were much more effective when the downforce was applied directly to the wheel hubs forcing the tires into heaver contact with the pavement, than when applied directly to the chassis. I claim no expertise in this manner, just seem to remember it by living through the early areo age and being fascinated by F1 and Can-Am race cars. Would you consider doing a follow up using a wing from a Chaparral?
I'm trying to have a break from sim racing but now you have made me need to go back to AC for a classic bit of fun, that track looks amazing. What graphic settings are you running for AC?
As usual a wonderful video, i never get enough of the historic context that you put in your productions. I think would be interesting doing something similar with another great breaktrough in motorsport, electronic aids, i'm curious to see what features like abs or slip control gave to racing cars in term of performance. Anyway, thank you!
You mad man....what have you done? In all seriousness I think lack of downforce with the old pre-war cars is the very least of the concerns. One word. BRAKES. Apparently back in the 30s actual brakes were optional. The Auto Unions had a top speed just north of 180mph in the 30s.....with a braking distance that was long enough that the U.K could scramble a flight of Spitfires before the Auto Unions would come to a stop from even 150mph. You sort of just vaguely suggest it slows down.
Very cool! :) I am thou skeptical of the modifications. The wing might look simple but it's still a result of many, many years of engineering. That thing produces massive downforce. With the amount of power the car has, and tightness of the track, drag means little. But just getting that much downforce in such a small package would not be as easy back then. Plus, knowing how AC does tyre load sensitivity, car in the video likely had a bit more grip than it would be possible with the tyres they had. If there is one thing studying both history and engineering taught me is that generally what we call today brilliant or revolutionary ideas were still just small increments back then. And engineers of old knew a lot more than it seems today. Most of them likely knew downforce would be good, but there would be many indirect reasons for the technology to adapt slowly. Also, when doing any reality check of car mods, downforce is the most common/biggest thing getting over exaggerated ;). Still, by virtue of "been there, done that" i appreciate the work that went into the video. Cheers!
Let's get the obvious out of the way first. The Auto Union Type C was never exactly the prettiest car, but with that wing, it looks like something of an abomination. Anyway, on the history front, a couple of notes to make: 1. The last Type C Streamliner Rosemeyer drove (the one he was killed in), is considered by some to be the first ground-effect car. 2. Though not specifically for downforce, the driver could operate a system to lift the deck lid on the 1955 Mercedes-Benz 300 SLR, allowing it to act as an air brake. Trying to compare apex speeds, and how well you can exit corners, I think the wing may help more than you think through a number of those medium-speed sections. And because you can exit corners better, you're often gaining 3-5 mph on the straights that follow. I think the largest mid-corner gain may be where you were doing 50-80 mph in the car without the wing, as odd as that might sound. But let's face it, beyond a point, the tires just don't have any more lateral grip to give. In any case, the wing seemed to help overall. It may be as you said, in making the car more predictable. And like I said, I think it helps on corner exit when putting the power down. The weight and downforce actually makes the car more planted. As others have said, maybe even with just 1960s tires, I think this could really be one hell of a beast, and scary fast, too. I suspect the wing might make the front-engined cars like the Mercedes W125 and Alfa 12C-36 understeer more. So the wing may help the Auto Union the most out of the bunch. And yeah, the specs of the base cars are impressive for the time: Auto Union Type C --- 6.0-liter supercharged V-16, 520 hp @ 5,000 rpm, 627 ft-lb @ 2,500 rpm Mercedes Benz W125 --- 5.7-liter supercharged S-8, 592 hp @ 5,800 rpm, 683 ft-lb @ 3,000 rpm Alfa Romeo 12C-36 --- 4.1-liter supercharged V-12, 360-370 hp @ 5,800 rpm, 450+ ft-lb @ n/a rpm (estimated torque) Alfa Romeo 12C-37 --- 4.5-liter supercharged V-12, 430 hp @ 5,800 rpm, 500+ ft-lb @ n/a rpm (estimated torque) This was another fun one, and maybe not a totally expected outcome in certain respects.
Dude wtf Broadbent who, 2min of you vid blows most you tubers out of the water absolutely awesome glad I stumbled onto it this is the way to do a TH-cam vid & with assetto truly wicked @wacoon I love everything about this video, from the fun "what if" scenario, the excellent commentary, and lack of stupid music. Hats off to you, sir. I COULDN'T AGREE MORE !!!!
PLEASE do the video on ISMA supermodifieds! They are the F1 of asphalt short tracks and there are halfway decent AC mods available for them and Oswego Speedway -their home track. (Oswego Speedway has an interesting place in American racing in itself.) They NEED to get some time in the spotlight.
Its interesting the Type-C and its rival the Mercedes W25 overtopped Fritz von Opel’s RAK rocket car run (238 kmph / 1928) which had mid-body inverted aero wings (negative lift) to keep it planted on the AVUS straight. It couldn’t make the banked turns as the rockets were fixed and the steering inputs were to keep the car straight over the bumps. I suspect because it wasn’t a wheel driven car, after its successful demonstration that project moved on to a rocket train and rocket aircraft, the focus of the racing teams may have been more on each other. Part of the trick was to get the wings over the axels, but the mid-body idea makes sense for a single wing set.
Glad they didn't have wings- spoils the looks of a beautiful car- the 60's Lotus was a perfect F1 car- Fat tires, you could see the driver, see the engine, beautiful streamlined body, killer paint job. Then they tacked on that awful wing- killed the car for me...
Beton actually is German for concrete and schleife means loop. thats why its called Betonschleife. Concrete Loop. Also it gets spelled with a longer O sound. As if you would say "Betone-schleife" another interesting experiment: the 2020 or 2021 F1 Car without any wings.
props for the editing. this is the first video I've watched from you and actually, I'll leave a sub here. also props for your german pronunciation (coming from a german)
Carbon fiber wings would be a different story. That would solve the weight issue. They had carbon fiber in the 19th century already. The materials were there, science of aerodynamics was there. But it would take several decades for modern wings to emerge.
what i wonder is .. is the wing placement are impacting on the car setup .. on this exemple the wing act like a front wing with majority of the downforce focusedd on the front tyre .. if you placed the wing at the back what would have changed ?? lighter direction ? more nimble? less bouncy ?? i would love to have your opinion. greetings from france.
Excellent video. How do you make these changes? What apps do you use? I guess this mod isn't approved by the original modders so you can't release for us to have a go
Its a fairly convoluted process of 3d editing and compiling and physics editing. I only really go so far to make it work enough for a video, so its missing things like ai, LOD models and such. Even if I had permission from Gary to share it I would have to work on it more first
That wing experiment is a cool idea but putting it above the driver almost as a roof is one of the worst possible places from the weight distribution perspective. So it doesn't only add weight. It raises the center of mass and these guys had an understanding of a mass distribution stuff, I mean that's one of the reasons for having the engine in the middle. I'd love to see a Mk2 design with something more similar to the first Lotus or Ferrari designs. Where the aero devices are kept lower. Such progression doesn't seem too far fetched for me.
You would of thought that once they had discovered that the wing concept worked, and that if you placed it in a favorable position longitudinally on the car, that they would of instantly realized if they had two wings and placed them fore and aft that they could tune the down force to their hearts content. But it seems they just stuck with one wing for ages. That baffles me.
Who do I have to talk to about making a racing sim, where you’re a car maker and you build race cars that’s starts in the 60s and works it way to modern times making cars for lamans
It would be interesting to see the Type C with the wing, plus modern tyres and modern brakes. And maybe we could get to see what that beast will accomplish against moderns cars in a modern track?
finally, E N H A N C E D Tin Can
I second this!
@@3DWorldMan P E R F E C T E D Tin Can
Basically, just get a modern F1 car, and plonk the V16 engine, and probably also gearbox, in it. Modern, wheels, suspensions, chassis, brakes, and wings, coupled with the engine's power, torque and response...
Winged sprint cars:
"Am I a joke to you?"
Dear Lord... just watching a simulation of a 1930's car is terrifying.
I love everything about this video, from the fun "what if" scenario, the excellent commentary, and lack of stupid music. Hats off to you, sir.
you may even play online with this mode. But in rFactor, AC is horrible.
Don’t listen to the guy above. Purists are insufferable. As is just fine and a lot cheaper
My thoughts on the subject is this:
I think they would benefit from wings, but only slightly, especially with those tires and suspensions. And the downsides outweight the upsides...
There's a reason why the 1930s is arguably called the "Golden Era of Grand Prix racing". There were several design breakthroughs that were, at times, so far ahead of the technology of the time, at times, we can be sure that they don't know the full extent of the potential of their designs! The cars were powerful and fast, and the tires became an extremely important consideration.
Tires were a limiting factor to the performance of those machines. As we know, they were cross-ply design, and were pretty narrow. Now, we knew that that's not really ideal, but it is a combination of they don't really know that at the time, and the technology of the time could only allow them to do such. The tires also use canvas for its casings, and natural rubber. Synthetic rubber had been around by then, but it is still very new, and expensive to make, so it is ultimately not used on those racing tires. Thanks to the design and materials used, those tires were, consequently, pretty sensitive to heat, on fast tracks such as Mellaha (Tripoli) and AVUS, for example, it would be better if new tires were to be carefully run in before pushing, or else, they would literally disintegrate in just a few laps. But, I think it is very hard to be careful with new tires, considering that they had to deal with, at times, more than 400hp, and bags and bags of torque.
The width of those tires means that there's not much lateral grip to get from them. An engineer friend of mine said that according to some sources, those cross-plies could only handle about 1g of cornering load before slipping. Also, thanks to the varied road surfaces of the track of the time, roadholding is a important thing to consider, and with all the bumpy and uneven surfaces, they tend to use soft suspensions (soft when compared to today's racing cars). The cars themselves were designed to slide around the corners, using the inherent lack of grip of the tires to, ironically, make it 'round the bends in the fastest way possible.
So, okay, putting wings on them, I think, would cause the suspension to bottom out a lot, and also increase the grip, but not much. The one thing they might do, is to drastically increase heat buildup on those 1930s tires and make their life shorter.
As a final thing, I think I would like to end with a piece I remembered reading somewhere. Eng. Robert Eberan-Eberhorst, the designer of the Auto Union Type D, later recalled that "if only they had those mid-1960s-era tires to fit in the D Type back then..."
What would help is if the tail were accompanied by shark fins. Side force doesn't strain the tires, it directly gets it's grip from the air itself.
@MongoWreckin consider applying for a job
@@WynnofThule I think that would on really fast corners, and straight line stability... correct me if I'm wrong, though...
@@jcgabriel1569 yeah. A fin above the CoG would also nullify some body roll in those high speed corners.
The paradigm of grip was very different. It had almost more to do with motocross or flat track bikes than with today's cars. Lateral friction was not achievable. The suspension and the whole geometry with wild cambers was such that the car would be kinda trying to dig the tire into the surface to get forwards traction. Correctly stated that the surface of racetracks was nothing like today. It was either hard concrete, or it was very rough bitumen-bound rubbish, more like a glued gravel rather than asphalt as we know it now. On these softer surfaces, the narrow and hard tires got a good bite. It is almost like thrust pointing backwards, and angling it with the whole car.
What if 1930s Grand Prix cars had 3-Spokes?
I'd love to see how the various decades of racing cars would do with modern tires sized appropriately for the power/weight of the cars.
That Type C, though - when I've mastered that car, I'll know I've learned Assetto Corsa. You have to respect it at every turn, you need your concentration at 100% for the entirety of the time you're 'at the wheel'. It's so unforgiving of the slightest mistake...yet an absolute pleasure to drive when you're on your game. Too much understeer, surprise oversteer when you least expect it, sometimes it likes accelerating quickly, sometimes not, some things change but one thing stays the same - it always wants to kill you!
ive honestly prefered the Mercedes-Benz W125 over the type c it was more fun to drive for me
@@sean-fw7zi I can definitely see where you're coming from, the W125 is a thing of beauty!
That's the thing with the Auto Unions. They're not the easiest thing to drive. The driver sits so far in front, that it's very hard to gauge how much sideways you're getting. And with those cross-ply tires, it gets sideways so easily. Even back in the day, not many drivers could get their heads around it, only some of the most daring drivers of the time could really push them hard. One thing of note, though, some of the most successful pilots of the Auto Unions were Bernd Rosemeyer, Tazio Nuvolari, and Achille Varzi, all three of them were former motorcycle racers. That probably had something to do with it...
this is a controller player's nightmare lmao
@@sean-fw7zi
Is there a quality W125 mod for Assetto Corsa? I've tried one, but it is much easier to drive than Kunos' 250F, and in no way comparable to the Type C's quality.
At 90mph you are definitely benefiting from the downforce. While testing on Miatas, difference between ones with and ones without wings was pretty big on tracks with average speeds under 80mph. Formula student cars usually don't even get close to 60mph and all competetive ones run extreme aero packages.
Formula student cars run such big wings and aero packages to make downforce at lower speeds. The lower the speed the more aggressive an aero package can be because you don’t have to worry about drag and yes downforce makes a difference even for slower cars, in a formula car you feel the downforce start to make a real difference around 70-75 mph, obviously the heavier the car and worse the aero thats gonna get higher but it still has a drastic effect on lap times
In updating the physics model, I didn't hear you mention drag. Just weight and downforce. Were you able to modify the drag function somehow to add wing drag into it? Seems not, because you actually hit a higher max speed with the wing than without it (162 with it, 160 without). I thought maybe your exit speed from the last corner might have been higher with the wing, but your speed under the bridge was 120mph in both cases - the same.
This was really fun to watch. I had never seen this sim before. Thanks for the vid!
Always like the history lessons attached with the videos on this channel.
alternative title:man drives plane around racetrack
I noticed in the first lap, you were more or less guiding the car through the corner with the entire car. The second lap seemed like your steering input was more precise. I'm thinking for that track something more like a traditional F1 set up, or 60's/70's winglets and wing set up might have worked better. For several obvious reasons, all of which you have pretty much stated. But this was a very cool experiment. Very cool video.
As Jimmy Broadbent would say:
WANG
MASSIVE WANG
Did you change any of the car's setup except the wing? I thought that it would allow you to stiffen the suspension a bit that would help counter the top weight roll in those early bends without becoming too skittish on other parts of the track. Great video overall though, thanks for all your usual excellent output.
Also 6 secs on a 3:30 minute lap isn't a small improvement, that's almost 2 secs a minute and would normally take years of development to achieve.
Bravo! Top notch, quality viewing right there. The subject material, the production, the research. Brilliant!
This is tremendous. Also the fact that you can bastardize cars is also tremendous. Love it. Merry Christmas everyone.
Fantastic video! wonderfully paced and edited, can’t wait to see more!
This man is truly asking the BIG questions of our age.
In AC the auto union is the craziest death machine ever developed for racing, but… the engine is one of the coldest sounding ever! Bruce Mclaren is the racing God.
The whole presentation of the video and cinematography is just on point. Good job!
Your videos are outstanding, Thank you very much making such enjoyable entertainment.
Man your channel is so underrated, how come you have "only" 30k subs? The quality of the content is amazing and even i with 30 years as a car and racing fan and working in the busines learn something new almost every video i watch.
Keep it up, this channel with explode earlier or later!
I would very, VERY much like to see a Type C with an F1 style forward and rear wing so you could really balance the forces around the CG.
Auto Union Type C: Pikes Peak Version. 🤣
I feel like the 6 seconds that you went fester is a bit skewed. The lap with the wing had some clearly faster lines. I think 3 seconds is more representable
Smokey Yunick put a wing on his Indycar in 1963 and says in his autobiography that Colin Chapman studied it intensely. I've always placed that car as the start of the wing wars.
Since the weight slowed you down a bit, are you thinking of trying two smaller 60s style wings as well?
PLEASE MAKE MORE LIKE THIS
Great video, loved the thought behind it. There was a version of the Type-C which had double rear wheels which was used for hillclimbing, I wonder if the downforce along with the increased rear contact patch would have helped solve the loose rear end, especially at high speed.
dually race car 😁
I'm curious how much faster these really old cars would go when equipped with modern day racing tires and brakes 🤔
Interesting experiment, would love to have seen the data for those laps! I know you doubted it's benefit in the first part of the lap, but I noted you were already 2-3 seconds up when you exited the corner with the pot-hole, so it seemed to have gained time fairly equally around the lap. I noted you were able to brake much later into the corners (almost trial braking style) and crucially, your accelerating out of every corner was much better! I know you will get the benefits of the downforce more at higher speeds (downforce is squared with speed essentially), but that extra mechanical weight certainly helped to grip up the wheels better!
P.S. amazing introduction - the cinematics were lovely to look at!
Haha great video Jake. My thoughts are the height and weight of this wing would induce the car to be top heavy in fast corners. This would create more roll effectively lifting the inside wheels from the track and reducing overall grip. So sort of undoing what you were trying to do. I wonder if fitting a lower, lighter wing would have a different effect?
This is an interesting point. Would the force from the wing help self center and offset the extra body roll? ie. The wings force points into the corner with more body roll
“A massive aerofoil on the roof” nah fam the aerofoil IS the roof 😂
Holy shitballs this channel is gold man... 🥇 Subbed. Keep it up man 😃
Private racer invents wing and takes first in qualifying: gets banned
Chaparral does it and only gets one win the whole season: WOW SO INNOVATIVE
Like bruh cmon, way to give credit
Mind you chaparral did it yeeears later
I love the idea that the original wing could be dangerous in the event of a crash........... In a time when drivers sat on fuel tanks, while wearing no seatbelts or helmets, on tracks with spectators and trees right on the edge of the tracks!! Absolutely bizarre!! 😂😂😂
These videos are art. So much to appreciate!
Another great study by professor Jake, keep'em coming please..... Love how at noon he changes his labcoat for a leather cap and goggles and trashes his creations around. Top dude, Top channel, Top entertainment....
Really interesting video! Nice done.
Great vid, awesome idea. Now all wil be courious, what gain would give a proper channeled floor with huge diffuser 🤔??
Because there is a massive amount of room under the car body to attach slick spliter-side channels-diffuser assembly😁.
FYI at 14:38 when you read the time off, I'm assuming you got it from the clock you inserted in the top-right of the video?
If so, the end numbers are the frame count, and since your footage is at 60 fps, the 48th frame is actually 48/60th's of a second, or 0.8
That makes me wonder, if the streamlined body of these cars would feature modern F1 aerodynamics, alongside the ground effect. Could the interwar Grand Prix cars compete with late 70s early 80s F1?
A ground effevt streamlimed chassis exists for the tyle C (the ground effect was accidental), and it was used in a land speed record attempt.
It likely couldnt compete with 70s f1 because of the cross ply tires and drum breaks wearing out too quickly, but for a single hotlap, maybe.
These machines were basically a century ahead of their time, and are insanely impressive, but also very umrefined.
that gap between knowing how to do it and it actually being implemented reminds me of solar panels. solar panels were invented in 1839 45 years before the internal combustion engine but it wasn't until like 2010 where it was actually being used everywhere.
I never knew that, thank you for sharing!
How close the Germans were to discover the potential of downforce in the late 1930's? They actually discovered ground effect, and measured it in a windtunnel, but the engineers considered it a measuring error...
The Auto-Union Type D slipstreamer for speed record runs was developed and prototyped in scale models to maximize stability, reduce lift, and minimize drag. One version in 1938 featured what we would call sideskirts today, and other unusually shaped body panels. This effectively sealed the floor and acted as a Venturi tunnel. They wanted more stability and less lift, and they accidentally got both through downforce. The model was measured in a windtunnel with zero lift. The rig was only set up to measure lift, not downforce. Rather than realizing that the measurement was correct, and that the model undid all of the natural lift and more, the measurement was seen as an error. At first look, they were not being too unreasonable - every single time before, they measured non-zero lift. Usually they struggled to keep the car on the ground at high speeds. Some models produced so much lift that they would take off, some would stay on the ground but unloading the wheels to varying extent, but no model ever produced downforce. Considering how brilliant and Germanly pedantic the engineers were, some of them with experience from airplane engineering, I would say that they were literally one shower-thought away from realizing what was actually going on with this model, measuring it again, and exploring it.
This "accidental ground effect" version of the car was very stable in tests. And it had just a tiny but more drag than the conventional designs. So they made it in full scale and ran it in speed record attempts, without realizing what they were doing. That's the car Berndt Rosemeyer died in during a speed record run. Crosswind destabilized the car, some overloaded body panels probably sheared off, he could not catch the slide, and the car flew off the highway at a huge speed. The development of this version was discontinued.
But in the midst of GP technical regulation changes between 1937 and 1938 (a switch from a maximum weight formula, to a minimum weight formula + engine displacement limit), and expected developments into the 1939 season (power-to-weight ratio was getting insane again), they had spare weight to play with. They actually considered running compact slipstreamers on some slower circuits. Porsche even submitted a viable design to Mercedes, you can find a blueprint scan under the name "Mercedes T90". With all of this, rather than strapping a wing on the car, they might have been pretty close to coming up with ground-effect slipstreamers.
The next time ground effect was used, that time intentionally, was in 1960 on the insane Bluebird-Proteus CN7 land speed record vehicle, which is a story and a half in itself. And then Colin Chapman with Lotus 78, but that is a well-known history.
Good story... really good story, Jake! It's like a "back-to-the-future" movie of some kind.. really fascinating! Also to think, they were so close to put on the wing by real, back in the 1930!
I've always wondered, how do you make the needles on the dash rebound like that instead of just moving in set intervals?
me too
You're such a storyteller!
Great video again. Great information, great entertainment and obvious passion are what makes these videos so great.
But don't get me wrong I also enjoy watching you race. A lot. I hope the 66 season is still going.
@12:57 The car nearby looks more like from the 50ies. It is still period correct. The Suedschleife existed until the 70ies.
What a great idea for a video.nice work!
Man, I love stuff like this! It is amazing that Assetto Corsa allows you to do these "what ifs" so realistically. But that also is a tribute to your modding skills, Jake. Thank you.
Finally a coffin with a wing so it can fly the driver to heaven
Revisit with modern styles of wings, or even ground effect on the streamlined version.
Meanwhile, somewhere in Southern England, a certain Sussexian shed-dweller is taking notes...
You got it a little wrong. With the wing it should actually do a boat load better in the low speed, high speed not so much.
It would be interesting to see this car with wings attached directly to the unsprung mass, applying downforce to the wheels without causing any heave compression in the suspension.
I never was a road racing fan, growing up on nascar stock cars and all made me that way.
However a mixture of an updated riverside on nr2003 and your videos make me enjoy the type of racing maybe just enough to taste some of it on sims.
Air brakes! Why don't you try adding them, instead of a fixed wing? They existed on WW2 planes. Hydraulics actuated. That would be a thing 😊. Thank you so much for your well crafted video and effort!
Love the giant tachometer, very industrial! Very cool video, sorry I missed it originally.
"The wings will blot out the sun! Then we shall race in the shade"
Well done..I enjoyed watching and listening.
I know the spelling is different, but seeing your handle, are you a Lynyrd Skynyrd fan?
I know I'm a dinosaur, but Jochen Rindt wrote an open letter to the FIA back in '69/'70 via Autosport magazine in the UK asking them to ban wings because it was taking the skill out of racing. In fact after he won the German GP at Hockenheim in 1970 in the Lotus 72 he said "a monkey could have won in that car".
Aerodynamics have killed racing in my opinion.
I'd love it if you'd make a video explaining how you make experiment videos like these.
Great video 👍 quality content
Wonderful video idea; it really makes you wonder why racecar designers didn't discover downforce sooner. My fave example: The Opel RAK rocket car program utilised simple wings, but primarily to keep the wheels on the ground at high speed. Most notable was the RAK 2, which reached 148 mph during a record run at AVUS in 1928 (only 60 mph off the land speed record at the time). A rocket-powered car with wings in the 1920s - it's still a futuristic idea 100 years later!
To my poor understanding, the wings were much more effective when the downforce was applied directly to the wheel hubs forcing the tires into heaver contact with the pavement, than when applied directly to the chassis. I claim no expertise in this manner, just seem to remember it by living through the early areo age and being fascinated by F1 and Can-Am race cars. Would you consider doing a follow up using a wing from a Chaparral?
Early day racecar drivers were crazy, that must have been scary as hell
Imagine this car with modern f1 slick tires
I'm trying to have a break from sim racing but now you have made me need to go back to AC for a classic bit of fun, that track looks amazing.
What graphic settings are you running for AC?
As usual a wonderful video, i never get enough of the historic context that you put in your productions. I think would be interesting doing something similar with another great breaktrough in motorsport, electronic aids, i'm curious to see what features like abs or slip control gave to racing cars in term of performance. Anyway, thank you!
It's hideous!!! I love it!!!
Is there a downoad link for the winged version?
You mad man....what have you done?
In all seriousness I think lack of downforce with the old pre-war cars is the very least of the concerns. One word. BRAKES. Apparently back in the 30s actual brakes were optional. The Auto Unions had a top speed just north of 180mph in the 30s.....with a braking distance that was long enough that the U.K could scramble a flight of Spitfires before the Auto Unions would come to a stop from even 150mph. You sort of just vaguely suggest it slows down.
Very cool! :)
I am thou skeptical of the modifications. The wing might look simple but it's still a result of many, many years of engineering. That thing produces massive downforce. With the amount of power the car has, and tightness of the track, drag means little. But just getting that much downforce in such a small package would not be as easy back then.
Plus, knowing how AC does tyre load sensitivity, car in the video likely had a bit more grip than it would be possible with the tyres they had.
If there is one thing studying both history and engineering taught me is that generally what we call today brilliant or revolutionary ideas were still just small increments back then. And engineers of old knew a lot more than it seems today. Most of them likely knew downforce would be good, but there would be many indirect reasons for the technology to adapt slowly.
Also, when doing any reality check of car mods, downforce is the most common/biggest thing getting over exaggerated ;). Still, by virtue of "been there, done that" i appreciate the work that went into the video. Cheers!
Too bad nobody had done a mod for AC of the Chaparral 2F yet. Fortunately, tho, there's a working movable-wing 2E mod (made by Legion).
Great idea very interesting. A wing on an older model race car. Love the videos and track and car history lessons!
Gotta love simulators for allowing such "what if" scenarios for cheap. Love your videos
Let's get the obvious out of the way first. The Auto Union Type C was never exactly the prettiest car, but with that wing, it looks like something of an abomination.
Anyway, on the history front, a couple of notes to make:
1. The last Type C Streamliner Rosemeyer drove (the one he was killed in), is considered by some to be the first ground-effect car.
2. Though not specifically for downforce, the driver could operate a system to lift the deck lid on the 1955 Mercedes-Benz 300 SLR, allowing it to act as an air brake.
Trying to compare apex speeds, and how well you can exit corners, I think the wing may help more than you think through a number of those medium-speed sections. And because you can exit corners better, you're often gaining 3-5 mph on the straights that follow.
I think the largest mid-corner gain may be where you were doing 50-80 mph in the car without the wing, as odd as that might sound. But let's face it, beyond a point, the tires just don't have any more lateral grip to give.
In any case, the wing seemed to help overall. It may be as you said, in making the car more predictable. And like I said, I think it helps on corner exit when putting the power down. The weight and downforce actually makes the car more planted.
As others have said, maybe even with just 1960s tires, I think this could really be one hell of a beast, and scary fast, too.
I suspect the wing might make the front-engined cars like the Mercedes W125 and Alfa 12C-36 understeer more. So the wing may help the Auto Union the most out of the bunch.
And yeah, the specs of the base cars are impressive for the time:
Auto Union Type C --- 6.0-liter supercharged V-16, 520 hp @ 5,000 rpm, 627 ft-lb @ 2,500 rpm
Mercedes Benz W125 --- 5.7-liter supercharged S-8, 592 hp @ 5,800 rpm, 683 ft-lb @ 3,000 rpm
Alfa Romeo 12C-36 --- 4.1-liter supercharged V-12, 360-370 hp @ 5,800 rpm, 450+ ft-lb @ n/a rpm (estimated torque)
Alfa Romeo 12C-37 --- 4.5-liter supercharged V-12, 430 hp @ 5,800 rpm, 500+ ft-lb @ n/a rpm (estimated torque)
This was another fun one, and maybe not a totally expected outcome in certain respects.
Dude wtf Broadbent who, 2min of you vid blows most you tubers out of the water absolutely awesome glad I stumbled onto it this is the way to do a TH-cam vid & with assetto truly wicked
@wacoon I love everything about this video, from the fun "what if" scenario, the excellent commentary, and lack of stupid music. Hats off to you, sir. I COULDN'T AGREE MORE !!!!
PLEASE do the video on ISMA supermodifieds! They are the F1 of asphalt short tracks and there are halfway decent AC mods available for them and Oswego Speedway -their home track. (Oswego Speedway has an interesting place in American racing in itself.) They NEED to get some time in the spotlight.
Its interesting the Type-C and its rival the Mercedes W25 overtopped Fritz von Opel’s RAK rocket car run (238 kmph / 1928) which had mid-body inverted aero wings (negative lift) to keep it planted on the AVUS straight. It couldn’t make the banked turns as the rockets were fixed and the steering inputs were to keep the car straight over the bumps. I suspect because it wasn’t a wheel driven car, after its successful demonstration that project moved on to a rocket train and rocket aircraft, the focus of the racing teams may have been more on each other. Part of the trick was to get the wings over the axels, but the mid-body idea makes sense for a single wing set.
"Slightly obvious" I see, this is what you humans call sarcasm.
Glad they didn't have wings- spoils the looks of a beautiful car- the 60's Lotus was a perfect F1 car- Fat tires, you could see the driver, see the engine, beautiful streamlined body, killer paint job. Then they tacked on that awful wing- killed the car for me...
Beton actually is German for concrete and schleife means loop. thats why its called Betonschleife. Concrete Loop. Also it gets spelled with a longer O sound. As if you would say "Betone-schleife"
another interesting experiment: the 2020 or 2021 F1 Car without any wings.
The car looks more stable with the wing, especially at higher speed. You seem to not fight the car as much.
AHAHAHAAAHAHAA WHAT HAVE YOU DONE!!??? I love this damn channel.
props for the editing. this is the first video I've watched from you and actually, I'll leave a sub here.
also props for your german pronunciation (coming from a german)
07:38 "slightly obvious" 😁👌🏽
I'm only a third of the way through but this video is excellent. Great commentary, great edit. Great job, man. Thank you.
Carbon fiber wings would be a different story. That would solve the weight issue. They had carbon fiber in the 19th century already. The materials were there, science of aerodynamics was there. But it would take several decades for modern wings to emerge.
what i wonder is .. is the wing placement are impacting on the car setup .. on this exemple the wing act like a front wing with majority of the downforce focusedd on the front tyre .. if you placed the wing at the back what would have changed ?? lighter direction ? more nimble? less bouncy ?? i would love to have your opinion. greetings from france.
Its amazing that Gran Prix HP did not catch up with pre war Auto Union and Merc -Benz till like the 80s.
Excellent video. How do you make these changes? What apps do you use? I guess this mod isn't approved by the original modders so you can't release for us to have a go
My thoughts as well
Its a fairly convoluted process of 3d editing and compiling and physics editing. I only really go so far to make it work enough for a video, so its missing things like ai, LOD models and such. Even if I had permission from Gary to share it I would have to work on it more first
That wing experiment is a cool idea but putting it above the driver almost as a roof is one of the worst possible places from the weight distribution perspective. So it doesn't only add weight. It raises the center of mass and these guys had an understanding of a mass distribution stuff, I mean that's one of the reasons for having the engine in the middle. I'd love to see a Mk2 design with something more similar to the first Lotus or Ferrari designs. Where the aero devices are kept lower. Such progression doesn't seem too far fetched for me.
Did you add the massive additional DRAG? Doesn't seem so by your straightaway speeds....?
You would of thought that once they had discovered that the wing concept worked, and that if you placed it in a favorable position longitudinally on the car, that they would of instantly realized if they had two wings and placed them fore and aft that they could tune the down force to their hearts content. But it seems they just stuck with one wing for ages. That baffles me.
New subscriber here! Great video! (it would be interesting to see overlapping images of both laps…!)
The Opel rak 2 rocket car from 1928 had wings, all thought on the sides.
I fucking love how useless that dial is, *downshift* is it 4000 or 2000? no one knows till you get back on the power.
Who do I have to talk to about making a racing sim, where you’re a car maker and you build race cars that’s starts in the 60s and works it way to modern times making cars for lamans
I don’t think a single run is a fair assessment for either wing or wingless. Maybe the average of a couple laps with each would be a bit fairer.