Thanks for doing this series. As a D&D virgin, I'm trying to get into it, and have a friend that has a LOT of the original books from AD&D, so that's where I'll be starting.
Great video! You've inspired me to dig up my old books! now where did I put them!. During my AD&D days back in the 80s, due to often playing in a tournament style environment, we used to enforce the core rules as closely as we could as they are stated word for word in the books. Yes there were rule lawyers and we rarely used house rules; as we took the books for gospel. This would often result with a lot of character deaths. Every adventure saw fatalities with PCs; and the subsequent rolling of new characters. It was standard practice for every new character to state a Will of inheritance that another player's LG character would attempt to enforce. In this way; even with the loss of several characters some progress could be made. The game was very hardcore and the fun in the game was due to the great imaginations and personalities combining with the great challenges and over coming them. I can remember Demi-human charaters almost always multi-classing to give them in effect a higher level cap. Caps that were rarely ever attained I might add. In tournament games I can remember fighters rolling a 1 for Hps; adding 1 for constitution Adj. brought it to 2. The core DM guide stated that Drunk characters would add +3 to HPs. Now 5. So it was a standard play with such low Hit points to purchase plenty of mead and good ale; even if it did force a negative "to hit" adj. Also stated in the DM guide were rules for possibly surviving even if brought down to -3 hps ect. There were many tricks that the experienced players could play to keep their characters alive; all rules within the core books. Cheers!
That's cool! Thanks for the feedback. I played a number of tournaments back in Tallahassee, Florida as a kid too. I think back then, the college level players wanted that GenCon tournament vibe like we see in The Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan. The way you played with the gospel and by the book rules is truly magical and what makes 1st edition awesome. I know same viewers here have been upset with some of my house rules, but maybe they forget i'm trying to hook young millennials on the hidden magic of 1st edition. Think trying to convert a World of Warcraft player to Everquest ;P The drunk characters stuff is hilarious and deserves a damn comedy sketch! I can almost see some half-lit Dwarf named Borco running around with suds in his beard and a half dull axe in his hand trying to chop Orcs in the shin as if he's calling out some song about how Clanggedin Silverbeard took a maiden to the fair with only 20 copper and still scored. ;)
Indeed the game has evolved over the decades and getting younger players to adapt to 1E would need some house rules. In earlier versions it seems that the supernatural world revolved around a human centric world. Today's version of a fantasy RPG is far more liberal with its freedom of race, class, magic selections. ect. Perhaps this is because the average person is far more educated with fantasy lore in general.
Firstly, thanks for doing these. I have been playing since the late 70’s and no matter how long you’ve played its great to get a different perspective. Have to agree with Shallendor’s comment regarding non-human multiclass and human dual class. In addition to their racial abilities non-human characters such as fighter magic user combinations can wear armour and cast spells simultaneously, human dual classes can’t. This can have huge consequences. I have a working example, assuming Player’s Handbook, Unearthed Arcana and Monster Manual used as printed. All dice rolls averaged so a long sword would do 3.25 damage per round when needing a to hit roll of 11 against a large opponent. Character Stats unadjusted are 16 except for intelligence 17. Normal equipment. Full Plate with Shield, with damage adjustment for full plate ignored. Racial class limits removed. And there are bound to be spell combos and options not covered. In this example compare Character A, an elven Cleric/Fighter/Magic User Level 10/10/11 resp with 50 hit points, and Character B, a human dual class Fighter/Magic User 10th and 13th respectively with 77 hit points, roughly equivalent to 12 million xp each divided by level when awarded, individually going toe to toe with a 10 hit dice red dragon which alternates breath and melee attacks. Character A casts stoneskin, endure heat, resist fire, protection from evil, aid all out, of combat and then slow, effectively granting haste without the system shock survival roll, so consider character hasted. Round 1(1&2) Dragon melee - No damage - stoneskin, inflicts 29.4 hit points Round 2 (3&4) Dragon breathes - No damage - endure heat, 29.4 hit points Round 3 No combat, dragon is dead. If the averages some how went against the character the dragon would inflict an average 11.8 hit points with its breath and 7.65 hit points in melee. Character B - No Armour - casts stoneskin, protection from evil, shield all out of combat and then slow, effectively granting haste without the system shock survival roll, so consider character hasted. Round 1(1&2) Dragon melee - No damage - stoneskin, inflicts 25.2 hit points Round 2 (3&4) Dragon breathes - takes 20.25 hit points - inflicts 25.2 hit points Round 3 No combat, dragon is dead. If the averages somehow went against the character the dragon would inflict an average 20.25 hit points with its breath and 14.03 hit points in melee. Character B - In Armour Round 1 Dragon melee - takes 11.4 damage - inflicts 12.6 hit points Round 2 Dragon breathes - takes 20.25 hit points - inflicts 12.6 hit points Round 3 Dragon melee - takes 11.4 damage - inflicts 12.6 hit points Round 4 Dragon breathes - takes 20.25 hit points - inflicts 12.6 hit points That’s an average total of 63.3 damage 82% of hit points. Also note that the save is 1 for character A and 5 or 7 for B vs Dragon Breath. Thus character B is four or six times more likely to have to roll saves for magical items if they had any. So although the combats last for 4 rounds in all cases Character B and potential magical items take significantly more damage.
AD&D 1E was my first intro to D&D so it’s got sentimental value to me. We’re finishing an OD&D campaign next month and then I’m DM’ing Tomb of Horrors. Can’t wait. Love the video. But what’s the sizzling sound in the background?
Starting my first campaign with some friends tonight ._. May have just convinced me to be a fighter rather than an illusionist LOL, thanks for the information man ^^
Illusionists CAN be abused. Especially with Phantasmal Force, and the player / character has NO comprehension what the term "must have experience feeling and duplicating magical effects". Same with illusions. Later Phantasms have heat, sound and smell bonuses, but NOT at first level. Very important.
But that doesn't mean Illusionists are "weak". They are not. Situationally, if an illusion has no smell, heat or sound requirement, it's fair game for a 1st level illusionist.
The level limitations and xp charts were the way to balance the characters. Humans could Dual Class while non humans could multiclass. Humans got nothing, while nonhumans got abilities including some better saves!
Ahh so that was the reason. As teenagers we were were baffled. There were some adventures that some races had no chance at and felt limiting. I see why now, thanks!
@@Classic_DM yes they did it to get some balance otherwise you would get some that were OP. That is one thing I don't like too much about 5e, the characters in later levels can get too OP, like Superheroes
Great video series. Re: Level limits and Middle-Earth-style campaigns, you may be interested in checking out "Gandalf Was Only A Fifth Level Magic-User" by Bill Seligman, in Dragon Magazine issue #5, page 27 (from way back in March 1977). It's been copy/pasted a lot of places on the web. Whether one agrees with the article or not, it's an interesting perspective worth a read in any case.
I've been hoping to get my hands on all the back issues of the Dragon one day. I loved it as a kid, that's for sure. I'll look up Seligman's article. Thanks for that tidbit!
What kind of dungeon grid are you using? Is it wipe board material? I have been searching for something that works, found a stack of generic piece together ones that kind of work. How do you handle movement?
Plexiglass with 1" grid drawn on the back with a sharpie works great. Support the plexiglass with clear cabinet stops. In these older videos, I actually have the grid on the white board beneath since I was using architectural yellow tracing paper for maps. Personally, I use house rules for movement www.telliotcannon.com/classic_dm/2022/4/19/heroic-house-rules
While I agree somewhat, I'm fairly certain I never have seen Legolas spot a secret door or Gimli detect a sliding or shifting wall in any of the LotR films. The level limits were imposed to be fair to the humans with no infravision or other special abilities. You also need to remember items like the Girdle of Giant Strength which allow a character to become incredibly powerful. I'm as big a fan of Tolkien (the books) as anyone but AD&D is not LotR.
Great comment! Also, I have to remember that, "The game assumes that only non- or semi-human characters can be multiclassed, and only certain class combinations are possible, depending on the race of the character." When we were kids, we bent the rules a lot!
My friend has been pressuring me to learn how to play ADND and I’m like “Bro you literally won’t even help me learn the confusing as fuck rules”. Now I can learn the rules. Thank you.
This PPTX has the fonts embedded. www.patreon.com/posts/32789599 Requires Architect 2 font. fontzone.net/font-details/architect-2 Alegreya www.fontsquirrel.com/fonts/alegreya
I always thought that there were problems with some of those old tables. What I thought most odd was that most PC races could not be clerics, except as NPCs. I always thought that Elves ought to be able to be druids, too. And why couldn't other races be bards? But the game was very human-centric then, and it's obvious to me that players were being encouraged to play them, with half-elf a close second.
I do wave off level limits and of course the gender discrimination of ability scores (and half orcs get max Wisdom of 18 and Charisma of 16), but I like the idea of limiting classes based on races. That said, Dwarves and Half Elves should be allowed to be Paladins (minimum CHA of 15 required in my game), gnomes and half orcs can be druids (shamans), and elves can be Rangers just to mention a few houserules.
Maximum hit points for player characters? I allowed two of the appropriate dice pick the highest except first level was maximum and I felt that was generous...
If a player rolls a monk, illusionist, or MU and rolls a pair of 1s.....It really depends on the players you have at the table IMO. Old school players know how to deal with weak characters. Newer age players are used to being more resilient (P2E for example) www.telliotcannon.com/classic_dm/2022/4/19/heroic-house-rules
In our case at 2nd level the Magic User would have 4 (first level) plus 1 (second level) = 5 hit points. Another 1 at third level would most likely be just changed to a 3 to prevent a 6 hit point third level character. If you have a horrible constitution and have a minus to your hit points, that character is probably garbage in a AD&D 1E game.
The first few releases of the game were because Gygax wanted a "simulationist" style so he had now outdated ideas on how characters should be built, hence all the restrictions and bonuses that various races had or didn't have.
"THUMBS DOWN" from that tone of sneer and smug against Gary-All-Father. "Outdated", how narcissistic of you - is Shakespeare outdated, is Tolkien outdated ... are you lapping up the shit Amazon is serving up ?
Thanks for doing this series. As a D&D virgin, I'm trying to get into it, and have a friend that has a LOT of the original books from AD&D, so that's where I'll be starting.
Sure thing. Let me know if you have any requests!
It’s so hard to find good resources, so thank you for going in depth about this!!
Thanks! Let me know if you want any particular details or have any requests! Have fun!
Great video! You've inspired me to dig up my old books! now where did I put them!. During my AD&D days back in the 80s, due to often playing in a tournament style environment, we used to enforce the core rules as closely as we could as they are stated word for word in the books. Yes there were rule lawyers and we rarely used house rules; as we took the books for gospel. This would often result with a lot of character deaths. Every adventure saw fatalities with PCs; and the subsequent rolling of new characters. It was standard practice for every new character to state a Will of inheritance that another player's LG character would attempt to enforce. In this way; even with the loss of several characters some progress could be made. The game was very hardcore and the fun in the game was due to the great imaginations and personalities combining with the great challenges and over coming them. I can remember Demi-human charaters almost always multi-classing to give them in effect a higher level cap. Caps that were rarely ever attained I might add. In tournament games I can remember fighters rolling a 1 for Hps; adding 1 for constitution Adj. brought it to 2. The core DM guide stated that Drunk characters would add +3 to HPs. Now 5. So it was a standard play with such low Hit points to purchase plenty of mead and good ale; even if it did force a negative "to hit" adj. Also stated in the DM guide were rules for possibly surviving even if brought down to -3 hps ect. There were many tricks that the experienced players could play to keep their characters alive; all rules within the core books. Cheers!
That's cool! Thanks for the feedback. I played a number of tournaments back in Tallahassee, Florida as a kid too. I think back then, the college level players wanted that GenCon tournament vibe like we see in The Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan. The way you played with the gospel and by the book rules is truly magical and what makes 1st edition awesome. I know same viewers here have been upset with some of my house rules, but maybe they forget i'm trying to hook young millennials on the hidden magic of 1st edition. Think trying to convert a World of Warcraft player to Everquest ;P
The drunk characters stuff is hilarious and deserves a damn comedy sketch! I can almost see some half-lit Dwarf named Borco running around with suds in his beard and a half dull axe in his hand trying to chop Orcs in the shin as if he's calling out some song about how Clanggedin Silverbeard took a maiden to the fair with only 20 copper and still scored. ;)
Indeed the game has evolved over the decades and getting younger players to adapt to 1E would need some house rules. In earlier versions it seems that the supernatural world revolved around a human centric world. Today's version of a fantasy RPG is far more liberal with its freedom of race, class, magic selections. ect. Perhaps this is because the average person is far more educated with fantasy lore in general.
Firstly, thanks for doing these. I have been playing since the late 70’s and no matter how long you’ve played its great to get a different perspective.
Have to agree with Shallendor’s comment regarding non-human multiclass and human dual class. In addition to their racial abilities non-human characters such as fighter magic user combinations can wear armour and cast spells simultaneously, human dual classes can’t.
This can have huge consequences. I have a working example, assuming Player’s Handbook, Unearthed Arcana and Monster Manual used as printed. All dice rolls averaged so a long sword would do 3.25 damage per round when needing a to hit roll of 11 against a large opponent. Character Stats unadjusted are 16 except for intelligence 17. Normal equipment. Full Plate with Shield, with damage adjustment for full plate ignored. Racial class limits removed. And there are bound to be spell combos and options not covered.
In this example compare Character A, an elven Cleric/Fighter/Magic User Level 10/10/11 resp with 50 hit points, and Character B, a human dual class Fighter/Magic User 10th and 13th respectively with 77 hit points, roughly equivalent to 12 million xp each divided by level when awarded, individually going toe to toe with a 10 hit dice red dragon which alternates breath and melee attacks.
Character A casts stoneskin, endure heat, resist fire, protection from evil, aid all out, of combat and then slow, effectively granting haste without the system shock survival roll, so consider character hasted.
Round 1(1&2) Dragon melee - No damage - stoneskin, inflicts 29.4 hit points
Round 2 (3&4) Dragon breathes - No damage - endure heat, 29.4 hit points
Round 3 No combat, dragon is dead. If the averages some how went against the character the dragon would inflict an average 11.8 hit points with its breath and 7.65 hit points in melee.
Character B - No Armour - casts stoneskin, protection from evil, shield all out of combat and then slow, effectively granting haste without the system shock survival roll, so consider character hasted.
Round 1(1&2) Dragon melee - No damage - stoneskin, inflicts 25.2 hit points
Round 2 (3&4) Dragon breathes - takes 20.25 hit points - inflicts 25.2 hit points
Round 3 No combat, dragon is dead. If the averages somehow went against the character the dragon would inflict an average 20.25 hit points with its breath and 14.03 hit points in melee.
Character B - In Armour
Round 1 Dragon melee - takes 11.4 damage - inflicts 12.6 hit points
Round 2 Dragon breathes - takes 20.25 hit points - inflicts 12.6 hit points
Round 3 Dragon melee - takes 11.4 damage - inflicts 12.6 hit points
Round 4 Dragon breathes - takes 20.25 hit points - inflicts 12.6 hit points
That’s an average total of 63.3 damage 82% of hit points.
Also note that the save is 1 for character A and 5 or 7 for B vs Dragon Breath. Thus character B is four or six times more likely to have to roll saves for magical items if they had any.
So although the combats last for 4 rounds in all cases Character B and potential magical items take significantly more damage.
Those are pretty insane multi-class levels.
Cleric/Fighter/Magic User Level 10/10/11
AD&D 1E was my first intro to D&D so it’s got sentimental value to me. We’re finishing an OD&D campaign next month and then I’m DM’ing Tomb of Horrors. Can’t wait.
Love the video. But what’s the sizzling sound in the background?
I used to run ambient sounds. In this case it's a desert cave with sand. I stopped using them as mobile watchers hate them. 🎲🎲🎲
Good job on the series, I like listening to you describe it all.
Thanks!
Starting my first campaign with some friends tonight ._. May have just convinced me to be a fighter rather than an illusionist LOL, thanks for the information man ^^
No problem. I should update this series sometime. It's rough!
Illusionists CAN be abused. Especially with Phantasmal Force, and the player / character has NO comprehension what the term "must have experience feeling and duplicating magical effects". Same with illusions. Later Phantasms have heat, sound and smell bonuses, but NOT at first level. Very important.
But that doesn't mean Illusionists are "weak". They are not. Situationally, if an illusion has no smell, heat or sound requirement, it's fair game for a 1st level illusionist.
The level limitations and xp charts were the way to balance the characters. Humans could Dual Class while non humans could multiclass. Humans got nothing, while nonhumans got abilities including some better saves!
Ahh so that was the reason. As teenagers we were were baffled. There were some adventures that some races had no chance at and felt limiting. I see why now, thanks!
@@Classic_DM yes they did it to get some balance otherwise you would get some that were OP. That is one thing I don't like too much about 5e, the characters in later levels can get too OP, like Superheroes
Great video series. Re: Level limits and Middle-Earth-style campaigns, you may be interested in checking out "Gandalf Was Only A Fifth Level Magic-User" by Bill Seligman, in Dragon Magazine issue #5, page 27 (from way back in March 1977). It's been copy/pasted a lot of places on the web. Whether one agrees with the article or not, it's an interesting perspective worth a read in any case.
I've been hoping to get my hands on all the back issues of the Dragon one day. I loved it as a kid, that's for sure. I'll look up Seligman's article. Thanks for that tidbit!
The only reason I gave up any of my earnings for 5E was for the Middle Earth variant.
And then they dropped it, unacceptable .
What kind of dungeon grid are you using? Is it wipe board material? I have been searching for something that works, found a stack of generic piece together ones that kind of work. How do you handle movement?
Plexiglass with 1" grid drawn on the back with a sharpie works great. Support the plexiglass with clear cabinet stops.
In these older videos, I actually have the grid on the white board beneath since I was using architectural yellow tracing paper for maps.
Personally, I use house rules for movement
www.telliotcannon.com/classic_dm/2022/4/19/heroic-house-rules
While I agree somewhat, I'm fairly certain I never have seen Legolas spot a secret door or Gimli detect a sliding or shifting wall in any of the LotR films. The level limits were imposed to be fair to the humans with no infravision or other special abilities. You also need to remember items like the Girdle of Giant Strength which allow a character to become incredibly powerful. I'm as big a fan of Tolkien (the books) as anyone but AD&D is not LotR.
Great comment! Also, I have to remember that, "The game assumes that only non- or semi-human characters can be multiclassed,
and only certain class combinations are possible, depending on the race of the character."
When we were kids, we bent the rules a lot!
My friend has been pressuring me to learn how to play ADND and I’m like “Bro you literally won’t even help me learn the confusing as fuck rules”.
Now I can learn the rules.
Thank you.
thanks for the review
No problem!
Great Video! I really liked the "Character Sheets" you have for your party, are those (or any like those) able to be downloaded and adapted?
This PPTX has the fonts embedded.
www.patreon.com/posts/32789599
Requires Architect 2 font.
fontzone.net/font-details/architect-2
Alegreya
www.fontsquirrel.com/fonts/alegreya
I always thought that there were problems with some of those old tables. What I thought most odd was that most PC races could not be clerics, except as NPCs. I always thought that Elves ought to be able to be druids, too. And why couldn't other races be bards? But the game was very human-centric then, and it's obvious to me that players were being encouraged to play them, with half-elf a close second.
I do wave off level limits and of course the gender discrimination of ability scores (and half orcs get max Wisdom of 18 and Charisma of 16), but I like the idea of limiting classes based on races. That said, Dwarves and Half Elves should be allowed to be Paladins (minimum CHA of 15 required in my game), gnomes and half orcs can be druids (shamans), and elves can be Rangers just to mention a few houserules.
House rules are a necessity IMO.
Here are some of mine.
www.telliotcannon.com/classic_dm/2022/4/19/heroic-house-rules
Thanks!
Welcome!
D&D elves are most definitely not Tolkein elves
Maximum hit points for player characters? I allowed two of the appropriate dice pick the highest except first level was maximum and I felt that was generous...
If a player rolls a monk, illusionist, or MU and rolls a pair of 1s.....It really depends on the players you have at the table IMO. Old school players know how to deal with weak characters. Newer age players are used to being more resilient (P2E for example)
www.telliotcannon.com/classic_dm/2022/4/19/heroic-house-rules
In our case at 2nd level the Magic User would have 4 (first level) plus 1 (second level) = 5 hit points. Another 1 at third level would most likely be just changed to a 3 to prevent a 6 hit point third level character. If you have a horrible constitution and have a minus to your hit points, that character is probably garbage in a AD&D 1E game.
Ralph Bakshi!!
His Lord of the Ring films was awesone and we loved the Ral Partha lead miniatures that were licensed firthe film too!
@@Classic_DM Hahahaaa! Yes!
The first few releases of the game were because Gygax wanted a "simulationist" style so he had now outdated ideas on how characters should be built, hence all the restrictions and bonuses that various races had or didn't have.
Yep. 🎲🎲🎲
Note the (original) limits for Dwarf. I somewhat recall only a 10th level whatever could build a Keep or castle.
"THUMBS DOWN" from that tone of sneer and smug against Gary-All-Father. "Outdated", how narcissistic of you - is Shakespeare outdated, is Tolkien outdated ... are you lapping up the shit Amazon is serving up ?