Whenever I lend money to friends or support their businesses, I treat it as money I have gifted and do not expect to see again. No matter what they say, or the implied obligation, it will only lead to bitterness if they do repay the debt. It's lovely and appreciated when they do, but the bitterness will destroy any friendship. I'm not an easy touch for money, and the loan has got to make sense. I've been helped by other's generosity, but I believe in business, entrepreneurship, graft and independence. So I'll put my money where my mouth is.
I disagree. friends don't borrow money they can't pay back. if every friends that wants to borrow money I need to see that as a gift... I'm not borrowing any more money. this weird attitude of you shouldn't be mad when friends don't pay debt is stupid. of a friend needs a gift he can ask for that, if he needs a loan he can ask for that too. but both sides need to be fair. I've borrowed up to 500 euro to friends and that's fine, but you better pay it back ASAP. maybe you're rich, but i don't want to give that money away. I worked for that.
"Ah, the fabled sandwich! We'll have to go back in time, to my meeting with H.G. Wells at a London railroad station cafe, during the German hyperinflation of the 1920's. I loved that sandwich, despite needing a large truck full of high-denomination Deutschmarks to pay for it. But I knew if I waited more then a minute or two, I'd need TWO truckloads of Deutschmarks, so the sandwich was, in reality, momentarily (relatively) cheap. How I happened to be using German money instead of the old reliable Sterling, is a story for another time." That was written before I heard the real-life tale of the expensive sandwich. I had assumed it was something exotic, like some of the interesting things that appeared in some of H.G. Wells's stories. Oh, well; it was a sad and sobering tale. Not every good deed is punished, but some of them indeed are.
First J-Hoff video I didnt particularly like, or agree with. But then again I'm not a great businessman and there are people all over the world that owe me money. IMO: 1. Do the right thing, always, even when it costs you. Karma or whatever you want to call it will always come back 2. Dont give away what you cant afford to lose.
If you're the lender who values the relationship above the money, it must be considered a gift. In fact, you'd better tell the borrower/friend it's a gift with "a reciprocal string attached"; if they don't return some value...fine - everyone is cool, but they must understand there is likely a limit to how much or how often they'll be able to get more. Flame on....'cuz I know how much people LOVE binary thinking (e.g. "It can't be BOTH a gift AND a loan. If it's a gift - NO string can be attached. It's a loan, dude, you're just calling it a gift.")
Huh... I think this equation is potentially missing a very key factor! When you were starting and had no money for food, the value of those free meals was very high, e.g. you may have had to quit the business to be able to eat! When the loss was incurred years later was the negative impact to the business greater than the positive impact it had to get free food at the start of your jounery I wonder!?
I do not think it justifies the losses, but it does put a perspective on it. It's still a fair lesson, you should take into account how friendship can influence and cloud your judgement. However, don't be too harsh either.
I agree with this. The money owed, while substantial, sounds like it was less than the money that they didn't have to buy sandwiches when they were starting.
@@sylvandaugert6203 well that's something only @James Hoffman can answer. If he could have carried on his business without all the free food... Then maybe it doesn't stack up... If it was a small percentage of his turnover in a month... Then perhaps it does. But it's probably somewhere in the middle, and that few thousand pounds might be the margin on one machine or the revenue from a couple of days training...and in those terms it might seem like a fair contra deal / trade. But... The fact the video was made suggests there was probably a feeling of inequity at the end of it. I have to right off 10's of thousands per annum for the greater good... So its a thought process I wrangle with all the time!
The phrase "Can't see the wood for the trees" covers your comment, it is a small personal story to illustrate a bigger point in business decision making and emotions clouding financial judgement.
@@Thetache Your comment is a little ambiguous and could be taken as both agreement and disagreement depending on how its read... Assuming it's criticism, I have to flip that one back on you, sorry. I am all too aware of the point that was being made, but I don't believe it is as simple as that, so wanted to add some nuance to it. As an owner / director in a business I spend a lot of time analysing and reflecting on my current and past decisions to learn from the results and improve etc. looking at decisions through a financial lens based on current values is as logically invalid as looking back at broader history and judging people based on current values. There are many things and decisions I make in business that are not about the purely financial benefit to myself and the business. The decision to maintain an employee with terminal cancer for as long as they want on full pay, even though their productivity is vastly reduced is an example. To terminate a profitable customer because their attitudes towards staff creates issues etc. Some decisions I make for the business are because they are "The right thing to do" as a human, or for selfish reasons to manage the energy I have above the immediate needs of the business. As an owner my decisions are far more nuanced and big picture than when I was in the corporate world making decisions within someone else's framework. ... My comment was intended as food for thought as I am generally obsessed with the big picture (forrest) view. It's one of the things I enjoy most about James's videos is the self analysis / questioning of his own process that goes into everything he does :)
Not really. Business is not just about the money, it is about friends, it is about doing things well. I don't doubt you made thousands of pounds over the years of doing business with these guys, even if it was (sometimes) slow in coming, so much so, if you looked hard at it, that in the end, consider you broke even. In fact, given that your friends did give you good references and recommendations, I bet you're ahead more than you think. It's not just about money.
the other upside, you were able to gain energy from these hundred quid sammys, and convert that energy into a company that did presumably quite well? thank you for these personal stories. I would be interested to hear your take on wealth, and also valuing wealth and success. on my personal front, I sell sandwiches and coffe, as well as repair violins etc... my mobile coffee pod is in its first year, there fore still gaining its footing, so I get to supply myself with leftover sandwiches... I appreciate your videos very much James, thankyou.
friendship means, i pay my bills immediately and i make all in my power that friends are threaded correctly. that said, that weren't friends, they were businesspeople
Friendships, like any relationships that matter, sometimes require taking chances on. Just because there are risks that doesn’t mean they are not good (or important) risks to take. Just go in with open eyes. And open hearts, when possible. The people who owe you probably are not gone forever. You never know how they might come back to return the favour.
gobseck by Honore de Balzac. everyone should read it and learn from it. We can stand on shoulders of giants or keep eating expensive sandwiches 😜. Nice content man. like your attitude 👍
"I helped friends that helped me at my lowest, and it hurt me because I wasn't expecting to help THAT much. Friendship is dangerous, make sure it doesn't hurt your bottom line" and here I thought you weren't just some crotchety old, boomer ass, old man. Guess this story is about both of us getting let down now, huh.
In this day and age I'm willing to think that making decisions that aren't the stake holder's best interest is a virtue. It seems rather common today that companies make only decisions that are in their stake holders best interest and it seems like it often creates worse results in many other measures than people who can get money out of the business existing. Like decreased quality and brand image, worse condition of the environment and surrounding society and whatnot. I get what you mean and the context you're talking about, but generalizing the statement and taking one detail out of the talk on internet is always a possibility. The story was interesting and in some ways I feel like it was the right decision too. Yeah, I bet the missing money hurt in various ways, but like you said you learned things. I'm sure the experience building their coffee house brought something new to you even at that point, and making a local business exist did something that can be measured in other ways than money.
There's a reason why we have banks. Cos it takes away that guilt, and does not hide the market. Sometimes you cannot be the bank, as well as the business owner, and as well as the customer too. So then why do anything at all ? And at the same time, the market is the customer, that has to have a salary as well. So no money in pockets, means no circulation and spending too. So keeping people in jobs are just as important also. I think the lockdown has shown us this much hasn't it ? Plus... I feel like there is another bubble which people are not aware of, which is marketing. This online versus offline business... Does it add value to you? If there is more adverts out there, than there are buyers, and it confuses them from buying, what do you do ? You remove those bad adverts, and reduce the choices. But I fear that, we're heading, or we are already in the stage which technologists call...
Wow...I did not expect a petty video such as this from you, Mr. Hoffmann. If they are truly your friends, and they treated you right initially, why would you publicly out them like this? Yes, you didnt mention them by name, but if they see this, they will know who you are talking about. From the way you described things, they most likely intended to pay you until their business tanked. I've had my own business for 33 years. I've learned that if you do business with friends, be prepared to accept that you might not get paid. Yes, it sucks to take a business loss. But get over it and move on. Or...file a legal claim against them. Please stick with your reviews. This type of video from you is disappointing.
No you're absolutely and categorically wrong. Friendship is precisely why certain deeds should never be accounted for - this is called altruism. Without it, the world would be a mere zero-sum game. You might want to polish your academic bagage on the philosophy of ethics. Maybe start with Nicomachean Ethics
Key takeaway: "Friendship can make bad decisions feel really good." Thank you for this reminder, James.
The most expensive sandwich I've ever eaten: any sandwich in London.
Missed a trick James, "This Isn't the most expensive Sandwich I've ever eaten........this is just a Tribute"
I really want to press like but it's at 69 likes.
Generosity is a wonderful thing. Sometimes it workes out, sometimes not. Please don't let one bad experience stop you from being generous!
Thank you for sharing. I'm always happy when you post a new video.
Whenever I lend money to friends or support their businesses, I treat it as money I have gifted and do not expect to see again. No matter what they say, or the implied obligation, it will only lead to bitterness if they do repay the debt. It's lovely and appreciated when they do, but the bitterness will destroy any friendship. I'm not an easy touch for money, and the loan has got to make sense. I've been helped by other's generosity, but I believe in business, entrepreneurship, graft and independence. So I'll put my money where my mouth is.
wayde andrews This advice has always served me well in life. Friends don’t get loans-it’s always a gift. If the money comes back, great.
Neither a lender nor a borrower be, for loan oft lose itself and friend alike.
I disagree. friends don't borrow money they can't pay back. if every friends that wants to borrow money I need to see that as a gift... I'm not borrowing any more money.
this weird attitude of you shouldn't be mad when friends don't pay debt is stupid.
of a friend needs a gift he can ask for that, if he needs a loan he can ask for that too. but both sides need to be fair. I've borrowed up to 500 euro to friends and that's fine, but you better pay it back ASAP.
maybe you're rich, but i don't want to give that money away. I worked for that.
Wanna “lend” me some money ;-).
"Ah, the fabled sandwich! We'll have to go back in time, to my meeting with H.G. Wells at a London railroad station cafe, during the German hyperinflation of the 1920's. I loved that sandwich, despite needing a large truck full of high-denomination Deutschmarks to pay for it. But I knew if I waited more then a minute or two, I'd need TWO truckloads of Deutschmarks, so the sandwich was, in reality, momentarily (relatively) cheap. How I happened to be using German money instead of the old reliable Sterling, is a story for another time."
That was written before I heard the real-life tale of the expensive sandwich. I had assumed it was something exotic, like some of the interesting things that appeared in some of H.G. Wells's stories. Oh, well; it was a sad and sobering tale. Not every good deed is punished, but some of them indeed are.
Just on time, I was struggling trying to make sense of a similar situation happening to me right now. Thank you James for sharing this experience.
Am I the only one wanting to know what’s on that sandwich?
Yeah, damnit. Click baited, but I'm happy about it. Still want to know what's on the sandwich.
i’m going with chicken pesto
He doesn’t tell you?? I’m leaving
Love and friendship
@@anton9004 Love and friendship looks delicious
First J-Hoff video I didnt particularly like, or agree with. But then again I'm not a great businessman and there are people all over the world that owe me money.
IMO:
1. Do the right thing, always, even when it costs you. Karma or whatever you want to call it will always come back
2. Dont give away what you cant afford to lose.
Maybe think of it this way instead:
That's a bargain for good consulting advice, and it came with free sandwiches.
“Never lend what you can’t afford to lose”
Thanks for the story! I often find myself in the expensive sandwich situation with my friends even outside of the business perspective.
Oooh this is how it starts James. This is how you become an evil supervillain! "Your friendship is your greatest weakness!" /s
If you're the lender who values the relationship above the money, it must be considered a gift. In fact, you'd better tell the borrower/friend it's a gift with "a reciprocal string attached"; if they don't return some value...fine - everyone is cool, but they must understand there is likely a limit to how much or how often they'll be able to get more. Flame on....'cuz I know how much people LOVE binary thinking (e.g. "It can't be BOTH a gift AND a loan. If it's a gift - NO string can be attached. It's a loan, dude, you're just calling it a gift.")
Relationships are either a blessing or a lesson. Sometimes both, but mostly one or the other.
Huh... I think this equation is potentially missing a very key factor! When you were starting and had no money for food, the value of those free meals was very high, e.g. you may have had to quit the business to be able to eat! When the loss was incurred years later was the negative impact to the business greater than the positive impact it had to get free food at the start of your jounery I wonder!?
I do not think it justifies the losses, but it does put a perspective on it. It's still a fair lesson, you should take into account how friendship can influence and cloud your judgement. However, don't be too harsh either.
I agree with this. The money owed, while substantial, sounds like it was less than the money that they didn't have to buy sandwiches when they were starting.
@@sylvandaugert6203 well that's something only @James Hoffman can answer.
If he could have carried on his business without all the free food... Then maybe it doesn't stack up... If it was a small percentage of his turnover in a month... Then perhaps it does.
But it's probably somewhere in the middle, and that few thousand pounds might be the margin on one machine or the revenue from a couple of days training...and in those terms it might seem like a fair contra deal / trade.
But... The fact the video was made suggests there was probably a feeling of inequity at the end of it.
I have to right off 10's of thousands per annum for the greater good... So its a thought process I wrangle with all the time!
The phrase "Can't see the wood for the trees" covers your comment, it is a small personal story to illustrate a bigger point in business decision making and emotions clouding financial judgement.
@@Thetache Your comment is a little ambiguous and could be taken as both agreement and disagreement depending on how its read... Assuming it's criticism, I have to flip that one back on you, sorry.
I am all too aware of the point that was being made, but I don't believe it is as simple as that, so wanted to add some nuance to it.
As an owner / director in a business I spend a lot of time analysing and reflecting on my current and past decisions to learn from the results and improve etc. looking at decisions through a financial lens based on current values is as logically invalid as looking back at broader history and judging people based on current values.
There are many things and decisions I make in business that are not about the purely financial benefit to myself and the business. The decision to maintain an employee with terminal cancer for as long as they want on full pay, even though their productivity is vastly reduced is an example. To terminate a profitable customer because their attitudes towards staff creates issues etc.
Some decisions I make for the business are because they are "The right thing to do" as a human, or for selfish reasons to manage the energy I have above the immediate needs of the business. As an owner my decisions are far more nuanced and big picture than when I was in the corporate world making decisions within someone else's framework.
... My comment was intended as food for thought as I am generally obsessed with the big picture (forrest) view. It's one of the things I enjoy most about James's videos is the self analysis / questioning of his own process that goes into everything he does :)
I recently read, the hotel 4 seasons in munich actually sells a sandwich for 111€. So there are many ways to spend too much money on a sandwich.
Very artful business lesson. Besides coffee, you have a knack that can be used like John Cleese did.
Not really. Business is not just about the money, it is about friends, it is about doing things well. I don't doubt you made thousands of pounds over the years of doing business with these guys, even if it was (sometimes) slow in coming, so much so, if you looked hard at it, that in the end, consider you broke even.
In fact, given that your friends did give you good references and recommendations, I bet you're ahead more than you think.
It's not just about money.
I've been clickbaited.
How much did square mile make by working with this sandwich shop? Was it less than the bad debts they left?
When you feed someone that's a powerful thing ....
Nothing is free and the things that dont have a price tag on them are the most expencive.
Thanks James! New perspective for me, greatly appreciated! (What a genius metaphor btw!)
Reminds me of my drivers license.
Thank for sharing these lessons!!!
Are you still friends with sandwich guys?
the other upside, you were able to gain energy from these hundred quid sammys, and convert that energy into a company that did presumably quite well? thank you for these personal stories. I would be interested to hear your take on wealth, and also valuing wealth and success.
on my personal front, I sell sandwiches and coffe, as well as repair violins etc... my mobile coffee pod is in its first year, there fore still gaining its footing, so I get to supply myself with leftover sandwiches... I appreciate your videos very much James, thankyou.
This is great advice thanks for sharing!
free food when you have no money = I Owe you my lifeee
Can you imagine if the guys actually refused them the sandwiches. There are more things valuable than money.
Extremely nice editing in this video, wow. I don't care about a sandwich but the editing makes me enjoy watching regardless :D
Unfortunately I had the same with a sausage roll! But I can’t let one snake ruin the rest of the good business friendships I have
What a twist 😂
Is there a way to make good coffee bread?
Love your videos James!
Wise advice.
Reminds me of Kickstarter projects
Hard to see the future is, the dark side clouds everything.
So... did your friends try to get out of paying their bills by saying “well you ate all of those leftover sandwiches” ?
Hey James. Very inspiring story!
Great advice James
friendship means, i pay my bills immediately and i make all in my power that friends are threaded correctly.
that said, that weren't friends, they were businesspeople
Ok but what was in the sandwich I'm hungry, I was wondering if I had similar ingredients lol
Friendships, like any relationships that matter, sometimes require taking chances on. Just because there are risks that doesn’t mean they are not good (or important) risks to take. Just go in with open eyes. And open hearts, when possible. The people who owe you probably are not gone forever. You never know how they might come back to return the favour.
The way he holds that sandwich makes me uncomfortable...
gobseck by Honore de Balzac. everyone should read it and learn from it. We can stand on shoulders of giants or keep eating expensive sandwiches 😜. Nice content man. like your attitude 👍
"I helped friends that helped me at my lowest, and it hurt me because I wasn't expecting to help THAT much. Friendship is dangerous, make sure it doesn't hurt your bottom line" and here I thought you weren't just some crotchety old, boomer ass, old man. Guess this story is about both of us getting let down now, huh.
In this day and age I'm willing to think that making decisions that aren't the stake holder's best interest is a virtue. It seems rather common today that companies make only decisions that are in their stake holders best interest and it seems like it often creates worse results in many other measures than people who can get money out of the business existing. Like decreased quality and brand image, worse condition of the environment and surrounding society and whatnot.
I get what you mean and the context you're talking about, but generalizing the statement and taking one detail out of the talk on internet is always a possibility. The story was interesting and in some ways I feel like it was the right decision too. Yeah, I bet the missing money hurt in various ways, but like you said you learned things. I'm sure the experience building their coffee house brought something new to you even at that point, and making a local business exist did something that can be measured in other ways than money.
There's a reason why we have banks. Cos it takes away that guilt, and does not hide the market. Sometimes you cannot be the bank, as well as the business owner, and as well as the customer too. So then why do anything at all ? And at the same time, the market is the customer, that has to have a salary as well. So no money in pockets, means no circulation and spending too. So keeping people in jobs are just as important also. I think the lockdown has shown us this much hasn't it ? Plus... I feel like there is another bubble which people are not aware of, which is marketing. This online versus offline business... Does it add value to you? If there is more adverts out there, than there are buyers, and it confuses them from buying, what do you do ? You remove those bad adverts, and reduce the choices. But I fear that, we're heading, or we are already in the stage which technologists call...
Coffee Yoda
Philanthropic clickbait!
It was an important life lesson that cannot be repeated enough, but I thought I was going to hear about a sandwich!
neatly done
But how did it taste though?
JUST EAT THE DAMN ORANG-- I MEAN SANDWICH!
haha i like this reference
Make a video on tea. Would be interested to see you discuss tea. Thanks and loving every video.
What's up the with description???
I like chicken sandwich
Wow...I did not expect a petty video such as this from you, Mr. Hoffmann. If they are truly your friends, and they treated you right initially, why would you publicly out them like this? Yes, you didnt mention them by name, but if they see this, they will know who you are talking about. From the way you described things, they most likely intended to pay you until their business tanked. I've had my own business for 33 years. I've learned that if you do business with friends, be prepared to accept that you might not get paid. Yes, it sucks to take a business loss. But get over it and move on. Or...file a legal claim against them. Please stick with your reviews. This type of video from you is disappointing.
No you're absolutely and categorically wrong. Friendship is precisely why certain deeds should never be accounted for - this is called altruism. Without it, the world would be a mere zero-sum game. You might want to polish your academic bagage on the philosophy of ethics. Maybe start with Nicomachean Ethics
Thank you for the post James! I'm sorry for keeping nagging you on this, but pleaaase make an aeropress video! =P