Your point is valid and I agree with it…just to add to this topic I think sequenced drums and softwares are convenient but are equally responsible for losing the power and feel behind the rock music.
I think rock declined when after grunge it became backwards looking, obsessed with vintage tones and retro styles, rather then pushing the envelope of trying new things. The general audience has no problem with sequenced drums and software. A DJ playing pre-programmed canned music is now seen as a musician. So that clearly is not the issue. But the DJ sounds more rebellious then the aging rocker. In the 60's rock was the soundtrack of rebellion and it got reflected in 60's movies. In late 90's movies and onwards the rebellious underground vibe comes from EDM.
I recently enjoyed a concert of a literally vital rock band, they had fun and joy on stage. Both guitarists used a Kemper. I wasn't feeling any sceptic questions that the guitarists missed any feedback on stage using a profiler instead of a tube amp on a cab (or wall of cabs). Even the audience didn't feel disappointed. Personally I played more than a decaded modelers - predominately due to the living conditions in rented flats. The potentional of profilers and modelers is way beyond practibility. You need to know what you want, other than that you get lost in tweaking instead of playing your instrument. I reduced my usage of modeling, because I discovered that even my expensive modeler didn't provide that certain headroom of an amp. And aswell cab and speaker have more impact as being reduced to a wooden case for a driver. The construction of the cab allows to seperate from beaming cabs to actual 3D emission into the room. And that offers rich frequencies in the air. And lead to overthink recording and microphone type and position. To argue with Hendrix, The Who, Led Zep, EVH wouldn't have been the same, is a mistake. A scientist named Prof. Dr. Sönke Neitzel would have used the term hindsight error to discribe wrong thesis and the given examples. The mentioned artists and band had their peak of relevant output in the past, when there was partially nothing else than a cranked tube amp to play with. The PAs developed, a loud stage allowed the audience to literally hear the music. I would like to take The Edge of U2 as an example. I remember him playing his guitars over pedals and a VOX AC30. Over the years he may went over rack systems to a modeler. Off the cuff I don't know his current rig. But his famous clean tone with delay kept vital throughout his "hardware" development. I agree on the possibility that a guy who is used to use profiler or modeler may change his approach to use a tube amp. But it's not a given logic.
I bought the Avid Eleven Rack when it first hit the market over 15 years ago. I powered it with a Marshall 9200 tube power amp. It was for my Rush tribute at that time. It sounded fantastic and I’m a tube amp guy. But I needed tons of flexibility. The Eleven Rack is considered a dinosaur now, even though the patches can still be used with the Headrush platform. The tube power amp is the key to giving the sound dimensionality. Thank you Henning!
If the drummer is bringing a kit, I’m bringing an amp. I get the convenience of modellers, and I’ve used them all over the years at gigs. Just something about guitar, amp and cab interaction. I’ve never been anti modellers, I’m just pro amp. Great video.
Thank you again, Henning!! Music is loosing it's human/organic pulse. It's still the same thing, the tone is in you head/heart and hands, going through your instrument, amplified out into the air, always will be...
I do use a tube preamp + amp in the rehearsal studio and live (a ENGL Tube Rackhead 860 into a ENGL standard cab with V60's). I do use a ENGL cabloader to be able to get the signal directly to FOH. Another setup we use is a Mooer Preamp Live through a ENGL 930 60 poweramp. Also with a XLR out to FOH. In my studio I use a variety of tube preamps through 2 ENGL Cabloaders, and I can divert the sound to a tube poweramp and cabinet. I use plug ins just for sketching songs. They lack the feeling I get with using real tube preamps.
Love this very smart and insightful analysis of what’s really going on in player dynamic when using amp vs modeller. My problem is that I feel like I’m ruining my hearing when I play an amp in the room at a level that is enjoyable / sounds good. So my solution is a hybrid system with a modeller front end and two backends, one for everyday practice and playing at healthy levels through studio monitors and a tube power amp / cab to switch on when I want it really lean into the feel. At least in my studio this works brilliantly for me.
I never thought it would be possible and I've always been drawn to Strat style guitars because I really like how they sound. However, I just got a LP style guitar now and I can't believe how much the sustain of that guitar influences my playing. This combined with a nice peavey classic is just magic. I tried a few mic positions now, playing through the fitting cab (V30 and GT75) and the tone is incredible, just how I wanted it to be. This just makes me happy and I can't really think of going back to a strat now.
My playing experience *feels* different as we get closer to and above 100 dB. There is a combination of psychological and physiological reactions when the air is moving and sound pressure levels rise. Musicians to instruments to air -- a very complex system. Amp modeling + vocal pitch corrections + gridded sampled drums = no longer a captured and idealized version of the thing; it's now an idealized FACSIMILE of the thing.
You’ve captured the essence of the argument between amps and modelers. I use both but I’m only choosing a modeler out of convenience and even then I use a power amp and cabs instead of my monitors.
Thanks for the video and the thoughts. But I think a lot is being mixed up and assumed here. A lot of people can't play a real amp because their living conditions don't allow it and they can't or don't want to afford a rehearsal room. Digital has contributed to people having more opportunities to play and therefore automatically getting better. This also improves their technical playing. “Extreme” metal existed long before digital gadgets and was not comparable to ‘rock'n'roll’ even back then. It's just a natural evolution of music that genres change. People play what they like and many “younger” musicians don't want to make/listen to the music their parents made/listened to.
I love modelling now as it suits my bedroom playing. I used to be in a gigging metal band 20 years ago and I miss that Marshall 1959 100w head through a 4x12 so much. That first super distorted and loud open strum in the rehearsal room was therapeutic.
I've done both, and I just have a hybrid setup now. I use the quad cortex and the 100 watt tube power amp (Synergy 50/50). At the end of the day though you can write amazing songs either way. I don't think tube amps are more "rock and roll", because a good song comes from the artist having the right tools they need to get the job done.
I once had the opportunity (Waaay back in the day. Yes I'm an old fart) to play a 100w Marshall into a 4x12 linked with a Fender bassman into two 4x10's on stage at a festival. It was visceral. I have never experienced anything like that feeling when using a modeller. I love modellers because they are far more versatile but IMHO they can never recreate that.
The closest digital is the BOSS WAZA headphone system. It still feels digital, but it really does a great job of making me feel like it is real. Otherwise, digital always feels thin. You described it best, there is no "thump".
Yes, I think that you are right. Although I don't have a tube amp, I use 2 class-D combo's with some sort of stereo creator. What stereo creator? One of the following: 1: BOSS chorus with wet and dry outputs 2: Phaser based vibrato (Uni-Vibe style) in one channel. Or both channels for extreme effect, my favorite. 3: different overdrive/distortion/fuzz pedal in both channels 4: I forgot (didn't do for a while) All these give a great feeling of sound in the room. I play indeed old rock music and letting the notes sing is one of my main likes of playing guitar. Doesn't have to go real loud for this impression. Watch That Pedal Show from Dan and Mick, they play with 2 amps all the time (since years).
Great (and valid) thoughts. Along with that, the amount of tones available on modelers has meant a loss of individual guitar tone that made the early guitar heroes so recognizable, partly due to the lack of choice in equipment…they used what was available, which was limited and created their own sound because of it. 🎸
You mentioned a lot of aspects I’ve been thinking about recently. One thing is, that the limitations of the analog stuff actually spark a lot of creativity. When I started playing guitar a couple of years ago, I only had a crappy H&K transistor amp and my trusty Epipone Les Paul. In order to find the tone I was looking for, I couldn’t just flip a switch or two and that’s it, but I really had to put an effort in to make the best of what I had. And guess what, it worked, even in my cover band, in which I really needed to be rather versatile when it came to guitar tones. Nowadays, I’m really happy to have my Boss IR-200 on stage, because it makes life very easy. But if I play blues / rock gigs, I’d never be using that one, despite it being so convenient. Another thing is, that there‘s a tendency in music to have something happening all the time. There are fewer instrumental parts in the songs and if so, they tend to be rushed and packed with notes. If you listen to the beginning of Pink Floyd’s Time for example, the band leaves space for the music and every single note to unfold. It creates atmosphere, suspense and finally relief when the drums kick in.
Danke für das Video Henning!❤ Gibt es denn Tube Amps, die du selbst für Zuhause empfehlen würdest ? Ich würde liebend gerne mich mehr damit beschäftigen aber ich frage mich, ob man diese ganzen Eigenschaften mit dem Tube-Amp haben kann, wenn man „nur“ mit 1Watt zuhause spielt (z.B. ENGL Ironball SE)
Perfect examples and explanations! This should be mandatory viewing before buying a modeling amp or a tube amp. Thank you for putting this on the Tube. Just think you might sway some young person into to buying a Marshall and possibly saving Rock music. 🤘🏻🎸
I get the most satisfaction playing through my Laney Cub Super 12 - there's just a different experience from using a valve amp in the room - but I have to admit that the best sound I've ever had on stage was using my Tonefox Elcaster with a modeller into the PA at a local festival earlier this year. Ironically, though, I find I do a lot of my practising and writing on electric guitar with it unplugged.
“The next note you’re going to play is going to be sooner than if you were playing with an amp in the room.” Brilliant and important observation to share. Awesome.
Spot on , on tour with Avantasia, the UA Lion is the core of the guitar tone BUT even though in ears are used by everyone, there's a non IR feed from the Lion going to a Boss Waza Tube expander that has the IR to front of house and sends a non IR 100w class A-B feed to a Blackstar 2x12 cab sitting pointing at the guitar players face for that "guitar -amp interaction" It just fills in that "thing" that feeling. I made a 1x12 monitor with a Celestion V30 just for that very thing. It's modeller to the audience but rock n roll for the guitarist
You are totally right i think. I've build in my Home Studio a Setup to compensate this a bit. My Tube Amps go into a Torpedo and from that i have a 20W Joyo Amp (FX Loop return) into a 1x12 Cab. I turn it on for big Chords and if i want some feedback on the recording. Because the Feedback is then on the DI Track it also works for reamping. I love Feedback for the End of Songs or if a Solo rings into the next part.
An amp, a room, hitting you in the gut = extension of my emotion. All of a sudden my slop also feels real. I think slop is also apart of vibe. I was just talking about this at all places after my moms wake Friday when some friends came to help me deal with the loss. My sons friend goes lets fire up the tubes and I was being lazy and go no.. then we started talking and i go. Imagine listing to fortunate son lined to the grid and Fogerty going through a sim. I think it would suck. We are castrating music. thanks for posting this. I needed it..
I am glad you did this video ...... more youtubers are micing amps again thankfully .......2 years ago a lot more people were depending on IRs and yes the sounds were more flat sounds more same sounding
I wasn’t expecting much from this video because there’s a whole lot of videos about this subject. However you really nailed it with your detailed description. I use an HX Stomp through a Fryette power station. I’ve tried FRFR, and straight into the board. I hated it. TUBE power amp is the only way for me. I wish Fryette (or anyone really) would make a small tube power amp.
I primarily home write and record. I own a Marshall for Humbucker distorted stuff, and a Vox AC15 for the chimey Gretsch, Fender, and Rickenbacker guitars. Having an amp in the room makes you react in time to sound coming out of the speaker. I am not going to be replacing my unpredictable lead guitar tones. But I got a BOSS IR2 recently, and I had great results finding sounds for rhythm guitars, bass, and even keyboards that allows me to dial in (and back) a sound that can fit in the space that compliments the lead guitar. I think it made my last project a bit less sludge-y. It’s also really good to test out ideas when writing so you don’t bother anyone.
100% agree. I have plugins for home use. But in my rehearsal space with a 6505+ and a Marshall 4x12 and and Triamp mk1 with a 4x12 and a very loud drummer there is no comparison. You play freely you play (at least I do) with love. That sound just envelopes you. I find it difficult to write at the computer but riffs just flow with the amps
I absolutely agree! I always need like 20min to addapt when I play a loud amp again after 10 days using Amplitube at home. It just feels different. Its more difficult to tame, harder to shred but way more exciting! We need more bands using the best out of both worlds - modeler and a tube power amp. Loud stages sound better - no idea why - but thats how it is!
Yup. "Flatiddity" ❤️🔥🕊️🤘🏻 There's something "more fun" when I am using the amp, Vs playing through the Ampero original. The Ampero is insanely convenient, but I honestly feel disconnected from it. Whereas with the amp, it's like the amp "watches" my every move, but the Ampero has to be "watched", or checked upon. If that makes any sense at all.
You have put this concept across very well. Having played my Hayden Mofo live for 15 years I have just recently added a Boss GX 10 into the effects return with great results. You have to study how to use a modeller to get decent results and keeping a valve amp and cab on stage retains the thump. Great tone shaping and flexibility from a modeller which can aid in live performance. A very helpful video for those exploring the modelling rabbit hole.
Hello Henning! I see this as a part 2 of the last week RANT somehow 😋. I understand what you say and also I grasp the difficulty in expressing it. My short take on this is that you remove a part of the human emotional element when playing an instrument. This is more pronounced when you write the music, in my opinion. Another example is playing together with a drummer. I'm guilty of using programmed drums 😒 but I also rehearsed and composed with a full band, and drums in rehearsal room are savage! The whole equation of writing a song changes when you are faced with the brutality or lack of it in that environment. You might end up changing passages that are not loud/aggressive/smooth enough or too much so for a certain part of the song. To come back to your idea, yes, you would play differently not to mention writing with an amp in the room. I attribute that to the 'inflicted' physicality of the sound on the instrument player.
I perceive two crucial aspects of contemporary guitar production: recording in a control room with a tube amplifier in a live room, which doesn't capture any interaction between the live room sound and the guitar at all, and the use of in-ear monitors during live performances. In the latter case, physical interaction may still occur (if a cabinet is present on stage), but the sound is perceived in headphones through a microphone and preamp, and the brain processes it with a slight delay of several milliseconds. Add the demand for silent stages and we get a legitimate reason to use a modeler. Let’s set aside virtuosos who use cabinets offstage emitting sound in the opposite direction to the guitarist himself or intentionally isolated setups...
I totally agree with you. In my favourite album of the year the sounds are so imperfect, but it makes the music so spontaneous and alive. I don't think you can get this with modelers, at least not on the fly.
I love my Quad Cortex, it’s one of the best things I’ve ever bought for being able to play where I live. But if there were no obstacles in the way, I’d choose a real amp every time for the reasons you talk about.
To me it has been an educational thing, I come from a solid state world, since tube amps in Mexico were extremely expensive back in the 90s, they are not cheap now, but things changed. Anyway, modelers were a game changer for me cause I was finally learning what a JCM800 is supposed to sound, what’s an Engl Savage, etc… but outside of the convenience of them, I think we could all benefit from learning how to play an amp, wether tubes or SS, and realize how it has a lot to do with how you attack the strings, what speakers you use and how you adapt to the venue… I still love my helix 😂 but my AMP1 iridium still wins when it comes to the experience of playing and feeling through a cab. EDIT: I guess what I’m trying to say is, I think my goal is to be able to feel comfortable to use other gear and make it work. At the end of the day, I could be spending more money and time on learning the craft instead of gear whoring but what do I know? 😂😂😂
As I am still a beginner in playing electric guitar, I must admit, that I unfortunately cannot completely comment on what you was saying about the tone and the notes themselves. But: as I was starting to learn playing guitar about a year ago, I was using plugins on my laptop. After some months that made me mad to always use the laptop. And so I bought a 25W tube amp (with power soak down to 1 W) and a 1x12 cab. And even as bloody beginner, this changed my world. I loved the feeling of playing. I cannot explain, what it exactly was. Unfortunately, even on 1 Watt resp. with low volume, it was too loud for the other family members in our house due to the 1x12 cab. Especially the older ones. 😉 So I had to sell the amp and the cab again and used the money to by a stand alone modeller (a really good one - you mentioned the brand) and two monitor speakers. According to volume, it is no longer a problem. The sounds are really great. But it is really a different feeling than on the tube amp. I am pretty sure, I will by this amp once again in the far future. But meanwhile I will use my modeller and have fun with it. I think, it all depends on the needs and the environment. Thanks Henning!
So, should we actually compose our music, or get initial composition idea at least, by playing a loud tube amp? I have access to a rehearsal space, however I admit I often just sit at home with a guitar, and yes, play through some sort of simulation (whether it's amp > loadbox > IR, or amp sim plugin), at comfortable volume etc. That'd be interesting to test what songs sound like when created at home vs. created in a place where loud is permitted.
This is one area where I feel Universal Audio's amp pedals excel. They do a great job of retaining that 3D sort of singing thing that you get with a tube amp, that harmonic content that, as you were saying, makes you want to let notes ring out and enjoy the space in between each time you hit the strings.
i believe the unpredictability you mention comes with higher levels and it's not so much we dont take the modeler sounds in the room because of a lack of "unpredictability" but the other way around and we have lost that unpredictability BECAUSE we dont take the sound in the room with a guitar cab and the high levels of moving air that causes this effect because we have been spoiled by the convenience of having a modeler bring a 100watt master-at-10 marshall through a full stack sound in our ears through headphones. i believe if you isolate and mic a real amp and only play it like that, this unpredictability will be missing as well. or at least it will be much diminished and be at the same level that a carefully modeled digital solution like axe fx (with its 1000 knobs just for the "feel" of the amp) offers. thats my view at least
I got a tube amp, 2 Jazz Chorus amps, Boss IR-2, pedals and one modeler (Ampero 2 Stage) and FR12 for the ampless setup. I still love my tube amp the best. I don't love the expense needed to recondition them (changing capacitors and tubes). My second favorite is my Jazz Chorus amps. Not the same as tube but they move air and force you to play better using pedals because these give you the truest tone from pedals. My least favorite but needed: Stage and IR-2. The IR-2 works best swapping out stock IRs. Then it feels like a real amp, but still doesn't given the FR12 still is too clean and doesn't feel or behave like an amp. The Stage is too sterile and has too much stuff I will never use. It never works in the band setting currently until I hit upon a better setting in those conditions. Bar none, I rather use a tube amp and a couple of pedals over the digital stuff any day. My back will tell me to bug off because it's no convenient.
I've been playing the "traditional" way for like 3 years now, but I always wanted a Quad Cortex because of all the flexibility and effects. Finally got one, plugged it to a friends FRFR cabinet and it sucked so many bawlls hahaha, I don't think it was a problem with the Laney FRFR cab, but it just hits different with a speaker. It's kinda hard to explain if you haven't play with tube amps, but now I use the Quad Cortex on the return of my amp and is a great compromise/hybrid system (for example, the clean channel of my 5150 is really bad, and the Quad Cortex takes care of that).
I have tube amps, mostly 100W half and full stack; FM9 MkII Turbo, Helix Floor. They all work great for me. If I could take a 100W half or full stack out, I would; it would be my Bogner Helios Eclipse. My current rig of choice is a Dell Latitude Rugged Extreme touchpad tablet, Arturia Minifuse:1, KMI SoftStep2; I use BlueCat Audio's PatchWork to organize my patches; I have several virtual pedalboards in the SoftStep, and though i have several guitar plugins, I'm only using PolyChromeDSP McRocklin Suite. Into a pair of Alto TS210 Sounds great, no latency, easy setup, the rig (except the PA cabs) fits in a small backpack
We live in the golden age of gear for guitarists. The offering, quality and value is exceptional. Modellers and tube amps are not in opposition, they are simply part of the continuum of tools available to the modern player. It’s a question of use case and preferences : (1) In October 2012, I saw Rush third row from the stage. Alex Lifeson was not using any cabinets. He used amp heads and Fractal Axe Effect. The sound was great and the show amazing. (2) In March 2019, I saw Joe Bonamassa, second row from the stage. He used a bunch of miked amps. (These Fender Twins were LOUD…) The sound was great and the show amazing. I’ll conclude by quoting my favourite lyricist (Neil Peart) : «…All this machinery making modern music, Can still be open-hearted, Not so coldly charted, it's really just a question of your honesty, Yeah, your honesty…»
Modellers are good for home practice. But if you can, use real amps in rehearsal when writing or perfecting a song. Also for recording, use a real tube amp and a second line to a modeller as a backup, but try to be inspired. Modellers are probably perfectly good for live work too, if you are just replaying what you have recorded. Just my thoughts…
Yeah but also we need to be careful with volume to not damage our hearing with real amps I have 15 watt tube combo i had to put it in a room next to me to crank it So i have a question, do attenuators keep the feel of an amp at lower volume or is the volume part of the room feel?
These thoughts also concern me. I use modeling at smaller gigs, but I miss the three-dimensional liveliness of analog sound and interaction with the amp. Nothing has motivated me to play and practice more than my small 5 watt Marshall tube amp with a nice analog Tube Screamer in front of it. Unfortunately, for larger gigs, a quiet stage is becoming more and more of a necessity, even though I can still use my Fender Deluxe Reverb more often these days.
I feel when playing real tube amp it amplifies the player and playing amp plugins feel like i’m using my guitar as controller to trigger the sounds from the ampsim.
I cant imagine someone never have played through a tube amp but im sure they get the same feeling I got as a kid playing 1 for the first time,Im about to get my very first modeler and been playing for 45 years ,but im very curious in the difference like your describing
Totally agree, same with high output pickups, just kills dynamics in playing. But. Very big BUT. We've been there, and we'll never be again. Just new times with new sounds and new way of playing.
Learning and happy accidents happen more frequently when you have to work/struggle to get the sound. I think more than a few famous players prefer guitars/basses that make them work a bit. There is definitely something about being in the room with a great amp that's moving some air. Sadly, most small bars don't tolerate that any more.
Today I watched a YT Short with backstage scene from a Metallica show. It shows the James Hetfield guitar tech and James doing a short break. My blind eyes saw a running Helix next to James guitar tech. So also great and big bands use modelling. As I was the last time in the audiance in Hockenheim/Germany I did not recognice a difference between a real amp and the used modelling.
Cool vid with good points! I have yet to find a modeller sound like an amp in the room. The best sound I’ve gotten out of an amp lately was trying out a Friedman Little Sister. Just fantastic. Modellers are cool for what they can do convenience wise but I’m an amp in the room guy 🤘 PS as I type this and I’m playing my HX Stomp lol
Das ist absolut richtig! Ich vermisse noch heute den "Druck" eines echten Amps und die Interaktion in jedem Modeller. Mein Ton wird nicht mehr getragen. Ich versuche dies mit einer gewissen Kopfhörerlautstärke auszugleichen, ich kann in der Mietwohnung nur noch mit Kopfhörer spielen. Auch da kann man gewisses Feedback bekommen, ist aber nicht mehr unbedingt gesund für die Ohren aufgrund der Lautstärke direkt am Ohr. Ich versuche dies zu kompensieren durch gute, teure, Kopfhörer da ich der Meinung bin, das diese per se weniger Eigenverzerrung haben und damit unschädlicher für das Gehör da die sonst ständigen hochfrequenten teils unhörbaren Verzerrungen nicht mehr das Ohr belasten. Aktuell ein Beyerdynamic DT1770 Pro MKII, den kann ich nur allen Gitarristen empfehlen. Bei selbst noch moderater Lautstärke ein Mörderpfund, Dynamik und "Live"-Feeling, bin begeistert.
Digital changes the phase relationship of frequencies. And you hear the difference. Thats why the tube amp "restores," the spacial vibe of the music. It adds non lock step, phases that the digital took away.
Agreed 100%, you give space to the counterpoints of convenience too, but what is the actual solution? Volume in the room changes the instrument yes but it also likely damages the ears of musicians - do we have to necessarily endure ear damage and shorten the time playing or indeed could we change the guitar design so it reacts the same way at healthy volumes? Perhaps also, playing to a more polished sound where the old studio additions are baked right into the box gives the guitarist less distance between what he makes and what the audience actually hears. Shouldn't the band play to the same sonic output as the audience ?
I saw Gilmour in Ricky channel talking about the wave of sound on his back when he engage the muff with real amps.. This fits perfect what are you talking about. Thanks for the rant. lol
I guess this "rant" is kind of a followup to our discussion at Colos-Saal the other day. And if this is the case, I met the pro guitarist you are talking about later that day and he was mentioning your mutual amp tasting to me. He was talking about it like it was a revelation, like he had seen a burning bush and he was smiling like a little kid! To your question: Two aspects: 1. Tube amps 2. Playing loud. Back in the 80s I could not afford a lot of gear. So I got myself a tube preamp (Mesa Studio Preamp) and built myself a solid state power amp. This ran into a modest Laney 4x12. Being able to play loud enough to be on top of the drummer was already a game changer. I had to relearn guitar playing. Out of the sudden, you have to control the guitar differently. Mute those unplayed strings! All the little noises are exaggerated and become a part of your playing. While this power amp had more than enough power it never gave me that satisfying feeling I knew from other amps. When I got a tube power amp later, it felt so much better. And again I adjusted my playing a little bit. So I think playing loud is 70% of the difference and the other 30% are in the electrical behaviour of power tubes.
This is EXACTLY right, and finally someone is saying it. Thank you Henning ! But we live in an overcrowded world where they want us to live in tiny little very expensive boxes now, posing the hurdle of WHERE do I play loudly without creating problems for myself and others ?
Thing is though, maybe we do need the amp and the amp in the room sound, the interaction between guitar and amp, but rock is niche music now. It's the new jazz. And with that comes smaller venues. And with smaller venues come sound restrictions. So modelers it will be. Maybe the aging rock dinosaurs of the 60's and 70's can still play venues so big where they can turn up their real amps and lean into the sound, but us lesser gods will be lucky to play bars and small clubs. No Marshall stacks, boosted AC-30's or dimed Fender Twins for us anymore.
I say let the Artist have dynamic control of their TONE. Why? Well, at a recent gig, for example, the FOH guy said I should get in ears... for a small bar gig... I just rolled my eyes and said F that! At the end of the show, he complemented me on how I used my volume knob control on both keyboards and guitars to get the right blend with he rest of the group... it was a great night. Not bragging just saying that I got the biggest applause out of the crowd when band members were announced for a reason... I care more about how I and the band sounds than most, if not all, FOH guys. Though... I do have to agree, modelers, etc. definitely have their place, especially for touring bands on the meager budgets they're allowed these days! Musicians have to fight for their right to sound good, for themselves and the crowd... and they appreciate it when you make them feel like you do up there on the stage... like a Rock God you're playing for that moment! 😎🎸🤘🎹🎶🎵
Great, now I miss my Marshall half stack. But that's been gone since the late 90s. I was just having this debate with myself trying to decide if I want to get an amp or a modeller. Amp shopping it is.
Back in the day, instead of an add on like the Inflator, we used toilet paper over the tweeter of the NS10s. One sheet dampened just enough high and mid that when you finished mixing, and too off the toilet paper… boom! The magic happened! 😂
I have always felt that while digital modeling sounds close to the real deal, there is always something missing. I feel it's even worse when the modeler is recorded direct and even real speakers and mics are removed from the equation. When it comes to manipulation of harmonic feedback, that's the biggest thing I take issue with. It then requires additional special equipment to replicate like an e-bow or a guitar with an on board sustainer system. Even then, I feel like the player needs to learn how to use this equipment so they cab correctly replicate the string response of a guitar naturally going to feedback when in the room with a live amp.
Your words so resonate with me and I agree and understand you in a level that if i was in such an agreement and understanding with a girl (even with 30 minutes discussion), i would propose to her and marry immediately!!!
You have a point. Of course, recording yourself as a band is so easy if you go DI with guitars an bass and Midi with your e-drums, all the sounds are software, but standing in front of a 412 with a cranked amp... well it instantly makes your balls grow twice as big, to put it that way. And no matter how many Abasis and Hensons this era spits out, Hendrix is still the best, not because of what he played or could play, but because of how he played it. Modellers surly contribute to that, but there is a thing I noticed long time ago, when modellers weren't so popular and sounded crappy. A lack of attitude. When we startet making music. during the Green Day driven Pop-Punk Hype, we used to party backstage. We drank cheap beer, smoked weed and got to hang out and make out with girls that wouldn't even have known we existed, if we didn't play guitar or drums or anything. That's what people used to call Rock'n' Roll. And it started in the mid 2000's when all the Student bands startet playing Emocore, and it continued with the Djent and Prog Stuff, at least until the mid 2010's, No drinking, only vegan food backstage, they still smoked weed, but besides that they were only sitting around, warming up and looking sad, when we started partying, they looked at us with disgust. They don't want us to comment their lifestyle, but they can't hold back commenting ours: "Well maybe you should stop caring so much about party and show and instead learn to play your instrument better!" Listen, I know I'm not a virtuoso. I am in fact a very mediocre player, but as Glenn would say " I'M PLAYING FUCKING MOTÖRHEAD-STYLE ROCK'N'ROLL, MY PLAYING IS DEFINITLY GOOD ENOUGH FOR THAT, MAYBE EVEN BETTER THAN YOU WOULD BE ABLE TO PLAY IT. AND THAT IS ALL I WANT, I JUST ENJOY BREAKING FREE FROM MY STUPID AND BORING OFFICE JOB FOR A COUPLE OF HOURS AND GET ALL CRAZY AND WILD, SO LEAVE ME ALONE AND CALL THE SUICIDE HELPLINE TO CRY A BIT LOUDER YOU DUMBASS!!!" ( read dit out with Glenns screaming voice in your head)
True, but it can't be seen in a bubble. Those times were 50 years ago - many things have changed in that time. But, yes, your observations are part of that shift - both physical and attitudinal. Thanks for your work.
I agree. When you say the modeler is 97% as good, and the effect is 97% as good, etc. Let's say you have 5 things that are 97% as good, suddenly the final product is 85% as good. I also don't think modelers are 97% as good. If you strum one chord and just try to see if it sounds the same, but I agree the interaction is completely different. I remember the first time I used a plugin I could feel when I screwed up, but it sounded good through the plugin. The plugins don't seem to amplify your mistakes or the small details of your playing. I understand they're a tool and tube amps are expensive, loud, heavy, etc. But I haven't changed my mind that tube amps are better if you have the option.
I totally agree. Much of what I've heard in live performance and youtube reviews does lack the thump and unpredictability of a live amp. Like you mentioned, the balls are missing. Its flat and not 3D. Modelers are definitely useful in the studio but the magic is lost in live performance. Its boring to watch as well. Everything is too perfect. Silent stages sound like karaoke sometimes. Live vocals over canned guitar. Yuck.
I will just tell you I have Kemper Profilers and Helix Floor units. They are good tools. I run the Kemper Profiler through two 250 watt Line 6 PowerCab FRFR units. This is my main and go to set up. The interaction between the guitar and amp is there are all volume levels. But the interaction is different. But that's tubes vs transistors. My firsts Amp was a 62 Fender Bassman . My only tube amp these days is a 15 watt unit. There are venues that won't even let you have an amp on stage these day. That' pretty freeking sad.
Never thought about it before , you are right . Back in the day when I was making myself deaf with a jcm800 and a 4 by 12 in a 5m by 5m rehearsal studio in the 80's , I loved to hold notes and manipulate them with fingers to get different feels and then let it feedback like a bstard. Well done Henning you have defiantly struck a note😁😁
Hello, that's exactly my feeling. I'm only happy with my 150W amp and my 4x12 cab in the room. I need to feel it, the modeler is not for me. Maybe because I'm 50 and what has educated me musically was not digital? It's not a question of not being connected to digital because I'm a IT engineer but precisely, I have this need to have something more organic on the contrary ... What you describe when we play on a real amp/cab is what I feel ...
I get what you're saying I enjoy playing live through amps and in fact I don't even use a modeller, just plugins for recording. I like my monitor to be my amp, not wedges or in-ear monitors. However I don't know whether there is magic in tube amps in that I enjoy even gigging my Katana. Yeah my tube amp sounds better. But why do I enjoy my Katana equally?
Enjoying the X88IR through stereo amp, but when wife is home or asleep the headphones are great. Hope more tube pre amps come out like the Soldano. Having options like IR, Direct, power amp or headphones with pre amp tubes is great. Why doesn’t Fractal or the other companies make their digital modelers with a pre amp tube section? Expand on the JMP-1, ADA MP-1, Mesa Triaxis etc. The ability to choose the amount of pre amp gain stages with all the effects all in stereo 🤘🏻😎🤘🏻
You know what could potentially be really awesome, but also a terrible idea at the same time? A pedal board tube amp. Obviously it would be a chunky piece of gear, but when you think of the size of like a Fryette Power Station or the KSR PA-50 compared to a Helix, FM-9 and such, space-wise the poweramps themselves are still smaller than a flagship modeler from most companies. But imagine having the flexibility of modeler: amp selection/effects selection/routing capabilities… but adding an onboard tube power amp rather than a solid state class D. Which I believe is what we will get sooner or later with the AmpX from BluGuitar. The obvious drawbacks would be stage use would likely cause more damage than being safely placed on a speaker cabinet, but I've also witnessed entire full stacks falling over… though probably not as often as a stompbox getting beaten to hell or getting water/beer spilled on it. I personally have had an issue with space and had to sell all my Synergy stuff and my Syn-50 head, so I got a Tonex and captured every module I had before I sold them and have a Boss GT 1000 core for the effects, which in my eyes those 2 units together I'm still under 4ms of latency and I really try to get the best feel I can out of it. I just got the Blackstar Amped 1, which I know they ripped off the power amp design from BluGuitar and that's a completely separate discussion, but I will say at 100w mode with the power amp sims added… it turned that rig into something I was never able to feel unless I was cranking up a tube amp and I barely turned the master up. I was floored at how good it sounds and how it felt in the room. The chugs just felt so meaty and it pushed air from the speaker incredibly well. I personally don't think 99% of people would be able to tell that it wasn't a full blown tube amp if it wasn't doing a side by side comparison. I'd be interested to hear how it compares to a full blown tube power amp honestly because any video I've seen of the Amped 1 as a power amp for a modeler always sounded good, but it does not do it justice until you hear it in the room.
The dynamics you get from a "guitar" speaker are unique and hard to replicate with PA/FRFR rig. Bring back the full stacks and just mic the kick & vocals for everything outside of stadium shows.
I think there is some loss in the unique "character" of sounds in Modelers and other "perfect" but standardized pieces of gear. It is often the "irregularities" in gear that inspire the special creativity of being in the moment. Another challenge is that in having so many sounds and gear emulations available, we don't have the time to learn each one in depth like we could if we had less gear. And lastly, Modelers can easily produce much higher fidelity outputs than analog gear, but that can make tones too clean and clear, and hard to dirty up. Even with analog gear, just look at all the Pedals used to dirty and distort the original signal. I use an HX Stomp, and finding ways to dirty up tones in a pleasing way is a lot easier on old analog gear. At least, that's what I recall. 😎
All the solo Tik Tuck guitarists have probably never experienced being in a basement playing with a live drummer, bass player and another guitar player. Just jamming out. It’s sad. In the same way it’s getting rare to see a group of kids playing soccer or baseball at the park just for fun.
I was feeling a little down today but then Henning said "flatiddity" and now I am happy again
NOICE!
@@EytschPi42you got me at flatulence 😂
😂
Gave a good proper chuckle idd 😂
Your point is valid and I agree with it…just to add to this topic I think sequenced drums and softwares are convenient but are equally responsible for losing the power and feel behind the rock music.
I think rock declined when after grunge it became backwards looking, obsessed with vintage tones and retro styles, rather then pushing the envelope of trying new things. The general audience has no problem with sequenced drums and software. A DJ playing pre-programmed canned music is now seen as a musician. So that clearly is not the issue. But the DJ sounds more rebellious then the aging rocker. In the 60's rock was the soundtrack of rebellion and it got reflected in 60's movies. In late 90's movies and onwards the rebellious underground vibe comes from EDM.
I recently enjoyed a concert of a literally vital rock band, they had fun and joy on stage. Both guitarists used a Kemper. I wasn't feeling any sceptic questions that the guitarists missed any feedback on stage using a profiler instead of a tube amp on a cab (or wall of cabs). Even the audience didn't feel disappointed.
Personally I played more than a decaded modelers - predominately due to the living conditions in rented flats.
The potentional of profilers and modelers is way beyond practibility.
You need to know what you want, other than that you get lost in tweaking instead of playing your instrument.
I reduced my usage of modeling, because I discovered that even my expensive modeler didn't provide that certain headroom of an amp. And aswell cab and speaker have more impact as being reduced to a wooden case for a driver. The construction of the cab allows to seperate from beaming cabs to actual 3D emission into the room. And that offers rich frequencies in the air. And lead to overthink recording and microphone type and position.
To argue with Hendrix, The Who, Led Zep, EVH wouldn't have been the same, is a mistake. A scientist named Prof. Dr. Sönke Neitzel would have used the term hindsight error to discribe wrong thesis and the given examples. The mentioned artists and band had their peak of relevant output in the past, when there was partially nothing else than a cranked tube amp to play with. The PAs developed, a loud stage allowed the audience to literally hear the music.
I would like to take The Edge of U2 as an example. I remember him playing his guitars over pedals and a VOX AC30. Over the years he may went over rack systems to a modeler. Off the cuff I don't know his current rig. But his famous clean tone with delay kept vital throughout his "hardware" development.
I agree on the possibility that a guy who is used to use profiler or modeler may change his approach to use a tube amp. But it's not a given logic.
I bought the Avid Eleven Rack when it first hit the market over 15 years ago. I powered it with a Marshall 9200 tube power amp. It was for my Rush tribute at that time. It sounded fantastic and I’m a tube amp guy. But I needed tons of flexibility. The Eleven Rack is considered a dinosaur now, even though the patches can still be used with the Headrush platform. The tube power amp is the key to giving the sound dimensionality. Thank you Henning!
If the drummer is bringing a kit, I’m bringing an amp.
I get the convenience of modellers, and I’ve used them all over the years at gigs. Just something about guitar, amp and cab interaction. I’ve never been anti modellers, I’m just pro amp. Great video.
Thank you again, Henning!! Music is loosing it's human/organic pulse. It's still the same thing, the tone is in you head/heart and hands, going through your instrument, amplified out into the air, always will be...
I do use a tube preamp + amp in the rehearsal studio and live (a ENGL Tube Rackhead 860 into a ENGL standard cab with V60's).
I do use a ENGL cabloader to be able to get the signal directly to FOH.
Another setup we use is a Mooer Preamp Live through a ENGL 930 60 poweramp. Also with a XLR out to FOH.
In my studio I use a variety of tube preamps through 2 ENGL Cabloaders, and I can divert the sound to a tube poweramp and cabinet.
I use plug ins just for sketching songs. They lack the feeling I get with using real tube preamps.
Love this very smart and insightful analysis of what’s really going on in player dynamic when using amp vs modeller. My problem is that I feel like I’m ruining my hearing when I play an amp in the room at a level that is enjoyable / sounds good. So my solution is a hybrid system with a modeller front end and two backends, one for everyday practice and playing at healthy levels through studio monitors and a tube power amp / cab to switch on when I want it really lean into the feel. At least in my studio this works brilliantly for me.
I never thought it would be possible and I've always been drawn to Strat style guitars because I really like how they sound. However, I just got a LP style guitar now and I can't believe how much the sustain of that guitar influences my playing. This combined with a nice peavey classic is just magic. I tried a few mic positions now, playing through the fitting cab (V30 and GT75) and the tone is incredible, just how I wanted it to be. This just makes me happy and I can't really think of going back to a strat now.
My playing experience *feels* different as we get closer to and above 100 dB. There is a combination of psychological and physiological reactions when the air is moving and sound pressure levels rise. Musicians to instruments to air -- a very complex system. Amp modeling + vocal pitch corrections + gridded sampled drums = no longer a captured and idealized version of the thing; it's now an idealized FACSIMILE of the thing.
You’ve captured the essence of the argument between amps and modelers. I use both but I’m only choosing a modeler out of convenience and even then I use a power amp and cabs instead of my monitors.
Thanks for the video and the thoughts.
But I think a lot is being mixed up and assumed here.
A lot of people can't play a real amp because their living conditions don't allow it and they can't or don't want to afford a rehearsal room.
Digital has contributed to people having more opportunities to play and therefore automatically getting better. This also improves their technical playing.
“Extreme” metal existed long before digital gadgets and was not comparable to ‘rock'n'roll’ even back then.
It's just a natural evolution of music that genres change.
People play what they like and many “younger” musicians don't want to make/listen to the music their parents made/listened to.
I love modelling now as it suits my bedroom playing. I used to be in a gigging metal band 20 years ago and I miss that Marshall 1959 100w head through a 4x12 so much. That first super distorted and loud open strum in the rehearsal room was therapeutic.
Very insightful - thank you. Definitely ideas I've had but not have been able to articulate so well.
I've done both, and I just have a hybrid setup now. I use the quad cortex and the 100 watt tube power amp (Synergy 50/50). At the end of the day though you can write amazing songs either way. I don't think tube amps are more "rock and roll", because a good song comes from the artist having the right tools they need to get the job done.
I once had the opportunity (Waaay back in the day. Yes I'm an old fart) to play a 100w Marshall into a 4x12 linked with a Fender bassman into two 4x10's on stage at a festival. It was visceral. I have never experienced anything like that feeling when using a modeller. I love modellers because they are far more versatile but IMHO they can never recreate that.
The closest digital is the BOSS WAZA headphone system. It still feels digital, but it really does a great job of making me feel like it is real. Otherwise, digital always feels thin. You described it best, there is no "thump".
I practice mostly on that but look forward to turning my amps on
Yes, I think that you are right.
Although I don't have a tube amp, I use 2 class-D combo's with some sort of stereo creator.
What stereo creator? One of the following:
1: BOSS chorus with wet and dry outputs
2: Phaser based vibrato (Uni-Vibe style) in one channel. Or both channels for extreme effect, my favorite.
3: different overdrive/distortion/fuzz pedal in both channels
4: I forgot (didn't do for a while)
All these give a great feeling of sound in the room. I play indeed old rock music and letting the notes sing is one of my main likes of playing guitar.
Doesn't have to go real loud for this impression. Watch That Pedal Show from Dan and Mick, they play with 2 amps all the time (since years).
Great (and valid) thoughts. Along with that, the amount of tones available on modelers has meant a loss of individual guitar tone that made the early guitar heroes so recognizable, partly due to the lack of choice in equipment…they used what was available, which was limited and created their own sound because of it. 🎸
You mentioned a lot of aspects I’ve been thinking about recently. One thing is, that the limitations of the analog stuff actually spark a lot of creativity. When I started playing guitar a couple of years ago, I only had a crappy H&K transistor amp and my trusty Epipone Les Paul. In order to find the tone I was looking for, I couldn’t just flip a switch or two and that’s it, but I really had to put an effort in to make the best of what I had. And guess what, it worked, even in my cover band, in which I really needed to be rather versatile when it came to guitar tones. Nowadays, I’m really happy to have my Boss IR-200 on stage, because it makes life very easy. But if I play blues / rock gigs, I’d never be using that one, despite it being so convenient.
Another thing is, that there‘s a tendency in music to have something happening all the time. There are fewer instrumental parts in the songs and if so, they tend to be rushed and packed with notes. If you listen to the beginning of Pink Floyd’s Time for example, the band leaves space for the music and every single note to unfold. It creates atmosphere, suspense and finally relief when the drums kick in.
Danke für das Video Henning!❤
Gibt es denn Tube Amps, die du selbst für Zuhause empfehlen würdest ? Ich würde liebend gerne mich mehr damit beschäftigen aber ich frage mich, ob man diese ganzen Eigenschaften mit dem Tube-Amp haben kann, wenn man „nur“ mit 1Watt zuhause spielt (z.B. ENGL Ironball SE)
Perfect examples and explanations! This should be mandatory viewing before buying a modeling amp or a tube amp. Thank you for putting this on the Tube. Just think you might sway some young person into to buying a Marshall and possibly saving Rock music. 🤘🏻🎸
Oh……I forgot! “It’s only Rock n Roll but, I like it”
I get the most satisfaction playing through my Laney Cub Super 12 - there's just a different experience from using a valve amp in the room - but I have to admit that the best sound I've ever had on stage was using my Tonefox Elcaster with a modeller into the PA at a local festival earlier this year. Ironically, though, I find I do a lot of my practising and writing on electric guitar with it unplugged.
“The next note you’re going to play is going to be sooner than if you were playing with an amp in the room.” Brilliant and important observation to share. Awesome.
Spot on , on tour with Avantasia, the UA Lion is the core of the guitar tone BUT even though in ears are used by everyone, there's a non IR feed from the Lion going to a Boss Waza Tube expander that has the IR to front of house and sends a non IR 100w class A-B feed to a Blackstar 2x12 cab sitting pointing at the guitar players face for that "guitar -amp interaction" It just fills in that "thing" that feeling. I made a 1x12 monitor with a Celestion V30 just for that very thing. It's modeller to the audience but rock n roll for the guitarist
You are totally right i think.
I've build in my Home Studio a Setup to compensate this a bit.
My Tube Amps go into a Torpedo and from that i have a 20W Joyo Amp (FX Loop return) into a 1x12 Cab. I turn it on for big Chords and if i want some feedback on the recording.
Because the Feedback is then on the DI Track it also works for reamping.
I love Feedback for the End of Songs or if a Solo rings into the next part.
An amp, a room, hitting you in the gut = extension of my emotion. All of a sudden my slop also feels real. I think slop is also apart of vibe. I was just talking about this at all places after my moms wake Friday when some friends came to help me deal with the loss. My sons friend goes lets fire up the tubes and I was being lazy and go no.. then we started talking and i go. Imagine listing to fortunate son lined to the grid and Fogerty going through a sim. I think it would suck. We are castrating music. thanks for posting this. I needed it..
I am glad you did this video ...... more youtubers are micing amps again thankfully .......2 years ago a lot more people were depending on IRs and yes the sounds were more flat sounds more same sounding
I wasn’t expecting much from this video because there’s a whole lot of videos about this subject. However you really nailed it with your detailed description. I use an HX Stomp through a Fryette power station. I’ve tried FRFR, and straight into the board. I hated it. TUBE power amp is the only way for me. I wish Fryette (or anyone really) would make a small tube power amp.
I primarily home write and record. I own a Marshall for Humbucker distorted stuff, and a Vox AC15 for the chimey Gretsch, Fender, and Rickenbacker guitars. Having an amp in the room makes you react in time to sound coming out of the speaker. I am not going to be replacing my unpredictable lead guitar tones. But I got a BOSS IR2 recently, and I had great results finding sounds for rhythm guitars, bass, and even keyboards that allows me to dial in (and back) a sound that can fit in the space that compliments the lead guitar. I think it made my last project a bit less sludge-y. It’s also really good to test out ideas when writing so you don’t bother anyone.
IEMs, silent stages are dragging many of us kicking and screaming into the modeling world.
100% agree. I have plugins for home use. But in my rehearsal space with a 6505+ and a Marshall 4x12 and and Triamp mk1 with a 4x12 and a very loud drummer there is no comparison. You play freely you play (at least I do) with love. That sound just envelopes you. I find it difficult to write at the computer but riffs just flow with the amps
I absolutely agree! I always need like 20min to addapt when I play a loud amp again after 10 days using Amplitube at home. It just feels different. Its more difficult to tame, harder to shred but way more exciting! We need more bands using the best out of both worlds - modeler and a tube power amp. Loud stages sound better - no idea why - but thats how it is!
Yup. "Flatiddity" ❤️🔥🕊️🤘🏻
There's something "more fun" when I am using the amp, Vs playing through the Ampero original. The Ampero is insanely convenient, but I honestly feel disconnected from it. Whereas with the amp, it's like the amp "watches" my every move, but the Ampero has to be "watched", or checked upon. If that makes any sense at all.
You have put this concept across very well. Having played my Hayden Mofo live for 15 years I have just recently added a Boss GX 10 into the effects return with great results. You have to study how to use a modeller to get decent results and keeping a valve amp and cab on stage retains the thump. Great tone shaping and flexibility from a modeller which can aid in live performance. A very helpful video for those exploring the modelling rabbit hole.
Hello Henning! I see this as a part 2 of the last week RANT somehow 😋. I understand what you say and also I grasp the difficulty in expressing it. My short take on this is that you remove a part of the human emotional element when playing an instrument. This is more pronounced when you write the music, in my opinion. Another example is playing together with a drummer. I'm guilty of using programmed drums 😒 but I also rehearsed and composed with a full band, and drums in rehearsal room are savage! The whole equation of writing a song changes when you are faced with the brutality or lack of it in that environment. You might end up changing passages that are not loud/aggressive/smooth enough or too much so for a certain part of the song. To come back to your idea, yes, you would play differently not to mention writing with an amp in the room. I attribute that to the 'inflicted' physicality of the sound on the instrument player.
I perceive two crucial aspects of contemporary guitar production: recording in a control room with a tube amplifier in a live room, which doesn't capture any interaction between the live room sound and the guitar at all, and the use of in-ear monitors during live performances. In the latter case, physical interaction may still occur (if a cabinet is present on stage), but the sound is perceived in headphones through a microphone and preamp, and the brain processes it with a slight delay of several milliseconds. Add the demand for silent stages and we get a legitimate reason to use a modeler. Let’s set aside virtuosos who use cabinets offstage emitting sound in the opposite direction to the guitarist himself or intentionally isolated setups...
I totally agree with you. In my favourite album of the year the sounds are so imperfect, but it makes the music so spontaneous and alive. I don't think you can get this with modelers, at least not on the fly.
I played many years with acvamp2 and many people do not like it. I always played it throuhg the return of a tube amp ... And that made him live.. 🎸👍🤘
I love my Quad Cortex, it’s one of the best things I’ve ever bought for being able to play where I live. But if there were no obstacles in the way, I’d choose a real amp every time for the reasons you talk about.
To me it has been an educational thing, I come from a solid state world, since tube amps in Mexico were extremely expensive back in the 90s, they are not cheap now, but things changed. Anyway, modelers were a game changer for me cause I was finally learning what a JCM800 is supposed to sound, what’s an Engl Savage, etc… but outside of the convenience of them, I think we could all benefit from learning how to play an amp, wether tubes or SS, and realize how it has a lot to do with how you attack the strings, what speakers you use and how you adapt to the venue…
I still love my helix 😂 but my AMP1 iridium still wins when it comes to the experience of playing and feeling through a cab.
EDIT: I guess what I’m trying to say is, I think my goal is to be able to feel comfortable to use other gear and make it work. At the end of the day, I could be spending more money and time on learning the craft instead of gear whoring but what do I know? 😂😂😂
As I am still a beginner in playing electric guitar, I must admit, that I unfortunately cannot completely comment on what you was saying about the tone and the notes themselves.
But: as I was starting to learn playing guitar about a year ago, I was using plugins on my laptop. After some months that made me mad to always use the laptop. And so I bought a 25W tube amp (with power soak down to 1 W) and a 1x12 cab. And even as bloody beginner, this changed my world. I loved the feeling of playing. I cannot explain, what it exactly was.
Unfortunately, even on 1 Watt resp. with low volume, it was too loud for the other family members in our house due to the 1x12 cab. Especially the older ones. 😉
So I had to sell the amp and the cab again and used the money to by a stand alone modeller (a really good one - you mentioned the brand) and two monitor speakers. According to volume, it is no longer a problem. The sounds are really great. But it is really a different feeling than on the tube amp.
I am pretty sure, I will by this amp once again in the far future. But meanwhile I will use my modeller and have fun with it.
I think, it all depends on the needs and the environment.
Thanks Henning!
So, should we actually compose our music, or get initial composition idea at least, by playing a loud tube amp? I have access to a rehearsal space, however I admit I often just sit at home with a guitar, and yes, play through some sort of simulation (whether it's amp > loadbox > IR, or amp sim plugin), at comfortable volume etc. That'd be interesting to test what songs sound like when created at home vs. created in a place where loud is permitted.
This is one area where I feel Universal Audio's amp pedals excel. They do a great job of retaining that 3D sort of singing thing that you get with a tube amp, that harmonic content that, as you were saying, makes you want to let notes ring out and enjoy the space in between each time you hit the strings.
I couldn’t agree with you more!!!! There is NOTHING like playing through an actual tube amp live in the room. Leaning back on that cushion of sound.
i believe the unpredictability you mention comes with higher levels and it's not so much we dont take the modeler sounds in the room because of a lack of "unpredictability" but the other way around and we have lost that unpredictability BECAUSE we dont take the sound in the room with a guitar cab and the high levels of moving air that causes this effect because we have been spoiled by the convenience of having a modeler bring a 100watt master-at-10 marshall through a full stack sound in our ears through headphones. i believe if you isolate and mic a real amp and only play it like that, this unpredictability will be missing as well. or at least it will be much diminished and be at the same level that a carefully modeled digital solution like axe fx (with its 1000 knobs just for the "feel" of the amp) offers. thats my view at least
I got a tube amp, 2 Jazz Chorus amps, Boss IR-2, pedals and one modeler (Ampero 2 Stage) and FR12 for the ampless setup.
I still love my tube amp the best. I don't love the expense needed to recondition them (changing capacitors and tubes). My second favorite is my Jazz Chorus amps.
Not the same as tube but they move air and force you to play better using pedals because these give you the truest tone from pedals.
My least favorite but needed: Stage and IR-2. The IR-2 works best swapping out stock IRs. Then it feels like a real amp, but still doesn't given the FR12 still is too clean and doesn't feel or behave like an amp.
The Stage is too sterile and has too much stuff I will never use. It never works in the band setting currently until I hit upon a better setting in those conditions.
Bar none, I rather use a tube amp and a couple of pedals over the digital stuff any day. My back will tell me to bug off because it's no convenient.
I've been playing the "traditional" way for like 3 years now, but I always wanted a Quad Cortex because of all the flexibility and effects. Finally got one, plugged it to a friends FRFR cabinet and it sucked so many bawlls hahaha, I don't think it was a problem with the Laney FRFR cab, but it just hits different with a speaker. It's kinda hard to explain if you haven't play with tube amps, but now I use the Quad Cortex on the return of my amp and is a great compromise/hybrid system (for example, the clean channel of my 5150 is really bad, and the Quad Cortex takes care of that).
I have tube amps, mostly 100W half and full stack; FM9 MkII Turbo, Helix Floor. They all work great for me. If I could take a 100W half or full stack out, I would; it would be my Bogner Helios Eclipse.
My current rig of choice is a Dell Latitude Rugged Extreme touchpad tablet, Arturia Minifuse:1, KMI SoftStep2; I use BlueCat Audio's PatchWork to organize my patches; I have several virtual pedalboards in the SoftStep, and though i have several guitar plugins, I'm only using PolyChromeDSP McRocklin Suite. Into a pair of Alto TS210
Sounds great, no latency, easy setup, the rig (except the PA cabs) fits in a small backpack
We live in the golden age of gear for guitarists. The offering, quality and value is exceptional. Modellers and tube amps are not in opposition, they are simply part of the continuum of tools available to the modern player. It’s a question of use case and preferences :
(1) In October 2012, I saw Rush third row from the stage. Alex Lifeson was not using any cabinets. He used amp heads and Fractal Axe Effect. The sound was great and the show amazing.
(2) In March 2019, I saw Joe Bonamassa, second row from the stage. He used a bunch of miked amps. (These Fender Twins were LOUD…) The sound was great and the show amazing.
I’ll conclude by quoting my favourite lyricist (Neil Peart) : «…All this machinery making modern music, Can still be open-hearted, Not so coldly charted, it's really just a question of your honesty, Yeah, your honesty…»
diffrent mic set up?? real boomy and compressed this week... great content as usual
different room
Modellers are good for home practice. But if you can, use real amps in rehearsal when writing or perfecting a song. Also for recording, use a real tube amp and a second line to a modeller as a backup, but try to be inspired. Modellers are probably perfectly good for live work too, if you are just replaying what you have recorded. Just my thoughts…
Yeah but also we need to be careful with volume to not damage our hearing with real amps
I have 15 watt tube combo i had to put it in a room next to me to crank it
So i have a question, do attenuators keep the feel of an amp at lower volume or is the volume part of the room feel?
These thoughts also concern me. I use modeling at smaller gigs, but I miss the three-dimensional liveliness of analog sound and interaction with the amp. Nothing has motivated me to play and practice more than my small 5 watt Marshall tube amp with a nice analog Tube Screamer in front of it. Unfortunately, for larger gigs, a quiet stage is becoming more and more of a necessity, even though I can still use my Fender Deluxe Reverb more often these days.
I feel when playing real tube amp it amplifies the player and playing amp plugins feel like i’m using my guitar as controller to trigger the sounds from the ampsim.
Quiet down, everyone! My weekly show has started!
I cant imagine someone never have played through a tube amp but im sure they get the same feeling I got as a kid playing 1 for the first time,Im about to get my very first modeler and been playing for 45 years ,but im very curious in the difference like your describing
Totally agree, same with high output pickups, just kills dynamics in playing. But. Very big BUT. We've been there, and we'll never be again. Just new times with new sounds and new way of playing.
Learning and happy accidents happen more frequently when you have to work/struggle to get the sound. I think more than a few famous players prefer guitars/basses that make them work a bit. There is definitely something about being in the room with a great amp that's moving some air. Sadly, most small bars don't tolerate that any more.
Today I watched a YT Short with backstage scene from a Metallica show. It shows the James Hetfield guitar tech and James doing a short break. My blind eyes saw a running Helix next to James guitar tech. So also great and big bands use modelling. As I was the last time in the audiance in Hockenheim/Germany I did not recognice a difference between a real amp and the used modelling.
Cool vid with good points! I have yet to find a modeller sound like an amp in the room. The best sound I’ve gotten out of an amp lately was trying out a Friedman Little Sister. Just fantastic. Modellers are cool for what they can do convenience wise but I’m an amp in the room guy 🤘 PS as I type this and I’m playing my HX Stomp lol
Das ist absolut richtig! Ich vermisse noch heute den "Druck" eines echten Amps und die Interaktion in jedem Modeller. Mein Ton wird nicht mehr getragen. Ich versuche dies mit einer gewissen Kopfhörerlautstärke auszugleichen, ich kann in der Mietwohnung nur noch mit Kopfhörer spielen. Auch da kann man gewisses Feedback bekommen, ist aber nicht mehr unbedingt gesund für die Ohren aufgrund der Lautstärke direkt am Ohr. Ich versuche dies zu kompensieren durch gute, teure, Kopfhörer da ich der Meinung bin, das diese per se weniger Eigenverzerrung haben und damit unschädlicher für das Gehör da die sonst ständigen hochfrequenten teils unhörbaren Verzerrungen nicht mehr das Ohr belasten. Aktuell ein Beyerdynamic DT1770 Pro MKII, den kann ich nur allen Gitarristen empfehlen. Bei selbst noch moderater Lautstärke ein Mörderpfund, Dynamik und "Live"-Feeling, bin begeistert.
Digital changes the phase relationship of frequencies. And you hear the difference. Thats why the tube amp "restores," the spacial vibe of the music. It adds non lock step, phases that the digital took away.
Agreed 100%, you give space to the counterpoints of convenience too, but what is the actual solution?
Volume in the room changes the instrument yes but it also likely damages the ears of musicians - do we have to necessarily endure ear damage and shorten the time playing or indeed could we change the guitar design so it reacts the same way at healthy volumes? Perhaps also, playing to a more polished sound where the old studio additions are baked right into the box gives the guitarist less distance between what he makes and what the audience actually hears. Shouldn't the band play to the same sonic output as the audience ?
Great point. Just go jam with a drummer once in a while, feel the music.
I’m not a good enough guitarist to comment from experience but my ears tell me you’re spot on. Cheers mate👍
Very good and interesting thoughts, great video, thank you very much Henning!!
I saw Gilmour in Ricky channel talking about the wave of sound on his back when he engage the muff with real amps.. This fits perfect what are you talking about. Thanks for the rant. lol
I'm using a hybrid setup - "real" pedals and amps on stage, cab modeler/DI to front of house. I think everyone is happy?? 🌈💜
Is just music changing, as it has ever did. Some technicalities are being replaced by new technicalities. Music endures.
Gear4Music has a show room in Germany, too. Based in Mühlheim/Ruhr, NRW. Nice people there, too.
I guess this "rant" is kind of a followup to our discussion at Colos-Saal the other day. And if this is the case, I met the pro guitarist you are talking about later that day and he was mentioning your mutual amp tasting to me. He was talking about it like it was a revelation, like he had seen a burning bush and he was smiling like a little kid! To your question: Two aspects: 1. Tube amps 2. Playing loud. Back in the 80s I could not afford a lot of gear. So I got myself a tube preamp (Mesa Studio Preamp) and built myself a solid state power amp. This ran into a modest Laney 4x12. Being able to play loud enough to be on top of the drummer was already a game changer. I had to relearn guitar playing. Out of the sudden, you have to control the guitar differently. Mute those unplayed strings! All the little noises are exaggerated and become a part of your playing. While this power amp had more than enough power it never gave me that satisfying feeling I knew from other amps. When I got a tube power amp later, it felt so much better. And again I adjusted my playing a little bit. So I think playing loud is 70% of the difference and the other 30% are in the electrical behaviour of power tubes.
This is EXACTLY right, and finally someone is saying it. Thank you Henning ! But we live in an overcrowded world where they want us to live in tiny little very expensive boxes now, posing the hurdle of WHERE do I play loudly without creating problems for myself and others ?
Thing is though, maybe we do need the amp and the amp in the room sound, the interaction between guitar and amp, but rock is niche music now. It's the new jazz. And with that comes smaller venues. And with smaller venues come sound restrictions. So modelers it will be. Maybe the aging rock dinosaurs of the 60's and 70's can still play venues so big where they can turn up their real amps and lean into the sound, but us lesser gods will be lucky to play bars and small clubs. No Marshall stacks, boosted AC-30's or dimed Fender Twins for us anymore.
I say let the Artist have dynamic control of their TONE. Why? Well, at a recent gig, for example, the FOH guy said I should get in ears... for a small bar gig... I just rolled my eyes and said F that! At the end of the show, he complemented me on how I used my volume knob control on both keyboards and guitars to get the right blend with he rest of the group... it was a great night. Not bragging just saying that I got the biggest applause out of the crowd when band members were announced for a reason... I care more about how I and the band sounds than most, if not all, FOH guys. Though... I do have to agree, modelers, etc. definitely have their place, especially for touring bands on the meager budgets they're allowed these days! Musicians have to fight for their right to sound good, for themselves and the crowd... and they appreciate it when you make them feel like you do up there on the stage... like a Rock God you're playing for that moment! 😎🎸🤘🎹🎶🎵
I think this is the reason because I need delay in everything digital, because I missing the room feedback!
Great, now I miss my Marshall half stack. But that's been gone since the late 90s. I was just having this debate with myself trying to decide if I want to get an amp or a modeller. Amp shopping it is.
Yes, rant! Let me just grab a fresh coffee.
Back in the day, instead of an add on like the Inflator, we used toilet paper over the tweeter of the NS10s. One sheet dampened just enough high and mid that when you finished mixing, and too off the toilet paper… boom! The magic happened! 😂
Toilet tricks
I have always felt that while digital modeling sounds close to the real deal, there is always something missing. I feel it's even worse when the modeler is recorded direct and even real speakers and mics are removed from the equation.
When it comes to manipulation of harmonic feedback, that's the biggest thing I take issue with. It then requires additional special equipment to replicate like an e-bow or a guitar with an on board sustainer system. Even then, I feel like the player needs to learn how to use this equipment so they cab correctly replicate the string response of a guitar naturally going to feedback when in the room with a live amp.
Your words so resonate with me and I agree and understand you in a level that if i was in such an agreement and understanding with a girl (even with 30 minutes discussion), i would propose to her and marry immediately!!!
Its the transformers in valve amps that make the difference. They are only there because of the valves though.
You have a point. Of course, recording yourself as a band is so easy if you go DI with guitars an bass and Midi with your e-drums, all the sounds are software, but standing in front of a 412 with a cranked amp... well it instantly makes your balls grow twice as big, to put it that way. And no matter how many Abasis and Hensons this era spits out, Hendrix is still the best, not because of what he played or could play, but because of how he played it. Modellers surly contribute to that, but there is a thing I noticed long time ago, when modellers weren't so popular and sounded crappy.
A lack of attitude. When we startet making music. during the Green Day driven Pop-Punk Hype, we used to party backstage. We drank cheap beer, smoked weed and got to hang out and make out with girls that wouldn't even have known we existed, if we didn't play guitar or drums or anything. That's what people used to call Rock'n' Roll. And it started in the mid 2000's when all the Student bands startet playing Emocore, and it continued with the Djent and Prog Stuff, at least until the mid 2010's, No drinking, only vegan food backstage, they still smoked weed, but besides that they were only sitting around, warming up and looking sad, when we started partying, they looked at us with disgust. They don't want us to comment their lifestyle, but they can't hold back commenting ours: "Well maybe you should stop caring so much about party and show and instead learn to play your instrument better!" Listen, I know I'm not a virtuoso. I am in fact a very mediocre player, but as Glenn would say " I'M PLAYING FUCKING MOTÖRHEAD-STYLE ROCK'N'ROLL, MY PLAYING IS DEFINITLY GOOD ENOUGH FOR THAT, MAYBE EVEN BETTER THAN YOU WOULD BE ABLE TO PLAY IT. AND THAT IS ALL I WANT, I JUST ENJOY BREAKING FREE FROM MY STUPID AND BORING OFFICE JOB FOR A COUPLE OF HOURS AND GET ALL CRAZY AND WILD, SO LEAVE ME ALONE AND CALL THE SUICIDE HELPLINE TO CRY A BIT LOUDER YOU DUMBASS!!!" ( read dit out with Glenns screaming voice in your head)
True, but it can't be seen in a bubble. Those times were 50 years ago - many things have changed in that time. But, yes, your observations are part of that shift - both physical and attitudinal.
Thanks for your work.
I agree. When you say the modeler is 97% as good, and the effect is 97% as good, etc. Let's say you have 5 things that are 97% as good, suddenly the final product is 85% as good. I also don't think modelers are 97% as good. If you strum one chord and just try to see if it sounds the same, but I agree the interaction is completely different. I remember the first time I used a plugin I could feel when I screwed up, but it sounded good through the plugin. The plugins don't seem to amplify your mistakes or the small details of your playing.
I understand they're a tool and tube amps are expensive, loud, heavy, etc. But I haven't changed my mind that tube amps are better if you have the option.
I totally agree. Much of what I've heard in live performance and youtube reviews does lack the thump and unpredictability of a live amp. Like you mentioned, the balls are missing. Its flat and not 3D. Modelers are definitely useful in the studio but the magic is lost in live performance. Its boring to watch as well. Everything is too perfect. Silent stages sound like karaoke sometimes. Live vocals over canned guitar. Yuck.
I will just tell you I have Kemper Profilers and Helix Floor units. They are good tools. I run the Kemper Profiler through two 250 watt Line 6 PowerCab FRFR units. This is my main and go to set up. The interaction between the guitar and amp is there are all volume levels. But the interaction is different. But that's tubes vs transistors. My firsts Amp was a 62 Fender Bassman . My only tube amp these days is a 15 watt unit. There are venues that won't even let you have an amp on stage these day. That' pretty freeking sad.
Never thought about it before , you are right . Back in the day when I was making myself deaf with a jcm800 and a 4 by 12 in a 5m by 5m rehearsal studio in the 80's , I loved to hold notes and manipulate them with fingers to get different feels and then let it feedback like a bstard. Well done Henning you have defiantly struck a note😁😁
I was kind of thinking the same few weeks ago. The best solos in history don't have as many notes played as today usual jam track nowadays.
I got used to modellers. I allways hated to load extremely heavy equipment. Years and years of touring made me think so.
Hello, that's exactly my feeling. I'm only happy with my 150W amp and my 4x12 cab in the room. I need to feel it, the modeler is not for me. Maybe because I'm 50 and what has educated me musically was not digital? It's not a question of not being connected to digital because I'm a IT engineer but precisely, I have this need to have something more organic on the contrary ... What you describe when we play on a real amp/cab is what I feel ...
I get what you're saying I enjoy playing live through amps and in fact I don't even use a modeller, just plugins for recording. I like my monitor to be my amp, not wedges or in-ear monitors. However I don't know whether there is magic in tube amps in that I enjoy even gigging my Katana. Yeah my tube amp sounds better. But why do I enjoy my Katana equally?
Enjoying the X88IR through stereo amp, but when wife is home or asleep the headphones are great. Hope more tube pre amps come out like the Soldano. Having options like IR, Direct, power amp or headphones with pre amp tubes is great.
Why doesn’t Fractal or the other companies make their digital modelers with a pre amp tube section? Expand on the JMP-1, ADA MP-1, Mesa Triaxis etc. The ability to choose the amount of pre amp gain stages with all the effects all in stereo 🤘🏻😎🤘🏻
You know what could potentially be really awesome, but also a terrible idea at the same time?
A pedal board tube amp.
Obviously it would be a chunky piece of gear, but when you think of the size of like a Fryette Power Station or the KSR PA-50 compared to a Helix, FM-9 and such, space-wise the poweramps themselves are still smaller than a flagship modeler from most companies.
But imagine having the flexibility of modeler: amp selection/effects selection/routing capabilities… but adding an onboard tube power amp rather than a solid state class D. Which I believe is what we will get sooner or later with the AmpX from BluGuitar.
The obvious drawbacks would be stage use would likely cause more damage than being safely placed on a speaker cabinet, but I've also witnessed entire full stacks falling over… though probably not as often as a stompbox getting beaten to hell or getting water/beer spilled on it.
I personally have had an issue with space and had to sell all my Synergy stuff and my Syn-50 head, so I got a Tonex and captured every module I had before I sold them and have a Boss GT 1000 core for the effects, which in my eyes those 2 units together I'm still under 4ms of latency and I really try to get the best feel I can out of it.
I just got the Blackstar Amped 1, which I know they ripped off the power amp design from BluGuitar and that's a completely separate discussion, but I will say at 100w mode with the power amp sims added… it turned that rig into something I was never able to feel unless I was cranking up a tube amp and I barely turned the master up. I was floored at how good it sounds and how it felt in the room. The chugs just felt so meaty and it pushed air from the speaker incredibly well. I personally don't think 99% of people would be able to tell that it wasn't a full blown tube amp if it wasn't doing a side by side comparison.
I'd be interested to hear how it compares to a full blown tube power amp honestly because any video I've seen of the Amped 1 as a power amp for a modeler always sounded good, but it does not do it justice until you hear it in the room.
Keep Rocking! EARTH FIRST!
The dynamics you get from a "guitar" speaker are unique and hard to replicate with PA/FRFR rig. Bring back the full stacks and just mic the kick & vocals for everything outside of stadium shows.
“Not a dropped 8 stringed A chord” is also a key component. As well, imagine a digital Motörhead. Unthinkable. Risible.
Great post!
I think there is some loss in the unique "character" of sounds in Modelers and other "perfect" but standardized pieces of gear. It is often the "irregularities" in gear that inspire the special creativity of being in the moment.
Another challenge is that in having so many sounds and gear emulations available, we don't have the time to learn each one in depth like we could if we had less gear.
And lastly, Modelers can easily produce much higher fidelity outputs than analog gear, but that can make tones too clean and clear, and hard to dirty up. Even with analog gear, just look at all the Pedals used to dirty and distort the original signal. I use an HX Stomp, and finding ways to dirty up tones in a pleasing way is a lot easier on old analog gear. At least, that's what I recall. 😎
All the solo Tik Tuck guitarists have probably never experienced being in a basement playing with a live drummer, bass player and another guitar player. Just jamming out. It’s sad. In the same way it’s getting rare to see a group of kids playing soccer or baseball at the park just for fun.
"If your eyes could see with the same sensitivity that your ears can hear, you'd be able to see bacteria without a microscope."