Climb Safe: How to belay with the ATC
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ส.ค. 2024
- The ATC is a dynamic belay device. How does it work? How is the rope inserted? How do brake hand and guide hand work together for taking up or paying out rope? What failures should one be aware of when operating the device? The Safety Research Group of the DAV provides anwers.
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This is so not safe!! Don't slide or "tunnel" your hand up the rope on top rope belay, that is you letting go of the rope!!! If someone falls while you haven't got control of it, they will drop and you'll probably panic and take your hands away to avoid getting your hands sucked up into the atc.. There's so many reasons why this is terrible and needs to be taken down
The belaying technique shown in the video is internationally accepted by experts and professionals in the field including UIAA and various alpine associations.
As a matter of fact the „hand-over-hand“ technique is not used for advanced sport climbing and competitions any more.
Furthermore, many investigations showed, that in case of a fall the belayer is able to grab the rope fast enough, when you tunnel the rope correctly. Your hand always stays in contact with the rope and the natural reaction in case of a fall is to grab the rope (not taking your hands away).
The DAV has been teaching this technique successfully for more than 15 years now.
The hand over hand technique for taking in slack is extremely prone to failures, especially if one also factors in any kind of distractions (tangled rope etc.) that the belayer might be confronted with. Tunneling up the brake rope is safer. Even more safe is to use a belay device with assisted braking. For top roping I wouldn't recommend a tube style device anyway.
@@MA-wk2vs those factors (tangled rope etc) would also apply to tunnelling. The only failure that differs is if the belayer is not in control of the rope. If you never take a closed hand off the dead rope, there's no chance of failure due to something happening to your climber whilst you're belaying. Opening your hand and sliding it up the rope means you are not in control of the dead rope and that if something happened while your hand is not in closed contact with the rope, there's time for things to go wrong before you can react. Since the most common and helpful natural response would be to tense your hand and squeeze the rope, why not just already be doing that so you can focus on your climber? Some people might naturally panic in some other way (eg putting hands out), so teaching them to always have a firm grip of the tail teaches them the correct reflex response. Sliding your hand up the rope moves your hand toward the gear, increasing your chances of your hand being sucked into the device during a fall or lowering off. Your logic is flawed.
@@theyclimb9214 That is simply incorrect. Tunneling is of course a certain risk factor. But it is less risky than switching hands, which is more prone to failure, especially in beginners. Tunneling is more intuitive so that the belayer can focus better on the climber. And also any kind of distraction doesn't lead to failures as quickly. During tunneling, squeezing the dead rope is an intuitive reaction in the case of a fall. The amount of control during tunneling, when done correctly, is sufficient to catch a fall. Whilst having both hands on the dead rope it's also harder to keep your balance if you get lifted up by your falling partner. Most people would hold onto the rope with both hands intuitively and might hit the wall in way, that they let go of the rope. With one hand on the sharp end of the rope it is easyer to maintain balance, when getting lifted up.
Placing the hand on the brake strand directly in front of the device is always a bad idea. This applies to tunneling and switching hands. I have seen quite some people switching hands in a way, that the 2nd hand was directly at the device.
At last for both techniques it's a tradeoff between different riks.
You aren't being too clear here for people with less experience. Don't you literally have to let go in order to grab on to another point of the rope to keep belaying? Even if you are trying to be helpful it really seems like you are just yelling and screaming. Be more clear please.
People from the U.S. coming here and hating on the technique, despite it being used in a lot of places in europe and this is a video of the official german climbing association. Tunnel method is safe and more efficient and smooth for lead belay.
I belay by pulling the brake line up. That's what I was told and this video says otherwise. What do you think is best?
@@Ryan-es5fj as long as you’re not pulling it completely vertical and the rope contacts the grooves in the ATC it’s all good. What you don’t want is to be pulling it up so far that you lose friction.
Tbh if you like belaying like that you’d probably prefer using a grigri over ATC
Agreed. I find it so much better for managing slack quickly as well which to me makes it safer. I’ve always done it this way and learned it this way but at Climbing gyms in the USA they don’t want you to do it this way. I’ve almost been stripped of my belaying privlages once when a friend was doing a hard sport climb section and my brain defaulted to this method when I was quickly trying to manage slack when my partner was trying to attempt clipping into a QuickDraw a few times. I’ve gotten better at the standard way here now but for sport routes I still hate it.
Yeah, and people drunk drive all over the world. That doesn't justify it as being better though. lol
@@shikamaru281281 This is a very stupid take. As if US belay technique would be driving sober and german technique would be driving drunk... Slinding method is a tested and widely used technique that is safe, convinient and efficient. The irrational fear about it in the US is just not backed up by facts.
Learning how to Belay next week so thanks for some of the tips on the video! :)
Imagine being a renowned climbing association making a video on a proven belay technique that you yourself proposed and got added to the uiaa site and people still bitch without a single clue 😂
Yeah its just on how you learn it. I can understand the reasoning always have the break side on break is safer, but for me this movement is way to unituitive. You have to juggle your hands around. The method shown here is way better in my oppionion. Especially when you have a fast climber in toprope. Until I have my guide hand down and back up again way to much time passes.
Also the break hand is never not in control with the break side. You slide your hand up. You always are in control of the break rope. You just dont squeeze it tight. But that is no problem.
hehe
I don't mind that some experienced belayers prefer the tunneling method.
But it feels weird to teach is at the 'standard' method to beginners when there are more secure and safer options.
Pbus techinique seems to be the normal method.
Like what ? Can you send us some links ?
Investigations by major European climbing associations revealed that the tunnelling method was in fact safer as well as easier to learn and execute correctly for beginners. That is the reason why it was introduced as the standard belaying technique taught to beginners.
It's unsettling to see how much people without any expert knowledge are agitating in this comment section. But that's TH-cam for you, I guess...
@@Vicitoriachi Okay. Where are these "Investigations by major European climbing associations" then?
Hmm, this is the first I’ve ever heard of this technique. I understand it may be tested and approved by whatever organization but I don’t think there is any way to argue that it’s safer than the two handed method? Surely that half second when your hand is not gripping the rope could lead to disaster if timed wrong.
" but I don’t think there is any way to argue "
Unless you know the claim that it is 'internationally accepted' is wrong, and I am guessing you don't, then probably that is just your ignorance.
@@alexanderSydneyOz Maybe a misunderstanding. "Internationally accepted" doesn't mean "safer", it just means "safe", which is fine. I'm emphasizing that the two handed is safer than this method, and I haven't seen (and I can't think of) an argument that would support one hand being safer. I mean just think about it and watch the video. You are releasing the brake for a fraction of a second, where in the other method you are always braking.
Sure it has been thoroughly tested and researched so it cannot be safe? Are you even listening to yourself?
This channel and expert village should collab lmao
If its approved by the relevant German climbing association, then its fine.
There is more than one way of doing things& the German climbers and alpinists have been doing this for quite a while
I bet all the negative comments are from people that have never climbed outside of a gym
"The brake hand is in control of the rope at all times"
Demonstrates the exact opposite.
vimeo.com/80477504 (Advice from the manufacturer disputes your comment).
You dont need to have a tight grip to "be in control". Tunneling is safe and efficient.
immediately starts belaying wrong
Using this hand technique would give you a severe talking too in my climbing gym. Just a split second of your hand not being on the brake side of the rope could lead to disaster.
source?
It might come as a surprise to you, but there aren't any desasters caused by this in German climbing gyms despite the fact that virtually everyone belays like this. Even beginners don't have any desasters using this technique.
People in other countries aren't complete idiots. Believe it or not, but proper research has convinced the German Alpine Club to introduce this as the textbook belay technique some 15 years ago.
Lol and im sitting here thinking one end goes through 1 hole and out the other hole. Not the same hole 😅
figure 8 does the belay too
Imagine thinking you know more about belaying than the DAV lmao
Remember PBUS
2:03 this is the dangerous part that is done wrong in this video, you are supposed to bring your left hand under your right hand and grabbing the rope AND then proceeding to drag the right hand up after the left hand is securely grabbing the rope. This insures more safety if someone were to fall during this specific period of time.
1:41 the FK is this!!
Pull down to atc > hold with bottom hand > top hand to center of rope below atc > bottom hand to very bottom of atc > finally top hand back over the atc
The breaking affect only work is the rope is always held below the atc with a firm grip
What you are showing is how to end someone because your hand will either let go to avoid burning or being crushed into the atc and in both cases the person on the other end of the rope hits the ground
Where does the manufacturer state that ‘right hand people use right side?’
So they can use their dominant hand to catch your fall 😂, I pray for anyone you belay
Sounds like this video needs to be redone or taken down. The video appears to be a beginners type of tutorial yet the consensus from experienced climbers seems to be that this is an inappropriately advanced technique to start on for beginners.
Maybe take this video down before it hurts someone.
There's 100% concensus that tunnelling is a safe technique for beginners amongst the safety experts of the major European Alpine Clubs. It is based on research and not on some "feeling" of experienced climbers.
My gym would fail this person for tunneling/letting go of the rope
Very unsafe. This could actually get someone killed.
Why ? If you are going to make a comment then at least take the time to back it up with some sort of explanation. I am here to learn. And, quite frankly, I find this kind of intellectual laziness, while common, damned annoying.
@@kshred3043 One thing that tends to be 'frowned upon' is sliding your hand up the brake line. People often prefer to ensure there is always a hand fully grasping the brake line (ie., hand-over-hand).
I like to slide my brake hand when i use a GriGri - as I trust the device and my skills - although I'm not allowed to use that method in my gym.
One thing I can say is: it is objectively safer to maintain control of the brake line 100% of the time. And safety is paramount!
@@twen7yseven The demonization of the tunnel method in the US (I think) is juist wrong. This is a safe method used in many places in europe and is thought by our domestic climbing association. It is even considered safer for lead belay bc it is smoother and equally safe.
this video tutorial is more for a grigri than a ATC....
This is so dangerous. Maybe it's accepted in Germany but in the UK, climbing centres won't allow you to drop to these standards and insist with hand over hand for correct safety.
As usual, an army of know-alls who confuse 'what I am used to' with 'the only way that works'.
Personally, I am going to run with The Safety Research Group of the DAV, over a bunch of rude kok heads.
Jeez this terrible belay technique
yea, he wouldn't pass a belay test with that crummy technique.
Why ? If you are going to make a comment then at least take the time to back it up with some sort of explanation. I am here to learn. And, quite frankly, I find this kind of intellectual laziness, while common, damned annoying.
@@kshred3043 You shouldn't just slide the right hand up the rope, cos you're technically releasing it for a short moment during which the person can take a fall. Instead, you should grab the bottom of the break rope with your left hand first, then slide the right hand up, then get your left hand back on the other side of the belay.
@@alessandromasullo4658 Thanks for taking the time to respond. It is very useful for me (and likely other beginners as well). I guess the right hand slide advocates believe that they can grab the rope fast enough if necessary. Although the sliding technique seems to be widely depicted on youtube, what you wrote makes total sense. It will good to keep this in mind when I begin lessons with an actual instructor. Find out just how qualified they really are.
K Shred It is a wrong response though. True it is a very common myth by the people not using this technique, but evidence - as mentioned in the posts - clearly suggest otherwise.
From my 20 year experience, belagers avers to this safe method do not know what they are talking about, as they do not understand the dynamics correctly.
Don’t be fact resistent and study the science behind UIAAs recommendations and not someone merely repeating outdated arguments...
Heck y!
Worst belaying job ever cant beleive they made a video.
I swear with explaining climbing tools on youtube steep by steep reading right out of the owners manual people like you will still bitch...
@@Squids_Vlogs they have every right to bitch, the guy in the video never once held the brake rope secure with his left hand while sliding his right hand up. Awful belaying job.
@@baeguevara354 I agree entirely. Also it doesn't matter a damn which slot the rope goes through.
@@baeguevara354 This is actually a very common belay technique. It just isn't usually taught in gyms to new climbers. But, it a perfectly valid and safe way to belay.
@@arcadegamesify Still looks hella unsafe to me but I'll take your word for it. I'm a relatively experienced climber but only at bouldering, I go top rope climbing rather infrequently.
THAT IS NOT HOW YOU BELAY
Worst belay method I’ve ever seen
There are a couple of things I really dislike about this video. Firstly, I'd dispute the suggestion that dynamic belay devices without grooves don't work with modern ropes, per-se. They work fine with modern ropes if (a) consideration is given to the diameter of the rope and its compatibility with the device, and (b) it is being used correctly by a competent belayer. More importantly, it seems ludicrous to be advocating a method of belaying in training video that is so 'niche' and open to being misunderstood by novices. With an experienced and competent belayer, using a modern belay device with braking grooves, it is probably safe enough to use the 'tunnelling' technique whilst bottom roping. It is totally unnecessary though, when the 'hand over hand' method is both more foolproof and more versatile; being the technique that you would use when actually top roping, such as when bringing up a second on a multipitch climb. It's good that people look at ideas, but it seems that in this case it is promoting a new (and potentially rather dangerous) idea just for the sake of it. I shall not be showing it to my students except as a demonstration of what not to do.
Three detailed answers are necessary here:
1. The grooves issue: it is true that even tube style devices without grooves do work good enough in most situations - as long as the belayer doesn’t make mistakes (which, of course, should always be the case - but in reality we see different things happening …). If you listen to the text in the video it is explained why we recommend using devices with grooves: because the ones without grooves cause a „relative low brake effect with thin ropes“. It is proven that almost all tubes without grooves - and also tubes with worn grooves - amplify the belayer’s hand strength less than tubes with good grooves. In extensive testing the Safety Research of the DAV has found out that most setups also work safely even if the belayers make one or two minor mistakes (which should never be made - but in reality we see that they happen - e.g. not paying attention all the time or having the brake side hand(s) too far up when taking in slack, etc.). These minor (but not so rare) mistakes usually do not impair the safety of the system as long as the main parameters are not set very close to their limits: rope diameter on the rope side, brake force amplification on the device side, weight difference on the climbers‘ side, etc. It is too complicated to discuss these things in a „how to“-video. That is why we decided to recommend devices with (good) grooves. If you are interested in a more detailed publication of our findings check this out: bergundsteigen.at/file.php/archiv/2019/2/24-33%28untersuchungen%20zur%20fehlertolereanz%20der%20koerpersicherung%20mit%20tube%29.pdf
2. The „hand-over-hand“ method (part 1): in most parts of the world, the „hand-over-hand“ technique is not used for advanced sport climbing any more. This is just a matter of fact. If you think I’m wrong I suggest you have a look at a belayer in a competition. This is probably because - in modern sport climbing - slack has to be taken in very quickly quite often e.g. when the climber cannot clip the rope into the quickdraw and drops the rope unexpectedly. Speed Climbing is gaining popularity as well. We observed that many beginners were struggling with the „hand-over-hand“ method in gyms, where even beginners can climb easy routes pretty quickly on toprope. Also experienced belayers sometimes when slack needs to be taken in quickly. The novice belayers do not have any problems taking up slack quickly with the method as shown in the video on the other hand. This is why - at the DAV - we have been teaching this „new“ technique successfully for more than 15 years now. About a year ago this was also discussed within the UIAA amongst experts from all over the world and the decision to publish this method on the internationally recognized website of the UIAA was the result.
3. The „hand-over-hand“ method (part 2): when body-belaying a second climber with a tube, the „hand-over-hand“ technique is necessary! But: the „British“ method (as we would call it in Germany) of body-belaying the second climber is only taught outside of the alps still. And also outside of the alps the method of belaying the second climber from the belay station (not from the harness) is becoming more and more common - especially with the growing number of routes that are equipped with bolts.
Always your hand below the angle and you can perform any stunts.
Thank you @alpenverein for taking the trouble to give such a detailed reply. I think it highlights the differences between two very different types of climbing. As one who practises 'Trad' climbing (where the leader places protection), but has little interest in 'Sport' climbing (on bolted routes, or at climbing gyms), I welcome your clarification.
For additional clarity, I would note that what you describe as 'body belaying' (belaying from ones harness, as opposed to belaying from a piece of fixed protection) would be referred to as 'indirect belaying' in British parlance. We would typically refer to body belaying (taking the rope around the body, and not using any belay device) as predominately a winter mountaineering technique, especially for bringing up a second climber. In the UK tradition, 'direct belays' are generally only used where the rope can be taken around a rock spike, etc, where again, no belay device would be used. Nowadays such would only be used to protect a second on easy ground, such as when scrambling, or on a descent route. I'm sure you would agree that you would never take a direct belay using a belay device attached to a single piece of leader-placed protection! I'm aware that this is a common method used on fixed gear in the Alps, but most British climbers operating in such an environment will consider bolts as being just a fairly bomb-proof piece of gear.
Take this video down.
This is not good belaying technique.
Why ? If you are going to make a comment then at least take the time to back it up with some sort of explanation. I am here to learn. And, quite frankly, I find this kind of intellectual laziness, while common, damned annoying.
@K R Thank you for the explanation. That makes sense.
You state that "People can comment whatever they want here dude" and yet you call me out for doing exactly that. Do you see the irony ?
FWIW, whenever I make a statement or post an opinion on TH-cam, I endeavor to justify what I have said with an explanation or provide a reference. I also endeavor to write in coherent English complete with correct spelling and punctuation. That my friend is just showing respect and common courtesy. In other words, I try to contribute to the community. Yuan Kin (and the others I called out in this comment section) apparently do not share this attitude.
vimeo.com/80477504 (Advice from the manufacturer disputes your comment).
@K R "I'd suggest getting annoyed by people not acting like you want, is your issue. " There you go again with the irony. Or is it lack of self awareness ? Or just plain hypocrisy ?
Actually, all rhetorical questions so don't bother to reply or expect a response. I will be too busy holding on to the rope at all times to reply.
@K R you are a twat
Please remove this video !! it's all wrong!
vimeo.com/80477504 (Advice from the manufacturer disputes your comment).
Poor technique.
Why ? If you are going to make a comment then at least take the time to back it up with some sort of explanation. I am here to learn. And, quite frankly, I find this kind of intellectual laziness, while common, damned annoying.
@@kshred3043 many people are taught different methods. They do what called tunneling. The problem with this technique is since one hand is up and one down you "slide" the bottom hand. Vs in the us and many other areas they "pass" hands by keeping both hands down and handing it from griped hand to other gripes hand. Imho I like passing because the rope is always on brakes and you dont need to grab a slipping rope on a fall that can burn you. Both methods work well if done correctly. But I prefer passing as it means the brakes are always on.
@@modernwar2ghostrp 👍 Thanks for taking the time to clarify. Not just for me but on behalf of the other neophytes who might be reading.
carabiner on wrong and terrible technique
youre kidding............
Worst belay method I’ve ever seen😂
he does not know how to top robe belay jeez
Why ? If you are going to make a comment then at least take the time to back it up with some sort of explanation. I am here to learn. And, quite frankly, I find this kind of intellectual laziness, while common, damned annoying.
Please don't belay me!
People from the U.S. coming here and hating on the technique, despite it being used in a lot of places in europe and this is a video of the official german climbing association. Tunnel method is safe and more efficient and smooth for lead belay.
Learning how to Belay next week so thanks for some of the tips on the video! :)
Have fun :)
figure 8 does the belay too