Why It Would Take $200 Billion To Clean Up America’s School Buses | True Cost | Business Insider
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 16 มิ.ย. 2022
- Only 1% of America’s iconic yellow school buses are electric but converting the whole diesel fleet would cost nearly $200 billion. To cut emissions and spare children from the dangerous fumes, many feel it's a price worth paying.
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Why Turning America's Yellow Buses Electric Costs So Much | True Cost | Business Insider
School busses are probably the best application of battery electric buses, as they don't run all day only before and after school, giving ample time to charge overnight and during school hours.
Terrible timing to release this video now. Those stated cost prices for BEV busses are probably double now. BEV price increases have far outgrown ICE price increases.
What about field trips and runs in between
@@575nonya3 rent a traditional bus
@@aeusem88 inflation
When evs are impounded they are put in a seperate yard because they catch fire for no reason 😂😂
Yesssssssss what a great idea 😂😂😂😂
i like how they keep the classic styling of the old buses for the new fleet
If it ain’t broken, don’t fix it. Especially with Freightliner, the M2 is a popular, though antiquated, design. International (the maker of the referenced dirty bus, with a now obsolete and discontinued MaxxForce diesel) has recently updated their exterior appearance on their DuraStar (now MV) platform for the entrance to electric powertrain, their interior being updated in 2018.
Also for safety reasons so people easily recognize a vehicle full of children
@@jaysmith1408 how do you know so much about buses? independent research or are you in the industry?
@@osiris654 well both really
Between the flat nose, and the dog nose buses, there is pros and cons for each design. For exampel, the placement of the engine for maintenance (not sure what pro a dog nose bus would bring in this case if it is electric), the placement of the front wheels behind or in front of the driver, the position of the engine also affects the position of the rear tires, this all affects handling, there is also noise, (no issue with electric though), space (flat buses have more interior space), approach angle, and more. Makes me wonder what the decision was behind using conventional buses, perhaps it was easier to make electric buses using existing inventory, which reduces cost?
I’m a school bus driver myself and my district has smaller special need buses and also large regular education buses as well. for me there’s nothing wrong with having both electric for the special needs and diesel for the bigger buses because we all do field trips as well and drives distances that electric buses won’t keep up with.
The Holbrook Unified school district can't use one on any of the routes as there to long for the EV bus. my trip to school from the time i got on to stepping off at was 90 mins there was 4 another stop before me and most of the student on the route. on the start of winter break are bus blown off a pipe for the turbo to inter cooler. bus driver had no choice but to nurse the bus the rest of the route. 1 mph up the hills and 15 mph on the flat.
For longer range trips you’ll likely see what we saw with a lot of earlier EVs where a small gas or diesel generator can run to extend the busses range, quite dramatically. Even better, despite still being a oil-fueled engine, such range extenders are way more efficient and require far less maintenance as they run at a consistent RPM to charge the battery, and are able to get more energy per gallon doing so than if they were driving the wheels directly.
As an example, on my BMW i3, the Range Extender can give me an extra 100 miles on 2 gallons of gas - 50 MPG - while a similarly sized car might get 35 at best.
Over time, we’ll likely see more dense batteries - just like with cars - to say nothing of Hydrogen Fuel Cells, which have a huge potential for heavy duty, long haul trips.
Their called "short buses".
@@spammerscammer we referred to them as special need buses because of how they are equipped with wheel chair accessiblity car seats and so on and so forth used for special need children vs regular education.
@@spammerscammer Speds
I'm all for public transportation being as efficient and clean as possible. I definitely remember the fumes and that these are cheaper to maintain in the long run. Now if only our society was not built around cars so children could bike, walk, electric scoot, to school. Public transportation to school must also improve.
exactly. it would be amazing to walk places or ride bikes. but our cities infrastructure around the country focus on roads for cars instead of roads for cars and people. its so annoying
US does not have any corner shops or coffee shops in residential areas. Or food trucks in residential areas
@@keriddunk1520 sure it does. Get out of suburbia and the sticks.
You mean like the Netherlands. I have personally witnessed these school of children biking in the Netherlands. It's wonderful to see and healthier too!
If we see that Asthma cost the US $56 Billion a year, why don't we look at all the costs the inactive lifestyles cost the country and build infrastructure differently?
@@keriddunk1520 shops should be mixed with residential areas. Not doing that poor use of resources. Mixed development should be allowed in the United States again. I live in Michigan in the Detroit area where our car dependency is ridiculous it takes 30+ minutes to bike one way to the closest store and a other 30 minutes to get back.
Electric buses are more logical to be produced than electric cars. Rather than transporting a few people, buses can transport way more, and is used to benefit the public most productively.
Low key tho if the country focuses on electrification of our public transportation it's be a big better
@@joseescobedo7899 reminds me of Japan
You also need a ton of batteries you can build cables on roads and run electric busses on them because they run on a single route for ever.
@@Kigoz4Life with that short of a range, using electric for trucks is not practical! Many OTR trucks run around 400 miles per day. Many team driver trucks will do 800-900/day.
@@travisfitzner5067 But most trucks are used for shorter runs. The OTR trucks will just have to wait for improved technology.
At 5:04 it talks about cheaper operating costs, and that they might pay for themselves; I wish you had given more details on that (instead of focusing so much on the initial price tag). What's the average price per mile of diesel vs. electricity, what are the different buses' expected lifespans, etc.
Who cares just tell the feds to print us some more money 🤑🤑🤑
Yes. Id like this to. Though it could very a lot
In my state a school bus has to be retired after 200,000 miles or 17years. Bus averages 12,000 miles a year at roughly 8mpg.
At current prices for diesel that is $8,250/yr. Prices flux so it's hard to say but maybe $100k over the lifetime.
That price should come down for an E BUS and it'll benefit the fuel budget as it'll be extremely consistent. Closer to $300k for an ebus seems like that might be the magic break even point.
I’m also in va and this basically a eletric company here in va gives us grants to afford them. They have to be on the road for 15 years and they have a extended warranty for 15 years. Each are 330k with the va spec. To order these the grant specs that we have to scrap a diesel bus and it has to have seatbelts. They get about 130 per charge. If you have three charging stations it takes three hours per bus. They usually do better in city instead of a county terrain do to mileage. Until they get a better way for more mileage per charge it won’t work to well.
Well less moving parts means less chance of breakdowns
Which happen frequently with diesel buses
All I can think about whenever I see these vehicles is the greasy hand mechanic that has to deal with the maintenance and parts required to keep these things on the road.
Anyone certified to handle a Electric system that could randomly burst into flames if not handled correctly, makes more per hour, per year than anyone at the school district…..
most of the people who work at the school districts feel that they are far too powerful to make less than some greasy mechanic.
I wish them the best of luck, I doubt very seriously that a school district will be willing to put up the money required to hire people qualified to work on these giant exploding batteries.
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When I was in high school back in the early 2000's. My school district (Capistrano unified) had one electric bus and my route was the lucky one to use it. But out of the 2 years I used the bus we only used it 2 times if I remember. And the last time we had to transfer buses because it broke down or battery drained.
I never rode in a school bus in my life. In my country, we either walked or took the bike (yes even in primary school) and for farther schools such as high schools, we took the train
Unfortunately, a vast majority of the US is not set up for that kind of travel.
It's uniquely American because of their city planning.
So you have to drive to get around in the US
@@melancholymelodies89 It's certainly setup for at least biking. Plenty of people biked to school. It's just, that only a small percentage of kids are willing to bike.
@@npip99 It's not even so much a willingness to bike. A lot of it is safety.
@@npip99 the US is very car oriented, in Europe is safe to cycle to school, in the US, bikes are the most dangerous modes of transport
The only reason why I say its a bad idea is because if your waking up late and your not on the curb you won't know if that bus has pass or is already next to your house lol
We have clocks, you know
That’s on you tho
I mean unless its an old ass bus without ac its not that loud anyway
lol I was thinking the exact same thing
Thats a really stupid reason to be frank. It’s your Responsibility to look out and be ready.
My only worry is it like the early Priuses where they mechanically total themselves because their batteries go bad within 7-10 years. Can we support changing the whole fleet in that time frame and what is the ecological cost of lithium. Tho by that time we may have come up with better ways of recycling lithium from used EVs.
That's a pretty low-ball estimate. The technology has changed drastically in the past 20 years. They're not NiMH batteries any more, most are LiPo. They're also actively cooled and their charge and discharge is more tightly controlled, unlike previous generations. EV batteries on newer models of car could likely outlive the comparable gas engines. I'm no Tesla fan, but all the data suggests their batteries could easily last 20+ years.
Yea, there's a big difference between a Prius battery and a modern EV. LiFePo4 batteries still have something like 80% of their charge capacity after 3000-5000 charges.
With an average school year, that would be over 16-20 years and it would still have 80% range of the original. Then they can swap that battery for whatever new battery technology is available in 20 years. While the old battery can be re-used for supporting the local power grid long before it's recycled.
The batterys will probably only last 10-15 years or so, despite what anyone claims. Tesla uses the latest in battery tech and they only get around 6-10 years. This is definitely not a good financial move by any sense. People also forget infrastructure costs, i.e. installing charging stations, retraining maintenence staff, retooling maintenance shops etc. Bad move overall. As to re using old batterys, i worked in the energy sector for a bit. We don't want old batterys. We would throw out basically unused backup batterys every 4-6 year cycles, still at 95+% health (I snagged a bunch from the bin for myself lol). I highly doubt they want batterys with 20% health, liability and install and maintenence are higher than buying new, or maintaining old.
I think the real problem is that there aren’t any easy alternatives to driving for kids to get to school
If America was willing to waste all of that money in the invasion of Afghanistan,then they can find the money for this.
Best comment ever! Totally agree.
Same with ukraine
Dude so true. Sometimes I believe our government does not want us to be developed mentally, economically
@@JailEnforcement you act like Russia isn't committing war crimes
@@boredbread5918Who cares, not our business
I think there’s a real good chance that this could make the change for most school districts however with more rural areas you’re going to need to rely on Diesel engines to get the mileage you need, that or they could build smaller region size school houses for these areas
I wonder if the smaller more efficient buses would be better options as those areas likely have smaller school populations?
@@antoniomromo This is subjective as every rural district is different but what you see is that they just use a smaller fleet, so a similar ammount of kids for bus. You would have to order more buses that are smaller at that point and even then idk if the range could make some of the larger rural treks. The technology is getting there though
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" the mileage you need" being how much, exactly?
That’s what the video said 🙂
Around my area in NY im starting to see alot of propane powered school busses which is nice because you can barely smell anything coming put of them where as you can always smell a diesel bus. I will say there should be hybrid versions because i remember in school with field trips and sports games we would travel pretty far sometimes.
I think that it would be much more economically viable to convert busses to electric, as opposed to building them from scratch
Good point. There's so much room in the engine bay for all three of the ESC, brushless motor, and much of the batteries. If more batteries are needed, plenty of length along the bus's long body.
The emissions from the mining, production and transportation of batteries creates more emissions than a we expel from manufacturing and running gas or diesel engines.
@@rppiii6737 this is a good point, but I imagine that we will have alternate energy storage pretty soon
@@olivercollard8767 It is *not* a good point. Its a complete falsity. For that statement to be true, the entire world wide network of policy makers, scientists and environmentalists would have be all complete fools.
@@beyondfossil I agree
You don't need as many stations for electric. You primarily charge at home.
I don't think even rural buses are driving 500 miles a route. Idk about like... Wyoming. But in rural Ohio, I think our buses probably did around 80 miles a route. Was like a 90 min route (for a while I was the last one off in afternoon) and going 55, with stops ... Maybe less than 80 even
Its entirely possible or rural routes to expand beyond a Electric bus's range actually, out here where I live in Kansas, there are a few bus routes that top around 200 miles, but we are a smaller county. Factor in that you have traffic, numerous roads you have to travel on, varying conditions and its not hard to see why electric buses arent there for every application.
Also, in reference to buses, unless your rural your parking that bus in a major lot.
@@sterlingodeaghaidh5086 fair enough, for longer routes they could keep diesel
That same bus will run each route multiple times per day most likely… once for 1-5, then middle school, then high school… perhaps in rural.
@@dirkfromhein Not in my area, K-12 was on one bus, one route.
@@dirkfromhein depends on the district, out here everyone gets picked up the same time so it’s one trip.
In poor communities this will never happen property taxes won't cover the cost unless it's mandated by the federal government and in that case we will probably be taxed somehow for it.
No 'probably' about it, the money comes from us the citizens whether through taxation, inflation or outright confiscation.
Uhm. They got rid of busses within 2 miles and turned the rest electric. Thats what they have done in the poor districts. its been going on since I was in middle school and I graduated high school 5 years ago.
Many of those communities have already stopped bussing for cost and safety concerns. They are no longer able to manage dangerous student behavior on the buses, regardless of cost or type. Also, if monies are provided by state or local goverments, these same at risk and low income school districts need to be monitored to ensure that the funds are used correctly. There is a history of school district officials misappropriating funds. See Detroit, see Prince George's County, MD, see Baltimore, MD, etc
@@spearamintwolf6225 Yes? Isnt that the entire point of taxes. You are paying money so that you get something in a much better return, since the purchasing power of the government is much better. Many Americans have this concept that paying taxes is a bad thing. Its not.
@@Sol-os5pk First of all the 'purchasing power of government' is all from the people to begin with so we should have a say. Then there's the little issue of waste. Is it cost effective to replace theses busses with the much more expensive electric? I'm not saying it is or isn't just that perhaps these things should be considered. Finally, and most importantly is there really a NEED to replace them? By the way, no, I don't buy into the climate alarmism thing either so don't bother going there. Yes, I care for the earth, but it's not ending in 10 years like the alarmists have been pushing since the 60s. We should make sensible environmental changes, but not radical ones.
They don't have to replace the whole bus, they can just rebuild it.
Way greener and probably cheaper
Exactly they should make a program where they can send Thomas their buses and them put the electric parts in the bus and take the old parts out
More practical to convert the existing buses to CNG, depending on age and condition. The district I graduated from was using buses that were over 20 years old at the time.
I thought that there were some very efficient pollution collecting systems for Diesel engines. Might that be a better way to start.
In many places in the US the buses don't even run on diesel. They run on CNG, and propane.
Link please
@@YURIKAccessories look it up lmfao. Is this common sense statement hard to believe to you?
Where I live the garbage trucks, city trucks, and school buses run on cng and propane. Not like it makes a diff on environmental impacts. At least it’s less harsh than ev’s still.
propane is a byproduct from the refining of natural gas and and crude oil
so cng seems like the best option to change to
@@ivanvelasco6323 Maybe..., Downside is that it may drop in power, It's even more ineffective when the bus itself already is heavy, plus all the children on the bus. Resulting the bus being prob 2x slower
@@ANormalLemon have you ridden a CNG bus? In natural gas configurations at least for buses they're equiped with much more power a typical diesel 260 hp Cummins, and these have a 300 hp natural gas engine.
Ok for cities, not hearty enough for rural areas.
My question is: Why does a diesel bus cost so much? They're pretty simple boxes filled with cheap seats and an engine.
Because government contracts
Same as why it cost NASA so much to build rockets compared to SpaceX etc
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Why are we talking about doing a compete 100% switch from diesel to electric? Obviously that’s unrealistic, so just do it gradually. So maybe all new buses are electric. Over the coarse of 20 years I’m sure a good amount will be electric vs. diesel.
The proper question is to ask why so few kids not walk or bike to school?
The answer is most parent’s don’t feel comfortable having kids walk or bike to school due to North Americans horrible obsession of a car centric lifestyle.
@@ryanchan6122 I'm pretty sure my parents wouldn't have want me to walk or bike the 30 miles to get to my high school. XD
@@ryanchan6122 depends how far the school is buddy
While not realistic to do an overnight switch, we'll have to have a higher degree of electrification than what the normal lifespan of the old (and new) diesel models premitts. We will need a small procentage diesel still for the long distance routes, but can ill afford 20 yrs for the bulk of the fleet to change if we want to curb global warming.
@@morgainebarkefors9806 When they can make electric vehicles that have less carbon footprint than diesel vehicles, then the switch would make sense. HOWEVER, they still can't. Every electric vehicle being produced today generates a larger carbon footprint than the one created by not only manufacturing, but operating an ICE vehicle for 20 years. The industry experts all know this, but the EV manufacturers and green energy lobbyists all ignore that fact in order to push EV's that are worse for the planet than cheaper, ICE vehicles.
Man the thomas built buses and international buses are iconic! although the internationals crescent shaped headlights are iconic and futuristic even after 10-15 years!
also the name saf-t-liner c2 is etched into memory just above the the door
Imagine if this was invested into decent public bus routes instead. Children could just take a regular bus, and adults in the community could also make use of the bus network! Rather than having this massive amount of bus infrastructure in place, but only run those buses twice a day (once in each direction) and have the buses sit idle in a parking lot for the rest of the day. The rest of the world has solved the problem of getting children to school without needing a bus network dedicated just to schools.
Most countries have smaller schools that are closer to where people live. I think it would be more sensible to invest more in a public transit network but use a normal bus as a school bus as they could still be used the rest of the day.
In my country it is like this that most kids in the cities go to school by walking or with bike and minority uses the public transportation. In countryside it is usually postal bus that works also as the school bus in the morning and afternoon. Then I also have been to country where school busses were used by everyone since the traffic was terrible, no walkways and public transportation was not great.
This only makes sense in areas with a high enough population density to utilize it. Otherwise you end up polluting more by running buses all day for hardly any passengers.
@@giglioflex Yeah, you would need to have 3-6 passangers to offset CO2 emissions from a icu car with a single passanger, if it's a large diesel bus. Therefore electric bus would be better. Best would be to have no cars or busses
how would that Make sense out of cities?
Rest in peace , school bus sound 😢
400000 Dollars? Insane.
They are more expensive than diesel though Thomas’ electric buses are the most expensive. Blue Bird, the largest school bus manufacturer offers many more sizes and variants of electric school buses which are slightly cheaper and they just showed off a whole new electric platform which has the batteries designed into the chassis more like an electric car. This will increase the range, and lower production costs. The electric buses featured here are modified diesel buses with electric motors and batteries in place of the engine and because of this, they are more specialized making them more expensive. Costs should come down as manufacturers further develop these technologies.
We sent a billion to Ukraine. We got it
@@amtrakatl why not buy coaches and use them? Dedicated school buses that cost this much yet look like they are made for prison inmates is odd. Coaches should cost less and have interiors on the same level as any coach you would pay to travel on. That’s the way it is in the UK. A top of the range coach here costs 200k used with a little use, you could easily get 4 year old coaches plaxton, Scania, Mercedes’ etc for just over £100,000.
@@Horizon301. Coaches require a whole different set of parts and knowledge to operate and maintain. Also, the school bus is designed to be rugged because kids don't always follow the rules and sometimes damage the bus. A seat cover is is something that can be quickly and easily replaced. Reupholstering a seat, not so much.
@@Horizon301. School buses are highly specified for what they do. Everything about them from color, stripes, height, spacing and design of seats is designed around kids safety in mind. They are by far the safest vehicles on the road. Also, they have a much smaller wheel base so they can navigate down tight streets to reach all of the houses, streets coaches can’t go down. Coaches and school buses are designed for two different purposes and they can’t really be interchanged.
As a school bus driver I’m am stoked for this to be the norm!! At times you can’t hear the kids nor they hear you and it can be extremely difficult gauging if kids are choking or being bullied and things like that.. stoked!!
The Fumes never bothered me and I rode the bus in the 90’s and never had any “Heath issues” 🙄
Not everybody is going to have health issues.
The cost of the bus should go down when battery technology gets better in the future.
Its a good idea when you travel on pavement. Rural areas in the north its not a good choice yet because of temp and distance.Newer diesels have little to no smoke comeing out the tail pipe.A 3126 cat is a very good choice.
I live in a very rural part of Virginia not far from Fairfax and they would have a hard time having a full electric fleet. The bus I used to ride was at least 100 minutes in the morning and around 90 in the afternoon. And many of the bus drivers live in rural areas so they don’t keep their buses near the schools, that means that the electric company’s need to install chargers at their home
From the title, I thought it would cost $200B to actually CLEAN them. I was catfished 😂
Did anyone else notice she had no seat belt on, which has been proven fatal in wrecks
Hopefully there are plans to offset the larger demand on the power grid by installing solar panels. If not then the busses are just running off coal.
This is a common misconception, people think it’s pointless having electric vehicles because they’ll run off coal anyway, but that’s not relevant, electric vehicles are far far more efficient than combustion cars so even if the the electricity used in the EV was produced by 100% coal and you drive a mile in each type the combustion would’ve produced more carbon into the atmosphere. As there is a lot of waste of energy in combustion engines, as the law of conservation of energy states energy cannot be created nor destroyed but only converted. And when combustion engines produce energy that will turn into kinetic energy to spin the wheels a lot of it is lost by sound and heat energy being formed and then when the car breaks, all that energy is wasted where in an EV the motors can harness that energy and put it back into the battery. I hope you learned something, governments really need to do more to teach people more about EVs as there are a lot of misconceptions
@@jeffbob7219 LOL. You don't don't know nearly as much as you think you do. I can tell you looked at some pro EV sources and then go out on a mission to try and "teach" people things you know nothing about.
@@sdvten please tell me what I got wrong, if I know nothing about it.
I’d say save the diesel ones for long road field trips and electric ones to pick up and drop off kids from school and take only street roads also saves your battery for all day then.
is it really that bad for long road trips? I know that in most evs you can easily drive 5 hours after having to do a 30 min break, which is what is done normally anyway.
Put pedal-to-alternator mechanisms at all the seats so the kids help charge the things and sleep a bit better.
I used to love the diesel exhaust in the 80's. That's why I sat in the back of the bus.
Hopefully you don’t get any complications from that
To charge these buses during the day it will be great to have rooftop solar panels on the schools or the garage building and if possible the buses themselves.
I am from Australia and we have one of the highest rates of rooftop solar in the world.
This ☝️
Congress here in the US is owned by the big oil companies. They don't like solar because they haven't figured out how to tax the sun.
@@melancholymelodies89 here the electricity companies have figured out how to make a profit from solar power. They pay a pittance to house owners who have solar panels and then sell the solar power generated and fed into the grid during the day at a higher price.
There's absolutely no reason why the roofs of those buses should not be covered in solar panels. A vehicle that size could easily have 2,000 watts of solar panels.
It would be expensive and require more maintenance
There’s nothing like the sweet smell of diesel in the morning
As a student, I hate walking through the buses. The fumes are horrible!
How insane HORRIBLE are those old American diesel powerd school busses?
The way they talk about how much they polutes, you get the impression they have a old, inefficient diesel engine from a WW2 warship or something
...which they do.
15 liter diesel engines kind of are that bad
Modern diesels are very clean.
5 times worse range i don't see how this is the future, the efficiency needs to be a lot better and faster charging
A regular school bus is 130k but an electric school bus is 400k? Something is fishy here. A battery which is the most expensive part of a conversion doesn’t cost 270,000. Ford electrifying the F150 can still sell them for 45-90k. The bus companies appear to be either profiteering public money to transition to EV and/or sabotaging the transition by inflating the cost
Ford sells those trucks at a loss to get ahead of the market
@@DanielDos2 The current price of batteries is $100 per kilowatt hour. A 200 kWh battery which should be plenty for a school bus should cost $20,000. Electrical motors are cheap. The frame is the same as the ice model. Where is the other $250,000 in cost coming from?
The extra price is for Insurance cost !!
@@Jeddin Not sure 200kWh would be enough for a bus to go 130 miles. My car has 38kWh to go 170 miles and the bus is far less aerodynamic not to mention the incredible weight.
The gauntlet 🤣. I grew up with those buses and worked in a garage with my dad. I'm 27 and my lungs are fine.
bruh thats my highschool😂 Love that diesel smell, almost as good as a basement smells
They have doubled in price, and still gotta use gear oil,grease,leather is this really what “the green new deal” is to overload the power grid
I don't even wanna think about the cost of replacing those batteries when they go bad.
Ngl sitting in the back of those yellow busses back in like 2002 you could feel the diesel in air. Never really thought about it. But its funny to think about it now.
I mean, we sent $50 billion to Ukraine in the span of ~30 days. Just imagine the country we could have if we spent that at home, instead of on weapons.
Then again, I really don't know why we can't use an intermediate design serial-mode hybrid with a microturbine or a high boost small DI diesel. EV mode in neighborhoods, hybrid mode on main streets. Still can plug-in as that infrastructure gets built out.
Highly agree , would hold onto the Diesel engine as it is far more reliable in weather and got mileage
Way more than $50 billion.
you cant just multiply the price for a single bus with the current productionnumbers as they get cheaper the more you build.
The price of the diesel bus hasn't gotten cheaper because more have been built.
No they don't. The price of lithium. Cobalt , copper, etc. Goes up all the time.
@@briandumas9975 Large scale purchases are much cheaper, than single purchases
Pretty cool to see my old highschool at minute 1:58 as the bus drives by. Small town of Livingston in Montana.
As a child I would have a killer headache sitting in the back of the bus everyday in those cancer boxes.
I see this video as unrealistically optimistic. We spend more to stop our children from breathing diesel fumes....but now need to generate more electricity, and who's living next to that source of pollution? And have you looked into the lives of the miners and their families, the ones who provide the rare earths for the batteries? We are just dumping the pollution off onto someone else. I don't see that the benefits outweigh the costs for electric buses.
LOL FAIL! Diesel engines dump fumes into the faces of kids. HVDC is extremely efficient even at 200 miles away. The literal distance that you can put between people and power stations massively changes the health damaging effects. Soo no it's nothing like just transferring the emissions onto someone else.
Lithium Ion Batteries use nearly NEAR Zero Rare Earth Metals. Other than tiny adulteration into Electronic PCBs & Integrated Circuit Chips.
Some of the most mining done for BEVs is done in AUSTRALIA for Hard Rock Lithium, Nickel & Iron. A purely professional high paying mining industry with very strict worker conditions maybe a bit nanny state.
You fail at basic facts. You are rattling of the same overused misinformation script. I'm not an optimist, i'm a pessimist engineering & chemistry nerd.
@@Neojhun Lmao do you not also realize most 3rd world countries mine minerals like cobalt and are being exploited by bigger countries like China. Most cobalt mines in the world are owned by China in the Congo with poor conditions and poor salaries. Before you start yelling WRONG WRONG WRONG at people maybe do some research?
@@Neojhun Lithium ion batteries use Cobalt, Lithium and for the BMS computer uses fiberglass for the PCB, Gold, Platinum, Copper, Silver, Iron clearly you don’t know how computers and electronics are manufactured. Most people not in the computer industry think not that many rare earth metals go into electronics but that’s completely wrong.
The power plants Futher away are not in the street. They have but smoke stakes that put the poluition Futher up. Not to mention there muuuuuch cleaner. They have very advanced filters and scrubbers.
Electric busses are really nice. They are super quiet and have a little more room inside over a diesel bus. They are made of far more exotic materials and are quite fragile compared to a diesel bus so repairs can be very expensive. Also a electric bus costs about 1million US dollars. At least the transit busses do. I don't think diesel school busses cost that. In addition some municipalities are finding it necessary to have 2 electric busses to fill the role of a diesel bus through the day due to the battery not lasting the day, so a second bus is used to finish the runs for the day. The chargers take a while as the batteries are massive. I'm guessing each charger is around 50k per bus
Instead of focusing on good education they worry about getting rid of diesel
Both are a cause for concern.
@@someblaqguy Battery mining will do a lot more damage than any diesel will. Learn facts, not what your leaders tell you.
@@linkfan95 what does that have to do with my comment exactly? I didn't say anything about batteries ya doofus
@@someblaqguy literally said both are a cause for concern, ya doofus.
@@willnicholson18 because most people understand how to budget their money for wants vs. needs, unlike government
What’s the size of and how are the batteries designed, just where the engine use to be? I feel like given the size of buses a 300 mile range should be achievable.
The extra range adds a tremendous amount to the cost and weight. They should definitely start out on cities where there is more idling on shorter route and work their way towards rural.
So how are we getting these huge batteries? And how do we recycle used batteries
Electric public transport has bigger and better implications, and i will say it makes more sense than electric cars. This is because a bus in this case has the time to charge up properly without running into issues like whether the power is 120V or 240V.
From my experience most people only drive max 3 times a day(to work and home plus extras). EVS are charged at home(cars are in the garage for 95% of the time anyway). I dont know what issues you had with the power supply, here setup was quick and without issues
Hmmmmm, been doing this for 35 years. School districts never have any money to spend on anything so lets see, $400,000 for 4 buses or $400,000 for 1 bus?
Given the cost of diesel this becomes irellevant
It’s almost as if the richest country in the world has terrible financial priorities and should spend more money on education?
In this case, The power company is paying for the cost difference, so it's not like the school district loses out
I think there needs to be a trial run before switching completely. May try running electric busses in small groups in different areas and different weather and climate for say 5 yrs and see how long they last. How the batteries last over time and how different weather affects them. I mean dessert heat could cause them to explode or Maine winters could kill them. Long trips would be an issue. Say your taking field trip or could be to a nationals event. The range would be issue. My other concern is if something happens to bus and they are stranded. How long will heater last in winter time. I mean a diesel bus broke down to idle for hours while a electric bus could only last an hour(hypothetical numbers) until help could arrive in case of a crash or snow storm or any other issue that could arise. These are all examples of issues we need to field test before we jump feet first. If the batteries only last 5 yrs due to weather conditions that's approximately $160,000 we as tax payers would have to pay to replace the batteries in one unit let a lone a fleet especially if you have to place 100-1000 all at once. That's a lot of money. Then there is disposal of batteries after they are depleted which is an whole nother issue because just like the batteries in your remote they do die and the chemical that are hard to dispose of. I an not against electric vehicles. They have a time and place. I feel we need more information and experience over long term and how we are going to deal with them for the next 100-200 yrs not just the next 5 yrs
That would be great if all districts where it was feasible got a few electric buses and tested them out.
You don’t think they’ve done the math? They know how long the batteries last and if weather is an issue, because millions electric cars have been on the road for 25 years. These are the same principal just bigger. And electric buses have been around already for a few years. This is NOT new or experimental.
Yeah electric busses have been around a few years now. Electric busses are really nice. They are super quiet and have a little more room inside over a diesel bus. They are made of far more exotic materials and are quite fragile compared to a diesel bus so repairs can be very expensive. Also a electric bus costs about 1million US dollars. At least the transit busses do. I don't think diesel school busses cost that. In addition some municipalities are finding it necessary to have 2 electric busses to fill the role of a diesel bis through the day due to the battery not lasting the day, so a second bus is used to finish the runs for the day. The chargers take a while as the batteries are massive. I'm guessing each charger is around 50k per bus
from what i've seen there are labs that test vehicles, replicating weather and driving conditions. stress testing a single buss against different weather conditions at a facility (or several) is a lot more efficient than a 5 year trial. these facilities have only gotten more advanced and can give accurate estimates for how a vehicle will hold up over time.
In all my high school years of sitting in the back back of the bus, I’ve never had an issue with fumes unless they were coming from other students. There’s this thing called Diesel exhaust fluid, makes it safer to breathe. Not saying school busses shouldn’t convert to electric, but the fumes from modern busses aren’t bad at all. With that being said, I’ll gladly buy a used diesel bus for a project 🙃
Yea me (27) and multiple generations of millions of kids grew up riding in and walking past diesel busses for many years and we good 🤷🏼♂️
And generations before thought millennials were being too coddled and look at society now 😂
By replacing the old Diesel engine of the old busses with a new 2022 one would probably already reduce consumption by 50% and also reduce pollution by even more. And it would be cheaper option than electrified.
New ones just design then electric.
...and it would be less impactful for the environment than electric, since the HUGE impact of digging metals needed for batteries is way bigger than snake oil musk wants people to know.
@@wybuchowyukomendant it's a clown world that will die a painful death
Liberal 🙄
@@wybuchowyukomendant 95%+ of a battery can be recycled and turned into another battery. So when you cite mining effects know that number is much lower over time
How about trains and better pedestrian infrastructure? These buses are probably much heavier and will destroy the roads faster and I'd imagine cost more to maintain too. The depreciation of all the involved assets will cost the taxpayers a ton in the long term compared to creating alternative modes of transport that have all the design and infrastructure problems solved already. Imagine if U.S. cities actually had safe sidewalks/bike routes.
Most cities don’t have school buses and just use public travel or just walk
The US is mostly suburban. It’s too spread out for light rail like subways to be feasible in most communities.
Thank you! Electric vehicles are a patch solution that won’t solve the root of the problem. I’m so happy sustainable city planning is becoming a more bipartisan and mainstream goal
nt
Better pedestrian and bike routes can be offer as an alternative option, but that shouldn't be our only choice going forward. Depreciation on equipments is expected, all across the board, the issue is how long these electric buses serve us reliably and safely with minimal expense. This is fleet management. If your concern is only about money, then we should get rid of cop car and fire trucks altogether, and have our police and firefighters carry guns and fire extinguishers and be rotating 24/7 on various public transportation or biking to emergencies.
Yeah outside of rural schools this is a great point. Some rural schools like where im from ranges arent long enough yet
I’m from Fairfax county and I’m so proud
Might work well because busses usually go to a depot after most runs
I'm actually building an electric school conversion... that will charge off of 16 250watt solar panels on the roof
This would be a great idea if it wasn’t so expensive
I wish you would have researched more. If the Total cost of ownership is cheaper, the initial starting price won’t matter. What cell type is used? LFP or NMC? What are the implications on maintenance?
Electric busses are really nice. They are super quiet and have a little more room inside over a diesel bus. They are made of far more exotic materials and are quite fragile compared to a diesel bus so repairs can be very expensive. Also a electric bus costs about 1million US dollars. At least the transit busses do. I don't think diesel school busses cost that. In addition some municipalities are finding it necessary to have 2 electric busses to fill the role of a diesel bis through the day due to the battery not lasting the day, so a second bus is used to finish the runs for the day. The chargers take a while as the batteries are massive. I'm guessing each charger is around 50k per bus
2:23 the more important number is "life cycle cost." For example, what is the cost of diesel or EV bus after 20 years
State law where I lived, and I assume its the same or similar i every state on this- required school buses be retired at 100,000 miles, so electric or diesel buses are probably only going to be used for up to 100,000 miles before they are junked- that cost has to be figured in, if the diesel is $130,000 and the electric is $400,000 then every mile driven costs $1.30 and $4 just for the original vehicle purchase cost.
The 76 Ford Bluebird 70 passenger bus I bought used from a bus company in 1986 for $1250 had 105,000 on it and it was only ten years old, by that point the 361 cu in gas engine had already been replaced with a smaller 330 truck engine, the rear axle had already had to have some kind of major work on it, the clutch was worn and the 6 tires were worn- size 9 x 21-1/2" as I recall. It also needed new brake shoes, boosters, master cylinder, I also remember trying to get parts for it , auto parts stores didnt carry parts "that big" while truck parts stores didnt carry parts "that small", so these vehicles are in a strange niche between auto/pickup, and big rig trucks/tractors/farm machines.
100,000 miles of the abuse school buses get is more like 400,000 miles worth of wear on every part of the drive train, steering, axles, engine, transmission. The radiator cost $500 to replace in 1998
this really bothers me. Electric batteries are supposed to require replacement or refurbishing every few years, why is this not being factored in? What about the maintenance of the charging station (including potential attached solar panels a lot of schools seem to want to do?) How does it compare to the costs for diesel/gasoline/CNG busses?
@@HobbyOrganist since electric vehicles have fewer moving parts than ICE ones, I could easily see electric buses being given a longer lifespan than diesel ones
What is the environmental impact of mining all the minerals needed to make the batteries? Where does the energy for charging the batteries come from? Is there infrastructure in place and how much does that cost? Are fossil fuels used to create the electricity? What is the bigger plan?
Mining equipment burns a ton of fossil fuel to mine the battery minerals. And yeah , batteries store electricity not produce it. Great questions!
There isn't enough lithium on the planet to do electric cars long term in just the US I expect.
take those questions and type them into google
Ted Talks Graham Conway. He goes in detail how EVs are touted as zero emission when the fact is they are the worst carbon generators on the road.
«It takes a typical EV about one year in operation to achieve "carbon parity" with an ICE vehicle.
If the EV draws electricity from a coal/fired grid, however, the catchup period stretches to more than five years.
If the grid is powered by carbon/free hydroelectricity, the catchup period is about six months»
What I love is how insane they make that number sound, $200,000,000,000. Just withdraw the next 3-4 $46,000,000,000 payouts to other countries in support of more war efforts we shouldn't be getting involved in, and this could pretty easily be done
Only 6 billion sent to ukraine was in actual money, the rest was just the cost of the equipment that was sent, which was sitting in storage for the most part anyway
If only we didn't spent $300 Million dollars a day for 20 years on a pointless war and actually used that money to improve our country instead of boming kids in tents
As more companies make electric buses, price will go down.
Didn't mention how much replacing the batteries would be.
Alot less than the cost of gas and oil used in the same span .... batteries if they are lithium iron phosphate will have about 5 year min life
Do you factor in replacing gas engine when you buy an ICE car?
@@TomCook1993 An ICE engine doesn't need to be replaced every 5 years. In fact, you can expect one to run 200k miles easily, while there isn't an electric battery with a life span even remotely near that.
@@dustinmiller7278 Even if the bus battery costs 160,000$(40% of the bus's cost) to replace every 3 years?
@@nobodyspecial4702 either does an electric battery. There are still first Gen Prius batteries out there working just fine.
Not something that can happen overnight for sure but with increasing fuel costs EVs usage in things like school bus fleets will continue to grow. In the urban/suburban environment it removes a lot of diesel exhaust from the mix so even if the power comes from not so green sources it is much easier to scrub power plant exhaust than it is individual vehicles. Since electrical generation and distribution is moving toward more renewables and grid storage it will probably get cleaner over time.
Energy gets more expensive too
@@paxundpeace9970 direct electricity can be sourced from other places including renewable sources, and electric vehicles then to be over twice as energy-efficient than their ICE counterparts
Diesel exhaust happens to be not as bad compared to gasoline according to several studies. Diesel is also a more energy dense fuel compared to gasoline which is why it’s used but that part is irrelevant. Diesel is still cleaner and less harmful then the fumes and emissions that power plants produce to charge those busses. Besides it doesn’t matter which is cleaner, I’d much rather my kids on a diesel bus in the event of an accident so they don’t get burned alive when the batteries combust.
@@DieselDog1982 that’s why I think they make more sense in fleet operations. Fixed bases, known daily route and vehicle performance is monitored. Suburban commuters driving 30-40 miles a day are easy, most can replace the average charge used off a 110 outlet overnight. Apartment dwellers unless they have secure parking are SOL as are urban street parkers. Most people don’t make long car trips regularly so save the argument. Average commute is under 40 mile round trip. If you’re one that must drive long distances then surely an EV won’t work for you. Long term with more and more generation coming online it may make sense to use the power electrolyze hydrogen and have fuel cell vehicles. EVs do have the problem of materials needed for their batteries that fuel cells don’t.
Yeah brilliant idea lets replace 5 small carbon footprint machine with 1 huge footprint per each EV and claim efficiency and saving the environment
I'm a school bus driver. Buses are constantly breaking down (internationals and thomas) mainly and they're made on 2021/2022 i can just picture the constant mechanical failure these buses are going to constantly be in lol. Bluebirds are made to last btw
I know there are safety considerations but I wonder if school buses could be used for classic public transportation during school hours, cleaning a bit more. Maybe it would help with quicker ROI if they were shared with public transportation entities.
They don't have enough range. They work for school buses somewhat because they have to charge, but in cold climates the range is half, running heaters is goes down more, after 10 years it goes down more. You could use them for school buses in winter and city buses in summer maybe.
In many rural areas the infrastructure is not suitable for the amounts of electricity that EVs will need to be charged. Also the batteries are more expensive to replace when they go bad than the vehicles. I support EVs in urban areas, but for rural areas like mine, they have no practicality.
What is the medium voltage in your region?
I agree, but hopefully, soon, the infrastructure will be better and be able to support these EVs
@@w-4258 , voltage isn't the issue, it's the amp load requirements
@@travisfitzner5067
Which is why I asked what the medium voltage was. But you would rather avoid the question while simultaneously revealing that you apparently don't understand what a transformer is, or what it does!
But for some reason still have to have an ill-informed opinion on the matter.
Why not be wholistic and require, say, solar panels for that charging station?
Obviously the transition would have to take at least a decade but just to convert 50% of busses, it's absolutely feasible at an annual US budget price 9.6B
And more of my income taxed toward this garbage.
@@rosskiger27 🤣 talk about inserting a grumpy boomer comment
@@rosskiger27 Well, either that or we'll pay the down line ten times over in damages from storms, droughts, floods etc. Tbh, I'd rather pay up front than risking the lives of my family and friends!
An appeal to benevolent people. Peace, mercy and blessings of God be upon you. I am your sister, Umm Salem, from Palestine, the Gaza Strip. I entered and put this appeal in order to ask for help and extend a helping hand from good people. I have four children, a girl and three sons. We have no breadwinner but God and good people. And there is no work, and I live in a rented house, and here in the Gaza Strip, the conditions are very difficult, and I need to enter to ask good people for help so that I can provide my children with food and drink, and provide the rent for the house, and may God sustain you, but from me all respect and appreciation, and I wish you happiness and sustenance. bumper please those who can help contact whatsapp with a profile picture
We are in no position to be spending even more money. Every budget across the board needs to be cut.
Back in New Zealand I always walked to school because it was only 5 minutes away. Here it would take me at least an hour of walking to get to school…
Also I love how they are, bus drivers say our kids it's quite sweet 💛 🧡
Wdym? Should I call 911?
This is just waste of money.
Old buses can be retrofitted with electric drivetrain. They can run trolley buses. Or just build a city so children can walk to school.
I bet building a whole new city centered around walking would be cheaper than just buying a few electric school busses huh?
I'm pretty sure buying a few busses is a bit cheaper than building a whole new city
The propane's that my district have and the Compressed Natural Gas (CNG) others have are not as bad either, they're quieter and don't emit as bad of fumes, they both also considered "green".. they're just very expensive, the electric ones are insane of how much they cost and districts have to get a lot of help from the states to pay for them, the upkeep is also expensive
CNG stands for compressed natural gas.
@@Adam-Woods I said carbon didn't I, my bad, thanks for catching that. I'll just edit the post and fix it
That’s true but propane buses are kinda lack on horsepower because two things, one school buses are so damn heavy and secondly propane engine can’t burn fast compare regular fuel or Diesel engines to reach higher rpm speeds. That’s why they put it in smaller vehicles than big rig’s
@@Marc_YTC that is very true but even tho they take a moment to move, once they're moving they really move. Our drivers are more into the fact that they ride super hard, even small bumps can slam the driver's seat up and back down, also the kids and us assistants hate being in the back as it's the same, we feel every bit of the road... Other than that they tell me they love driving them because they do have more get up and go than half our fleet only because they're really old buses, other than the ones that are from the 80s and early 90s, because they're Blue Birds they're still some of the better buses we have because it doesn't take much to take care of them, Blue Bird made such great buses, that and also it's ideal for children. There are luggage racks on the inside and also luggage storage like what Greyhound buses have, also, we have 1 so far (I don't imagine we will end up with too many) that is an 85 cap bus with air conditioning, everyone fought over it until it was finally driven enough to figure out it rides like crap, even students have complained about their backs hurting so it's been turned into a strictly local activity bus as it can't go in the mountains and being propane it can't be fueled anywhere else (live in Denver, we're just barely getting a few stations for the CNG ones that all the metro area uses 😀)
@@ashleyklotz3762 well your In luck I heard Toyota are making hydrogen powered semi trucks it saves budget plus fuel economy cost they used to run slow back in the days but over time Toyota says it can reach 600 or more horsepower that’s about similar as Diesel engines can go. It’s better because it’s Toyota engine’s And secondly the gases can produce into water (Also, it does fill up the tank very fast than electric and similar as going to gas station). We may see them after 2023 or 2024 because the government need them right away before 2030 for the public.
Ok, 200 billion is like one third of the military budgeting not less, its doable.
Cool. I'm interested by it, nice. Today school buses are usually that expensive to repair or clean. You might know how to charge it by battery, that's why. But it sounds cool how school buses are done, love it. I think this will work, awesome
What would it cost to convert the diesel bus to an electric vehicle
Probably around the same if not maybe a tad cheaper....because they still have to go through the whole bus and clean it, prep it, modify for electric, and assemble it. So its probably worth buying a brand new one than all the expensive hassle of going electric in an old one
@@wiktorjachyra1869 say it will cost 300,000. So you save 100,000 dollars. Now say you have 100 busses. That's a lot of money you saved and then could go into the education
@@e_street7754 Exactly. And I’m almost every clasroom, i’v heard at least once “make sure to return/be careful with those supplies because I bought this with my own money”. It’s sad that teachers have to buy basic things like arts/craft supplies for engaging learning, or even things like markers and whiteboards! Where are our tax dollars going? Not to important things like this
it's generally not that good an idea: Diesel vehicles are built to be heavy, electric vehicles are built to be light. For a converted vehicle, hauling that extra weight is extra work an electric motor would need to do. That drains the battery faster and suddenly the bus may not even be able to do the full route.
I always loved the smell of burning diesel when I got picked up by the bus in the morning.
😂
After school when all the busses lined up for everyone to get on it was the most intense gas smell I ever breathed. Not to mention my school was huge, 2500 students and about 70 busses
How long was the bus?
@@w-4258 🤣🤣🤣
@@w-4258 At least 2
They just be wasting money PERIODT 👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽!!!! they need to be worried about who’s driving a buses and giving him the proper training
I do like how they look like normal busses and not a giant led box
When I went to school our buses ran on propane
the only problem whit that they will not last 40 years,and after they go to hell we have to paid again and probably if you get 7 years out good luck,
Who uses 40 year old school buses?
“Renewable energy” until your lithium battery goes bad and isn’t even legal to dispove of in the US.
Lithium batteries are known for having a lot of charge and discharge cycles so should be good for a long time, and with the move to electric vehicles increasing rapidly battery technology and longevity will increase and the recycling of the batteries will get better
I've never seen a kid cough over a diesel bus.
192 billion or 20% of the Pentagon's budget for ONE year.
God forbid we spend more money on our children than on fighter jets that will never actually defend mainland USA
That goes for our defense budget too
Wish it was that simple sadly its not
What will electric rates be when everybody is charging their vehicles???
The way politicians want them - astronomical.
Renewable exist guys. Solar is already cheaper than coal. We're building up to full electric, these things take time
@@alien9279 Bullshit. Coal is the cheapest form of electric generation.
dunno, what will they be when everyone has solar panels and/or windmills?
I wonder what the cost was installing the power lines to the Chargers for those electric buses.
if the us stopped spending on military for 1 year they could replace these buses 4 times