I'm not exaggerating when i say this is the comic run that made me stop collecting. I used to read on marvel unlimited and pick up the trades later, and I remember reading the the starbrand and Phoenix tournament arcs and thinking "this is some of the worst stuff I've ever read. It sucks I have to buy this to keep up my Avengers collection" before realizing It's stupid to buy things I hate. Then this thought rippled out to most of my comic collecting so I stopped. Then I sold off most of my collection to help raise money for a house. So i guess what im saying is thanks Jason Aaron for helping me buy a house.
@@JennySparkz That was handled bad. At first I gave Aaron a chance. I was like: Okay, She-Hulk did have a thing for Hercules. I see her trying with Thor. Except it was all lies and BS. And out of character. Aaron was so bad at knowing She-Hulk. He made her a hypocrite. When she was telling off Thor "That you only like me as She-Hulk" 1ST: She exploits her own body that way. Hundreds of times, in the past. And when she was lovey dovey with Hercules. She was not liking him for his brain, or personality. 2ND: Thor above EVERYONE on the team. Would basically have ZERO chance to interact with Jen as her regular self, in the first place. He doesn't need a lawyer in almost any way. A lawyer would have almost no use in Asgard. 3RD: Jen is She-Hulk. She is not BRUCE. But this yahoo wanted to use Hulk so bad. He forgot this. So tell me, Jen. At what point would you have time to chat or do things, as your regular self, with him? So in universe. She's whining that Thor finds Shulkie's side more attractive. That's it. Wouldn't that be a good example of liking more body times. Oh, that's right. You want to spite fans. So that angle is happily ignored. And was abused too. In the beginning. Many guys did still like Shulkie's appearance. I never had a problem with her being buff. If you did. You usually didn't read the character in the first place. So than they screwed with her face. When they found that out. To make her sex appeal go away. That's why they gave her the crappiest artwork through that run. Know that ArtFX statue made of her. She's buff, but the designer knew to not screw with her face. So she properly looks like herself. That's the only place that did her face right. Why, because they want the figure to SELLLL. 4TH: Shulkie herself hated her regular boring body many times. Most of the crap Aaron did, was to spite fans of She-Hulk. And she paid with her comic sales of her relaunch falling below the top 50. The fastest I ever seen. Than the TV show being the worst thing they ever produced. Tanked her even further. They've been sending me her comic issues for FREE. When I had a subscription run out after 6 issues. That was left over from Tamaki's BS run. But they sent me issues 7-10 anyway. That's how desperate they are to get the numbers up. Which didn't help anyway. I still haven't read them. I threw them in a box and that's it. They're dumb stories. From the people who did review them.
Arguably, a better way to do Big Team Tackling Huge End of the World Scenarios one after the other was done by Grant Morrison when he helmed the rebirth of the JLA. His run was, more than anything else, the JLA taking on a series of huge cosmic crises but, if I'm remembering correctly, he also managed to insert some character bits here and there.
I generally agree with your point that "bigger" stories tend to lack significant story moments. Because the difficulty of finding a story moment that can effectively symbolize the stakes of the story is proportional to those stakes. There's a new villain, he has hostages, and he needs to be defeated? Ok, the story moment that symbolizes the hero's triumph is an uppercut to the jaw. But all the villains from all the multiverses are combining forces to defeat all the heroes once and for all, throughout time? Without some _major_ work on the front end to develop an in-story proxy which encapsulates that conflict, you can't even fit an appropriate story moment for all that on a double-page spread. (Edit to add that what often happens in such cases is that the proxy conflict is about turning off some sort of portal device that allows multiversal travel...and then congrats, your climactic moment is flipping a switch. It takes a lot more story work to get something satisfying.)
The story with the craziest stakes on that level that works and is a masterpiece is Crisis on Infinite Earths. But Jason Aaron is NOT Marv Wolfman and George Perez.
So right about this. If you have to solve a cataclysmic crisis every other week, it's getting boring. There needs to be a balance between more grounded stories and the highlights so that the highlights can be identified as highlights and shine. This balance seems to have been lost years ago. And about that Aaron run, I stopped buying it after about three issues. No balance there.
Star Trek fell into this trap when it went over into cinemas. On TV, the producers could do smaller, more personal stories, which are Trek's bread and butter. Put it on a movie screen and the Enterprise crew has to avert gigantic threats to galactic peace.
You and your friend at Marvel are right about feeling the need to go big when doing a title like Avengers or Justice League. I would argue they should be big, but how you unravel these universe ending event is what is important. Revealing the peril and conveying what's at stake is the art of storytelling [ which is lost amongst the majority of writers today]. Personally, I think most would benefit from revisiting the three act structure and the heroes journey as well as just reading other authors that not only do it but do it WELL. If I was handed either big power house titles, I'd first take a moment to see where all those characters are in their fictional lives, that way you can create small moments that may be pivotal, pay offs for the character when facing this new threat. A lot of these writers aren't asking the right questions, questions their editors should be delivering when putting together or looking over a draft of a script.
Aaron is a typical comic writer of today. Everything has to be EPIC. He also kind of pissed on what came before. Today these creators seem to take things like the Celestials and make them weak and irrelevant. You’re right, he not only burned things out he made me no longer care about the Avengers. I’ll take a peek when the new creative team takes over but you can’t make the mess Aaron made disappear
It's called falling action guys. In something like an on going comic series, you need lots of periods of rising action, that should lead to a climax, then be followed by a period of falling action. In this, it should be an on going cycle. This is writing 101. Literally this is stuff you learn in high school. Their problem is, they want all rising action and climaxes. It doesn't work that way. When you did what you did, you get what you got.
To be fair, I didn't actually read it, but based on what you said on the video and the few other comments at the time, that's what I imagine had to have happened in that book. It's a problem in other media too. Constantly rising stakes. "Power creep". So I could be wrong, but I'm thinking mostly likely not.
In one word. Ludicrous. This run is exactly how I feel about Scott Synder Justice league. Too much of everything makes a bad thing overall. But while Scott synder had the company backing his bonker ideas, Jason Arron is creating a mess of continuity in his own weird corner of Marvel Comics that everyone else ignores.
I've read most of the Scott Snyder Justice League over the last year and...yeah. At first I was really impressed with how BIG everything seemed. And then it just kept going...and going...and going...and at the 39 issue mark he just nopes out by having the Quintessence reset everything because (I assume) he'd just written himself into a massive corner that only Death Metal could get him out of. But Death Metal came out months later, and there was no immediate indication that the story would continue. So the universe-shaking stuff with Perpetua in Justice League just suddenly hard-reset into...a story about some Daxamites showing up on earth with the Eradicator by a completely different author. Even reading it after the fact, I was not amused
I agree on Justice League but it wasn't just Snyder. It had been that way since the New 52. I just wanted stories with some Trinity and supporting cast interaction, but everything had to be world or universe destroying in what was really bad storytelling in general.
Aaron is the single most destructive force to comics continuity Marvel has ever seen. Any decent editor would have put the Official Handbook on his desk when he came up with that prehistoric Avengers brainfart
@@benevolentremnant2949 the fact that they introduced Perpetua into the canon really f*cks with the power scaling and it pretty much created a DBZ scenario where everyone had to be the strongest character (or version of them) ever just to make it all seem believable. It’s part of why Superman in The New 52 was so godawful but on a MUCH GRANDER SCALE! It even rendered his N52 Batman comic unreadable thanks to how it was “a stepping stone” into the ridiculousness that DK Metal, No Justice, JL, and Death Metal introduced…and we all should’ve known even back in Court of the Owls it wasn’t going to end well. Aaron singlehandedly created an Avengers too hard to take “seriously” but at the same time too boring to care about. It’s Snyder’s JL/Death Metal but with even less craft…if that were possible…and him basically storyboarding the movie that would kill the MCU forever Based on what Kevin Feige has said though, it’s entirely possible they’re going to use this garbage as an actual movie plot.
0:34 I must say that I am one of the few who READ EVERYTHING Jason Aaron DID in Avengers and I loved it. There are some things more bad than the rest, like the World War She-Hulk arc, but the rest I don't think are things thrown at the wall. It was a set of back-to-back stories that led to an epic finale in a multiversal battle. I don't know what the big problem is that they have
Same here, it’s really not a bad run at all, perfect? No but it’s been really fun especially he heroes reborn stuff. Comic fans are just too jaded nowadays and can’t be pleased. I’m sure they will find something to complain about with Jed McKays run.
@@cicolasnage5684 first few issues of that run was really good up until Tournament of Phoenix after that it became complete 💩 up with each issue being a one shot about each hero which is completely boring until Multiversal story Heroes reborn was fairly good but rest was meh. Jason Aaron ruined Celestials turned them weak, disrespected Thor by making Phoenix his mom and messed up continuity a lot with his Prehistoric Avengers BS.Worst Avengers run.And for Jed he he will write a good Avengers story because he knows how to write grounded stories and he has written Avengers mini series before which was really good
Jason Aaron does the equivalent of swiping art to other writers. For his Thor run it was Jurgens. Now his Avengers is Jim Krueger's Earth X and then for some reason stealing the Source Wall frim DC.
Dropped it during Moon Knight beating up Dr Strange,Thor and Ironfist! Thor’s hammer is made from moon rock? This book showed a hint of promise in the first couple of issues and then took a dump,weak uneven artwork ! Roy Thomas,Steve Englehart, Roger Stern and Kurt Busiek set the gold standard in my opinion! Jason Arron just phoned it in like a Mort Weisinger silver age comic on PCP!🤮🧻🔥🙃😵💫
Jason Aaron's run did have to many world ending events and not all of them will be remembered, but I did have fun an will remember the stories I liked and wish good luck to the new writers run.
Mulling: Avengers #312 is midway through the Acts of Vengeance event. There's a specific page that has Doctor Doom, Magneto, the Mandarin, Kingpin, Red Skull, and the Wizard all united in one room. (Along with Loki, who's disguised as their lackey.) I still marvel at that page, because *nobody* had done a page with those six villains teamed up before. It was 1989 and Marvel was still "new" by today's standards. Still, seven villains teaming up like that was *totally new.* Hell, I wasn't even an Avengers reader then. *That* eleven year old me bought without hesitation. So, my challenge to any Avengers writer out there would be: what the hell are you doing that nobody's done yet? Think hard, because some kid who's seen it all before is depending on a wow.
The last Avengers run I remember genuinely liking was Geoff Johns' run 15 or 20 years ago. Before that, the Busiek/Perez era was really good. I was also into Roger Stern's run in the 80's, even after he brought in the C-listers onto the roster. Shooter also had a great run in the early 80's which included the Korvac Saga. Going back even further, I liked Englehart's Celestial Madonna story in the 70's. Stan Lee's run was good too; watching Cap and Hawkeye always bantering back and forth was fun. But ever since Bendis and Quesada decided that the Avengers was "every high profile Marvel hero" instead of a distinct roster after Disassembeled, I haven't liked it very much. Bendis terrible Hood storyline dragged on forever in New Avengers and Hickman's pretentious babbling and snail's pacing about multiple timelimes and "incursions" (the same idea he always writes about) put me to sleep. BY the time Aaron came along, I was out and not looking back. Not even McGunniess' art could lure me back. If it's anything like the goofy-ass stuff he did in Wolverine and the X-Men, then I'm sure it's silly garbage.
I remember when John Byrne finally, officially, put Spider-Man on the Avengers. He quit within six issues. The whole point of the story was to show why he didn't fit on the team.
Gotta be honest I stopped reading after Hickman left (aka up until Secret Wars) then I read slower and slower than usual, lots of things didn’t interest me than usual…
*It's a perfect movie to watch together with my friends on a Saturday morning 🤩. I couldn't wait for the next video, please share it to us immediately. Thank you so much for such great video, Perch!*
Putting aside what he did to Jen, the main problem was that while the ideas were big there was no foundation and no follow up. This guys idea of making a foundation for a story is two panels or so of exposition. Without the foundation you can't support a story. He was throwing things against the wall and the editors, assuming they were even paying attention, were letting him throw.
I've liked Individual arcs on their own but as a whole? It's something of a confusing mess. It feels like every arc should be building on the previous to create a massive story. Instead, it all feels like "What was the point?" Why the thing with the Phoenix? What was up with Heroes Reborn? It's like he swung for the fences but didn't expect to hit the ball. Maybe his finale will address some of this. After all, War of the Realms was a decent conclusion to his Thor run.
5:57 Thanks for clearing that up Perch, sounds like you want them eating chimichangas instead of fighting significant threats. I'd rather have the Avengers trying to get out of a reality rewritten by the Squadron Supreme or fighting Moon Knight with control of the planet than something like a "conspiracy"
The Aaron run on The Avengers is so odd. A creator with so many iconic runs on so many different properties gets the biggest name book in the Marvel stable…and it’s entirely forgettable. I can’t remember an Avengers arc, let alone entire run having absolutely zero buzz….
Hickman's Avengers was about as epic as I could handle, and I had plenty of problems with it. Aaron's run just sounds exhausting. Too many wacky ideas, without any respect for continuity or character development.
I liked the beginning but I got pretty bored quickly. There was too much going on it just felt too extravagant and i can’t imagine any character really developed during this run. I’d just like a simple comic where the heroes save the world or defeat their archenemy. Don’t need to see the multiverse constantly in danger
I see that run as just plain dumb fun. I could only enjoy reading it when I realized I should not take it seriously and just accept the crazy. To me, it's fantasy Avengers for kids. It doesn't ruin the Avengers for me. it's a just a big arc with a beginning and and an end. It will become unrelevant once it's over and a new writer will start its riff on the Avengers.
Aaron's run was meaningless event after event which I agree with what you said about everything and the kitchen sink thrown in it. I liked the Ghost Rider but he was destroyed. Where is the original Nighthawk? The book fell from must read to "I'll get around it". Give me a Zodiac storyline. Bring back Grim Reaper. Have them move back to the Mansion. The last years have been like a baseball game, swinging for the fences and nothing but pop ups. Storylines with weak ending made me just look forward to Levitz's limited series.
Perch, your assessment is spot-on. Aaron did not ruin the title but he didn't elevate it to any great heights or realise its potential either; I hated World War She-Hulk, found the Phoenix storyline irrelevant and ultimately meaningless, the Khonshu/Moon Knight story an example of squandered potential and am grateful that he didn't stuff up Echo, a character I like too much to see ruined. Compared to Busiek/Perez, many of the 1970s and 1980s Avengers runs and of course the title's first hundred issues, Aaron's run is no more than a radar blip. I often found myself buying the comic only so I could keep my collection complete in anticipation of his eventual replacement.
There are parts that are enjoyable in this run, but for me the Jen stuff really drags it down, especially since it's obvious that Aaron was mad he couldn't use Banner because Ewing was killing it with Immortal Hulk.
This run made me quit buying Avengers after about 30 years, so that should tell you what I think of it. I started back in 1984 with issue 249. Stopped in the early 90s with the leather jacket era, came back with Heroes Reborn/Heroes Return and have been buying ever since. I even went back to fill the gaps in my collection from the leather jacket era. I survived Chuck Austen. I couldn’t survive Jason Aaron.
From the start I viewed his run as an attempt to capture the Morrison era of JLA, "go huge, every time." That said, I really disliked how he handled a lot of the characters involved, like She-Hulk, Odin, and Thor. I also think that the entire "Avengers 1,000,000 BC" arc was nonsensical, because it had a team of mostly humans that took place 800,000 years before HUMANS existed, had Odin the viking running around basically as a viking, 999,000 years before *vikings* existed, it was so stupid. If he'd just set it at 10,000 years ago, and left out Odin, or portrayed him as an unrecognizable prototype, like a "caveman Odin," then maybe that could work out ok, but "1m BC" just left me thinking "this is an idiot book, by idiots, for idiots."
Yeah, but Ghost Rider on a flaming mammoth tho. It doesn't get more metal than that. Well, unless the giant flaming bat in Midnight Suns is more metal, it's debatable.
@@nicodemous52 Well, mammoths went extinct around 10,000 years ago, so a series set in that time could still have them. Or he could be riding a skeletal mammoth. Or just a war elephant. There were also giant sloths around.
I believe so. It was fantastic. The only run that I enjoyed more was Busiek/Perez. Both were the Avengers at their best. Story arcs that built over time to a knock-out climax and finale, with an issue or two after to tie things up and reflect on the events that occurred. Aaron tried to have John Wick Avengers - amped to 11 from start to finish. That can work for a movie, but doesn't work well over a run of a few years. Comics, and novels, need room to breathe and for characters to grow. Without that space, it's just a boring collection of unconnected action sequences.
I don’t understand the argument that “the Avengers movies made it so that everything in the Avengers comic has to be as big (in scope) as possible.” If the movies all feel like one giant world-ending catastrophe after another, it’s because they are, and that’s because they’re movies. They have a very limited run time in terms of what they can accomplish in their 2-2.5 hours versus what you can get done in even just six issues worth of comics. There is lots of stuff that (presumably) happens in between the movies that we never see, the smaller and quieter moments. That being said, comics has plenty of room for those moments, plenty of time to take it down a notch. The comics absolutely DO NOT need to jump from one cataclysm to another with no room to breathe like the movies do.
I'm going to be the sporadic Perch encourager. Best intro as usual. Also I agree, this run burned me out. None of it seemed to matter outside of that book. It was shock value for no reason like Pheonix being thors mother. Also how does making Echo the Phoenix make her a better and more interesting character? This isn't a Shonen comic where power means cooler.
Let's put it this way I quite after issue 50. I don't know how it ends, and I don't care i regret every dollar I spent on that run. To compare I don't like gerry Dugan but I'm more interested in going though another run of him on uncanny avengers then I am reading another main avengers title I can't do multiverse or Saving the universe from larger than life thing again cause you just can't keep raising the stakes
@M Bob I honestly thought it would get better I was wrong. I don't even think I read the last couple issues I was just trying to wait Aron out but it was becoming a chore to justify the money. Feel the same about daredevil and detective comics right now.
@@themaker2149 I did give him a chance. I was thinking he did his research on She-Hulk. And would bring her back to where she should be. But all he did was turn everything into a farce.
@M Bob I thought there were good ideas in the series but everything got dragged out way to long and it ended up making the avengers seem pointless. The avengers appeared in many other books but other then having the same members nothing in the avengers title seemed to connect to the other books or vice versa. Not the solo titles or the other events it just felt like a easy to ignore book and the avengers should never feel that way
The first story arc was fun then I got up to 10 and just stopped cause I realized I didn’t care anymore. So I don’t think Jason Aaron run will be remembered at all. Same with his Punisher series. I’m waiting for marvel to give Frank Castle his logo and guns back and forget that hand stuff ever happened. I don’t know Jason Aaron is a writer I have no feelings about in terms of his newer comics.
I used to read Avengers, even a number of the side books and solo titles. Now I still pull Thor but haven't read it in a while. His Avengers run was kind of a breaking point for me to give up and get away. With X-Men also being a mess and already having scaled back my DC books back to a few Bat titles and nothing else, it's kind of snowballed into a comics are an afterthought to me. Every time I pick up some months old books from my pull I try to cut another book from the list.
2:11 This is my problem with these reviews, that it's not because they are negative, but, if the comic is a lot of talk closer to the slice of Life than a superhero story, it is understandable that it is criticized...but if it's an epic story, in which THINGS HAPPEN, because each arc is distinctive, with repercussions (perhaps more repercussions within the very story Aaron was telling) and in a well-marked direction, what's the problem? That the writer is not the one who is fashionable? What does not influence the continuity so much? Characters like Black Panther, Bobby Reyes, She-Hulk, Moon Knight despite not being on the team, Nighthawk, the new Starbrand, had individual arcs that supported everything superheroic that was happening on a large scale in the book. So, honestly, I don't understand so much criticism
When talking about Bendis‘ Avengers run, and people generally liking it, I feel like that statement needs a little specificity. You can’t just generalize his run, because his run was pretty long. I’m not sure when people started turning on him, but I definitely noticed by New Avengers Vol. 2 in 2010 people were over him. The first three or four years Bendis did New Avengers (and that Secret War comic) people seemed to be in love with him doing Avengers stuff, but somewhere in 2009 or 2010 the audience was over him...and his New Avengers Vol. 2 and Avengers Vol. 4 ran into 2013.
I didn’t read this since I’ve been staying away from Marvel comics and I never followed Avengers even back in the day. Xmen and Spiderman were my bag. (I also followed Cloak and Dagger until they cancelled it.)
The one thing I remember being totally enthralled with was, X-Cutioner's Song. I missed several issues in the original run, but I was trying to get them as a kid. I've since gotten it in a trade, and realize it was crap. I'm starting to wonder if I ever really liked Marvel at all. I mean, I know I did, but did I really? Or was I just to young and dumb to realize no, I actually didn't?
Who was writing Avengers 2005-2011? That’s when I read it. Avengers was one of my favourites, I loved team books, Justice League, Avengers, JSA, Green Lanterns, X-Men were my favourites.
It was a confusing "meh" that reminded me of two kids shouting over one another to write a "bigger, better" story with reckless abandon and without regard to continuity.
The prehistoric Avengers are the single most destructive idea in comics continuity history. If you know anything about the history of Asgardians, Black Panther, Iron Fist, Sorcerer Supreme, the Phoenix or even human history- Jason Aaron managed to turn that all into unconnected gibberish. Marvel desperately need a Mark Grunewald type to keep these clowns right.
The only part of Jason Aaron’s run that I liked what his Phoenix tournament story. The Avengers can be saved, if you give breather stories between the big arcs. Roger Stern, Grant Morrison, and Keith Giffen are examples to learn from. John Byrne’s Avengers runs were hampered by events. Just stop the events, and then give writers breather issues.
I wish this problem were limited to Jason Aaron's comics. Remember that time Batman had to save the entirety of Gotham city? Remember that big huge crisis event? Remember when the justice league had to save the whole universe?
Yea I don’t know why they have to do these multiverse wide conflicts, where all life in the universe is about to be wiped out, a story like that should only happen once every 10-20 years. It’s like Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z, I much preferred Dragon Ball, where DBZ the power scaling just went berserk and it was just just “oh no, a new foe, I’m not strong enough, I must train to become stronger. Haha now I’m stronger than my foe, but oh no! My foe has another transformation and is now stronger, I must train to get stronger. Haha now I’m stronger & I’ve defeated the foe, but oh no!! A new stronger foe, I’m not strong enough, I must train to become stronger…………………. I just preferred it when the stakes were smaller, universe level threats should be used very sparingly.
DB still did that. Tao Pai Pai was strong. Goku almost died. I need to train to get stronger. Tao Pai Pai defeated. Picolo Daimao gets released. Goku loses. I must get stronger. Picolo Daimao dies. Picolo Jr. is born. Goku must train to get stronger. It always happened. It just wasn't as "big". Even though Goku had stopped multiple villians from taking over the planet.
How much of this is Jason Aaron's fault and how much is Marvel's joke of an editorial staff's fault? This comic did so many things that completely turned me off from Marvel in general. One idea after another that felt half-baked and damaging to the characters in it. I will likely never buy another Jason Aaron comic again.
I jumped off after the initial 10 or so issues. The 10,000BC Avengers stuff was incredibly boring imho. I later read the Moon Knight arc which I found dreadful. Truthfully, I find most Aaron stuff to be unlikeable. I am eager to see what McKay brings to the table. I've mostly enjoyed his stuff.
I always called Aaron king of retcons. It seems he never read old comics. He doesn't understand characters and doesn't give a f to continuity. Never liked his comics
I bought Heroes Reborn in trade, not believing Jason Aaron's run on Avengers could be as bad as everyone told me it was. This was a bad idea because after reading it I had no goddamn clue what it was supposed to be. Is it supposed to be lampooning all the event comics by replacing the Avengers with the murderous Squadron heroes? It doesn't really say anything about events and Aaron has no room to talk after War of the Realms. Are the Squadron Supreme supposed to be the Seven from The Boys? If so they're an extremely watered down version and I hate The Boys. Is it an indictment against American exceptionalism in a post-Trump US? If it is then it's kiddy pool deep. It confounds me and now it just sits there on my shelf mocking me for trying to engage with watching Jason Aaron smack modular action figures together and then having someone draw it for him.
Open question for Perch "Dallas" Perchington: what's your hot take on Buddy Saunders? Curious only because 1) you're now in the same city as the guy, and 2) TCJ just ran an interview with him (which promptly set their commenters into a rage). The latter made me wonder what Perch's view is as a former retailer. I lack opinions, but have plenty of curiosity.
Aaron's run was 97% straight garbage. I let the book go during that mess of a moon knight story arc. Not every adventure of avengers had to be epic and world shaking. 🙄 aarons clearly hasn't studied the greats like stern, busiek, Lee, englehart, Johns, Thomas, shooter etc. All avengers villains weren't cosmic powered world killers.....assassin, imus champion, grim reaper, sons of the serpent etc gave the team problems throughout the time. Aarons fell into that "the future is female" trope with danvers and just pretty much all over the place with his writing. I hope jed McKay brings the avengers back down to earth with character development and sensical storyline plots.
I enjoyed Aaron's run, but i can see why others became disillusioned and i have found myself making excuses way too much for him. To my mind, i kept saying "well they are the number one superhero team in the world" when it came to having a base in a dead Celestial, if anyone deserves that, it's them... Aaron did bring it to an EPIC scale but you can't double-down on every hand the way that he seemed to. In doing so, the focus gets away from regular-level humanity... I think that McKay will return The Avengers to a more street-level super team. Even with Kang's help...
If people at Marvel Comics think the movies ruined The Avengers, the people at Marvel Comics are stupid. That’s like the nicest way I think that could probably be said. Also, ruined for who? The comics side of things aren’t exactly publishing Avengers comics with a mass audience general public in mind. I mean, just a look at who have made up the Avengers of Vol. 8 for the past five years makes it pretty clear the MCU has zero bearing on the Avengers comics.
Only good Arc from Jason Aaron's run Is the first one after that everything is a mess. I don't know it will ever hold up but Marvel is gonna make omnibus and saying this best run or something. It shouldn't be. Jed Mckay I have not read a lot of his stuff. I am aware he use the older Thunderstrike and use his son just a cameo which is a wasted. Wes and I think Drew Praised his Mckay's Moon Knight. I do like Mcjkay's Mj and Black Cat one shot but the series itself not really good.
I want to forget this crap. After he screwed up She-Hulk. Didn't respect the character one bit. All because he wanted to use Hulk and couldn't. No one is telling them to keep writing like this. His run is crap. So go back in other directions. What's there to lose.
Why not have the characters only appear in their own comics and cancel Avengers until there comes a ti.e the world need the Earth's Mightiest Heroes. Didn't Tony Stark suggest disbanding eary on in the series back in the 60s?
I hated this run and I’ve lost interest in the title. Same with the X-Men. I just don’t care. I’m thankful for Mark Millar though. He gets comics and how to make them fun.
I thought there were some very good story arcs in there. The Moon Knight, She-Hulk and Vampire Nation stories were very good, but it's out of control at the end with the multiverse shite. I didn't like the way he elevated lesser heroes at the expense of the more established ones. There was some of that belittling the patriarchy jazz that always comes off as ham-fisted. Otherwise enjoyable, I thought.
I guess it’s because it’s my first Avengers run I’ve ever collected (I’ve only started seriously collecting new Marvel books for the past 5 years) but I quite enjoyed the run, and the past 2 years of multiversal shenanigans has been fun. I know a lot of people around these TH-cam parts think it’s the worst thing since 9/11 but I don’t really care about what the general consensus thinks. It’s my dime, I enjoy the book so that’s all that matters.
Jed McKay has no choice but to dial it back. Once you recruit every Avenger ever across all time lines to save the multiverse you can't go any bigger.
agreed
McKay any good???
@@chm9935 he's put together a pretty solid moon knight run so theres reason for optimism
@@jonathansoko1085 I did. All of it. Not my favorite Avengers run, not even top 10 but it had its moments.
@@jonathansoko1085 i bought the whole thing because i am a hopeless completist
I'm not exaggerating when i say this is the comic run that made me stop collecting. I used to read on marvel unlimited and pick up the trades later, and I remember reading the the starbrand and Phoenix tournament arcs and thinking "this is some of the worst stuff I've ever read. It sucks I have to buy this to keep up my Avengers collection" before realizing It's stupid to buy things I hate. Then this thought rippled out to most of my comic collecting so I stopped. Then I sold off most of my collection to help raise money for a house. So i guess what im saying is thanks Jason Aaron for helping me buy a house.
Same boat. Ruining She-Hulk like he did was my F this i'm done.
@@mbob4337 Thor cries in the corner.....
@@JennySparkz That was handled bad. At first I gave Aaron a chance. I was like: Okay, She-Hulk did have a thing for Hercules. I see her trying with Thor. Except it was all lies and BS. And out of character. Aaron was so bad at knowing She-Hulk. He made her a hypocrite. When she was telling off Thor "That you only like me as She-Hulk" 1ST: She exploits her own body that way. Hundreds of times, in the past. And when she was lovey dovey with Hercules. She was not liking him for his brain, or personality. 2ND: Thor above EVERYONE on the team. Would basically have ZERO chance to interact with Jen as her regular self, in the first place. He doesn't need a lawyer in almost any way. A lawyer would have almost no use in Asgard. 3RD: Jen is She-Hulk. She is not BRUCE. But this yahoo wanted to use Hulk so bad. He forgot this.
So tell me, Jen. At what point would you have time to chat or do things, as your regular self, with him? So in universe. She's whining that Thor finds Shulkie's side more attractive. That's it. Wouldn't that be a good example of liking more body times. Oh, that's right. You want to spite fans. So that angle is happily ignored. And was abused too. In the beginning. Many guys did still like Shulkie's appearance. I never had a problem with her being buff. If you did. You usually didn't read the character in the first place. So than they screwed with her face. When they found that out. To make her sex appeal go away. That's why they gave her the crappiest artwork through that run. Know that ArtFX statue made of her. She's buff, but the designer knew to not screw with her face. So she properly looks like herself. That's the only place that did her face right.
Why, because they want the figure to SELLLL. 4TH: Shulkie herself hated her regular boring body many times. Most of the crap Aaron did, was to spite fans of She-Hulk. And she paid with her comic sales of her relaunch falling below the top 50. The fastest I ever seen. Than the TV show being the worst thing they ever produced. Tanked her even further. They've been sending me her comic issues for FREE. When I had a subscription run out after 6 issues. That was left over from Tamaki's BS run. But they sent me issues 7-10 anyway. That's how desperate they are to get the numbers up. Which didn't help anyway. I still haven't read them. I threw them in a box and that's it. They're dumb stories. From the people who did review them.
Arguably, a better way to do Big Team Tackling Huge End of the World Scenarios one after the other was done by Grant Morrison when he helmed the rebirth of the JLA. His run was, more than anything else, the JLA taking on a series of huge cosmic crises but, if I'm remembering correctly, he also managed to insert some character bits here and there.
I generally agree with your point that "bigger" stories tend to lack significant story moments. Because the difficulty of finding a story moment that can effectively symbolize the stakes of the story is proportional to those stakes. There's a new villain, he has hostages, and he needs to be defeated? Ok, the story moment that symbolizes the hero's triumph is an uppercut to the jaw. But all the villains from all the multiverses are combining forces to defeat all the heroes once and for all, throughout time? Without some _major_ work on the front end to develop an in-story proxy which encapsulates that conflict, you can't even fit an appropriate story moment for all that on a double-page spread. (Edit to add that what often happens in such cases is that the proxy conflict is about turning off some sort of portal device that allows multiversal travel...and then congrats, your climactic moment is flipping a switch. It takes a lot more story work to get something satisfying.)
The story with the craziest stakes on that level that works and is a masterpiece is Crisis on Infinite Earths. But Jason Aaron is NOT Marv Wolfman and George Perez.
Busiek and Perez had the best avengers run in my opinion.
I can't argue with that. It was a seminal run; it got everything about the Avengers right.
Yes.
So right about this. If you have to solve a cataclysmic crisis every other week, it's getting boring. There needs to be a balance between more grounded stories and the highlights so that the highlights can be identified as highlights and shine. This balance seems to have been lost years ago. And about that Aaron run, I stopped buying it after about three issues. No balance there.
Star Trek fell into this trap when it went over into cinemas. On TV, the producers could do smaller, more personal stories, which are Trek's bread and butter. Put it on a movie screen and the Enterprise crew has to avert gigantic threats to galactic peace.
Finally, the greatest opening intro returned
You and your friend at Marvel are right about feeling the need to go big when doing a title like Avengers or Justice League. I would argue they should be big, but how you unravel these universe ending event is what is important. Revealing the peril and conveying what's at stake is the art of storytelling [ which is lost amongst the majority of writers today].
Personally, I think most would benefit from revisiting the three act structure and the heroes journey as well as just reading other authors that not only do it but do it WELL.
If I was handed either big power house titles, I'd first take a moment to see where all those characters are in their fictional lives, that way you can create small moments that may be pivotal, pay offs for the character when facing this new threat. A lot of these writers aren't asking the right questions, questions their editors should be delivering when putting together or looking over a draft of a script.
Aaron is a typical comic writer of today. Everything has to be EPIC. He also kind of pissed on what came before. Today these creators seem to take things like the Celestials and make them weak and irrelevant. You’re right, he not only burned things out he made me no longer care about the Avengers. I’ll take a peek when the new creative team takes over but you can’t make the mess Aaron made disappear
Jason Aaron's avengers run is my favourite, I love it. Maybe I am the only person who can say that but it's true. It holds a special place in my heart
It's called falling action guys. In something like an on going comic series, you need lots of periods of rising action, that should lead to a climax, then be followed by a period of falling action. In this, it should be an on going cycle. This is writing 101. Literally this is stuff you learn in high school. Their problem is, they want all rising action and climaxes. It doesn't work that way.
When you did what you did, you get what you got.
To be fair, I didn't actually read it, but based on what you said on the video and the few other comments at the time, that's what I imagine had to have happened in that book. It's a problem in other media too. Constantly rising stakes. "Power creep". So I could be wrong, but I'm thinking mostly likely not.
In one word. Ludicrous.
This run is exactly how I feel about Scott Synder Justice league. Too much of everything makes a bad thing overall. But while Scott synder had the company backing his bonker ideas, Jason Arron is creating a mess of continuity in his own weird corner of Marvel Comics that everyone else ignores.
I've read most of the Scott Snyder Justice League over the last year and...yeah. At first I was really impressed with how BIG everything seemed. And then it just kept going...and going...and going...and at the 39 issue mark he just nopes out by having the Quintessence reset everything because (I assume) he'd just written himself into a massive corner that only Death Metal could get him out of. But Death Metal came out months later, and there was no immediate indication that the story would continue. So the universe-shaking stuff with Perpetua in Justice League just suddenly hard-reset into...a story about some Daxamites showing up on earth with the Eradicator by a completely different author. Even reading it after the fact, I was not amused
I agree on Justice League but it wasn't just Snyder. It had been that way since the New 52. I just wanted stories with some Trinity and supporting cast interaction, but everything had to be world or universe destroying in what was really bad storytelling in general.
Aaron is the single most destructive force to comics continuity Marvel has ever seen. Any decent editor would have put the Official Handbook on his desk when he came up with that prehistoric Avengers brainfart
@@benevolentremnant2949 the fact that they introduced Perpetua into the canon really f*cks with the power scaling and it pretty much created a DBZ scenario where everyone had to be the strongest character (or version of them) ever just to make it all seem believable. It’s part of why Superman in The New 52 was so godawful but on a MUCH GRANDER SCALE!
It even rendered his N52 Batman comic unreadable thanks to how it was “a stepping stone” into the ridiculousness that DK Metal, No Justice, JL, and Death Metal introduced…and we all should’ve known even back in Court of the Owls it wasn’t going to end well.
Aaron singlehandedly created an Avengers too hard to take “seriously” but at the same time too boring to care about. It’s Snyder’s JL/Death Metal but with even less craft…if that were possible…and him basically storyboarding the movie that would kill the MCU forever
Based on what Kevin Feige has said though, it’s entirely possible they’re going to use this garbage as an actual movie plot.
0:34 I must say that I am one of the few who READ EVERYTHING Jason Aaron DID in Avengers and I loved it. There are some things more bad than the rest, like the World War She-Hulk arc, but the rest I don't think are things thrown at the wall. It was a set of back-to-back stories that led to an epic finale in a multiversal battle. I don't know what the big problem is that they have
Same here, it’s really not a bad run at all, perfect? No but it’s been really fun especially he heroes reborn stuff.
Comic fans are just too jaded nowadays and can’t be pleased. I’m sure they will find something to complain about with Jed McKays run.
@@cicolasnage5684 first few issues of that run was really good up until Tournament of Phoenix after that it became complete 💩 up with each issue being a one shot about each hero which is completely boring until Multiversal story Heroes reborn was fairly good but rest was meh. Jason Aaron ruined Celestials turned them weak, disrespected Thor by making Phoenix his mom and messed up continuity a lot with his Prehistoric Avengers BS.Worst Avengers run.And for Jed he he will write a good Avengers story because he knows how to write grounded stories and he has written Avengers mini series before which was really good
Back to Back stories lol more like a one shots it didn't felt like Avengers run at all and Continuitu was messed up but Jason
Jason Aaron does the equivalent of swiping art to other writers.
For his Thor run it was Jurgens.
Now his Avengers is Jim Krueger's Earth X and then for some reason stealing the Source Wall frim DC.
Dropped it during Moon Knight beating up Dr Strange,Thor and Ironfist! Thor’s hammer is made from moon rock? This book showed a hint of promise in the first couple of issues and then took a dump,weak uneven artwork ! Roy Thomas,Steve Englehart, Roger Stern and Kurt Busiek set the gold standard in my opinion! Jason Arron just phoned it in like a Mort Weisinger silver age comic on PCP!🤮🧻🔥🙃😵💫
Jason Aaron's run did have to many world ending events and not all of them will be remembered, but I did have fun an will remember the stories I liked and wish good luck to the new writers run.
They seem like the kinds of stories that's be perfect for a Saturday morning cartoon.
Mulling: Avengers #312 is midway through the Acts of Vengeance event. There's a specific page that has Doctor Doom, Magneto, the Mandarin, Kingpin, Red Skull, and the Wizard all united in one room. (Along with Loki, who's disguised as their lackey.) I still marvel at that page, because *nobody* had done a page with those six villains teamed up before. It was 1989 and Marvel was still "new" by today's standards. Still, seven villains teaming up like that was *totally new.* Hell, I wasn't even an Avengers reader then. *That* eleven year old me bought without hesitation.
So, my challenge to any Avengers writer out there would be: what the hell are you doing that nobody's done yet? Think hard, because some kid who's seen it all before is depending on a wow.
Yes!! I'm re-reading this now, as an 9 year old kid up to today, the Acts of Vengeance storyline was epic
The last Avengers run I remember genuinely liking was Geoff Johns' run 15 or 20 years ago. Before that, the Busiek/Perez era was really good. I was also into Roger Stern's run in the 80's, even after he brought in the C-listers onto the roster. Shooter also had a great run in the early 80's which included the Korvac Saga. Going back even further, I liked Englehart's Celestial Madonna story in the 70's. Stan Lee's run was good too; watching Cap and Hawkeye always bantering back and forth was fun.
But ever since Bendis and Quesada decided that the Avengers was "every high profile Marvel hero" instead of a distinct roster after Disassembeled, I haven't liked it very much. Bendis terrible Hood storyline dragged on forever in New Avengers and Hickman's pretentious babbling and snail's pacing about multiple timelimes and "incursions" (the same idea he always writes about) put me to sleep. BY the time Aaron came along, I was out and not looking back. Not even McGunniess' art could lure me back. If it's anything like the goofy-ass stuff he did in Wolverine and the X-Men, then I'm sure it's silly garbage.
I remember when John Byrne finally, officially, put Spider-Man on the Avengers. He quit within six issues. The whole point of the story was to show why he didn't fit on the team.
Gotta be honest I stopped reading after Hickman left (aka up until Secret Wars) then I read slower and slower than usual, lots of things didn’t interest me than usual…
Bendis ruined the team forever to me.
Agree wholeheartedly!
@@EvandroACruz you aren't alone , I stopped collecting Avengers immediately after the Avengers Disassembled storyline.
*It's a perfect movie to watch together with my friends on a Saturday morning 🤩. I couldn't wait for the next video, please share it to us immediately. Thank you so much for such great video, Perch!*
The Avengers went too big, and the audience simply went home.
Good news, the people who see the movies don't read the comics so you don't have to worry about any kind of impact from it.
We need avengers go to Arby’s
“Death of the Avengers”
Putting aside what he did to Jen, the main problem was that while the ideas were big there was no foundation and no follow up. This guys idea of making a foundation for a story is two panels or so of exposition. Without the foundation you can't support a story. He was throwing things against the wall and the editors, assuming they were even paying attention, were letting him throw.
I've liked Individual arcs on their own but as a whole? It's something of a confusing mess. It feels like every arc should be building on the previous to create a massive story. Instead, it all feels like "What was the point?" Why the thing with the Phoenix? What was up with Heroes Reborn? It's like he swung for the fences but didn't expect to hit the ball. Maybe his finale will address some of this. After all, War of the Realms was a decent conclusion to his Thor run.
I dislike Jason Aaron’s Thor run and it feels like a continuation of this with the Avengers run.
He made the She-Hulk a swollen frog. A heretic should burn
McKay can write grounded, given how Moon Knight feels. I have faith in that.
5:57 Thanks for clearing that up Perch, sounds like you want them eating chimichangas instead of fighting significant threats.
I'd rather have the Avengers trying to get out of a reality rewritten by the Squadron Supreme or fighting Moon Knight with control of the planet than something like a "conspiracy"
The Aaron run on The Avengers is so odd. A creator with so many iconic runs on so many different properties gets the biggest name book in the Marvel stable…and it’s entirely forgettable. I can’t remember an Avengers arc, let alone entire run having absolutely zero buzz….
Hickman's Avengers was about as epic as I could handle, and I had plenty of problems with it. Aaron's run just sounds exhausting. Too many wacky ideas, without any respect for continuity or character development.
Aaron is great at ruining continuity. He should really write for the Ultimate line. Continuity doesn't matter there.
@@mbob4337 Yeah, the Ultimate line was weird. It allowed writers to get away with some shenanigans than wouldn't work in the 616.
@@pnorbert2222 Yeah, I get where you're coming from. The resolution to the entire affair felt very anti-climatic.
I liked the beginning but I got pretty bored quickly. There was too much going on it just felt too extravagant and i can’t imagine any character really developed during this run. I’d just like a simple comic where the heroes save the world or defeat their archenemy. Don’t need to see the multiverse constantly in danger
I see that run as just plain dumb fun.
I could only enjoy reading it when I realized I should not take it seriously and just accept the crazy.
To me, it's fantasy Avengers for kids.
It doesn't ruin the Avengers for me. it's a just a big arc with a beginning and and an end. It will become unrelevant once it's over and a new writer will start its riff on the Avengers.
Aaron's run was meaningless event after event which I agree with what you said about everything and the kitchen sink thrown in it. I liked the Ghost Rider but he was destroyed. Where is the original Nighthawk? The book fell from must read to "I'll get around it". Give me a Zodiac storyline. Bring back Grim Reaper. Have them move back to the Mansion. The last years have been like a baseball game, swinging for the fences and nothing but pop ups. Storylines with weak ending made me just look forward to Levitz's limited series.
Perch, your assessment is spot-on. Aaron did not ruin the title but he didn't elevate it to any great heights or realise its potential either; I hated World War She-Hulk, found the Phoenix storyline irrelevant and ultimately meaningless, the Khonshu/Moon Knight story an example of squandered potential and am grateful that he didn't stuff up Echo, a character I like too much to see ruined. Compared to Busiek/Perez, many of the 1970s and 1980s Avengers runs and of course the title's first hundred issues, Aaron's run is no more than a radar blip. I often found myself buying the comic only so I could keep my collection complete in anticipation of his eventual replacement.
There are parts that are enjoyable in this run, but for me the Jen stuff really drags it down, especially since it's obvious that Aaron was mad he couldn't use Banner because Ewing was killing it with Immortal Hulk.
This run made me quit buying Avengers after about 30 years, so that should tell you what I think of it.
I started back in 1984 with issue 249. Stopped in the early 90s with the leather jacket era, came back with Heroes Reborn/Heroes Return and have been buying ever since. I even went back to fill the gaps in my collection from the leather jacket era.
I survived Chuck Austen. I couldn’t survive Jason Aaron.
From the start I viewed his run as an attempt to capture the Morrison era of JLA, "go huge, every time." That said, I really disliked how he handled a lot of the characters involved, like She-Hulk, Odin, and Thor. I also think that the entire "Avengers 1,000,000 BC" arc was nonsensical, because it had a team of mostly humans that took place 800,000 years before HUMANS existed, had Odin the viking running around basically as a viking, 999,000 years before *vikings* existed, it was so stupid. If he'd just set it at 10,000 years ago, and left out Odin, or portrayed him as an unrecognizable prototype, like a "caveman Odin," then maybe that could work out ok, but "1m BC" just left me thinking "this is an idiot book, by idiots, for idiots."
Yeah, but Ghost Rider on a flaming mammoth tho. It doesn't get more metal than that. Well, unless the giant flaming bat in Midnight Suns is more metal, it's debatable.
@@nicodemous52 Well, mammoths went extinct around 10,000 years ago, so a series set in that time could still have them. Or he could be riding a skeletal mammoth. Or just a war elephant. There were also giant sloths around.
@@nicodemous52 That's what Marvel wants. They want you to go OOHHH at one thing. And ignore the million of things they get wrong.
Perch, are you talking about the Stern/Buscema run?
I believe so. It was fantastic. The only run that I enjoyed more was Busiek/Perez. Both were the Avengers at their best. Story arcs that built over time to a knock-out climax and finale, with an issue or two after to tie things up and reflect on the events that occurred. Aaron tried to have John Wick Avengers - amped to 11 from start to finish. That can work for a movie, but doesn't work well over a run of a few years. Comics, and novels, need room to breathe and for characters to grow. Without that space, it's just a boring collection of unconnected action sequences.
@@originalkmiller those are my two favorite Avengers’ runs as well.
I don’t understand the argument that “the Avengers movies made it so that everything in the Avengers comic has to be as big (in scope) as possible.” If the movies all feel like one giant world-ending catastrophe after another, it’s because they are, and that’s because they’re movies. They have a very limited run time in terms of what they can accomplish in their 2-2.5 hours versus what you can get done in even just six issues worth of comics. There is lots of stuff that (presumably) happens in between the movies that we never see, the smaller and quieter moments. That being said, comics has plenty of room for those moments, plenty of time to take it down a notch. The comics absolutely DO NOT need to jump from one cataclysm to another with no room to breathe like the movies do.
I'm going to be the sporadic Perch encourager. Best intro as usual. Also I agree, this run burned me out. None of it seemed to matter outside of that book. It was shock value for no reason like Pheonix being thors mother. Also how does making Echo the Phoenix make her a better and more interesting character? This isn't a Shonen comic where power means cooler.
Jason Aaron has really started to write like a dumber Scott Snyder.
Let's put it this way I quite after issue 50. I don't know how it ends, and I don't care i regret every dollar I spent on that run. To compare I don't like gerry Dugan but I'm more interested in going though another run of him on uncanny avengers then I am reading another main avengers title I can't do multiverse or Saving the universe from larger than life thing again cause you just can't keep raising the stakes
I'm surprised you lasted that long. I quit I think on issue 14.
@M Bob I honestly thought it would get better I was wrong. I don't even think I read the last couple issues I was just trying to wait Aron out but it was becoming a chore to justify the money. Feel the same about daredevil and detective comics right now.
@@themaker2149 I did give him a chance. I was thinking he did his research on She-Hulk. And would bring her back to where she should be. But all he did was turn everything into a farce.
@M Bob I thought there were good ideas in the series but everything got dragged out way to long and it ended up making the avengers seem pointless. The avengers appeared in many other books but other then having the same members nothing in the avengers title seemed to connect to the other books or vice versa. Not the solo titles or the other events it just felt like a easy to ignore book and the avengers should never feel that way
The first story arc was fun then I got up to 10 and just stopped cause I realized I didn’t care anymore. So I don’t think Jason Aaron run will be remembered at all. Same with his Punisher series. I’m waiting for marvel to give Frank Castle his logo and guns back and forget that hand stuff ever happened. I don’t know Jason Aaron is a writer I have no feelings about in terms of his newer comics.
I used to read Avengers, even a number of the side books and solo titles. Now I still pull Thor but haven't read it in a while. His Avengers run was kind of a breaking point for me to give up and get away. With X-Men also being a mess and already having scaled back my DC books back to a few Bat titles and nothing else, it's kind of snowballed into a comics are an afterthought to me. Every time I pick up some months old books from my pull I try to cut another book from the list.
2:11 This is my problem with these reviews, that it's not because they are negative, but, if the comic is a lot of talk closer to the slice of Life than a superhero story, it is understandable that it is criticized...but if it's an epic story, in which THINGS HAPPEN, because each arc is distinctive, with repercussions (perhaps more repercussions within the very story Aaron was telling) and in a well-marked direction, what's the problem? That the writer is not the one who is fashionable? What does not influence the continuity so much?
Characters like Black Panther, Bobby Reyes, She-Hulk, Moon Knight despite not being on the team, Nighthawk, the new Starbrand, had individual arcs that supported everything superheroic that was happening on a large scale in the book. So, honestly, I don't understand so much criticism
I never started collecting this run.😂😂😂
When talking about Bendis‘ Avengers run, and people generally liking it, I feel like that statement needs a little specificity. You can’t just generalize his run, because his run was pretty long. I’m not sure when people started turning on him, but I definitely noticed by New Avengers Vol. 2 in 2010 people were over him. The first three or four years Bendis did New Avengers (and that Secret War comic) people seemed to be in love with him doing Avengers stuff, but somewhere in 2009 or 2010 the audience was over him...and his New Avengers Vol. 2 and Avengers Vol. 4 ran into 2013.
1:08 Um...... maybe when it started. NOT when it finished.
It doesn’t lol. Jason Aaron took every action figure out of the toy box and just smashed them together. Disappointing.
He said thrust lol
I didn’t read this since I’ve been staying away from Marvel comics and I never followed Avengers even back in the day. Xmen and Spiderman were my bag. (I also followed Cloak and Dagger until they cancelled it.)
The one thing I remember being totally enthralled with was, X-Cutioner's Song. I missed several issues in the original run, but I was trying to get them as a kid. I've since gotten it in a trade, and realize it was crap. I'm starting to wonder if I ever really liked Marvel at all. I mean, I know I did, but did I really? Or was I just to young and dumb to realize no, I actually didn't?
Who was writing Avengers 2005-2011? That’s when I read it. Avengers was one of my favourites, I loved team books, Justice League, Avengers, JSA, Green Lanterns, X-Men were my favourites.
It was a confusing "meh" that reminded me of two kids shouting over one another to write a "bigger, better" story with reckless abandon and without regard to continuity.
The prehistoric Avengers are the single most destructive idea in comics continuity history. If you know anything about the history of Asgardians, Black Panther, Iron Fist, Sorcerer Supreme, the Phoenix or even human history- Jason Aaron managed to turn that all into unconnected gibberish. Marvel desperately need a Mark Grunewald type to keep these clowns right.
Yes, Marvel needs the new Mark Grunewald...the man is sorely missed!
I enjoyed it. This run felt more like something that would have been more appropriate for the Justice League though.
The only part of Jason Aaron’s run that I liked what his Phoenix tournament story. The Avengers can be saved, if you give breather stories between the big arcs. Roger Stern, Grant Morrison, and Keith Giffen are examples to learn from. John Byrne’s Avengers runs were hampered by events. Just stop the events, and then give writers breather issues.
I wish this problem were limited to Jason Aaron's comics. Remember that time Batman had to save the entirety of Gotham city? Remember that big huge crisis event? Remember when the justice league had to save the whole universe?
Yea I don’t know why they have to do these multiverse wide conflicts, where all life in the universe is about to be wiped out, a story like that should only happen once every 10-20 years.
It’s like Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z, I much preferred Dragon Ball, where DBZ the power scaling just went berserk and it was just just “oh no, a new foe, I’m not strong enough, I must train to become stronger. Haha now I’m stronger than my foe, but oh no! My foe has another transformation and is now stronger, I must train to get stronger. Haha now I’m stronger & I’ve defeated the foe, but oh no!! A new stronger foe, I’m not strong enough, I must train to become stronger………………….
I just preferred it when the stakes were smaller, universe level threats should be used very sparingly.
DB still did that. Tao Pai Pai was strong. Goku almost died. I need to train to get stronger. Tao Pai Pai defeated. Picolo Daimao gets released. Goku loses. I must get stronger. Picolo Daimao dies. Picolo Jr. is born. Goku must train to get stronger. It always happened. It just wasn't as "big". Even though Goku had stopped multiple villians from taking over the planet.
My first Avengers issue was 259. I tired Aarons run. I read the 1st 6 issues, the Moon Knight story, and the Phoenix tournament. It's was ok.
Avengers run is ending. Maybe Perch could learn something from that?
Doesn't it ended like in 2005 in Avengers: Finale?
How much of this is Jason Aaron's fault and how much is Marvel's joke of an editorial staff's fault? This comic did so many things that completely turned me off from Marvel in general. One idea after another that felt half-baked and damaging to the characters in it. I will likely never buy another Jason Aaron comic again.
I jumped off after the initial 10 or so issues. The 10,000BC Avengers stuff was incredibly boring imho. I later read the Moon Knight arc which I found dreadful. Truthfully, I find most Aaron stuff to be unlikeable. I am eager to see what McKay brings to the table. I've mostly enjoyed his stuff.
I also think some of these writers purposely wreck things.
He did with She-Hulk. That was clear as day, on issue 14.
I always called Aaron king of retcons. It seems he never read old comics. He doesn't understand characters and doesn't give a f to continuity. Never liked his comics
Just like Bendis.
I bought Heroes Reborn in trade, not believing Jason Aaron's run on Avengers could be as bad as everyone told me it was. This was a bad idea because after reading it I had no goddamn clue what it was supposed to be. Is it supposed to be lampooning all the event comics by replacing the Avengers with the murderous Squadron heroes? It doesn't really say anything about events and Aaron has no room to talk after War of the Realms. Are the Squadron Supreme supposed to be the Seven from The Boys? If so they're an extremely watered down version and I hate The Boys. Is it an indictment against American exceptionalism in a post-Trump US? If it is then it's kiddy pool deep. It confounds me and now it just sits there on my shelf mocking me for trying to engage with watching Jason Aaron smack modular action figures together and then having someone draw it for him.
Open question for Perch "Dallas" Perchington: what's your hot take on Buddy Saunders? Curious only because 1) you're now in the same city as the guy, and 2) TCJ just ran an interview with him (which promptly set their commenters into a rage). The latter made me wonder what Perch's view is as a former retailer.
I lack opinions, but have plenty of curiosity.
Aaron's run was 97% straight garbage. I let the book go during that mess of a moon knight story arc. Not every adventure of avengers had to be epic and world shaking. 🙄 aarons clearly hasn't studied the greats like stern, busiek, Lee, englehart, Johns, Thomas, shooter etc. All avengers villains weren't cosmic powered world killers.....assassin, imus champion, grim reaper, sons of the serpent etc gave the team problems throughout the time. Aarons fell into that "the future is female" trope with danvers and just pretty much all over the place with his writing. I hope jed McKay brings the avengers back down to earth with character development and sensical storyline plots.
I enjoyed Aaron's run, but i can see why others became disillusioned and i have found myself making excuses way too much for him.
To my mind, i kept saying "well they are the number one superhero team in the world" when it came to having a base in a dead Celestial, if anyone deserves that, it's them...
Aaron did bring it to an EPIC scale but you can't double-down on every hand the way that he seemed to. In doing so, the focus gets away from regular-level humanity...
I think that McKay will return The Avengers to a more street-level super team. Even with Kang's help...
I'd like Steve Rogers to be on the team
If people at Marvel Comics think the movies ruined The Avengers, the people at Marvel Comics are stupid. That’s like the nicest way I think that could probably be said. Also, ruined for who? The comics side of things aren’t exactly publishing Avengers comics with a mass audience general public in mind. I mean, just a look at who have made up the Avengers of Vol. 8 for the past five years makes it pretty clear the MCU has zero bearing on the Avengers comics.
This is exactly the trap
Only good Arc from Jason Aaron's run Is the first one after that everything is a mess. I don't know it will ever hold up but Marvel is gonna make omnibus and saying this best run or something. It shouldn't be.
Jed Mckay I have not read a lot of his stuff. I am aware he use the older Thunderstrike and use his son just a cameo which is a wasted. Wes and I think Drew Praised his Mckay's Moon Knight.
I do like Mcjkay's Mj and Black Cat one shot but the series itself not really good.
Never read it.
I want to forget this crap. After he screwed up She-Hulk. Didn't respect the character one bit. All because he wanted to use Hulk and couldn't. No one is telling them to keep writing like this. His run is crap. So go back in other directions. What's there to lose.
Why not have the characters only appear in their own comics and cancel Avengers until there comes a ti.e the world need the Earth's Mightiest Heroes.
Didn't Tony Stark suggest disbanding eary on in the series back in the 60s?
I liked Jason Aaron’s run.
I hated this run and I’ve lost interest in the title. Same with the X-Men. I just don’t care. I’m thankful for Mark Millar though. He gets comics and how to make them fun.
I quit after the 6th issue.
JA boring
Telling an entertaining non cosmic story seems too out of reach for today's writers.
I thought there were some very good story arcs in there. The Moon Knight, She-Hulk and Vampire Nation stories were very good, but it's out of control at the end with the multiverse shite. I didn't like the way he elevated lesser heroes at the expense of the more established ones. There was some of that belittling the patriarchy jazz that always comes off as ham-fisted. Otherwise enjoyable, I thought.
I guess it’s because it’s my first Avengers run I’ve ever collected (I’ve only started seriously collecting new Marvel books for the past 5 years) but I quite enjoyed the run, and the past 2 years of multiversal shenanigans has been fun.
I know a lot of people around these TH-cam parts think it’s the worst thing since 9/11 but I don’t really care about what the general consensus thinks. It’s my dime, I enjoy the book so that’s all that matters.
Respect. If you like it, that's all that matters insofar as your enjoyment of it.
Every comic is somebody's first.
Maybe I'll get Avengers Forever if they collect the whole series in one HC.