I remember the first time I played a vintage Gibson with an old school vibrato system... I became a believer in vintage! I was able to beat the snot out of the vibrato bar and it would NOT go out of tune. Crazy.
It is just transistors overdriving, there are many plugins to emulate transistor, preamp, power tube, transformer, speaker distortion or any type of mojo you could want. Just dial it up, put it before your verb, or after, maybe on the wet and the dry...there is so much flexibility now. Never has it been more true to say there is more than one ways than one to skin a cat.
@@bradmodd7856 I've been recently into Kush plugins, many of them are really about what you are describing. But I also like what he said about "happy accident" that become desirable sounds. And now, here we are stacking different plugins to replicate those sounds.
That is what we miss from the best analog consoles. A whole range of tone comes from just the head amp gain. Both SSL and Neve, though different to each other, exhibit this same behavior and many struggled to find their snare sounds, in particular, when transitioning to digital desks.
I had an opportunity to purchase a PCM 60 for $60 at a music store in Columbus, OH in the mid 90's. Should have bought it because I saw the selling on Ebay for $600 in 2010 ish. I still remember when the PCM 60 came out and revolutionized the digital reverb industry. Thanks for sharing...
Lol I understand! I'm having the same issue replacing a 91 with the Plug-ins. I need the knobs on the PCM91 to get my sounds the wrong way. Have a great day!
Wow, it makes so much sense - what you have said about emulation. They emulate the (intended) output, but not the actual inner workings of the device. And by emulating - they make the output discrete and limited, since it's very hard or impossible to emulate all the ranges of the analog transformations.
One day in th 80's, my 909 just sounded a lot more Rock'n'Roll than usual. Took me 10 minutes to find out why: I severly overloaded the input of my cheap Microverb gated reverb. I got a decent rock sound out of that 909, which is certainly not what I had thought. :-)
Very cool, never tried a PCM-60, want to after seeing this. Can’t wait for the DBX-120 vid, I’ve had one in the rack for so long I can’t even remember when I bought it, one of my faves. Great as always Dave.
Proof that everyone loves their first real reverb unit. Mine was the lxp-15. I opened it once and it was wall to wall chips on the inside. I paid $850 for it and had to drive to Santa Monica to pick it up.
I had one of those, other than the input noise it worked well. My first reverb was a Yamaha that had 4 buttons and sounded like crap. 4 levels of useless! Ahh, good times
there are so many distortion plugins now it has become standard to put distortion plugins on so many things we never even thought of before, load a distortion plugin up on your verb...put it before, put it after, do both...put it on the source too!
Dave! You are doing important work here by sharing what I call Jurassic Audio Technology and practical empirically proven hacks. In 1984 I bought one of the first available Lexicon 200s just before a tour, the first night I used it I noticed the input pegging on the snare and loved it. I questioned a rep at Lexicon and they told me that there was a limiter built in to the D to A, sounds like the PCM 60 also has that same front end. Oh and the Lex 200 is still in use here at my studio, just did a complete rebuild, still haven't found anything that sits in the mix the same way.
Just brought back a lot of memories!! My favorite 80s era snare verb was the pcm 60 set to large room with the shortest time (two reds and green) mixed with the “Alive” setting of a Klark Teknik DN 780. Ahh hardware!!
I had a PCM60 I got in perfect condition for $30. I sold it because my other Lexi had the same algorithms plus more. I miss that thing though. I'm glad I still have the ole' 8-bit Ibanez delay though!
Kinda cool. In the modern, digital world you'd do a sound like that by clipping/limiting the high end, then running into reverb. Certainly a very cool effect to give the snare a ton of punch.
I bought the Lexicon MPX-1 when it first hit the market. I later bought a second one. But it didn't sound like the 1st. That distorts sound in some way. I sent them back and they replaced another EPROM, and then worked just as well as the first one. The sound is really great.
@@DaveRat Well I just restored a Deltalab Effectron that was broken and missing the buttons and knobs. After fixing it I 3D printed the buttons but the knobs are difficult....Then I was messing around with my Lexicon PCM 60 and realized that it has exactly the same knobs as the Deltalab ! Thanks again.
Bots: "Bu' I put 'hem both through analysers and they do "revers phase cancel each other out", you're not using plugins correctly sir and offending math and science". Mean while Analog still sounding as warm as ever! Thanks for this walkthrough, Had to subscribe to come back for more, Cheers!
Cool! Thanks a lot! One of my favorites of all time is the Roland SDE-2000 (And SDE-1000 or 3000 for what few differences there are) And because I always found that footswitch to be "Awkward", I loved the trick of just plugging a 1/4 line into that foot switch tap-temp and using the other end to just slap in my hand to the speed/rhythm I wanted. (Because the band NEVER played at the same tempo every night! lol) And that band did a few reggae songs where they would let me go nuts on the delays to do kind of a live Lee Scratch Perry dub-mix. I have never found another digital unit that was as easy and could do what that unit did, and certainly none of the effects engines on any of the digital boards (That Im aware of) could do that....even with a "Tap" button.
" ... not doing things as the manufacturer intended ..." 🤣🤣🤣🤣 Isnt that the whole point of experimenting with 'new' toys? I remember the first time I used one of these and, Dave, you are right. They were a game changer (especially when used with a delay and cascading gates on the return).
I listened on AirPods so don’t trust me, but it seems like the compression from the overloading is leveling out the signal and making the high end appear to be more present in a very nice way. Thanks for the vid!
you have awesome timing with posts, man. always dropping nuggets of creativity and practicality right when my workflow needs a jolt. stoked to see the dbx 120 video... i got one of the old ones with two horizontal sliders and love it (until the bypass switch shit the bed) B-)
@@DaveRat gnarly! we actually got into the subharmonic synth world after seeing a video where juan alderete discussed using a dod meatbox pedal live with the mars volta to keep low end booming after following acts who use 808s n whatnot. I'm curious if you mixed the mars volta's sound when they toured with the peppers, because the meatbox and dbx120 are both sub-dumpers but in different ways. cheers!
had the exact same experience using another oldie but goodie back in the day, the Deltalab 1024 for slap back echo for a rockabilly vocal. Overloading the input was the secret. Never could get the same sound just entering the identical parameters into modern effects units. And for sure, the red LEDs flashed well before approaching any audible distortion. For that application it wasn’t “the crunch” I was looking for, but just an authentic rockabilly sound.
I really regret selling my PCM 60 a few years ago, it was near mint too. But end the end I decided to keep my Model 200, Model 300, PCM80 and PCM 70. The Model 200 had that thick 80's reverb sound for me.
Reminds me of the DOD 680 that I used because I couldn't afford to get a digital delay back then. And when I could get digital, I gave it away, only to find out that I could have made my money back. Live and learn.
sounds like a HP filter being added to the input... but i guess the crunch and non-linearity of the overloaded input creates high frequency and harmonic distortion as it exceeds the input. it'd be interesting to hear a direct out from the unit after the input (or with the processor disabled).
So in the PCM 60 models they didn't include the input driving circuit. It would be interesting to test a plug-in they might include that these days as they are getting better at knowing what people want and are getting more accurate with the models.
Yes, would be good. I have also another vid coming that shows how to use a PCM60 as an overdrive distortion unit. Wonder if the emulators will grab that function as well. Ha!
Similar perhaps to Leo Fender never intending his tube amps to overdrive - every iteration / revision over the years increased headroom. But in the field, players had discovered otherwise. Imma dig around some analog gear I have... see what happens when I use it outside of design spec. Also... Denon D5000s?
I'd put my money on the difference experienced between the two models, in application, was the insertion of the ADC/DAC on the 91. If you weren't running a full AES/EBU signal end-to-end, the ADC/DAC will be audible to the discerning operator. Also, any digital clipping experienced along the way would not be a welcome guest, by anyone's ears.
Interesting. The pcm91 I had was running XLR analog input and outs, just like I ran the pcm60. I am guessing that lexicon beefed up the analog input circuitry on the 91 such that pushing it hard, it still stayed clean, so that iput overload occurred in the digital domain before analog reached clip. Based in the fact that the analog distortion of the 60 does well, even in direct mode with the reverb bypassed, I think the desirable sound is founded in the analog circuit design. And there is a cool reverb sound as well.
Cool and informative video, but it was unclear if you found out what the difference was between the 'new' and original unit. Was it as you said not "using it wrong " or was there something hardware wise that didn't give you that sound?
Ahhh, this is the original unit. Later they released a new unit called a PCM91 that did all kinds of fancy reverbs and such and included in the unit was a patch that was supposed to sound like the old discontinued PCM 60. That way people could buy the new unit and have access to the sound of the older unit. Which is what I did. Only yo find out that the new unit was unable to recreate the sound of the old unit in the way I was using the old unit.
Overloading the front end of many newer units doesn’t give you crunch, just digital glitchy distortion, my work-around, putting a nice crunchy limiter before the front-end, not exactly the same but not too far away…-
@@DaveRat The PCM 41 delay can distorts nicely too but they went and put a limiter on the PCM 42 front end. 'The Man' obviously isn't down with input overload.
Wow, 60 over the 70? Cool! Got me thinking I want to fuck with the gain staging on my MPX-1, and see if I can get anything pleasant out of a hot front end on it.
FWIW, I have a pcm90 that to me sounds fantastic as stereo in/out as a general room and vibe on the pcm 60 emulation, and you can alter that all over the place. Sort of some weird magic to it that doesn't work the same when mono in, stereo out. One side died, but I can still get stereo in/out if I use spdif in, but it's the same thing in that it lost all the mojo somehow. Also have the lex plugins and just can't get that same thing happening even close with those. And the 90, I wasn't overloading it or anything. Anyway, I think these old units are just magic, and I wish they could be repaired, or at least you could buy a new one. My PCM80 has the same problem as the 90 now too. :( I took it in for repair and they said they aren't repairable.
Cool! Learning stuff is fun. I know many things, but live sound setups is not an area I have loads of knowledge in. What are your thoughts on compressors live... I realize that’s super vague, and sorry if you’ve already covered the subject and I missed the video, or videos. Thanks for the knowledge!
Dave Rat Watched it, thanks! It was enlightening. I saw the Chili Peppers once here is Marysville Ca. Maybe you ran that show. It was great! STP was with em. Wow!!!
Hey Dave, every pcm60 I see online has the red on/off button. Mine has a black one, was it switched by a previous owner or is this from a different batch or something?
Is the crunch coming from the analogue input of the PCM60? If so, you should be able to get the same effect by adding an analogue device in front of the PCM91 and overloading that. You'd have a lot more colour options, too. I used to use the front-end of an '80s 8-bit DDL as an overdrive in the same way. But I set that to 100% dry, because the digitally clipped signal was unmusical.
I believe so the analog front-end is what gives that crunch and yes you could try and find an analog device to add the crunch to other reverbs, or you could even use a PCM 60 with the reverb turned off as the crunch for a PCm91
Today I finally got my pcm 60... beautiful...but I have a problem with the plate sound, cause it sounds like an inverse reverb...might be the version 2, as I read in the www...ist there a possibility to disable that inverse function?
@@DaveRat Impulse responses. sorry lazy typing on my part. if you made impulse responses could use these in a studio environment or live using Waves IR player Live or similar long after all the units are dead and buried. Am sure you would have done it before but you basically record the result of a sweep running through the unit at different settings. you can grab the actual sweep for waves from their website.
Maybe it would still sound different? you wouldn't get the all the settings in between it would just be a snapshot of the unit being hit at as many levels as you capture. could make for a cool follow up video?
@@gavmurray7398 super cool. Yeah, I will leave that to someone with more skills in that realm. I like to stay in the position of pointing things out that I feel are unique to my perspective and skills
I used the 60 for all my drum verbs with the drums over driving the input and also sent a bit of vocal in at a lower level, not overdriving. Giving me dirty drums and a gentle vocal verb at the same time from the same unit.
It's all about options and finding the desired sound for the application. Perhaps the same reverb sound is not ideal for a string quartet as mixing 4age against the machine. But being able to use the same old school reverb to dial in both music types is awesome
@@DaveRat sorry to bother you again Dave I’m looking for a recording console older console that has punchy sound for drums I found the sound craft sapphire what would you recomend
Here's one I've been meaning to ask for a while -- when using one effect, let's say a verb for both drums and vox, how do you route the FX return? To drum bus? To vox bus? Straight to L/R? Seems like any choice is a compromise, especially when using the bus comp system.
Yes, I guess using one verb for multiple source types is a compromise, though I do it alot. I usually route the effect return to the groups of the instrument that is sent most to the effect. So drums and vox to a verb, I typically use more of the verb on drums than vox.
Loved the 70 for a less crunchy verb but it was harder to get around presets and I think the 70 is more easily emulated with plug ins. The 60 was very mechanical to operate and so very fast to use
Hmmm, what is it doing? Usally it is either the solder on the rear jacks or the "mix" pot goes intermittent when all the way clockwise. So just re solder the jacks or turn the mix pot slightly counterclockwise and it usually works fine
Until the mid-2000s the go-to Lexicon repair person in the USA was a guy named Jim Fabiano but he got out of the repair biz around 2006. If you search his name you might find some audio forum threads with suggestions for other good repairs sources. Also, if Jim Williams is still running his Audio Upgrades business then he might be your best bet for not just the repair but a potential improvement.
Hmmm, who has the credibility to judge whether something is good or bad without defining the application or desired outcome? Not unlike someone who drives a Lexus mocking someone for driving Volkswagen while the Lexus driver is mocked by a Ferrari driver and yet it turns out that the Volkswagen is a dune buggy and the application at hand is off-roading and and the Volkswagen driver laughs at all of them as they get stuck in the mud. My experience has been that successful professionals have an appreciation for a wide variety of gear types and tend to be open minded, curious and fascinated by ways to achieve unique and useful sonic landscapes.
And can you name a single modern effect unit that creates that super crunchy thick reverb sound of a pcm60 with an over driven input? When I was mixing arenas that are inherently reverberant, having a reverb that sounds like a crunchy verb without having any natural room sound to it was a huge challenge. Adding more natural sound verb to a reverberant venue was not ideal, yet I needed to add efx to bring to create a reverb sound. Using newer emulators that are built to pretend to sound like vintage units is popular but sometime actually using the unit that the modern crap is trying to copy is the best way. But, yes, there are many people that prefer imitations of older stuff to the actual older stuff.
@@DaveRat I suppose if you like noisy reverbs it's tough to find something quite as bad. PCM 70 maybe? almost as bad. PCM 60 is pretty bad by today's standards. I used them in the 80s and I thought they sucked then. There are many reverbs that are better. Also why would you use a reverb unit in an arena? that is idiotic. The arena is the reverb.
May your career be as successful as the logic and understanding that your opinions are founded upon. Thank you for the smiles! And if you ever do become successful drop me a note and let me know if those dedications to opinions that exceed the depths of your knowledge served your journey well.
![[TH] 2024 PMSL SEA W2D5 | Fall | พลาดวันนี้ จะต้องเสียใจ](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/A5-Cuo12p6A/mqdefault.jpg)
Please DON’T ever stop doing videos Dave! I have learnt so much from you!
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More proof that "vintage" is sometimes more than just snobbery. Great message, thanks.
Yeah, i think the importance of testing, comparing and listening can not be under stated.
I remember the first time I played a vintage Gibson with an old school vibrato system... I became a believer in vintage! I was able to beat the snot out of the vibrato bar and it would NOT go out of tune. Crazy.
It is just transistors overdriving, there are many plugins to emulate transistor, preamp, power tube, transformer, speaker distortion or any type of mojo you could want. Just dial it up, put it before your verb, or after, maybe on the wet and the dry...there is so much flexibility now. Never has it been more true to say there is more than one ways than one to skin a cat.
@@bradmodd7856 I've been recently into Kush plugins, many of them are really about what you are describing. But I also like what he said about "happy accident" that become desirable sounds. And now, here we are stacking different plugins to replicate those sounds.
@@snapascrew what's a vibrato bar?
Random comment but - just wanted to say : Cheers Dave and thanks for sharing with us over the years. It's been helpful and much appreciated. Be safe.
Thank you Scott!
Thanks again, Dave! I had heard about overloading the front of these, so great to hear an actual demonstration.
Cool cool
This is a beautiful thing. Thanks for putting together such an elegant example of the magic sauce!
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That is what we miss from the best analog consoles. A whole range of tone comes from just the head amp gain. Both SSL and Neve, though different to each other, exhibit this same behavior and many struggled to find their snare sounds, in particular, when transitioning to digital desks.
Agreed
I had an opportunity to purchase a PCM 60 for $60 at a music store in Columbus, OH in the mid 90's. Should have bought it because I saw the selling on Ebay for $600 in 2010 ish. I still remember when the PCM 60 came out and revolutionized the digital reverb industry. Thanks for sharing...
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Lol I understand! I'm having the same issue replacing a 91 with the Plug-ins. I need the knobs on the PCM91 to get my sounds the wrong way. Have a great day!
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It was interesting to see the oscilloscope display the differences in the envelope. Nice, Dave! Hedd unit i got from you is working great!
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Wow, it makes so much sense - what you have said about emulation. They emulate the (intended) output, but not the actual inner workings of the device. And by emulating - they make the output discrete and limited, since it's very hard or impossible to emulate all the ranges of the analog transformations.
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I really enjoy the passion you have for great sound and the importance that you place on detail. Superb.
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Love this stuff! Thanks for sharing Dave.
Thank you Michael!
One day in th 80's, my 909 just sounded a lot more Rock'n'Roll than usual. Took me 10 minutes to find out why: I severly overloaded the input of my cheap Microverb gated reverb. I got a decent rock sound out of that 909, which is certainly not what I had thought. :-)
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Very cool stuff! Thanks for taking the time to drop some more knowledge on us!
Thank you!
Very cool, never tried a PCM-60, want to after seeing this. Can’t wait for the DBX-120 vid, I’ve had one in the rack for so long I can’t even remember when I bought it, one of my faves. Great as always Dave.
Very cool. The DBX I am going to test with is the 120Xds. An odd home HiFi DJ unit with RCA jacks, they are awesome!
I feel similarly about the H3000 vs other, newer Harmonizers- the good-bad AD/DA converters have such a cool sheen to them
Love the H3000/H3500!
Thank you Dave. Your knowledge will live forever. I know folks don't understand us
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Sooo good mate. Doing things wrong often gives us the sound that becomes best practice. Great word!
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Lmao. The difference is huge. Great cracking snare sound with that overdrive. Love it. Thanks for sharing that Dave !!
Awesome
Proof that everyone loves their first real reverb unit. Mine was the lxp-15. I opened it once and it was wall to wall chips on the inside. I paid $850 for it and had to drive to Santa Monica to pick it up.
I had one of those, other than the input noise it worked well. My first reverb was a Yamaha that had 4 buttons and sounded like crap. 4 levels of useless! Ahh, good times
It’s crazy how much colour and crunch you can put on drums before they actually sound obviously distorted
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there are so many distortion plugins now it has become standard to put distortion plugins on so many things we never even thought of before, load a distortion plugin up on your verb...put it before, put it after, do both...put it on the source too!
@@bradmodd7856 Just because that's an industry fad doesn't mean it's a good thing.
My experience has been that the number of plugins used is inversely proportional to the quality of the final sound
@@DaveRat I would 100% agree with that, less is more. I always try to take that approach in my mixing anymore.
Dave!
You are doing important work here by sharing what I call Jurassic Audio Technology and practical empirically proven hacks.
In 1984 I bought one of the first available Lexicon 200s just before a tour, the first night I used it I noticed the input pegging on the snare and loved it.
I questioned a rep at Lexicon and they told me that there was a limiter built in to the D to A, sounds like the PCM 60 also has that same front end.
Oh and the Lex 200 is still in use here at my studio, just did a complete rebuild, still haven't found anything that sits in the mix the same way.
Just brought back a lot of memories!! My favorite 80s era snare verb was the pcm 60 set to large room with the shortest time (two reds and green) mixed with the “Alive” setting of a Klark Teknik DN 780. Ahh hardware!!
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I had a PCM60 I got in perfect condition for $30. I sold it because my other Lexi had the same algorithms plus more. I miss that thing though. I'm glad I still have the ole' 8-bit Ibanez delay though!
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More of this please! Love the classic rack gear.
Cool cool, will do more!
Kinda cool. In the modern, digital world you'd do a sound like that by clipping/limiting the high end, then running into reverb. Certainly a very cool effect to give the snare a ton of punch.
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Excited to see a video about the DBX subharmonic synth and how you employ them.
On it and also excited to actually test and demo something I have used for years live
Unbelievable it seems to boost an actual rasp of a snare
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Thanks for sharing Dave....
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I bought the Lexicon MPX-1 when it first hit the market. I later bought a second one. But it didn't sound like the 1st. That distorts sound in some way. I sent them back and they replaced another EPROM, and then worked just as well as the first one. The sound is really great.
Oooh, I had that and the multi efx one as well.
great video. in addition to overdriven crunch, i'm hearing more early reflections which could be contributing to the higher frequencies.
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I have been looking for 3D stl files for the knobs on my PCM 60 and I found them on your website! Thanks for all the great work you do!
Awesome!! Let me know how the print works out
@@DaveRat Well I just restored a Deltalab Effectron that was broken and missing the buttons and knobs. After fixing it I 3D printed the buttons but the knobs are difficult....Then I was messing around with my Lexicon PCM 60 and realized that it has exactly the same knobs as the Deltalab ! Thanks again.
Bots: "Bu' I put 'hem both through analysers and they do "revers phase cancel each other out", you're not using plugins correctly sir and offending math and science". Mean while Analog still sounding as warm as ever! Thanks for this walkthrough, Had to subscribe to come back for more, Cheers!
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Cool! Thanks a lot!
One of my favorites of all time is the Roland SDE-2000 (And SDE-1000 or 3000 for what few differences there are) And because I always found that footswitch to be "Awkward", I loved the trick of just plugging a 1/4 line into that foot switch tap-temp and using the other end to just slap in my hand to the speed/rhythm I wanted. (Because the band NEVER played at the same tempo every night! lol) And that band did a few reggae songs where they would let me go nuts on the delays to do kind of a live Lee Scratch Perry dub-mix. I have never found another digital unit that was as easy and could do what that unit did, and certainly none of the effects engines on any of the digital boards (That Im aware of) could do that....even with a "Tap" button.
Ha! Yes, love the roland 1/4" timing tap on anything trick!
" ... not doing things as the manufacturer intended ..." 🤣🤣🤣🤣
Isnt that the whole point of experimenting with 'new' toys?
I remember the first time I used one of these and, Dave, you are right.
They were a game changer (especially when used with a delay and cascading gates on the return).
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I listened on AirPods so don’t trust me, but it seems like the compression from the overloading is leveling out the signal and making the high end appear to be more present in a very nice way. Thanks for the vid!
Agreed, cool that it even shows on the air pods!
you have awesome timing with posts, man. always dropping nuggets of creativity and practicality right when my workflow needs a jolt. stoked to see the dbx 120 video... i got one of the old ones with two horizontal sliders and love it (until the bypass switch shit the bed) B-)
Yes, the DBX 120Xds will be the one I test with. That is my fav of the bunch
@@DaveRat gnarly! we actually got into the subharmonic synth world after seeing a video where juan alderete discussed using a dod meatbox pedal live with the mars volta to keep low end booming after following acts who use 808s n whatnot. I'm curious if you mixed the mars volta's sound when they toured with the peppers, because the meatbox and dbx120 are both sub-dumpers but in different ways. cheers!
@@LaTigerGenesis I mixed Mars a few times, but not on the peppers tour
I never got try the PCM60, I do own a PCM70 which I love dearly and still use all the time.
I like the 70 too. More finesse and cleaner and can get some very cool sounds
One of my fav hardware reverb in studio.
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Always great content , thanks Dave! ...
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I found this is the thing with the old alesis revebs also, if dirts your thing just overdrive them .Lovely crunch.
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had the exact same experience using another oldie but goodie back in the day, the Deltalab 1024 for slap back echo for a rockabilly vocal. Overloading the input was the secret. Never could get the same sound just entering the identical parameters into modern effects units. And for sure, the red LEDs flashed well before approaching any audible distortion. For that application it wasn’t “the crunch” I was looking for, but just an authentic rockabilly sound.
Yes, I love that!
Thanks for the video Dave.
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I really regret selling my PCM 60 a few years ago, it was near mint too. But end the end I decided to keep my Model 200, Model 300, PCM80 and PCM 70. The Model 200 had that thick 80's reverb sound for me.
All those are great units!
Thanks for showing us :D
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Great stuff Dave cheers 👍🏾
Thank you Robert
Great Video Dave,
Awesome
Reminds me of the DOD 680 that I used because I couldn't afford to get a digital delay back then. And when I could get digital, I gave it away, only to find out that I could have made my money back. Live and learn.
Yeah, certain gear just has that wonderful balance of sound, ease of use and look that make it timeless
Lexicon PCM 60 is awesome.....I use it on my drum bus and i own 2xLexicon 480l and a Bricasti M7....It kicks arse.....
Awesome
sounds like a HP filter being added to the input... but i guess the crunch and non-linearity of the overloaded input creates high frequency and harmonic distortion as it exceeds the input. it'd be interesting to hear a direct out from the unit after the input (or with the processor disabled).
Overload distortion will increase the HF content. And it makes a great overdrive as well. I used it direct for vocal distortion.
So in the PCM 60 models they didn't include the input driving circuit. It would be interesting to test a plug-in they might include that these days as they are getting better at knowing what people want and are getting more accurate with the models.
Yes, would be good. I have also another vid coming that shows how to use a PCM60 as an overdrive distortion unit. Wonder if the emulators will grab that function as well. Ha!
Thanks very instructive !
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Ahhh the sweet sound of the 80’s
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No PCM60 here, so gonna try putting a saturation or distortion plugin before the verb on my reverb send.
Interesting to see how that works. Could be useful
Similar perhaps to Leo Fender never intending his tube amps to overdrive - every iteration / revision over the years increased headroom. But in the field, players had discovered otherwise. Imma dig around some analog gear I have... see what happens when I use it outside of design spec.
Also... Denon D5000s?
Yes and Yes!
I'd put my money on the difference experienced between the two models, in application, was the insertion of the ADC/DAC on the 91. If you weren't running a full AES/EBU signal end-to-end, the ADC/DAC will be audible to the discerning operator. Also, any digital clipping experienced along the way would not be a welcome guest, by anyone's ears.
Interesting. The pcm91 I had was running XLR analog input and outs, just like I ran the pcm60.
I am guessing that lexicon beefed up the analog input circuitry on the 91 such that pushing it hard, it still stayed clean, so that iput overload occurred in the digital domain before analog reached clip.
Based in the fact that the analog distortion of the 60 does well, even in direct mode with the reverb bypassed, I think the desirable sound is founded in the analog circuit design. And there is a cool reverb sound as well.
Cool and informative video, but it was unclear if you found out what the difference was between the 'new' and original unit. Was it as you said not "using it wrong " or was there something hardware wise that didn't give you that sound?
Ahhh, this is the original unit. Later they released a new unit called a PCM91 that did all kinds of fancy reverbs and such and included in the unit was a patch that was supposed to sound like the old discontinued PCM 60. That way people could buy the new unit and have access to the sound of the older unit. Which is what I did. Only yo find out that the new unit was unable to recreate the sound of the old unit in the way I was using the old unit.
Overloading the front end of many newer units doesn’t give you crunch, just digital glitchy distortion, my work-around, putting a nice crunchy limiter before the front-end, not exactly the same but not too far away…-
Agreed and cool
Similar to PCM41/42... The limiters on the input are key to the sound.
👍 8nput overload!
@@DaveRat The PCM 41 delay can distorts nicely too but they went and put a limiter on the PCM 42 front end. 'The Man' obviously isn't down with input overload.
Wow, 60 over the 70? Cool! Got me thinking I want to fuck with the gain staging on my MPX-1, and see if I can get anything pleasant out of a hot front end on it.
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Really good stuff !! Is it possible to make Impulse Response files from your PCM60 with your favorite sounds ?
Thank you Stan, At some point I may dive back into the PCM60 test. pondering doing a comparison between a real PCM60 vs an emulation
FWIW, I have a pcm90 that to me sounds fantastic as stereo in/out as a general room and vibe on the pcm 60 emulation, and you can alter that all over the place. Sort of some weird magic to it that doesn't work the same when mono in, stereo out. One side died, but I can still get stereo in/out if I use spdif in, but it's the same thing in that it lost all the mojo somehow. Also have the lex plugins and just can't get that same thing happening even close with those. And the 90, I wasn't overloading it or anything. Anyway, I think these old units are just magic, and I wish they could be repaired, or at least you could buy a new one. My PCM80 has the same problem as the 90 now too. :( I took it in for repair and they said they aren't repairable.
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Who said pro audio people are not audio files, I’ve worked on both sides of the fence
Audiophile is an interesting group dedicated to trying to achieve sonic perfection at any cost using the inherently flawed concept of stereo
Cool! Learning stuff is fun. I know many things, but live sound setups is not an area I have loads of knowledge in. What are your thoughts on compressors live... I realize that’s super vague, and sorry if you’ve already covered the subject and I missed the video, or videos.
Thanks for the knowledge!
Maybe check out this vid - th-cam.com/video/MMMmR1u0CFk/w-d-xo.html
Dave Rat Watched it, thanks! It was enlightening. I saw the Chili Peppers once here is Marysville Ca. Maybe you ran that show. It was great! STP was with em. Wow!!!
Hey Dave, every pcm60 I see online has the red on/off button. Mine has a black one, was it switched by a previous owner or is this from a different batch or something?
Is the crunch coming from the analogue input of the PCM60? If so, you should be able to get the same effect by adding an analogue device in front of the PCM91 and overloading that. You'd have a lot more colour options, too. I used to use the front-end of an '80s 8-bit DDL as an overdrive in the same way. But I set that to 100% dry, because the digitally clipped signal was unmusical.
I believe so the analog front-end is what gives that crunch and yes you could try and find an analog device to add the crunch to other reverbs, or you could even use a PCM 60 with the reverb turned off as the crunch for a PCm91
Off-topic....Are Denon AH-D2000 still your Mighty Headphones of choice? What model are you using here?
Thanks for all you do!
Those are the demon 5000s. I haven't dived back into headphones for a while. But the demon 2000 and 5000 are truly awesome
Today I finally got my pcm 60... beautiful...but I have a problem with the plate sound, cause it sounds like an inverse reverb...might be the version 2, as I read in the www...ist there a possibility to disable that inverse function?
hey Dave, will this trick also work for the PCM41?
Yes it should cuz I believe it has the same input preamp and it was made around the same time.
Neat!
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Hi Dave. Would this unit be on Bulls On Parade or is the snare reverb down to Andy Wallace ?
Yeah it would only be on rage against the machine live recordings that I did which there are a few out there
Aaaaaaaand their price just doubled! nice vid dave maybe you could make some ir's of the unit for Patreon's? I love those old grainy reverbs
IR's?
@@DaveRat Impulse responses. sorry lazy typing on my part. if you made impulse responses could use these in a studio environment or live using Waves IR player Live or similar long after all the units are dead and buried. Am sure you would have done it before but you basically record the result of a sweep running through the unit at different settings. you can grab the actual sweep for waves from their website.
Maybe it would still sound different? you wouldn't get the all the settings in between it would just be a snapshot of the unit being hit at as many levels as you capture. could make for a cool follow up video?
@@gavmurray7398 super cool. Yeah, I will leave that to someone with more skills in that realm. I like to stay in the position of pointing things out that I feel are unique to my perspective and skills
@@DaveRat Send me your pmc 60 and i will do it haha 😂
Great video! Was wondering how it sounds on other audio sources ? (guitar, vocals, piano..)
I used it on vocals with excellent results. It is the best sounding overdrive I have found.
Hello Dave, is a great video, does your unit have the regular 1.0 firmware or the 2.0 firmware update?
My unit has the 1.0, Rat owns 3 or 4 and some are 2.0, some are 1.0.
Do you happen to have any preferences depending on what type uses or instruments?
I used the 60 for all my drum verbs with the drums over driving the input and also sent a bit of vocal in at a lower level, not overdriving. Giving me dirty drums and a gentle vocal verb at the same time from the same unit.
It's a hidden gem.
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@@DaveRat are you on Facebook?
Yes, as Dave Rat!
@@DaveRat there are more than one Dave Rat on Facebook.
m.facebook.com/1drat
like it better not overdriven...smoother fuller more natural. But if you like the driven thinner trashy sound more power to you
It's all about options and finding the desired sound for the application. Perhaps the same reverb sound is not ideal for a string quartet as mixing 4age against the machine. But being able to use the same old school reverb to dial in both music types is awesome
Hey Dave, did you give a shout to Lexicon about putting a clipper in their PCM60 emulator?
I have another pcm60 video coming soon that shows using it as a distortion vocal effect. I'd love to see a pcm60 emulator used in that way and work!
Now I feel selfish for owning 4 PCM 60's. I love 'em.
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Hi Dave great video do you use it on vocals if not which one do you use
I love the PCM60 and would use it as a vocal verb as well as a drum verb.
@@DaveRat sorry to bother you again Dave I’m looking for a recording console older console that has punchy sound for drums I found the sound craft sapphire what would you recomend
Hmmm, don't know recording consoles that well. I do remember the older Midas like the xl3 and xl2 were punchy and edgy.
Here's one I've been meaning to ask for a while -- when using one effect, let's say a verb for both drums and vox, how do you route the FX return? To drum bus? To vox bus? Straight to L/R? Seems like any choice is a compromise, especially when using the bus comp system.
Yes, I guess using one verb for multiple source types is a compromise, though I do it alot.
I usually route the effect return to the groups of the instrument that is sent most to the effect. So drums and vox to a verb, I typically use more of the verb on drums than vox.
Did you ever use the Yamaha SPX90 for live reverb? Those things can get pretty crunchy too.
Yeah. The spx90 was the most common effect for a while, lots of presets and useful.
Very interesting. What are your thoughts on the PCM70?
Loved the 70 for a less crunchy verb but it was harder to get around presets and I think the 70 is more easily emulated with plug ins. The 60 was very mechanical to operate and so very fast to use
Tnks dave
awesome thank you!
I love my pcm 60. It has chips with photo cells. Apparently you erase them with light.
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can you make another rat shop tour or talk about storage solutions ?
Actually there is a rat tour done by Ivan in the works that will post on the rat sound Facebook when done
Well alright.
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Phooaarr! Hardcore sound porn.
Thanks for the insider knowledge 🙂
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Nice Dorrough 120 where have I seen one of them lately. LOL. JOSEF HI-FI VU METERS LOL
Awesome!!
PCM60 is my favorite! Mine started malfunctioning recently, do you know anyone who's good at repairing them?
Hmmm, what is it doing? Usally it is either the solder on the rear jacks or the "mix" pot goes intermittent when all the way clockwise. So just re solder the jacks or turn the mix pot slightly counterclockwise and it usually works fine
Until the mid-2000s the go-to Lexicon repair person in the USA was a guy named Jim Fabiano but he got out of the repair biz around 2006. If you search his name you might find some audio forum threads with suggestions for other good repairs sources. Also, if Jim Williams is still running his Audio Upgrades business then he might be your best bet for not just the repair but a potential improvement.
@@LiveSoundTips great info, thank you!
As always, I thank YOU,@@DaveRat! Your sharing of knowledge is immensely appreciated. 🙏👏🖖
@@LiveSoundTips 👍
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is this a mono device?
Mono in, stereo out
it's as if you imply that this unit is good
Hmmm, who has the credibility to judge whether something is good or bad without defining the application or desired outcome? Not unlike someone who drives a Lexus mocking someone for driving Volkswagen while the Lexus driver is mocked by a Ferrari driver and yet it turns out that the Volkswagen is a dune buggy and the application at hand is off-roading and and the Volkswagen driver laughs at all of them as they get stuck in the mud.
My experience has been that successful professionals have an appreciation for a wide variety of gear types and tend to be open minded, curious and fascinated by ways to achieve unique and useful sonic landscapes.
@@DaveRat I just think a 40 year old hardware unit has run its course. We have computers now.
And can you name a single modern effect unit that creates that super crunchy thick reverb sound of a pcm60 with an over driven input?
When I was mixing arenas that are inherently reverberant, having a reverb that sounds like a crunchy verb without having any natural room sound to it was a huge challenge.
Adding more natural sound verb to a reverberant venue was not ideal, yet I needed to add efx to bring to create a reverb sound.
Using newer emulators that are built to pretend to sound like vintage units is popular but sometime actually using the unit that the modern crap is trying to copy is the best way.
But, yes, there are many people that prefer imitations of older stuff to the actual older stuff.
@@DaveRat I suppose if you like noisy reverbs it's tough to find something quite as bad. PCM 70 maybe? almost as bad. PCM 60 is pretty bad by today's standards. I used them in the 80s and I thought they sucked then. There are many reverbs that are better. Also why would you use a reverb unit in an arena? that is idiotic. The arena is the reverb.
May your career be as successful as the logic and understanding that your opinions are founded upon.
Thank you for the smiles!
And if you ever do become successful drop me a note and let me know if those dedications to opinions that exceed the depths of your knowledge served your journey well.
How drunk are you?
Sometimes people have a hard time getting their heads around simple things but will gladly explain it further
That's ratty.
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@@DaveRat ;->