Blues Creek Guitars - Discussion on Compensated Saddles
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 8 ก.ย. 2024
- Another Quick tip video by Blues Creek Guitars. This time a discussion on compensated saddles, and how it impacts your set-up. John also covers other set-up tips that will be very helpful.
This gentleman KNOWS what he’s talking about 👍He WALKS the WALK and TALKS the TALK!! Much respect and admiration 🍻
A luthier who admits to not having perfect pitch hearing…..honest and realistic with others….🤔👍 a luthier worth a visit ☺️👏👏👍
Some of the best and most accurate info I've seen! Thanks for sharing!
John, great teaching here. Thank you for your way.
Thank you for making these videos. I started doing setups 30 years out of necessity, with no formal training, and had to sort of figure it out. I've figured out most of this by trial and error, and it;s nice to learn that mostly I was right, and it sure is nice to hear someone explain just how many factors go into intonation so very clearly.
I also appreciate your humility in doing so, which serves to make the knowledge you impart more accessible. For those of us who've been around a while, it is clear that the level of craftsmanship in guitar building and repair has gotten much better that say, since the 1960's ( factories not included) ...we have all seen work from respected luthiers done 40 years ago that would be viewed as substandard these days. The world has marveled at the fine guitars coming out of the US, and videos like this only contributes to the advancement of the art. Again, thanks!
neverlooksatit Thanks so much for the kind words we hare here to help
This has to be the most informative video on youtube about acoustic guitar intonation. Thank you for demystifying this subject for me.
Great information as always John! Thanks
...... confirmed my issue quickly! detailed videos like this are awesome! appreciate your knowledge and time bud... great video!
I just want to thank john for all the information that he gives us for free .plus it is always gonna be correct information .thank you very much,& I look foward to continue learning from a seasoned veteran.
glad to help
My head blew up when he got to compression fretting, but I love the total geekiness of this. He explains EVERYTHING and demystifies intonation, temperament, et al. I lvoe how he uses process of elimination to diagnose intonation and action issues. My stage guitar has had that "sitar" zing on B and high E, and I've had every opinion under the sun about cuase. Now I know why.
Thank you. I appreciate your straight forward approach. I'm the type that loves being loaded up with info and figuring it out as I go. I call it learning through osmosis.
Your videos are very informative and helpful. Thanks again
Thanks for sharing your wealth of knowledge with us!
You, sir, covered it all. Thank you!
Absolutely invaluable information! I was looking for tips on compensation and setup and this has been very helpful. I’ll be watching it again (I’m a non-native speaker and used to metric measurements) for sure to remember
thanks for your comments. We are here to help and have more planned soon
glad you found this useful. Thanks for your input
Fantastic!
Fantastic.....can now do my bridge correctly.
Thank you so much, this is such an arcane subject.
You're good! Great video. I refretted a few and this is great additional knowledge that's hard to find.
I happy you find the info helpful that is why we do it.
I have a little Bedel that sounds amazing for a 100.00 guitar with a solid spruce top.
I refretted it and sloped the neck from the 10th fret to the 20th...it turned out well and got rid of the little hump problem at the body. No more buzz and low action. I still have an intonation problem on the bottom "E" string and I can't file the saddle back anymore. I cut a small piece of 56 gauge string and slipped it under the E string and it cleaned up the intonation but I'm wondering if you've ever installed a small piece of fret in the finger board between the main nut and first fret to correct intonation. It would look better than another piece of nut a 1/4 inch from the main nut. I'm guessing it would need to be higher than the first fret and I'd have to file down the E string nut slot to get good angle to the machine head.
I really don't care what it looks like....it plays like a champ and that's it to me.
thanks glad to help
Great video, very informative,and very well explained. Thank you.
Excellent. Thank you.
Thank you John...
I shure wish I had watched this video yesterday morning!
Finally have a professional opinion on this subject.
Thanks, really helpful video. At 15:25 you mention the perfect setup as 3/8 for the bridge and 1/8 for the saddle. Could you explain more what this means? Is that thickness of the bridge and the height of the saddle extending from the bridge?
yes you want to have about a total of 1/2 in height from the top to the strings So the most saddle I want is .190 inch of saddle above the bridge. and if you have a .325 bridge height a saddle height of .175 would be acceptable.
Overall nice job. Agree with 99%. I think of some of the things you said a bit differently, but it comes to the same result. When installing new bridges I never measure any more. Rather, I float the bridge/saddle under the two E strings which are attached to a temporary fixture hung over the tail of the guitar attached to the end pin. This allows me to tune the strings to pitch and then move the bridge/saddle until the intonation is perfect. Then I mark the location and glue it down. Like you said, its still not always perfect on the rest of the strings but it is about as close as you can get. I am not a fan of compensated nuts. Never use them.
Compensating a nut affords better intonation in the upper register. A little one way or the other allows for tweaking for the player. With this method I am 99% perfect. There is always a trade off. Find the method that works best for you and your clients. One thing missing in your method is the stresses applied to the bridge. How do you compensate for that ?
I had done the same thing and found that most of those guitars were sharp on intonation and had to recut the saddle slot about a 1/16 in to bring intonation in. That is why I measure.
brilliant thank you
My 12 strings perfectly compensated. I watched the luthier set it up. 12 individual positions for each string. He used a tiny piece of cigarette paper folded over the string over the 12th fret and adjusted the saddle position with a file until the paper didn't jump off because it was dead centre on the sine wave. QED. Don't understand why no one else does it.
John, one question; I have a Takamine that came from factory with plastic nut and saddle and take some time thinking about to replace both for bone ones, would it worth to improve it's sound? Thanks and cheers!
yes bone will help
@@tippie53 Thank you very much professor John! Once again, love your channel, cheers from Argentine!
Hey Mate, My frame of reference was only to the pre-80's period. After that they LEARNED to make guitars the way the people, (most) like them. Now, if they would work on their pricing, not just them either. I've owned three Taylors, and say the same for them, work, work, work!! Gb bg
+george scarlett that may be true but those guitars are worth a good bit of money. A 1937 D 38 would be $70,000 in avg shape . It all depends on what the market calls cool.
The compression set neck is a whole NEW VIDEO. Talking about it here is complicating the discussion on 'compensated' saddles.
I use anything on the nut fish glue is my favorite The saddle is fish of hhg. Martin uses CA
Santa Cruz, and maybe Collings Guitars have the saddle top tipped backwards 5-10 degrees toward the bridge-pins. This 1. equalizes string pressure from the bridge-pins, 2. alleviates (to a point) top-bucking, and, 3. if someone plays the Guitar who prefers higher action, lengthens the strings so they note truer when a taller saddle is used.
In addition, Have you checked out the StewMac roller thingy they sell for setting up saddle intonation? Old Dan E. is one sharp cookie, and since they usually provide excellent photo's of their specialty tooling, I've managed to "clone" several of them, the latest being their Bridge Saddle-Slot Routing jig, Thanx S.M.!! Gb
+george scarlett that tool has been around a long time and is nothing new. Each guitar is a bit different and anything you can do to help intonation to your ear is a good thing.
You are right, on a 12 string it is a compromise. Not all guitars need compensation , it is an individual thing. Sometimes you have to trust your ear.. I do go with the main strings on the intonation and then temper tune the octave. it is the 3 through 6 strings that you need to do this . You can also tweak on the nut , to help. If you can get to within a few cents you should be fine.
I can tell you that it doens't stop top buckling. They also have a bit of a different bracing system. The tipped saddle has been around for a long time . IT is just a different way to do things. The bridge shape and plate structure all come into this. As far as intonation and compensation , it matters not and in many ways the tilted saddle becomes an issue . You can't stop a guitar body from deflection because of stress. Eventually the guitar needs a reset. IF you like a higher action the forward lean of the saddle will actually shorten the compensation length and that can cause intonation issues. It is all about matching that working string length to the scale length to get the intonation the best you can.
Thanks
you can have perfect intonation all over the guitar neck...if you change the length of the frets themselves accordingly for each string...assymetric frets,not a straight line
Fan frets never seem to catch one and I have played a few . I am not a fan. With nut and saddle compensation the intonation can be greatly approved .
@@bluescreekguitars3346 he was talking about true temperament fretting, which is even more exotic. But like you say... on electric guitars with well cut nut and reasnoably low action, not even nut compensation and just the intonation set for the 12th fret on the neck, an electronic tuner shows all the notes in tune when I play them lightly just to check the tuning. Everone who says they need these exotic solutions basically say they can hear more than 1/100 of a semitone difference, which is just obsessive bullshit 99,99% of the time.
glad to help
good Teacher ..thank you for your vidéo
hm , what glue is used to glue the saddle and nut?
Nice video.... Just curious how all of this changes with a 12 string acoustic. It seems you would need lots of shaving the saddle when you have a thick string next to the thinner string.
My 12 string has a 6mm wide bone saddle and each string was positioned to correct the intonation. It took the luthier hours to do it but my 12 string stays in tune when I change the capo position. Thats what Paid for...a perfectly intonated 12 string.
Lately I’ve been replacing a lot of nuts and saddles, seems that the B and low E are always needing the most compensation. Any idea why that would be instead of the A?
that is the norm I allow about 1/10 inch more than the scale length for allowing the tweaking of intonation after a settle in period
Anyone that doesn't glue in a nut is asking for trouble. The nut has to be fixed. Without glue the nut can vibrate and can become a dampener. On a saddle , a drop in won't need to be glued in but through saddles do need to be glued . This is in part to imply structure to the saddle. In a through saddle , if you don't glue this in , a crack most likely will form and blow out the front of the bridge. All experts that I know glue them in. On a tail piece you can go without glue. Thinking that strings hold them in place , just remember that glue "freezes" the nut and keeps it from vibrating.
what if the nut has a snug fit plus the pressure from the strings?
What TYPE of glue should be used,and how MUCH?? Thanks
way over my head, but I enjoyed the video. :)
Where do you measure the scale length at the saddle? Is it at the front or middle of the high E? I've watched a lot of videos and read lots of material on the subject and it's never clear where they are measuring to on the saddle. Most just say to the the middle. That could be interrupted as being between the G and D strings. Help me get this straight.
I've had good success using the StewMac Saddlematic except for one time when gluing bridge with Tightbond and the bridge skated around slightly. I now use Hot hide glue. I enjoy your videos. Thanks for your help.
You are over thinking this. In my video you only use the E strings. So when you are making a guitar if your doing a flat pick or blue grasser you want to be at the front if your finger pickin go to the middle of the slot. The jigs are not reliable and I measure it is more accurate.
wood will move a little glue is needed and if it moves it will throw your intonation off
Quick question - What do you think of the Earvana compensated nut as a practical non-invasive off-the-shelf version of the Feiten system? I put a couple of those on my favorite 2 electrics and they sweeten things up considerably to my ear and my overall intonation is as close to perfect all over the neck as I think I've ever experienced in 50+ years at this shit. Have you ever tried one on a flat top?
+Michael Johnstone The ability to compensate at both ends is a big thing in adjusting the intonation. There is a curse to having too good an ear . The only draw back , even like the Feiten system if your band mates are not hooked on to the same system things can sound hinkey .
Oh, BTW, is that one of those 70's Martins that came from the factory with the saddle playing sharp?
neverlooksatit No I have had a number of these in the shop about 20% are off.
I'm confused, The statement, "scale length for this discussion is going to be irrelevant". However, the following statement contradicts the irrelevance of said scale length. My understanding is that intonation in its-self is a scale. Therefore, relevance does exist.
what the point was , that no matter what the scale length the purpose of intonation is use the width of the saddle to tune in the intonation on each string so 24.9 scale 25.4 the scale length is static and doesn't change so that is not an issue , the variable of the string and individual guitar is. As action is set higher the compensation on the saddle must increase to fine tune the intonation. Also this changes depending on a few other factors. when setting intonation the players style must also be considered. The higher up the neck the more aware the variance on intonation will present itself. So intonation is a variable scale depending on the variables. The variables that are going to influence this is string gauge , action height and relief and the hardest to control is players style. How the string is fretted is an uncontrollable variable.
You're right Mate, I miss-heard Ya. I should have known that with a man of your experience, it should have caused me to "Re-Hear" before the reply, my sincerest apologies. Gb bg Merry Christmas
+george scarlett we are here to help , no apology needed . There are many guitars out there and you find the ones you like. It is a boring world if we all liked the same thing. thanks again for your interest
what's your take on compensated nuts?
it is a tool to use. understanding compensation it just helps to get the intonation that much better. I do use compensation on the nut when I build. This helps adjusting intonation up the neck
Probably be collecting for "show", more than "Go"? Gb bg
+george scarlett I own a number of old martins they are great guitars . It is just like ice cream some like chocolate and some vanilla
True temperament should get you most of the way to perfect intonation
Then you need the whole band to have true temperament fretted instruments or you'll sound out of whack with guys playing their normal guitars.
Disagree about having the bridge top higher than the fret tops. If it is at the SAME level as the frets, it usually allows for a lower action without having to "Level-Shave" the bridge top. Also it seems that the most accepted thought is to start with a ZERO set of neck angle, but I've found that a very "miniscule" percent, (less than one Deg.) works out fine, and will also allow for an initial bridge height of between the 'normal" 3/16", and 3/8". Just sayin' Gb
+george scarlett you misunderstood something the fret plane needs to be above the bridge if it was the other way you would need a neck reset. I don't think I said that. When the neck is relaxed state the fret plane should be about 1/8 in above the bridge.. As for neck angle it all depends on the design. if you don't have any your overall height will be lower that optimun. Most shoot for about a 1/2 in high with bridge and saddle.
flat notes can always be bent higher or fretted harder. Sharp notes can't be saved.
No adjustable truss rod? That's one reason I've never bought a MARTIN, the other two reasons were, 12 frets up to the body, (I'm not mainly a Bluegrasser), and the last reason, FAR TOO expensive, (considering the first two reasons). Martin for years, and years said "Our guitars don't need adjustable truss rods", and that is why, (no doubt) one could at any given time find their repair shops stacked "Floor to Ceiling" with Guitars with these "No Adjustment Needed" necks to be "Pressure fretted", and/or steamed back in shape. Kinda like American car manufacturers telling us we didn't need/want smaller cars? And also like Rickenbacker making their 325 with ONLY the 21" scale length, and sticking, (to this day), with 1.63 across the nut of their 330, and 360 12vers! They can say what they will, (and they do) about Taylor, but at least Taylor is innovative, and SMART enough to listen to their prospective buyers. Well, guess I've "GROUSED" sufficient for now. Good video Mate. Oh, one more thing concerning the Martin on your bench, if it were mine, (or my customers) I would suggest pulling the fretboard, routing out for one of the new "Two-Way" truss rods, and buttoning it back up, thereby eliminating all future problems due to bad original design, and hard-headedness! Gb
+george scarlett I don't know where you get your information Martins have been using adjustable truss rods since the 80's. They switched to the 2 way adjustable rod a few years ago. You are in a minority , Martin is more successful now building over 350 guitars a day. Their quality speaks for itself. While Martin makes 12 frets the D28 and D18 are standards and are 14 frets . You are sadly misinformed and missing a great guitar.
I have owned a few Martins,all had adjustable truss rods,I don’t know who told u that,the real 9d Martins may not have,from
Like a piano always tune the b string flat
PS: No change however in my opinion of "Non-Adjustable" necks. Canoe paddles, all, LOL!
+george scarlett Martin does use adjustable rod since the 1980's. They did hang on to the old ways for a long time. CF Martin was a very contemporary builder , but the company became stuck in tradition. Today they are trying new things. There are many great builders out there today for sure. I bet you can find something you would like.
hi - please put me out of my misery - what does the poster behind your head say that finishes"don't know either"? thanks
Do Not question authority... they don't know either.
Who measures scale length by "nut to 12th fret times two"?? Why not just measure nut to bridge like everyone else?
That is basically industry standard. It has to do with the the 12th fret and the octave
you have missed a very important point . You cannot assume you know the scale length. Without measuring to the 12th fret and doubling how do you know the scale length ? That is how you verify the scale length your working with. So all luthier that set up bridges and saddles do this .
@@tippie53 Again, why not just measure from nut to bridge?
That's literally what scale length *_is,_* correct? The measurement from the nut to the bridge? If I'm measuring from nut to bridge, I'm not _"assuming"_ anything, right? I'm measuring.
I'm not pretending to be a luthier here, I'm seriously asking...
Variability?? Do you mean variable?
Variability Means the same. And yes it is a word
How did you guys made it to the moon with the elbow per toes units?
Dont Question Authority , They don't know either .
Looks strangely stressful to the guitar, leaning on it
I've never seen anyone lean on a guitar like that, it's not a tabletop.
It isn't harmed by this, since he is not really applying his body weight.
tele789 fuckwit
Wont hurt it. Strings put over 150 pounds of pressure on the top when tuned to pitch
This is Great! BUT.......
⚡
Do you have to become a Luthier
to play!
I'm a Painter
I buy brushes
I buy paints
( I even buy canvases )
In this day and age I
thought you could buy a guitar
and PLAY IT ( or Try ) 😳
Help
number A - lol
Cringing at you leaning on that guitar with its neck heel 1" off the table like that
You can see what happened to the last one...just the neck lying on the work bench!
Yep me too...The guy clearly knows what he's doing and the video was superb to be fair but that kind of behaviour would normally make me go elsewhere lol.
It's funny that I rarely hear a guitar so out of tune
You say scale length is irrelevant, then the next sentence, you say you need to know the scale length. Huh?
What I meant by that is it didn't matter what the scale length happens to be , the compensation factor or a steel string will be about the same. The variable to keep in mind is how much the saddle will rotate from the string load on the top and bridge. Using about .100 on the high e and .125 added to that for the low e will get you into the ball park. So understand that say a 24.9 or 25.4 or any scale length for that matter add the compensation length for intonation. Please let me know if you need more information and thanks for your support and interest
John Hall Thanks
irreverent... er... irrelevant Lol :)