I'm glad 1984 came up in the interview. In the late 80s my grandmother and father pretty much forced me to get baptized, but my grandfather who was an elder didn't want me to get baptized. I don't think he ever really believed but was stuck due to the family dynamics. We couldn't fight my grandmother anymore so he ended up studying with me to get baptized... along with Watchtower readings he asked me to read 1984... I was only 19 at the time and I didn't realize what he was trying to tell me until years later. He saw it for what it was.. a few years later he told me how to get out of the organization. I am forever grateful.....
alwaystheway lesson to take away: never rely on a group of people for your significance. it's nice to have support but that support should never turn into a crutch. it was true inside wt and remains true outside wt.
Fantastic. So much goodness. Ex-Jehovah's Witnesses Recovery Group 3 and your videos were instrumental to waking me up--and later for a year I had the privilege to be an admin. in the EX-JW Recovery Group 3. Now I run an FB group for women who have left cults and high-control groups / coercive & abusive relationships. Such an honor to help others as I have been helped. Many thanks and endless gratitude for all of Ruben's and your hard work, dedication, and talent. Sidenote: who on earth can give a Thumbs-Down to such a positive video and message?
Abigail such a positive way to live your life! Helping others from high control groups and abusive relationships is so very needed . Massive Kudos to you!
Enjoy the interview, this fall I will have been out for 5 years, and it was only since January of this year that I really began researching and processing the experience. There are so many excellent resources, this journey has been amazing! I'm a member of the Facebook group and it has opened my eyes to an entire world that I had only seen through one perspective. Thank you for carrying on with this channel and doing all the work you do!
Wow! I wish I had an FB group like yours when I decided to leave at the age of 19 back in 1988! Kudos to you and your group, Mr. Ortiz. Well produced video, btw.
Ruben makes a very good point about tolerance of differing opinions. What a shame that within the exjw community many have blocked and unfriended others because they were not mature enough to accept differing opinions on religion or politics. So much can be learned by the healthy exchange of ideas that comes with tolerating respectful disagreement and debate vs the old JW way of 1 thought fits all the demonizing or putting down of others.
It is great to see there is a Facebook site that supports people who either are leaving or have left the JW's, Kudos to Ruben! Unfortunately some years ago when I joined a Facebook site for ex JW's it was just a flaming site people full of anger : \ and no support. Thank you Lloyd for reaching out to the the community raising awareness.
I got "disfellowshipped" by the ex-JW support group when I most needed help and support. Disfellowshipped by those complaining about being disfellowshipped, lol. I can laugh now, but then, it was anything but laughable. I wasn't disfellowshipped. I came to the realization that I believed out of desire rather than evidence. Ex-JW support groups were not helpful except that I learned that relationships can't be built upon negative experiences because you won't get healthy by hanging with unhealthy people. You can't just leave the religion. You have to leave the pathology. I found atheist groups to be much more helpful. They gave me the knowledge and understanding I needed to see through the dogma and let go of JW and the God delusion. Lloyd Evans is the only exJW who has been emotionally healthy for me to listen to.
Marie Vermette "God the narcissist" Yes. We imitate our gods. After leaving JW, my JW ex husband kept harrassing me through emails, sending me article after article about narcissism, trying to convince me I was a narcissist. I was struck by the similarities to God. God is the very definition of a malignant narcissist so it's no wonder that theists would also carry narcissistic traits. I had a lot of work to do to become "human" after leaving JW. Still do. I see people leaving JW as if their work ends there. The cult pathology, including polarized thinking and emotional abuse, needs to be addressed. All theist belief systems are tribal and divisive and create all types of psychological problems including the cognitive dissonance and confirmation bias that prevent us from seeing our mistakes.
Pedro Luis Sanchez I know you didn't ask me but I'll answer, anyway. It's because leaving JWs doesn't free your mind of the pathology of polarized thinking. Many leave but retain the pathology and form ex JW groups.
This group did the same thing to me and I had developed relationships with people who I thought were friends and they ended up turning a lot of the other members away from me. It was so horrible feeling like I had been disfellowshipped all over again, that I became suicidal and it was probably the worst time of my entire life. They spread horrible rumors and many just flat out stopped talking to me. This also happened around the time that I had a spiritual awakening and was more vocal about my spirituality and they were telling me I was crazy, had schizophrenia symptoms and all kinds of opinions that were denying my experience as a spiritual human being. I know another person who went through the same thing with this group as well. I know I am not alone. These people act just like JWs!!! And Lloyd is right in there with them!!
Gotta love those who comment, "I'm not JW, but....." and proceed to defend the religion. These are former JWs who left, or were kicked out, have forgotten the reality and details of the JW doctrines, but still believe it is The Truth--the one True Religion, the "closest to the Bible." It is a sad and painful position to be a JW apologist, a former member still indoctrinated --in a limbo of being neither an active member, nor awakened from their indoctrination. They still fear Armageddon and lash out at those they feel are doomed to die in God's Day of Wrath. They have none of the peace of those who have woken up from the cult control, nor any of the comfort of believing themselves safe from God's Judgment.
I keep the books 1984 and Animal Farm out in my house, hoping my husband will read them. He used to be an avid fiction reader. So far he has not picked them up. But they are always available in this house :-)
When I left the JWs in 2001, I found another decent exjw forum that helped me in spades my first few years out. When that forum later shape-shifted, and became less user-friendly (perhaps owner/moderator burnout - still so grateful for all they did), I eventually landed on the Recovery3 group. It's been great as well and my favorite thing has been that I can come and go as it suits my life, without too much hullaballoo. Actually my other fave thing has been that because my real name is out there on Facebook, I've crossed paths with a few people I'm related to but had never met (huge family) and also a few others I knew from past that have also left the JW regime. It's funny to me that they say Apostates are trying to make a following for themselves, yet, this video is pretty much the first I've heard in several years about the fellow (Ruben) that started this particular group. He hasn't made it about him. As far as I can tell, he's done his best to make it a supportive group. There will always be flame wars and frustrations between people whatever the group.
I think he makes an excellent point about JWs controlling themselves while In the "world". Mind forged manacles are the hardest ones to break free from. ~ Christopher Hitchens
'I had a guy at the cart say why can't you just ignore me and let me be after our discussion,which he agreed on many of the issues I raised?,my reply was how can I just gloss over the injustice and injury this corporation has caused?,I explained to him standing in a 'public' place and making a defense for the corporation invites an answer for the sake of 'truth' and justice!'
I am currently reading John's book, thought it was a bit pricey at first but it has ended up taking me on an immensely engrossing journey that I would give my right arm to have back if it was ever now lost to me.
I believe it's an open group, with a recommendation that you set up a fake account if you plan on joining, which isn't a bad idea for using Facebook in that way, period!
Ok, thanks for the quick response. Also was wondering if you have any future podcasts coming up? This may seem somewhat presumptuous, but I have a lot to say about leaving, going into higher education and dealing with mental health issues. Either way, be fun to hear a new one!
Oh damn! I remember Rueben growing up he was in my parents jw hall he was always a cool dude I remember playing sega with him ! Glad his doing good. Wish my family would be leave this cult ! Glad I never made the mistake of getting baptized
I use to think that I may not be strong in the Truth at least I am not a Apostate. So Glad with having Info and knowing their are others that see It is a Cult and is ruining my relationship with my Heavenly Father. They say they Change But they do not.
While not exactly on topic, but I have a question: How do you reply to the question/argument of "But there are other people smarter than you who believe it. Ex: list of names"? Obviously, this is a thought stopper reply, but I just don't know what to say to that.
Smith Smithson - I would reply that there are a billion Catholics in the world who are also smarter than me... But it doesnt make Catholicism the true religion does it. You can replace Catholicism with Islam, or Hinduism. Numbers and intellect mean nothing when it comes to Faith. Even the most academic person can be a victim to wishful thinking.
Some of the most intelligent people fall prey to cults. Just because your brain is hyjacked in one or more aspecs in someone's life, doesn't negate their intelligence or expertise in another.
Smith Smithson You could ask: "If people smarter than other people believe something does that make the belief true?" "How could we investigate if a belief is true?" "If smarter people believed in Allah would that make their belief true? Questions like these are used in Street Epistemology to figure out What people believe, Why they believe it and How they know it is true. You can find these kind of conversations on Anthony Magnabosco's channel on TH-cam.
"That may be true but there is a larger number of people that are smarter than both of us that don't believe it, does that make what they believe any more true? What if it's not our intelligence that's driving our decisions as what to believe? What if it's our emotions that drive us to believe certain things?"
Thank you John. Do you have information on Charles T. Russel being a MASON? About his gravestone? About his fascination for the pirámids of Egipt ? Thank you for your investigations .
I tried posting there for the first time and my post was declined due to not having an active Facebook account for over 2 years. I thought it was a shitty excuse.
When I went to that group I was having problems with a lot of things with the JW's but when I joined that group I actually went back to the Hall because I was actually mistreated in that group especially by the admins. Let's just say that I was "not" mentally stable during that time.... If you are having thoughts that the Witnesses are wrong then do your own research. These groups are not a place for you to go to TO HEAL. Seek help first and foremost.
I got disfellowshipped from his Facebook group....him and the admins are as bad as the J.W. cult....if you don't follow the party line you get the boot with no explanation....
Lloyd (John Cedars) can you please help Braverly Taylor TH-camr because she is helping people ex jwers. TH-cam has demonitised every video she has made. She works about 12 hours a day editing but as she won't get money from her videos she may have to get a full time job and not have anytime to continue on TH-cam. She really wants to stop the watchtower as condone child abuse as she was involved. Thank you
Dont think that intelectualism is the only and best way to look at religion or the world. Since I stated thinking for myself Ive reliased that Im pretty good at this. I have read "god delusion" and discovered plainly critical simple simple mistakes that intellectuals make. I am considering to make a youtube chanel to discuss these simple misunderstandings.
Ruben's group has rules that all are expected to abide by to avoid unpleasantness. Rather than Ruben's team randomly selecting you for ejection from the group, more likely this happened because you breached the posting guidelines, which all members are asked to read when joining.
“. . .“Lord, whom shall we go away to? . . .” (John 6:68) APOSTATES CANNOT GO TO JESUS!!! Why not? You have stopped worshiping Jehovah. Why is that important? Well, Jesus said: “NO MAN can come to me unless the Father, who sent me, draws him,. . .” (John 6:44) But, since you have rejected Jehovah, who's going to "draw" you?
So Jehovah draws Armageddon survivors to him? Seems to me he is drawing more from the Americas, Central/Southern Africa and Europe than from Asia, North Africa and the Middle East.
spellbound111, Really! Where'd they hijack Jehovah's name from? And, after you read Acts 15:14, tell me which united international group form a people for Jehovah's name? Remember, Lord, Redeemer, Savior, Almighty, God etc, are not names. If you choose the names Jesus or the title "Christian", then you would have to explain why they ontinue to fight and kill each other in the name of Christianity. Ready for that?
John Cedars, “. . .After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, OUT OF ALL NATIONS and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands.” (Revelation 7:9)
I'm glad 1984 came up in the interview. In the late 80s my grandmother and father pretty much forced me to get baptized, but my grandfather who was an elder didn't want me to get baptized. I don't think he ever really believed but was stuck due to the family dynamics. We couldn't fight my grandmother anymore so he ended up studying with me to get baptized... along with Watchtower readings he asked me to read 1984... I was only 19 at the time and I didn't realize what he was trying to tell me until years later. He saw it for what it was.. a few years later he told me how to get out of the organization. I am forever grateful.....
"You're not alone."
Very important to know.
but once Ruben and his admin chums boot you owt of his facebook group you feel more alone than ever before
alwaystheway lesson to take away: never rely on a group of people for your significance. it's nice to have support but that support should never turn into a crutch. it was true inside wt and remains true outside wt.
"Apostate" and "Activist" both start with "A", so does "alone, adrift, and abandoned". You guys are awesome ;)
Fantastic. So much goodness.
Ex-Jehovah's Witnesses Recovery Group 3 and your videos were instrumental to waking me up--and later for a year I had the privilege to be an admin. in the EX-JW Recovery Group 3. Now I run an FB group for women who have left cults and high-control groups / coercive & abusive relationships. Such an honor to help others as I have been helped. Many thanks and endless gratitude for all of Ruben's and your hard work, dedication, and talent.
Sidenote: who on earth can give a Thumbs-Down to such a positive video and message?
Abigail such a positive way to live your life! Helping others from high control groups and abusive relationships is so very needed . Massive Kudos to you!
Thank you!
Enjoy the interview, this fall I will have been out for 5 years, and it was only since January of this year that I really began researching and processing the experience. There are so many excellent resources, this journey has been amazing! I'm a member of the Facebook group and it has opened my eyes to an entire world that I had only seen through one perspective.
Thank you for carrying on with this channel and doing all the work you do!
Wow! I wish I had an FB group like yours when I decided to leave at the age of 19 back in 1988! Kudos to you and your group, Mr. Ortiz. Well produced video, btw.
Nah his group is as bad as the witnesses
alwaystheway what cry baby
No Tears here mate...just amusement
Hey, Ruben and John! Great video. Always great to see both of your faces!
Good community for JWs leaving. They need all the support they can get.
no it's not.....take it from me and many others they have no tolerance at all towards different view points
They have done so much good.
Who the witnesses or the facebook group that behaves like witnesses
Ruben makes a very good point about tolerance of differing opinions. What a shame that within the exjw community many have blocked and unfriended others because they were not mature enough to accept differing opinions on religion or politics. So much can be learned by the healthy exchange of ideas that comes with tolerating respectful disagreement and debate vs the old JW way of 1 thought fits all the demonizing or putting down of others.
I am blown by the quality of the sound on this. In a hotel room in Hoboken, no less. Great talk, great quality.
Great job Cedars and Rubin. Thanks for all your hard work and help.
John Cedars!
Excellent!!!
Nice meeting Ruben Ortiz throughout your videos!!!
Big Brother!!!!!!!!
Thank you for your very important work!
Great to see two of my favorite Apostates discussing what we all have in common.
It is great to see there is a Facebook site that supports people who either are leaving or have left the JW's, Kudos to Ruben!
Unfortunately some years ago when I joined a Facebook site for ex JW's it was just a flaming site people full of anger : \ and no support. Thank you Lloyd for reaching out to the the community raising awareness.
It's nice to see Ruben on this video after only knowing him as a facebook admin. Keep up the good work
konspiracykid *waves* hello :)
I got "disfellowshipped" by the ex-JW support group when I most needed help and support. Disfellowshipped by those complaining about being disfellowshipped, lol.
I can laugh now, but then, it was anything but laughable. I wasn't disfellowshipped. I came to the realization that I believed out of desire rather than evidence. Ex-JW support groups were not helpful except that I learned that relationships can't be built upon negative experiences because you won't get healthy by hanging with unhealthy people.
You can't just leave the religion. You have to leave the pathology. I found atheist groups to be much more helpful. They gave me the knowledge and understanding I needed to see through the dogma and let go of JW and the God delusion.
Lloyd Evans is the only exJW who has been emotionally healthy for me to listen to.
Marie Vermette
"God the narcissist"
Yes.
We imitate our gods. After leaving JW, my JW ex husband kept harrassing me through emails, sending me article after article about narcissism, trying to convince me I was a narcissist. I was struck by the similarities to God. God is the very definition of a malignant narcissist so it's no wonder that theists would also carry narcissistic traits.
I had a lot of work to do to become "human" after leaving JW. Still do. I see people leaving JW as if their work ends there. The cult pathology, including polarized thinking and emotional abuse, needs to be addressed.
All theist belief systems are tribal and divisive and create all types of psychological problems including the cognitive dissonance and confirmation bias that prevent us from seeing our mistakes.
I and many others have also been dfd by Rubens Caring Facebook Group
alwaystheway why?
Pedro Luis Sanchez I know you didn't ask me but I'll answer, anyway. It's because leaving JWs doesn't free your mind of the pathology of polarized thinking. Many leave but retain the pathology and form ex JW groups.
This group did the same thing to me and I had developed relationships with people who I thought were friends and they ended up turning a lot of the other members away from me. It was so horrible feeling like I had been disfellowshipped all over again, that I became suicidal and it was probably the worst time of my entire life. They spread horrible rumors and many just flat out stopped talking to me. This also happened around the time that I had a spiritual awakening and was more vocal about my spirituality and they were telling me I was crazy, had schizophrenia symptoms and all kinds of opinions that were denying my experience as a spiritual human being. I know another person who went through the same thing with this group as well. I know I am not alone. These people act just like JWs!!! And Lloyd is right in there with them!!
Gotta love those who comment, "I'm not JW, but....." and proceed to defend the religion.
These are former JWs who left, or were kicked out, have forgotten the reality and details of the JW doctrines, but still believe it is The Truth--the one True Religion, the "closest to the Bible."
It is a sad and painful position to be a JW apologist, a former member still indoctrinated --in a limbo of being neither an active member, nor awakened from their indoctrination. They still fear Armageddon and lash out at those they feel are doomed to die in God's Day of Wrath.
They have none of the peace of those who have woken up from the cult control, nor any of the comfort of believing themselves safe from God's Judgment.
Jehovah's Regime is just like Big Brother!
I keep the books 1984 and Animal Farm out in my house, hoping my husband will read them. He used to be an avid fiction reader. So far he has not picked them up. But they are always available in this house :-)
So is Rubens Group...even less tolerant than the witnesses.
When I left the JWs in 2001, I found another decent exjw forum that helped me in spades my first few years out.
When that forum later shape-shifted, and became less user-friendly (perhaps owner/moderator burnout - still so grateful for all they did), I eventually landed on the Recovery3 group.
It's been great as well and my favorite thing has been that I can come and go as it suits my life, without too much hullaballoo.
Actually my other fave thing has been that because my real name is out there on Facebook, I've crossed paths with a few people I'm related to but had never met (huge family) and also a few others I knew from past that have also left the JW regime.
It's funny to me that they say Apostates are trying to make a following for themselves, yet, this video is pretty much the first I've heard in several years about the fellow (Ruben) that started this particular group. He hasn't made it about him. As far as I can tell, he's done his best to make it a supportive group.
There will always be flame wars and frustrations between people whatever the group.
I think he makes an excellent point about JWs controlling themselves while In the "world". Mind forged manacles are the hardest ones to break free from. ~ Christopher Hitchens
I miss Hitch. :(
'I had a guy at the cart say why can't you just ignore me and let me be after our discussion,which he agreed on many of the issues I raised?,my reply was how can I just gloss over the injustice and injury this corporation has caused?,I explained to him standing in a 'public' place and making a defense for the corporation invites an answer for the sake of 'truth' and justice!'
Thank you both!
So much good in this video. :)
Just saying hello. Hope I will run into soon. Enjoy your videos. I'm a never was but still learn a bunch so keep it up
I am currently reading John's book, thought it was a bit pricey at first but it has ended up taking me on an immensely engrossing journey that I would give my right arm to have back if it was ever now lost to me.
Michael Bramall I bought the Kindle version; read it in a week. Even though I left 28 years ago, I realize I am still healing.
Awesome interview!!.. When is the movie or tv show coming out???..I am ready to see it!!.. Can anything speak with the producers of Scientology??
hi there, just a question? is it a closed group so that family members etc cannot see what you are doing?
I believe it's an open group, with a recommendation that you set up a fake account if you plan on joining, which isn't a bad idea for using Facebook in that way, period!
Ok, thanks for the quick response. Also was wondering if you have any future podcasts coming up? This may seem somewhat presumptuous, but I have a lot to say about leaving, going into higher education and dealing with mental health issues. Either way, be fun to hear a new one!
Thanks for another great informative video brothers.
Oh damn! I remember Rueben growing up he was in my parents jw hall he was always a cool dude I remember playing sega with him ! Glad his doing good. Wish my family would be leave this cult ! Glad I never made the mistake of getting baptized
I use to think that I may not be strong in the Truth at least I am not a Apostate. So Glad with having Info and knowing their are others that see It is a Cult and is ruining my relationship with my Heavenly Father. They say they Change But they do not.
While not exactly on topic, but I have a question: How do you reply to the question/argument of "But there are other people smarter than you who believe it. Ex: list of names"? Obviously, this is a thought stopper reply, but I just don't know what to say to that.
Smith Smithson - I would reply that there are a billion Catholics in the world who are also smarter than me... But it doesnt make Catholicism the true religion does it. You can replace Catholicism with Islam, or Hinduism. Numbers and intellect mean nothing when it comes to Faith. Even the most academic person can be a victim to wishful thinking.
Smith Smithson Understand what they're saying. Aren't they saying to trade your own judgment for someone else's? Why would you do that?
Some of the most intelligent people fall prey to cults. Just because your brain is hyjacked in one or more aspecs in someone's life, doesn't negate their intelligence or expertise in another.
Smith Smithson You could ask: "If people smarter than other people believe something does that make the belief true?"
"How could we investigate if a belief is true?"
"If smarter people believed in Allah would that make their belief true?
Questions like these are used in Street Epistemology to figure out What people believe, Why they believe it and How they know it is true.
You can find these kind of conversations on Anthony Magnabosco's channel on TH-cam.
"That may be true but there is a larger number of people that are smarter than both of us that don't believe it, does that make what they believe any more true? What if it's not our intelligence that's driving our decisions as what to believe? What if it's our emotions that drive us to believe certain things?"
I had a reluctant prostate for a bit. Thank God for coffee and a garden hose. =)
Thank you John.
Do you have information on Charles T. Russel being a MASON?
About his gravestone?
About his fascination for the pirámids of Egipt ?
Thank you for your investigations .
You could make a video in a gas station restroom and it would look and sound great
I tried posting there for the first time and my post was declined due to not having an active Facebook account for over 2 years. I thought it was a shitty excuse.
When I went to that group I was having problems with a lot of things with the JW's but when I joined that group I actually went back to the Hall because I was actually mistreated in that group especially by the admins. Let's just say that I was "not" mentally stable during that time....
If you are having thoughts that the Witnesses are wrong then do your own research. These groups are not a place for you to go to TO HEAL. Seek help first and foremost.
Him and his admins are as bad as the Elders
alwaystheway I've heard....
False Prophets will be done away with.
Come to Ithaca!!!
I got disfellowshipped from his Facebook group....him and the admins are as bad as the J.W. cult....if you don't follow the party line you get the boot with no explanation....
Lloyd (John Cedars) can you please help Braverly Taylor TH-camr because she is helping people ex jwers. TH-cam has demonitised every video she has made. She works about 12 hours a day editing but as she won't get money from her videos she may have to get a full time job and not have anytime to continue on TH-cam. She really wants to stop the watchtower as condone child abuse as she was involved. Thank you
Dont think that intelectualism is the only and best way to look at religion or the world. Since I stated thinking for myself Ive reliased that Im pretty good at this. I have read "god delusion" and discovered plainly critical simple simple mistakes that intellectuals make. I am considering to make a youtube chanel to discuss these simple misunderstandings.
He kicked me out for no reason
Ruben's group has rules that all are expected to abide by to avoid unpleasantness. Rather than Ruben's team randomly selecting you for ejection from the group, more likely this happened because you breached the posting guidelines, which all members are asked to read when joining.
“. . .“Lord, whom shall we go away to? . . .” (John 6:68)
APOSTATES CANNOT GO TO JESUS!!! Why not?
You have stopped worshiping Jehovah. Why is that important?
Well, Jesus said:
“NO MAN can come to me unless the Father, who sent me, draws him,. . .” (John 6:44)
But, since you have rejected Jehovah, who's going to "draw" you?
So Jehovah draws Armageddon survivors to him? Seems to me he is drawing more from the Americas, Central/Southern Africa and Europe than from Asia, North Africa and the Middle East.
Jehovah really hates those North Koreans, doesn't he. He's not drawing any of them. Poor chaps.
John Cedars more complacent and needy people
spellbound111,
Really!
Where'd they hijack Jehovah's name from?
And, after you read Acts 15:14, tell me which united international group form a people for Jehovah's name?
Remember, Lord, Redeemer, Savior, Almighty, God etc, are not names.
If you choose the names Jesus or the title "Christian", then you would have to explain why they ontinue to fight and kill each other in the name of Christianity.
Ready for that?
John Cedars,
“. . .After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, OUT OF ALL NATIONS and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands.” (Revelation 7:9)