Historical Paul: What Scholars Actually Know About Paul's Life, Beliefs, and Personality
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 พ.ย. 2022
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In this episode, Dr. James Tabor (retired Professor from the Department of Religious Studies at the University of North Carolina at Charlotte, where he taught Christian origins and ancient Judaism for 33 years) and Megan the facts and non-facts we know about the Apostle Paul:
~What are our sources of information about Paul?
~Misquoting (and misappropriation) of Paul
~Did Paul actually say women should be silent in church?
~Was Paul antisemitic?
~Did Paul meet Jesus in life?
~Paul's argument about circumcision
~What is "astral immortality?"
~How does Paul describe his vision of Jesus? How is that related to Paul's teaching on the resurrection of believers?
~How does Paul describe heaven?
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Looking forward to seeing all of this. Very sorry for your mother's passing Bart. May her memory be a blessing.
When I heard the description “ down in the muck” I sat up with surprised notice. This sounds like a strange story ,but I almost died several years ago and had a vivid out- body-experience when I was close to deaths hooked up to a respirator. organ failure. I wbecame aware I was in the real muck .. a sticky brown muck in a dark place like a deep darkly lit basement. There were other people with me trying to lift their arms or legs out of the muck, but to no avail as the muck was sticky and as one tried to pull a arm or leg free only to be pulled back down .
Sorry I messed that up trying to correct my grammar and it printed itself .. to to finish my story … i began to pray for myself and the other , I will call them shadow people. I couldn’t see faces, yet I knew they were people.. i was swept out of the mud room by a muddy river. I had to struggle to try and keep my head above water . I knew I was drowning . It turns out this was what was really happening to me in real life as my kidneys had stopped working and I my body was swollen with unprocessed fluid. As I struggled to keep my head up and keep from drowning I looked up and saw many very bright light beings that I knew were people, but I could not see their faces. I thought to myself, maybe one of them ( the bright light beings ) could help me. It was then that I recognized one of the light beings as my father only because he wore a bright white shining uniform that I recognized. I thought no way could I even expect him to jump in this brown muddy river and get that bright white suit dirty. It was then he jumped in and i woke up and opened my eyes to see nurses bending over me. It was later in my difficult recovery that my husband told me my father had died while I was i in this coma.
@@r0ky_M What do you mean by "mean"..?
I am often amazed that Christians take more doctrinal direction from Paul than from James. Marketing in action. The original, apostolic faith required daily acts of goodness to evidence the belief in Christ. Paul called this heresy, advancing the spurious idea that no mere mortal can be good. Even trying is blasphemy.
This turned out to be much more popular than actually having to live a good life. New converts merely had to declare a few simple words and then nothing more was required. This made the faith grow so rapidly and widely.
Laziness. The gift of Paul.
Jesus said, “NO ONE is good but God alone” sooo
@@ful107 there is absolutely no proof that James the brother of Jesus wrote anything. Plus the epistle labeled as James never claims to be his brother. 2 it was written in highly educated koine GREEK a language James would not have written or spoken.
Although I agree “faith without works is dead” we should not force our own beliefs on who the author was
that's not true, considering early Christianity and the Catholic Church that developed from it do not affirm at all that you are saved from faith alone but you need works
And if you *dare* challenge my authority on the matter, you’ll be damned. What a wonderfully convenient tool for power-craving lunatics.
I don't believe that st. Paul ever said it was blasphemy to try to act righteously. See Romans 2 where he even seems to link justification with the "doers of the law" rather than the hearers only.
Dr. Ehrman, I can honestly say that you are the professor I’ve learned the most from in my life, and I have never even had the pleasure of being in one of your courses. I’ve learned more from your online courses than all the professors I had when I got my bachelors degree in English. I just wanted to thank you for the great work you’ve done over the years and also offer my condolences for your loss. Loss is the most unfortunate reality of the human condition. Your family will be in my thoughts as you go through this difficult time.
Hey GoZags - it's Chris writing for Bart. If you've taken his courses, you probably know me. I love this comment and just wanted to gift you a free course of your choosing from our store. Shoot me an email at chris (at) doubtingthomas dot com and I'll hook you up. Sorry for the weird email. I don't want it to get picked up by web scrapers.
@@bartdehrmanWow nice gesture, I hope that the commenter sees your generous gift.
@@bartdehrman
The Bible Is the most famous Book in the World and it was written thousands of years before you and Bart Erhman was born.
In a legal hearing, the only valid and accepted testimony will be that of true eyewitnesses who saw, heard and spoke with the people, in the same places and time referred to in the trial.
Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are.
Bart Erhman was never in Palestine nor did he know Jesus Christ nor the apostles nor the Jews, Greeks and Romans of that time.
It is more than obvious who is telling the truth and who is lying.
Bart Erhman is a totally false witness!... and he is saying that the men who wrote that thousands of years ago is not correct? He Is a Big lier.
Bart Ehrman is a poor devil that sooner or later Will go to the burning Hell. Poor apostate!
😈👉🏻☠️🔥🔥🔥
John 21:24 "This is the disciple who is bearing witness about these things, and who has written these things, and we know that his testimony is true."
Book of Revelation 22:18-20
"For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus".
@@bartdehrman Mr Bart, you should convert to Islam and teach courses in Saudi Arabia against the Bible. So you would not have to be asking students for financial aid to survive. You would swim in money and be happy freely criticizing the Bible and the Christian faith. But it is possible that they end up cutting off your head if at any time it occurs to you to criticize the divine inspiration of the Qur'an.
@@bartdehrman @@bartdehrman
Mr. Bart, I was a Baptist for many years, but I am still a Christian and will continue to be until after I am dead.
I studied the Hebrew, Greek and Arabic languages and many other things.
Now I am more than Baptist.
Now I have power of the Holy Spirit in my life and God has given me gifts.
I am not famous like you but I help many people in different places in various ways. I don't ask for money. I have my own job.
Years ago I have known of you and your studies and your abandonment of Christianity and faith in the Bible.
I must say that his problem of incredulity with God is lack of experiences and real experiences of the power of the Holy Spirit in his life.
You allowed Satan to deceive you through Bruce Metzger and many others. I know who he was. I have several critical editions of that new testament in Greek and have studied their commentaries and analysis for years. Unlike you, I did not become an agnostic or an atheist. I am a person who is very sensitive to the needs of poor and sick people. But I am also a very prayerful person and I am very sensitive to hearing the voice of God.
You are an intellectual but you do not have nor have you ever seen a real miracle from God in your life because you stopped praying and never had a spiritual discipline.
I am going to tell you about my family experience: My mother had a serious incurable physical disease in her body 44 years ago. She was going to die in just 6 months in a hospital. She vomited and lost a lot of blood. She was very sick and she went into an unconscious state and she couldn't move or speak anymore.
She was Catholic. We were all Catholics and ignorant of the Bible and Jesus Christ.
But at that moment a man of God appeared in the hospital and said a healing prayer for my mother.
The prayer worked, though not immediately. It was a process of several weeks and months. Finally my mother fully recovered.
Today, after so many years, she is still alive and in excellent health.
In 1984 I was also sick and had a different but also incurable disease in my body. I went into my room alone and closed the door. I then said a simple prayer of faith and asked God for my healing in Jesus Name. I also received complete healing in my body and today I am healthy and happy.
Let me tell you that you need to know the Holy Spirit as a real person. He can also heal you of his health problem. He only asks God in faith and he will receive healing in his Name. You need to receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and that will give you true faith and power and the true presence of God will come to you and help you.
The Gospel is not reduced solely to a mere question of language and textual criticism.
The Gospel is not just empty words, but the Power of God.
That is what you do not have and he does not know. You need the real presence of the Spirit of God.
In my "Baptist Era" I had certain criticisms of God's justice, like you. But I never rebelled against God. On the contrary, I sought him out in prayer more and more. And I began to hear his voice inside very strongly and in a real way. I had important dreams where God (Jesus Christ himself) spoke to me. You can doubt this if you want. But it was real and very logical. He told me things about my life that were going to happen in the future and they finally did. There are a few other things to happen yet. But that gave me confidence in Him and my criticism of God disappeared. I wish I could help him get over his existential crisis and his bitterness and resentment against God. But I can't do that. You must do it. you can do it. Sincerely cry out to God like a child and you will truly know God. Ask him with humility that his Holy Spirit come to you and baptize you and you will be free from that disbelief. You will see things change in his life for the better, if you only believe God and seek him from the heart.
Be humble and look it up! He will embrace you like the prodigal son, he will forgive you, he will heal you, he will save you and he will throw a great party of reconciliation with and for you. What are you waiting for?
εὐφρανθῆναι δὲ καὶ χαρῆναι ἔδει, ὅτι ὁ ἀδελφός σου οὗτος νεκρὸς ἦν καὶ ἔζησεν, καὶ ἀπολωλὼς καὶ εὑρέθη.
Listening to this conversation, my impression is that the 1st schism in the Christian Church is between Paul and the other Apostles.
That's Tabor's view. I certainly think it can't be discounted.
What if Dr. Tabor is wrong in his exposition of Paul.If Jesus Christ truly revealed Himself to Paul.That is GOD 's supreme will,no man can question. Paul declaration that Jesus Christ is GOD & Savior of mankind proof his service to God Almighty. The mystery of the Church,all Jesus Christ believers,was not revealed in Old Testament, only in New Testament.
..,.
I think that is quite true, and I don't think most serious scholars would really refute that. Peter's church died out soon after the Jewish war, and Paul's church wrote the "history" we have today.
That is because Paul was a Roman con artist, he was NOT an apostle. He invented Christianity and neither knew nor followed Jesus which is why the church is always quoting him and ignoring Jesus who clearly taught and lived something entirely different than Paul's religion.
@@theclassysassymama7515 Paul was the biggest Con Artist in the ancient world. The thing is that the only people who believed Paul were the pagan Greeks. The Jewish followers of Jesus didnt follow paul. How could they forsake everything they learnt from Jesus and then follow Pauls teachings contradicting everything Jesus taught them. Any person could come along and say that they were seeing visions of Jesus and receiving revelation. And there were actually many more imposters like paul, but paul was successful in his deceit deceptive and manipulative agenda and targeted the gentiles who were ignorant gentiles.
I am a great fan of Bart's but it was fascinating to listen to James. A different style but equally magnetic. I can see why they are friends! We owe you both so much for such scholarship.
I think they should have all three of them together for a podcast.
100 percent!!! I would definitely say that James tabor is a bit more knowledgeable Than Bart on Paul
@@nathanfoust9104that would be amazing! Worth at least the price of a movie ticket
@@investigandolabiblia Both are amazing! I could listen to both of them all day. :)
@@nathanfoust9104 100 percent!! they should sell a private event where the public can go and ask them questions
Paul, was an opportunist who made a life for himself, from the life of another.
And thus the tradition of the christian church was founded.
Catholic Church.
If one does not take the opportunities life affords affords them, then that person is a fool.
A word of advice mate, stay far from such people.
Really?! .. the man was persecuted and killed by his faith... How in the world is that opportunistic?!
That is not a test of anything. He made made a business decision and built himself a life out of nothing. All the weird S--t comes from Paul, not Christ. Religion is full of con-artists. Just look at the Mormon religion. I studied comparative religions in college. People fall for the fear aspect of religion. A lot of religions are studied on psychology courses they are so bazaar under the title of influence. You cannot see this if you are in it. How many times have I heard "I don't read the bible, I just have faith". Where is that at? It is like you have your own personal faith that you call Christian, but it is not connected to anything that Christ ever said. That is called crazy.
Dr James Tabor is such a good storyteller. I could possibly hear him explaining about Paul and other biblical stuffs for hours. Literally
Very true!! And his works get complicated but if one goes slow there is so much golden nuggets
I only discovered Professor Ehrman's work around summertime last year. Before that, I'd never had a serious interest in the history of Christianity, or in religion generally. But his words hooked me and I watch these videos, and listen to his previous lectures on Audible, every week. Fascinating and eye-opening perspectives, with deep ideas clearly explained for a layman like me. Thanks so much for what you do, Bart!
I found his content a few years back and have followed him ever since.
I would like to suggest that you also watch videos of the Islamic preacher Ahmed Deedat. He was known as the Lion of Islam.
One interesting thing about Ahmed Deedat, he was a Muslim and yet he talked and preached about Christianity and the New Testament more than he preached the Quran.
Search his videos on TH-cam.
Paul the Apostle was a Hateful Monster!!! Who do you ignore ROMANS CHAPTER. !?
Chapter 1
Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
I'm only about halfway through this discussion between Megan and James Tabor, but I'm enjoying it immensely and learning so much. I love that Mr. Tabor is quite clear about what we can know about Paul and what we can only speculate. This is a man who has done rigorous scholarship yet has the humility to tell us what we don't know and perhaps can never know. Very refreshing.
By attacking Paul, Dr Tabor is also attacking Christianity.. Dr Tabor is a lackey of the Devil, Satan, on these last days. And they are many of them. Beware.
@@rambutan3788 Enjoy your delusions. I know they give you comfort, but they are delusions nonetheless.
@@johnprentice1527 Do not rely your fate on this so called modern scholars. They are like the Scribes and Pharisees in Jesus time. They took self pride as masters and scholars of the scriptures but Jesus branded them as serpents and vipers. Where did Dr Tabor base his teachings? From the works of scholars and other scholars. In contrast to Paul whose teachings he claimed were from Jesus Christ..Between Dr Tabor and St Paul, who are you going to believe? Your common sense will save you from destruction.
The more I have learned about Paul, the more I am persuaded he was a religious fanatic who was truly delusional. Claiming that his "revelations" superseded even the experience of the disciples that walked with Jesus is arrogance of the highest order. Like all cult leaders, his word is the only word.
Paul is very cult-ish at times (the love bombing, the “don’t trust anyone else but me” claims, the self-aggrandizement, and so on) isn’t he?
Paul's reputation gets worse and worse...
Once a Pharisee, always a Pharisee?
not if it was the truth. your words are arrogant of the highest order. you are pauls gods and know more?
So sorry to hear of your loss, Dr. Ehrman. Condolences to you and your family.
Thank you Dr Ehrman! I'm newer to your lectures but have been listening to a ton the last month or so. I really appreciate the uploads and will be getting your books. Much appreciated!
DR. James Tabor will now be on my reading list. This interview has caused me to rethink what little I know about Paul and his understanding of Christ's resurrection.
Great video and so sorry about your mom's passing, Dr. Ehrman. My condolences to you and your family and may she rest in peace. 😔
Oh, my at first I thought you said Dr. Ehrman passed away 😢 but I am sorry and my condolences go out to the Ehrman family
Bart coming through strong with the 1 hour content. This is literally why I got TH-cam Premium.
Use ad block
@@OhManTFE Doesn't work. With adblock, at least last time I checked, you still had to "wait for the ads (blank video window)" at least i did even with my OS level ad blocking and other tricks.
@@kencreten7308 Try ublock origin
@@OhManTFE I use that as well, but at some point, I'm OK with paying, if ads are removed. I will to pay for that. I understand that many web companies make their living via ads. Companies have to make a buck. If companies have a no ad option, I encourage that behavior by paying rather than bucking that particular part of the system.
@@kencreten7308 You must be an ASMR channel coz you're putting me to sleep!
Thank you for more great and thought provoking content as usual Professor Ehrman, I hope your family are well.
I love it when Megan chimes in with some cross-references to Messopotamia to give perspective. Very useful.
Fantastic conversation, love Dr. Tabor
I’m so glad that the two of you are friends! You’re both such inspirational scholars and teachers in your fields. I live in Chapel Hill and hope to see both of you live some day. And you and your family have my condolences.
lok'tar ogar
@@MrTrickatreat #ZugZug
Both are deceivers.
@@rambutan3788 Right, they are deceivers because they discuss the meaning of the text?
I was about to skip this one because it wasn't Dr. Ehrman but I was really happy that I continued to listen. High quality content.
I'm very sorry to hear that your mother has passed away. Stay strong! ❤
Even when I was a hard-core believer, I always thought Paul came off as a narcissistic a-hole.
Subscribed to Dr. James Tabor channel based on this. Look forward to listening!
I wish you all the best with your family issue, and thank you for posting another informative and engaging video.
So interesting to learn how Paul was effected by the philosophies of his time. How his views differ from other biblical resurrection/afterlife views. Enlightening lesson. Thank you.
AFFECTED.
I lovethis episode so many fascinating points made. Tabor is great
Thanks for what y'all are doing great talks I'm learning so much I have been searching for answers for
James Tabor's book Paul and Jesus and Robert Eisenman's books on the subject is very instructive.
its funny seeing Magen interact with James vs her interact with Bart. Her interactions with Bart are much more on eye-level and conversational while james is rather frontal, talking and magan hardly gets a word in. I like the more back-and-forth style of bart and magan.
Agreed. That's all on James for just continuing to talk over while she's trying to interject. I found it pretty off-putting.
Dr. Tabor is really good. Very good personality, and great speaker.
Fantastic compelling viewing. Thanks Bart. James was a wonderful speaker.
These podcasts are fantastic
Wow - that’s a very very very brave and clear discussion on a subject almost no one goes remotely near….wow
I have to admit, I've never found James Tabor that interesting but this is really great
Hey Bart, my thoughts and love are with you guys.
I certainly hope Bart comes around to this topic again. I'd love to hear Bart's viewpoint on Paul, who I believe is the most important Christian of all time.
Bart is one of the most favorite scholars .
Me too even though I don’t always agree with him especially when he talks about Hebrew Scriptures but there is always nuggets of scholarly wisdom all over the place
Bart, my sympathies to you and your family, I know the seperation of a loved one is most painful, be well always.
Insightful, reflective speaker - analyser of words and ideas, interestingly
Thank you for this. It was interesting information.
We got a substitute teacher today? i bet he makes us watch a video...
♥️ such an honor!
What a fascinating disclosure! Paul is well ahead with Jesus. God bless. Seen in London, UK.
There is one interesting detail/ similarity about the Paul’s Hebrew name “Saul” and story of King Saul in the Old Testament. King Saul persecuted David like Paul did with the early followers of Jesus (messiah). And the future Messiah is expected to come from this Davidic Line. This makes me think whether Paul chose or mentioned the name Saul refering the story of Kind Saul and David. I think this similarity would be impactful especially among the Jewish followers of Jesus and affirm the idea that Jesus was the Messiah from the house of David.
I don't think Paul ever mentioned the name Saul himself. I think it is only mentioned in Acts,written by "Luke". But it is an interresting analogy nontheless.
Saul from the tribe of Benjamin also suffered from a "troubling spirit".
It's just transition of the same name. Example: Josua = Jesus
It sounds from this like Paul was bi-polar.
I do suspect he suffered from mental illness (his conversion experience on the road to Damascus could easily be interpreted as a psychotic episode).
@@barrymoore4470 Yea I suppose with a purely materialist perspective there is no room for revelation as it will always be considered some form of psychosis or natural pattern recognition. But it does seem like from his personality characteristics and preponderance of psychotic episodes and mania as well as narcissism that he was bipolar or something similar
Your show Is wonderful
A great video. The discussion in Part 2 concerning Paul's conception of the afterlife is very similar to modern-day NDE descriptions (i.e., Dr's Mary Neal and Eben Alexander). Paul possibly had a NDE after being stoned in Deby and being left for dead outside the city gate. Which may explain his 'vision'.
or the mystical experience. Kenosis etc. very neoplatonic
Paul lied. Best explanation. It’s obvious he was a con man.
@@busterbiloxi3833 Near Death Experience. Bruce Greyson's videos on TH-cam are a good place to start researching. Beware - there is a lot of variety in people's recollections, which can be very subjective. Greyson is an academic researcher and MD.
@@r0ky_M People are revived after heart stoppage. “Brain death”? i. e . the cessation of brain activity, no one cones back from.
@@r0ky_M No, that is popular usage. In medicine, that is not a thing. They would instead characterize the type heart problem (v-tach, etc)
As a response to the point about ascent literature I would argue the sefer hekalot contains excerpts of reports of similar experiences that give the best context for Paul's ascent given a late second-temple background
Should I doubt Paul's words that he was called from he was in his mother's womb? wasn't he the the same person who was of the name Saul and was going about persecuting Christians?
Why do you doubt Aristotle’s testimony of the wonders worked by Pythagoras? There were many witnesses to his miraculous signs in his day.
Wow, talk about false equivalence.
I noticed that Paul's letters come after the Four Gospels when Paul's letters were before the Four Gospels and I think the reason for this was because Paul teaches that the law is no longer needed and we are now under Grace. But Jesus says the opposite but if you put Paul's letters last it seems like yes Jesus says this but then Jesus comes to Paul comes with his message that the law is no longer needed and just belief in the death and resurrection.
Paul's letters coming first and the Four Gospels coming afterwards would definitely change the perspective of some things.
? Simple: Paul was smarter than Jesus@damned uneducated fishermen(the 12). All of them did not know Bible's hermeneutics like their dumb teachers, rabbis at that time
Pauls teachings are the new covenant, not under laws, under righteousness of Love, not self righteousness to the Law.
Jesus' teachings were righteousness according to Love, if you study Pauls epistles you can have this understanding.
There's no Love in the Law, Jesus accomplished the new covenant, fulfilled the Law.
@@mariaandreaspashi1931 So Jesus didn't share this new covenant with his disciples? Because the disciples were still under the law. Why would Jesus only tell Paul this. I thought we were under grace after Jesus died but yet no one knows this until Paul came?
Paul came way after Jesus so why did Jesus wait so long to tell people they are under grace?
@@juannifer32 Jesus taught new covenant to all disciples, but they were still confused, and had misunderstanding of Jesus's purpose up until Jesus was crucified, I don't know what you mean about grace, but not earned means we cannot be righteous through self, anything to do with self expressions, trying to please God through self expressions isn't righteousness, we cannot earn it, but through Jesus, the new covenant righteousness of Love.
The disciples and Jewish sects were conditioned to please God through Laws and practices, Paul had task to teach Jews and pagans and transition from self righteousness of Law to righteousness of Love, that's why circumcision or not made no difference.
They measured sin with the Law.
But all unrighteousness is sin
1 John 5: 16, 17
They could not sin to the Law for righteousness of Love, for Jesus, because their conscience was stuck to Law, self righteousness.
And they lost purpose of Laws, God created the Law for our benefit, to preserve life, to save life.
But they thought Laws was for Gods benefit, and worshipped the Law instead of God.
@@juannifer32 I don't know if you agree with that explanation, but another way to understand Paul's teachings that it's not through our own works, and we cannot earn, meaning not through self expressions, anything to do with self.
Righteousness of Love isn't through self/ego.
I gave food to the hungry, because I love God, want to please God.
VS
I gave food to the hungry, because my heart feels pain for their suffering and want to see them well.
Jesus means to save, to rescue, meanings of Love.
Was waiting!
I am so sorry for your loss Bart Ehrman. May your Mom rest in peace. 😔❤️🙏
James could do a much better job at allowing Megan to interject. I know her voice was a little damaged but i have to believe he can see her trying to participate in the conversation and too often he just talks over her. But otherwise this was an enjoyable dialogue.
Hey it's Chris writing for Bart. I think he was having trouble hearing her. He's normally a very good "turn taker!" :)
@@bartdehrman that's reassuring
Many older men have trouble hearing softer, higher pitched voices. It's a physical fact. It's also a sign that maybe he should start looking into hearing aids. 😉
@@dianadeejarvis7074 again, he is watching Megan on the screen for the entirety of the interview. Surely he knows when her lips move it indicates she is speaking.
@@justmagicmostly we don't know how closely he's watching her lips, especially with her fabulous eyewear. It's harder to notice than you think. My comment is based on personal experience in conversations with older men. I've sometimes had to tap them on the arm, for example.
From my research, it is clear that only a small fragment of the teachings of Jesus made into the Bible, and not even that is 100 % accurate.
It is also clear that , following the crucifixion, several sects emerged, each with their own understanding of the teachings.
Paul's ideas eventually won out and became accepted doctrine, yet the contemporary accounts of the disciples Thomas, and Mary disagreed, and so were rejected by the new church.
Fortunately, we now have the full, comprehensive teachings of Jesus available, known as A Course In Miracles, which is essential reading for anyone who claims to be a Christian.
Yet, the church hierarchies are unlikely to admit that they have been mistaken for 2,000 years.
I suggest folk read it themselves, and make their own minds up.
Fantastic 👌🏻 thanks so much 😊
What I like about Paul is when he says you have to promise people ressurection, otherwise your religion won´t sell(First Corinthians ch 15).
One small detail about cloning: due to the complexities of epigenetics, you can get an exact copy of your favorite pet as far as DNA goes, but the copy might have lots of small differences from the original. Your new pet can donate organs to your old pet but be different enough in color and shape as to make you feel that you were conned.
The more I learn about genetics as a whole, the more I realize that genetics is, well.... messy, complex, kind of a spaghetti bowl, and not at all straightforward.
You forget that you could love the copy as much, which would you sacrifice for the other
@@mariaandreaspashi1931 There are big problems with making clones of pets or any other organism and then expecting to love the second organism as if it was the first one. Love it less, love it more, or whatever, but please do not love it or interact with it based on the idea that it is a copy.
In fact, I have an identical twin brother, so I have the closest thing to a clone that exists among humans. And we are not copies, we are two perfectly distinct persons who happen to be very similar in several respects. I forgot why this subject appeared in this video, but the one thing I can say is that even the idea of sacrificing one for the other is totally flawed.
@@andresvillarreal9271 I agree, that's the meaning in my comment, not that one would love the clone based on sameness, but on a living breathing being, as individual.
QUESTION: The Bible story of Paul’s “enlightenment” that instigated his conversion from an oppressor of those committed to the teaching of Jesus to a supporter while walking
with some other men has been a contentious issue of understanding for me. Paul is overtaken, my choice of a word to describe his “Eureka” moment.
Translation of tangible items from one language to another is often problematic as I have learned from personal experience. Translation across more than 2 languages also raises my concern. Translating feelings of emotion between several languages arguably even more difficult.
I know neither Aramaic, Ancient Greek or Latin. However Dr. Erhman is acquainted with these ancient languages or who has access to expert linguists who can offer informed thought about the English word description of Paul’s experience. My question is: Is the English word translation of his experience, a “vision” an “epiphany of thought” or possibly either option or something else?
This is heavy stuff.thanks for this post
Megan is a wonderful interviewer. It stands to reason that Paul would say tent. Perhaps tent maker is an appropriate metaphor.
Saul didn't see the messiah. He saw a light and heard a voice. Not that he would have recognized Him if he had seen Him.
And apparently his followers with him there saw the light but did not hear the voice. In a later account, they did not hear the light OR hear the sound. Very fishy.
@Vincent Verona prophet Bart Ehrman peace be upon him
@@hermithefrog629 the later account is the one found in acts
@@hermithefrog629who says Paul had any followers with him? Is there any independent proof that Paul was real not fictional
@@vincentverona7773paul avoids having to describe Jesus by having only seen a "light".
Paul screams con man. He says what only con men say.
It’s obvious.
I have Dr. Ehrman to thank for finding the right spiritual path for myself after spending my teen years in a cult.
Glad you got out. What cult?
Myself, I grew up in Bishop John Shelby Spong’s diocese in northern NJ which started me on my path that has lead to Dr. Ehrman and others.
Those specs are amazing, Megan
Really enjoyed this conversation. Apologists often point to the criteria of embarrassment as a reason to trust the reliability of the gospels. Why would they make themselves look bad if they want to convince people. Is it possible that these embarrassing bits are there to make paul seem like a stronger authority than the apostles?
Nietzsche says the same thing--essentially, that Paul invented Christianity.
All..lunatics, one- theological, the other -philosophical!
An eyewitness by definition MUST be seen with the eyes NOT a visionary mental experience…
Thank you
Bart gave me a lift when I needed more reasons to abandon faith. His ideas on the Paul of Acts vs the Paul of the letters hit home. I'd already dismissed virtually all conversations, particularly when folks are in the desert or in war or alone with others but the idea that whole speeches would have to be remembered word for word had never occurred to me. Thanks
The more I learn about Paul, the more I see him being a charismatic narcissistic personality. It makes more sense to me now how Christianity rolled out (and continues to) in our world.
This. He’s pulling the same lines of grandeur that cult leaders do 😢
From my personal experience, Paul has ruined good people, especially men. He turned them into a misogynist. And the worst part, is that these men, don't even have a clue. The blinder, is the belief that the 66 books are "god breathed".
I have an ebook out called "Cult of Apostle Paul" which I think is very accurate
The Messiah taught Kingdom Paul if he actually existed hijack the gospel or message, in Acts there are three different stories contradicts each other in his supposed road to Damascus conversion in the book of Acts, could have been a ploy to infiltrate the believers of the way
The Joseph Smith of early Christianity?
poor Megan can't get a word in edgewise 😅 Her voice being gone certainly wasn't helpful in that regard
It's still James fault for talking over her constantly
Very informative and interesting A+
I love that James asked Megan what she thinks at around the 6:50 mark. It’s just such a down-to-earth human moment. And especially a senior white male academic asking a younger female academic who is interviewing him what she thinks…it’s just so refreshing and nice to see that.
I never see that happening in the case of reversed gender/racial roles either, so I don’t see what’s so impressive… and honestly that’s such a low bar, it’s unfortunate that it’s still something that stands out at all. Even significant status or knowledge differences should never prevent people from eagerly sharing thoughts with each other.
Paul belongs in the Bible for the same reason that the snake was put into the garden! It is our choice to listen to Gods laws or the commentary of the snake. What a beautiful book that echos lessons and speaks to us in real time! ❤
@ryanrestivo4270 Guard the garden but don't pull up the tares. God can still make use of them and they will get burned up at the end of the harvest.
No one does a better job than Bernadette Roberts at explaining the difference between resusitation and resurrection.
Megan I hope You have recovered and feel well!
Agreed.Towards the end the poor girl looked like she just wanted it to be over and get back to her sick bed. Should have cut it short no matter how fascinating,
Misquoting Paul sounds like an awesome book
Peter Popoff claims to have spoken with Jesus, about me and what he wants me to do.
Apparently, if I make a small donation, Jesus will reward me many times over !
It's a pity Jesus didn't cut out the middle man and talk to me directly.
Prof @Bart D Ehrman could you do one episode about what is known of historical St. Peter? Is his tomb really located underneath the St Peter's Basilica in your opinion?
The glory is within all things; and he is saying that the glory within you is what rises up. Comparing it to a seed in a plant. When the shell cracks. The plant then becomes.
Paul never said that,
he is writing on behalf of Holy spirit.
he just wrote a letter
to his friends.
Then his followers made that simple letter into ''word of God'' !!!!
.
In the real world, how can Paul be ‘the first witness’ or ‘an eye witness account’ when he didn’t even know Jesus and was obviously mentally ill and deluded?
Update 2023: A team of leading psychiatrists, behavioral psychologists, neurologists and neuropsychiatrists from the Harvard Medical School published a research paper which unveiled a new diagnostic category of psychiatric disorders related to religious delusion and hyperreligiosity. They compared the thoughts and behaviours of the most important figures in the Bible (Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and PAUL) with patients affected by mental disorders related to the psychotic spectrum using different clusters of disorders and diagnostic criteria (DSM-IV-TR), and concluded that these Biblical figures "may have had psychotic symptoms that contributed inspiration for their revelations", such as schizophrenia, schizoaffective disorder, bipolar disorder, delusional disorder, delusions of grandeur, auditory-visual hallucinations, paranoia, Geschwind syndrome (especially PAUL) and abnormal experiences associated with temporal lobe epilepsy (TLE).
What I take from Dr. Tabor's comments in the upload is that Paul is the first writer who personally claimed to have had an encounter with Jesus, whether bodily or in vision (visionary in Paul's case), whereas the other earliest Christian writers were reporting on what others had described or remembered. I like you am of the opinion that Paul was probably psychologically disturbed, his likely delusions and beliefs too easily credited in an overly credulous age.
@@barrymoore4470 Yes indeed, likewise with Mohammed…..Psychologically disturbed, that is.
I always remember the quote…
"In every man sleeps a prophet, and when it wakes there is a little more evil in the world." - Emile M. Cioran
A team of leading psychiatrists, behavioral psychologists, neurologists and neuropsychiatrists from the Harvard Medical School published a research paper which unveiled a new diagnostic category of psychiatric disorders related to religious delusion and hyperreligiosity. They compared the thoughts and behaviours of the most important figures in the Bible (Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and Paul) with patients affected by mental disorders related to the psychotic spectrum using different clusters of disorders and diagnostic criteria (DSM-IV-TR), and concluded that these Biblical figures "may have had psychotic symptoms that contributed inspiration for their revelations", such as schizophrenia, schizoaffective disorder, bipolar disorder, delusional disorder, delusions of grandeur, auditory-visual hallucinations, paranoia, Geschwind syndrome (especially Paul) and abnormal experiences associated with temporal lobe epilepsy (TLE).
@@venenareligioest410 Thanks for the Cioran quote, that was new to me. Though apparently disturbed, Paul did seem sincere, something of which I'm not sure to believe of Muhammad, who I think might have been a charlatan, or quite possibly disturbed, or some combination thereof.
The significance of Paul - for me - seems to answer the question of whether an apocolyptic Rabbi named Jesus actually existed - For me, the claim that Paul new James and Peter - who claimed to know Jesus - is sufficient to suggest there was a historical Jesus (of course this says nothing further about the accuracy of the magical claims)
Paul was a fanatical Jewish Rabbi that became a fanatical Christian after having a seizure - He had a predisposition for fanaticism - and before the days of modern medicine - epilepsy was commonly called "St. Paul's affliction"
I'd like some information on whether Paul was in Jerusalem at the time of the supposed 'Passion' and why he doesn't say anything about it.
I don't think just in this instance, we can talk about Muhammad. Its pauls reputation that is put on the line. We need to examine him just as him and his alleged statements and actions. Dont be like those crappy republicans that everytime they are caught, they throw in their best shor, "But Hillarys emails"!
At 53:40 Dr. Tabor is asked a good question about Paul’s Jewish background, and belief in the resurrection in contrast to the rather heavenly or spiritualized Greek view that Dr. Tabor has of Paul.
I’m always surprised when intelligent people just skip right over how Paul uses/defines spiritual body in 1 Cor. 15:42, “What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable….It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.” Evidently, Paul understands spiritual as the equivalent of giving the quality of immortality to a resurrected mortal body in this cosmos.
It really is not more difficult than that. The same thing is indicated in 1 Peter 1:4.
The ponderings about where Jesus went upon his ascension has reasonable possibilities besides freezing on the moon. The third heaven was mentioned, but it is quit likely that heaven is not thought of as “up there” but more as a dimension that is on the other side of what we can see. So Jesus did not just go up, but crossed over into that side of reality called heaven in scripture. There really is no good reason to go outside of Hebrew culture to understand what Paul was saying. We just have to pay attention to what he actually says. He will often tell us what he means.
Anyway, it’s always interesting to listen. Thanks.
Don't forget the Pentacost story in Acts. Its every bit as important, IMO as the part about Paul.
In 1st Corinthians 11:4-5 Paul goes on at length about head coverings. He also strongly implies that it is OK for women to prophecy as long as their heads are covered. In the following chapters he writes about spiritual gifts but not a word about boys only until we get to 14:34-36. Here the text changes from Paul's usual active 1st person voice to weasel words about how women should be silent in church. I think this is a much later, orthodox, interpolation. Paul was an aggressive radical. I don't think he would have put up with this kind of ret-con rubbish.
Seems suspicious that a persecutor of Christ's followers would become one of their main proponents... almost as if, in order to destroy Jesus' teachings, Paul infiltrated the group & subverted it from the inside...
Oldest trick in the book. "I was a sinner but the love of Jeeeesus saved me!" Still works 2,000 years later.
Prof. Bart:..
Are (most all) of the pauline writings that we now have in the canonical New Testament, were harmonised and based on witting materials from Marcion Gospel??...
(Dr. Markus Vincent is pointing in this direction somehow)
Or we do have somehow the original manuscript from Paul?
Thank You very much...🙏
Please tell us we’re to begin in our study for understanding for the newly informed truth seekers???
35:28
"If you're agreeing with him and he doesn't sense opposition, he's tender, like a nurse with her child."
I've experienced people like that. Warm up until you say something wrong. Reminds me of Ted Bundy. Wants childlike, trusting, believing followers who accept his authority when he cries about his bruises from when he tripped on a rock on the road to damascus.
A true cult leader. It makes sense why he hates the people who actually knew Yeshua, they could contradict him and his "revelations."
"If an angel tells you that Paul is wrong, let that angel be damned."
It truly is telling. "Even if god directly tells you that I am lying, believe me. Trust me. I am all you need."
Thank you for uploading this. I had doubts about Paul due to the shifting beliefs and the changing details of his "conversion" story, but this provided the context I needed. It's not Christianity, it's more accurately Paulinism.
At the end of part one, when Dr. James describes Paul's attitude towards his followers vs. his opponents, Paul comes across as a textbook narcissistic cult leader.
Exactly what I thought. Ugh.
I disagree, he comes across as a turbulent bundel of emotions. (In his letters, that is.). Unless one prefers a more clinical view and suspects it to be all clever manipulation, I found him to be rather endearing, all together.
What brand of eyeglass frames is Bart Ehrman wearing?
Please balance the audio volume between the speakers and interviewer in this series. I can barely hear the eminent guest but then get blasted in my ears when the interviewer speaks. Just some constructive comment, loving the series, thank you.
Paul obviously couldn't have foreseen what later generations of Christians would do with his writings, but it is unfortunate that the products of his mediocre, unremarkable mind became so important in Western culture.
Some feel, that Paul decided to kill the Church from the inside, because he couldn't kill them all.
Most Christians won't be saved, because of Paul's word salad.
Paul had no idea his letters would become scripture two centuries later but given his arrogance I am almost certain he wouldn't object! smh...
@@longlakeshore What is also interesting, is, that the man who pushed Paul's writings into the Bible was Marcion.
He was considered to be a heretic and the sun of satan, but he was a huge Paul fan.
@@onejohn2.26 Did he include them in the first canon? Weird because he didn't like the OT God because he was cruel and therefore must have been different to the NT God.
@@joecurran2811 as far as I know Paul's writings have always been in the cannon
I don't agree with the god of the Old testament being cruel He made justice for justice was due when he had the Hebrews go in and destroy the people that were occupying the land those people were the Nehilim not fully human that was also the reason for the flood that and sin being rampant
That is also the reason that the world would be destroyed now because of ramp and sin and the nephilim will return as in the days of Noah
I am British and most of us feel that ‘Anglican’, Church of England’ is more of a social club than a branch of Christianity 🤣
It's not even that now, since they started selling off the church halls ...
@@Theslavedrivers Yes, it’s encouraging isn’t it! 🤭
“So the ideal candidate from the Church of England's point of view would be a cross between and socialite and a socialist?”
@@andrewsuryali8540 The vicar's wife is usually tasked with being the former ...
@@Theslavedrivers The ideal situation would be for ALL religions to admit that they plagiarised from the one that went *before, stop lying to children and to admit it’s all lies!
*Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Christianity, Islam - all lies, contradictions and errors.
I hope you're feeling well, Ms. Lewis?
What do you think of the theory that Paul and other mystics may have been epileptic? I recall reading about a visit that Aquinas made with his students to Bonaventura only to find him in a trance. "Let us leave one saint as he communes with another," Aquinas said. This sounds like Bonaventura could have been in the midst of an epileptic seizure. The unexplained episodes that Karen Armstrong had in her youth were interpreted as religious experiences, and she was directed to enter a convent. However, the nuns didn't know what to do with her and sent her to university. Later, she was diagnosed as epileptic.
Paul has gotta be the most interesting character.
Paul's epistles are the most interesting parts of the New Testament.
There is no such thing as "the most interesting parts of the New Testament", mostly because it implies that there are uninteresting parts.
@@theeternalsbeliever1779 I do not believe that ThisTrainIsLost maintained that any part of the New Testament can be characterized as "uninteresting". I mean, don't we all get excited when we hit the genealogies in Matthew and Luke? Does the typical reader read them with the intensity of the crucifixion passages or resurrection accounts? How many readers skim over Hebrews (Or skip it entirely)? How many people study intently Matthew 24 and Revelation and push the Pastoral letters to the backburner?
@@theeternalsbeliever1779 hmm now I do wonder what part is uninteresting, even the genealogies have a ton of debates on them
Condolences.
Did I hear right around 24.20 minutes? Did James Tabor actually say that Psuedo-Clement accused Paul of revelations from the Devil.
I have a hard time equating a "visionary experience" with an "eyewitness account." This bugged me while reading Tabor's wonderful book Paul and Jesus, and I'm still not buying that idea.
Anyway, thanks for the great podcast. 👍
Would it be logical that Christianity should be called Paulism. He worked hard at establishing and spreading his version of "Christianity". There also have been speculations about Paul's sexuality, that the demons he fought so hard to conquer was his attraction to other men.