There are nearly always indications, but you have to know what to look for and it's best to know what YOUR symptoms are. Chamber training gives you that opportunity in a safe environment so you recognize it when it matters. -------------------------------------------------- [Note: This comment is not focused on any particular "designated group" with regard to the TH-cam "hate speech" or "cyberbullying" policies. It simply reflects the author's opinion regarding a subject, which may or may not also pertain to an individual's actions demonstrated in the video. If any such individuals belong to any of the "designated groups", any commentary included is merely incidental to that grouping and such groups are not the focus of any comments. It's pathetic that this comment is necessary for the YouTube censors who are too stupid to figure it out otherwise.]
Or a major adrenaline hit when you were feeling a little fatigued and then some1 tells you youre about to pass out and die. Im not overruling the hypoxia but i dont think its 100%. Maybe like 60%. It wouldve been 70% but his speech was alerted at the mid point of the video but then it became more relaxed towards the end. Either it was because he didnt feel hypoxia at the lower altitudes and thus became relaxed or adrenaline ran out and he was just fatigued. Either way good for the controller to order the plane go descend because its better to order too many people to descend than too few hypoxic people. And the pilot admitted that the controller didnt order it out of thin air and it actually couldve had a basis too if not elsewhere then in the fatigue. But its most likely true that there is no way to differentiate between fatigue and hypoxia if youre feeling sluggish. Ive been fatigued and it almost felt like being drunk which is completely different than being hypoxic or fatigued but still feels same as fatigued. A lot of people here seem convinced it was hypoxia and to all of you i have to say it looks like a blatant case of overconfidence and making too many assumptions that ignore the existance of adrenaline in a near death experience.
@iarmycombo5659 Could be Hypoxia, I'm currently recovering from a bad case of pneumonia and I didn't know how bad I was until I got the Dr's. I had it for 11 days before going to dr. I worked and everything normally until the day I actually went to Dr's. I felt really gassed getting ready for work. So I just thought I needed some antibiotics and went to urgent care. When there they check my oxygen levels and they said hey not to alarm you but you got to go to hospital asap lol My levels were in the 70s. My blood pressure was was 180/90. I was walking, talking, driving just fine. Luckily, I'm a former D1 athlete, 31 yrs old who still works out everyday which maybe helped me. I finally went to ER and got hospitalized. They said I had the most energy for someone close to death cause my kidneys started messing up too. I was all kinds of messed up inside but outside I looked fine lol
@@BrettonFerguson hypoxia does not have to equal losing consciousness, if the brain is drained of enough oxygen then yeah you could be knocked out but before then you are dazzled and incoherent
@@cruisinguy6024not true for all controllers. Inflation has hit the industry hard. Controllers are severely underpaid for how important they are to the day to day economy in the US not to mention peoples livelihoods and lives altogether. Everyone else in the aviation industry has gotten a pay raise these last few years except controllers
@@coltonakins4820 there’s a LOT of people that are essential to the day to day economy that get paid a fraction of what controllers make. Their mean hourly pay is nearly $60/hr and the national average is $120k/year. They’re well compensated in my book especially given how much more they make compared to other professions that more directly deal with life and death such as paramedics who often work in grueling conditions yet can make little more than minimum wage.
Definitely not an expert but could well imagine that fatigue could heighten the effects hypoxia. Damned could call by the controller to pick that up so quickly, and great call by the pilot on freq to lend a hand by alluding to the cabin pressure. Have seen many video examples of hypoxia and communication becomes strained to say the least, almost talking to them as a child is the only way of getting through. Controller seemed to get on it straight away and as you say, reckon a definite life-saver in this situation.
@@SteveSalisbury The crucial thing to remember about hypoxia is that the person suffering from it is completely unaware of their predicament. When they train people in high altitude chambers they demonstrate this to them, then show then the video. Then they train them how to self idenitify and identify it in others before it gets too bad. The test by the way, that I seen, was to simply tell the candidate their start altitude and give them the total increase in feet as the chamber went up. Occasionally they would ask them for their actual altitude. Simple mental arithmetic stops functioning as hypoxia worsens, the candidate starts giving entirely incorrect answers. When asked if they are okay, they say they are fine. Eventually (military research), they pass out with a big smile.
Yeah I would almost say he was both. Fatigued which resulted in him making a mistake (not turning on oxygen or something) that resulted in hypoxia. Not sure on the particulars of his plane but being tired enough is literally just like being drunk in terms of your ability to react and make decisions.
The pilot is unlikely to remember that he was hypoxic because one of the symptoms is diminished perception and brain capacity. Those who have undergone high-altitude training in the pressure chamber understand what I am saying. Great save by the controller.
@@gregs2509 Not a fan though at his "I was looking at my fingernail" comment... That's pretty far in the symptoms list. If you get to the point where it's there, you're probably way past the no return point. My symptoms for me is finger tingling, and if I don't act, my second is sudden heat flush to the head.
The longer you are at altitude the lower your blood oxygen level goes. In the Air Force flying the HH60G Pave Hawk our manuals said no more than 1 hr above 10,000ft MSL, and less than 30 minutes at 12,500ft MSL. Only time I was that high in the sky was crossing mountain ranges in Afghanistan and let me tell you, you start sucking air after a few minutes wearing all that gear at altitude with no supplemental oxygen. Also, all of us had our certifications in the altitude chamber and we sounded EXACTLY like this guy when they had us go off oxygen when we were at FL250. You feel happy like being drunk, then you very quickly die as your blood oxygen saturation drops to lethal levels. You recover almost immediately by turning your oxygen to 100% and putting your mask back on (and immediately descending to thicker air).
Some people will argue with you when they are hypoxic. That exacerbates the problem. It is a blessing that he followed the order and descended. The denial later was also a classic recovery from hypoxia. Like a drunk stating he was always ok to drive. Great job controller!
I suspect that unless you've done altitude training it's hard to recognise the symptoms. It's not like you're thinking straight any more. I think we all like to assume we'd recognise the situation and trust the controller, but in reality plenty of us would argue.
No doubt on the altitude training being no guarantee. I took it in 1987. I thought I had it all together. Even waved off the assistance of oxygen. Until I was slapped upside the head and told to "Save Yourself". That's why I give the controller and the pilot kudos for acting properly.
@@JMMC1005 Most likely not how you would think. It scared me to find out how you react. I was told we react like we would if drunk. I didn't think that was true, because ugly girls were still ugly and I didn't feel like fighting. More like a 3 yr old trying to do things.
Well he just had an emergency declaration on him by the tower so if he was tired, drunk, hypoxic then getting declared an emergency will wake you up to follow some instructions
That's the crazy thing about our minds. They are not the master and commander. They are the spin doctor, the one that constructs a narrative to fit what "we believe" is going on. Not everyone gets to experience this, and honestly lucky for them, but as someone who spent maybe a decade of their life doing massive amounts of drugs, you can completely believe that you are behaving completely normally, only to be shown later that you were an incoherent, slurring mess. I'm sure this guy believed he sounded, and was just fine. I'm totally sure he remembers being totally ok. But, as you say, I bet he would be absolutely stunned to hear this audio.
@@heinzletzte.6385yeah. The way he was talking about fatigue in the end was like what happened earlier never happened. Not gonna blame him, cause that’s what lack of oxygen does, but scary.
@@rayafk8502 Pilots are terrified of hypoxia. One guy at a party said, "There are all sorts of mechanical and electronic redundancies for safety, but you only have one brain. If it quits working, you're plucked." Or something similar.
You don't go from slow and slurry and confused speech, to speaking snappy and clear and completely coherent in half minute just cause you somehow push through some fatigue. You do, however, have that experience when you go from being hypoxic and you return to normal oxygen levels. ATC man saved his life, very good catch. Extra points for the no nonsense attitude, "I believe YOU are hypoxic, I am declaring an emergency for YOU, now YOU do this!"
@@viniciusfontes8147 For sure! It was just a perfectly handled situation, if he had hesitated just a little bit the outcome would have been very different. You can't even ask someone if they're hypoxic, or if they might be hypoxic, because if you're not, you'll say no, but if you are, you won't realize it so you will also say no. Even this pilot, several minutes after getting back to normal oxygen levels, didn't want to acknowledge that he had been hypoxic earlier, or he genuinely didn't realize it. "Oh no, it's been a busy day, I was probably just fatigued" etc.. I just hope the pilot listens back to this ATC recording and accepts that he actually was hypoxic, and that this ATC saved his life. That pilot owes the ATC guy a case of whiskey. :)
Have you ever gotten up from your TV, or PC, to go to the kitchen and then forgotten why you went to the kitchen? That's what hypoxia is like. Your brain just "short circuits". He was first told to descend to FL230, leaned forward to do so, and then forgot what he was told to do. That's why it's important for an ATC to tell, repeatedly, a hypoxic pilot what to do. Unless told what to do the thoughts will just float and never quiet make much sense. This is where the ATC overrides that "thought-emptiness". Telling repeatedly saves lives. Because it can be as simple as the pilot leaning back, flying, being told to descend, leaning forward to do so, and then having forgotten what to do. Great catch by the ATC and a life saved! Also, I hope the FAA will recognise that this was just the human factor of trying to reason what happened, while unable to recognise the hypoxia.
This reminds me of Arthur Dent's hungover morning in the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy by Douglas Adams, before the discussion with Mr. Prosser: "He woke up blearily, got up, wandered blearily round his room, opened a window, saw a bulldozer, found his slippers, and stomped off to the bathroom to wash." Sometimes the details we gloss over aren't so little. I've personally fainted after rising out of a bath; a rapid transition from a high pressure environment. Felt something was off, thought I needed water, walked to the kitchen and next thing I knew I awoke in pain on the floor. Should I feel similar again (which I now associate with light-headed), I intend to sit down, not approach the nearest sharp object.
@@0LoneTech I have learned the signs of being close to faint and also loosing consciousness for a brief moment when I used to free dive down to 3m in swimming pool at a diving club practice. It would happen when I pressured myself myself to stay at the bottom longer, as long I was down there it was fine but when I started going to the surface the lower pressure could make me light headed and even loose consciousness for a moment, I learned to avoid pressuring me that far. But later it has saved me from falling when I got low blood pressure from medicines, when I feel light headed sit down immediately or else I would faint. And if to slow to do that I would faint when I sit down... First time it happened my mom was near and I sad to her I think I am going to faint, while I was sitting my ass down and that was the last I remember. Woke up of my mom holding me up in the chair so I would not fall out of it, was away maybe 30 seconds. And now the sick doctors refuses to change the medicine for 2 years even if I complain they have those kind of side effect... (and they before that changed the medicine every month for a year, like they was searching for the worst medicine to use...).
This comment should be at the top. Recovery from hypoxia is quick, but if an aircraft is level on autopilot up in the flight levels the pilot won't recover until after fuel exhaustion in the descent, and by then it's too late. Controllers, please pay close attention: when you recognize hypoxia *continue to order the descent* until you see it on the scope, then continue to follow up through the descent. It's like managing someone drunk, you have to keep reminding them. Below 10k they will recover. This controller did an exemplary job, and it looks like they were nominated for and won an Archie for this save.
You might want to see an ear nose and throat doctor and have your inner ear checked. I was going through similar and am going through inner ear rehab for vertigo. @@jeaniebird999
@@DBonezz As lots of other people have pointed out, that is *not* a typical behavior for simple fatigue. It *is,* however, exactly how somebody would likely behave when hypoxic (including the assertions that they "feel fine", the rapid recovery, and later attempt to rationalize it away, etc). Being tired probably didn't help, but he almost certainly *was* also hypoxic, and the controller correctly identified that and made the right call, and probably actually saved his life.
@foogod4237 wtf is wrong with you? Like fr. What is wrong? Did you hear the man confess to a felony? Then apologize for it. Are you kidding me rn. That is absolutely stupid. I respect your comment. But its absolutely retarded
@@DBonezz Yes an oxygen starved brain is not good at recognizing that it isnt working right. Notice how he sounded way clearer and snappier after taking oxygen and descending?
@mrcroob8563 Let me.make this very very very very clear. The man said and admitted he was flying sleepy. Other than this video have you followed up on this story to see what happened? I have. He wasn't charged. No investigation. Why? Because he was medically cleared and had no signs of anything.
Same. When his radio was toggled without hearing anything I was thinking that he was barely on the brink of going unconscious and just pressing the radio button without being able to speak. Glad it was just interference/microphone problem.
The difference between his comms when he was hypoxic vs when he descended was stunning. It sounds like a different person, like going from blowing a .20 on a BAC to .00 in a minute. You can even tell the pilot wasn’t sure what had happened, but at least he understood to immediately descend. Great job on the ATC.
I remember during flight school, we went into a hypoxic chamber to identify the early signs of hypoxia. It's surprisingly subtle-often just feeling like fatigue-and can easily lead to daydreaming until you're unconscious. Altitude Awareness and Hypoxia Training should be mandatory in every flight training program, as recognizing hypoxia's signs is crucial for pilot safety.
In their investigation, hypoxia was responsible for the Payne Stewart incident in 1999, which I still remember vividly. The crew experienced it in a manner that was so subtle and gradual that they didn't even notice until they had passed out. The symptoms include grogginess and slurred speech. In all fairness, the crew was improperly trained. They were taught to diagnose the problem first instead of putting on their oxygen masks.
@@fitmotheyap i believe it would be extremely hard to replicate those conditions, since it's not about getting no oxygen at all but getting low levels, while keeping co2 levels at normal. Your body only has one system to realize it`s not getting enough air (mind you it's a good system for most situations); it's to detect co2 concentration in blood. However, if the co2 concentration stays the same, but oxygen levels are low, your body will never trigger a strong reaction. When you don't breathe, co2 levels in your body build up, which WILL trigger that reaction and force you to breathe, which means you won't get to experience hypoxia
100% hypoxia effects everyone very differently, and some people don’t show signs of it until their O2 sats are well below safe limits. I have a good friend who just did a hypoxia lab in the Air Force, he wasn’t even showing signs of it with an O2 sat of 65%
I once became hypoxic after being at 11000 for 4 hours and my supplemental O2 ran out by accident. I was able to recognize the symptoms and request descent. My O2 sat dropped to 83 on my Garmin watch and I started to get a headache. Every pilot can exhibit hypoxia symptoms a little differently though. I think I speak for the majority of pilots when I say thank you to this controller, and all controllers, who care about us and aren't afraid to speak up when something isn't right. I'm talking to you Indy and Atlanta centers... you folks rock, and you've helped me out of a pickle on more than one occasion.
That's wild how quickly that changed from nonsense slurred babble to frustrated but clear communication. Much better to have this recording than one tracking a ghost plane to a crash.
I'm not a pilot... but I know hypoxic when I hear it. That controller 100% saved that pilots life and the pilot never even realized how far gone he really was.
You're not a doctor either. There are many things that can cause this speech abnormality. Stroke, drinking, medicine use, being extreme tired and I am sure a few other things.
@@computerjantje I'm a pilot and a critical care paramedic, you are correct that many things can cause slurred, slow and confused speech like he was exhibiting. However, those things generally don't resolve themselves solely by the application of supplemental oxygen and a return to a more oxygen rich environment. Its entirely possible he had a TIA or stroke that suddenly cleared, but his immediate return to fully coherent and normal speech would raise doubt on that diagnosis. In medicine we use the saying, "If you hear hoofbeats, its probably a horse, not a zebra", a variant of occams razor if you will. High altitude + symptoms of hypoxia is likely to be caused by hypoxia, not something more exotic.
Totally agree with you - I’m ex military with flight experience and now work in a medical facility and that speech was slurred which improved dramatically after descending. 👍 ATC intervention prevented that situation from escalating
@@Nervegas "If you hear hoof beats, its probably a horse, not a zebra" I like that.. for multiple reasons. 😄 Yeah it was like night and day with the altitude change. 👍
@@bunkerrocketworks3190 @computerjantje I wasn't sure if the pilot didn't realize what happened or if perhaps he didn't want admit it to ATC for some reason. Can hypoxia make it so you don't even know it's happening or happened? Curious. Ty both.
he was coming back from a funeral and this controller prevented a second. Great job ZID, you caught that EARLY. I think we can all consider the archie league won for this year. I'm proud of you guys
Can't believe he actually told the controller on a recorded channel that he was fatigued yet insisted on flying. Now, he was perhaps trying to rationalize what clearly appeared to be hypoxic symptoms but nevertheless, he should not have offered what appears to be an even worse reason for his performance at altitude.
He seemed to be improving so I’ll go with hypoxia as most likely. He seemed totally incoherent at first. I agree it’s strange to put it down to fatigue as I would have thought taking off knowing you are too fatigues is more likely to get you in trouble with the authorities than hypoxia.
The way that dude was slurring, absolutely no shot he wasn't suffering from hypoxia. And if fatigue was a factor, he needs to be honest with himself during his preflight and be willing to say that he's not fit to fly. IMSAFE should be the very first checklist item during your preflight.
IMSAFE is one of those first-day-of-flight school things everyone learns (and some forget), and pilots are notorious at convincing themselves that they're fine. I'm glad he's ok.
@@susannafrench Absolutely. Every BFR and IPC I've ever had since I started flying the CFI has quizzed me on IMSAFE. We have to be honest with ourselves and not be too proud to admit when we're not up to it. I've cancelled flights before because I'm just feeling "off" for one reason or another. It's better to be on the ground wishing you were in the air than the other way around.
The "I'm fatigued" response, I think, is a shock response -- trying to convince yourself that everything's fine. That shouldn't be taken at face value in the moment.
The longer you are at altitude the lower your blood oxygen level goes. In the Air Force flying the HH60G Pave Hawk our manuals said no more than 1 hr above 10,000ft MSL, and less than 30 minutes at 12,500ft MSL. Only time I was that high in the sky was crossing mountain ranges in Afghanistan and let me tell you, you start sucking air after a few minutes wearing all that gear at altitude with no supplemental oxygen. Also, all of us had our certifications in the altitude chamber and we sounded EXACTLY like this guy when they had us go off oxygen when we were at FL250. You feel happy like being drunk, then you very quickly die as your blood oxygen saturation drops to lethal levels. You recover almost immediately by turning your oxygen to 100% and putting your mask back on (and immediately descending to thicker air).
Fatigue probably was a factor… a factor which led to making the poor decision to fly, in turn not setting the pressurisation correctly (or at all), leading to the absolute classic example of hypoxia. ‘On supplemental oxygen since you told me to descend’ and magically feel okay now! No, hypoxia. The garbled transmissions in the middle is most likely the s**tty mike in the O2 mask (he seems to have donned), or not flicking the mike selector from headset to mask. Tx all okay after he gets below 10k and goes back on his headset. I hope this is fully investigated by the authorities and the pilot if honest with himself and then investigators, so that hopefully others can learn from this. Great catch by the controller! This should be another training video of ATCs all over.
I'm not informed on either topic of hypoxia or the fatigue effects. But saw your comment and had a question since you seem more knowledgeable in both areas than me personally at the moment. I did have to Google fl270 to know what altitudes they were talking ☠️. But would they be able to make it that high in altitude without cabin pressurization? or incorrectly doing it considering stated they only turned on supplemental oxygen for the descent, implying it was off up until that point?
Great catch by that Controller, and good on that pilot for not questioning ATC and following the directions. ATC saved that mans life and hopefully he added a hard-stamped mental checklist item to his flying.
Fantastic ATC and probably averted a disaster and saved the pilots life. Shoutout also to the American 2334 pilot chipping in and helping out with the cabin altitude indicator suggestion.
Were these pax women by any chance? I've heard women are more susceptible to hypoxia than men. I've also heard that men are usually fine up to 10K, while women are at a greater chance of hypoxia starting at 8K.
@@viniciusfontes8147 One man, one woman - both in their 30s, in average shape, not overweight, or with health issues of which I was aware. I was fine - Suspect due to a 2 mile jog once or twice weekly. Never had a VO2 Max test, or similar - so, scientifically, not really sure why I was fine.
I had it once at 10000 back when i was a smoker. Flying alone, stopped caring, became a passenger on my own aircraft enjoying the view, thinking about anything but aviating, and not monitoring the aircraft. The so called "euphoria"...weird feeling, then the voice in my head kicked me to remember training. Descended and boom...clarity hits so quick.
How long does that take to happen? I never really questioned it skydiving but we always go up to 14000 at sea level. Not for very long though. I think the pilots just decend right after we are clear though. I definitely never felt anything.
@@LoneStarStinger Unfortunately, there is no set "x" min "y" sec for hypoxia to establish. Military trains crew members to recognize their own symptom(s). If the symptom(s) appear, then the crew member needs to take corrective action like going on 100% oxygen etc...
Good job on the controller for noticing and reacting quickly. Good job on the American pilot for offering helpful input but staying off the radio the rest of the time.
It did seem like that statement from the other pilot as what started to turn things around. The hypoxia pilot made some kind of change after hearing that, maybe by putting on his oxygen. Maybe that direction was some kind of code or signal from one pilot to another? I think the American Pilot said exactly the right thing. Perfect timing too.
Yeah he should have definitely left all that out. On the Kalitta hypoxia incident those pilots snapped back to normal immediately at the lower altitude, this guy never really did.
To be fair if he was hypoxic, he's likely going to say stuff like that (i.e., making up alternatives to hypoxia). Not saying he won't be in trouble with FAA anyway, but it at least makes it more difficult to nail someone for what they say when their brain isn't working right due to something else I would think...
If that pilot went up with fatigue that bad, he shouldn't be flying. That was hypoxia and the hypoxia still had him not thinking right to suggest he was too tired to fly, while flying.
The longer you are at altitude the lower your blood oxygen level goes. In the Air Force flying the HH60G Pave Hawk our manuals said no more than 1 hr above 10,000ft MSL, and less than 30 minutes at 12,500ft MSL. Only time I was that high in the sky was crossing mountain ranges in Afghanistan and let me tell you, you start sucking air after a few minutes wearing all that gear at altitude with no supplemental oxygen. Also, all of us had our certifications in the altitude chamber and we sounded EXACTLY like this guy when they had us go off oxygen when we were at FL250. You feel happy like being drunk, then you very quickly die as your blood oxygen saturation drops to lethal levels. You recover almost immediately by turning your oxygen to 100% and putting your mask back on (and immediately descending to thicker air).
1:10 that extra time at FL270 was definitely taking its toll. The descent was not a moment too soon, and all the classic signs and symptoms of hypoxia - excellent training on this is clearly being done with trainee ATCOs (hopefully) worldwide.
That ATC saved that guy's life... he was 1000% hypoxic and thank god he listened and put on his oxygen - instantly changed him. Hope the pilot ended up hearing this later to realize how much danger he was in.
i absolutely love how the controller isn't in the least accusatory, just concerned. And honestly props to the pilot for not immediately taking it as an insult, since that's apparently something not every pilot is capable of..
Working all weekend, probably outside, early morning trip to a funeral, "kinda sluggish". Hey, let's get in an airplane and fly. SMH. it's amazing this didn't have a tragic ending.
The longer you are at altitude the lower your blood oxygen level goes. In the Air Force flying the HH60G Pave Hawk our manuals said no more than 1 hr above 10,000ft MSL, and less than 30 minutes at 12,500ft MSL. Only time I was that high in the sky was crossing mountain ranges in Afghanistan and let me tell you, you start sucking air after a few minutes wearing all that gear at altitude with no supplemental oxygen. Also, all of us had our certifications in the altitude chamber and we sounded EXACTLY like this guy when they had us go off oxygen when we were at FL250. You feel happy like being drunk, then you very quickly die as your blood oxygen saturation drops to lethal levels. You recover almost immediately by turning your oxygen to 100% and putting your mask back on (and immediately descending to thicker air).
Fatigue is exacerbated by high altitude. Even if his pressurization was working normally. If he's used to sea level, but at 8,000ft cabin altitude, he's going to be extra tired. I've had something similar happen, albiet not as severe as his case. Got downstairs to the crew van, felt fine, just a little tired, did the walk around and preflight work, felt fine, just a little tired, took off, felt fine just a little tired, but when our cabin altitude starting climbing above the 7,000 mark I started making a few dumb mistakes that I know I wouldn't make normally. Forgot to switch to 29.92 above FL180, missed a couple radio calls, almost forgot to get the ATIS, etc. I could tell I was way more fatigued than I was on the ground. Immediately I double checked our pressurization to make sure it's working, and let the other pilot know how I was doing and asked him how he was feeling. As soon as we descended I went back to feeling okay. Thankfully that was my only leg that day, but if I had more flights scheduled that day I would've definetly called fatigue. In hindsight, It may have been smart for me to put my mask on just for the extra boost. Glad I had that experience so I could learn from it. Descending and getting more oxygen would certainly give him a boost, even if he wasn't full on hypoxic. Great actions by this controller.
Definitely hypoxic before using oxygen. I work in a hospital and hear hypoxic patients all the time. Great catch from the controller. The Pilot should listen to how he sounded on this recording and see how bad he was to understand the difference between fatigue and hypoxia.
Hypoxia is absolutely terrifying. If you're not specifically trained for it, you have no idea its happening, there's no "too late" to know about. You're there until you're not, and your brain makes you black out while still being "conscious". You still move, but not in an autopilot way, more of a toddler way. You're moving and "awake", but everything you do is senseless. My favourite example of what hypoxia can do is in a SmarterEveryDay video. He purposely gives himself hypoxia in a very controlled environment, and it's absolutely terrifying to see him go from completely normal, to slightly uncoordinated and a bit nonsensical, to fully unresponsive while "conscious", unable to do one of those shape-hole baby toys, and laughing for no reason. He was still awake before he was oxygenated and still hypoxic, but he was not there. Then (assuming there was no cut, which there didn't seem to be), the second he got back on oxygen, he was completely back to normal, like nothing happened. You can see the point where the pilot is just gone in his final transmission right before the ATC declared the emergency first. Right at 1:00, he starts talking, then just drifts off. It's impressive how quickly the ATC realized what happened. What's terrifying is that there's nothing you can do but just hope the plane lowers to an altitude where there's enough oxygen.
Hi there - I was the pilot flying that day. I swear to the heavens that I had been working hard all day and had some gunk under my fingernails. I really just had been a little exhausted and it caused me to slur my speech. Funny thing, when I work hard and my fingernails are not clean, I slur the shit out of my words.
The ATC system is by and large first rate. My experience with the system is controllers as skilled and professional as this helpful ATC agent. Well done.❤
I’ve been hypoxic. In altitude chamber training. I felt goooood and didn’t care about anything. They had us do simple math problems, and my arithmetic and handwriting got worse and worse as I felt better and better. It’s no joke
It's great that the pilot's ego (as in personality) was one that allowed him to accept the control center's judgment that he was hypoxic. When he's hypoxic, like a drunk person, they default to their base desires.
Superb actions by ATC in noticing the issue, and also by the pilot, responding quickly and showing gratitude for the ATC's concern. This might make a handy insert into a human factors training programme.
If it was fatigue and not hypoxia, I’d imagine he would’ve perked up to decline the emergency declaration on his behalf. Definitely sounded like his condition improved with the supplemental oxygen and descent. Good job ATC.
If you have hypoxia you don’t know it, and its extremely dangerous. so of course they are not trained to refuse help, you should accept it just in case
3:23 "I feel totally fine and coherent" . . . which a person either untrained or not retaining their training about hypoxia would say, in the first stages of hypoxia.
@@amw_cats Yes, if they were around or below 10,000 feet, not slurring, and following ATC instructions and doing readbacks normally. Which is not in this video. Did you watch the video? Don't be an ass.
@@danniem The slurring and incoherency is evidence, not what you quoted. “I feel fine and coherent”cannot be used as evidence either way. It is a completely neutral statement, as a person suffering from hypoxia is likely to say it as well as someone not suffering from hypoxia. It’s like when someone goes “Oh, you say you are innocent and did not commit this crime? Well that is EXACTY what a guilt person would say! 🫵 Gotcha!” Both guilty and innocent say they are innocent, so it’s dumb to try and turn a neutral statement against someone.
This is where “personal minimums” comes into play, already knowing the fact that your fatigued from a long weekend at that point should’ve said postpone this flight go get some rest and try again…..Nothing else is worth your life and others
Sharp SHARP ATC!!! What a professional!! The pilot ?? Flying knowing he was fatigued .. busy weekend physically tired out.. what could possibly go wrong? Flying his friend’s to their father’s funeral?? Could been a triple or quadrupled ceremony!!!!
The slurring in his speech was significant, but I can also see how you might second-guess yourself and think that might be just how the pilot talks. The difference in his speech once he descended is just crazy. Chilling. ATC potentially saved multiple lives.
The controller needs a raise, he may well have saved the lives of everyone on that plane. Even more impressive is how quickly he determined that. Outstanding work by ATC.
I was kinda wondering and hearing the same thing, but I don't know how hypoxia and oxygen affects each other over time, especially after being hypoxic for a while. I think you are on to something.
@@海伯庵 I don’t think you understand what I was saying. He immediately recovered when he got oxygen and sounded normal. However, as soon as he took his supplemental oxygen off, he started sounding a little off, even though he was below 8000 feet.
I don't think it was hypoxia. I think alcohol was involved, he got a jolt of fear and so he was trying to sound coherent and sober, but could only maintain that for so long.
The longer you are at altitude the lower your blood oxygen level goes. In the Air Force flying the HH60G Pave Hawk our manuals said no more than 1 hr above 10,000ft MSL, and less than 30 minutes at 12,500ft MSL. Only time I was that high in the sky was crossing mountain ranges in Afghanistan and let me tell you, you start sucking air after a few minutes wearing all that gear at altitude with no supplemental oxygen. Also, all of us had our certifications in the altitude chamber and we sounded EXACTLY like this guy when they had us go off oxygen when we were at FL250. You feel happy like being drunk, then you very quickly die as your blood oxygen saturation drops to lethal levels. You recover almost immediately by turning your oxygen to 100% and putting your mask back on (and immediately descending to thicker air).
![PASSENGER LANDS PLANE After Pilot Incapacitation [ATC audio]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/9Jy8jpfyiek/mqdefault.jpg)
![PASSENGER LANDS PLANE After Pilot Incapacitation [ATC audio]](/img/tr.png)
“Hi you are dying, please descend”
I mean ya essentially that’s exactly what was happing to that guy, and he may have been saved just in time
"but that's the opposite of where I wanna spend my afterlife"
😂
We’re all dying a little bit each day.
@@jollyg83 and living a little bit each day
The worst part about hypoxia is that you feel coherent and fine... Until you pass out.
Not me, I got hypoxic as a passenger at 14000 and I felt strange
There are nearly always indications, but you have to know what to look for and it's best to know what YOUR symptoms are. Chamber training gives you that opportunity in a safe environment so you recognize it when it matters.
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[Note: This comment is not focused on any particular "designated group" with regard to the TH-cam "hate speech" or "cyberbullying" policies. It simply reflects the author's opinion regarding a subject, which may or may not also pertain to an individual's actions demonstrated in the video. If any such individuals belong to any of the "designated groups", any commentary included is merely incidental to that grouping and such groups are not the focus of any comments. It's pathetic that this comment is necessary for the YouTube censors who are too stupid to figure it out otherwise.]
@@Brian-bc8ds I learned my hypoxia symptoms, but I do not have language to describe it.
Better than coherent and fine. I feel amazing. Couldn’t be better. Best day ever. 😅
Me tapping on my fingernails while waiting to jump
That was 100% hypoxia. The dramatic change in his speech after he started on supplemental oxygen is proof of that.
Or a major adrenaline hit when you were feeling a little fatigued and then some1 tells you youre about to pass out and die.
Im not overruling the hypoxia but i dont think its 100%. Maybe like 60%. It wouldve been 70% but his speech was alerted at the mid point of the video but then it became more relaxed towards the end. Either it was because he didnt feel hypoxia at the lower altitudes and thus became relaxed or adrenaline ran out and he was just fatigued.
Either way good for the controller to order the plane go descend because its better to order too many people to descend than too few hypoxic people. And the pilot admitted that the controller didnt order it out of thin air and it actually couldve had a basis too if not elsewhere then in the fatigue. But its most likely true that there is no way to differentiate between fatigue and hypoxia if youre feeling sluggish. Ive been fatigued and it almost felt like being drunk which is completely different than being hypoxic or fatigued but still feels same as fatigued.
A lot of people here seem convinced it was hypoxia and to all of you i have to say it looks like a blatant case of overconfidence and making too many assumptions that ignore the existance of adrenaline in a near death experience.
or drunk as fuck and after making an effort got shit to gether.
@iarmycombo5659 Could be Hypoxia, I'm currently recovering from a bad case of pneumonia and I didn't know how bad I was until I got the Dr's.
I had it for 11 days before going to dr. I worked and everything normally until the day I actually went to Dr's. I felt really gassed getting ready for work. So I just thought I needed some antibiotics and went to urgent care.
When there they check my oxygen levels and they said hey not to alarm you but you got to go to hospital asap lol My levels were in the 70s. My blood pressure was was 180/90.
I was walking, talking, driving just fine. Luckily, I'm a former D1 athlete, 31 yrs old who still works out everyday which maybe helped me. I finally went to ER and got hospitalized. They said I had the most energy for someone close to death cause my kidneys started messing up too. I was all kinds of messed up inside but outside I looked fine lol
But he doesn't remember losing consciousness, so it must not have happened. 😁
@@BrettonFerguson hypoxia does not have to equal losing consciousness, if the brain is drained of enough oxygen then yeah you could be knocked out but before then you are dazzled and incoherent
When that pilot hears this recording he will know that ATC saved his life.
dude was drunk, he snapped into sharp mode when he realized the conversations were serious
@@Pilvenugayou can't know that.
@@Pilvenuga Highly doubt it
@@Pilvenuga My understanding is that hypoxia can sound similar to intoxication
@@Pilvenuga he was hypoxic and cleared up because he gained more oxygen as he was descending
Give that controller a raise
They already make bank that fairly represents their duties and expectations
Yes, Karen.
@@cruisinguy6024
@@cruisinguy6024not true for all controllers. Inflation has hit the industry hard. Controllers are severely underpaid for how important they are to the day to day economy in the US not to mention peoples livelihoods and lives altogether. Everyone else in the aviation industry has gotten a pay raise these last few years except controllers
@@coltonakins4820 there’s a LOT of people that are essential to the day to day economy that get paid a fraction of what controllers make.
Their mean hourly pay is nearly $60/hr and the national average is $120k/year. They’re well compensated in my book especially given how much more they make compared to other professions that more directly deal with life and death such as paramedics who often work in grueling conditions yet can make little more than minimum wage.
He probably had a complaint filed against him instead. lol.
The controller saved his life.He definitely was hypoxic and not fatigued.
Definitely not an expert but could well imagine that fatigue could heighten the effects hypoxia. Damned could call by the controller to pick that up so quickly, and great call by the pilot on freq to lend a hand by alluding to the cabin pressure. Have seen many video examples of hypoxia and communication becomes strained to say the least, almost talking to them as a child is the only way of getting through. Controller seemed to get on it straight away and as you say, reckon a definite life-saver in this situation.
@@SteveSalisbury The crucial thing to remember about hypoxia is that the person suffering from it is completely unaware of their predicament. When they train people in high altitude chambers they demonstrate this to them, then show then the video. Then they train them how to self idenitify and identify it in others before it gets too bad.
The test by the way, that I seen, was to simply tell the candidate their start altitude and give them the total increase in feet as the chamber went up. Occasionally they would ask them for their actual altitude. Simple mental arithmetic stops functioning as hypoxia worsens, the candidate starts giving entirely incorrect answers. When asked if they are okay, they say they are fine. Eventually (military research), they pass out with a big smile.
He was obviously fatigued (as the pilot described) but more importantly he was also hypoxic & agreed the controller saved his life recognizing it.
Yeah I would almost say he was both. Fatigued which resulted in him making a mistake (not turning on oxygen or something) that resulted in hypoxia. Not sure on the particulars of his plane but being tired enough is literally just like being drunk in terms of your ability to react and make decisions.
@@knightlautrec4311 Agreed on all counts.. ☺
That slurred speech was not fatigue. Great catch ATC.
The pilot is unlikely to remember that he was hypoxic because one of the symptoms is diminished perception and brain capacity. Those who have undergone high-altitude training in the pressure chamber understand what I am saying.
Great save by the controller.
I'm glad you called it because I was about to. Dude sounded drunk af and the oxygen may have saved his life.
fatigue might have played a role in how he came to be hypoxic
@@gregs2509 Not a fan though at his "I was looking at my fingernail" comment... That's pretty far in the symptoms list. If you get to the point where it's there, you're probably way past the no return point.
My symptoms for me is finger tingling, and if I don't act, my second is sudden heat flush to the head.
The longer you are at altitude the lower your blood oxygen level goes. In the Air Force flying the HH60G Pave Hawk our manuals said no more than 1 hr above 10,000ft MSL, and less than 30 minutes at 12,500ft MSL. Only time I was that high in the sky was crossing mountain ranges in Afghanistan and let me tell you, you start sucking air after a few minutes wearing all that gear at altitude with no supplemental oxygen. Also, all of us had our certifications in the altitude chamber and we sounded EXACTLY like this guy when they had us go off oxygen when we were at FL250. You feel happy like being drunk, then you very quickly die as your blood oxygen saturation drops to lethal levels. You recover almost immediately by turning your oxygen to 100% and putting your mask back on (and immediately descending to thicker air).
Some people will argue with you when they are hypoxic. That exacerbates the problem. It is a blessing that he followed the order and descended. The denial later was also a classic recovery from hypoxia. Like a drunk stating he was always ok to drive. Great job controller!
I suspect that unless you've done altitude training it's hard to recognise the symptoms. It's not like you're thinking straight any more.
I think we all like to assume we'd recognise the situation and trust the controller, but in reality plenty of us would argue.
@@JMMC1005 Altitude training is no guarantee, it creeps up on ya.
No doubt on the altitude training being no guarantee. I took it in 1987. I thought I had it all together. Even waved off the assistance of oxygen. Until I was slapped upside the head and told to "Save Yourself". That's why I give the controller and the pilot kudos for acting properly.
@@jaxonboys3366
It's cool you've got firsthand experience. I've never had the opportunity, and have always been interested in how I would respond.
@@JMMC1005 Most likely not how you would think. It scared me to find out how you react. I was told we react like we would if drunk. I didn't think that was true, because ugly girls were still ugly and I didn't feel like fighting. More like a 3 yr old trying to do things.
He sounded totally different. I bet he would be surprised when he hears this audio.
Well he just had an emergency declaration on him by the tower so if he was tired, drunk, hypoxic then getting declared an emergency will wake you up to follow some instructions
That's the crazy thing about our minds. They are not the master and commander. They are the spin doctor, the one that constructs a narrative to fit what "we believe" is going on.
Not everyone gets to experience this, and honestly lucky for them, but as someone who spent maybe a decade of their life doing massive amounts of drugs, you can completely believe that you are behaving completely normally, only to be shown later that you were an incoherent, slurring mess. I'm sure this guy believed he sounded, and was just fine. I'm totally sure he remembers being totally ok. But, as you say, I bet he would be absolutely stunned to hear this audio.
He probably doesnt even remember.
@@heinzletzte.6385yeah. The way he was talking about fatigue in the end was like what happened earlier never happened. Not gonna blame him, cause that’s what lack of oxygen does, but scary.
@@rayafk8502 Pilots are terrified of hypoxia. One guy at a party said, "There are all sorts of mechanical and electronic redundancies for safety, but you only have one brain. If it quits working, you're plucked." Or something similar.
You don't go from slow and slurry and confused speech, to speaking snappy and clear and completely coherent in half minute just cause you somehow push through some fatigue. You do, however, have that experience when you go from being hypoxic and you return to normal oxygen levels. ATC man saved his life, very good catch. Extra points for the no nonsense attitude, "I believe YOU are hypoxic, I am declaring an emergency for YOU, now YOU do this!"
And for keeping instructions super clear and to the point, making it easier for someone with hypoxia to understand.
@@viniciusfontes8147 For sure! It was just a perfectly handled situation, if he had hesitated just a little bit the outcome would have been very different. You can't even ask someone if they're hypoxic, or if they might be hypoxic, because if you're not, you'll say no, but if you are, you won't realize it so you will also say no. Even this pilot, several minutes after getting back to normal oxygen levels, didn't want to acknowledge that he had been hypoxic earlier, or he genuinely didn't realize it. "Oh no, it's been a busy day, I was probably just fatigued" etc..
I just hope the pilot listens back to this ATC recording and accepts that he actually was hypoxic, and that this ATC saved his life. That pilot owes the ATC guy a case of whiskey. :)
Oxygen would help the fatigue a bit, more so assuming the cabin altitude was at 12,000 or so. But yes, he was probably at a much higher altitude
If you call that "snappy, clear, and completely coherent", please descend to 6000.
@@AwestrikeFearofGods So you're an idiot.
Have you ever gotten up from your TV, or PC, to go to the kitchen and then forgotten why you went to the kitchen? That's what hypoxia is like. Your brain just "short circuits". He was first told to descend to FL230, leaned forward to do so, and then forgot what he was told to do. That's why it's important for an ATC to tell, repeatedly, a hypoxic pilot what to do. Unless told what to do the thoughts will just float and never quiet make much sense. This is where the ATC overrides that "thought-emptiness". Telling repeatedly saves lives. Because it can be as simple as the pilot leaning back, flying, being told to descend, leaning forward to do so, and then having forgotten what to do.
Great catch by the ATC and a life saved! Also, I hope the FAA will recognise that this was just the human factor of trying to reason what happened, while unable to recognise the hypoxia.
This reminds me of Arthur Dent's hungover morning in the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy by Douglas Adams, before the discussion with Mr. Prosser:
"He woke up blearily, got up, wandered blearily round his room, opened a window, saw a bulldozer, found his slippers, and stomped off to the bathroom to wash."
Sometimes the details we gloss over aren't so little.
I've personally fainted after rising out of a bath; a rapid transition from a high pressure environment. Felt something was off, thought I needed water, walked to the kitchen and next thing I knew I awoke in pain on the floor. Should I feel similar again (which I now associate with light-headed), I intend to sit down, not approach the nearest sharp object.
@@0LoneTech I have learned the signs of being close to faint and also loosing consciousness for a brief moment when I used to free dive down to 3m in swimming pool at a diving club practice. It would happen when I pressured myself myself to stay at the bottom longer, as long I was down there it was fine but when I started going to the surface the lower pressure could make me light headed and even loose consciousness for a moment, I learned to avoid pressuring me that far.
But later it has saved me from falling when I got low blood pressure from medicines, when I feel light headed sit down immediately or else I would faint. And if to slow to do that I would faint when I sit down... First time it happened my mom was near and I sad to her I think I am going to faint, while I was sitting my ass down and that was the last I remember. Woke up of my mom holding me up in the chair so I would not fall out of it, was away maybe 30 seconds. And now the sick doctors refuses to change the medicine for 2 years even if I complain they have those kind of side effect... (and they before that changed the medicine every month for a year, like they was searching for the worst medicine to use...).
That's what my brain feels like all the time and my O2 is normal.
This comment should be at the top. Recovery from hypoxia is quick, but if an aircraft is level on autopilot up in the flight levels the pilot won't recover until after fuel exhaustion in the descent, and by then it's too late. Controllers, please pay close attention: when you recognize hypoxia *continue to order the descent* until you see it on the scope, then continue to follow up through the descent. It's like managing someone drunk, you have to keep reminding them. Below 10k they will recover. This controller did an exemplary job, and it looks like they were nominated for and won an Archie for this save.
You might want to see an ear nose and throat doctor and have your inner ear checked. I was going through similar and am going through inner ear rehab for vertigo. @@jeaniebird999
That ATC is a hero. He picked up on the pilot’s hypoxia SO FAST and responded to the emergency so capably. Give this legend a raise already!
He didn't have hypoxia! He said himself he was tired from work the previous days.
@@DBonezz As lots of other people have pointed out, that is *not* a typical behavior for simple fatigue. It *is,* however, exactly how somebody would likely behave when hypoxic (including the assertions that they "feel fine", the rapid recovery, and later attempt to rationalize it away, etc).
Being tired probably didn't help, but he almost certainly *was* also hypoxic, and the controller correctly identified that and made the right call, and probably actually saved his life.
@foogod4237 wtf is wrong with you? Like fr. What is wrong? Did you hear the man confess to a felony? Then apologize for it. Are you kidding me rn. That is absolutely stupid. I respect your comment. But its absolutely retarded
@@DBonezz Yes an oxygen starved brain is not good at recognizing that it isnt working right. Notice how he sounded way clearer and snappier after taking oxygen and descending?
@mrcroob8563 Let me.make this very very very very clear. The man said and admitted he was flying sleepy. Other than this video have you followed up on this story to see what happened? I have. He wasn't charged. No investigation. Why? Because he was medically cleared and had no signs of anything.
Those moments of silence were getting me NERVOUS
Same. When his radio was toggled without hearing anything I was thinking that he was barely on the brink of going unconscious and just pressing the radio button without being able to speak. Glad it was just interference/microphone problem.
The difference between his comms when he was hypoxic vs when he descended was stunning. It sounds like a different person, like going from blowing a .20 on a BAC to .00 in a minute. You can even tell the pilot wasn’t sure what had happened, but at least he understood to immediately descend. Great job on the ATC.
I was gonna say the same thing, at first he definitely sounds slurred but hearing him with a clear head is a pretty stunning contrast.
Or more like going from a 0.25 or 0.30 BAC to 0.1 BAC lol, he was still in recovery afterward but not incapacitated
I remember during flight school, we went into a hypoxic chamber to identify the early signs of hypoxia. It's surprisingly subtle-often just feeling like fatigue-and can easily lead to daydreaming until you're unconscious. Altitude Awareness and Hypoxia Training should be mandatory in every flight training program, as recognizing hypoxia's signs is crucial for pilot safety.
In their investigation, hypoxia was responsible for the Payne Stewart incident in 1999, which I still remember vividly. The crew experienced it in a manner that was so subtle and gradual that they didn't even notice until they had passed out. The symptoms include grogginess and slurred speech. In all fairness, the crew was improperly trained. They were taught to diagnose the problem first instead of putting on their oxygen masks.
I wonder if you can induce hypoxia to yourself by simply not breathing
@@fitmotheyap i believe it would be extremely hard to replicate those conditions, since it's not about getting no oxygen at all but getting low levels, while keeping co2 levels at normal. Your body only has one system to realize it`s not getting enough air (mind you it's a good system for most situations); it's to detect co2 concentration in blood. However, if the co2 concentration stays the same, but oxygen levels are low, your body will never trigger a strong reaction.
When you don't breathe, co2 levels in your body build up, which WILL trigger that reaction and force you to breathe, which means you won't get to experience hypoxia
@@castrelspirit Ah, thanks for explaining it, didn't realise there was so much to triggering it
That INDI controller did a amazing job and may well have prevented an accident by his actions.
100% hypoxia effects everyone very differently, and some people don’t show signs of it until their O2 sats are well below safe limits. I have a good friend who just did a hypoxia lab in the Air Force, he wasn’t even showing signs of it with an O2 sat of 65%
I'd say he caught an accident in progress and mitigated its consequences.
I once became hypoxic after being at 11000 for 4 hours and my supplemental O2 ran out by accident. I was able to recognize the symptoms and request descent. My O2 sat dropped to 83 on my Garmin watch and I started to get a headache. Every pilot can exhibit hypoxia symptoms a little differently though. I think I speak for the majority of pilots when I say thank you to this controller, and all controllers, who care about us and aren't afraid to speak up when something isn't right. I'm talking to you Indy and Atlanta centers... you folks rock, and you've helped me out of a pickle on more than one occasion.
That's wild how quickly that changed from nonsense slurred babble to frustrated but clear communication. Much better to have this recording than one tracking a ghost plane to a crash.
I'm not a pilot... but I know hypoxic when I hear it. That controller 100% saved that pilots life and the pilot never even realized how far gone he really was.
You're not a doctor either. There are many things that can cause this speech abnormality. Stroke, drinking, medicine use, being extreme tired and I am sure a few other things.
@@computerjantje I'm a pilot and a critical care paramedic, you are correct that many things can cause slurred, slow and confused speech like he was exhibiting. However, those things generally don't resolve themselves solely by the application of supplemental oxygen and a return to a more oxygen rich environment. Its entirely possible he had a TIA or stroke that suddenly cleared, but his immediate return to fully coherent and normal speech would raise doubt on that diagnosis. In medicine we use the saying, "If you hear hoofbeats, its probably a horse, not a zebra", a variant of occams razor if you will. High altitude + symptoms of hypoxia is likely to be caused by hypoxia, not something more exotic.
Totally agree with you - I’m ex military with flight experience and now work in a medical facility and that speech was slurred which improved dramatically after descending. 👍 ATC intervention prevented that situation from escalating
@@Nervegas "If you hear hoof beats, its probably a horse, not a zebra" I like that.. for multiple reasons. 😄 Yeah it was like night and day with the altitude change. 👍
@@bunkerrocketworks3190 @computerjantje I wasn't sure if the pilot didn't realize what happened or if perhaps he didn't want admit it to ATC for some reason. Can hypoxia make it so you don't even know it's happening or happened? Curious. Ty both.
he was coming back from a funeral and this controller prevented a second. Great job ZID, you caught that EARLY. I think we can all consider the archie league won for this year. I'm proud of you guys
Imagine if there were no weather to initiate that contact from ATC........
Hypoxia is a devious killer. You feel like everything is fine.
Can't believe he actually told the controller on a recorded channel that he was fatigued yet insisted on flying. Now, he was perhaps trying to rationalize what clearly appeared to be hypoxic symptoms but nevertheless, he should not have offered what appears to be an even worse reason for his performance at altitude.
Yes, that floored me. Not flying tired is kind of important.
Hypoxia = poor decision making.
Checks out :)
I’m wondering based on that if this isn’t alcohol related because he’s still slurred
He seemed to be improving so I’ll go with hypoxia as most likely. He seemed totally incoherent at first. I agree it’s strange to put it down to fatigue as I would have thought taking off knowing you are too fatigues is more likely to get you in trouble with the authorities than hypoxia.
Denial/babbling is something hypoxic people also do when they're under it and coming out of it so yeah.. hypoxia
No sir, you were not tired, the controller was 100% correct and saved your life.
Another life saved by an on the ball ATC. Well done Sir
That was not fatigue at all. I hope that pilot listens to this audio and realizes what happened… That air traffic controller saved his life
The way that dude was slurring, absolutely no shot he wasn't suffering from hypoxia. And if fatigue was a factor, he needs to be honest with himself during his preflight and be willing to say that he's not fit to fly. IMSAFE should be the very first checklist item during your preflight.
IMSAFE is one of those first-day-of-flight school things everyone learns (and some forget), and pilots are notorious at convincing themselves that they're fine. I'm glad he's ok.
@@susannafrench Absolutely. Every BFR and IPC I've ever had since I started flying the CFI has quizzed me on IMSAFE. We have to be honest with ourselves and not be too proud to admit when we're not up to it. I've cancelled flights before because I'm just feeling "off" for one reason or another. It's better to be on the ground wishing you were in the air than the other way around.
Yes, at that moment, that's either hypoxia or he's having a stroke. The fact that he's coherent again a minute later tells you which one.
The "I'm fatigued" response, I think, is a shock response -- trying to convince yourself that everything's fine. That shouldn't be taken at face value in the moment.
The longer you are at altitude the lower your blood oxygen level goes. In the Air Force flying the HH60G Pave Hawk our manuals said no more than 1 hr above 10,000ft MSL, and less than 30 minutes at 12,500ft MSL. Only time I was that high in the sky was crossing mountain ranges in Afghanistan and let me tell you, you start sucking air after a few minutes wearing all that gear at altitude with no supplemental oxygen. Also, all of us had our certifications in the altitude chamber and we sounded EXACTLY like this guy when they had us go off oxygen when we were at FL250. You feel happy like being drunk, then you very quickly die as your blood oxygen saturation drops to lethal levels. You recover almost immediately by turning your oxygen to 100% and putting your mask back on (and immediately descending to thicker air).
Fatigue probably was a factor… a factor which led to making the poor decision to fly, in turn not setting the pressurisation correctly (or at all), leading to the absolute classic example of hypoxia.
‘On supplemental oxygen since you told me to descend’ and magically feel okay now! No, hypoxia.
The garbled transmissions in the middle is most likely the s**tty mike in the O2 mask (he seems to have donned), or not flicking the mike selector from headset to mask. Tx all okay after he gets below 10k and goes back on his headset.
I hope this is fully investigated by the authorities and the pilot if honest with himself and then investigators, so that hopefully others can learn from this.
Great catch by the controller! This should be another training video of ATCs all over.
That was my analysis too, which suggests to me that you must be really smart
@@slyskyspysty Great minds think alike, though fools seldom differ.
I'm not informed on either topic of hypoxia or the fatigue effects. But saw your comment and had a question since you seem more knowledgeable in both areas than me personally at the moment. I did have to Google fl270 to know what altitudes they were talking ☠️. But would they be able to make it that high in altitude without cabin pressurization? or incorrectly doing it considering stated they only turned on supplemental oxygen for the descent, implying it was off up until that point?
Great catch by that Controller, and good on that pilot for not questioning ATC and following the directions. ATC saved that mans life and hopefully he added a hard-stamped mental checklist item to his flying.
ATC saved his life. Chilling to listen to. Holy cow.
Absolutely, positively hypoxia.....and very calm, professional and courteous response from ATC.....great job!
My first idea would have been a stroke. Obviously the fact that he's coherent again a minute later confirms that it was, in fact, hypoxia.
Outstanding awareness by the Controller and very tactful.
Agreed. By being careful he kept him from being resistant.
Fantastic ATC and probably averted a disaster and saved the pilots life. Shoutout also to the American 2334 pilot chipping in and helping out with the cabin altitude indicator suggestion.
Hypoxia is no joke
...had 2 pax experience it at 10K, got clearance immediately for 6K.
Were these pax women by any chance? I've heard women are more susceptible to hypoxia than men. I've also heard that men are usually fine up to 10K, while women are at a greater chance of hypoxia starting at 8K.
@@viniciusfontes8147
One man, one woman
- both in their 30s, in average shape, not overweight, or with health issues of which I was aware.
I was fine -
Suspect due to a 2 mile jog once or twice weekly.
Never had a VO2 Max test, or similar - so, scientifically, not really sure why I was fine.
I had it once at 10000 back when i was a smoker. Flying alone, stopped caring, became a passenger on my own aircraft enjoying the view, thinking about anything but aviating, and not monitoring the aircraft. The so called "euphoria"...weird feeling, then the voice in my head kicked me to remember training. Descended and boom...clarity hits so quick.
How long does that take to happen? I never really questioned it skydiving but we always go up to 14000 at sea level. Not for very long though. I think the pilots just decend right after we are clear though. I definitely never felt anything.
@@LoneStarStinger Unfortunately, there is no set "x" min "y" sec for hypoxia to establish. Military trains crew members to recognize their own symptom(s). If the symptom(s) appear, then the crew member needs to take corrective action like going on 100% oxygen etc...
Good job on the controller for noticing and reacting quickly. Good job on the American pilot for offering helpful input but staying off the radio the rest of the time.
It did seem like that statement from the other pilot as what started to turn things around. The hypoxia pilot made some kind of change after hearing that, maybe by putting on his oxygen. Maybe that direction was some kind of code or signal from one pilot to another? I think the American Pilot said exactly the right thing. Perfect timing too.
As soon as he started rambling at 4:30 he got himself into a bit of trouble with the FAA 😂 - IMSAFE guys, IMSAFE….
Yeah he should have definitely left all that out. On the Kalitta hypoxia incident those pilots snapped back to normal immediately at the lower altitude, this guy never really did.
Guy sunk his own ship
To be fair if he was hypoxic, he's likely going to say stuff like that (i.e., making up alternatives to hypoxia). Not saying he won't be in trouble with FAA anyway, but it at least makes it more difficult to nail someone for what they say when their brain isn't working right due to something else I would think...
You guys are brutal damn hahaha
Having never been hypoxic, i can't truly understand. Is this post-hypoxia "drunkenness" he displayed a biological phenomenon or was it just this guy?
I’ve been in the tank at Beale AFB. He was hypoxic. Great job by ATC
He sounded drunk at altitude but better lower. If no pressurization problem then he may want to see a doctor.
He may want to reconsider flying an aircraft when he’s that fatigued. It is the airman’s responsibility to make sure he is physically fit for flying.
Agreed... after a funeral reception.
Yeah, that's hypoxia. There's more oxygen at lower altitudes
@@j.heilig7239 He was not fatigued lol
@@GeorgeLiquorhe also said he was huffing a bottle after “he was told to”
If that pilot went up with fatigue that bad, he shouldn't be flying. That was hypoxia and the hypoxia still had him not thinking right to suggest he was too tired to fly, while flying.
The longer you are at altitude the lower your blood oxygen level goes. In the Air Force flying the HH60G Pave Hawk our manuals said no more than 1 hr above 10,000ft MSL, and less than 30 minutes at 12,500ft MSL. Only time I was that high in the sky was crossing mountain ranges in Afghanistan and let me tell you, you start sucking air after a few minutes wearing all that gear at altitude with no supplemental oxygen. Also, all of us had our certifications in the altitude chamber and we sounded EXACTLY like this guy when they had us go off oxygen when we were at FL250. You feel happy like being drunk, then you very quickly die as your blood oxygen saturation drops to lethal levels. You recover almost immediately by turning your oxygen to 100% and putting your mask back on (and immediately descending to thicker air).
Good job ATC
1:10 that extra time at FL270 was definitely taking its toll. The descent was not a moment too soon, and all the classic signs and symptoms of hypoxia - excellent training on this is clearly being done with trainee ATCOs (hopefully) worldwide.
No alarm, so cabin altitude was below 15000 feet. Pressurization failed but the air didn't immediately leave.
That ATC saved that guy's life... he was 1000% hypoxic and thank god he listened and put on his oxygen - instantly changed him. Hope the pilot ended up hearing this later to realize how much danger he was in.
What incredible cooperation from ATC, American pilot in the vicinity. This is a happy, happy story.
Bloody well done. This could have easily turned into an episode of air crash investigations. Great work ATC.
This is a EXCELLENT ATC controller . Kuddos Sir.
ATC lad was fantastic, good man.
i absolutely love how the controller isn't in the least accusatory, just concerned. And honestly props to the pilot for not immediately taking it as an insult, since that's apparently something not every pilot is capable of..
0:20 man you can HEAR the slurring
Working all weekend, probably outside, early morning trip to a funeral, "kinda sluggish". Hey, let's get in an airplane and fly. SMH. it's amazing this didn't have a tragic ending.
And flying friends to a funeral? He’s lucky there wasn’t multiple more!
The longer you are at altitude the lower your blood oxygen level goes. In the Air Force flying the HH60G Pave Hawk our manuals said no more than 1 hr above 10,000ft MSL, and less than 30 minutes at 12,500ft MSL. Only time I was that high in the sky was crossing mountain ranges in Afghanistan and let me tell you, you start sucking air after a few minutes wearing all that gear at altitude with no supplemental oxygen. Also, all of us had our certifications in the altitude chamber and we sounded EXACTLY like this guy when they had us go off oxygen when we were at FL250. You feel happy like being drunk, then you very quickly die as your blood oxygen saturation drops to lethal levels. You recover almost immediately by turning your oxygen to 100% and putting your mask back on (and immediately descending to thicker air).
@@jollypirate23Risky job but Lord to imagine the experience of flight at such speeds. You sir made it far
Wow ... Excellent discernment and attention to detail on the controller.
I am so glad this wasn’t going to be another funeral (funerals). Outstanding job by controller, truer words never spoken as “ safe than sorry”!
Better safe than sorry. Good job, ATC.
What an example of sheer professionalism and competency.
The slurring of words, the clear confusion and losing his train of thought. The controller was spot on.
Fatigue is exacerbated by high altitude. Even if his pressurization was working normally. If he's used to sea level, but at 8,000ft cabin altitude, he's going to be extra tired.
I've had something similar happen, albiet not as severe as his case. Got downstairs to the crew van, felt fine, just a little tired, did the walk around and preflight work, felt fine, just a little tired, took off, felt fine just a little tired, but when our cabin altitude starting climbing above the 7,000 mark I started making a few dumb mistakes that I know I wouldn't make normally. Forgot to switch to 29.92 above FL180, missed a couple radio calls, almost forgot to get the ATIS, etc. I could tell I was way more fatigued than I was on the ground. Immediately I double checked our pressurization to make sure it's working, and let the other pilot know how I was doing and asked him how he was feeling. As soon as we descended I went back to feeling okay. Thankfully that was my only leg that day, but if I had more flights scheduled that day I would've definetly called fatigue. In hindsight, It may have been smart for me to put my mask on just for the extra boost. Glad I had that experience so I could learn from it.
Descending and getting more oxygen would certainly give him a boost, even if he wasn't full on hypoxic. Great actions by this controller.
Definitely hypoxic before using oxygen. I work in a hospital and hear hypoxic patients all the time. Great catch from the controller. The Pilot should listen to how he sounded on this recording and see how bad he was to understand the difference between fatigue and hypoxia.
Yep, hypoxic. Hopefully he got the plane checked out to see if there was a pressurization issue. But yes, give the ATC a medal!
Hypoxia is absolutely terrifying. If you're not specifically trained for it, you have no idea its happening, there's no "too late" to know about. You're there until you're not, and your brain makes you black out while still being "conscious". You still move, but not in an autopilot way, more of a toddler way. You're moving and "awake", but everything you do is senseless.
My favourite example of what hypoxia can do is in a SmarterEveryDay video. He purposely gives himself hypoxia in a very controlled environment, and it's absolutely terrifying to see him go from completely normal, to slightly uncoordinated and a bit nonsensical, to fully unresponsive while "conscious", unable to do one of those shape-hole baby toys, and laughing for no reason. He was still awake before he was oxygenated and still hypoxic, but he was not there. Then (assuming there was no cut, which there didn't seem to be), the second he got back on oxygen, he was completely back to normal, like nothing happened.
You can see the point where the pilot is just gone in his final transmission right before the ATC declared the emergency first. Right at 1:00, he starts talking, then just drifts off. It's impressive how quickly the ATC realized what happened. What's terrifying is that there's nothing you can do but just hope the plane lowers to an altitude where there's enough oxygen.
Like hitting the airduster
Hi there - I was the pilot flying that day. I swear to the heavens that I had been working hard all day and had some gunk under my fingernails. I really just had been a little exhausted and it caused me to slur my speech. Funny thing, when I work hard and my fingernails are not clean, I slur the shit out of my words.
Well done to the ATC controller, doing a very commendable job❤
Bloody good bit of ATC work. Really smart, and timely.
The ATC system is by and large first rate. My experience with the system is controllers as skilled and professional as this helpful ATC agent. Well done.❤
Wow, what a great air traffic controller! 👏👏👏 they showed no judgement and were very respectful! Good job
That’s not fatigue. Something else is going on medically related. His conversation is just off.
Its called alcohol
@@davidwebb4904 definitely could be.
Nope
@@maxvideodrome4215 called hypoxia they can become very chatty
@@davidwebb4904 nah he didn’t sober up in the short time between initial emergency and when he got down
I’ve been hypoxic. In altitude chamber training. I felt goooood and didn’t care about anything. They had us do simple math problems, and my arithmetic and handwriting got worse and worse as I felt better and better.
It’s no joke
Dear gods, he sounds so drunk... Hypoxia is nasty and that ATC is a very literal lifesaver!
People are genuinely believing that here....
@UnrulyRantLord uh, yes? You being cynical here, or just having screwy grammar?
What a great job by this ATC, watching out for this pilot. Give that man a raise!
I might have believed it was fatigue, but after he got way better at 6,000 feet, it’s gotta be hypoxia. Good catch.
It's great that the pilot's ego (as in personality) was one that allowed him to accept the control center's judgment that he was hypoxic.
When he's hypoxic, like a drunk person, they default to their base desires.
You know the investigator is going to have all sorts of questions.
Superb actions by ATC in noticing the issue, and also by the pilot, responding quickly and showing gratitude for the ATC's concern. This might make a handy insert into a human factors training programme.
If it was fatigue and not hypoxia, I’d imagine he would’ve perked up to decline the emergency declaration on his behalf. Definitely sounded like his condition improved with the supplemental oxygen and descent. Good job ATC.
If you have hypoxia you don’t know it, and its extremely dangerous. so of course they are not trained to refuse help, you should accept it just in case
3:23 "I feel totally fine and coherent" . . . which a person either untrained or not retaining their training about hypoxia would say, in the first stages of hypoxia.
Its also what a person would say if they were not hypoxic, and felt fine.
@@amw_cats Yes, if they were around or below 10,000 feet, not slurring, and following ATC instructions and doing readbacks normally. Which is not in this video. Did you watch the video? Don't be an ass.
@@danniem The slurring and incoherency is evidence, not what you quoted. “I feel fine and coherent”cannot be used as evidence either way. It is a completely neutral statement, as a person suffering from hypoxia is likely to say it as well as someone not suffering from hypoxia.
It’s like when someone goes “Oh, you say you are innocent and did not commit this crime? Well that is EXACTY what a guilt person would say! 🫵 Gotcha!” Both guilty and innocent say they are innocent, so it’s dumb to try and turn a neutral statement against someone.
Imagine waking up to seeing the ground coming towards you at 200kts as you hurtle through 1,000ft unable to pull up in time
Saved that man's life.
Good on the commercial pilot as well !!
This is where “personal minimums” comes into play, already knowing the fact that your fatigued from a long weekend at that point should’ve said postpone this flight go get some rest and try again…..Nothing else is worth your life and others
Sharp SHARP ATC!!! What a professional!! The pilot ?? Flying knowing he was fatigued .. busy weekend physically tired out.. what could possibly go wrong? Flying his friend’s to their father’s funeral?? Could been a triple or quadrupled ceremony!!!!
The slurring in his speech was significant, but I can also see how you might second-guess yourself and think that might be just how the pilot talks. The difference in his speech once he descended is just crazy. Chilling. ATC potentially saved multiple lives.
That’s real teamwork. So thankful the controller was on it, noticed the pilot’s decline and guided him to safety.
Pilot was almost asleep and hypoxic. Dangerous x2!
The controllers at Indy center, Indy Approach and Departure have all been top notch in my experience. Thanks to all of them.
4:20 Translation: this plane isn't the only thing that's high and this is my cover story.
Appropriate timestamp
Wow, what a wonderful , super , professional, kind controller . My respect sir, a wonderful example of a professional. ❤
Atc to the rescue, nice job!
Watching this in real time is wild. It just happens and there's no stopping it. Thank you ATC.
He saved at least one life. Well done sir!
The controller needs a raise, he may well have saved the lives of everyone on that plane. Even more impressive is how quickly he determined that. Outstanding work by ATC.
Kudos to the ATC guy. Definitely hypoxia. But It's plausible that the pilot's fatigue led him to make a mistake somehow that LED to his hypoxia.
These ATC people are so rock solid under pressure. Clear and concise.
What is terrifying is how close this pilot was to passing out. The controller stirred him out of a stupor.
That is one lucky pilot and one very excellent ATC !💜💜💜
When he turned off supplemental oxygen he started slurring again
I was kinda wondering and hearing the same thing, but I don't know how hypoxia and oxygen affects each other over time, especially after being hypoxic for a while. I think you are on to something.
@@海伯庵 I don’t think you understand what I was saying. He immediately recovered when he got oxygen and sounded normal. However, as soon as he took his supplemental oxygen off, he started sounding a little off, even though he was below 8000 feet.
I don't think it was hypoxia. I think alcohol was involved, he got a jolt of fear and so he was trying to sound coherent and sober, but could only maintain that for so long.
@ interesting
Daaang, good looking out, Mr air traffic controller!! Man, That can get scary real quick. New fear unlocked.
Amazing job by the controller.
The second he got the pilot descending and on supplemental oxygen you could immediately hear the difference.
The longer you are at altitude the lower your blood oxygen level goes. In the Air Force flying the HH60G Pave Hawk our manuals said no more than 1 hr above 10,000ft MSL, and less than 30 minutes at 12,500ft MSL. Only time I was that high in the sky was crossing mountain ranges in Afghanistan and let me tell you, you start sucking air after a few minutes wearing all that gear at altitude with no supplemental oxygen. Also, all of us had our certifications in the altitude chamber and we sounded EXACTLY like this guy when they had us go off oxygen when we were at FL250. You feel happy like being drunk, then you very quickly die as your blood oxygen saturation drops to lethal levels. You recover almost immediately by turning your oxygen to 100% and putting your mask back on (and immediately descending to thicker air).
Yeah, he still sounded tired and out of it but the slurring went from 100 to 0.
Its good to know there are ATCs out there like this guy.
This was seconds away from turing into a ghost flight
Great job by the ATC
That pilot needs to take the L and thank the controller for saving his life
Well trained ATC saved a few lives , well done and very professional
Hypoxia is the Friends we made along the way