Jordan Peterson is a Heretic? Jonathan Pageau on JBP [Insitum Verbum Reupload]
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 16 ก.ย. 2024
- I am re uploading all of Insitum Verbum's videos that got removed from his channel for some reason. He stopped uploading two years ago and I did not want his work to disappear from TH-cam.
All credit goes to @InsitumVerbum for the production of these clips/videos.
In the meantime, enjoy.
source: not sure
Can definitely agree with Pageau here. Peterson was able to reach out to me when I was finding myself "conservative" but still spiritually closed off. I honestly couldn't be sure if I'd be where I am today without him getting the ball rolling.
What if Christianity is really true? It means a complete reorientation of everything you've ever done in the past, are doing and thinking now, and everything you will ever do or think in the future, and why. Yeah, that's a bit terrifying to look at, which is why most people, including most Christians, never entertain it seriously.
Very true. I’m Christian and I felt anxious even reading this 😅 Lord have mercy.
The process of reorientation on the scale of your entire life is way too much to mentally undertake because thinking about yourself, as Peterson talks about, is the definition of suffering. Instead, the process of faith is one of undergoing the most asserted effort possible to share your specific light with the world- in alignment with the values Christ demanded of his followers. Grace and peace are within these values because all people know themselves to be guilty in some way AND deserve forgiveness. Otherwise we could never know ourselves deserving of the best life.
@@Directorman3 well said. Thank you for that
@@Directorman3 True, you can't force yourself into it that much, I feel you have to abandon yourself to it instead.
Some rambling thoughts: In my experience with very conservative to rather liberal Christians, in their theological interpretations and life applications, it seems quite rare to not run into personalized versions of hypocrisy. Dare I assume, they are consciously chosen. Whether they are defense mechanisms against change and its accompanying fear, subtle ways of living rather selfishly while keeping outward appearances in one's agreed upon "Church Rules", merely reflecting the input of one's family and communal upbringing, or a profoundly deep distrust of God that one hasn't fully realized ( or again, won't admit to in public ). Which might be the powerfully challenging reason why Christ taught to look into our own eyes first for any hypocrisy before seeking to point out any flaw / sin in another. On top of all this, God's Grace and Love at this point in my life seems all the more believable when contrasted with human fallibility and such hypocrisy. The Church preaches on hellfire and damnation for those who sin ( including so-called Christians who "sin", whatever that exactly means ), or the most Progressive of Christian communities seem to not talk about sin much at all. Well, to be more precise, taking a page out of a Cultural Anthropology class, every culture has its own version of their Sin List. Out of a Top 10, many cultures around the world might agree with 7 out of the 10, but put them in completely different orders. Ever notice that even between denominations?
Who's right when we all must be vigilant regarding our personal hypocrisies. It explains strained relationships, congregations splitting, etc. And I am not implying that Conservatives are or have been always correct, either. Even at the point of any Idolatry of Tribalism, so to speak, our social connections matter a whole lot when compared to seeking truth. Preservation of Self vs Truth? That seems to be the M.O. for the vast majority of the Church, and, no, I'm not willing to say they are somehow gonna be rejected by the Judge and sent to Hell. Yet, we play the part. Isn't such moral failing a grievous sin in itself, deeply offensive in being prideful against our fellow human being before the Creator? Yeah, I'm rambling, but I mean it. We are far worse hypocrites than we realize or admit to, yet we are deeply loved by our Father. Maybe we should heed Francois Fenelon's instruction as to being offended by a fellow sibling in Christ: It could very well be that our greater reaction signifies a flaw present that the Spirit wants to work on. But how many of the Church, including our elders, pastors, priests, pope, truly, actually open themselves completely up to transformation. One thing to pray it, especially openly in front of others, another thing entirely to sincerely do it. Grace, Wisdom, Love to us all.
I always cut Peterson some slack because in the beginning he was a full blown atheist who studdied Jung. He was crucial to my own journey as he bridged a gap between secular and spiritual on an intelectual level that neither Hitchens, Dawkins or even Harris (who acknowledges at least that people need to fill that hole) never could.
More than just waving off religion as some “bronze age tale made up by illiterate sheep herders” he actually tried to see the real psychological value of the story being told. Because nothing that persevered this long and had such an influential effect on Civilization as we know it can just be meaningless fairytales. He’s gotten more religious but he’s not there yet. I can see why it would be problematic because he’s still teaching when he’s still in a transitionary period. He’s gone from Cold, to Lukewarm, to something near warm.
But good on Pageu in pointing this out. Friends need to call you out so you don’t stray from the path. I hope Peterson appreciates it in the future. He’s helped a lot of people come to the faith despite not being so himself, so God is using him justly. I hope we keep seeing him grow, acknowledge some faults and do better.
Wow, Pageau surprised me positively here. I didn't think he had the virility to call out Jordan for his position.
Imho the Orthos tend to judge Pageau a bit harshly for his softness - he's no Jay - but Pageau is pretty based and he's helped me wrap my head around quite a bit of Theology
@justian1772 I did hear him say he believes in an Anglican branch theory type of thing on God Bless studios... like that the Orthodox are on the top of the hierarchy, but then Coptics/Orientals, then Roman Catholics, then Anglicans, etc.
@@OrthoLou I don’t think that’s branch theory, just that there is a Hierarchy of good things and that Orthodoxy is of course #1. Pageau’s personality is just a little squishy, that’s all.
@@OrthoLou I haven't seen the podcast in question but can confirm I've seen Pageau decline opportunities to defend Orthodoxy even when they've been presented. I think he tries to keep an open door to every person he's ever spoken to.
@@justian1772 Yes, he seems to avoid statements like "Salvation is only in the Orthodox Church" or "Only the Orthodox Church is the true church"
“Do not forbid him, for he who is not against you is for you” Jesus.
But only If he have a political conservative view.
The fact Peterson can entertain and greatly benefit from christianity without actually being a christian is his greatest quality and the greatest boon he has given to the modern world. We cannot and should not go back to christianity as a whole, but we cannot abandon and tarnish its wisdom. Jordan is a uniting figure to bring the old christian past into this new secular society.
"should not" lol
@@lolsing2205 I am allowed to have personal opinions no?
@dolbez9739 Yes, but that doesn't mean the opinion deserves respect and can't be ridiculed or laughed at
@j4ckomc Respect is a 2 way street, and so far he's been much more respectful than you. Why would any take *your* opinion seriously?
Yea but did Christ really rise from the grave or not? That can't be interpreted as just a useful story -- and anyone who thinks of it that way is not a Christian. This is where faith comes in, not intellectual prowess. For that reason, the dumb peasant in the Church who was described can have the Wisdom of God living in Him, while the intellectual is still chasing his tail. The cross is foolishness to those who are perishing!
spirituel blindness comes into this very much too, there is much evidence for Jesus rising from the grave, the eyewitnesses and their aftermaths and the continual perfect preservial of the Church shows the evidence. people are just really blinded and hardening their hearts and that way they wont ever see the Truth, pray for them brother
If it's not a useful story, it's worthless.
@@iunnox666 Respectfully, that does not make sense to me. It's actually worthless as a useful story -- it's real value can only come in in being true -- that is why Paul said if Christ did not actually raise Himself from the grave, our faith is in vain.
@@benweidner3127 So the wisdom it contains about living your life well in a myriad of situations, that's worthless? The only value is if it's essentially just a fairy tale that's actually true?
I just cannot wrap my head around that. To me that seems to essentially be desire for fantasy to be reality. I see no value in that whatsoever.
A common criticism of Christianity is that it is a control mechanism operating on people's fear of death. Is death/what happens afterwards the main focus of spirituality for you? Is anything else important?
@@iunnox666 I understand what you're saying completely, but the Bible itself speaks to it. God in His ultimate wisdom (from which you got your own) has chosen things which would seem to be foolish to those who are unwilling to humble themselves for His wisdom (Christ). Imagine a doorway, which you won't pass through unless you duck down (humilty)...otherwise you will just keeping banging your head. It's actually amazing and profound. Read 1 Corinthians: "For since, in the wisdom of God, the world by wisdom knew not God, it by pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save those who believe." And later in 1:27: "But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise, and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound those who are mighty." There are many good virtues to be found by non-believers in the texts of many religions, but only faith in Jesus Christ as a reality, with a life lived accordingly, can save him from sin and death. I hope this at least makes a little more sense in regard to what the Orthodox Christian argument is.
for anyone confused about the title: the video is a reupload from a channel that had all of its videos deleted, jiub didnt choose the title just to be a meanie, its just the title of the original video
Jordan as a transitional figure is true. I really love his work and I've moved on to Catholic figures and the church in part due to his work. God bless him no matter what he does.
Leave judgements to God lest you trip and fall.
Calling another person a "heretic" is very dangerous.
Taking a deep look into the Bible may not be new, but it certainly hasn't been the norm either.
This seem to be an old video as they seem to be friends now. Maybe he managed to teach JP a thing or two
St. Jiub, the one who got did of the cliffracers. Ok, but seriously ofc an intellectual POV to christianity is always heretical, because christianity is based on blind faith, not o critical and analytical thinking!
@@saint-jiub Or wht my favourite thinker liked to say: Thought, actions and physical manifestation practically must be aligned.
This is actually told when the devil tested Jesus in the desert. Devil tested him with the physical (sell you soul for bread or more broaddly for any earthly possesion), with emotions (sell your soul for possible to command angels or something as miraculous powers) and finally the intellectual (sell your soul for political power/knowledge etc.)
I know this may be considered heretical to some and that they say as a Son of God Jesus could do things we never could. Maybe so, but what IF we could, would do it? May be some people would and IMO only from this position we can understand the significance of answers of Jesus to these questions . But this is just my understanding of it, just your answer reminded me of this passage in the Bible
I'm mainly hoping Peterson regretted tweeting "Give em hell, Netanyahu" assuming he figured out the fake news by now and who the real aggressors are, did he ever delete that?
2:06 But on Peterson's basically deist Jeffersonian Christianity, yes definitely cut him some slack because like Pageau said here, Peterson is clearly still figuring it out even though his philosophical brain is in the way.
I am hoping Jordan's Jewish psyop phrase 'Judeo-Christian' runs its course and he just says Christian at some point. You can't mix oil and water.
@@VARELA2nd philosophy isn't "in the way." philosophy is a love of wisdom, to be against philosophy is to be against learning itsself. in other words, to be willfully ignorant.
"who the real aggressors are" don´t blame jordan peterson for your shallow understanding of the conflict. obviously you haven´t dove into the topic very deeply or you had a bias when assessing the sources. by the way: wikipedia is NOT a good source at the moment. here is a very direct source for example: the videos that hamas put out on oct 7th. do you not considers the things they did as aggressive to the utmost?
@@noyes8836 isreal has done more, and they started it.
What do we do? We completely change our society, our understanding of the natural world, foreign policy, we evangelize and over through governments, we start seeking discovery and experiments with the supernatural, we accept that spiritual warfare is real and demons are deceiving people, we put all our efforts and energy in to prayer to enact the holy spirit to make changes in the world, we reveal in suffering because it creates virtues, we figure out which denomination is correct, we take the bible as the living word of God and live out how it says to, we remove acceptance of the lgbtq+ community, we decrease the equality of women, we treat the environment with the perspective that the earth is not our forever home so it's not all that important.... just to name a few. That's only if the stories are real.
JBP straight up said “yes” when Jesse lee peterson asked if he believes in god
I think it's important to note that people can have a totally orthodox and good "simple" and pure understanding of theology. People like this are often the most pious and holiest people in a church.
It's when the simple views are attached to silly modern and scientific ideas that it is a problem.
thank u for saying this! (Maybe im ignorant)
Thanks,I think Jordan is a great man,sometimes I wonder if he,s a kinda Paul before the road to Damascus experience. He sure takes us on journeys with his thinking n learning n questioning that is very valuable,imoStill as we know we musnt make a God of anyone in our thinking,other than our journeyin to understand the true Godhead,imo
3:20 dang. Called me out directly 😅
There were historically Christians who occupied a similar position like Synesius of Cyrene, who mediated between Neoplatonism and Christianity.
Peterson revivified the faith in physicalist terms, that’s precisely what he did.
To borrow from Jordan Hall, he exposed that Christianity is the first “religion that’s not a religion”
Since I first listened to Peterson, I went from atheist communist to faithful Catholic and integralist. Meanwhile, he is still saying the same stuff he has said since he wrote maps of meaning. So, I don’t really believe he is sincere in his quest for truth. Even his own wife has surpassed him on the journey.
what if all stories from all religions and legends are true at the same time ?! that would be cool and scary for some
Would enjoy one or two talks that didnt involve Jordan Peterson. The man is wearying and Jonathan should get off the JP train
This video is somewhat dated I believe
Peterson is a smart man who can reason the nuances of life well but I have found him woefully lacking on the Bible.
He would do well in any study of the Bible from a literary aspect (something I suck at) but I do not think he truly underatands the message.
It is beyond me how a person can read the bible and come up with the idea that Mary is sinless.
Read Catholic doctrine. It explains how they get that from the Bible. They also ask how Jesus could not inherit original sin from her if she is His biological mother. It goes on and on.
It gets pretty convoluted.
@@tatie7604 I read the bible and I see the very verse where she confesses to be a sinner and how overjoyed she is in Jesus her Savior-->Luke 1:47 KJV - And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
The title of this video is not reflective of what Jonathan is trying to say. Why is a so called orthodox TH-camr trying to tarnish a friendship for his own chronically online purposes?
it is exactly what he said tho
Because God is more important than the feelings of your academia buddies. It’s one thing to not be a Christian, it’s another thing to obsess over Christianity and create a headcanon based on fusing it with Jung.
He’s literally heretical. Pageau isn’t being pejorative.
@@stevendouglas3781 another chronically online yapper with no social skills. Don’t worry bro you’re really making a stand for God with your online opinions. You should dress up as a crusader or archbishop when you sit at your computer too, it would really bring your role playing fantasy to the next level!
It is reflective of that though.
@@stevendouglas3781orthodox figures work to build and maintain friendships with the non Christian world as a means of evangelism. You just sit here and play Teutonic knight on the computer and pretend you’re somehow making a stand for God while never actually contributing anything except attacks on bridges other men built. Maybe you ought to dress up as an archbishop or a crusader while you’re at it to really bring your online cosplay to life
While its good that he brings Christianity to the surface I think that he unintentionally belittles it by reducing the biblical events to philosophical fantasies instead of acknowledging them as historical. Hes even gone so far as to debating with atheists and people of other faith while being underprepared and he made the Christian faith look terrible by not being properly educated in Christian theology and apologetics. I think a man of his intelligence and position should know better than to debate a topic you just learned about recently.
Im saying this as a big fan of him. He actually played a role in getting me to Christ. And I think his neutral perspective can play a role in converting people.
The philosophical lessons told in the stories, tools to orient yourself in the world and live properly, are what's actually important in the religion. Without that, it is entirely worthless.
This is a very old clip of Pageau.
Probably
Why are we wasting time analyzing Jordan Peterson vis-a-vis Pageau? How does any of it help Inquirers and new Converts to Orthodoxy? Other Christian expressions lead to nowhere if one wants to be a Christian.
I tend to agree. I get really tired of the Orthodox preoccupying themselves with celebrity figures external to the faith. In what way does Jordan Petersons meandering deism pertain to our podvig, fronima or noetic penetration? It seems like utterly peripheral groping at those most shrouded in the zeitgeists spotlight. It seems like desperation and wasted energy.
@@MaximusWolfe Thanks for responding to my comment. I've been Orthodox all my life and could never understand all the hype regarding Peterson (and Pageau for that matter; who's a convert) by the younger generation. Some of these do convert. But, in my experience, the conversions are to something that's not quite Orthodox as Orthodoxy understands Herself. I hope I'm making myself clear? PS: Ancient Faith Radio is having a podcast going on right now about Peterson. However, I wish they'd stop being skittish and politically correct in the presentation.
Nonsense.
Peterson is not the archetype of the messianic hero or the wise man, but of Judas who sells his intellectual and spiritual integrity for the psychological comfort, his Ego being as happy as a tamed lion happy to squeeze itself into a culturally acceptable box, with his arse sitting on many fences. Selling salvation is a business making more than 30 pieces of silver, so why not? What is truth, anyway? Whatever the hell works.
In a twisted way, I respect more those who hold a more ‘traditional’ view about the word of god; at least, they hold some beliefs, deluded as they are. They have some balls (though, having unwavering belief in the fact that that they’re superior to others speaks volumes about their character and explains their actions that follow from those beliefs).
Yeah, St Cyrus… Kissing political arse has always been one of the religious people’s job description. But not Ancient Egypt, though. The fact that it was one Ancient Egypt’s kings who loved and entrusted Joseph with ruling power over Ancient Egyptians or that an Ancient Egyptian princess saved Moses doesn’t matter when curses are uttered against Ancient Egypt as part of the long litany of curses against everybody in the whole human history who doesn’t kiss that god’s arse.
It is not about whether the older and newer biblical tales have a historic basis, it is about the character of those who believe them. And about the character of those who kinda believe them as long as they can weasel their way by means of clever exegesis. And, as in Peterson’s case, the character of the hubristic so-called intellectuals who would make a cultural- spiritual casserole to feed their egos and manipulate the mobs.
It is DISGUSTING.
Pageau is doing good work with Peterson. Why throw a wrench in the works by uploading something so polemical? He's not wrong but I'm assuming this was from a time before they became friends. There's literally no benefit in calling a Non-Christian a heretic.
You have stunted comprehension. 😊
"There's literally no benefit in calling a Non-Christian a heretic" ?????