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Atheist Debates - What did Jesus sacrifice?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 1 ก.ย. 2022
- Even if we assume the stories are true, where is the sacrifice? What was given up? If someon is GOD, before and after, was there really any sacrifice?
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Matt's transition into a Bond villain is nearing completion.
Bahahahaa
Er, why the eye patch?
@@freeaccount6770 he went into it a bit during the last AxP. Severe double vision, unknown cause, scheduled for MRI.
@@ArKritz84 I sincerely hope he's ok.
@@freeaccount6770 Same. I know there's no point in speculating, but I am slightly worried.
"Jesus had a terrible weekend for your sins." - New bumper sticker.
More like a day and a half
Yea lmao
I would totally get that
The craziest idea about justice is to "punish" an innocent person for someone else's guilt.
Happens to every innocent driver. When guilty people drive drunk and cause claims, it makes all of our premiums go up.
The craziest idea is believing that Jesus was a real person rather than fictional Roman propaganda against Jews. Jews are hated in the Gospels and Jesus wants to destroy them all, because he is based on Titus Flavius.
@@theboombody You don't seem to understand what a punishment is
Sounds like what’s going on in todays woke culture !
@@LukeSumIpsePatremTe Punishment, penalty, whatever. Most people usually consider it uncomfortable to pay more when they can otherwise pay less.
Remember kids: If you don't sin, Jesus would have had an awful weekend in vain.
Jesus didn't sacrifice himself for our sins, he let himself be torture-porned to death to give priests the ability to cleanse a supine individual of the stain of Original Sin.
People who claim they could have tolerated that awful weekend over the internet remind me of people who think they can take a UFC champion in a fight. Fun to say, but never to be taken seriously.
@@theboombody I think there are quite a lot of religious hysterics who put themselves though some pretty grim physical torture as part of their atonement. I did a little bit myself when young and frighteningly stupid. Lucky to have lived to be elderly ( and eventually liberated 😁)
@@jackieking1522 The worst torture is knowing you're causing harm and being unable to stop. That's the way people who steal to buy heroin feel. Particularly when they realize their participation in that market fuels a lot of other immoral trades like human trafficking.
I'd love to hear from someone who went a whole day without sinning. The ultimate in deception.
" What did Jesus sacrifice?"
According to the Bible story, he sacrificed his weekend. If anyone tells me he died for our sins I tell them to finish the book, he gets better.
I'm about to sacrifice my weekend (as I do every week) working. Would like to do other things though but yeah it's something.
Well, to be fair, he was horrifically tortured to death, and then the weekend he was temporarily dead was probably spent in Hell. Even if it's not permanent death, I'd still say that's a pretty heavy sacrifice for anyone to make.
@@AbandonedVoid "Even if it's not permanent death, I'd still say that's a pretty heavy sacrifice for anyone to make."
Not as heavy a sacrifice as the god Prometheus paid when he stole the secret of fire form the other gods and gave it to we humans to make our life easier.
He was chained to a rock & sentenced to an eternity of having his liver slowly eaten out of him while he was alive. This would take place during the day, then the large bird would fly off & his liver would grow back overnight so it could be eaten out of him again the next day, and so on, and so on...
And while there is only the same amount of evidence ( zero) for this story as there is for the story of Jesus' temporary death and resurrection, we DO have fire and the god Prometheus won't punish us for not believing in him.
"Finish the book, he gets better." I like it, thank you. And yes, he sacrificed a weekend. Some say he sacrificed his humanity, the human he was dead, but that was just taken on for three decades. Some say he became God on the resurrection, and if he was still himself that's hardly sacrifice or even expensive. The Prometheus tale now is horrifying. I've known people to take extreme risks for others, some making that ultimate sacrifice, and pets as well; I've heard of more and seen videos or read of more and know there are many I'll never learn of, and I "believe" in these.
@@kathryngeeslin9509 Prometheus does eventually get freed by Hercules, but not until a thousand years after being chained to the rock.
There are people all over the world who suffer that much every day. These are often children and the suffering comes at the hands of their parents. Seems infinitely worse than what Jesus supposedly went through.
Matt "You can't even turn on a porn video without seeing someone wearing a cross. Jesus!" 😂
Yes...watching metal bands with Satanic vibes sporting crosses...odd.
Yea that's pretty funny that it's true.
Female pornstar: "I believe in Jesgrfgurggle, oh its so big, omg, erf."
@@DJ-73 Lol!
Jesus: "Did you do give him [Matt] the sign of double vision?"
God: "Yeah, he just went to the doctors for a diagnosis and now he has an eyepatch to fix it."
Jesus: "Man, this guy is _tough!_ I don't know what else we can do to convince him we're real..."
God: "What if you appeared on a tortilla?"
Jeffrey from darkmatter2525: umm.... god... cant you just... i dunno... appear on his show or something? Talk to people... you know...
@@hakureikura9052 "Jeffery, I can't take time out of my day to appear on this unbeliever's show, I'm God. I have more important things to be doing."
@@metroplexprime9901 like ending hunger, poverty, war, disease? Too bad "god" can't be bothered. 🤷🙄🤦
I can't help but feel Matt is missing a golden opportunity to rock a monacle
@@fantasypgatour or a parrot
Jesus gave up a weekend and now I’ve to give up eternity. Seems fair.
It was only a partial weekend. By early Sunday morning, they pretend he was already alive again.
It's fairly apparent to me that people to do not give their beliefs any serious critical examination.
I see the zealots god as a domestic abuser. "Love me or I punish you". "Stop making me punish you". "I'm killing this world because they don't worship me".
You get the idea.
@@jessicamerriman2336 "Look what you made me do again." Gives me the chills.
@@inyobill I'm sorry. I heard it one time too many myself, put him in the hospital, divorced and now have a good life.
Jesus didn't even give up the whole weekend. He was up by sunrise on Sunday. He literally could have gone out for brunch afterwards.
Pp
I missed that years Passover Party
Hi, Jesus. Good to see you!
😂😂😂😂
Jesus can you save me?:)
As long as you don't miss your birthday party, it's okay.
Thank you Jesus! Very cool!
I was raised as an LDS. The idea that Jesus suffered more than anyone else to save us was one of the things I questioned when I was young. Pictures I saw often show him on Golgotha with the two thieves, and it is always him being nailed to the cross but the thieves are only tied to their crosses. The crucifixion was no different for Jesus than any other person crucified by the Romans. All three would have been nailed. I asked about that and was told that the sacrifice came in the Garden when God turned his back on Christ and withdrew his spirit. This total withdrawal caused such agony that he bled from every pore. The LDS believe that there are three separate members of the Godhead, God, Son, and Holy Ghost. It was only after his physical death and after he had fulfilled his part of God's plan that he became fully God. I know that this will sound strange to many but LDS teaching seems no stranger to me than any other religion. I have been an atheist for about 30 years now because I finally took a good look at what I believed and what the stories are that I was told and none of it makes sense, no matter which religion you are following. It is all magical thinking and you must accept too much of the story on faith, even when it makes no sense. God makes the rules, we have to accept him and his rules on faith, if we break a rule and do not accept him and repent for breaking the rule, we will be punished forever? When your child lies, steals, or breaks a rule, do you never forgive him but hold that against him for the rest of his life? No, that would be child abuse and it would make you a very unloving and unreasonable parent, wouldn't it?
God works in mysterious ways. ;)
@@pansepot1490 True. See: Jim Jeffries
It's such an odd concept too if you think about it. He made humanity, so you must obey and worship him, and dedicate your life to him. On the surface that makes sense, but only if you don't think about it. Our parents literally made us. And they were a very big presence in our life and shaping of us, for most of us. Yet we give those nowhere near such loyalty and reverence. We certainly do not let them dictate our whole lives according to their plan.
@@BattleF08 it comes from a patriarchal mentality, it was common in ancient times. God is an elevated father figure. I mean, he is literally called the Father so this is not really speculation on my part
Nailed it.
I've been thinking about this a lot too. I've a few thoughts to add/repeat:
- A sacrifice implies that you've given up something of value and you don't get it back (as you said)
- If you give up something to get it back later, that's often called borrowing (or just storing something away if no other person is involved).
- Jesus lost nothing. He is in possession of everything he had before he came to Earth, everything he had during his stay on earth, and everything he had in heaven, he still has now.
- Jesus can return to Earth at any moment ("no one knows when the rapture will come") and could even come back in stealth without us knowing.
- Depending on Judaism or Christianity, people before the crucifixion could go to hell or heaven.
- After the crucifixion, people can STILL go to heaven or hell.
- The only change was the Terms and Conditions.
Even if Christianity was always this situation where Jesus has taken our place in Hell for eternity, and we all automatically go to Heaven, it still stands that we question why that happen in the first place when someone who 1) sets the rules, 2) can change the rules at any time, has set this situation up at all.
I'm also confused why Christians want to avoid Hell. Isn't it in your interests as a Christian to spread the word of Christ to those who need it most? To go to the people who need salvation and to bring it to them? If you've decided that Hell is it, there's no redemption for you, then doesn't that say a lot about your moral compass as a Christian?
Jesus endured his hanging on the cross voluntarily. But THAT wasn't the sacrifice.
His sacrifice was beforehand in the Garden of Gethsemane where he bled from every pore on account of his suffering for taking on the pain of sin for all creation.
@@scotthullinger4684only for a weekend
@@scotthullinger4684now what did he go and do that for? Seems like a bad idea.
@@j8000 - If it's for our benefit, and if it's on account of love, then it matters. The son of God subjugated himself to be like us in order to experience for himself what we experience. He was Godlike before birth, then was born like us all. His
sacrifice was not on the cross, but was accomplished previously in the Garden of Gethsemane, where he bled from every pore upon experiencing the pain of sin for all mankind simultaneously, suffering both body and spirit.
Well said. If I knew being tortured for a day and dead for a day and a half would allow me to have an eternal afterlife in bliss, there’s no thinking. Not only that, but Jesus becomes ruler of the universe with his dad? Losing nothing means no sacrifice.
Jesus was God. He knew everything; he created everything. He was just playing when he supposedly suffered on the cross.
Wow your fn incredible dude !@@MrRezillo
=!!@@mannysspumps9924 Oh, you're too kind, too kind!
I mean, I don't know if I personally would volunteer to go through brutal torture even if it meant such a great reward but that's just me. I could certainly see how an all-powerful being could though.
@@Yorker1998 But if the all-powerful being created everything, created the torture, the torturers and all else, you could hardly call it torture, could you?
I feel like its important to mention, According to the gospels, he "KNEW" he was going to resurrect... to me this alone demerites the whole thing. Plus all that Matt has stated.
Some gospels he knew…. Others he cried out to his father “why have you forsaken me”? That implies he didn’t know. So maybe that’s more of a sacrifice?
@@KBosch-xp2ut Not really. It just shows "god" didn't believe in "god".
@@KBosch-xp2ut I think at that point Jesus as human was in such pain that he felt he was in over his head....
A sacrifice isn’t less of a sacrifice if someone knows they will come out better on the other side. Trauma doesn’t become non-trauma because a person recovers from it. Matt is an unlettered and witless fellow in this entire video.
@@keatsiannightingale2025 This is NONSENSE. This is the premise in "Groundhog's Day". If everything will just be fine tomorrow, today's suffering or death is MEANINGLESS, given that foreknowledge.
The suffering I’ve endured by having to live in a world that’s still so heavily influenced with religious nonsense is commensurate or greater than any suffering the Romans inflicted on Jesus
Right? 🥺 Ugh
Agreed. Let's all educated people to Christian faith carry da cross ✝️ of religious stupidity and magical war on reality. Thought transformers had it bad with war but now humanity. Megatron iz LORD
What suffering have you experienced is equal to crucifixion?
Well said. As an ex-Roman Catholic, I always wondered why it was a sacrifice if he knew he was going to come back. So many parts of the bible and its philosophy make no sense that by the time I had finished catechism, I knew in my heart that it was just a myth. There is a reason that the church doesn't want you to ask questions... it leads to a revelation and not the kind they like.
The entire purpose of religion imo is to act as a pacifier for people who can’t cope with reality and the things that come with it.
Which is why the concept of the afterlife is a MAJOR, if not the only component of most religions. Most people hate the idea of going to sleep and not waking up, it’s a really messed up and scary thought that nobody can really comprehend. So they turn to religion, where it has promises of eternal happiness and being with love ones, stuff like that, and even to me that concept seems way more appealing to me than lights out, but ay, death is a thing that every one who’s currently alive is going to have to face one day, no exceptions.
Religion is suspension of reality in favor of fantasy.
@@IchorIsSweet the entire purpose of religion is to control people. The promise of an afterlife is just the bait.
@@IchorIsSweet That's true but also it is about money.
Churches get a lot from tithes.
My mom gives about $100 a week, probably more now.
That was the checks I used to see years ago.
Did Jesus know he would be killed? What if he had not been killed? Could he have been the "Messiah" and stayed alive? Really, I guess all sinners owe Judas for their salvation....since he betrayed Jesus. Otherwise Jesus would have stayed alive, and he would not have died for our sins. right? The whole story has some major plot holes!
I always found Prometheus' sacrifice for humanity an infinitely more compelling myth than the bizarre nihilism underlying the story of Jesus.
When Prometheus and Odin hang out with Jesus they're very amused by his tale of the woes that befell him.
Yes, I agree with you about Prometheus. I think there was also an Egyptian God who sacrificed himself or herself oft humanity, but I could be wrong.
I think you have to put yourself into the mindset of a late antiquity proletarian class in order to understand the early Christians perspective. That's what most of them were, they were not the most educated people. They lived amid a swirl of many different religious cults and philosophies in the eastern Roman empire and its borders
@@john.premose while all of that is true they were also very aware that what happened to Jesus was nothing compared to what could have happened if the folks executing him actually wanted to make him suffer.
@@john.premose True enough. Slavery was still being widely practiced in the Roman Empire of that day. Christianity came along and offered pie in the sky to the downtrodden - and eternal damnation to those who didn't accept the new doctrine.
"My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"', sounds like a guy who believed his own BS and then figured it out too late.
well it certainly sounds like a guy who doesn't buy into the notion that he himself is God
It's actually a quote from Psalm 22, actually also talks (curiously) about dividing the victim's cloths among the killers. This occurred at the Cross as well.
So many of you miss the point.
He always called him father but by being the sacrificial lamb he had all sin on him, sin has separated us from God, so he didn't call him father but God...
@@GhostBearCommander and verse 16: "like a lion ... my hands and feet". I suppose that would be a reference to the Roman soldiers holding down his hands and feet to the wood so they can nail them fast. Of course Christian bibles have it as "they pierced my hands and feet".
@@Fallen-Saint "He was made sin for us." Well if Jesus got the standard Roman crucifixion then he was not only nailed to his cross but also fixed by it, penetrated by its "peg" (see Seneca Minor, Moral Epistles 101.10-14). This of course mimicked a certain "abomination" because he was compelled to push up on his legs but after a while his leg muscles would tire and he'd slump because he couldn't lock his knees.
I was so happy to see you'd made a video on this. I've never understood how this is supposed to make sense. And yet it's the most important story in the entire doctrine. Most fantasy books have better plots than the bible...
Agree. Well presented too
That’s because it’s one of the first
How ridiculous it is to make a TH-cam channel against God or those who believe in him, if it is true that God does not exist and that his followers believe a fantasy.
Do we see a TH-cam channel out there against the non-existent Superman or his fans?
I think that the atheist attacks God and his followers because they are very resentful people and they envy the religious because Christians, Jews and Muslims are the most prosperous people on the planet.
Why don't they also make a TH-cam channel against children of 2 or 3 years of age and their imaginary friends???, at least there they would be debating with people of the same intellectual level.
@@JorgeLopez.888. yes, we’re jealous, enjoy believing that 😆
@@IchorIsSweet I do, witnessing seek people get healed and changing lives from sadness to happiness and successes. !!!!!!!!+
When i was a kid, I accidentally broke a window in my house....I told my mother that my brother did it.....I forewarned my brother that my mother was gonna beat him for the window, but that he should act like Jesus and sacrifice himself for my sin......HE BEAT THE CRAP OUT OF ME!
Good!
Lol
That's funny!
That's FREAKING *FUNNY.*
Person A: I am going to sacrifice all my wealth. Every penny I have, I will give it up to the rest of the world! That is my sacrifice for you people!
Person B: Well that is very nice of you. That is a great sacrifice, sir. We will distribute your money and valuables among the poor and the down....."
Person A: ...BUT in 3 days time I will get it all back!
Person B .....Wait......what!?
😂😂😂😂😂 spilled my drink.
*3 decades
Jesus was murdered in his early 30’s. He gave up his glory for 3+ decades. That’s the biblical narrative. And he was mostly ignored, hated, and/or persecuted by the people he was sent to help.
Jesus sacrificed his weekend for our sins.
@@raneenah3240 for having a weekend, you need to have a monday till friday job.
Did not read anything about him having a job.
It could be he worked all those years at the carpentershop of Joseph, but walked out of it when he learned he was adopted.
@@kamion53 I mean yeah, if that's the definition of weekend you want to use. But saying weekend is a lot funnier than saying "jesus sacrificed three days for our sins"
If it makes you feel better apply the google definition.
"The period from friday evening to Sunday evening, especially regarded as a time of leisure"
Jesus sacrificed nothing, He was inconvenienced for a couple of weeks.
To be sacrificed would entail he actually remained dead.
History is full of real people who have sacrificed their lives for other people, a cause, a principle, an idea - and all those people did the act of sacrifice superior to the lamb of heaven ever did.
I condemn ritual human sacrifice, rape, and cannibalism; Christians literally worship them and their savior is a zombie (an undead corporeal revenant created through the reanimation of a corpse).
Ritual Human Sacrifice-
God sent one of his sons to be tortured and killed as a sacrificial offering (a practice adopted from Paganism).
Christians worship a father who sent one of his sons to be tortured and executed (and literally called it as a sacrifice) as part of a ritual intended to appease a god (in Christian theology, atonement refers to the forgiving or pardoning of sin through the death by crucifixion of Jesus).
John 3:16
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son."
1 John 4:10
"This is love; not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins."
Romans 8:32
"He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all."
1 Corinthians 5:7
"Christ our passover is sacrificed for us."
Romans 3:25
"God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement."
Romans 5:8
"But God showed his great love for us by sending Christ to die for us while we were still sinners."
Hebrews 10:10
"We are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."
~~~~~~~~~~~
Rape-
God raped ("overshadowed") Mary while she was engaged to Joseph and while God was married to Asherah, Aholah and Aholibah (who were sisters). God's sons also "ravished" human females and impregnated them.
God sent one of his representatives to tell Mary (who was between ages 12 and 14 at the time), that even though she was engaged to Joseph and frightened by the encounter, that God would impregnate her. A child cannot consent to pregnancy by an authority figure.
The Bible uses the word "overshadow", which is the Greek word, "επισκιάζω" (episkiazó). Some Christians interpret "overshadow" to mean that some sort of mystical cloud or divine wind hovered over Mary and then she became pregnant. But the literal translation of the word is, "to overshadow, to use influence upon by a looming presence (skiá)" and figuratively means "to invest with preternatural (extraordinary, exceeding what is normal) influence". So, the "overshadowing" was God using what the Bible describes as the "extraordinary" coercion of his greater power and status to dominate and overpower Mary's desires and will by forcing his own desire to force unwanted sexual contact from frightened Mary with the intent of impregnating her.
The word Mary uses to accept the command to be impregnated is "ginomai", which means "let it not be, far be it from, God forbid".
In Mary's praise and thanksgiving to God in Luke 1:48 she says, “God has lifted up his humble maidservant.” The Greek word for “humble” is the same one that the Septuagint (the old Greek version of the Hebrew Bible) uses to describe the rape of Dinah in Genesis and other incidents of sexual violation.
~~~~~~~~~~~
Cannibalism is an integral part of Christianity-
John 6:53
"Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever gnaws my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a difficult and harsh and offensive statement. Who can accept it?" From this time, many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him."
If you have evidence that the Bible figure known as Jesus existed, provide it.
However, it is an absolute fact that there is literally no contemporaneous evidence that Jesus ever existed.
Shouldn't we expect that if God was walking around for thirty years that the locals would have noticed?
Fun fact: none of the Gospel authors witnessed Jesus.
The Jesus story began in 48 AD with the first of the Pauline Epistles (which comprise nearly half of the New Testament books) when Paul realized the Daniel 9:25 prophesy of a messiah expired without fulfilling so he made one up decades later and set the story decades in the past to make the prophesy seem true.
The fulfillment of the Daniel 9:25 prophecy written in 444 BC was the test of the true messiah. By 48 AD it was known that the prophecy of a messiah coming in "seven weeks and threescore and two weeks" had not occurred on the prophesied date.
"Seven weeks and threescore and two weeks" is, 7 plus 60 plus 2 equals 69 total weeks. One prophetic week equals seven biblical years of 360 days (the Julian calendar was created centuries later), so 7 times 69 equals 483 total biblical years beginning with Artaxerxes' decree in 444 BC. Those 483 biblical years equal 173,880 days, or 476 Julian years. Therefore the Messiah would come and be "cut off" in AD 33. One prophetic week equaling seven Biblical years is something “Daniel” invented in about 165 BC, effectively an admission that Jeremiah 25:11-12 failed.
Paul made up the entire Jesus story and added historical figures, locations, and events to add authenticity.
Paul's goal was to garner support for the insurrection against the Romans which began in 46 AD led by two brothers, Jacob and Simon, in the Judea province. The revolt, mainly in the Galilee, began as sporadic insurgency until it climaxed in 48 AD when it was quickly put down by Roman authorities. Both Simon and Jacob were executed.
He created the fiction of having witnessed the risen messiah. He wanted to show that the messiah had come as prophesied but was murdered by the Romans. This was to entice the Gentiles to aid in the Jews' rebellion against the Romans.
Instead, he created one of the world's most popular religions that is based on the literal worship of ritual human sacrifice, rape, and cannibalism.
The Gospel authors copied, and embellished, Paul's fiction. None of the Gospel authors, or any other writers, were witnesses to the Bible figure known as Jesus.
He was inconvenienced for a few days. Christians way over exaggerate.
Yeah and they did that without being able to just make their own booze whenever they wanted
Sacrificing his son to wash away the sins of mankind? Who came up with this s##t? Is this the best solution that an almighty God can offer?
Marketers lol.
Not just the best solution, but the only solution.
@@trehcrap Yah, depressing, isn't it?
@@trehcrap Because god came up with it? It still makes no sense at all. Defending the bible is like defending a really bad written movie script because you want everything to make sense and you worship the director.
@@trehcrap Sure, the only solution available to an all powerful being that made the situation in the first place. Pull the other one mate, its got bells on it.
*The worst thing ever;* A "sincerely repentant believer" can be forgiven for anything, except disbelief.
How can _"simply not being convinced"_ of an ancient miracle story, (Jesus resurrection), be the worst thing a person could do?
And that _"not being convinced"_ is deserving of annihilation at best, or worse, eternal hellfire?
_Bizarre & Immoral_
Let's go a step further to illustrate your point: Under this moral framework, a serial child rapist/murderer could simply ask for forgiveness and be forgiven. Hitler himself could've asked for forgiveness from Jesus before he shot himself in the bunker. Yet a moral, upstanding person who has dedicated their life to public service, and wouldn't intentionally step on an ant let alone rape/murder, will receive annihilation/eternal hellfire, simply because they haven't seen convincing evidence to convince their logical mind of the divinity of Jesus.
@@mchevre Could not agree more.
I've made this comment to Christians before, (Worst thing ever), and always find it both sad & funny to see the level of "tap dancing" they do to make excuses for their immoral God.
Well said…. And if god is all knowing and all powerful and he created Lucifer and the devil why doesn’t he just uncreate them ??? I guess it doesn’t fit the made up story …. A story to control and manipulate the masses …. Right up til now ….. sad ass religion …
@@mchevre Is this actually true? I suppose it depends on the believer, but most of what I've read says pretty clearly that non-believers can be forgiven like any other sinner if they repent. If somebody dies while not believing then they obviously haven't repented, ergo there can be no "saved" non-believers, only former non-believers.
Same with suicide. All manner of violence can be forgiven if the perpetrator is truly repentant, but since suicide is by definition the last thing you do in your life, you do not have the chance to repent. Repenting in advance does not count -- if you apologize for something with the intent of doing it anyway, you aren't really sorry. (I assume survivors of failed suicide attempts get another chance.)
If Christians believed that some people were literally unsavable then they would not be trying to convert them.
@@JimboJamble *Not about morality, but belief.*
Yes, _"obviously"_ if you repent and become a believer you can be saved/forgiven.
But nowhere in the bible does it say that you don't have to believe in Jesus at all, to obtain salvation.
_This should be a no brainer, for any Christian._
If you watch the movies Edge of Tomorrow, Groundhog Day and the TV show Russian Doll it becomes very clear that to anyone who knows that their death is not final it becomes very easy to give up their life. I agree that a sacrifice should actually be giving up of something, not a temporary withholding.
I heard for so long in the church that I was nothing without Jesus, I don't know if I will ever really be able to fully recover. I've made progress, but the shame the church makes is some of the most powerful shame on the planet.
It gets easier and easier with time.
@@flanderg123 if your dogma is indistinguishable from a cult, how can you tell the difference.
It’s just a form of control.
I don't know if this helps, but once I let go of the idea of eternal life, I realised that the full scope of my impact, and risk, is limited to the people I interact with.
I found the idea that I don't matter nearly as much as they would have me believe, very freeing. It frees me up to find my own value.
@@flanderg123 easy, you give it to both and see which one wants it.
Your god doesn’t exist, he’s logically not consistent and there is no evidence.
I get what you're trying to say, but it is a bit funny to use fictional movies to prove a point about how people in real life feel about their lives.
The resurrection is just Passover reversed.
Instead of sacrificing an animal every single year, why not sacrifice a god? That would last forever, instead of just one year.
Yeah that is basically what is explicitly stated in the New Testament such as Hebrews
@@john.premose Yes, Jesus is the King of Glory! The Lamb who takes away the sin of the world.
@@paulgemme6056 Is that why jesus made NO EFFORT to give his message to "the world"?
Jesus didn't seem to care or try hard. He showed NO urgency alerting people about hell.
You have a messed-up view of "glory". He's a petty, whiny, bloodthristy monster who will torture those who do not worship him. He's hardly glorious.
@@paulgemme6056 So either the world is without sin or jesus is a total failure
@@TheD4VR0S [checks] still seems to be a lot of sin...
Even as a child I never understood what Jesus sacrificed but everyone around me made such a big deal about it. I figured as I got older I’d understand it. 50 years later every Christian I’ve ever met has failed to make it make sense
Christians do not understand it either. They are just believing, as good boys and girls and being obedient.
The story is a metaphor connecting us to our tribal instincts. I think most Christians on a subconscious level sense that the story is about people owing allegiance to their tribe AKA Christianity. It is a guilt trip for bonding with and submitting to the Christian tribe AKA the church. Christianity is largely a covert religion.
I find Odin's sacrifice more compelling. He gave up an eye for knowledge. He hanged himself from the World Tree for nine days and literally walked the fine line between life and death in order to learn the secrets of the universe (the runes). Not only has Odin made more sacrifices then Jesus, but he actually sacrificed something, as he never got back his eye.
What about Prometheus? Stole fire from the gods and gave it to mankind, sentenced to be eaten alive every day for the rest of eternity.
@@darrennew8211 I mean, he was punished, but what did he sacrifice?
@@Lupinemancer87 His life and afterlife and happiness? I mean, if you don't think accepting eternal torture in return for helping people who don't know you counts as "sacrifice" I guess that would be a reasonable question.
@@darrennew8211 Prometheus was a Titan and so immortal, so he didnt technically sacrifice his afterlife, but he did sacrifice pretty much everything else. He was freed later by Heracles, but he had no idea that would happen and regardless, it was a LOT longer than just the three days Jebus was dead. And a lot more agonizing.
@@darrennew8211 He is a titan, so he's immortal so he didn't "give up" his afterlife since he can't die in the first place. And it's not like he willingly gave up his happiness, it was taken from him as part of his punishment. He didn't choose to sacrifice it.
To the point of the deity loving the smell of burning meat--we very artfully avoid calling that deity the old school name: "The Lord of Armies." Modern Christians elide this by using the more obscure term "Lord of Hosts" and but hosts is just an archaic term for armies. Modern Christians confronted with that just try to make it mean "angelic" armies, but it's pretty clear what the texts mean.
He was a war god, one of many. Once you just say that out loud so much more makes sense.
Yeah, most of his interactions with Humanity is killing them, threatening to kill them, or sending other people to kill them. I'm not sure where the love and mercy part is supposed to come in. I guess with Jesus, but then they insist Jesus is the same person as the old testament god that had someone killed for picking up sticks on the wrong day of the week. If you read the bible from a neutral perspective, and not from one of a worshiper, it's messed up. Just some of my most pious family members claim to read it cover to cover all the time.
I'm not sure I ever dwelled on the meaning of "Lord of Hosts." Thanks for the share! Cheers.
My churches literature uses that all the time. It's not secret, it's all throughout the Bible. Jesus even states that Yahweh could send an army for Jesus if he wanted. Not sure why this is an issue. But you're missing the important factor that "Yahweh tsvaot" is a name that shows Yahweh's intent to manifest in a multitude:
1 Corinthians 15:28 (NASB95) When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.
Subjected like to a King. Kings have armies. Yahweh will be "all in all", so WE will be part of His "host".
Have to admit. I like the smell of a good steak on the grill also.
@@lizzard13666 You have absolutely no evidence for the claim that we will be part of any god's army.
I think the more pertinent question is; what did Yahweh sacrifice?
Ask any Christian where Jesus Christ is, and they will tell you he is sitting at the right hand of God. So the very famous and oft promoted John 3:16 isn't true at all.
I'm not sure I fully agree with Matt on this one. I think enduring pain for someone is a sacrifice. And sure, it was only a sacrifice to pay a price he had set himself, for rules he set himself, if he was fully God. And it's a price tons of people would pay to save countless people from infinite torment. Even if God's logic doesn't add up, you could still argue he himself was convinced it was required, and thus a sacrifice.
@@BattleF08 Okay it was a "sacrifice" just not a very good one in the grand scheme of things which is eternity in heaven at the end of the day (or weekend rather).
@@Yorker1998 Yeah, it was not a sacrifice that makes sense. But, honestly neither do the concepts of blood sacrifice and substitutional atonement.
I've also heard a lot of Christians phrase this as Jesus paying the price for my sins, but the appropriate price for my sins is apparently eternity of the greatest suffering in hell. If that's what Jesus was doing in my stead, then yeah, that would be one hell of a sacrifice.
Not that I would accept anyone real to pay for my wrongdoing in my stead normally. I might in this case, but only because the concept of sin doesn't make sense. People, I can do wrongs to that you could easily argue deserve justice, remorse or satisfaction from me for my actions. But I can't do anything to harm something all-powerful, besides hurt its ego or feelings. The latter could be worth apologizing for, even if done in ignorance. But not ego. Anything requiring praise and worship is not worthy of it, and is not your friend. Especially given the punishment for not doing so. And the horror show, both in old and new testament, required for them to forgive you.
@@BattleF08
Humans know what pain is. Gods can only cosplay at it. Jesus crucifixion is at most like a sadomasochist getting off on the ordeal.
If someone really insists it was a sacrifice then it was a pittance of one, equivalent to a paper cut on a finger tip. Seconds of suprise pain and annoyance,. Not much more.
Re: enduring (or experiencing) pain: it really depends on who's doing the enduring. To a worm, an ant bite is probably a massive deal. But to a human? I don't think so.
If you can basically forget about the pain after a short while I would call it an inconvenience, not a sacrifice.
How much pain could a bad weekend possibly do to a timeless, all-powerful being?
This just sparked a realization for me. Christians will say, "God can't do something against logic. He can't make a married bachelor", YET somehow Jesus can be 100% human and 100% God?
Just another hole in the "holey" book.
When cornered on contradictions the last resort excuse is “god works in mysterious ways” and “god is unknowable”. Yet, despite this acknowledged fundamental inability of humans to read god’s mind, most Christians seem to know perfectly who god will send to hell, what god thinks about sex, and even what party god wants you to vote for.
200% of zero is zero anyway.
There's one way that can be logically possible, but most Christians won't like it.
What Christian ever said God can't do something against logic? I never said that.
@@theboombody it's a proposed solution for the omnipotence paradox; th-cam.com/video/MFwOy-RDkLI/w-d-xo.html
I was born Roman Catholic. I was told that God the Father refused burnt offerings of lamb. Exodus 29.12-46. Later, he demanded the flesh and blood of his only son. I believed this whole heartedly; till I got out of the cult; at the cage of 17. I give thanks to Bertrand Russell's " Why I am not a Christian "
Something I've heard apologists say is our suffering on earth is going to be meaningless if we spend an eternity in heaven. They often site this as a retort for the problem of evil/suffering. That it's fine little kids get cancer and people suffer from hunger and war and what have you. It's not going to matter, because they will spend eternity in bliss, frolicking with god as I heard one apologist put it. That our time on earth is just a short blip compared to eternity, so no suffering will matter in the end. It can help build character and whatnot.
But then, when it comes to Jesus's "sacrifice," they seem to throw that apologetic out the window. Now, we have to be impressed that an eternal being who's been around forever suffered for our sake for a few, short moments compared to all of eternity. On the one hand, suffering is nothing. But with Jesus, you have to focus on his suffering. It contradicts. And like you said, what did he even sacrifice? There's some scripture that indicates he seemed to know he would raise from the dead and that he's "seated at the right hand of god." What did he give up? Nothing.
Hey, our sacrifices count too. 1st Corinthians hints that humans will rank higher than angels in heaven due to their sacrifices. I believe Jesus's crucifixion is considered more intense because it bore more spiritual weight than physical weight. Spiritual pain can hurt a lot. Ever seen someone with a broken spirit? I have. It's not pretty.
@@theboombody I don't even think humans have spirits anymore. Or souls. What does that even mean? Because I heard that all while growing up in church. But, what does it even mean for something to "spiritually hurt?"
Are you just referring to emotions? I've had depression and was suicidal when I was a Christian. Does that counts as a "broken spirit?" Because that can be explained psychologically.
Btw, I was suicidal because I wanted to go to my "true home" when I died. So, Christianity played a big role in my depression. Also gave me low self esteem, due to the teaching that all humans are evil and sinful and whatnot. So, take that for what you will.
@@JoyfulArtist21 Depression and suicidal thoughts are definitely evidence of a broken spirit. Religion may or may not be the path to restoring a broken spirit though. Same with psychology. If either one of those things always worked to restore a broken spirits then we'd have very few broken spirits out there now, and that darn sure isn't the case.
I think a good tangible way spirit is evidenced is through an athletic competition. Two people with similar attributes of strength, endurance, speed, mental capacity, etc. But one has just that extra something and is able to outperform the other. That's spirit right there. It's more than just adrenaline or emotion. It's desire and heart. Kind of like charisma. Impossible to measure, but some people just have it.
@@JoyfulArtist21 Excellent analysis
Jesus had already lived an infinte number of years before he came to earth... according to the Bible, God never had a beginning but has always been. So the 30 years he did spend here was less than 0.00% of time he had already experienced. 30 years is meaningless when you've infinitely existed.
33 1/2 years
Not 30
@@sauloftarsus3351 that makes all the difference........ now it is 33 1/3 of infinity, or still 0.000000000%
This is such a great point. A sacrifice is when something that you have ceases to exist forever. You don't get it back. Jesus came back 3 days later. All planned out too. Makes no sense at all.
I am afraid that we will never know the actual facts of this case. It only makes good emotive story to trap people into belief.
First thing I thought of when seeing Matt’s eyepatch was Odin sacrificing his eye in order to gain knowledge of other worlds and to understand runes. Now, if Odin’s eye were to grow back, that would be like the sacrifice of Jesus. At least Norse mythology is somewhat internally consistent.
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I recently argued with someone that there isn't a reason to value god, as value can be derived from scarcity. If god has unlimited potential to forgive sins without being reduced in his righteousness, than there is no legitimate price I ought to pay to have it. I likened it to an infinite loaf of bread. If a person breaks a piece off, the original loaf is the same size. Nothing can be stolen, as nothing can be lost. Any price for the bread would be arbitrary.
Wouldn't the same hold true for receiving grace in order to be saved?
Or not set up a situation in which we need to be saved in the first place.
That puts a whole new meaning on "the economy of salvation"
There are infinite reasons to value God/Jesus Christ and not only to value him but to worship him in spirit and in true. The enemy just keeps unbelievers blind to those reasons. But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, whose minds the god (the devil - Satan) of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your bondservants for Jesus’ sake. For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
@@paulgemme6056 In court, if a person offers testimony because of the threat of reward/punishment it is seen as coerced and not valid. The only reasons I have received to offer testimony to god for his grace (or to worship) is because I will receive reward/punishment.
Apart from coercion, what reasons do I have to value god?
@@trentlytle7289 I can think of two good reasons right of the bat. The lungs he has given you and the air to breathe. They both can be taken away from you in the blink of an eye.
I don't find this "sacrifice" impressive at all, almost any parent would go through that or worse to save thier child knowing they wouldn't be resurrected.
As a kid in Sunday School, I always thought Jesus would have been much more impressive if he couldn't be killed.
If jesus flew from town to town instead of a donkey, pretty sure everybody would be converted in a snap...
@@hakureikura9052 yep. Like I always say: Jesus didn't try very hard and didn't seem to care. He showed no urgency with his important message or alerting everyone about hell
I had totally forgotten about that part of the story, let this cup pass from me. What a glaringly obvious admission that he is not actually God.
So if Jesus died for our sins then why do we still have to be baptized and have to go to confession?? It’s stupid ….
@Matt, please be well. Speedy recovery & good health!
If I understand Matt's point correctly the argument is essentially that Christ didn't truly sacrifice anything because there was nothing to risk or gain. Christ had everything being one with God before time and after it's creation. He spent 33 years on earth, which compared to eternity is nothing. Sure he died, but he gets his life back a short 3 days later. He had everything. Gave it up for 33 years and then got it all back. No real risk. No real loss. No real sacrifice.
A real sacrifice would be a soldier who goes to war to fight for his country. He is risking his life. The only one he has. Once he gives his life he cannot get it back. No matter the outcome of the war he will not return. It is a sacrifice because once the price is paid there is no refund. There is a real risk. There is a real loss. This is what sacrifice actually looks like.
How ridiculous it is to make a TH-cam channel against God or those who believe in him, if it is true that God does not exist and that his followers believe a fantasy.
Do we see a TH-cam channel out there against the non-existent Superman or his fans?
I think that the atheist attacks God and his followers because they are very resentful people and they envy the religious because Christians, Jews and Muslims are the most prosperous people on the planet.
Why don't they also make a TH-cam channel against children of 2 or 3 years of age and their imaginary friends???, at least there they would be debating with people of the same intellectual level.
@MalcolmAmin The bear analogy is a contrast. It contrasts an actual sacrifice that can be found in nature to the non-sacrifice of Jesus in the Gospels.
Matt's point was to demonstrate that Jesus didn't really sacrifice anything. Nothing of value was lost and afterwards nothing actually changed. Where as in the bear example the first cub dies, (Something of value lost) But the other 2 cubs will live to become the next generation of bears. (Something of value was gained.) This is what an actual sacrifice looks like in contrast with the non sacrifice of Christ.
@MalcolmAmin That's a fair critique. I hadn't thought of that. I'll have to rethink the analogy.
@MalcolmAmin Yeah, I think the analogy still works, but if someone wanted to argue over semantics they could point that out. Overall I think the point has been made though.
It's interesting because when I was a Christian it never crossed my mind to question what sacrifice if any Jesus actually made.
@@aprilmay1700 Yes, sometimes all 3 cubs live and sometimes they all die. Just because it doesn't happen 100% of the time doesn't mean it's made up. I never said the mother "must" lose 1 cub I simply stated that it can happen. Nature doesn't say anything because nature isn't a conscious being. Nature is simply the collective phenomena of the physical world. I have already conceded that my analogy wasn't the best so I'm not sure what you're going on about.
"Jesus Christ,
Jesus Christ.
Who are you??
What have you sacrificed??"
Alright, Sir Webber and Mr. Rice......your royalty checks will be in the mail.
As an atheist I must say... I love the play (and have seen a half dozen versions live) and especially the movie, which I rewatch regularly.
Jesus' sacrifice was the equivalent of a royal slumming it for a day (in cosmic terms) so he could claim to be in touch with the common people. The "My God why have you forsaken me" line is pure diva. Dude needs to check his privilege.
Aren't sacrifices made by someone to atone for their sins? Humanity didn't chose to sacrifice Jesus for our sins, God did. If God was the one doing the sacrifice how does that atone for us? Wouldn't that mean God is atoning for something? Who was God sacrificing to? How does sacrificing to yourself accomplish anything? Couldn't he had just done it a different way? So many things about this just don't make sense.
This is what atheists don't understand. Youasked if He could of done it another way. the answer is no.
@@trehcrap if he makes the rules, why is blood magic the only solution?
@@shadowshedinja6124 This would take hours of prep and several lessons, but i will give you a quick reason why this is the only way.
First it is not magic blood but the real blood that flowed from Christ on the cross
2. Remember sin is serious and we are told the wages of sin is death.
3. In the OT God spared His people the death penalty for the sins they committed. Both spiritual and physical death. but there had to be payment for sin , thus the payment was to pay with the sacrifice of a possession. ex. an unblemished lamb.
4 This gave them forgiveness but it had to be repeated regularly, but it did foreshadow of the once and final sacrifice of christ on the cross.
5. This gets to why it had to be both divine and human. Jesus had to be true God to be a perfect sacrifice and had to be true man to pay the price in our stead . We could not pay we are not perfect, but sinners
6. God demanded payment and the only way for a sacrifice to be suffice was to do it Himself and it had to be Himself.
7. Conclusion--it had to be that way. Christ is the Lamb of God Who takes away the sin of the world
Again it would take hours to really flush out all to be learned about the atonement offered by Our Lord. o please ask questions for clarification. Thanks
@@trehcrap Woosh. His question seemed to fly right over your head, lol.
@@djb6496 Did you actually read my reply? What about it can i help you understand. Please i am tired of the Junior High insults. If you want to talk about the atonement in Christ, please ask, but leave the nonsense for your pals at school
My questioning goes beyond that . My questioning is : why was a sacrifice necessary for an all powerful being to forgive someone ?
Cuz jewish blood magic loophole idek.
I grew up a Christian
I was NEVER made to feel so awful
Could that be because you didn't fully understand the implications of what was being claimed?
Compare this fictional story to John 3:16:
My neighbor cut a branch off a tree in his yard that fell and did some damage to my shed. He came over to apologize, but I wouldn't accept his apology. I gave him a puppy and told him he had to torture and kill it and then smear the blood on my shed, then I'd accept the apology.
killing a third party for the crime committed aby a first party against a second, makes no sense , from a legal standpoint. it's primitive, savage, irrational, makes zero fucking sense. and yet this is the center ecumenical philosophy of the religion. ugh...
That's sick..I love puppies.
@@susanatkinson3978 So is the story around John 3:16.
@@evilbob840 Yes.
@@evilbob840 Excellent analysis
"Jesus died for your sins!" -did he come back to life for my sins too?
He was supposed to “be right back” within a generation, but I guess the whole - come back from being dead - thing is harder that it seems.
😂
This thing about sin worries me. How can you be born a sinner? Again, this is just a way to control the masses by the clergy.
@@cynic150 Exactly! But, just to labour a point, if Jesus supposedly died for our sins, how can we be born in sin???
@@chrisantoniou4366 Jesus was put to death because he was a threat to the religious clerics of the day. It was political. I think that the bit about dying for our sins was just invented by priests to boost the numbers of believers. I do not think that any sane person would believe that his sins were forgiven by someone dying.
I’ve always thought “ Jesus couldn’t have been the only innocent man to have been crucified “
Jesus wasn't innocent, though. He was crucified for blasphemy and he was 100% guilty, according to Mosaic Law, which was the law of the land at the time.
edit - assuming that the fairy stories are true, of course.
@@Raz.C Let's not dwell on details. We know what is meant by innocent. We wouldn't torture a man for being blasphemer today or would we? Well, some people might but that's not the point...
@@andyhx2 Unfortunately a LOT of people would, and that IS the point. Never has there been a truer statement than "there is no hate like christian love"!
@@Raz.C Quite so. Jesus was (rightly or wrongly, fairly or unfairly) executed for his crimes.
I guess he gave up his state of invulnerability to experience the pain of human life... but seriously... only for a weekend? We humans have to endure it all our lives. And he is only experiencing the "shitty" existence, and suffering HE created for us. Why, and for what?
Thanks for coming to roll around in the dirt with your creations for a bit. It did nothing and sacrificed nothing.
@@bcaskanette And flooding the Earth and drowning millions of kids and billions of animals really took care of that pesky 'sin' problem too.
@@GuitarDog_atx what a great God!!! Hallelujah!!!! 🙌🙏lol
From what I understand, he never _"gave up his state of invulnerability..."_ Jesus *never* ceased bing God. As long as he's God, he has all the authority, power, and resources that come with being God - that's what makes him God. Unlike mortals, Jesus never had to worry about anything ever happening to him.
@@nuttysquirrel8816 He gave up his ability to not be murdered lol. He chose to feel pain and experience being killed for the weekend. That's what I mean by invulnerability. Sure, if he wanted to he could have popped off that cross or chosen to feel no pain. But according to the story that's not what happened.
To quote Patty Smith, "Jesus died for somebody’s sins, but he didn’t die for mine."
Calvinist doctrine of limited atonement, right there...
@@DrewClark-ov5up No, Patty Smith.
Great stuff Matt!
... and what's more...
Think about being a God and being commanded by Daddy God ("He gave his only begotten son..") to grow a human overcoat in order to feel the pain of living uncomfortably and in poverty at the bottom of a gravity well for 33 years at the end of which the overcoat has a rough weekend and is killed. Would you consider that human overcoat as a valuable asset or as a near intolerable burden? Once the overcoat is dead, would you not exclaim something of the form "Thank God for that!" and rejoice in being rid of it?
So the death of the overcoat wasn't only not a sacrifice, it was also a very significant benefit, "a consummation devoutly to be wished".
Then there's the Currency Question formulated as follows:
THE CURRENCY QUESTION: Under what circumstances can the suffering and death of a human overcoat be used as currency in the payment of a debt?
The Biblical answer to that is "God enjoys the suffering of others so the experience is therefore of value to him."
Wow, I was just thinking about this non sacrifice this summer and it is interesting to hear Matt saying pretty much what I found except in more detail. I'm glad I am not the only one to have this question.
The contradiction i find interesting is that Jesus came to earth with a mission from God to die yet the scribes and pharisees and Judas who facilitated his death are considered bad.
At that time, society was in a big moral dilema like right now and Jesús explained life in a way people was fulfilled.
Thank you 🙏 Matt Dillahunty for your service to humanity, your work is indispensable to our progress! You’re a hero for humanity!!!
I mean... he's not saying anything that hasn't been said for the last 300 years at least. Hardly groundbreaking
@@john.premose copy, I feel it’s groundbreaking because it needs to be said, right now, it’s important, so despite the logic having been said for however many years, it’s still not enough given the amount of irrational beliefs out there in the 21st century. Thanks for your take and for reading.
@@skepticsinister While all those irrational beliefs were going strong, western civilization was still able to build airplanes in the early 1900's and rockets and space shuttles in the 50's and 60's. I don't think those beliefs have impeded progress too much.
@@theboombody those beliefs were long gone by the 1900s, indeed they were gone by the 1700s. Most people who follow religion since the 1700s are basically just pretending. I would argue they were mostly pretending before that too
@@john.premose Well your argument doesn't match the evidence. Church attendance was high as heck in western civilization during that time. Unless your intuition is somehow greater than the actual numbers. But I figured most atheists prized numerical evidence far more than feelings and intuition.
If Jesus died around 30, he had already lived longer than the average person, so he really didn't have a longer than normal life ahead of him. SO, if someone claims he gave up being human longer, you gotta address that. But what's better: being human until you're 100, or being in heaven forever? No sacrifice.
That young average age is because of the high infant mortality rate. People did live well into their 40s and 50s judging by found bones of the era.
I get the point but people in Jesus' day did live past 30....when we say 'life expectancy rate during Old Stone Age was about 35 for men and less for women' we are factoring in the 50% of all children who died by the age of 7...at the time of Jesus, most people in most parts of the Roman Empire lived long past 30--provided you survived childhood! This was true even during the Middle Ages...
Matt, thankyou for posting these. I love the in depth bites like this. 👍🌊💙💙💙🌊🥰✌
I enjoy your commentary on religion, I have been an atheist for decades, I could never understand why so many people believed in that nonsense, for one thing that book was not written very well, lots of crazy shit.
If I pay for my sins, it will be for all eternity.
But if Jesus pays for my sins, it will be a 3 day event?
What kind of faulty scale did God use to balance that one out?
This has always been one of my biggest qualms with Christianity.
It was no sacrifice at all. It’s just a big takeout.
It was just a rough few hours and a ~36 hour nap.
Biblically, the sacrifice is that he gave up his glory in heaven, became an inferior creature in a world dominated by his chief enemy in order to help people that would largely ignore and even persecute him. He was then tortured and falsely of the worst possible crime, before being murdered.
Maybe imagine if you were the untouchable, powerful, wealthy son of the greatest ruler on the planet. Would you be willing to give up your position to spend decades living as a commoner under the rule of someone that hates you for decades? Your goal would be to help his citizens, who you know would mostly reject you and ultimately torture me kill you. Now, your father has a means to bring you back to life at the end, so you’d have to trust him to do so. Would that not be a sacrifice?
@@FakingANerve At one point he went 30 or 40 days without water also. I think without supernatural assistance we can only go three days.
@@heyalun If you get to live forever afterwards, it's not a sacrifice. A few decades is microscopic in comparison to eternity. According to Christians Jesus and his father are the same being, so him worrying about bringing himself back to life is just silly.The entire premise of Christianity is built on a sacrifice that never happened. You can't sacrifice your life if you're immortal.
@@theboombody What evidence is there that he went that long without water or that he even existed?
Gotta say, the eye patch looks kinda badass.
Finally someone else making comment about the mock sacrifice.
I couldn't agree more. I also would say that the idea that this is such an amazing sacrifice....to save the world?? We know of individuals that sacrifice themselves for REAL to save a child, to save a combat buddy, to save a total stranger. That is sacrifice that should be celebrated.
Regular people are much closer to superheroes than we realize. But I would still consider Jesus to be the best of the bunch.
@@theboombody As you wish.
The point of the sacrifice is to get members of the church to submit to the will of God AKA the church. It is a metaphor about bonding to a tribal identity AKA bonding to a religion.
I'd say that anyone who has suffered a permanent injury trying to help someone else has sacrificed more for humanity than Jesus did. What exactly did Jesus loose up on the cross? He lost a day and a half being dead, but afterwards he gets to be God again for the rest of eternity without end. As Pascal once said, the finite is obliterated in face of the infinite, so again, what did Jesus loose? A day and a half out of an infinity? That isn't loss, since he still has infinity after that.
YES! THIS!
I was a 27 year Paramedic/Firefighter. Fractured my spine pulling a victim out of a house fire. I not only lost my job due to forced retirement, but my health the rest of my life. Fairy tale boy didn't lose anything
@@jessicamerriman2336 Thank you for the sacrifice you made, even if you may not have fully consented to it.
@@rodshop5897 Thanks. I consented for injury, and even death, when I signed the work contract. The risks were plainly explained and agree too. Jesus knew he would rise from the dead, if you believe the Bible. I took the risk to help others knowing I wouldn't be raised from the dead. I'm just not someone else who can stand by and watch others die.
I'm not a hero, role model or anything else. I took the job I was good at, where I could make a difference. 🙂
@@jessicamerriman2336 Thank you, for being you.
@@rodshop5897 nobody else would let me be them. 😁😁😁😁
I always thought that if Jesus was a "savior" who was truly sacrificed, he would have ended up in hell blocking the entrance on behalf of all the sinners.
He blocked a bunch of them, and they know it. When they left a life of drugs, they were already saved from a life of hell.
@@theboombody
The question was "what did Jesus sacrifice?" Unless Jesus is spending an eternity in hell on behalf of all the sinners then there was no sacrifice, only a temporary inconvenience.
@@Reno_Slim I guess unless it's eternal it has no meaning. Work on a marriage for 20 years no longer counts as a sacrifice. Just a temporary inconvenience.
@@theboombody Jesus's sacrifice would need to eternal if one's soul can be sentenced to Hell for all eternity. I'm just going by the rules that preportidly come from a preported eternal entity.
And if a twenty year marriage is considered a sacrifice then someone was clearly married to the wrong person.
@@Reno_Slim Right, someone who sacrifices to someone that unworthy is married to the wrong person. The Bible compares the church to a bride and Jesus to a groom. And it's very clear that the church is unfaithful to him. He's married to the wrong person. The Bible agrees with all of that. Over and over the Old Testament prophets talk about how God's people are completely unfaithful to him.
The idea of Jesus' vicarious suffering and substitutionary attonement for "our sins" is totally illogical. Of course none of Christian theology makes sense outside of the closed system of theology.
Be fair, almost all of it isn't even internally consistent.
Thank you for all that you do Matt!
How did his so called sacrifice translate to saving us?
No logic to it. That's what occurred to me as a 10yo catholic in Australia.
Except it doesn't save us... We have to believe in and worship god in order to be saved. Which kind of makes Jesus' (non) sacrifice irrelevant, no?
Hi Deb
(10 yr old catholic raised LDS ? okay) God did not abandon Jesus in the garden, that is a poor teaching at best. In the garden Jesus was suffering because his full human form was facing a sacrificial death. Jesus came to teach us "the way" and had to deliver that message and then suffer a human death. Now to the 10 year old catholic Jesus was a deity before birth, during his human life, and after his death ( same in the video) but to the LDS Jesus was human only while on earth
( repeated from your earlier post?)
This issue is a stacking of precepts which probably prevents a single answer for all, however the video is centered on a Christian Trinity. So using a Christian Trinity the sacrifices is the 'His personal humanity' So the general concept is a divine entity came to earth and assumed a human form, and then sacrificed that human form with full emotions as any other human. So Jesus had to live and die with all human desires but sacrifice much of the human pleasures as money, power, sex, and long life. Humans relate to the born to die young with suffering maybe too much. We have to be careful because the objective was not to suffer and die young, the objective was to "live by 3 commandments" One source for help with this is the general subject of Natural [Moral] Law
Those commandment were 1) love God, 2) Love your neighbor as yourself, and 3) Love each other as Jesus loved you
@@whatsup3270 Total garbage! If Jesus supposedly died for our sins, why are we supposedly still born in sin? All the mental gymnastics and "interpretations" of the bible will never make the contradictions go away.
Your video is extremely important! I found it because I was looking for someone who had come to the same conclusions as me and I am a Christian! A God who "dies"? A sacrifice that in the end left everything the same?
Death, to be a sacrifice, must produce effects for all eternity. A man can suffer this death, he can make this sacrifice, but a God, by definition, cannot remain dead except temporarily!
I believe that only the 2nd coming of Christ will shed light on this extremely important and complex issue.
Congratulations on your excellent work!!
If Jesus was himself God, while dying on the cross, why did he ask himself as his own father to forgive them? If everything was preordained He knew question was unneeded because he had the answer. A confusing and badly written story.
It is impossible for a being that can return from the dead to sacrifice its life.
I'm not up to speed on whatever Matt's eye problem is, but I am hoping that it is going to be OK.
The perfect human eye that 'god' is claimed to have designed and created is in reality a very poor design that evolved to fail the vast majority of the population.
Some dumbasses out there would even think that God did some act to purnish him by damaging the eye.
On Atheist Experience he mentioned that he is suffering from double vision, so the eye patch. He also mentioned that he can switch the patch to the other eye
@ Ah, thank you for that.
He is known to be diabetic. He probably has a neuropathy from the DM that has affected a nerve that balances the eye, resulting in double vision (diplopia).
@@marcusaquino6105 might be correctable with glasses, had to get new eyeglasses prescription because of seeing double
Hey Matt, I have been saying this for years now and I’m glad you brought this up. I also have been saying that their god is not a father at all but rather a Farmer who created people to do exactly what it wants them to do just as a farmer creates the farm for the purpose of supporting that farmer. If their claim is their god wants them to believe in it, then that is what they were created for and not actually live free at all. There’s more to this but I just wanted to get this to you for maybe another show of yours. Keep doing your best at bringing sound reasoning to those that choose imagination over reality.
hey Matt, this is a very small issue, but Bruce Wayne did not give up his wealth in Batman Begins. He states he never stole anything when asked about stealing the items in the film, and the camera pans to the Wayne label on the crates. He still retains ownership (at least in his mind) of the company. That is one way he justified "taking" the cargo/shipments. He was already the owner. I should add, before I get trolled, absolutely no disrespect intended.
DC comics scholar correcting Matt. 👍Thanks for your input.
Wow, that part of the story bothered me as well because first human beings have done a lot worse torture than that to each other and in some cases in the very name of Jesus. Then there is this idea that the crucifixion was his reason to be. He knew how important this was and how it would turn out. When a regular person gets tortured there is none of that just blinding pain with no purpose and with the likely outcome of death. But what if you knew absolutely the length of the torture, how it ends and not only an eternal paradise afterwards but to be worshiped by millions of people forever. I would stand in line for that opportunity and there are millions of people today that would gladly die to live again in paradise rather than endure the pain of cancer, the years in hospital beds slowly dying alone and confused. Jesus being God must have been fully knowledgeable of the pain he was about to go through on the deepest level. Then there s this last job of Jesus, to pick out who will roast in hell for all eternity. Being a player in that torture show would be, in my mind, worse than crucifiction.
There's even a problem with the idea that he experienced pain. If Jesus is all-knowing, he already knew exactly what it was like to experience that pain, and every pain possible for that matter. Can there be a significant distinction between absolute, perfect knowledge of an experience, and actually experiencing it? Because if experiencing it made Jesus feel something new, then didn't he not actually have that knowledge beforehand? Knowing it would at least be like having a memory of it, but our memories are imperfect. The perfect knowledge possessed by Jesus/god should be equivalent to the knowledge of a present experience
Well....I don't think you are meant to look at it like that. That is one of the things which would be called a "sacred mystery". You aren't usually supposed to apply that kind of logic to it. I see what you are saying though, and I'm not trying to defend Christianity, but I don't think they want to use that kind of mundane logic on it
@@john.premose Funny how the unexplainable nonsense is always a sacred mystery . Is there not just as much proof to call it bullshit ?
@@sarahann530 I wouldn't call it bs. It comes from a different time in man's history. A different way of looking at things than what we have now. That's why I have a degree of respect for it, as long as it is in its historical context.
However, I do not have respect for it when people try to push it on us in the 21st century. But from an ancient or medieval pov, I don't object to it. You have to take things as they were in history. In my opinion, it's absurd to mock the beliefs of people from 2000 years ago
@@john.premose I can't say I know what _you're_ saying, unless it's "just don't question it." This isn't the place for not questioning things. Very few places are.
Certainly you're not supposed to apply logic to it if you don't want to realize anything troubling about the belief. You're allowed to ask questions, but not _too_ much, and you're supposed to accept the response, including bad answers and nonanswers, as the end of it.
@@dancinswords what I'm saying is that what you described is exactly what would be called a "mystery". It's a paradox that defies logic. Monks have probably been contemplating this for centuries
The idea that Jesus actually did not sacrifice himself because he rose from the dead ie did not really die for us came to me about 2 years ago. When I would raise this in discussions, particularly on Facebook, the Christians would shut down the conversation. Surprise surprise.
An eight-year-old girl once asked me after a church service "that if Jesus died for ours sins , how come he isn't still being punished ? !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.
I always thought it would just be a better plot overall, and may even give more credibility to modern believers, if the "sacrifice" was that the death of jesus meant the death of god. Like, God and Jesus are the same right? So the annihilation of Jesus's body means the permanent annihilation of god, then humans are "saved," but are left to fend for ourselves with only the ancient scribblings of ancient scribes to guide our way.
Makes for a better story!
From what I understand from tour guides, that's basically the Aztecs. They had to sacrifice people to keep the world running, because all the gods sacrificed themselves to get it started. Or something like that. Christianity for sure has the lamest mythologies.
@@darrennew8211 almost every pantheon has some immoral monster(s) that are, or are as strong as, a diety, but at least they are interesting. Most are fallible, even human, enough that their characters and choices are believable. But the Abrahamic god? The omni-everything diety that somehow fucked up at least twice with his pet project? Boring and logically and internally inconsistent.
I can tell ya that many people in this world have suffered more than Jesus did in the Bible.
THIS!!! ☝
Was Jesus aware he would be resurected and ascend to heaven? If he wasnt you could at least say he was PREPARED to sacrific everything- even if it turned out he sacrificed nothing.
If he DID know then all he did was agree to have a very bad weekend for infinite reward.
He was aware. He said in 3 days I will raise it up (using the temple as a metaphor).
The life, death and resurrection of Jesus must be read as a symbolism, a metaphorical way to be a better person and create better communities.
Only Protestants take the Bible literally.
And yes, it was useful for something. From that moment, no one was sacrificed to the divinity anymore, since the divinity sacrificed himself for us so that each one of us would sacrifice himself for the others, following his example.
A Catholic atheist.
Matt, thank you for your wisdom and humor. Mixing the two together is not an easy task and you do it every day.
One word that often come in your videos is spirituality. The simple definition: *Spirituality involves the recognition of a feeling or sense or belief that there is something greater than myself, something more to being human than sensory experience, and that the greater whole of which we are part is cosmic or divine in nature.*
IMHO that word should be demoted and replaced by Meditation or else.
No part of meditation is divine. Spirituality has no meaning. "Spirituality" is a semantic stop-sign. A form of loaded language. A way to take complex feelings, concepts, and politics, and shrink them into short, clever phrases that aren't necessarily untruthful, but don't tell the full story. It exists as a way to keep people from thinking more deeply about important issues.
@@overlycaffeinatedsquirrel779 I read your reply 4 times and NOW I want to know who is your dealer. 😝 "No part of meditation is divine" This is exactly my point. I DO NOT BELIEVE in any DIVNITY, do you?
@@Marcus_Caius I'm agreeing that, how to explain it, they're using words like "divinity" the same way they use "God works in mysterious ways." As thought terminating cliches. So they don't have to actually go any deeper. They don't have to learn science has shown meditation is good for you, but as we know, it's also shown there's nothing paranormal going on. This makes me think critical thinking isn't enough to make an atheist. Curiosity seems to plays a part. They use words like divinity to shut curiosity down and not challenge their own views.
@@overlycaffeinatedsquirrel779 Agree too :) ironically, I just found a video from Matt exactly about that subject th-cam.com/video/bwCVitUVkP8/w-d-xo.html
Jesus gave up his long weekend for your sins, which you still have to repent for.
Love you, Matt! Feel better 💜
Sacrificed his weekend. Came back, then emigrated to India and became a guru.
Analogous: Yhwy the indestructible sent his only son to a weekend football camp against his will, although his son was willing (not sure how that works) and made him suffer. Then, after putting up with jockery and heavy tackles for a few days, his son came home unscathed. It turns out was actually just Yhwy in a schizophrenic guise so actually sent himself to football camp and sustained no injury since he is indestructible.
Wild!
Not to be pedantic, but it would be dissociative identity disorder (DID). Schizophrenia does not involve multiple personalities, instead they lose touch with reality (via hallucinations, etc). I know this because I've been corrected on the several times in the past :-) So, yes, the trinity sounds exactly like DID.
Without the ludicrous and, frankly, evil conception of original sin, making babies inherently evil and sinful, the whole dogma and theology of Christianity falls apart (i.e. no reason for baptisms or Jesus to "sacrifice" himself). The idea of original sin is just to make people feel bad about themselves. I believe that children are innocent when born and can be raised to be "good", well-adjusted adults with moral consciousness. And people would be so much happier without having to worry about their "sinful" nature (like having normal sexuality and desires) and going to hell.
I have changed diapers and have smelled evil.
LOL!!!
As a kid in Catholic school I always thought that Jesus dying was no big deal if he was GOD. Glad to see others have the same thoughts.
Weekend in pains is nothing? I dont think so. But i agree that comparison between one painful weekend for one person and whole eternity in hell for all non-believers makes it look like almost nothing.
If God had a Son, Why do we never hear anything about Mrs. God?
if HAY-sus was god himself, or at the very least, a demigod with fantastical powers, wouldn’t he be able to just magically block all the pain (through that passion) and just ACT like he’s suffering from the pain?
how would you know he didn’t do that?
Execution at the stake was strictly regulated under Roman Law: Nails were NEVER used! The condemned was tied to the stake. Desecration of the body was seen as part of the process, and under NO circumstances, was anyone allowed to remove the body from the stake. Public rotting bodies of criminals, was considered to be an excellent deterrent to crime! Family members were never allowed to take down the remains for burial! So, there never could have been any "Tomb of Jesus".
Yep... it's a huge flaw in christian ✝️ mythology that the ancients didn't think of. 😳
You are describing mainstream Protestant theology and yes your logic holds. But how do you answer those millions of Christians who don’t believe Jesus was God? Their take is that God substituted the punishment of one perfect man’s sin with another perfect man’s offering to take on the punishment so his sacrifice of his perfect humanity is therefore an equal payment to satisfy Justice thus releasing Adam from his sentence of death. A substitutional sacrifice a perfect man for a perfect man? Oh course it’s all horse sh-t. But many believe that Jesus risked giving up his life forever if he didn’t carry out God’s plan just so. What I don’t get is why God would have sentenced Adam to death for eating a forbidden fruit. It’s a bit harsh. And God is Love? Couldn’t God have sat down with Adam and explain to him about why it’s better to obey laws… etc. I mean we don’t kill our children on their first or any subsequent act of disobedience. So why would and infinitely wise and loving God act in the way the Bible describes. He’s a true monster. Then he kills his beloved son to redeem Adam? There must have been a better way. None of humanity’s suffering was necessary at all. The whole story of salvation in the Bible is wholly ridiculous and frankly evil. God is worse than Satan who only told the truth to Adam and Eve. This is another thing. How could Adam and Eve have sinned at all if they had no conception of good and evil until after they ate the forbidden fruit?They couldn’t have understood the consequences of their act until after it was committed. So how could they be held accountable? The whole story of the fall has to be conjured up by humans because it’s so damn wrong in every sense.
In essence its a load of dung. Why was Jesus needed if god is all powerful? He could have forgiven without all this bloodshed.
Brilliant argumentation, Matt
I couldn't agree more. As a little girl, I used to think, "I'd die right now if this saves all the suffering animals, and stops all the cruelty in the world". These were my thoughts, and I'm still loyal to them. That's why gods never were the subject of my interest. Also, I found it gross to wear the mini-instrument of tortures as a necklace. I couldn't explain it with words back then, I simply felt it was wrong, so I denied every time my dad offered me a golden cross-pendant as a gift. Even If J-s was real, even If he sacrificed his life (some churches separate him from his "father"), even If he didn't resurrect after that, -- even in such case I would find it totally horrible to wear a cross pendant. ugh.