Now I feel silly for being so invested in this little drama when I've not played Baldur's Gate, Elden Ring, or any other big budget, ultra-high quality games and have just been watching from the sidelines. I don't know how good Baldur's Gate 3 is on account of not having played it, and I simply avoid the bad, overly expensive triple A games that's been churned out year by year. Here I am, playing silly little games like Starsector or Vermintide, yet I still couldn't help but get swept up in this whole thing.
At the time I was playing Fallout 1 and my reaction to this whole baldur's gate thing was "wow they finally discovered crpgs and are treating it like the return of christ that's sad" But then CJ's video got me like "damn maybe this is actually serious" but now I look at back at it and honestly? I was right. This is sad
man, this guy immediately lost all credibility when his response to "hey, don't harass the people in this video, death threats are bad" was "don't care tbh"
idk how people can think CJ was at all in good faith. he insulted noodle, the person, so frequently-and would barely poke at his argument. (also keep in mind, CJ’s entire video takes place over maybe 10% of noodle’s total video?)
@@benji6871 i never attacked the person, CJ. i said his argument was in bad faith because he used ad hominem, and did not truly argue against noodle or any of his points that well. please actually understand fallacies before coming to me. (ntm this isnt an argument, its more a hyperbolic comment on a video which already made the real argument.)
one thing i hated about cjs video is how,, for like half of it he just goes “uhm,,, no one said that” and doesn’t show/mention when noodle shows a piece of uncut footage showing someone saying exactly that
While I do think Archwizard has a point about noodles point being faulty and holding AAA companies not nearly as accountable as he should (To he clear im a huge fan of noodles content), I think that Archwizard's point just absolutely decolves as he starts raging and slandering noodle. I remember when that video came out and i generally understood and even agreed with him throughout the first half, but actually had to turn the video off about halfway because of how absurd things were getting.
Couldn’t have said it better myself honestly. From my point of view, Noodle and CJ both lied and/or had a somewhat faulty analysis. And in CJ’s initial video, I left a comment ultimately disagreeing with what Noodle posted but said I also thought his reputation shouldn’t be ruined by one bad video. CJ responded saying Noodle was a bad person regardless and I think was trying to imply I was a fanboy for thinking so. I then responded with I know how to criticize and I did so in the comment he replied to, then he said “missed the point entirely lmao”. So, I have no damn clue what CJ is trying to be.
@@rezz__emiya5948 Probably. I asked him to elaborate on what he meant when he said I “missed the point” and hasn’t responded back. I guess I should be led to believe there wasn’t a point to begin with.
Bro no I don’t think you understand. It does not matter if Noodle’s point is right or wrong. He actively created misinformation to try and push his argument. That invalidates it in any way shape or form. You can take any stance you want on AAA gaming and expectations for the industry going forward, but you cannot beyond any doubt deny that it was SUPER slimy of noodle to do that.
@@orcastrike7750 I don't disagree with you, I like noodle based off the way he presents his content and less about what he's actually talking about, but simultaneously I disagree with your assertion that just because he misrepresented the facts that means his entire point is irrelevant. Generally, I air on the side of AAA companies being greedy, entitled and incompetent, but that doesn't mean that everything that noodle said was wrong, and I can come to that conclusion due to having done my own research and not having my opinions spoon fed to me by TH-camrs.
@@VitaliyMilonov By loudly and repeatedly denying the existence of the initial comments that sparked Nelson's videos, pretty much intending to convince viewers not to look any further
@@Brownd55 He didn't deny anything. Nobody was saying that. Noodle came up with a straw man by re-editing a bunch of people's videos to paint them as an angry gamer mob, and then proceeded to gaslight his audience, which is also what you're trying to do right now.
@@Brownd55 If somebody made those comments why didn't Noodle reply to them, instead of creating those comments himself and then trying to come up with arguments to his own problem (which he didn't even succeed in, he has lost to his own straw man)?
I watched part of CJ's video when it came out. I was stupid at the time. With Noodle having been one of my favorite TH-camrs at the time, I was so heartbroken and felt so goddamn deceived that I unsubscribed. Now that I am doing research on this topic several months later and realize more and more how bad faith CJ was, I feel *even more* deceived (for context, I can be a very naive person when it comes to online opinions sometimes). I feel like I owe Noodle an apology even though I said nothing to him, or anything about this on the internet in general. Makes me wish this video came out sooner. I'm resubscribing to noodle after this, thank you SO MUCH for making this. I'm gonna go rewatch his Need for Speed video now.
yeah i felt the exact same way and i also can be very naïve. the thing that struck me as odd and led me to finding this video was how noodle didn't say a word about the video even after people were asking for a response and to see what noodle really meant. it only occurred to me while rewatching that most of the video is ad hominem and things that don't really add or detract from either side's credibility and points
I think the crux of this controversy comes down to a misunderstanding. people are mistaking developers for publishers and shareholders. developers want to make a good game, and publishers and shareholders want your money, it’s that simple
“Telling them to do better without understanding what they the actually do” is literally what happens in the ending of the Falcon and the Winter Soldier “You need to do better Senator”
CJ plays the infamous clip of a game journalist failing the simple Cuphead tutorial in response to Noodle saying, "To be fair to these guys, they aren't journalists." He's so fundamentally illiterate and/or desperate for any excuse to dunk on Noodle that he responded to "We should hold journalists to a higher standard than streamers and e-celebs" with a clip of a game journalist sucking at their job? Like he thought Noodle was actually saying, "Game journalists are all incredible and should never be criticised!"
I don't know what to think anymore. I saw Noodle's video, then CJ's video, then I read a random comment congratulating CJ for being Pro-Communist or something, and then I realized I was on the internet, which is chock-full of unhinged clout farmers. I really need to approach everything on the internet with skepticism.
@@amongdrip8073 it doesn't work very well and has some of the same issues as capitalism. to put it shortly, capitalism supposedly doesn't work because everyone's too selfish, but communism supposedly would work because people aren't selfish
My least favorite thing about his video is how self-righteous CJ is about it, WHILE DOING THE EXACT SAME THING HE'S ACCUSING NOODLE OF. He's so smug while constantly making strawman arguments, cutting context of both Noodle and Nelson, and defending shitty industry practices. To top it all off, he defends and incites harassment which is only some shit that internet bottom-feeders do.
@@VitaliyMilonovi am begging you: please just do something else. be with your friends and/or family! play a fun game! read a good book! take a walk! just, anything other than making forty whole comments with the sole purpose of baiting a reaction out of people. i guarantee the reactions you’re getting aren’t anger, but confused annoyance. and i know if i reply after you reply, it’ll lead to an infinite loop that just drains me of will. so i’m just gonna post this and leave. you can choose to follow it, or not. that is your choice. as for me, i’m off to enjoy the wonder and beauty life has to offer. cheers!
@@lisatroiani6119 ffs, you can't be more insufferable than you already are. 1) There aren't forty but ten at best comments written by me, and, I assure you, it doesn't take an hour to write one or two questions. 2) There are far more comments from the same people trashing on CJ, but I don't see you begging *them* to stop. 3) The fact that you're calling "ASKING A QUESTION" (none of you have given an answer to so far) a bait says more about you than an answer you could have given instead. Next time simply f-bomb me, instead of giving some perverted pseudo-concerned variation of it, since you such a fan of saving time.
@@lisatroiani6119 Good lord, you can't be more insufferable than you already are. 1) There aren't forty but ten at best comments written by me, and, I assure you, it doesn't take an hour to write one or two questions. 2) There are far more comments from the same people trashing on CJ, but I don't see you begging *them* to stop. 3) The fact that you're calling "ASKING A QUESTION" (none of you have given an answer to so far) a bait says more about you than an answer you could have given instead. Next time simply f-bomb me, instead of giving some perverted pseudo-concerned variation of it, since you're such a big fan of saving time.
@@lisatroiani6119 Good lord, you can't be more insufferable than you already are. 1) There aren't forty but ten at best comments written by me, and, I assure you, it doesn't take an hour to write one or two questions. 2) There are far more comments from the same people trashing on CJ, but I don't see you begging *them* to stop. 3) The fact that you're calling "ASKING A QUESTION" (none of you have given an answer to so far) a bait says more about you than an answer you could have given instead. Next time simply f-bomb me, instead of giving some perverted pseudo-concerned variation of it, since you're such a fan of saving time.
The more I see from CJ the more I'm convinced he doesn't really care about the actual argument these people are trying to have and he's far more concerned with getting back at people he perceives as having wronged him by arguing against the prevailing opinion of his community. Like, seeing the way he talks about Noodle it seems like he wants to actually deplatform or "punish" him in some way, but every accusation of lying he makes is so weak it comes of as him finding any reason to discredit Noodle. It's actually very off putting how legitametly angry he seems to be at Noodle.
i replied without at all attacking him, trying to be kind and just being honest. his response was nothing but insults, and bragging about how big his video will be.
I feel so personally vindicated by this video. I watched the entire responce to noodle when it came out and genuinely couldn't beleive someone could make such a bad video in good faith and I felt like I was going crazy because people were eating it up
I knew being completely uninvested in this drama was going to pay off edit: gotta edit this here rq, cj is so fucking annoying. i'm real tired right now so maybe that's what doing it, but him screaming about creating context set me off and now i don't like this guy one bit
Blizzard, a company with multiple massive massive industry leading live service games, and a publisher, obviously has more employees. God I wouldn't be surprised if they have more than 400 employees just keeping the lights on, no development.
Have only watched the beginning but I 100 percent agree I spent like hours trying to figure out if anything Cj said had merit because it kept bugging my brain (might be cuz I maybe have ADHD). The answer for me is slightly yes but mostly no. Nearly all of his evidence either is wrong, misinterpreted, or inadvertently proves noodle right. It’s even stupider because he uses correct evidence and then somehow missed the actually good counter argument in front of him. He is right in feeling a slight bit of malice but it’s blown completely out of proportion. What really happened is that noodle thinks he’s smarter than people sometimes. Noodle once went on a rage rant on SPV3, saying it’s badly designed and kinda sucks, and while he does praise it for adding lots of life to CE, the unintended message delivered is that SPV3 sucks and doesn’t deserve as much praise. Noodle isn’t some big scammer, he just thinks he knows more which is like half true based on him doing better research and sometimes he gets angry at goofy people. So he’s a human being.
This is a good a point though I don’t think going for this wouldn’t have been a good thing for CJ’s video. The big problem is just that without tact this would functionally be a character attack which wouldn’t land well, and probably wouldn’t only worsen our view of CJ actually being able to take this “conversation” seriously. There definitely are ways to utilize this. The one I can think of is bring up the character of noodle, the very clearly over exaggerated version of himself , and tie it into how how he can get too deep into the character for the negative. You can then get into deconstructing some of his points through that lens. Obviously the problem is this requires a whole other style of video that CJ isn’t making, and arguably couldn’t make due to the specific nature of this whole situation (the response to a response to a response). I will say I do fully side with noodle in his arguments with this, but if you wanted to get at him that’s how you’d do it.
I love this new genre of youtube: "Reviewing reviewers who review other reviewers". It's also devastating how manipulative people can be when they review things. Seems like CJ was in the wrong in many aspects with this situation. This is why youtubers who research should ALWAYS put their sources in their descriptions.
What I got from all of this garbage messy drama is: - Noodle is trying to make sense of a discussion with so many diffrent interpretations of what both sides are saying which leads to other people thinking he's talking nonsense; - Cj had good intentions *(with what he believed was true [but it does get kinda hard to see that when, as you pointed out, he was just straight up harassing Noodle])* but didn't convey his point properly and missed the points of others entirely, didn't do enough research and didn't bother to actually try to add anything to the discussion about AAA studios starting to release actually finished and good products other than just saying *''this is bad, stop doing that and make good games"* which is fine for bringing attention to the problem but not so much for actually bringing change since just saying this and nothing else does, on some level, show ignorance to the complexity and nuances of game developing. Thanks for helping me understand wth was going on lol subbed
Realistic expectations are not high expectations and thus when making a game if you have high expectations lower them to realistic expectations... Isn't that...lowering your expectations? Idk. I'm going to watch the rest of the video. (they said it themselves...they wanted to pull the breaks and not make another game..... ( Ok so it cut off here and i don't know were the rest went)) Edited: 41:00 They say it themselves that they are done because they want to spend time with their family But yeah...they don't want to make another one because they make them too big and ambitious. it eats too much of their time and....no one told them to make games that would suck out their souls. They did that themselves. (I said something ruder but when editing some how it got deleted)
(putting an extra response here in the hope it won't get deleted) After watching the whole video...Im upset. All these people are arguing for the same thing and The creators of High Five Rush still got canned. Just. .GOD DAMMIT
I don't like CJ's approach and you can dismiss all his personal attacks or missguided arguments, but the exposed lies and misrepresentation of other people in Noodle's video are very clearly made in bad faith, at what point you can condense something without taking away the message? I think its important to make justice to a video when you are talking about it and watching Noodle's sources really makes him look bad, you can say he was just resuming, but he really made dirty to most of them just to prove his point that we were in the wrong all along, all you have to do is watch the source videos, in all of them the autors acknowledge indie devs are not the focus of this criticism, some even point out responses to the original Nelson's thread, which is either ignorant or selfish, I have nothing against the guy, I even feel empathy for him as someone into game development, but he missed the point and he deserves the criticism. This wave of criticism was directed specifically for triple A studios, no, that's not a bad statement, this whole discussion didn't came because bg3 was too big and good, it came because bg3 was too good despite being an indie studio, it came because there was a contrast, the general perception of big studios is to expect very flawed games, that's why people is asking triple A studios whats their excuse, nobody is asking another indie devs to go big, or any studio to go big, they are asking why bigger studios that went for big deliver such poor quality results, look I don't want to defend CJ's video, I want to defend the integrity of videogames and developers who care about the industry as a form of art, and while it seems Nelson and Noodle does they are missing the point and scolding the wrong people, at least Nelson just missed the point, Noodle knew if he had to make everyone look bad Again, saying this criticism was directed to tripple A studios specifically is not a bad statement, you are pointing out that a good game will have an impact on everyone, not just on triple A studios, but that doesn't change the fact the scold was aimed to big companies, a good game will have a huge impact and may rise the standard of people? maybe, but nobody is asking that for every game, we are asking that for games that cleary are not making the most with what they have and they are charging the most anyways Noodle's video is a huge scold out of nowhere and if it wasn't for the misleading edits I would let it pass at least as uninformed, but is hard to believe someone who took all those videos to edit didn't watch them, the overall message is something I agree with, I just don't like to be called ignorant for something he is trying to make me think I forgot, I think that's part of why CJ's went to far with him, it really feels bad from Noodle and is coming from someone subcribed to him, you can say that CJ's is ignoring what doesn't fit his narrative, but the whole point of his video is that Noodle is doing the same, and there is truth on that, yeah, your video is biased for Noodle's and that's fine, but to properly attack CJ's arguments you have to go for Noodle's one as well which was absent here and left me waiting, not just the one most known edit, but the whole piece, again, many people featured in Noodle's video speak of the problem as a whole, not just Legacy, who got a part sliced not because it changed his argument but because it didn't fit the narrative of the whole video, not just his quote, even if you think the edit is not that important, which it is, and I like how you explained it, still weird Noodle shows the youtube player, that only shows he wanted to present it as if it was like that without editing, like you have to admit that if it isn't that important or changes nothing, why letting that? This whole discussion makes me sad, because it comes from nowhere and divides people who are in the same band, I wish someone else besides CJ would call them out for this because he diminish his own arguments with his video, but I wish people would call out Noodle as much as CJ, because while you somewhat argumented against CJ you didn't argue against his best points because as a fan of Noodle I feel in the wrong siding with him
@@squidtheinconsistent I'm going to remind you that this doesn't dismiss Noodle's doing, again, I don't like Cj's approach, but we can't just deflect criticism to Noodle because the one who did it was being hipocrite, and by doing a strawman you are also doing the same, how about we focus on the main of the issue for once?
@@rily2885 and I'm going to remind you that doing what CJ did and misrepresenting and strawmanning what noodle said does not magically make what noodle said wrong. You want to focus on the main issue? We've arrived. CJ never correctly addressed what Noodle was saying. His entire video is either him arguing against something that has been proven to have happened or continues to happen, or him claiming Noodle did something, misunderstanding what it is he actually did, and then doing to Noodle's video what he claims Noodle did (but didnt actually fucking do) to the dev's video. Please, I implore you, if you're going to point fingers at people and make claims, at least know what the fuck you're talking about and not say dumbass shit like "doing a strawman". You look like an idiot, you sound like an idiot, and you ain't even got the facts straight. Oh, and by distracting from the real main issue, you're being quite hypocritical. Isn't it fun how that works out?
Not going to lie, I think Both Noodles and Cjs’s video were just not that good from an argumentative standpoint. They both just slander everyone else without focusing on an actual compelling argument even tho they both have a decent point.
a dude made of cardboard cutout, an archwizard and a sword walk into a bar... dont have a good punchline lol just sayin, its very suspicious that Cj is so willing to defend the opinions of an IGN journalist and two reactionary culture war gamer types over the ones made by an informed dev and/or someone working closely with one
The audio splice was NOT just removing Legacykilla's verbal mess-up. It was removing the context in which LegacyKilla's distinguishes between indie and triple-a gaming companies The full quote, with [removed context] is this: "-And that's fair to some degree [maybe to the indie and double-a developers, which probably Larian could be considered that, but I just don't think that's at all..], think it's kind of an excuse for the triple-a games industry." Regardless of whether you agree with LegacyKilla and CJ, or not, to act like the only context Noodle is removing here is LegqcyKilla's verbal miss-speaking of the sentence is at best, a gross misunderstanding on your part, and/or negligent research into the topic, and at worst, purposeful malicious manipulation akin to the likes of Noodle himself.
To be clear, I'm not trying to discredit the rest of your video. You make both good and bad points, same as CJ, same as Noodle. Im just trying to say that you shouldn't criticize CJ for doing something that you yourself are also clearly guilty of.
The whole issue with this argument is that noodle never specified a difference between AAA and AA, so, to noodle's point, that context is irrelevant. He only used the clip to show the community's insistence that BG3 DOES set a new standard for gaming. Which the quote DOES assert, regardless of his dismissal of indie games to the argument. Which this video's creator does go into in depth. Explaining that the idea that indie/AA devs wouldn't be caught in this "new standard" is ludicrous. Because it is. noodle did nothing wrong. And this creator addressed that context.
@@antonionapue961 that context is important. Especially when bringing false reasons on why MiMiMi games shut down. Honestly, everyone here is in the bad, but noodle has to take must responsibility cuz he has the lager viewership.
okay but you need to mention that tf you don't just take someone's video splice it so that it looks like its just a piece of the original video and then upload that lol
@@mlgcactus1035actually I think the dude that made an hour long hit piece on noodle and got shittons of people to send him death threats that I'm still finding in dudes comments to this day over damn near completely fabricated and false complaints should be the one who's gotta take responsibility.
@ihatetrollingGaming unlinking the audio from the video is an extra action how is that not wasting time as apposed to just leaving it an extra second of video from the clip?
I guess I'll have to see the doc if I wanna see the breakdown of the section about the studios EA closed then. My apologies to have propaged the misinformation by posting the link of CJ's video in said Noodle video's comments,. Even if this video did give me some good lessons, it ain't excusing its low quality, or my participation to spreding mis-information. And to CJ, I shall say this, whatever if you were right or wrong, have a nice day!
Noodle might've relied on strawman arguments, misinterpreting other peoples' points, and deceptively editing interviews in order to defend AAA studios' anti-consumer business practices, but at least he wasn't rude!! EDIT: I just watched Noodle's latest video where he spends 30 minutes whining about Egoraptor's 10 year old rant on Ocarina of Time, and the crux of the video is "Arin makes a number of fair and points... but he shouldn't have been so rude about it >:(" lol. lmao, even. I'm not going to sugarcoat it. Noodle is a massive tool.
I found CJ's video first and I already was pretty reluctant for a few reasons 1- I know that Noodle is worth his salt. Even if he missed something, a lot of his points still stand and he does a fair amount of research, which shows in his video about crunch culture. This might be a bias, but I would be lying if I said I don't trust the funny cartoon man. 2- Handling of audio. This is nitpicky from my end. CJ is too close to the microphone. He is sometimes too loud 3- He has such a way with words/s. I saw one snipet of his video and it was basically just him insulting and yelling Then I found this video. Thank you for saving me 60 minutes of screams and insults
That’s the problem. Dustin and CJ completely missed the entire point of ‘raised standard’ and thinking developers were the problem and not the workplace they (the developers) are working with the customers they are trying to entertain
@@KamiRoxy CJ specifically pointed out that every single game company Noodle brought up as an example got closed by their greedy owners and not because "angry customers demanded too much". Noodle, on the other hand, was doing exactly what every game journalist and damage control manager are doing every single time nowadays: blame the audience for their product's shitty quality. If CJ's point was "Don't look at game company names, because the people who made the good games have long left those companies", then Noodle's point was "Don't ask questions, just consume product and get exited for the next product".
@@VitaliyMilonov what I’m going to say next is meant to be 100% the kindest way I can with the softest tone possible: 2 issues. The first: noodle and Nelson were giving concerns about how game journalists and gamers at large were being unreasonable with how the process of a game is supposed to be done. BG3 is fantastic for what it was trying to do and it wonderful they achieved their game. Why they were able to do it was with an insane amount of help from D&D official and people who gave them the opportunity to. AAA studios do need to be held to higher standards absolutely. The major complains that are being fought with, and noodle and Nelson are being accused of for literally no reason and 0 evidence of, is that they are advocating for bad games. They are saying that the developers, the people making the games, are being hurt in the process. The second part: if being greedy is wanting to see your family or have something outside of your job…I think the person who thinks that has some serious greed or Apathy for human health. and that’s not even beginning on Dustin, the guy from IGN, just absolutely doing everything wrong a journalist could just to completely tear Nelson a new one because Nelson was the nearest punching bag that dared to question anyone around him. Seriously…that video completely killed my faith IGN is even worth considering a reliable news source for upcoming stuff. It’s kinda depressing
@@KamiRoxy...cj said in the end, that the problem lies with greedy business people, who want to exploit human creativity and passion, and destroy it such that they can feed the lie of infinite growth. Thats, about as clear as that argument gets.
Basically We can't hold AAA studios up to the standard of Baldurs Gate 3, it's a masterpiece that had a lot of love, time, care, and money put into it. However, we still need to hold them up to a better standard than a lot of the subpar games we've been getting recently. But not push the devs to crunch as hard as they do and to give more time for games to cook.
My takeaway: both raised some interesting points for me to think about And that cj sounds like a complete asshole in regards to how he engages with this discourse. He gets very snarky and defensive on twitter. I think he needs to chill a bit At this point I'd need to refresh myself on everything from the first video, before I take away anything else of value lol
I swear, with some people...if they just yell loud enough and sound confident enough, all it takes for a lot of us to fall sucker to it is just that. None of us are immune to it, it seems.
hey, aren’t you also missing the point of CJ’s video, noodle’s video, and the greater issue of the argument at hand: billionaire companies prioritizing making money over good entertainment? late-stage capitalism as a core issue? like I understand you talked about it briefly at the end, but shouldn’t that be the main focus of the argument? arguing with each other over the details of how each argument is presented just misses the overarching problem imo
Since you very politely asked, yeah, I think that is the most important thing I should have talked about and it kinda sucks how I glossed over it. However, I don't think arguing over the details of Cj's video is inherently a problem. Like he got a lot of obvious things wrong and that itself kinda distracts from the message he was trying to tell. And even though I didn't cover his analysis of capitalism, it was still really bad. His main conclusion was that AAA studios were making games bad ON PURPOSE so they can make more money, which makes absolutely no sense, in any shape or form. Even though we both agree that capitalism is bad, I think saying stuff like that misrepresents the true problems and it riles people up for no reason. Man, I wish I covered this because that was freaking weird.
@@chaosblade3358I don’t think summing up the issues in the AAA industry as “capitalism bad” was or is a good summary. In fact I find that a lot of AAA studios are getting in their own way to make money for no other reason…. That is except Ego. Greed is obviously a huge issue, but another issue is incompetency and pure ego on behalf of most higher ups. They don’t listen to what the fans want, they push for either what could make the most money, or what they think they want. When players don’t buy their game and instead choose better games such as indie or, dare I say, BG3, instead of learning from this they try the same get rich quick scheme over and over. It’s to the point where it feels like pure pride, unwilling to go back on your mistake so you double down, leading your company to die on this hill for no reason, besides want to make money to feed your ego. Another big problem is the modern corporate structure, if a employee does a bad job they can be fired and replaced, but if a higher up is incompetent and causes a company to lose billions, it often falls onto everyone under them, as they’re the ones that get laid off while the higher up, the guy who actually caused the problem, gets a bonus. Feel like a lot of issues could be fixed by “democracifying” big work places, private ownership only works practically when it’s a small start up or a smaller scale company, but these mega corporations are the size of literally countries, making them a defacto monopoly. Also doesn’t help how modern Liberalism seems to dismiss Adam Smith’s anti-trust and other pro-worker arguments (haven’t read the wealth of nations so I’m not gonna claim this as fact) it should be the governments job to impose laws and higher taxes on bigger companies, though I don’t see that happening until lobbying (bribery) gets outlawed. Personally I wouldn’t call myself a socialist but not really a capitalist either. There’s good in both systems but there’s flaws in both. (I need to read Wealth of nations and Communsit manifesto to get a better grasp of the two concepts, since I’m mostly going off videos which a lot of them have off echo chamber vibes).
There is something magical about stumbling into internet drama where the only part I saw was one reasonable take (Noodle's video) and the conclusion (this video).
the amount of people i've seen under noodle's video that watched CJ's video and, without trying to form their own opinion, *regurgitated it* by "calling out" nood on his "bullshit" is straight up rage inducing to me. is thinking for yourself just... dead? thank you for this video, swordsman.
Cj honestly just took advantage of the people who don’t like noodle already, just because they don’t agree with him and weaponized it to excuse himself on his insult rampage, everyone in arch wizard video and arch wizard himself keep failing to realize noodle and Nelson are on there side and aren’t saying jack about excusesing company’s as to why they shouldn’t make big games they both explained it’s a unreasonable standard that every game should be that massive not that it can’t happen,
I never even saw anything Noodle said as a lie like yeah BG was pretty bug free until act 3 then it was a mess but now its good. Like I watched both vids when they were new and my ass is like whats the point in the argument CJ is making then turns out this guy is a dumbass which now it all makes sense.
I tried to watch wizards video and it was uhhhhh yikes. I couldn’t sit through it. I went to the guys channel and saw something on how art is not subjective which is a brain meltingly bad hot take. Also it was funny how people in his comments were complaining about noodle calling them gamers when it’s clearly a joke
Weird that you're willing to defend any of Noodles comments about gamers as "jokes" but no mention of Archwizard also being an entertainer and giving him the same leeway.
@@amongdrip8073 Did either of you watch the video?? He's not making a "hot take" hes misconstruing his own point to make a joke, hes not actually saying art isn't subjective its a joke. His actual point is that Art and science are intertwined. the visuals are extremely experimental and probably whatever the hell amongdrip thinks ""Subjective art"" is.
@Somebuffoononline I'm not asking the video, unless that's your name. I'm trying to find out if you people (?) have reasoned yourselves into your positions and not simply repeating someone's opinion.
Every one should listen to my opinion because it is objectively correct, boulder gate three was unique it was allowed to be unique, AAA games are put on a tight leash, 28:29 which is why boulders gate three raised the stranded, as in AAA games should be made games before they are profit cows to Be milked. I didn't like noodles video because he just blames gamers, for their miss guided criticism, targeting a small guy, and also his thesis which is games developers being forced to make games big because gamers like big, what gamers like is circumstances, ceo's and investors force the developers to make what gets back profit, big is an easy and safe way to matket your game, to a massive crowd, aj video is clearly by a crazy guy, but I still believe there's valid criticism, mostly on noodle not seeing the forest from the trees.
As someone who watched CJ's video but not Noodle's, I think you missed the mark on one point. I'm currently at about 35 minutes into the video and I'm seeing you comment on how using Baldur's Gate 3 as a standard necessarily implies that it's about the scale, not only the quality. What you said was: "I understand what Destin and CJ are trying to say. They don't necessarily want every game exactly like Baldur's Gate 3. But if you told me from this day forward, every game that I play will be a 10 out of 10 game, then that would obviously be the coolest thing to ever happen, right? The problem with this, though, is that we live in the real world. Games don't come from magic, they have to be carefully crafted with passion and hard work, which we often take for granted now." What you mean is, obviously people want good games, it wouldn't make sense if developers wanted to make games bad, right? Feel free to correct me if my interpretation is wrong... but I think this take ignores a very ugly aspect of the AAA industry. Remember how a lot of these people you are responding to have talked about being tired of microtransactions? That's a huge part of the problem. Just like you said in the same video: "Another example is where Noodle says 'money talks, and we're loud', and then CJ presents a graph about interests? His point is that companies make a lot of money, not how much people play their game." Like, YEAH. Diablo 4 is HATED by many longtime fans of the franchise, which doesn't negate the fact the game made unfathomable amounts of money. Companies are pumping games that are not only bad, but PREDATORY, and being rewarded for it. There's a reason why there isn't a whole lot of people bringing up The Last of Us Part 2 as an example of the decline of the modern AAA industry. It's because that game, despite having a lot of haters, is only arguably bad in terms of misguided writing or game design choices. It's undeniable they tried and put their hearts into that game. It's not just about the lack of quality in modern games, but about the feeling that most companies don't even seem to try nowadays. What are the examples people generally bring up when talking about the sad state of the AAA industry? As mentioned before, Diablo 4, but also the Assassin's Creed franchise, the Call of Duty franchise - for examples from the current year we have Skull and Bones, Suicide Squad: Kill the Justice League, Dragon's Dogma 2, and so goes on. Sure, not all bad modern AAA games have microtransactions. But it's still a very prominent problem in the industry that tends to allow companies to financially get away with bad games, and as such they have much less motivation to try. And that's how I interpreted people saying Baldur's Gate 3 is a new standard for the industry. Games that don't use predatory monetization or are increasingly safe and stale aren't as common as they used to be, especially ones that are actually good. I absolutely do not think that's because the DEVELOPERS are lazy and don't care, but definitely because the HIGHER-UPS are lazy and don't care. That specific point aside, good video.
i just want you to realize you have made a better-formed argument than cj because you've actually fucking thought about it instead of just getting mad over an issue you made up
@@PunishedDad I admit I haven't played it and just heard a lot of negativity surrounding the game's handling of microtransactions. I haven't played the vast majority of the games I mentioned, actually. Even though not playing some of those should be understandable lol
I kinda like this debate saga thing cus it's nice to see multiple points! After watching, I agree wholeheartedly on the fact that people are saying devs are "wanting bad games" cus that's not true. It's clear the passion that's being put forward, despite the crunch and conditions that higher-ups put on the developers. It may be anecdotal, but I've seen multiple sentiments about lazy DLC and predatory microtransactions, and sadly see people not understand it's the publishers/higher-ups making these decisions to make as much money as possible. So, shifting the blame to the devs is scummy. Great video! I agreed with CJ at first but realized later on that I got rage-baited... we need to encourage better working conditions and more time for the actual developers to work, so that they can prioritize what matters, making what they want to make that doesn't treat the customer with contempt. Also, plz make that vid on capitalism and art... it sounds too interesting to miss out on!
Replying to specify that it's the publishers and executive positions making decisions to treat the customer with contempt... somehow still had that knee jerk response my bad
Thank you for making this video. I had just recently watched CJ's video today and while I wasn't fully invested in it, trying to simplify stances as noodle wants to encourage games to not rely on complexity and leniency for creativity, and CJ wanted to put the burden on triple A to make good games, God bless the algorithm for allowing me to find this video.
Man, I feel played. I think I believed CJ just because he was A. someone with explicitly anti-capitalist views, which I also am and B. someone who seemed less... I dunno, jokey? More serious, less approachable. And he was saying something negative about a TH-camr I liked in a way that made me feel defensive, and I have a tendency to believe that whatever feels the worst must be true. I didn't like when CJ started getting personal and calling Noodle greedy and spineless, especially because it seemed so counter to opinions Noodle's voiced in the past, especially his feelings about how normalized and dangerous crunch is in the game industry. I REALLY didn't like when we straight up called him the r-slur. I thought about pointing it out in my comment, but I wasn't sure if CJ or anyone else would actually listen. ...In retrospect, I'm surprised I even payed attention to this whole argument. I've never played BG3 (though I would like to), most games I play and love are indie games. My favorites right now are Slay the Princess and ULTRAKILL.
Check out Nightmare Reaper. I randomly came across it recently and it's great. it's an FPS but subverted really well. Not nearly as skill intensive as ULTRAKILL tho.
This has gone from a dude on twitter talking about a game, to a game journalist telling him he’s wrong, to noddle defending the first guy, to another TH-camr tearing down noddles response, to you responding to that guy video. Who’s going to rip this guy a new one so we can keep this chain going until we forget why we’re here! ( JOKE! DO NOT DO! )
Ultimately it all comes down to Xavier making a bunch of criticisms about the gaming industry and blaming the consumers instead of saying "this all needs to change so we can have more masterpieces like bg3"
@@k0metz590 The process of making bg3 be so open ended made it so it has a large amount of endings. Which is in reality not a bunch of different endings but a combination of different plot threads resolving in different ways. Like Astarion's ending can be one of a few different options. Die, Ascend, Don't ascend and free vampires, Don't ascend and don't fee vampires. Now you take that and you multiply it by the number of other possible options from the other party members endings as well as other character endings in general and you get a high number. People really do not care about there being lots of endings for bg3 at all. They care about a well polished narrative that gives people plenty of freedom of choice.
Ah yes, the next episode of "TH-cam recommendation drama" I know of Noodle only from his Please Stop Talking appearances and said BG3 video since it was recommended on YT Then got the CJ video and now this What will happen on the next episode (for which I'll also be at least a month behind)
Wow, A Feature length cope about an opposing party's legitimate criticism of that disingenuous excuse of a video, complaining about petty remarks to paint the target as bad faith, completely ignoring valid points on a flimsy basis, playing up minor discrepancies as deceit, completely manufactures rebuttals by missing the point of the criticism in the first place *multiple* times. admits to bias, expects to be taken seriously. Its all here folks! and ripe for the picking!
The idea that a single comment from a random person on the internet makes something not a strawman is ridiculous and makes the entire idea of a strawman fallacy impossible, I can find a single person saying anything, something is a strawman when either a large group of people or significant people like say a politician are making a claim and it is being misrepresented.
A strawman argument is a ridiculous version of an argument that is easier to defeat. If it is a legitimate argument by someone, it isn't a strawman. The issue then is that they simply argued against that person that commented, not other people. But if you state "no-one ever said this", then...yeah, even a single comment saying that counts as a counterpoint.
@@FFKonoko "no-one ever said this" is a common hyperbolic response to straw men arguments, nobody actually means "no-one" its obvious to any sane person that of the 7 billion people on the planet at least one of them is saying any brain dead thing, to bring up that a random individual actually did say it is just an attempt at getting "gotcha" points.
the way that he shows this is very silly-but acting like people werent saying they were expecting bg3 sized rpgs regularly is silly. they absolutely were, and im certain you can find ideas like this near everywhere. the point is: nelson was addressing something that existed, and then (thanks to the IGN guy), that point was brought up even more-then noodle responded to him. noodle didn’t “strawman” anyone, he was responding to a common argument-one many of us (including myself) have heard.
@lakthederg I genuinely don't think there is a significant amount of people that expected rpgs the size of bg3, most of what I have seen have talked about the raised bar on attention to detail.
Your video is much more "I assume/think" what different people wanted to say and not what they actually said or argued about. You point at cuts out of context that are explained why they make the argument different and you just say "yeah, they don't", and move on. I honestly don't think you're really adding anything here and just trying to ride the drama - sorry
Yes, trying to ride the drama of over half a year ago. It's dead drama, but he considered it an important enough discussion to bring back to the spotlight. The video is very well structured, and he's pretty fluent with his points. I legitimately don't know how you can't understand his main point.
![ตีสิบเดย์ [FULL] | เปิดใจ "อาจารย์ เบียร์ ฅนตื่นธรรม" นักสนทนาธรรมสายดุดัน!](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/vqaBI_mnoDk/mqdefault.jpg)
Moral of the story: Twitter/TH-cam is still one of the worst places on the internet to have a discussion. Bring back forums lmao
I think websites are just gonna slowly remove comments from websites, and soon to be the ability to have to write to people in order to communicate.
are you stupid????? forums won't do shit!!!!
"Bring back forums lmao"
Because we just need to bring back the smartest people of 4chan
@@guypguy this may sound INSANE but forums despite how catastrophic they sometimes were, had a bit of charm to them
@@guypguy I don’t think the latin script should exist anymore. You’re right.
I 100% did not expect a third response in this saga.
Same here
Me neither feels like watching a trilogy
this shit like the return of the king
This is getting hype yo
Same. To be fair, the 2nd guy is just horrible. He just straight up would reply to anyone countering or critiquing his points in the most immature way
Coming up next week: Chaosblade33 Lied, CJ was taken out of context and Noodle is a nepo baby
Thats the truth
@@petwisk2012 Huh?
if he'a a nepo baby who's the famous parent(s)? even MORE drama to unfold!!
@@flats6666 oh baby we're gonna milk this for ages
@@petwisk2012Gurl what- “taken out of context” is wild when that’s literally what cj was doing the majority of the time
that baldur guy has a huge gate.
Honestly i think he should have a smaller gate because i cant get past the big gate
i heard he’s got three of them
bro where did he get so many gates??? i aint got any
@@ddragontheloud I think he did the duplication glitch it hasn't been patched yet
@@slimeking4777 nah, i think he used the d20.
Now I feel silly for being so invested in this little drama when I've not played Baldur's Gate, Elden Ring, or any other big budget, ultra-high quality games and have just been watching from the sidelines. I don't know how good Baldur's Gate 3 is on account of not having played it, and I simply avoid the bad, overly expensive triple A games that's been churned out year by year.
Here I am, playing silly little games like Starsector or Vermintide, yet I still couldn't help but get swept up in this whole thing.
Yeah, same here
Damn bro i love a good game of vermintide and darktide
I been playing new vegas, dead space 2 and Touhou 17.5.
At the time I was playing Fallout 1 and my reaction to this whole baldur's gate thing was "wow they finally discovered crpgs and are treating it like the return of christ that's sad"
But then CJ's video got me like "damn maybe this is actually serious" but now I look at back at it and honestly? I was right. This is sad
I love starsector
man, this guy immediately lost all credibility when his response to
"hey, don't harass the people in this video, death threats are bad"
was "don't care tbh"
That's has nothing to do with credibility goy
Who? Cj?
@@derpkipper yes
don't care tbh
@@callmera0uf560 get a job
idk how people can think CJ was at all in good faith. he insulted noodle, the person, so frequently-and would barely poke at his argument. (also keep in mind, CJ’s entire video takes place over maybe 10% of noodle’s total video?)
Insults are fine tbh
@@MotherLover1984not that I disagree but you can't expect people to take your points seriously as a consequence
He's a clout chaser, a floor pecker.
al hominem! Blud is literally the definition of the term 💀
@@benji6871 i never attacked the person, CJ. i said his argument was in bad faith because he used ad hominem, and did not truly argue against noodle or any of his points that well. please actually understand fallacies before coming to me. (ntm this isnt an argument, its more a hyperbolic comment on a video which already made the real argument.)
Maybe this is the video that will make me actually read the original twitter thread instead of taking people's word for it
one thing i hated about cjs video is how,, for like half of it he just goes “uhm,,, no one said that” and doesn’t show/mention when noodle shows a piece of uncut footage showing someone saying exactly that
It’s a really bad look that he goes on and on about Noodle cutting context, while actively cutting context.
@@king_poyo64 He
showed how noodle LITERALLY edited context out of a clip from a dev stream
@@justapunk6627 that's addressed here, just keep watching
As "uncut" as the videos he spliced together right?
@@anormalhumanhopefully8570 video*
and once again, that’s addressed here, please watch the video before commenting.
While I do think Archwizard has a point about noodles point being faulty and holding AAA companies not nearly as accountable as he should (To he clear im a huge fan of noodles content), I think that Archwizard's point just absolutely decolves as he starts raging and slandering noodle.
I remember when that video came out and i generally understood and even agreed with him throughout the first half, but actually had to turn the video off about halfway because of how absurd things were getting.
Couldn’t have said it better myself honestly. From my point of view, Noodle and CJ both lied and/or had a somewhat faulty analysis.
And in CJ’s initial video, I left a comment ultimately disagreeing with what Noodle posted but said I also thought his reputation shouldn’t be ruined by one bad video. CJ responded saying Noodle was a bad person regardless and I think was trying to imply I was a fanboy for thinking so. I then responded with I know how to criticize and I did so in the comment he replied to, then he said “missed the point entirely lmao”. So, I have no damn clue what CJ is trying to be.
@@nicholasshealy9040 that's very fair, and for once, in regards to your last point, I genuinely think hes just mad
@@rezz__emiya5948 Probably. I asked him to elaborate on what he meant when he said I “missed the point” and hasn’t responded back. I guess I should be led to believe there wasn’t a point to begin with.
Bro no I don’t think you understand. It does not matter if Noodle’s point is right or wrong. He actively created misinformation to try and push his argument. That invalidates it in any way shape or form.
You can take any stance you want on AAA gaming and expectations for the industry going forward, but you cannot beyond any doubt deny that it was SUPER slimy of noodle to do that.
@@orcastrike7750 I don't disagree with you, I like noodle based off the way he presents his content and less about what he's actually talking about, but simultaneously I disagree with your assertion that just because he misrepresented the facts that means his entire point is irrelevant.
Generally, I air on the side of AAA companies being greedy, entitled and incompetent, but that doesn't mean that everything that noodle said was wrong, and I can come to that conclusion due to having done my own research and not having my opinions spoon fed to me by TH-camrs.
cj just said "nobody asked" and didnt even prove it, gaslit everyone and he thought it was a life ruining argument
How was he gaslighting everyone?
@@VitaliyMilonov By loudly and repeatedly denying the existence of the initial comments that sparked Nelson's videos, pretty much intending to convince viewers not to look any further
@@Brownd55 He didn't deny anything. Nobody was saying that. Noodle came up with a straw man by re-editing a bunch of people's videos to paint them as an angry gamer mob, and then proceeded to gaslight his audience, which is also what you're trying to do right now.
@@Brownd55 If somebody made those comments why didn't Noodle reply to them, instead of creating those comments himself and then trying to come up with arguments to his own problem (which he didn't even succeed in, he has lost to his own straw man)?
@@VitaliyMilonov ...did you even watch this very video before commenting?
I watched part of CJ's video when it came out. I was stupid at the time. With Noodle having been one of my favorite TH-camrs at the time, I was so heartbroken and felt so goddamn deceived that I unsubscribed.
Now that I am doing research on this topic several months later and realize more and more how bad faith CJ was, I feel *even more* deceived (for context, I can be a very naive person when it comes to online opinions sometimes). I feel like I owe Noodle an apology even though I said nothing to him, or anything about this on the internet in general. Makes me wish this video came out sooner. I'm resubscribing to noodle after this, thank you SO MUCH for making this. I'm gonna go rewatch his Need for Speed video now.
Hell yeah, I too love Racist games!
R u slow
@@tonybamalaboni3868 sometimes, yeah
the nfs vid was so good lol
yeah i felt the exact same way and i also can be very naïve. the thing that struck me as odd and led me to finding this video was how noodle didn't say a word about the video even after people were asking for a response and to see what noodle really meant. it only occurred to me while rewatching that most of the video is ad hominem and things that don't really add or detract from either side's credibility and points
CJ: Ehrm No one said that BG3 raise a new standard
Scrennshots of tweets literally saying it exists
I think the crux of this controversy comes down to a misunderstanding. people are mistaking developers for publishers and shareholders. developers want to make a good game, and publishers and shareholders want your money, it’s that simple
“Telling them to do better without understanding what they the actually do” is literally what happens in the ending of the Falcon and the Winter Soldier
“You need to do better Senator”
i remember watching it and multiple times being like wtf is he talking abt??? the guy that made the liar video
I had to stop watching when he said “no one says BG3 is the new standard, he made that up” just objectively wrong
@@Supermac97451 I think the dude just really wanted attention
CJ plays the infamous clip of a game journalist failing the simple Cuphead tutorial in response to Noodle saying, "To be fair to these guys, they aren't journalists."
He's so fundamentally illiterate and/or desperate for any excuse to dunk on Noodle that he responded to "We should hold journalists to a higher standard than streamers and e-celebs" with a clip of a game journalist sucking at their job? Like he thought Noodle was actually saying, "Game journalists are all incredible and should never be criticised!"
I don't know what to think anymore.
I saw Noodle's video, then CJ's video, then I read a random comment congratulating CJ for being Pro-Communist or something, and then I realized I was on the internet, which is chock-full of unhinged clout farmers.
I really need to approach everything on the internet with skepticism.
Whats wrong with communism?
@@amongdrip8073 Uh... the fck you say?
@@amongdrip8073 it doesn't work very well and has some of the same issues as capitalism. to put it shortly, capitalism supposedly doesn't work because everyone's too selfish, but communism supposedly would work because people aren't selfish
Thank you, ChaosBlade33, for making a good video.
My least favorite thing about his video is how self-righteous CJ is about it, WHILE DOING THE EXACT SAME THING HE'S ACCUSING NOODLE OF. He's so smug while constantly making strawman arguments, cutting context of both Noodle and Nelson, and defending shitty industry practices. To top it all off, he defends and incites harassment which is only some shit that internet bottom-feeders do.
What context did CJ cut and what shitty practices did he defend?
@@VitaliyMilonovi am begging you: please just do something else. be with your friends and/or family! play a fun game! read a good book! take a walk! just, anything other than making forty whole comments with the sole purpose of baiting a reaction out of people. i guarantee the reactions you’re getting aren’t anger, but confused annoyance.
and i know if i reply after you reply, it’ll lead to an infinite loop that just drains me of will. so i’m just gonna post this and leave. you can choose to follow it, or not. that is your choice.
as for me, i’m off to enjoy the wonder and beauty life has to offer.
cheers!
@@lisatroiani6119 ffs, you can't be more insufferable than you already are.
1) There aren't forty but ten at best comments written by me, and, I assure you, it doesn't take an hour to write one or two questions.
2) There are far more comments from the same people trashing on CJ, but I don't see you begging *them* to stop.
3) The fact that you're calling "ASKING A QUESTION" (none of you have given an answer to so far) a bait says more about you than an answer you could have given instead. Next time simply f-bomb me, instead of giving some perverted pseudo-concerned variation of it, since you such a fan of saving time.
@@lisatroiani6119
Good lord, you can't be more insufferable than you already are.
1) There aren't forty but ten at best comments written by me, and, I assure you, it doesn't take an hour to write one or two questions.
2) There are far more comments from the same people trashing on CJ, but I don't see you begging *them* to stop.
3) The fact that you're calling "ASKING A QUESTION" (none of you have given an answer to so far) a bait says more about you than an answer you could have given instead. Next time simply f-bomb me, instead of giving some perverted pseudo-concerned variation of it, since you're such a big fan of saving time.
@@lisatroiani6119
Good lord, you can't be more insufferable than you already are.
1) There aren't forty but ten at best comments written by me, and, I assure you, it doesn't take an hour to write one or two questions.
2) There are far more comments from the same people trashing on CJ, but I don't see you begging *them* to stop.
3) The fact that you're calling "ASKING A QUESTION" (none of you have given an answer to so far) a bait says more about you than an answer you could have given instead. Next time simply f-bomb me, instead of giving some perverted pseudo-concerned variation of it, since you're such a fan of saving time.
The more I see from CJ the more I'm convinced he doesn't really care about the actual argument these people are trying to have and he's far more concerned with getting back at people he perceives as having wronged him by arguing against the prevailing opinion of his community. Like, seeing the way he talks about Noodle it seems like he wants to actually deplatform or "punish" him in some way, but every accusation of lying he makes is so weak it comes of as him finding any reason to discredit Noodle. It's actually very off putting how legitametly angry he seems to be at Noodle.
i replied without at all attacking him, trying to be kind and just being honest. his response was nothing but insults, and bragging about how big his video will be.
ye, he comes off as one of those people that are just desperately trying to be mad at something in the video
@@biggystupidbutmore6934 Have you considered that he might just be genuinely mad at something in the video?
@@VitaliyMilonovdude you are in these comments defending CJ with your life
It’s kinda sad
@@__Bry__ Have you *ever* considered that you MIGHT be wrong?
i legit was thinking of doing this myself because the shit this guy was saying legit pissed me the hell off
its like... an insanely complicated game of telephone where people are also arguing with each other for monetary benefit.
What's up, gamers.
Today we'll be reacting to the reaction of the reaction of the reaction...
Thank you for articulating this! I watched CJ’s vid and found it was completely missing the point but I couldn’t put my finger on what.
I feel so personally vindicated by this video. I watched the entire responce to noodle when it came out and genuinely couldn't beleive someone could make such a bad video in good faith and I felt like I was going crazy because people were eating it up
People don’t bother to put any critical thought into what they watch.
I knew being completely uninvested in this drama was going to pay off
edit: gotta edit this here rq, cj is so fucking annoying. i'm real tired right now so maybe that's what doing it, but him screaming about creating context set me off and now i don't like this guy one bit
Blizzard, a company with multiple massive massive industry leading live service games, and a publisher, obviously has more employees. God I wouldn't be surprised if they have more than 400 employees just keeping the lights on, no development.
The cycle continues
Yes unfortunately
the plot thickens
I feel like CJ's whole point of the video is to suggest that noodle is an industry plant
Basement rotting behavior
I think that Noodle is just a goon who spends all of his youtube profit on skunk, hence the observable decline in quality with his videos
@@doodleEeto the further you go in to Cj’s video, the more he becomes a raving lunatic
Noodle's not the only person working on his channel.
@Somebuffoononline a team of company bootlickers.
Have only watched the beginning but I 100 percent agree
I spent like hours trying to figure out if anything Cj said had merit because it kept bugging my brain (might be cuz I maybe have ADHD).
The answer for me is slightly yes but mostly no. Nearly all of his evidence either is wrong, misinterpreted, or inadvertently proves noodle right. It’s even stupider because he uses correct evidence and then somehow missed the actually good counter argument in front of him. He is right in feeling a slight bit of malice but it’s blown completely out of proportion. What really happened is that noodle thinks he’s smarter than people sometimes.
Noodle once went on a rage rant on SPV3, saying it’s badly designed and kinda sucks, and while he does praise it for adding lots of life to CE, the unintended message delivered is that SPV3 sucks and doesn’t deserve as much praise.
Noodle isn’t some big scammer, he just thinks he knows more which is like half true based on him doing better research and sometimes he gets angry at goofy people. So he’s a human being.
This is a good a point though I don’t think going for this wouldn’t have been a good thing for CJ’s video. The big problem is just that without tact this would functionally be a character attack which wouldn’t land well, and probably wouldn’t only worsen our view of CJ actually being able to take this “conversation” seriously. There definitely are ways to utilize this. The one I can think of is bring up the character of noodle, the very clearly over exaggerated version of himself , and tie it into how how he can get too deep into the character for the negative. You can then get into deconstructing some of his points through that lens. Obviously the problem is this requires a whole other style of video that CJ isn’t making, and arguably couldn’t make due to the specific nature of this whole situation (the response to a response to a response).
I will say I do fully side with noodle in his arguments with this, but if you wanted to get at him that’s how you’d do it.
I love this new genre of youtube: "Reviewing reviewers who review other reviewers". It's also devastating how manipulative people can be when they review things. Seems like CJ was in the wrong in many aspects with this situation. This is why youtubers who research should ALWAYS put their sources in their descriptions.
What I got from all of this garbage messy drama is:
- Noodle is trying to make sense of a discussion with so many diffrent interpretations of what both sides are saying which leads to other people thinking he's talking nonsense;
- Cj had good intentions *(with what he believed was true [but it does get kinda hard to see that when, as you pointed out, he was just straight up harassing Noodle])* but didn't convey his point properly and missed the points of others entirely, didn't do enough research and didn't bother to actually try to add anything to the discussion about AAA studios starting to release actually finished and good products other than just saying *''this is bad, stop doing that and make good games"* which is fine for bringing attention to the problem but not so much for actually bringing change since just saying this and nothing else does, on some level, show ignorance to the complexity and nuances of game developing.
Thanks for helping me understand wth was going on lol
subbed
CJ's is another wild case of "I agree but please, shut the fuck up."
Realistic expectations are not high expectations and thus when making a game if you have high expectations lower them to realistic expectations...
Isn't that...lowering your expectations?
Idk. I'm going to watch the rest of the video.
(they said it themselves...they wanted to pull the breaks and not make another game..... ( Ok so it cut off here and i don't know were the rest went))
Edited: 41:00
They say it themselves that they are done because they want to spend time with their family
But yeah...they don't want to make another one because they make them too big and ambitious. it eats too much of their time and....no one told them to make games that would suck out their souls.
They did that themselves.
(I said something ruder but when editing some how it got deleted)
(putting an extra response here in the hope it won't get deleted)
After watching the whole video...Im upset.
All these people are arguing for the same thing and The creators of High Five Rush still got canned. Just. .GOD DAMMIT
can't wait for a random youtuber to make
Chaosblade33 lied, Noodle never had a point.
(anyways jokes aside great video!)
what the no are you freaking serious???? I hope CJ responds because I can't take this whiplash over who is lying anymore.
I don't like CJ's approach and you can dismiss all his personal attacks or missguided arguments, but the exposed lies and misrepresentation of other people in Noodle's video are very clearly made in bad faith, at what point you can condense something without taking away the message? I think its important to make justice to a video when you are talking about it and watching Noodle's sources really makes him look bad, you can say he was just resuming, but he really made dirty to most of them just to prove his point that we were in the wrong all along, all you have to do is watch the source videos, in all of them the autors acknowledge indie devs are not the focus of this criticism, some even point out responses to the original Nelson's thread, which is either ignorant or selfish, I have nothing against the guy, I even feel empathy for him as someone into game development, but he missed the point and he deserves the criticism.
This wave of criticism was directed specifically for triple A studios, no, that's not a bad statement, this whole discussion didn't came because bg3 was too big and good, it came because bg3 was too good despite being an indie studio, it came because there was a contrast, the general perception of big studios is to expect very flawed games, that's why people is asking triple A studios whats their excuse, nobody is asking another indie devs to go big, or any studio to go big, they are asking why bigger studios that went for big deliver such poor quality results, look I don't want to defend CJ's video, I want to defend the integrity of videogames and developers who care about the industry as a form of art, and while it seems Nelson and Noodle does they are missing the point and scolding the wrong people, at least Nelson just missed the point, Noodle knew if he had to make everyone look bad
Again, saying this criticism was directed to tripple A studios specifically is not a bad statement, you are pointing out that a good game will have an impact on everyone, not just on triple A studios, but that doesn't change the fact the scold was aimed to big companies, a good game will have a huge impact and may rise the standard of people? maybe, but nobody is asking that for every game, we are asking that for games that cleary are not making the most with what they have and they are charging the most anyways
Noodle's video is a huge scold out of nowhere and if it wasn't for the misleading edits I would let it pass at least as uninformed, but is hard to believe someone who took all those videos to edit didn't watch them, the overall message is something I agree with, I just don't like to be called ignorant for something he is trying to make me think I forgot, I think that's part of why CJ's went to far with him, it really feels bad from Noodle and is coming from someone subcribed to him, you can say that CJ's is ignoring what doesn't fit his narrative, but the whole point of his video is that Noodle is doing the same, and there is truth on that, yeah, your video is biased for Noodle's and that's fine, but to properly attack CJ's arguments you have to go for Noodle's one as well which was absent here and left me waiting, not just the one most known edit, but the whole piece, again, many people featured in Noodle's video speak of the problem as a whole, not just Legacy, who got a part sliced not because it changed his argument but because it didn't fit the narrative of the whole video, not just his quote, even if you think the edit is not that important, which it is, and I like how you explained it, still weird Noodle shows the youtube player, that only shows he wanted to present it as if it was like that without editing, like you have to admit that if it isn't that important or changes nothing, why letting that?
This whole discussion makes me sad, because it comes from nowhere and divides people who are in the same band, I wish someone else besides CJ would call them out for this because he diminish his own arguments with his video, but I wish people would call out Noodle as much as CJ, because while you somewhat argumented against CJ you didn't argue against his best points because as a fan of Noodle I feel in the wrong siding with him
I'm going to remind you almost everything CJ complains about noodle doing, CJ did repeatedly in that video.
@@squidtheinconsistent I'm going to remind you that this doesn't dismiss Noodle's doing, again, I don't like Cj's approach, but we can't just deflect criticism to Noodle because the one who did it was being hipocrite, and by doing a strawman you are also doing the same, how about we focus on the main of the issue for once?
@@rily2885 and I'm going to remind you that doing what CJ did and misrepresenting and strawmanning what noodle said does not magically make what noodle said wrong.
You want to focus on the main issue? We've arrived. CJ never correctly addressed what Noodle was saying. His entire video is either him arguing against something that has been proven to have happened or continues to happen, or him claiming Noodle did something, misunderstanding what it is he actually did, and then doing to Noodle's video what he claims Noodle did (but didnt actually fucking do) to the dev's video.
Please, I implore you, if you're going to point fingers at people and make claims, at least know what the fuck you're talking about and not say dumbass shit like "doing a strawman". You look like an idiot, you sound like an idiot, and you ain't even got the facts straight.
Oh, and by distracting from the real main issue, you're being quite hypocritical. Isn't it fun how that works out?
It wouldn't work bc noodle was right you're welcome to try yourself tho
Not going to lie, I think Both Noodles and Cjs’s video were just not that good from an argumentative standpoint. They both just slander everyone else without focusing on an actual compelling argument even tho they both have a decent point.
The saga continues....
a dude made of cardboard cutout, an archwizard and a sword walk into a bar...
dont have a good punchline lol just sayin, its very suspicious that Cj is so willing to defend the opinions of an IGN journalist and two reactionary culture war gamer types over the ones made by an informed dev and/or someone working closely with one
15:49 why is bro (Cj) so mad for no reason
Terminally online behavior.
I love deconstructing the deconstruction of the deconstruction of a disscussion
can't wait to see the video about the mistakes in this video next year, and then the one about the mistakes in that one and so on
Thank god somebody else chimed in on this, you were a needed third response that I didnt know existed
The audio splice was NOT just removing Legacykilla's verbal mess-up. It was removing the context in which LegacyKilla's distinguishes between indie and triple-a gaming companies
The full quote, with [removed context] is this:
"-And that's fair to some degree [maybe to the indie and double-a developers, which probably Larian could be considered that, but I just don't think that's at all..], think it's kind of an excuse for the triple-a games industry."
Regardless of whether you agree with LegacyKilla and CJ, or not, to act like the only context Noodle is removing here is LegqcyKilla's verbal miss-speaking of the sentence is at best, a gross misunderstanding on your part, and/or negligent research into the topic, and at worst, purposeful malicious manipulation akin to the likes of Noodle himself.
To be clear, I'm not trying to discredit the rest of your video. You make both good and bad points, same as CJ, same as Noodle.
Im just trying to say that you shouldn't criticize CJ for doing something that you yourself are also clearly guilty of.
The whole issue with this argument is that noodle never specified a difference between AAA and AA, so, to noodle's point, that context is irrelevant. He only used the clip to show the community's insistence that BG3 DOES set a new standard for gaming. Which the quote DOES assert, regardless of his dismissal of indie games to the argument.
Which this video's creator does go into in depth. Explaining that the idea that indie/AA devs wouldn't be caught in this "new standard" is ludicrous. Because it is.
noodle did nothing wrong. And this creator addressed that context.
@@antonionapue961 that context is important. Especially when bringing false reasons on why MiMiMi games shut down.
Honestly, everyone here is in the bad, but noodle has to take must responsibility cuz he has the lager viewership.
okay but you need to mention that tf you don't just take someone's video splice it so that it looks like its just a piece of the original video and then upload that lol
@@mlgcactus1035actually I think the dude that made an hour long hit piece on noodle and got shittons of people to send him death threats that I'm still finding in dudes comments to this day over damn near completely fabricated and false complaints should be the one who's gotta take responsibility.
When quoting someone there is 0 reason you should be unlinking the audio from the video sources.
that doesn't mean noodle misrepresented the video
@@ihatetrollingGaming It is at the very least poor journalistic work.
@@ExcaliburVids not really, no
it's avoiding wasting your time
@@ihatetrollingGamingwell the cut should at least be blatant.
@ihatetrollingGaming unlinking the audio from the video is an extra action how is that not wasting time as apposed to just leaving it an extra second of video from the clip?
I guess I'll have to see the doc if I wanna see the breakdown of the section about the studios EA closed then.
My apologies to have propaged the misinformation by posting the link of CJ's video in said Noodle video's comments,. Even if this video did give me some good lessons, it ain't excusing its low quality, or my participation to spreding mis-information.
And to CJ, I shall say this, whatever if you were right or wrong, have a nice day!
Sooooo? What did the doc say?
@@VitaliyMilonov I haven't read it yet (As of July 19th 2024). Thanks for asking though!
And this video reminded why we as a society should never respect gamers
Gamers aren't the most oppressed group but they should be.
@@Above_Average_Joe315 BASED
@@Above_Average_Joe315 *BASED*
Yeah, totally not an echo-chamber behaviour, guys.
@@VitaliyMilonov it's called a bit.
Noodle might've relied on strawman arguments, misinterpreting other peoples' points, and deceptively editing interviews in order to defend AAA studios' anti-consumer business practices, but at least he wasn't rude!!
EDIT: I just watched Noodle's latest video where he spends 30 minutes whining about Egoraptor's 10 year old rant on Ocarina of Time, and the crux of the video is "Arin makes a number of fair and points... but he shouldn't have been so rude about it >:("
lol. lmao, even. I'm not going to sugarcoat it. Noodle is a massive tool.
oh no, this is just gonna keep going isn't it
I found CJ's video first and I already was pretty reluctant for a few reasons
1- I know that Noodle is worth his salt. Even if he missed something, a lot of his points still stand and he does a fair amount of research, which shows in his video about crunch culture. This might be a bias, but I would be lying if I said I don't trust the funny cartoon man.
2- Handling of audio. This is nitpicky from my end. CJ is too close to the microphone. He is sometimes too loud
3- He has such a way with words/s. I saw one snipet of his video and it was basically just him insulting and yelling
Then I found this video. Thank you for saving me 60 minutes of screams and insults
UGGGHH, JUST MAKE GOOD GAMES
ARGUMENT OVER
go back to doing your homework
That’s the problem. Dustin and CJ completely missed the entire point of ‘raised standard’ and thinking developers were the problem and not the workplace they (the developers) are working with the customers they are trying to entertain
@@KamiRoxy CJ specifically pointed out that every single game company Noodle brought up as an example got closed by their greedy owners and not because "angry customers demanded too much". Noodle, on the other hand, was doing exactly what every game journalist and damage control manager are doing every single time nowadays: blame the audience for their product's shitty quality. If CJ's point was "Don't look at game company names, because the people who made the good games have long left those companies", then Noodle's point was "Don't ask questions, just consume product and get exited for the next product".
@@VitaliyMilonov what I’m going to say next is meant to be 100% the kindest way I can with the softest tone possible:
2 issues. The first: noodle and Nelson were giving concerns about how game journalists and gamers at large were being unreasonable with how the process of a game is supposed to be done. BG3 is fantastic for what it was trying to do and it wonderful they achieved their game. Why they were able to do it was with an insane amount of help from D&D official and people who gave them the opportunity to. AAA studios do need to be held to higher standards absolutely. The major complains that are being fought with, and noodle and Nelson are being accused of for literally no reason and 0 evidence of, is that they are advocating for bad games. They are saying that the developers, the people making the games, are being hurt in the process.
The second part: if being greedy is wanting to see your family or have something outside of your job…I think the person who thinks that has some serious greed or Apathy for human health.
and that’s not even beginning on Dustin, the guy from IGN, just absolutely doing everything wrong a journalist could just to completely tear Nelson a new one because Nelson was the nearest punching bag that dared to question anyone around him.
Seriously…that video completely killed my faith IGN is even worth considering a reliable news source for upcoming stuff. It’s kinda depressing
@@KamiRoxy...cj said in the end, that the problem lies with greedy business people, who want to exploit human creativity and passion, and destroy it such that they can feed the lie of infinite growth. Thats, about as clear as that argument gets.
Basically
We can't hold AAA studios up to the standard of Baldurs Gate 3, it's a masterpiece that had a lot of love, time, care, and money put into it. However, we still need to hold them up to a better standard than a lot of the subpar games we've been getting recently. But not push the devs to crunch as hard as they do and to give more time for games to cook.
Ah yes, "Gamers are the bad guys actually". We have heard this story before. Wasn't particularly convincing the first time.
They're not bad guys, but PLEASE stop sending death threats to people.
im interested in the article mentioned in 24:08 but i can't find it in the description :(
Whoopsie, that completely slipped my mind, here it is
modecollapse.substack.com/p/raising-the-standard-lazy-devs-and
My takeaway: both raised some interesting points for me to think about
And that cj sounds like a complete asshole in regards to how he engages with this discourse. He gets very snarky and defensive on twitter. I think he needs to chill a bit
At this point I'd need to refresh myself on everything from the first video, before I take away anything else of value lol
Nevermind, this situation is all such a big mess
I swear, with some people...if they just yell loud enough and sound confident enough, all it takes for a lot of us to fall sucker to it is just that. None of us are immune to it, it seems.
@@derpkipper I am immune because the loud and sounding confident sets me off
the ones who speak calmer are the ones i get to hear out easier
hey, aren’t you also missing the point of CJ’s video, noodle’s video, and the greater issue of the argument at hand: billionaire companies prioritizing making money over good entertainment? late-stage capitalism as a core issue?
like I understand you talked about it briefly at the end, but shouldn’t that be the main focus of the argument? arguing with each other over the details of how each argument is presented just misses the overarching problem imo
Since you very politely asked, yeah, I think that is the most important thing I should have talked about and it kinda sucks how I glossed over it. However, I don't think arguing over the details of Cj's video is inherently a problem. Like he got a lot of obvious things wrong and that itself kinda distracts from the message he was trying to tell. And even though I didn't cover his analysis of capitalism, it was still really bad. His main conclusion was that AAA studios were making games bad ON PURPOSE so they can make more money, which makes absolutely no sense, in any shape or form. Even though we both agree that capitalism is bad, I think saying stuff like that misrepresents the true problems and it riles people up for no reason. Man, I wish I covered this because that was freaking weird.
@@chaosblade3358I don’t think summing up the issues in the AAA industry as “capitalism bad” was or is a good summary. In fact I find that a lot of AAA studios are getting in their own way to make money for no other reason…. That is except Ego. Greed is obviously a huge issue, but another issue is incompetency and pure ego on behalf of most higher ups. They don’t listen to what the fans want, they push for either what could make the most money, or what they think they want. When players don’t buy their game and instead choose better games such as indie or, dare I say, BG3, instead of learning from this they try the same get rich quick scheme over and over. It’s to the point where it feels like pure pride, unwilling to go back on your mistake so you double down, leading your company to die on this hill for no reason, besides want to make money to feed your ego.
Another big problem is the modern corporate structure, if a employee does a bad job they can be fired and replaced, but if a higher up is incompetent and causes a company to lose billions, it often falls onto everyone under them, as they’re the ones that get laid off while the higher up, the guy who actually caused the problem, gets a bonus.
Feel like a lot of issues could be fixed by “democracifying” big work places, private ownership only works practically when it’s a small start up or a smaller scale company, but these mega corporations are the size of literally countries, making them a defacto monopoly.
Also doesn’t help how modern Liberalism seems to dismiss Adam Smith’s anti-trust and other pro-worker arguments (haven’t read the wealth of nations so I’m not gonna claim this as fact) it should be the governments job to impose laws and higher taxes on bigger companies, though I don’t see that happening until lobbying (bribery) gets outlawed.
Personally I wouldn’t call myself a socialist but not really a capitalist either. There’s good in both systems but there’s flaws in both. (I need to read Wealth of nations and Communsit manifesto to get a better grasp of the two concepts, since I’m mostly going off videos which a lot of them have off echo chamber vibes).
There is something magical about stumbling into internet drama where the only part I saw was one reasonable take (Noodle's video) and the conclusion (this video).
THANK FUCK I tried watching the video and it hurt my brain
You have a small brain lol
the amount of people i've seen under noodle's video that watched CJ's video and, without trying to form their own opinion, *regurgitated it* by "calling out" nood on his "bullshit" is straight up rage inducing to me. is thinking for yourself just... dead? thank you for this video, swordsman.
Cj honestly just took advantage of the people who don’t like noodle already, just because they don’t agree with him and weaponized it to excuse himself on his insult rampage, everyone in arch wizard video and arch wizard himself keep failing to realize noodle and Nelson are on there side and aren’t saying jack about excusesing company’s as to why they shouldn’t make big games they both explained it’s a unreasonable standard that every game should be that massive not that it can’t happen,
I never even saw anything Noodle said as a lie like yeah BG was pretty bug free until act 3 then it was a mess but now its good. Like I watched both vids when they were new and my ass is like whats the point in the argument CJ is making then turns out this guy is a dumbass which now it all makes sense.
What was CJ's point?
First it was the OSC, now its this
I tried to watch wizards video and it was uhhhhh yikes. I couldn’t sit through it. I went to the guys channel and saw something on how art is not subjective which is a brain meltingly bad hot take.
Also it was funny how people in his comments were complaining about noodle calling them gamers when it’s clearly a joke
The wizard is right about Art though? "Subjective Art" is how we got rotting bananas taped to drywall in exhibitions.
Weird that you're willing to defend any of Noodles comments about gamers as "jokes" but no mention of Archwizard also being an entertainer and giving him the same leeway.
@@amongdrip8073 Did either of you watch the video?? He's not making a "hot take" hes misconstruing his own point to make a joke, hes not actually saying art isn't subjective its a joke. His actual point is that Art and science are intertwined. the visuals are extremely experimental and probably whatever the hell amongdrip thinks ""Subjective art"" is.
This is my favorite trilogy fr.
where am i
a stupid drama that happened last year about games getting bigger and AAA stuff needing more standards or something
You're on TH-cam.
Mental asylum apparently.
Im glad you made this video, but man, I just can't care about this drama.
You are the smartest person on earth
Thank you so much for this video. I'm glad I'm not the only one who realized CJ lied. CJ argues in bad faith and he insulted Noodle.
Where did CJ lie?
"cj bead caues he beg meanily"
@@VitaliyMilonov CJ has misrepresented Noodle's arguments multiple times throughout his video.
@@Sonic_The_Hedgedog_Reddit what arguments and misrepresented in what way?
@Somebuffoononline I'm not asking the video, unless that's your name. I'm trying to find out if you people (?) have reasoned yourselves into your positions and not simply repeating someone's opinion.
Every one should listen to my opinion because it is objectively correct, boulder gate three was unique it was allowed to be unique, AAA games are put on a tight leash, 28:29 which is why boulders gate three raised the stranded, as in AAA games should be made games before they are profit cows to Be milked.
I didn't like noodles video because he just blames gamers, for their miss guided criticism, targeting a small guy, and also his thesis which is games developers being forced to make games big because gamers like big, what gamers like is circumstances, ceo's and investors force the developers to make what gets back profit, big is an easy and safe way to matket your game, to a massive crowd, aj video is clearly by a crazy guy, but I still believe there's valid criticism, mostly on noodle not seeing the forest from the trees.
This truly was the Balding 3.
This isn't super relevant but I just realized that _of course_ gamers tm wouldn't see the problem in just telling developers and publishers to git gud
I'm starting to realize I'm watching a video surrounding Elden Ring, a game I've never played or care about.
The video isnt even centered on elden ring, it's on baldur's gate 3
In b4 this blows up
same ig
As someone who watched CJ's video but not Noodle's, I think you missed the mark on one point.
I'm currently at about 35 minutes into the video and I'm seeing you comment on how using Baldur's Gate 3 as a standard necessarily implies that it's about the scale, not only the quality. What you said was:
"I understand what Destin and CJ are trying to say. They don't necessarily want every game exactly like Baldur's Gate 3. But if you told me from this day forward, every game that I play will be a 10 out of 10 game, then that would obviously be the coolest thing to ever happen, right? The problem with this, though, is that we live in the real world. Games don't come from magic, they have to be carefully crafted with passion and hard work, which we often take for granted now."
What you mean is, obviously people want good games, it wouldn't make sense if developers wanted to make games bad, right? Feel free to correct me if my interpretation is wrong... but I think this take ignores a very ugly aspect of the AAA industry.
Remember how a lot of these people you are responding to have talked about being tired of microtransactions? That's a huge part of the problem. Just like you said in the same video:
"Another example is where Noodle says 'money talks, and we're loud', and then CJ presents a graph about interests? His point is that companies make a lot of money, not how much people play their game."
Like, YEAH. Diablo 4 is HATED by many longtime fans of the franchise, which doesn't negate the fact the game made unfathomable amounts of money. Companies are pumping games that are not only bad, but PREDATORY, and being rewarded for it.
There's a reason why there isn't a whole lot of people bringing up The Last of Us Part 2 as an example of the decline of the modern AAA industry. It's because that game, despite having a lot of haters, is only arguably bad in terms of misguided writing or game design choices. It's undeniable they tried and put their hearts into that game. It's not just about the lack of quality in modern games, but about the feeling that most companies don't even seem to try nowadays.
What are the examples people generally bring up when talking about the sad state of the AAA industry? As mentioned before, Diablo 4, but also the Assassin's Creed franchise, the Call of Duty franchise - for examples from the current year we have Skull and Bones, Suicide Squad: Kill the Justice League, Dragon's Dogma 2, and so goes on.
Sure, not all bad modern AAA games have microtransactions. But it's still a very prominent problem in the industry that tends to allow companies to financially get away with bad games, and as such they have much less motivation to try.
And that's how I interpreted people saying Baldur's Gate 3 is a new standard for the industry. Games that don't use predatory monetization or are increasingly safe and stale aren't as common as they used to be, especially ones that are actually good. I absolutely do not think that's because the DEVELOPERS are lazy and don't care, but definitely because the HIGHER-UPS are lazy and don't care.
That specific point aside, good video.
pretty helpful to watch Noodle's video btw
i just want you to realize
you have made a better-formed argument than cj
because you've actually fucking thought about it
instead of just getting mad over an issue you made up
@@ihatetrollingGaming He made exactly the same argument CJ has made. Literally the same.
Dragons Dogma 2 is fantastic >:(
@@PunishedDad I admit I haven't played it and just heard a lot of negativity surrounding the game's handling of microtransactions. I haven't played the vast majority of the games I mentioned, actually. Even though not playing some of those should be understandable lol
I really do not think CJ is watching this video. =P
All of you lied. I was right
Nuh uh, not true
I kinda like this debate saga thing cus it's nice to see multiple points! After watching, I agree wholeheartedly on the fact that people are saying devs are "wanting bad games" cus that's not true. It's clear the passion that's being put forward, despite the crunch and conditions that higher-ups put on the developers. It may be anecdotal, but I've seen multiple sentiments about lazy DLC and predatory microtransactions, and sadly see people not understand it's the publishers/higher-ups making these decisions to make as much money as possible. So, shifting the blame to the devs is scummy.
Great video! I agreed with CJ at first but realized later on that I got rage-baited... we need to encourage better working conditions and more time for the actual developers to work, so that they can prioritize what matters, making what they want to make that doesn't treat the customer with contempt. Also, plz make that vid on capitalism and art... it sounds too interesting to miss out on!
Replying to specify that it's the publishers and executive positions making decisions to treat the customer with contempt... somehow still had that knee jerk response my bad
Thank you for making this video. I had just recently watched CJ's video today and while I wasn't fully invested in it, trying to simplify stances as noodle wants to encourage games to not rely on complexity and leniency for creativity, and CJ wanted to put the burden on triple A to make good games, God bless the algorithm for allowing me to find this video.
I'm anticipating the response to this video responding to a response video of a response.
Man, I feel played. I think I believed CJ just because he was A. someone with explicitly anti-capitalist views, which I also am and B. someone who seemed less... I dunno, jokey? More serious, less approachable. And he was saying something negative about a TH-camr I liked in a way that made me feel defensive, and I have a tendency to believe that whatever feels the worst must be true. I didn't like when CJ started getting personal and calling Noodle greedy and spineless, especially because it seemed so counter to opinions Noodle's voiced in the past, especially his feelings about how normalized and dangerous crunch is in the game industry. I REALLY didn't like when we straight up called him the r-slur. I thought about pointing it out in my comment, but I wasn't sure if CJ or anyone else would actually listen.
...In retrospect, I'm surprised I even payed attention to this whole argument. I've never played BG3 (though I would like to), most games I play and love are indie games. My favorites right now are Slay the Princess and ULTRAKILL.
Check out Nightmare Reaper. I randomly came across it recently and it's great. it's an FPS but subverted really well. Not nearly as skill intensive as ULTRAKILL tho.
This has gone from a dude on twitter talking about a game, to a game journalist telling him he’s wrong, to noddle defending the first guy, to another TH-camr tearing down noddles response, to you responding to that guy video. Who’s going to rip this guy a new one so we can keep this chain going until we forget why we’re here! ( JOKE! DO NOT DO! )
Informative video, now's a good time for me to return to Baldur's Gate Slop Drama Part 3
(I still haven't played the game LMAO)
can't wait for a fourth guy response to this video
Ultimately it all comes down to Xavier making a bunch of criticisms about the gaming industry and blaming the consumers instead of saying "this all needs to change so we can have more masterpieces like bg3"
They also need to be specific because some devs will take it as people wanting more games with 17000 different endings instead of just a good game
@@k0metz590 The process of making bg3 be so open ended made it so it has a large amount of endings. Which is in reality not a bunch of different endings but a combination of different plot threads resolving in different ways. Like Astarion's ending can be one of a few different options.
Die, Ascend, Don't ascend and free vampires, Don't ascend and don't fee vampires.
Now you take that and you multiply it by the number of other possible options from the other party members endings as well as other character endings in general and you get a high number.
People really do not care about there being lots of endings for bg3 at all. They care about a well polished narrative that gives people plenty of freedom of choice.
@@devastatheseeker9967 did you just... took my comment literally...?
"devs are on your side" name 1 time nintendo has been for the fans
He specifically said "devs." Not the entire company as a whole.
0:50 “Now if you couldn’t tell, i didn’t really like this video.”
[like button glows]
i... really fucking hate this new feature
Ah yes, the next episode of "TH-cam recommendation drama"
I know of Noodle only from his Please Stop Talking appearances and said BG3 video since it was recommended on YT
Then got the CJ video and now this
What will happen on the next episode (for which I'll also be at least a month behind)
Just don't believe everything you see online.
It your time to be the main character.
For bertter or for worse
cj's pretty funny actually
The funniest part of CJ's video was calling Noodle "demonic" over cutting 3 seconds from a video that didn't really add anything
25:38 I listen to smosh reddit stories so I thought TH-cam broke for a minute ☠️
Good points. Also, I just love that in one moment in CJ's video, he smokes a bong lmao
This has not made the decision to get back into gamedev easy. Leaning towards no.
26:55 look it's me!
Wow, A Feature length cope about an opposing party's legitimate criticism of that disingenuous excuse of a video,
complaining about petty remarks to paint the target as bad faith,
completely ignoring valid points on a flimsy basis,
playing up minor discrepancies as deceit,
completely manufactures rebuttals by missing the point of the criticism in the first place *multiple* times.
admits to bias,
expects to be taken seriously.
Its all here folks! and ripe for the picking!
Has to be 16 making this video bruh
Just watched this video and literally exactly what i thought.
Are you 12 or something? That's the best counterpoint you can come up with?
The idea that a single comment from a random person on the internet makes something not a strawman is ridiculous and makes the entire idea of a strawman fallacy impossible, I can find a single person saying anything, something is a strawman when either a large group of people or significant people like say a politician are making a claim and it is being misrepresented.
A strawman argument is a ridiculous version of an argument that is easier to defeat. If it is a legitimate argument by someone, it isn't a strawman. The issue then is that they simply argued against that person that commented, not other people.
But if you state "no-one ever said this", then...yeah, even a single comment saying that counts as a counterpoint.
@@FFKonoko "no-one ever said this" is a common hyperbolic response to straw men arguments, nobody actually means "no-one" its obvious to any sane person that of the 7 billion people on the planet at least one of them is saying any brain dead thing, to bring up that a random individual actually did say it is just an attempt at getting "gotcha" points.
the way that he shows this is very silly-but acting like people werent saying they were expecting bg3 sized rpgs regularly is silly. they absolutely were, and im certain you can find ideas like this near everywhere.
the point is: nelson was addressing something that existed, and then (thanks to the IGN guy), that point was brought up even more-then noodle responded to him. noodle didn’t “strawman” anyone, he was responding to a common argument-one many of us (including myself) have heard.
@lakthederg I genuinely don't think there is a significant amount of people that expected rpgs the size of bg3, most of what I have seen have talked about the raised bar on attention to detail.
@@ExcaliburVids None of the guys Noodle has shown - that's for sure.
Your video is much more "I assume/think" what different people wanted to say and not what they actually said or argued about. You point at cuts out of context that are explained why they make the argument different and you just say "yeah, they don't", and move on.
I honestly don't think you're really adding anything here and just trying to ride the drama - sorry
Yes, trying to ride the drama of over half a year ago. It's dead drama, but he considered it an important enough discussion to bring back to the spotlight.
The video is very well structured, and he's pretty fluent with his points. I legitimately don't know how you can't understand his main point.
I'm pretty sure he literally included a thumbnail of a video about how bg3 should be the new standard