Chuck shooting strays at Gavin on that Sepheroth take down. Started off talking about how Roy is a bad idea for Leo, then he flipped to destroying Seph as a character. 🤣 He found his way back but it took him a minute. Bro... chuck is going off! This episode is wild! 😂
This man has HAD IT! Honestly feels great to hear someone venting not hold back about the frustrating parts of this game, makes it so the rest of us don't have to
Yep I think it's the best episode of Tweek talks ever, like I really loved how straight and honestly Chuck expressed himself, no filters not anything just the pure godamn truth!
Thank god charles said it, super frustrating to watch top players essentially give up on certain problem characters. Shoutouts to riddles for working on the cloud
This was an awesome episode, maybe because it was a discussion off the back of a tournament that wasn't all about results. My god Charles went OFF this episode, very interesting to see. He wanted to grab Tweek by the shoulders and shake him. Great seeing the different perspectives. I also fuck with everything Marcus was saying. Truly felt wise (Would have loved to hear more thoughts about Shinymark as that was a very surprising and interesting win)
I agree with charles. Seems like leo is just playing for fun tbh. He keeps saying he wants to win but if he really does he would choose logically correct characters. Also about the fun aspect, is it more fun to lose? or win. This was one of the best episodes
to me seems like Leo thinks so highly of his fundamentals in the game that he can win with chars who are not good in the meta. as a leo stan, i personally believe his fundamentals are some of the best in the world. seeing the cracked shi he did when he dominated with joker for a while to his period of winning with byleth to pulling top 8 at a tournament with a debut character like roy support this. that being said, i really do think it will only get him so far. from the period leo dominated, so many other talented players have gotten so much better and put in tons of hours with a single character who are actually meta. light, shadic, spargo, tweek, sonix, miya, yoshidora, acola, etc. leo’s fundamentals and raw talent for the game will not carry him to victory against these players with non meta characters, especially chars he’s just starting to play in the competitive scene like roy.
@@teddginn1 The game is way too janky and inconsistent for whatever you say to matter, and Leo knows it. He picked up Roy because he knew that character fits into the new wacky early-kill meta better than Joker.
@@justice8718 oh man i love guys like you. coming onto the internet so angry for no reason you can clearly tell you got something go on in your personal life that you’re taking out on here. shits hilarious tbh. anyways, my pile of text really discusses two aspects of the game being important. a player’s fundamental skills of the game and their character choice. if you’re suggesting neither of those matter to any extent because “the game is janky and inconsistent”, then idk what else to call you other than a dumbass lol. also, inherently contradictory when you make a point about *character selection* right after lmao. maybe you didn’t express what you were trying to say well enough, so you can angrily try again if you want.
Oh god finally someone saying the harsh damn truth about your job and getting things done even when you don't enjoy them. Keep sitting these jims on their proper places, Chuck! 🤣🤣 This truly was a legendary show, keep it up!
My gawd I lmao when Tweek said yikes to choosing ego over life. Real talk, Charles is my twin in the way he views competition - almost my twin. 100% when pro players choose certain routes, they are choosing joy over winning. They can try things at lesser tournaments. On big stages, if they avoid Nairo's choose-to-lose characters, I immediately temper my expectations. I don't expect them to win or assume they wanna win above all else. When Tweek chooses Sephiroth, I change from watching for the win to watching to enjoy his playstyle. For Leo, same thing. I just enjoy watching him and assume he's riding out Ult to see what's next. It's their life. I just try to enjoy the gameplay.
I like how Charles didnt think of the possibility that Roy isnt supposed to be used in some of these matchups and Leo was just forcing all Roy for this specific tourney in order to train the character for the future.
There's one thing I've never understood about what people expect Leo to do, everyone talks about proven/meta characters, everyone's talking about "on paper" or thing like that as if Leo didnt just play whatever the hell he wants and do well with it... since always. Yes he sometimes gives in to the darkside like he did with Sm4sh Bayo but he's a player that has always played what he finds fun first and then ends up redefying the meta on his own, this is specially true in Ultimate, no one cared about Ike, he took him to the peak, no one knew what to do with Joker, he dominated for years, everyone was calling Byleth mid, he dominated with him as well, same with shit like reverse 3-0 Riddles with Marth and picking up Corrin and beating Sonix, he just does what he wants and finds fun, it's been that way since Ultimate released. The real thing here is how much effort and time Leo's willing to put into the character because I have no doubt in my mind that if Leo commits, like really commits to Roy, his entire meta/MU chart will change and we will see some crazy shit, Leo's never been an "on paper guy" during Ultimate, he's always been the "I'm that guy" kind of player, so numbers, theorycrafting and all that stuff does not matter, he will push any character he wants as much as he wants and then reach peak gameplay or drop it. I dont think a Joker/Roy chart works, at all, but I think Leo's trying to move away from Joker and at this point, it may be the healthiest choice, everyone expect him to play perfectly when he's playing Joker with a character as taxing and technical as him, I'd rather have Leo play something less technical that it gives him the opportunity to play 2 characters at their fullest, instead of 1.5, because we all have to accept that Leo simply is not a solo main kind of player anymore.
The funny thing about Roy is that he is a technical character. He’s simply better than Joker and Mythra, and has weird kill confirms that Leo easily picked up on.
30:00 It’s literally Riddles first time pulling out Cloud in tournament and Tweek/Pink are expecting miracles. At least Riddles is choosing a viable counter-pick while Tweek is choosing to lose with Seph because “he’s cool”. May be a hot take but Seph isn’t exciting to play or watch plus the character is hot ass. I’ve left maybe one or two comments over the entirety of the podcast’s existence so far but I just can’t agree with Tweek’s or Pink’s mindset at all here about Riddle’s Cloud.
One thing I feel is important as well is identity. When I think about Tweek I iremember some amazing Diddy Kong clips. He, Leo, Riddles and Kola could all spend time refining cloud but whenever I think about Cloud the first person coming to my mind will always be Sparg0. Tweek is famous for his Diddy Kong, Leos Joker and Byleth are legendary etc - Leo and Tweek are not just players but they have massive popularity based on their individuality. Conforming to the meta and abandoning their style is not something I really would like them to do
I don’t think he was saying to abandon Diddy or his identity; just to pick up a better secondary lol dude got double eliminated by Steve 3-0 3-0 at his last big tourney….
I really enjoyed this episode, it got deeper than most episodes where you just go through tournament results and instead it created an interesting argument. Much move yall! Also we DO need that "On paper" shirt lmao that would be great
I think along with being the best, Leo has always thought about good smash. Also I respect him going Roy because we all saw how busted Roy once was and people don’t feel that way anymore, so maybe he’s tryna explore that again
Pink is so right at 49:48... Even the characters we think of as super broken that everyone should simply pick up are themselves brought into relevance by one particularly successful top player. *No one* was talking about cloud in this way until Sparg0 proved it could be done. Maybe Sparg0 is just good? GnW, no one thought was that good until Miya started doing exceptionally well. Frankly, I still don't think GnW is that good, hes just pretty simple to optimize, and Miya has laid out the gameplan for everyone to copy. But no one was doing it like them before they did it. Even Steve, we havent seen anyone come close to Acolas results with the character. Top players aren't factory workers, they're a lot more like artists or musicians. There's a reason Tweek said he found playing Cloud "ugly". There's a subjective almost aesthetic aspect to this that can't be reduced to simple competitive success.
true tweek has said something like this before, I think in some episode or stream about tier lists - basically from what I remember, that there are just not enough smash ultimate players for us to really know the upper limits of all characters, because we don't have like a Skyjay for every character to let us know how good they really could be
I've said this before on other videos, but players matter as much as, if not more, than characters. You could theoretically make a tier list based solely on stats: frame data, weight, speed, hitboxes/hurtboxes, etc. It would look a bit different than most tier list, which take tournament results into account. Too many extenuating circumstances to have an accurate list in either case, which is why tier lists change.
Bro, Charles is spitting this episode! Honestly, kudos to the whole squad for having the openness and vulnerability to have a friendly argument on camera. One of the best episodes in a while.
Charles is exactly right on the Cloud segment of this podcast. I hate, hate, hate that Seph sucks. But he does. And if it’s about winning and potentially taking Steve down, Cloud is the right pick to invest in
RE: Haz's counter: no, toughing through hard matchups is not analogous to doing shit you don't wanna do but have to do. The key is whether you "have" to do it. That phrase is used for when there is no known, better way to do something. It's shitty work, but you gotta do it. Choosing to do some work in a more difficult manner than required will get you reprimanded in most jobs because bottom line makes managers favor efficiency. Charles can't go to work with a hammer and say everything is a nail.
Thank you for spitting facts Charles!!!!!! When smash is your JOB, your goal to be should be to "WIN" (we all have parts of our job we don't like, lol playing cloud is not the end of the world).
People have characters they gel with better for the most part it’s as simple as that Not everyone has the unique aptitude to output 100% of their skill into every character
This "listen to your brain or your heart" argument is kind of interesting, but at the same time Im not the biggest on it. You doing anything in your life if you have the choice of two things, one of which you enjoy and the other you dont, why not go for the answer you like. If you only want to win, you have no reason to pick anyone else but Steve. Even his worst MUs are even at worst and his ceiling is infinite with a really low floor, so if we ONLY care about winning, everyone should play Steve People playing *their* characters is cool though and makes for a more interesting game and gives us storylines I respect Chuck and how much he cares but ultimately I do prefer people playing and pushing characters they like, and thats how we see performances like Skyjay, Toriguri and Armadillo popping off with these characters that (at least in one point) were considered bottom 10 Also Tweek's remark about only doing stuff that "looks nice" is the most I have ever resonated with a random notion like that. I love doing cool stuff, it's my reason to play fighting games, so if you take that away, you remove my reason to play
Also I loved the little discussion that appeared talking about character tryouts. I think it kinda comes down to what people value and Tweek values inspiring Gameplay while Charles values more the victory screen. And while Leo‘s Roy probably had some inspiring sequences, long term it probably doesn‘t bring him closer to the victory screen. However the Riddles Cloud, while arguably being very bland, long term investing into Cloud does bring him closer to a consistent victory screen.
Ngl though, sometimes G&W is fun in a sadistic sort of way. I made a Falcon player at my locals ragequit because I simply did not let him play the game
@@zake64 as a falco main…ima put emphasis on the sadistic part of you playing GnW 😂. That character just has no sauce man 😂 it’s just bacon and bombs 😂
41:34 Because of the ecosystem in the Smash community, I disagree that the job of a pro player, in this context making money, is winning tournaments. Its a big part of it, but being Rank 1 in this game doesn't guarantee you to be a appealing pro. An extreme example, probably Gacky makes more money than the four horsemen, or anyone in the top 10. In this ecosystem, popularity is the most important factor for a pro player, and trying the best with a character that is popular among the general viewers, is a not a bad idea.
Dang Chuck went full on doomer in this episode. Snake just won a major. Banjo got 4th, and Yoshi got 3rd. The facts simply don't support the idea that you have to play the best possible character to win events.
Snake is one of the absolute best characters in the game imo, like top 3, and I feel like more people will agree by the end of the year. But yes, Banjo doing well(5th not 4th, but doesn't change much) and Yoshi doing well proves the meta has quite a decent amount of variety.
@@legrandliseurtri7495 this just illustrates my point I made in a different comment: NO ONE was saying Snake was this good until he had these sorts of results. A lot of people still don't. Isn't it possible that the snake players (really we're mostly talking about Hurt and AK here) are just doing really well?
@@trombonegamer14 We do have several other relevant Snake players, like Dio, Chronos, MVD, Alandiss, ect. Personally, even before Hurt's run at Delta 5, I would watch any set with Snake and think: ''this character should be able to accomplish anything in the right hands, so much about him is insanely good''.
Great episode! Loved Charles prodding Tweek and Leo. And then it made Tweek really open up about how he sees the game. Some of it he’s said before, but a lot of it was pretty deep! I agree with a lot of what he said very strongly.
Watching Leo play Roy was cool but you could tell he was playing him like Marth or Lucina. I get that feeling I love Roy but can’t play him because Ive played too much Marth and Ike. Specifically for the Kazuya matchup, I don’t understand why he doesn’t stick to Marth. His floatiness allows him to stay just outside of Kazuya’s threat bubble and Kazuya is easy to tipper so that’s not even a problem for once.
Nah, I saw that game, Leo sat there let him be whatever buffs he wanted and then cooked the Hero. “Take your time, read the menu carefully, so will I… get cooked”
I think Tweek is probably the best fundamentals/tech labber combination we have ever seen in Smash Ultimate, and that‘s why I think he should play Sheik or Mega Man. I think both characters are super broken but require both time in the lab as well as solid neutral. Obviously I‘m not taking into consideration that he has the Motivation to do it, because I don‘t think does. Apart from that I think Toriguri should just play snake or smth that ain‘t fucking Banjo, even if he is finding success with it. Oh, and for some reason I have a feeling that Asimo could go crazy on Wolf.
I like Charles argument, and I think he is 100% correct. That said, I think he misses a valuable point. You have to remember the Hungrybox argument of "We have enough data in front of us now, that the educated prediction is that if the large majority of professional players start playing Steve and Sonic, then the large majority of viewers are just going to watch something else. And the simple fact is when they go, the sponsors go." Tweak, as a viewer, thank you for giving us content worth watching. Hope one day you earn the Dub you deserve.
this is character pick conversation is exactly why Zackray's Pit is so good - he seems to obviously and openly enjoy playing the character and it gels with him and he can make magic happen because of that
Leo needs to pick up young link. Trust. 1st. Yink has endless mix and swag. There are so many combo routes to explore. Leo can show y'all the vision. 2. He beats kazuya. It'll force riddles to play Terry. Yink doesn't beat terry tho.
I think BECAUSE it’s his career, tweek plays Diddy Kong. I was getting my engineering degree and would have made a killing, but I switched to chemistry because I loved it. I make about half the salary I would have, but I love what I do. If tweek played sonic, sure he might win more. But he wouldn’t enjoy what he does any more. He wouldn’t have passion for the game, it would just be a way to make money. Instead he does what he loves and plays Diddy Money/winning is not the end all be all of competing for someone who treats it as a career. I have to disagree with Charles, it’s because it’s their careers that tweek and Leo should go who feels good and they get enjoyment out of. As long as they can still pay the bills.
I’ve done shitty jobs in food service to get by when I need to. I don’t know Charles but property management might be one of those jobs for him right now. And of course there’s a time and place for those! But if Leo and tweek are not in that place and don’t have to do shitty jobs (playing a character they don’t like), I don’t see why to knock them for it. If they were losing in pools all the time and couldn’t pay the bills then they should go Steve. But they aren’t
I assume you mean that it's becuase Tweek and Leo have the talent to go with who they feel good with and get enjoyment out of (and win) that they have careers.
Bro this episode was GREAT, Charles went off. But fr I really fuck with these more 'meta' discussions, it's often more interesting than having a "tournament recap" type episode. I remember Haz saying something to the same effect in a previous episode.
Damn I thought Leo’s Roy was sick. The riddles set felt like he lost on stage picks more so and shinymark one was also really doable. Plus a decent mu against sonic and rob
I think a super big dimension missing in this convo that Charles may be missing is fit. While on paper cloud or whoever else may be the better pick for players like tweek and Leo it may actually work against them in the long run cuase the character doesn’t FIT their playstyle. I think that’s what pink was getting at by “it factor” I think while fit can get better over time it’s ultimately factors that are a lot of times outside of the game that decide if your playstyle truly fits a character. It’s not always about fun vs win
as a side note I'm a 2-2er so my opinion is whatever - but I main a mid-tier and I had a moment a couple years ago where I was like "I should pick up a high-tier" and started playing Lucina but although I've sunk more time into her than anyone else besides my main she remains my 4th best character, despite the fact that I actually have a lot of fun with her. it probably differs at the top of top level play but people do just have natural inclinations.
I just want Charles to know I picked up game and watch because he recommended it a long while back. It’s somewhat working too, I’m starting to beat people.
Kinda hate how we are going down the route of dooming about the meta when there has been a different major winner for every major this year and not a single one played the same character. You can try to argue that they are top tier but that is reacting really harshly to Corrin when she is simply anti-meta. That isn't even going into all the characters that have made top 8 this year. Legit is a super diverse meta with Link and Ike even making top 8 of Kowloon 10. FP2 dooming in the year 2024 is honestly providing nothing to the conversation.
@@justice8718it is when those players are consistent players vs the rest of the field. They are all clearly above the rest of the pack rn and then are trading with each other.
@@Boolahan I guess that's why he's been having mediocre results ever since he started to learn Steve and focus more on Min Min... while he was doing great last year with almost solo Rosa.
![[TH] 2024 PMSL SEA Finals D2 | Fall | ต้องรักษาฟอร์ม อย่ายอมให้ใครแซง](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/x38QsGn7A3M/mqdefault.jpg)
Chuck shooting strays at Gavin on that Sepheroth take down. Started off talking about how Roy is a bad idea for Leo, then he flipped to destroying Seph as a character. 🤣 He found his way back but it took him a minute. Bro... chuck is going off! This episode is wild! 😂
This man has HAD IT! Honestly feels great to hear someone venting not hold back about the frustrating parts of this game, makes it so the rest of us don't have to
Yep I think it's the best episode of Tweek talks ever, like I really loved how straight and honestly Chuck expressed himself, no filters not anything just the pure godamn truth!
🐐 Charles
Not a stray lmao he looked bro in the eyes thru discord. Direct call out 🤣
Loved it. Chuck NasTEE
Charles has a fire inside him this episode
🐐 shit
we don't hear enough of his based rants
It must be frustrating watching his friends lose on the CSS time and time again
Thank god charles said it, super frustrating to watch top players essentially give up on certain problem characters. Shoutouts to riddles for working on the cloud
fax
"Gavin tried to go Sephiroth, that was funny" lmao
This was an awesome episode, maybe because it was a discussion off the back of a tournament that wasn't all about results. My god Charles went OFF this episode, very interesting to see. He wanted to grab Tweek by the shoulders and shake him. Great seeing the different perspectives.
I also fuck with everything Marcus was saying. Truly felt wise
(Would have loved to hear more thoughts about Shinymark as that was a very surprising and interesting win)
Charles had TIME today 😂 said I’m getting all these feelings off my chest
I agree with charles. Seems like leo is just playing for fun tbh. He keeps saying he wants to win but if he really does he would choose logically correct characters. Also about the fun aspect, is it more fun to lose? or win. This was one of the best episodes
to me seems like Leo thinks so highly of his fundamentals in the game that he can win with chars who are not good in the meta. as a leo stan, i personally believe his fundamentals are some of the best in the world. seeing the cracked shi he did when he dominated with joker for a while to his period of winning with byleth to pulling top 8 at a tournament with a debut character like roy support this.
that being said, i really do think it will only get him so far. from the period leo dominated, so many other talented players have gotten so much better and put in tons of hours with a single character who are actually meta. light, shadic, spargo, tweek, sonix, miya, yoshidora, acola, etc. leo’s fundamentals and raw talent for the game will not carry him to victory against these players with non meta characters, especially chars he’s just starting to play in the competitive scene like roy.
@@teddginn1 The game is way too janky and inconsistent for whatever you say to matter, and Leo knows it.
He picked up Roy because he knew that character fits into the new wacky early-kill meta better than Joker.
@@justice8718 use your words and try to be more specific buddy, what exactly do you mean by “whatever you say”?
@@teddginn1 All of piles of text you wrote is simply worthless. Also, passive Roy is far more stupidly broken than Joker and Aegis for some reason.
@@justice8718 oh man i love guys like you. coming onto the internet so angry for no reason you can clearly tell you got something go on in your personal life that you’re taking out on here. shits hilarious tbh.
anyways, my pile of text really discusses two aspects of the game being important. a player’s fundamental skills of the game and their character choice. if you’re suggesting neither of those matter to any extent because “the game is janky and inconsistent”, then idk what else to call you other than a dumbass lol. also, inherently contradictory when you make a point about *character selection* right after lmao. maybe you didn’t express what you were trying to say well enough, so you can angrily try again if you want.
Chuck listened to the part last week about the FF7 tattoo and came here to kill that idea this week lmao
I feel your pain Charles, I really feel it.
Great to see the full squad back at it again! Congrats to Shinymark for winning Diamond Dust. Pika BUSTED
ESAM cringe
@@thelocs5935 *bald
@@nathanlevesque7812 he's got the three C's. Cringe, Cuck, alopeCia
Maybe I zoned out but I felt like they barely talked about him
@@extonjonas6820 yeah they didn't talk much about Shinymark's W which is no big deal
It ain’t a true tweek talks episode if pink ain’t laughing in the intro 😂
Oh god finally someone saying the harsh damn truth about your job and getting things done even when you don't enjoy them. Keep sitting these jims on their proper places, Chuck! 🤣🤣
This truly was a legendary show, keep it up!
My gawd I lmao when Tweek said yikes to choosing ego over life.
Real talk, Charles is my twin in the way he views competition - almost my twin. 100% when pro players choose certain routes, they are choosing joy over winning. They can try things at lesser tournaments. On big stages, if they avoid Nairo's choose-to-lose characters, I immediately temper my expectations. I don't expect them to win or assume they wanna win above all else.
When Tweek chooses Sephiroth, I change from watching for the win to watching to enjoy his playstyle. For Leo, same thing. I just enjoy watching him and assume he's riding out Ult to see what's next.
It's their life. I just try to enjoy the gameplay.
33:50 charles is RAW for laying it out like that
Finally a REAL POD!!! Chuck was on ONE TODAY😂
Charles entered one tournament only in doubles over a week ago and he's still this heated. Yeesh
He's a self admitted salt-shaker so I doubt he would argue with you about it anyways haha
I could listen to charles rant all day
I like how Charles didnt think of the possibility that Roy isnt supposed to be used in some of these matchups and Leo was just forcing all Roy for this specific tourney in order to train the character for the future.
exactly, he basically played vs the top reps of what seems to be 2 of Roy's worst MUs, if not THE worst MUs and yet, he took games from both.
There's one thing I've never understood about what people expect Leo to do, everyone talks about proven/meta characters, everyone's talking about "on paper" or thing like that as if Leo didnt just play whatever the hell he wants and do well with it... since always.
Yes he sometimes gives in to the darkside like he did with Sm4sh Bayo but he's a player that has always played what he finds fun first and then ends up redefying the meta on his own, this is specially true in Ultimate, no one cared about Ike, he took him to the peak, no one knew what to do with Joker, he dominated for years, everyone was calling Byleth mid, he dominated with him as well, same with shit like reverse 3-0 Riddles with Marth and picking up Corrin and beating Sonix, he just does what he wants and finds fun, it's been that way since Ultimate released.
The real thing here is how much effort and time Leo's willing to put into the character because I have no doubt in my mind that if Leo commits, like really commits to Roy, his entire meta/MU chart will change and we will see some crazy shit, Leo's never been an "on paper guy" during Ultimate, he's always been the "I'm that guy" kind of player, so numbers, theorycrafting and all that stuff does not matter, he will push any character he wants as much as he wants and then reach peak gameplay or drop it.
I dont think a Joker/Roy chart works, at all, but I think Leo's trying to move away from Joker and at this point, it may be the healthiest choice, everyone expect him to play perfectly when he's playing Joker with a character as taxing and technical as him, I'd rather have Leo play something less technical that it gives him the opportunity to play 2 characters at their fullest, instead of 1.5, because we all have to accept that Leo simply is not a solo main kind of player anymore.
The funny thing about Roy is that he is a technical character. He’s simply better than Joker and Mythra, and has weird kill confirms that Leo easily picked up on.
Right? Leo’s success with Byleth should disprove any Roy naysayers.
30:00 It’s literally Riddles first time pulling out Cloud in tournament and Tweek/Pink are expecting miracles. At least Riddles is choosing a viable counter-pick while Tweek is choosing to lose with Seph because “he’s cool”. May be a hot take but Seph isn’t exciting to play or watch plus the character is hot ass. I’ve left maybe one or two comments over the entirety of the podcast’s existence so far but I just can’t agree with Tweek’s or Pink’s mindset at all here about Riddle’s Cloud.
One thing I feel is important as well is identity. When I think about Tweek I iremember some amazing Diddy Kong clips. He, Leo, Riddles and Kola could all spend time refining cloud but whenever I think about Cloud the first person coming to my mind will always be Sparg0. Tweek is famous for his Diddy Kong, Leos Joker and Byleth are legendary etc - Leo and Tweek are not just players but they have massive popularity based on their individuality. Conforming to the meta and abandoning their style is not something I really would like them to do
I don’t think he was saying to abandon Diddy or his identity; just to pick up a better secondary lol dude got double eliminated by Steve 3-0 3-0 at his last big tourney….
I really enjoyed this episode, it got deeper than most episodes where you just go through tournament results and instead it created an interesting argument. Much move yall!
Also we DO need that "On paper" shirt lmao that would be great
I'll tell you this Tweek: as long as you keep playing Sephiroth in major tournaments, you'll be my personal GOAT.
I think along with being the best, Leo has always thought about good smash. Also I respect him going Roy because we all saw how busted Roy once was and people don’t feel that way anymore, so maybe he’s tryna explore that again
Pink is so right at 49:48...
Even the characters we think of as super broken that everyone should simply pick up are themselves brought into relevance by one particularly successful top player. *No one* was talking about cloud in this way until Sparg0 proved it could be done. Maybe Sparg0 is just good? GnW, no one thought was that good until Miya started doing exceptionally well. Frankly, I still don't think GnW is that good, hes just pretty simple to optimize, and Miya has laid out the gameplan for everyone to copy. But no one was doing it like them before they did it. Even Steve, we havent seen anyone come close to Acolas results with the character.
Top players aren't factory workers, they're a lot more like artists or musicians. There's a reason Tweek said he found playing Cloud "ugly". There's a subjective almost aesthetic aspect to this that can't be reduced to simple competitive success.
agreed. wanna mention though that maister was top ten in the world with solo gnw lol. he was def the first top player to spearhead the character
maister put G&W on the map not miya
@@sippycuppp yes, but people weren't putting Gnw in top 5 until miya came along
true
tweek has said something like this before, I think in some episode or stream about tier lists - basically from what I remember, that there are just not enough smash ultimate players for us to really know the upper limits of all characters, because we don't have like a Skyjay for every character to let us know how good they really could be
I've said this before on other videos, but players matter as much as, if not more, than characters. You could theoretically make a tier list based solely on stats: frame data, weight, speed, hitboxes/hurtboxes, etc. It would look a bit different than most tier list, which take tournament results into account. Too many extenuating circumstances to have an accurate list in either case, which is why tier lists change.
Bro, Charles is spitting this episode! Honestly, kudos to the whole squad for having the openness and vulnerability to have a friendly argument on camera. One of the best episodes in a while.
Bro Charles the goat in this episode, love that man, hope to see him back in Mexico for Factor.
The thumbnail is immaculate
damn charles was super mad at leo and tweek today lmao
Charles is exactly right on the Cloud segment of this podcast. I hate, hate, hate that Seph sucks. But he does. And if it’s about winning and potentially taking Steve down, Cloud is the right pick to invest in
RE: Haz's counter: no, toughing through hard matchups is not analogous to doing shit you don't wanna do but have to do.
The key is whether you "have" to do it. That phrase is used for when there is no known, better way to do something. It's shitty work, but you gotta do it.
Choosing to do some work in a more difficult manner than required will get you reprimanded in most jobs because bottom line makes managers favor efficiency. Charles can't go to work with a hammer and say everything is a nail.
Dude that was Chuck NASTY on the mic today, I respect it.
Thank you for spitting facts Charles!!!!!! When smash is your JOB, your goal to be should be to "WIN" (we all have parts of our job we don't like, lol playing cloud is not the end of the world).
The meta wouldn’t be ready for tweekachu
Tweek Shiek and young link
Enjoyed that they focused on discussing the competitive mindset and outlook at the highest level. The differences between the desire and need to win
People have characters they gel with better for the most part it’s as simple as that
Not everyone has the unique aptitude to output 100% of their skill into every character
This episodes gunna be really funny if/when tweek gets a huge win with sephiroth
I really hope it comes soon hes my favorite character but hes on DROUGHT with wins
Full squad on the pod always feels good ❤️ thank y’all for what y’all do
Did they talk about Shinymark at all?
This "listen to your brain or your heart" argument is kind of interesting, but at the same time Im not the biggest on it. You doing anything in your life if you have the choice of two things, one of which you enjoy and the other you dont, why not go for the answer you like.
If you only want to win, you have no reason to pick anyone else but Steve. Even his worst MUs are even at worst and his ceiling is infinite with a really low floor, so if we ONLY care about winning, everyone should play Steve
People playing *their* characters is cool though and makes for a more interesting game and gives us storylines
I respect Chuck and how much he cares but ultimately I do prefer people playing and pushing characters they like, and thats how we see performances like Skyjay, Toriguri and Armadillo popping off with these characters that (at least in one point) were considered bottom 10
Also Tweek's remark about only doing stuff that "looks nice" is the most I have ever resonated with a random notion like that. I love doing cool stuff, it's my reason to play fighting games, so if you take that away, you remove my reason to play
I agree with everything Charles is saying with character picks…. But I’m still gonna main Donkey Kong
Also I loved the little discussion that appeared talking about character tryouts. I think it kinda comes down to what people value and Tweek values inspiring Gameplay while Charles values more the victory screen. And while Leo‘s Roy probably had some inspiring sequences, long term it probably doesn‘t bring him closer to the victory screen. However the Riddles Cloud, while arguably being very bland, long term investing into Cloud does bring him closer to a consistent victory screen.
18:29 the cutaway lol
35:12 “there are a lot of characters you can win with and are powerful that aren’t fun” thats exactly how I see Game n Watch
Ngl though, sometimes G&W is fun in a sadistic sort of way. I made a Falcon player at my locals ragequit because I simply did not let him play the game
@@zake64thats me with steve 💀
@@zake64 as a falco main…ima put emphasis on the sadistic part of you playing GnW 😂. That character just has no sauce man 😂 it’s just bacon and bombs 😂
@@22jdawgjb don't worry, I actually main PT. The G&W is for trolling mostly
@@zake64 respect, because that’s why I play krool 😂😂😂😂😂
Tweek needs to go back to Bowser Jr
41:34 Because of the ecosystem in the Smash community, I disagree that the job of a pro player, in this context making money, is winning tournaments. Its a big part of it, but being Rank 1 in this game doesn't guarantee you to be a appealing pro. An extreme example, probably Gacky makes more money than the four horsemen, or anyone in the top 10. In this ecosystem, popularity is the most important factor for a pro player, and trying the best with a character that is popular among the general viewers, is a not a bad idea.
Dang Chuck went full on doomer in this episode.
Snake just won a major. Banjo got 4th, and Yoshi got 3rd. The facts simply don't support the idea that you have to play the best possible character to win events.
Snake is one of the absolute best characters in the game imo, like top 3, and I feel like more people will agree by the end of the year.
But yes, Banjo doing well(5th not 4th, but doesn't change much) and Yoshi doing well proves the meta has quite a decent amount of variety.
@@legrandliseurtri7495 this just illustrates my point I made in a different comment: NO ONE was saying Snake was this good until he had these sorts of results. A lot of people still don't. Isn't it possible that the snake players (really we're mostly talking about Hurt and AK here) are just doing really well?
@@trombonegamer14 We do have several other relevant Snake players, like Dio, Chronos, MVD, Alandiss, ect.
Personally, even before Hurt's run at Delta 5, I would watch any set with Snake and think: ''this character should be able to accomplish anything in the right hands, so much about him is insanely good''.
Chuck going from "I give af about the environment" to "well, as long as you're barbecuing" in like 5 seconds was TOOO good
Charles was spitting the whole episode, thats the goat right there
If chrom had dolphin slash that Leo chrom would go absolutely dummy.
Great episode! Loved Charles prodding Tweek and Leo. And then it made Tweek really open up about how he sees the game. Some of it he’s said before, but a lot of it was pretty deep! I agree with a lot of what he said very strongly.
Watching Leo play Roy was cool but you could tell he was playing him like Marth or Lucina. I get that feeling I love Roy but can’t play him because Ive played too much Marth and Ike.
Specifically for the Kazuya matchup, I don’t understand why he doesn’t stick to Marth. His floatiness allows him to stay just outside of Kazuya’s threat bubble and Kazuya is easy to tipper so that’s not even a problem for once.
marcus and i agree
@@shawnkeo2817 lololol
Charles is the the best Analyst in Smash imo….
The only reason Leo’s ignoring Corrin is because of Ego/Stubbornness.
Nah, I saw that game, Leo sat there let him be whatever buffs he wanted and then cooked the Hero. “Take your time, read the menu carefully, so will I… get cooked”
Shout out to Charles for keeping it real Leo keeps giving it up to Riddles for free
Riddles' Cloud was the most Kazuya-like Cloud I've ever seen.
Love seeing Chuck tell it straight, truly ChuckNasty, favorite episode in a minute.
24:50 Charles was actually spitting fax here
I think Tweek is probably the best fundamentals/tech labber combination we have ever seen in Smash Ultimate, and that‘s why I think he should play Sheik or Mega Man. I think both characters are super broken but require both time in the lab as well as solid neutral.
Obviously I‘m not taking into consideration that he has the Motivation to do it, because I don‘t think does.
Apart from that I think Toriguri should just play snake or smth that ain‘t fucking Banjo, even if he is finding success with it.
Oh, and for some reason I have a feeling that Asimo could go crazy on Wolf.
That's what in my mind, Asimo and TG deserve better character.And also my goat zackray
I like Charles argument, and I think he is 100% correct.
That said, I think he misses a valuable point. You have to remember the Hungrybox argument of "We have enough data in front of us now, that the educated prediction is that if the large majority of professional players start playing Steve and Sonic, then the large majority of viewers are just going to watch something else. And the simple fact is when they go, the sponsors go."
Tweak, as a viewer, thank you for giving us content worth watching. Hope one day you earn the Dub you deserve.
Awesome discussion episode, shoutout Charles for the based takes.
this is character pick conversation is exactly why Zackray's Pit is so good - he seems to obviously and openly enjoy playing the character and it gels with him and he can make magic happen because of that
Interesting Haz runs the twitter I just thought it was Bee
Charles during tax season is savage. lol
This almost heated, super passionate episode made for a great episode. Appreciate the passion for the game
Leo needs to pick up young link. Trust.
1st. Yink has endless mix and swag. There are so many combo routes to explore. Leo can show y'all the vision.
2. He beats kazuya. It'll force riddles to play Terry. Yink doesn't beat terry tho.
I love top player mentality and décision making within compétition discussions so I have high expectations with this title, let's go!
That was a great video, the "Seeing the game your own way" was really interesting!
Thx
Tweeks game and watch would be lit
I think BECAUSE it’s his career, tweek plays Diddy Kong. I was getting my engineering degree and would have made a killing, but I switched to chemistry because I loved it. I make about half the salary I would have, but I love what I do. If tweek played sonic, sure he might win more. But he wouldn’t enjoy what he does any more. He wouldn’t have passion for the game, it would just be a way to make money. Instead he does what he loves and plays Diddy
Money/winning is not the end all be all of competing for someone who treats it as a career. I have to disagree with Charles, it’s because it’s their careers that tweek and Leo should go who feels good and they get enjoyment out of. As long as they can still pay the bills.
I’ve done shitty jobs in food service to get by when I need to. I don’t know Charles but property management might be one of those jobs for him right now. And of course there’s a time and place for those! But if Leo and tweek are not in that place and don’t have to do shitty jobs (playing a character they don’t like), I don’t see why to knock them for it. If they were losing in pools all the time and couldn’t pay the bills then they should go Steve. But they aren’t
I assume you mean that it's becuase Tweek and Leo have the talent to go with who they feel good with and get enjoyment out of (and win) that they have careers.
Charles when a player wants to choose a character because they're having fun playing them:
🤯😡🤬
Bro this episode was GREAT, Charles went off. But fr I really fuck with these more 'meta' discussions, it's often more interesting than having a "tournament recap" type episode. I remember Haz saying something to the same effect in a previous episode.
Chuck spitting this episode! I still love the Sephiroth, Tweek ❤️
Damn I thought Leo’s Roy was sick. The riddles set felt like he lost on stage picks more so and shinymark one was also really doable. Plus a decent mu against sonic and rob
Leo simply doesn’t know what to do against Kazuya, but knows that Roy should be able to demolish him.
haz got the fresh cut
Homie needed to VENT! hahahaha GG Charles, speak your truth.
Charles was spitting the whole time
If Leo truly wanted to win, he'd pick Corrin
I think a super big dimension missing in this convo that Charles may be missing is fit. While on paper cloud or whoever else may be the better pick for players like tweek and Leo it may actually work against them in the long run cuase the character doesn’t FIT their playstyle. I think that’s what pink was getting at by “it factor” I think while fit can get better over time it’s ultimately factors that are a lot of times outside of the game that decide if your playstyle truly fits a character. It’s not always about fun vs win
Love the unfiltered charles need more of that!
I LOVE CHARLES “CHAD” “PLAYER FIRST” THOREN
Chuck nasty shooting shots all over this episode 😂
Great episode but as a pikachu main, man do I feel robbed😂 Charles better not forget about that pikachu rant next week!
Tweek Sephiroth. The character is underrated but if you can gurantee wing he’s better than solo ice climber.
33:29 charles is spitting right j'ere
They were TALKING this episode
Charles is like Kazuya Mishima, no sugar coating.
Think about it
Charles on fucking demon time this episode lfg LMAO
as a side note I'm a 2-2er so my opinion is whatever - but I main a mid-tier and I had a moment a couple years ago where I was like "I should pick up a high-tier" and started playing Lucina but although I've sunk more time into her than anyone else besides my main she remains my 4th best character, despite the fact that I actually have a lot of fun with her. it probably differs at the top of top level play but people do just have natural inclinations.
hey charles! i would LOVE to see big D solo main aegis from now on! thanks so much for your interest
I would love to see *Tweek* play Sora. Each move combos into the next. Plus he would change the off stage meta.
Leo and Tweek just need to pick up Sora
ken literally won with seph battle of bc two years ago, just runaway back air ur heart out
He used sonic for most of it
He didn’t solo it with seph and there was some top player there was would’ve destroyed his seph. Character is not good.
I just want Charles to know I picked up game and watch because he recommended it a long while back. It’s somewhat working too, I’m starting to beat people.
Kinda hate how we are going down the route of dooming about the meta when there has been a different major winner for every major this year and not a single one played the same character. You can try to argue that they are top tier but that is reacting really harshly to Corrin when she is simply anti-meta. That isn't even going into all the characters that have made top 8 this year. Legit is a super diverse meta with Link and Ike even making top 8 of Kowloon 10. FP2 dooming in the year 2024 is honestly providing nothing to the conversation.
A pile of inconsistencies is not good.
@@justice8718it is when those players are consistent players vs the rest of the field. They are all clearly above the rest of the pack rn and then are trading with each other.
i love seeing tweek’s confidence with sephiroth here, he has the drive to win with him. charles needs to relax
I love Tweek's fortitude
I need Dabuz to actually play Steve. I feel like he could push that character very far but I guess he just doesn't like him
Agreed. It would help players in NA have more Steve experience as well.
@@Boolahan NA already has more Steve players than Europe or Japan.
@@legrandliseurtri7495 But Dabuz is built different
@@Boolahan I guess that's why he's been having mediocre results ever since he started to learn Steve and focus more on Min Min... while he was doing great last year with almost solo Rosa.
Tweek - PLAY MORE FALCO BROOOOOOOOOOOO that’s my pick 😂