I looked up the rule and realized the graphic at 2:44 is missing the most relevant text from the comment on the rule in the OBR, "If a runner is forced to return to a base after a catch, he must retouch his original base even though, because of some ground rule or other rule, he is awarded additional bases. He may retouch while the ball is dead and the award is then made from his original base."
Thank you! I was very confused after the video, since the rule, as quoted, only said "intervening bases," and the tag-up base is in no way "intervening" and was coming here to ask about it. But thank you for putting in the missing piece!
this is a tough one. It's an excellent rules analysis and everything was done correctly here + you're right the the umps are not responsible for telling the R2 what his responsibility is. But it still seems slimy that both HP and 2B umpire motioned R2 to third, including when R2 clearly looks to make sure he is entitled to 3rd. Doesn't relieve him of the responsibility to tag, but also seems like he was just going where directed.
@@rayray4192 I'm sure the baserunner knew the rules, just a spring training brain fart by both he and the 3b coach. Hence, no qualms at all while walking off when called out. The 3rd baseman may have heard the coach ask the runner, 'Hey did you tag up?' Might have awakened the defence to the short coming, and he called for the appeal. Everybody just knocking the rust off. It's what spring training is for.
I just wish a lot more people would watch your you tube. Cause UT would make life easier to talk to people about the game. Some just don't understand the rules. Thank you for all of your hard work.
Baseball broadcasts desperately need a Rules Analyst a la Dean Blandino or Mike Pereira to save themselves from publicizing their own ignorance of the game upon which their careers depend.
Agreed. I understand if Spring Training games and most regular season games on local broadcasts don’t have them. But at the very least the playoff games and other nationally televised games should.
@@GiantsRangersYankees Yep, to your point, other sports have had this for years. I think they've maybe dabbled with it for some national games recently but not certain about that.
professional broadcasts, even those on mlb's own network, do not come close to explaining the rules with the clarity that you do. thank you. looking forward to another season of CCS videos.
Better question is why was the player not already tagging up? It was obvious going to be foul whether it was caught or not. Runner could not advance without tagging up. There was no reason for the runner to be floating out between 2nd and 3rd.
If really stuns me how clueless those announcers often are. The one base award for catch and carry is actually a rather basic rule and not one of those "happens once in a thousand games" rule, that you might actually have to look up. That rule should definitely be known by announcers. Same with the tag up and base touch responsibility on base awards.
Not sure I agree here… whereas the Catch/Carry is relatively common, the ‘tagging up aspect’ is not well known at all. Case in point, I assume neither the base runner nor the 3rd Base Coach knew the rule…had they, the runner would have tagged or the base coach would have been yelling for him to tag.
@@kckcmctcrc Or both stand at 3B and say to each other, 'We just fucked up didn't we?' He calmly walked off knowing they both simply forgot. They both kKNEW the rule. I believe your assumption is incorrect. Any pro ball player and base coach know the rules. if they didn't, they'd have looked confused and questioned the call. They didn't require an explaination 'cause they KNEW the rule, but just both simply fucked up. The catcher also KNOWS the rules. Momentary lapse by all on defense.
Softball umpire here. I get this out at least once a season on someone trying to throw out the runner trying to return to first after a caught fly ball and the throw gets past F3 and out of play. Two bases there from the time of the throw that goes out of play, so the award is third, but they still need to tag up. Good job by the officials and the defense for knowing what's up. Not so much the announcers, though. But when do they ever get it right?
In the month that I've been subscribed to your channel, I've learned that it's alarmingly common how often announcers confidently explain rules and are totally incorrect. I wish they would do more like I've seen American football announcers do lately where they have an actual official that jumps in and explains the call. Thank you so much for your channel -- I've learned so much!
So the runner must tag up even if the play is dead, yes? What happens here: runners 1 and 2 none out. Batter hits a dying quail down the right field line. R2 freezes and R1 goes half way to 2nd. It is a close play, but the umpire rules the ball was trapped (safe mechanic) even though the fielder holds up the ball to show a catch. Both runners advance and the throw comes into 1st, but not in time to put out BR. So now we have players standing at 1st, 2nd and 3rd presumably all safe. The manager of the defense appeals the ruling that the ball was trapped and replay shows a legal catch (BR out). The replay officials place the runners at 1st and 3rd. The defense then requests that R1 be called out as he did not return to 1st before the throw from right field. Regardless of the outcome, once the ball is put in play the pitcher steps off and appeals to 2nd that the runner at 3rd never retouched 2nd after the catch. Do either of these result in an out for not retouching the bag after a catch?
In your hypothetical situation, if I understand it correctly, if the ball was considered trapped, all three runners are safe, assuming no runners passed each other or came off the base and tagged out in the process of the ball coming back into the infield. If that appeal resulted in it being a catch, while I am not sure if the other two runners would be told to go back to first and second or not, (if they are told to go back to their original base, they do that and are safe) or allowed to keep those bases, the batter is out and the other two are safe, as the original call resulted in runners advancing during a base hit or error, and you obviously don't have to tag up during that situation. In the video, the ball was put in play into foul territory and caught, so the runner still has to go back and touch the original base, as the catch happened before the catcher stepped partially into the dugout, and therefore was still considered a catch and batter out, and then the runner would get to go to third automatically.
R2 was holding on 2B during the foul fly ball as most runners do. He might have actually left the base legally on the first touch/catch of the fly. U2 was not looking down at R2's feet and was looking at the catch which is first touch, not the signal. The timing seems to indicate that he left the base after the catch.
No what happened the ball was popped up foul. Catcher runs over catches the ball in field of play. The runner still needs to retain base. At the end of the clip he never went and retouched 2nd before going to 3rd.
@@matthewmaning4859 The clip doesn't show it but the game video shows R2 leading off and when the foul fly is hit he goes back and stands on 2B. He then leaves 2B when he sees the ball caught and F2 going into the dugout. If he left on time he didn't have to retouch for the award. The timing seems to me as if he left on the time of the catch. The game video shows U2 looking at the catch with R2 in front of him but not looking at R2's feet to see when he left.
This was a good analysis of a tricky call. As an Orioles fan I hated the result, but enjoyed learning something...and after all, it's just a fake game. 😏
The nasty part is that the runner looks at the 2nd base ump and the 2nd base ump points him toward third base. He does what the 2nd base ump tells him, then the ump calls him out for doing it.
Fine, but two steps towards third should have had the 3B coach throw up both his hands and point to second instructing the runner to tag up. Coache's fail, more than anything. The runner ought to also know his job. But who of us here execute our jobs perfectly, everyday? It's spring. Served it's purpose of ensuring this won't happen in reg season.
What a FANTASTIC catch by the Pirates. MLB networks really need to give a rules analyst to these crews. It's a shame most of these PBP/Analysts fail to understand some of the more common rules too and give misguided guesses they are taking as fact.
There’s no centralized network for these games. NFL only has 4 networks running games so each of them can have their own rules analyst that can chime in from the studio when needed. MLB has 30 different networks and I doubt most of them want to budget for an additional analyst over their normal guys that are flying to a new park every 3 days, especially for spring training when no one cares.
The commenters not knowing the rules and spouting nonsense causes umpires lots of problems. Casual fans hear the announcers spout incorrect information and think the announcer must be right. Then when an umpire makes the correct call which contradicts what the idiot announcer says, they determine the umpire is wrong.
We need Ed Hochili or even better Gene Stertore, or even Joe Torre for rule analyst in baseball officiating with instant replay, that way the local and national telecast baseball announcers would clearly state the rules of baseball for viewers and fans.
Im interested with the 2b umpire when the runner looked back to him for clarification and if he said anything in addition to pointing. If he told the runner "you can go on to 3rd" I can see how the runner is confused about his responsibility to tag up.
Either way, the runner would still need to tag up. This isn't a situation where there there is no pitch and say a balk is called. Or the play happened and interference is called afterwards.
It does seem like both the home plate and second base umpires motioned the runner to third base without telling him to tag up. I realize that the runner/team should know the rule; however, it does seem like the umps set up the runner to fail.
The umpires handled this correctly. We never tell players what to do when it comes to situation such as this, and the players are responsible for knowing the rules. The umpires didn't set the runner up to fail, the runner and the third base coach set the runner up to fail.
I have a problem with the umpire telling the player you go to third, as can be seen in the video, and the player following the umpire direction, and then being called out.
Did you notice that the ump walked between the runner and second base and directed the runner to go to 3rd? To tag up, the runner would have had to go around the umpire. I would reprimand the umpire for influencing the runner to make a mistake.
So what if the runner needs to go around the umpire? The umpire did not influence the runner. He correctly told the runner he is awarded third base. The runner needs to be smart enough to know he needs to tag up on a caught fly ball.
If I'm a third base coach telling a runner to stop and holding them physically to get back to third, I'm guilty of interference and the runner is out. When everybody in the dugout not only catches the catcher after he catches the ball, they touch him before entering the dugout, is this similarly interference?
@@RyanRobbins007 can you cite where this is legal please? Not saying youre wrong but would like to know the rule that protects the fielder from his momentum carrying him into dead ball territory and being able to be aided by bench personal from falling in
@@mptr1783 Definition of "catch" comment: "If a fielder, attempting a catch at the edge of the dugout, is 'held up' and kept from an apparent fall by a player or players of either team and the catch is made, it shall be allowed."
the interpretation of the rule seems correct to me, but the rule itself seems like a bad rule. It's silly and moot to have runners touch previous bases after they are awarded a base. I know I could say the same thing for a homerun, or ground rule double, but the homerun trot is glorious. Ground rule double or triple who cares?
What's the rule on the signal the umpire is supposed to give to tell the runner to advance? If there's no rule about that, then maybe the umpire should be more careful to use a signal that doesn't confuse the runner. Like, point to 2B then 3b.
The mechanic is to call "Time", point to the runner, and then to the base the runner has been rewarded. Repeat if necessary for multiple runners. For instance, a runner on first base awarded third base results in a point to the runner and then to third base with no reference to the necessary touch of second base nor retouch of the prior base (if required).
@@RyanRobbins007 My apologies, I misread your reply. You are correct. Point at the runner and say "you", then point to the awarded base and say "third base".
The ball was so obviously going foul, I have no idea why the runner didn't park himself on second base anyway. Not like he would be able to advance if they didn't catch it.
The sad part is that most yahoos sitting in the stands and at home get their rule knowledge from the sandlot, old wives tales, and ignorant announcers.
The problem I have with this is that the runner looks at the ump and points to third, obviously asking if he should head over there, and the ump told him to go ahead. Yeah, it's not up to the ump to tell him to tag up first, but at the same time, telling him to go ahead isn't the right answer either.
@@johndoe-yw7eb Telling him to go to third is the right answer. Why wouldn't the umpire tell him to go to third? That is what he should do. Don't excuse the runner for being a bonehead.
@@johndoe-yw7eb You are wrong to think the right answer is to say nothing. The right answer is to inform the runner he is being awarded third base, which is what the umpire is required to do. The runner needs to be smart enough to know he must tag up before advancing on a caught fly ball.
It is a rule but honestly, it is a VERY stupid rule. What on earth could be SO important in compelling to have the runner tag-up in this situation? It is an “award”. This means “advance without fear of being put out”.
As a baserunner, if the batted ball is obviously in foul territory and could be caught, why wouldn't the runner go back to the base and tag up? Three things could happen. The ball is caught and fielder is alert and ready to throw anyone trying to advance. The ball is not caught, so it would be a foul ball and the play is dead and all runners have to return anyway. The ball is caught but fielder has trouble, like falling down or in this case going out of play. Then the runner should try to advance.
The runner did go back and stand on 2B when he saw the foul fly. More than likely he left 2B when he judged the catch was made. Why else would a runner go back and retouch during the fly but then leave the base early?
It makes perfect sense. The catcher stepped out of play. That's a one-base award to runners. That's what the umpire did -- award the runner third base. It is not the umpire's job to tell the runner that he must retouch his original base before advancing to the awarded base.
HEY, MLB! HIRE THIS WOMAN! She can be at broadcast central to explain to all broadcasters nice little problems like this. This might prevent breakouts of foot in the mouth disease that broadcasters are prone to get!
So here's my question: Instead of a catch and carry, the pitcher balks. The ball is dead and the runner is awarded third. Does he need to retouch? If not, why not? And if he does, then why doesn't it get called more often?
With a balk. All runners including the batter runner need to advance to nullify the balk. If a ball happened in this situation, the runner would advance to third and the batter would come back to bat.
@@baxterb94 I'd say the reason for normally having to tag up after a catch is obvious but when awarded a base like this it's a silly rule. There should be an exception for awarded bases.
ump: go to third base! another ump: you're out for not going back to second before doing what the other ump told you to do! I know, the rule is in the book, so it must be adhered to, but dang that one is petty.
Runner still has to tag up because the ball was legally caught in field of play. Runners can advance on caught foul balls down the line by outfielders.
@@kamX-rz4uy I get what you are saying but the ball was caught in the field of play so the runner has to tag up before advancing. So are in favor of incase of a ground rule double the runner doesn't have to touch first? This game is called baseball all bases need to be touched legally in order to advance to the next one.
@@matthewmaning4859 I'd say this is different because the runner already tagged second. He just didn't retag. In other scenarios there's a good reason for having to tag up but this is an outlier.
@@teebob21 The part where when a play goes dead and there is no functional aspect left to tagging up. There is no play there is no advance there is no other reason to tag up aside from getting called out on a technicality. If an umpire awards you a base you should just be able to go to the base. Is it a big deal? No. But is it a bad implementation of a rule...yes
@@rickypoindexter9505 You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of the game. Regardless of awarded bases, all runners must always touch the bases required in the legal order, even if there is no play. This is the reason that batters must make a homerun trot: baseball requires that all bases be touched in legal order in order for a run to score. Likewise, runners must correctly tag up, even if they are due awarded bases before doing so. If they fail to tag up, they have not touched the bases in the correct legal order, and are liable to be called out on appeal.
@@teebob21 I never debated the existence of those rules dude. So how you can thereby deduce that I don't know wtf i'm talking about is beyond me. I was saying and agreeing with OP that the REASON for them is flawed. We are debating if they SHOULD exist and you are sitting here acting like I don't know that they do indeed exist lol.
I hate this call because he asks the 2nd base ump ‘what’s up?’ And the 2nd base ump points him to third. Then that same ump makes the out call. No way a normal runner would be expected to correct an ump and say, ‘no no, I have to tag up first!’
When the umpire points to third, he is awarding the base to the runner. He's not telling him to go there without tagging up. It is up to the player to know the rules.
Why is the second base umpire telling the runner at 2nd to go to third. He points at third after the runner points. The umpire is also between the base runner and the second base bag. So you are telling me he’s out after the umpire literally tells him to go to third?
The runner is out on appeal because he failed to retouch second base following the catch. It's not the umpire's job to tell him to do that. The umpire is simply telling the runner he's been awarded third base because of the catch and carry by F2. It's the runner's responsibility to retouch second base following the catch and prior to going to third base on the base award. It's basic base running and basic umpire mechanics.
@@billbell2311 what evidence is there that the runner left 2nd base before the catcher caught the ball? The runner was just leaving the base as the camera view switched to show the runner. So it’s not a question of did he not tag up, he did. The question is did he leave the base early. From the runner’s perspective, the only way he is going to advance on a live ball is if the catcher does catch the pop foul, but then for whatever reason is not going to be able to throw the ball to 3rd in time. There is no benefit to the runner to leave early. I think the defense played a Jedi mind trick on the 2nd base umpire, which only works on the “weak minded”
@@mikewhite735 2:52 to 3:03 shows the runner did not retouch 2B before advancing to third base. Also, there was no argument from the Orioles. Had he retouched, they would have argued the out call on the appeal.
So, is the umpire stating he left early then? It looks like he did tag up around the time of the catch; and his reaction is to the HPU signaling him to go to 3rd. Are you saying he must RE-tag up after the ball is dead?
Technically, the ball was alive at the time of the catch. If he was touching second at the moment the catcher touched the ball and then left the base toward third base before the carry out of play, I would expect that he would not be out on appeal; he would have already satisfied his requirement to re-touch before the ball became dead, thus not need to re-touch again during the dead ball and award of 3rd.
@Mark Johnson The clip doesn't show it but he tagged up during the foul fly and most likely left 2B legally on the catch. He didn't have to retag during the dead ball if he tagged legally during the live ball.
Before youtube but after weed, we spent four years debating this scenario but the main smoker always asked, what if the runner had achieved the next base before the ball went out of play. So in this instance let's say that the runner has rounded 3rd instead of being 4 steps off of second. Ball is caught and then the player leaves the field. Dead ball. When and how can he legally retouch the base he has achieved, 3rd, thenreturn and touch 2nd and then return to 3rd, which he would then be awarded all while the ball is dead. While we all agree that's what he needs to do, the question was always, how can you do that during a dead ball. One thing has changed since then, we have youtube now.
He wouldn't have achieved third. That's like saying a runner can stay on third on a fly out to right field because he advanced there as the ball was in the air.
Good question. Once the ball is dead a runner cannot retouch a missed base if they've advanced to and touched a base beyond the missed base. In your case - if he's standing on third when the ball becomes dead, he can't go back to retouch 2nd. See Rule 5.09(c) approved ruling - specifically part (B)
@@user-zr6pl6nb6z A runner can stay at 3rd on a fly out, but shall be called out on proper appeal at 2nd base. If no appeal is made and a subsequent play occurs (Usually a pitch) he sure as ganja achieved whatever base he is now standing on. All of this is coming from an umpire pov. An umpire never says to the runner, "You need to go back to 2nd" in your scenario.
Dumb rule. At any level (or age) if the ump points a player to the next base the obvious thing to do is go to that base. And we wonder why fans are leaving baseball.
baseball has so many of the dumbest rules in any sport ever, and they wonder why viewers and interest has declined so much. can you imagin in us football if the refs gave the offense 5yd, then called them offsides on the next play for being at the new line.
This rule made perfect sense until the advent of the automatic IBB (a rule I despise), which has created inconsistency in the game’s administrative rules. Intentional walks no longer require the pitcher to throw the intentional balls, yet a runner is still required to touch up in certain situations when awarded the next base. The modernization of the former (as much as I despise it) makes the archaism of the latter seem silly.
The introduction of the automatic IBB has nothing to do with the fact that all runners must touch their bases in order, and may not leave their base on a fly ball until it is first touched.
@@teebob21 The part when the player is rewarded the base during a DEAD BALL but is still required to "tag up". That is what I feel is stupid. Semantics for no purpose but to cause confusion. If the play is dead or halted, then it shouldn't be restarted until the everything is in proper order. I don't know if this is in the rules, but when a runner starts on 2nd base in the 10th inning onward, do they have to touch 1st base before they go to 2nd to start the inning? If they do, then that is equally stupid and would be the same semantics.
@@xragg It's very simple. All bases must be touched in legal order. It is not legal to advance to a farther base if a runner has not completed his baserunning responsibilities at a preceding base. This is ALWAYS the rule. It doesn't matter whether the ball is alive or dead. The ball is dead after a home run or ground rule double, but all bases must be touched in legal order. No one who has a passing familiarity with baseball questions or doubts this. The scenario in this play is no different. All bases must be touched in legal order. The penalty for failure to do so is an out, if properly appealed by the defense. The only times a runner is not required to do this are foul balls, and the placement of the last batter of the inning on 2B to begin extra innings.
@@teebob21 If is so "simple", then why did professionals and announcers who do nothing but cover the game get it wrong? Why does it take a podcaster who does nothing but explain intricacies of the game have to explain it? I didn't say that wasn't in the rules. I said it is stupid. He didn't skip a base. He only did what the ump instructed and then was penalized because he didn't "dance like a monkey" and go back and tag up. Defend it all you want, but the sport is dying, and to me, this is a small example of why.
@@xragg Because for some reason players, coaches, managers, fans, and *especially* announcers DON'T KNOW THE RULES. There are exceptions, of course, but broadly speaking they just don't know them. It's the same at the top levels of play as it is down at 8U.
I looked up the rule and realized the graphic at 2:44 is missing the most relevant text from the comment on the rule in the OBR, "If a runner is forced to return to a base after a catch, he must retouch his original base even though, because of some ground rule or other rule, he is awarded additional bases. He may retouch while the ball is dead and the award is then made from his original base."
@Mark Johnson "not punch anyone" X-D
@@closethockeyfan5284 Rougned Odor has entered the chat
Thank you! I was very confused after the video, since the rule, as quoted, only said "intervening bases," and the tag-up base is in no way "intervening" and was coming here to ask about it. But thank you for putting in the missing piece!
It's a pop out/fly out, so the rule still applies in the runner still needs to tag up.
this is a tough one. It's an excellent rules analysis and everything was done correctly here + you're right the the umps are not responsible for telling the R2 what his responsibility is. But it still seems slimy that both HP and 2B umpire motioned R2 to third, including when R2 clearly looks to make sure he is entitled to 3rd. Doesn't relieve him of the responsibility to tag, but also seems like he was just going where directed.
@Mark Johnson yup agreed. Runner needs to know. Just a weird optic.
If both umpires can tell R2 to go to 3rd, why can they NOT tell R2 to return to 2nd and THEN go to 3rd?
@@davej3781 I was about to reply, umpires are not base coaches, but then I saw you took care of the question. Third base coach failure.
It’s still dumb
@@rayray4192 I'm sure the baserunner knew the rules, just a spring training brain fart by both he and the 3b coach. Hence, no qualms at all while walking off when called out. The 3rd baseman may have heard the coach ask the runner, 'Hey did you tag up?'
Might have awakened the defence to the short coming, and he called for the appeal.
Everybody just knocking the rust off. It's what spring training is for.
I just wish a lot more people would watch your you tube. Cause UT would make life easier to talk to people about the game. Some just don't understand the rules. Thank you for all of your hard work.
Excellent explanation as always. Thank you!
Baseball broadcasts desperately need a Rules Analyst a la Dean Blandino or Mike Pereira to save themselves from publicizing their own ignorance of the game upon which their careers depend.
This ⬆⬆⬆⬆⬆
I've been saying this for years.
Agreed. I understand if Spring Training games and most regular season games on local broadcasts don’t have them. But at the very least the playoff games and other nationally televised games should.
@@GiantsRangersYankees Yep, to your point, other sports have had this for years. I think they've maybe dabbled with it for some national games recently but not certain about that.
Absolutely. So tired of hearing them whine when they themselves do not know what they are whining about.
Thank you very much for this! Excellent breakdown, good eye by the Pirates.
professional broadcasts, even those on mlb's own network, do not come close to explaining the rules with the clarity that you do. thank you.
looking forward to another season of CCS videos.
Great job explaining the rule. I am becoming a big fan of this channel and your website.
Great stuff! Glad this ended up in my timeline. New subscriber now
Great explanation. Thank you.
AWESOME explanation!
Better question is why was the player not already tagging up? It was obvious going to be foul whether it was caught or not. Runner could not advance without tagging up. There was no reason for the runner to be floating out between 2nd and 3rd.
If really stuns me how clueless those announcers often are. The one base award for catch and carry is actually a rather basic rule and not one of those "happens once in a thousand games" rule, that you might actually have to look up. That rule should definitely be known by announcers. Same with the tag up and base touch responsibility on base awards.
Not sure I agree here… whereas the Catch/Carry is relatively common, the ‘tagging up aspect’ is not well known at all. Case in point, I assume neither the base runner nor the 3rd Base Coach knew the rule…had they, the runner would have tagged or the base coach would have been yelling for him to tag.
Don't take Joe Blockhead as a standard-bearer. Dude is absolutely clueless in general; Pirates fans by and large don't enjoy him.
@@kckcmctcrc Or both stand at 3B and say to each other, 'We just fucked up didn't we?'
He calmly walked off knowing they both simply forgot. They both kKNEW the rule. I believe your assumption is incorrect.
Any pro ball player and base coach know the rules.
if they didn't, they'd have looked confused and questioned the call.
They didn't require an explaination 'cause they KNEW the rule, but just both simply fucked up.
The catcher also KNOWS the rules. Momentary lapse by all on defense.
@@kckcmctcrc Come on, everybody that understands anything about baseball knows a runner must tag up on a caught fly ball.
Softball umpire here. I get this out at least once a season on someone trying to throw out the runner trying to return to first after a caught fly ball and the throw gets past F3 and out of play. Two bases there from the time of the throw that goes out of play, so the award is third, but they still need to tag up. Good job by the officials and the defense for knowing what's up. Not so much the announcers, though. But when do they ever get it right?
In the month that I've been subscribed to your channel, I've learned that it's alarmingly common how often announcers confidently explain rules and are totally incorrect. I wish they would do more like I've seen American football announcers do lately where they have an actual official that jumps in and explains the call. Thank you so much for your channel -- I've learned so much!
Have you ever done a video on the pine tar incident? I'd love to hear your take on that one.
So the runner must tag up even if the play is dead, yes? What happens here: runners 1 and 2 none out. Batter hits a dying quail down the right field line. R2 freezes and R1 goes half way to 2nd. It is a close play, but the umpire rules the ball was trapped (safe mechanic) even though the fielder holds up the ball to show a catch. Both runners advance and the throw comes into 1st, but not in time to put out BR. So now we have players standing at 1st, 2nd and 3rd presumably all safe. The manager of the defense appeals the ruling that the ball was trapped and replay shows a legal catch (BR out). The replay officials place the runners at 1st and 3rd. The defense then requests that R1 be called out as he did not return to 1st before the throw from right field. Regardless of the outcome, once the ball is put in play the pitcher steps off and appeals to 2nd that the runner at 3rd never retouched 2nd after the catch. Do either of these result in an out for not retouching the bag after a catch?
In your hypothetical situation, if I understand it correctly, if the ball was considered trapped, all three runners are safe, assuming no runners passed each other or came off the base and tagged out in the process of the ball coming back into the infield. If that appeal resulted in it being a catch, while I am not sure if the other two runners would be told to go back to first and second or not, (if they are told to go back to their original base, they do that and are safe) or allowed to keep those bases, the batter is out and the other two are safe, as the original call resulted in runners advancing during a base hit or error, and you obviously don't have to tag up during that situation.
In the video, the ball was put in play into foul territory and caught, so the runner still has to go back and touch the original base, as the catch happened before the catcher stepped partially into the dugout, and therefore was still considered a catch and batter out, and then the runner would get to go to third automatically.
no
Can y’all do a breakdown of the Scherzer vs Riley Adams AB where scherzer has come set before the ball is in play?
R2 was holding on 2B during the foul fly ball as most runners do. He might have actually left the base legally on the first touch/catch of the fly. U2 was not looking down at R2's feet and was looking at the catch which is first touch, not the signal. The timing seems to indicate that he left the base after the catch.
No what happened the ball was popped up foul. Catcher runs over catches the ball in field of play. The runner still needs to retain base. At the end of the clip he never went and retouched 2nd before going to 3rd.
@@matthewmaning4859 The clip doesn't show it but the game video shows R2 leading off and when the foul fly is hit he goes back and stands on 2B. He then leaves 2B when he sees the ball caught and F2 going into the dugout. If he left on time he didn't have to retouch for the award. The timing seems to me as if he left on the time of the catch. The game video shows U2 looking at the catch with R2 in front of him but not looking at R2's feet to see when he left.
The broadcasters are always clueless, so sad. Great explanation of the rules.
Good explanation.
75% of the time the announcers are wrong unless they played pro ball recently.... Love your content keep it up.
Many of the pros who played ball recently often are wrong.
This was a good analysis of a tricky call. As an Orioles fan I hated the result, but enjoyed learning something...and after all, it's just a fake game. 😏
Not 'tricky' at all. Third base coach makes six figures to know this. Simply blew it.
Nobody's perfecty and this is what spring traing is for.
The nasty part is that the runner looks at the 2nd base ump and the 2nd base ump points him toward third base. He does what the 2nd base ump tells him, then the ump calls him out for doing it.
Fine, but two steps towards third should have had the 3B coach throw up both his hands and point to second instructing the runner to tag up.
Coache's fail, more than anything. The runner ought to also know his job. But who of us here execute our jobs perfectly, everyday?
It's spring. Served it's purpose of ensuring this won't happen in reg season.
The umpire did exactly what he should do. The runner didn't.
I did not know this one. Cool
Like these more than just the ejection videos
What a FANTASTIC catch by the Pirates. MLB networks really need to give a rules analyst to these crews. It's a shame most of these PBP/Analysts fail to understand some of the more common rules too and give misguided guesses they are taking as fact.
There’s no centralized network for these games. NFL only has 4 networks running games so each of them can have their own rules analyst that can chime in from the studio when needed. MLB has 30 different networks and I doubt most of them want to budget for an additional analyst over their normal guys that are flying to a new park every 3 days, especially for spring training when no one cares.
Or add a former ump as a rules "analyst". I think YES (NY?) was using Brian Gorman for a bit. Was a needed touch.
In a regular season game, this is also exactly the sort of thing that the CC with the field mike can and should explain.
The commenters not knowing the rules and spouting nonsense causes umpires lots of problems. Casual fans hear the announcers spout incorrect information and think the announcer must be right. Then when an umpire makes the correct call which contradicts what the idiot announcer says, they determine the umpire is wrong.
We need Ed Hochili or even better Gene Stertore, or even Joe Torre for rule analyst in baseball officiating with instant replay, that way the local and national telecast baseball announcers would clearly state the rules of baseball for viewers and fans.
Im interested with the 2b umpire when the runner looked back to him for clarification and if he said anything in addition to pointing. If he told the runner "you can go on to 3rd" I can see how the runner is confused about his responsibility to tag up.
Either way, the runner would still need to tag up. This isn't a situation where there there is no pitch and say a balk is called. Or the play happened and interference is called afterwards.
Excellent discourse! Precisely....
It does seem like both the home plate and second base umpires motioned the runner to third base without telling him to tag up. I realize that the runner/team should know the rule; however, it does seem like the umps set up the runner to fail.
The umpires handled this correctly. We never tell players what to do when it comes to situation such as this, and the players are responsible for knowing the rules. The umpires didn't set the runner up to fail, the runner and the third base coach set the runner up to fail.
Lindsey explains this situation correctly. Watch it with the sound on 🤣🤣🤣
good one!
If he slipped on a banana skin while attempting to advance, would he be out on a peel?
Is this also a rule in NFHS?
Yes, the only difference in NFHS for this would be that the appeal could be made verbally on a dead ball after the action.
Yes. This rule is the same at all levels of bat/ball games: T-ball, baseball, slowpitch, and fastpitch. Always has been.
I have a problem with the umpire telling the player you go to third, as can be seen in the video, and the player following the umpire direction, and then being called out.
Your real problem is not understanding the umpire did exactly what he should do. The runner needs to know that he must run the bases legally.
Did you notice that the ump walked between the runner and second base and directed the runner to go to 3rd? To tag up, the runner would have had to go around the umpire. I would reprimand the umpire for influencing the runner to make a mistake.
So what if the runner needs to go around the umpire?
The umpire did not influence the runner. He correctly told the runner he is awarded third base. The runner needs to be smart enough to know he needs to tag up on a caught fly ball.
If I'm a third base coach telling a runner to stop and holding them physically to get back to third, I'm guilty of interference and the runner is out. When everybody in the dugout not only catches the catcher after he catches the ball, they touch him before entering the dugout, is this similarly interference?
No. The rules specifically allow for it. It's to prevent injury.
@@RyanRobbins007 can you cite where this is legal please? Not saying youre wrong but would like to know the rule that protects the fielder from his momentum carrying him into dead ball territory and being able to be aided by bench personal from falling in
@@mptr1783 Definition of "catch" comment: "If a fielder, attempting a catch at the edge of the dugout, is 'held up' and kept from an apparent fall by a player or players of
either team and the catch is made, it shall be allowed."
@@RyanRobbins007 awesome, appreciate the feedback. Learn something new every day thanks
the interpretation of the rule seems correct to me, but the rule itself seems like a bad rule. It's silly and moot to have runners touch previous bases after they are awarded a base. I know I could say the same thing for a homerun, or ground rule double, but the homerun trot is glorious. Ground rule double or triple who cares?
I knew this!! Holy Crap lol
What's the rule on the signal the umpire is supposed to give to tell the runner to advance? If there's no rule about that, then maybe the umpire should be more careful to use a signal that doesn't confuse the runner. Like, point to 2B then 3b.
The mechanic is to call "Time", point to the runner, and then to the base the runner has been rewarded. Repeat if necessary for multiple runners. For instance, a runner on first base awarded third base results in a point to the runner and then to third base with no reference to the necessary touch of second base nor retouch of the prior base (if required).
The award is third base, not second and third base.
@@RyanRobbins007 Lindsay was giving an example, not about what happened in this video.
@@alanhess9306 I was responding to Errant Click.
@@RyanRobbins007 My apologies, I misread your reply. You are correct. Point at the runner and say "you", then point to the awarded base and say "third base".
The ball was so obviously going foul, I have no idea why the runner didn't park himself on second base anyway. Not like he would be able to advance if they didn't catch it.
2nd base umpire is pointing to the runner to take 3rd base
Yes he is and that's exactly what he should do. What the runner should know is that he needs to tag up on a caught fly ball.
The sad part is that most yahoos sitting in the stands and at home get their rule knowledge from the sandlot, old wives tales, and ignorant announcers.
The problem I have with this is that the runner looks at the ump and points to third, obviously asking if he should head over there, and the ump told him to go ahead. Yeah, it's not up to the ump to tell him to tag up first, but at the same time, telling him to go ahead isn't the right answer either.
Except umpires don't coach.
@@philipkeeler9997 I'm not asking him to coach, I'm asking him not to tell the guy it's ok for him to go to 3rd when it obviously wasn't.
@@johndoe-yw7eb Telling him to go to third is the right answer. Why wouldn't the umpire tell him to go to third? That is what he should do. Don't excuse the runner for being a bonehead.
@@alanhess9306 how is it “the right answer” if he gets called out for doing it? The “right answer” is to say nothing.
@@johndoe-yw7eb You are wrong to think the right answer is to say nothing. The right answer is to inform the runner he is being awarded third base, which is what the umpire is required to do. The runner needs to be smart enough to know he must tag up before advancing on a caught fly ball.
It is a rule but honestly, it is a VERY stupid rule. What on earth could be SO important in compelling to have the runner tag-up in this situation? It is an “award”. This means “advance without fear of being put out”.
There are base-running rules. Runners must tag up on caught fly balls, it isn't very difficult to understand.
When the runner asked U2 if he could go to third, he should have just told him to make sure he tags up. Preventative officiating.
No, that would be coaching. Umpires do not coach. Umpires are not responsible for players not knowing the rules.
As a baserunner, if the batted ball is obviously in foul territory and could be caught, why wouldn't the runner go back to the base and tag up? Three things could happen. The ball is caught and fielder is alert and ready to throw anyone trying to advance. The ball is not caught, so it would be a foul ball and the play is dead and all runners have to return anyway. The ball is caught but fielder has trouble, like falling down or in this case going out of play. Then the runner should try to advance.
The runner did go back and stand on 2B when he saw the foul fly. More than likely he left 2B when he judged the catch was made. Why else would a runner go back and retouch during the fly but then leave the base early?
The home plate umpire sent him to 3rd after the catch was made. Makes no sense. This season is going to be all messed up
It makes perfect sense. The catcher stepped out of play. That's a one-base award to runners. That's what the umpire did -- award the runner third base. It is not the umpire's job to tell the runner that he must retouch his original base before advancing to the awarded base.
HEY, MLB! HIRE THIS WOMAN! She can be at broadcast central to explain to all broadcasters nice little problems like this. This might prevent breakouts of foot in the mouth disease that broadcasters are prone to get!
This is why MLB has a perception problem. Video shows 2 umpires telling R2 to advance and then one of them calling him out. It’s a bad look.
Not a bad look at all. They are awarding the runner a base. The runner still must retouch before advancing to that base.
So here's my question:
Instead of a catch and carry, the pitcher balks. The ball is dead and the runner is awarded third. Does he need to retouch? If not, why not? And if he does, then why doesn't it get called more often?
No, runners don't need to tag up after a balk. The reason he has to retouch here is because a catch was made
With a balk. All runners including the batter runner need to advance to nullify the balk. If a ball happened in this situation, the runner would advance to third and the batter would come back to bat.
@@baxterb94 OK, that makes sense when I think more about it.
@@baxterb94 I'd say the reason for normally having to tag up after a catch is obvious but when awarded a base like this it's a silly rule. There should be an exception for awarded bases.
@@kamX-rz4uy No, there does not need to be an exception. What should happen is the runner needs to know he needs to tag up.
Dumb rule. Officials told him to advance on a dead ball, give the man his base.
Because you don't understand it does not make it a dumb rule. The runner needs to know how to properly run the bases.
Still amazes me how little professional full time broadcasters know about the rules of the game they are paid to try and explain!
Why would a pro leave second base at all on a foul ball?
ump: go to third base!
another ump: you're out for not going back to second before doing what the other ump told you to do!
I know, the rule is in the book, so it must be adhered to, but dang that one is petty.
It’s not petty. They properly appealed the failure to tag up.
Youth baseball: I could see the umpire giving one base to the runner/runners,but not retouch appeal play.
@@kevinkiss3340 Nope. The call would be the same. It's on the coaches to teach their players the rules.
Seems like a stupid rule, especially when the umpires motion him to go to third
Runner still has to tag up because the ball was legally caught in field of play. Runners can advance on caught foul balls down the line by outfielders.
@@matthewmaning4859 Yes but in that situation there is a risk of getting put out. Here it is an awarded base so the rule is silly.
@@kamX-rz4uy I get what you are saying but the ball was caught in the field of play so the runner has to tag up before advancing. So are in favor of incase of a ground rule double the runner doesn't have to touch first? This game is called baseball all bases need to be touched legally in order to advance to the next one.
@@matthewmaning4859 I'd say this is different because the runner already tagged second. He just didn't retag. In other scenarios there's a good reason for having to tag up but this is an outlier.
@@kamX-rz4uy He was off the bag when the ball was caught.
I understand that's the rule but, boy, what a terrible rule.
Not terrible at all! Since when don't you have to tag up on a caught batted ball? Right?
What part of the rule that requires runners to tag up of fly balls do you object to?
@@teebob21 The part where when a play goes dead and there is no functional aspect left to tagging up. There is no play there is no advance there is no other reason to tag up aside from getting called out on a technicality. If an umpire awards you a base you should just be able to go to the base. Is it a big deal? No. But is it a bad implementation of a rule...yes
@@rickypoindexter9505 You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of the game. Regardless of awarded bases, all runners must always touch the bases required in the legal order, even if there is no play.
This is the reason that batters must make a homerun trot: baseball requires that all bases be touched in legal order in order for a run to score.
Likewise, runners must correctly tag up, even if they are due awarded bases before doing so. If they fail to tag up, they have not touched the bases in the correct legal order, and are liable to be called out on appeal.
@@teebob21 I never debated the existence of those rules dude. So how you can thereby deduce that I don't know wtf i'm talking about is beyond me. I was saying and agreeing with OP that the REASON for them is flawed. We are debating if they SHOULD exist and you are sitting here acting like I don't know that they do indeed exist lol.
I hate this call because he asks the 2nd base ump ‘what’s up?’ And the 2nd base ump points him to third. Then that same ump makes the out call. No way a normal runner would be expected to correct an ump and say, ‘no no, I have to tag up first!’
I agree with you. The ump at 2b cleary points to 3rd base when the baserunner asks him whats going on.
The worst part is that the ump said "Simon says, Go To 3rd now!"
These comments are hilarious!
It's the runners responsibility to know the rule. The umpires are just enforcing the rules
When the umpire points to third, he is awarding the base to the runner. He's not telling him to go there without tagging up. It is up to the player to know the rules.
@@mptr1783 Right, that's what the umpire should do. What the runner should do is tag up before advancing.
Why is the second base umpire telling the runner at 2nd to go to third. He points at third after the runner points. The umpire is also between the base runner and the second base bag. So you are telling me he’s out after the umpire literally tells him to go to third?
The runner is out on appeal because he failed to retouch second base following the catch. It's not the umpire's job to tell him to do that. The umpire is simply telling the runner he's been awarded third base because of the catch and carry by F2. It's the runner's responsibility to retouch second base following the catch and prior to going to third base on the base award. It's basic base running and basic umpire mechanics.
@@billbell2311 what evidence is there that the runner left 2nd base before the catcher caught the ball?
The runner was just leaving the base as the camera view switched to show the runner.
So it’s not a question of did he not tag up, he did. The question is did he leave the base early.
From the runner’s perspective, the only way he is going to advance on a live ball is if the catcher does catch the pop foul, but then for whatever reason is not going to be able to throw the ball to 3rd in time.
There is no benefit to the runner to leave early.
I think the defense played a Jedi mind trick on the 2nd base umpire, which only works on the “weak minded”
@@mikewhite735 2:52 to 3:03 shows the runner did not retouch 2B before advancing to third base. Also, there was no argument from the Orioles. Had he retouched, they would have argued the out call on the appeal.
Both rules are idiotic.
Foul ball should not advance a runner.
If it would advance a runner, why tag up?
Idiotic.
Obviously you don't know very much about baseball.
What an extremely stupid rule...I have nothing else to say about it, honestly.
It is not a stupid rule. I sincerely hope you have no more nonsense to say.
Why do announcers keep making idiots of themselves 🙄
because they think they know what they are talking about when they don't.
So, is the umpire stating he left early then? It looks like he did tag up around the time of the catch; and his reaction is to the HPU signaling him to go to 3rd. Are you saying he must RE-tag up after the ball is dead?
He didn’t tag up at all from what I saw.
Technically, the ball was alive at the time of the catch. If he was touching second at the moment the catcher touched the ball and then left the base toward third base before the carry out of play, I would expect that he would not be out on appeal; he would have already satisfied his requirement to re-touch before the ball became dead, thus not need to re-touch again during the dead ball and award of 3rd.
@Mark Johnson The clip doesn't show it but he tagged up during the foul fly and most likely left 2B legally on the catch. He didn't have to retag during the dead ball if he tagged legally during the live ball.
@@davej3781 It was a bit of mystery to U3 also because he got with U2 between innings, most likely to ask what he saw.
Dont make sense because guys catch foul balls all the time and fall into the stands
How does it not make sense? If there are runners on base they all get one base when a fielder leaves the field of play after making a catch.
@@alanhess9306 It was a foul ball. Players catch foul balls all the time and fall into the stands You dont advance on a foul ball.
Before youtube but after weed, we spent four years debating this scenario but the main smoker always asked, what if the runner had achieved the next base before the ball went out of play. So in this instance let's say that the runner has rounded 3rd instead of being 4 steps off of second. Ball is caught and then the player leaves the field. Dead ball. When and how can he legally retouch the base he has achieved, 3rd, thenreturn and touch 2nd and then return to 3rd, which he would then be awarded all while the ball is dead. While we all agree that's what he needs to do, the question was always, how can you do that during a dead ball. One thing has changed since then, we have youtube now.
He wouldn't have achieved third. That's like saying a runner can stay on third on a fly out to right field because he advanced there as the ball was in the air.
Good question. Once the ball is dead a runner cannot retouch a missed base if they've advanced to and touched a base beyond the missed base. In your case - if he's standing on third when the ball becomes dead, he can't go back to retouch 2nd. See Rule 5.09(c) approved ruling - specifically part (B)
@@natebrowell4646 You must be a smoker too.
@@user-zr6pl6nb6z A runner can stay at 3rd on a fly out, but shall be called out on proper appeal at 2nd base. If no appeal is made and a subsequent play occurs (Usually a pitch) he sure as ganja achieved whatever base he is now standing on. All of this is coming from an umpire pov. An umpire never says to the runner, "You need to go back to 2nd" in your scenario.
@@joshnaudi You keep thinking he'll stay at third.
Dumb rule. At any level (or age) if the ump points a player to the next base the obvious thing to do is go to that base. And we wonder why fans are leaving baseball.
It's not a dumb rule, it's a dumb base runner. How hard is it to tag up?
Baseball is getting to be BS just like Football became for sissies. Play the game!
baseball has so many of the dumbest rules in any sport ever, and they wonder why viewers and interest has declined so much. can you imagin in us football if the refs gave the offense 5yd, then called them offsides on the next play for being at the new line.
That is one very bad analogy.
What a dumb rule
Not a dumb rule, dumb base runner.
This rule made perfect sense until the advent of the automatic IBB (a rule I despise), which has created inconsistency in the game’s administrative rules. Intentional walks no longer require the pitcher to throw the intentional balls, yet a runner is still required to touch up in certain situations when awarded the next base. The modernization of the former (as much as I despise it) makes the archaism of the latter seem silly.
The introduction of the automatic IBB has nothing to do with the fact that all runners must touch their bases in order, and may not leave their base on a fly ball until it is first touched.
interesting, guess you could say this is like a reverse infield fly rule.
Not even close.
More accurately, one could say this is **nothing** like a "reverse" infield fly rule.
Im telling u this rules are changing the worlds greatest game…
This rule has been around forever.
Right call but another example of baseball's "stupid" rules. Like having to circle and touch all bases for an Out of park homerun.
To legally score you need to touch all bases. It's called baseball for a reason.
@@matthewmaning4859 I thought it was called Hitballdontrun
Great explanation. Horrible rule though. Just another reason baseball is my least favorite of the major sports.
What part do you dislike about the rule requiring runners to tag up on a base that they have left before a fly ball is touched by the defense?
@@teebob21 The part when the player is rewarded the base during a DEAD BALL but is still required to "tag up". That is what I feel is stupid. Semantics for no purpose but to cause confusion. If the play is dead or halted, then it shouldn't be restarted until the everything is in proper order.
I don't know if this is in the rules, but when a runner starts on 2nd base in the 10th inning onward, do they have to touch 1st base before they go to 2nd to start the inning? If they do, then that is equally stupid and would be the same semantics.
@@xragg It's very simple. All bases must be touched in legal order. It is not legal to advance to a farther base if a runner has not completed his baserunning responsibilities at a preceding base. This is ALWAYS the rule. It doesn't matter whether the ball is alive or dead.
The ball is dead after a home run or ground rule double, but all bases must be touched in legal order. No one who has a passing familiarity with baseball questions or doubts this. The scenario in this play is no different. All bases must be touched in legal order. The penalty for failure to do so is an out, if properly appealed by the defense.
The only times a runner is not required to do this are foul balls, and the placement of the last batter of the inning on 2B to begin extra innings.
@@teebob21 If is so "simple", then why did professionals and announcers who do nothing but cover the game get it wrong? Why does it take a podcaster who does nothing but explain intricacies of the game have to explain it? I didn't say that wasn't in the rules. I said it is stupid. He didn't skip a base. He only did what the ump instructed and then was penalized because he didn't "dance like a monkey" and go back and tag up. Defend it all you want, but the sport is dying, and to me, this is a small example of why.
@@xragg Because for some reason players, coaches, managers, fans, and *especially* announcers DON'T KNOW THE RULES. There are exceptions, of course, but broadly speaking they just don't know them.
It's the same at the top levels of play as it is down at 8U.
This is what happens when you get too many lawyers making rules.
This rule has been the same since roughly 1900 when the "tag-up on fly balls" rule was invented. This isn't new.
Bad call
Explain how it is a bad call and I will tell you why you are wrong.
@@alanhess9306 ump told him to go at 3rd
But I didn't see him not tag the bag
@@davecormier4409 It is the umpire's job to tell him to go to the awarded base. It is the runner's job to know he needs to tag up.
@@davecormier4409 Apparently the umpire saw him not tag up.