Engine Out! Full-Down Autorotation Training With
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 ก.ย. 2024
- Dr. Paul Salmon from @Cape Copters did full down autorotation training with me at Stennis International Airport in Mississippi. This is the first of three days of training. www.capecopters.com
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Love how the instructor is so good that he shows you how to do those final few feet badly and it still looks smooth and safe!
Rob that was something that really made me smile, too. “Stupid instructor tricks” lol
Woah that was amazing watching that training it gave me so much more insight to getting a Helo down. Im not a pilot, just a HGV driver, but I love aviation. CW keep up the good work, looking forward to more vids.
23:09 Awesome fly-by of VFA-204 _River_ _Rattlers_ F/A-18s.
41:47 VFA-204 Legacy Hornets with the Aggressor scheme visible. (Modex 400 CAG Bird and 405)
43:50 "Weak" Hornet take off. xD
Forgot to mention the MAFFS C-130, Japanese Air Force V-22s undergoing retrofits, the T-38C from Columbus, and the P-3 which I believe is from an ally nation based on livery (can't tell from camera). Always some cool stuff at Stennis.
That's awesome, Mover's old squadron.
Keep it up man, every time I watch your videos it’s a new adventure
Awesome.
Three absolute professionals on board and you guys have produced one of the best instructional videos ever - at least for us light helo / GA type pilots.
Kudos to the guy in the left seat for a smoothly moderated style while explaining the margins available and techniques to use them as needed. Great flying from the right seat and YES, nerves of steel in the back.
Owned a 44 Raven II and loved it - but NZ instructors were not willing to teach full down autos. So I got that from RHC in Torrance, CA. Then, back in NZ kept myself current (solo) with what the Robinson Pilot Safety course instructors had taught. Yeah I did touch the tail skid once, not heavily, on grass. No damage.
Usual standard for training and recurrency in NZ was to flare with power recovery at ~30' however with much steeper approach than you guys were showing. I speculate this was due the mountainous and heavily forested terrain, so an auto might have to be conducted into a tight hole with little or no run on. Luckily never got challenged with that.
Related subject - flew FW prior to helicopters. Junior / ab initio NZ instructors hated spin training and avoided it if they could. Incipient, maybe. Developed, oh no "that mild wing drop stall was a spin, y'know". Was lucky enough to get that aspect of training sorted out in Sweden with a top aerobatics guy in a Citabria Decathlon. Sadly Göran passed away later during an air race in Malta.
GA, and airline pilot (eg AF447) training curricula seem to be slipping behind where they need to be, IMO.
I think Stephanie was quite brave even though I'm sure she was confident in the fact that she was in two good pairs of hands. I'm not sure everybody would jump at the chance of being a passenger when someone's practicing emergency procedures.
"We'll count both those landings..." :) And just nothing more enjoyable than watching a great teacher and a capable students working together!
For anyone interested, here's the procedure for the R44 so you can follow along better:
POWER FAILURE ABOVE 500 FEET AGL
1. Lower collective immediately to maintain rotor RPM.
2. Establish a steady glide at approximately 70 KIAS.
3. Adjust collective to keep RPM between 97 and 108%
or apply full down collective if light weight prevents attaining above 97%.
4. Select landing spot and, if altitude permits, maneuver so landing will be into wind.
5. A restart may be attempted at pilot’s discretion if sufficient time is available
6. If unable to restart, turn unnecessary switches and fuel valve off.
7. At about 40 feet AGL, begin cyclic flare to reduce rate of descent and forward speed.
8. At about 8 feet AGL, apply forward cyclic to level ship and raise collective just before touchdown to cushion landing.
Touch down in level attitude with nose straight ahead.
Thank you! A couple questions out of curiosity: What is the typical RPM @ 100% for say this type of aircraft? How much RPM over 100% could the rotor handle? Is there a ‘red’ zone? I’m not a pilot, & never been in a heli, but I find them so interesting. I only fly an RC copter for hobby. Actually I can’t even say I ‘fly’ it, I can hover with the stability of a drunk student pilot.
@@OVRxNxOUT Every % in an R44 is 4 RPM, so 100% is 400 RPM. 108% RPM is the highest the rotor RPM is permitted to go before an inspection is necessary, but as with anything, there's some engineered-in buffer before the mast would simply snap off.
@@Daishi0861 Wow, so that is a lot less RPM than I was expecting for some reason. It makes sense though as out that far the blades are still going extremely fast creating tons & tons of G-force on them. Plus it’s what, considered 1 rotor with 2 blades right? So effectively that’s 800RPM @ the cost of only 400RPM. That’s cool. Thanks for the explanation.
I switch #2 and #3… I’m more worried about a rotor over speed than aircraft speed.
And #5… there isn’t time.
This is the exact video I needed. Just did my 8th hour since my eye surgery (15.8h total) and I feel like autos are my real achilles heel. Can't wait for good winds to go try out the information in this video. Big thanks Mover and Dr. Paul!
Wow Lester looks great! Did he change his skin care routine?
lol🤣
When you land, and shut down the engine, there's still a lot of energy in the rotor. For how long do you have to "fly" the aircraft, before the energy decays below a point, where it no longer can affect the aircraft in a dangerous way?
On the R-44, you disengage the clutch before shutdown, then wait 30 seconds after shutdown before engaging the rotor brake.
There is a lot more energy reserve in the aircraft fwd speed. Robinson helos are well known for low inertia rotor systems - there is actually very little reserve energy in the rotor. Not a problem - just fly the profile and all is well.
R-44 has decent inertia, the R-22, not so much. The 44 autos a lot like a Bell 206.
@@gwfowler True.
@@stevebroadbent5080 I think he is just asking how long after engine shutdown , not after any kind of autorotation etc. I might me wrong but that’s how it reads to me. The answer to me would be that it’s airframe dependent
Great video, Mover. I'm not a helicopter pilot (C-172) but after seeing this video, I find it hard to believe that this is not part of the Private course. This is simple, life saving skills.
Autos *are* part of the PPL, at least when I did it in 2001. All could be done with power recovery, but I was lucky enough to have a couple CFIs that were not afraid go Full Down.
(resists making snide comments about an ex-girlfriend 😁)
Yea he says at the beginning - 1st time since his PPL flight test.
Auto's are a big part of the PPLH syllabus, you can't practice them solo in a hired aircraft.
I think you will find the reason full down autos are not done during initial training is the risk they will be done wrong and bend the machine. Better to have a few more hours of experience first. That and the rental costs would double just to cover skid shoe replacement ;-)
either those shoes are way more slippery than I think or this really shows how much energy is in the system when you land - that's a LOT of sliding
Yeah holding the collective up makes it slide pretty far. You can save some shoes on the skids by lowering collective slowly while sliding across the pavement and it’ll slow the aircraft to a stop more quickly but the shoes are made for it so whatever is safest for the situation.
Cool video Mover - really interesting the depths they go to in CPL training, like you said, I'm surprised you don't learn all that in the PPL course. Stephanie was very cool in the back, I hope she got a good meal to make up for it :-D Looking forward to the next one.
This is not required for anything other than CFI training, which is a shame to me. We weren't doing it for the purpose of any rating - just the experience and knowledge.
@@CWLemoine Time at stick and pedal is gold, thanks Mover for sharing.
@@CWLemoine No better reason needed.
@@CWLemoine That's the best reason really. It does remind me of the conversations I used to have with the CFI on the airfield I used to work on - I could never understand why they removed spin recovery training from the PPL syllabus - something that could save somebody's life? Never made any sense to me.
Keep doing what your doing, always great to watch your stuff. Currently working my way through your interviews and loving them and I've just finished Executive Reaction - good stuff!
You're sure getting some good cards in the chopper quest. Paul could be Lester's brother ! Another excellent instructor.
it is insane 37:58 you'd think this would be part of a license, because it can literally save your life. And your passenger's life. The timing for when to pull collective and etc is not something you can learn on the fly(okay that's a pun I guess), you absolutely need to train for it
Stephanie is courageously sitting in the pax compartment. I am a bit surprised that the FAA rules do allow for that
One of your best videos yet Mover!!
And the hornet take off at the end?!?! What a day!!!!!
Ahh shoot, I haven’t seen steph without a flight suit on lol
I would try to follow the F-18 jets even I know it would be like chasing race car on a bicycle.
Never get tried of watching fighters take off remenber doing loss of tail rotor landings on a sand bar in the DaNang river not fun for the skids
As a rotor guy, I could never land a fixed wing. I always wanted to hover the plane on the numbers and my CFI would have to slam the power in before we dropped out of the sky. And you're doing great! Everything in a Robinson is exaggerated because they're so extremely light. You ever fly a heavier helicopter and you'll be amazed how much easier it is. Most of my time is in a '58.
Wow! I feel like I've done a biennial on auto's! Great info, great instructor, great vid. Thanks for bringing us along, Mover.
I guess they don't call them _"skids",_ for nothing...
He's not Lester though, I'm enjoying the different styles and, the specifics (instructions/guidance) on the _"Full-Down"_ auto-rotations - @Charlie-Whiskey, you're building quite the _"tapestry"_ of training - Paul, has a good sense of practicality and humor, too - glad Stephanie, was along for this, as well!
Happy 4th Thursday, November, 08.39 Zulu - _"73"_ and out-
(Edit) I forgot to mention... the F/A-18's _"Hornets"_ didn't hurt the 'show' one bit - it's tough that it made you _"sad"_ (I get the gist) but... you've done that (and more) and, now this too... _"your pockets ain't empty"_ my friend - Fast and Furious-
Dr. Salmon appears to be an excellent instructor!
I really like that gyro stabilized camera! It really makes it.
Training gold right there. Good stuff.
Awesome video and those Hornets are fantastic. Steph only there for moral support, I’d guess with her career she is well versed in these techniques?
She was there for the training. She observed and then went out and did them herself.
@@CWLemoine Oh excellent, thanks for the reply. I could feel your sadness watching those Hornets. On the plus side you have the benefit of having flown those and other awesome aircraft, something many of us can only dream of.
I don't know if I can hear 1TB and not think of stevo
It's been 40 years but the Huey crew chief in me still cringes at those touch down autos on pavement!
Waiting for the "That's way to much sliding" comments.....unless you have done full-downs, don't say anything............
do you practice flame out landings in fighters like helos practice autorotations? or is strictly a procedure
Yes.
Excellent instructor. Interesting video learning techniques.
wow! really cool video! i've never seen the sliding landing. really cool to watch you learn this technique. can't wait for the next one
Damn Mover this really is amazing. Full down autos are something that so few instructors/schools will teach and everything you said I certainly relate to and I am guessing that most other helicopters also feel the same. Especially your comment about how unprepared you would have been with just your private license if you had an actual mechanical failure. Thanks for doing this.
Man if you weren't doing that on a hard flat surface, that would be really scary. I can't imagine if you have to go down on grass or sand.
Actually easier on grass, not sure about soft sand, but if that was the case just pitch back a bit further on contact and benefit from the braking action.
"R44 for sale, barely used, hardly a scratch on it"
That was really interesting!! I didn't know they would porpoise on the skids!?! And/or touch the rotor down?! Have to check the 'fruit of the looms' after one of those!! I could just hear Lester now! LOL 8) --gary
Thanks Mover, this video is knowledge dense, no fluff, meant as a complement; superb!
River 11 gotta show off. ;) Whenever we had fighters land at our airport they always did some kind of show for us.
CW. Go’s in top ten list. Cool autos w/pavement sliding, Natalie, and F18s. What more do you need
That looked like a lot of work, but also a lot of fun. Hornets are always a bonus as is Stephanie 🚁
Thank you for this video I understand helicopters a little better now.
TOMNETS! uhh... HORNCATS! I mean ... whatever.
You’ve come a long way since you got the ticket and you can see the smoothness in your flying.
You wear all the safety gear when flying around the jet… then nothing in the helicopter.
The seat belt will not stop you from flying through the plastic… and when these hit hard, fuel is going everywhere, including on the engine… fire 🔥
I wear motorcycle underarmor under my flight suit and flame resistant hood under my helicopter helmet.
I work on both sides of the airfield at tyonek and millionair and I have not met you once. Maybe next time you fly in we could meet ill buy lunch at the Cafe. Have watched you for years and enjoy your videos.
The scraping of the skids makes me cringe… I hate the thought of damaging the helicopter.
Nice flying. Thanks for throwing in the Hornets.
AMAZING INGENUITY AND MASTER INSRUCTOR USING BLADEPOWER 😍
this video was incredible, and so valuable from a genuinely fantastic instructor. Keep the great content coming!
Practicing this maneuver has to be nerve wracking!
nice job checking carb heat in the raven 😂
Pleasure form start to finish 💪
Another awesome episode!!!!
I thought you said you were not continuing (training.)
he must go through a lot of skid shoes.
I said I wasn’t continuing with that helicopter. I finished PPL and CPL.
@@CWLemoinegreat to hear!😊
4000 hr helicopter CFI here with real world forced landing experience. These are smoothly executed with ineffective technique. I don't know the density altitude/weight/wind variables so I can't say zero ground run is possible, but the length of that ground run is somewhat shocking in an R44. This is a guaranteed roll-over on anything other than an excellent surface. If you are in pilot training I beg you to find an instructor that's willing to teach you maximum reasonable flare effect and minimum ground run autorotation. Engine out to an unimproved surface, ground run = danger.
Dr Salmon is a 15000 hr CFI. This was day 1 of 3. Your comment is unnecessary.
I used to work in AIMD and would fix black boxes on those River Rattler Aircraft, Though the P3's sent us much more to do :) Go Navy!!
this video shows the difference between someone who just wants to get a PPL and one who understands the importance of continuing training beyond the minimum. let this be a lesson to those striving for a ppl even in a cessna, to continue to further your training in any form of recovering beyond PPL instruction. it just may save the passengers life and yours!
mover, awesome video, i knew that had to hit a soft spot in your heart wishing you were still in the F18 seat. while that will never depart your senses, its a beautiful thing you had experienced those opportunities in your serving, that millions of us wish we could have.
keep the content coming! it helps with my depression im dealing with right now so thank you for the amount of work you put into your videos. its greatly appreciated and does not go unnoticed
Wow! Was very impressed. Never had a ride in a helicopter before! Excellent instructor. Am thinking maybe I should have been a pilot instead of a truck driver! You don’t have idiots cutting in front of you and stopping, nobody giving you the finger, blowing the horn, dot stopping you, costly you money. The school where I learned to drive, just had empty box trailers and they didn’t explain stuff. Driving schools should be on a closed airport where there is plenty of room. With a long runway, they could show students how long it takes to panic stop, with different kinds of trucks. Was real jealous of all the room you had and how many times you were allowed to practice. Don’t know if I would still be jealous about flying at night or in snowy weather. Do you have rainx on the windscreen? Does that helicopter have doors that you can put on? How can you tell which way the wind is coming from? Is autorotation part of your license?
MOVER getting a fly by. ❤️
That was brilliant!
Kudos to the squadron!
I did not know that the R-44 would bring the throttle back up automatically with the collective after rolling it off during an auto. I'm not a Robinson guy, so that is good to know.
great stuff mover, i've been struggling with doing huey autorotation in DCS, haven't lived through one yet, but this information fills in some gaps, a real step by step would be even better
if you want a step by step, I'm sure there's a manual for the huey out there that goes through emergency procedures
@@moonasha reading how to do it isn't the same as having someone who knows how to do it instructing you, i've already read the manual and plenty of other material, thanks for assuming incorrectly, probably why mover went to an instructor
I found this video helped a lot with both Huey and MI8. Focus on not dropping or raising the nose any more than necessary.
"don't matter which the tail's pointing, it's a heleeecopter". That right there is the biggest mental block fixed-wing pilots will face...
Mover, I understand that feeling that youre not doing what you used to. Being pit crew instead of driver is just holding on to whatever you can.
Soooo jealous. I have to do some full down training soon. I will say with the run-on landings keeping the nose down feels very unnatural for me coming from a fixed wing background.
Very good video. I enjoyed watching. Thanks for sharing. Take care and God Bless.
Stephanie talking about her " Rucker days" I use to work on the 58s there and we replaced a lot of skid shoes.
In the auto's, when you say say 3-2-1 down, am I the only one saying in my head, "right, aft"?
Wow that was some wonderful training right there! If anything to instill even more confidence that if you get an engine out it's not anything you cannot handle. Getting those muscle memory items in place and just hope the weather is not blowing too hard! Thanks C.W
great training.
what I think is hairy is touching one skid on a 30 degree slope while still keeping the helicopter in a hover with the other skid still well off the ground...just not Natural.
This video training with the Dr of Helicopters was amazing. I learnt things.
I wonder if the C-130 guys stopped what they were doing every time the heard the skids.
I had the opportunity to do full downs with my instructor before he got a big boy pilot job. I honestly don’t know why it’s not taught at the private level.
how do these CFIs stay so calm? I know its helps the student and they do it all the time but sheesh that would be nerve wracking.
Thanks for sharing these full lesson videos with us, incredibly interesting and entertaining stuff
Spectacular!
definitely alot of different energies you have to manage all at once. Looks fun skidding in though:)
Great flying and video. That instructor was top notch.
Autos are the ultimate proficiency maneuver.
Go Navy
I thought all the legacy hornets were retired. Nice to see them still flying.
one tango bravo!
Man, that's a lot of pucker factor going on right there!
Did you get a chance to say hello to the Rattlers before they departed?
That carrier break puts a smile on my face every time.
youre in my neck of the woods. went to highschool right next door
Sometimes a simple like just doesn't seem enough.
Does autorotation actually do anything? The list of chopper crashes seems endless. And it never seems to come in play.🤔
Yes. Saves your life and possibly the aircraft
@@CWLemoine doubt that
The instructor in the video, Paul, is my instructor. Believe it or not he had to make an actual autorotation in California a few weeks ago. There are cases upon cases upon cases of autorotations saving both lives and helicopters but you of course don’t hear about a successful autorotation on the news, only the tragic failures.
Doubt that based on what? Paul himself has done many successful autos.
@@CWLemoine Okay then. Just seems rarely in play.
Nice looking. Hehehe have done that in real life a few times
10:50 That looked quite unpleasant XD
I am now a DCS huey autorotation expert
Awesome didn't know that you could do that in helos
were you tempted to say hello Mover??
Awesome instruction, 😥for the Hornet.
I guess thats why they call them skids.
Gyro voters are always in a state of autorotation
That's one great instructor..😳👍
😊
Why almost every helicopter in USA does not have side doors closed.. Huey, Blackhawk, Little bird etc..
On this one the doors were removed because it was hot and it has no AC.
Because ... burritos 😂👍
@@CWLemoine ah ok thanks, but also some others dont have doors and some of them dont have doors in war conditions, isnt it kinda unsafe for pilots?
No.
Helicopter doors aren't really there to protect you from anything. With the exception of a couple of attack helicopters, they're not bulletproof. In hotter climates, you'll often want the doors off for ventilation. The tradeoff is noise I suppose, which isn't much of a problem if everyone are wearing hearing protection anyways.