I'm sure I remember in one of his videos, there's a sequence of coffee being "unmade", through a bit of video maker magic - can't find it because I think it was just a throw-away sequence in the middle of a video and not the main topic. Maybe someone else will be able to point to it...
As a chemist who deals with concentrations and dilutions every day I hadn’t considered how unintuitive the concepts are to most people - knowing from the start what the results/tests/justifications would be I can say this was an amazing process and explanation, and a super enjoyable watch :)
I’m not a chemist, or a scientist of any sort, but even I was surprised that anyone would ever have thought it would be the other way about - that a shorter espresso (albeit “stronger”) would produce a stronger milk drink. It seems obvious to me that more of the fluid with the extracted material in it would lead to more of a flavour of the extracted material…
@@shawzy620 Haha yeah I think it totally varies from person to person!! Especially with espresso where a stronger smaller espresso will actually taste stronger so it’s easy to see how one could skip over the dilution factor and just conclude that the end drink will also be stronger
@@shawzy620same. Though I would consider myself some sort of scientist but I have nothing to do with dilution or concentration of solubles but it’s pretty much common sense. It was fun watching the explanation but so unnecessary. I’d consider it common sense which one is stronger. If anything mentioning the less Espresso the more milk wouldve been enough explanation 😅
I initially made the assumption that the amount of milk added was constant and not the mass/volume of the final drink. Once I understood that the final drink was the constant it was fairly obvious
@@shawzy620 "It seems obvious to me that more of the fluid with the extracted material in it would lead to more of a flavour of the extracted material." However, this is not correct. Or at least it is not what James demonstrated here. The reason for the weaker shot making the stronger drink is not that it uses more of the _flavoured fluid_ , but rather that it contains more of the _extracted material_ (because more of it has been extracted from the grounds).. Even a very small amount of fluid can result in a stronger final drink as long as it contains more grams of extracted material then the alternative. The only relevant factors for the final strength are (1) mass of extracted material and (2) volume of the final drink. Since the volume of the final drink is constant, only the mass of the extracted material remains as determining factor.
Another taste test video!! ALL the versions of milk. Whole, 2%, skim, lactose free, oat, barista oat, unsweetened oat, soy, almond, rice, chocolate, give me them all!!
I prefer skim (cow) milk over whole milk, or any of the alternatives I have tried. Oat milk is probably second. but I don't like heavy, fatty foods either.
@@BleachedBlackSocks That's because lactose free milk is a lie! It still contains just as much lactose as regular milk, they just add the enzyme lactase which breaks it down into glucose and galactose. The glucose is what makes the milk taste sweeter
I have a cheap espresso machine that I can't get a scale under, so never measure my shots. Don't bother too much as I don't drink espresso anyway, only use it for making milk drinks when I fancy a change from filter coffee. 16g in is normal for me though, purely because that's what the double shot basket with the machine can take, so will try it with 14g for a fun experiment. As an aside, I love that this channel doesn't publish videos on a schedule like so many on youtube. Makes videos feel much more natural and like a treat when they arrive.
from my experience in food-service for around 10 years, the biggest part of the battle is being comfortable with your equipment! You dont have to have the nest machines or equipment in the world to pull off something amazing, you just need to really get used to the equipment's ins-and-outs.
@@jidduv I could, but given it's a DeLonghi machine I have no control over any of the other factors, so I tend not to bother. I'd be a lot more concerned, or would get a better machine, if I was an espresso drinker but I'm not.
I also love the lack of scheduling! It flies in the face of common TH-cam algorithm wisdom, but for a channel of this quality it works as variable reinforcement. Like limited edition marketing. Brain goes brr when James uploads lol
This is so on point. All this measuring to the gram kind of misses the point. It seems a whole cohort of coffee snobs are more concentrated on their little scale than they are on the coffee itself.
I think I've finally realized why I find your channel so comforting. It's not just your voice, but the fact that you straight up sound like Winnie the Pooh talking about coffee, and I can't stop hoping that you might one day say "oh bother" 😂. And I mean this in the most complimentary way possible. Incidentally, if you ended up creating a podcast where you talked about honey, that would be endgame.
I think the comment of "add enough milk to fill the cup" is key. I measure out my latte components before mixing them all together, so the milk volume is the same whether I use ristrettos or lungos. I feel like the coffee drives how long the shots go. If the coffee is stronger, I feel like the flavours pop out more to due the milk not being a variable. However, the idea of moving to less coffee to get more of the coffee stuffs into the water is def an interesting concept to experiment with. This will def be something I play with. This will also undoubtedly lead me to determine if there's a limit to how long of a shot is too long. Thank you, James! Best, -Luis
been over a decade since i experimented with all this but i think i'm right in saying, another variable is the longer the shot (without going too long - ie: ristretto or espresso) the more bitter flavours, so it will make the drink taste 'stronger' in that it will be slightly more bitter. is that correct?
Same exact thoughts. I like my drinks strong and thick, so my thinking has always been to minimize water in all components (I have tested limits with condensed/evaporated, 7% fat, and even distilled milks). But now the question stands, what quantity of coffee solid is worthwhile to pull before it's just a cup of dirty water? Isn't this just what the worst quality instant coffee manufacturers do anyway? This video has only raised more questions
@@i22321 In distilling they break the distillate into groups or "cuts". For example if you were hoping to make 1L, the first 100mL might be your heads. You'd toss this. Then take samples every 200mL or whatever until you start getting bad flavors at which point you stop and obviously don't add it to the pot of "good stuff". This should be easy enough to do with espresso. Just get 6-8 shot glasses. We all know the first 30g are good. Then start collecting 5-8mL at a time into different glasses then try each one separately.
@@gordonbowe That's something people have done it's called a Salami shot. You sample the different parts of the extraction to get an idea of how it works.
@@BensCoffeeRants cool, I've never heard of that before but it was highly unlikely that there is anything left that nobody has tried, especially something so basic.
I've been pulling longer 1:2.2 shots for my milk drinks for awhile now and have always found these to be preferred over a ristretto style shot! Thanks for an awesome video!
4:03 "Uh, honey... why are you mixing the Instant Coffee we keep at the back for the cupboard 'cause we hate it, with ghee and water? I asked you if you could make a latte for me..." "Hoffmann told me so.., uh, I think, anyways"
"Deconstructed as it would be 10 years earlier so you can make it yourself maybe foam it yourself and you had a great time and then you'd complain about it....anyways" sounds like he had this exact experience serving someone 😂😂😂😂
@@bcvanwijk in Australia (and i'll assume UK after seeing this), it was all the rage to serve deconstructed everything. But, whether you were working in a restaurant or purchasing the product, we all eventually realized, we'd rather just have the expert make the drink for us....or having a deconstructed cheesecake was stupid because of obvious reasons. So, after everyone got their IG pics out of the way, the complaining to ourselves, the staff, and our friends began
@@thefuturetom It was all the rage in the U.S. for a while. I have at various points in my life worked around fine dining, and even back then I used to make fun of the whole "deconstructed" craze such that every time I heard a chef say it, I would have rolled my eyes if I could, but I can't so...
@@jeffreypenkoff6178 Funnily enough Michael Spicer just did a video on foodies ruining food, and he does a gag about deconstructed food ("You just dropped it on the floor didn't you")
Another simpler way to test how much flavour are your extracting: grinding finer, 16g in, 32g out, add 68g water grinding course, 16g in, 40g out, add 60g water As you are adding water instead of milk, it's much easier to pick out the coffee flavour without being disturbed by the milk.
@@tommysatrya4719 Quick answer: Smallest possible dose (depends on portafilter) Finest possible grind (without channeling) Highest possible brew ratio (before it tastes bitter and hollow) Real answer: It depends.
This was one of the best videos you've made in a very long time! I love the idea of not wasting so much coffee, but actually getting more flavor by not wasting coffee!
I brewed up another K-cup just to watch this video. James, I've never pulled an espresso shot, and I doubt I ever will. But keep making your videos; eventually I'll figure out what keeps me coming back.
We primarily have milk drinks in my apartment, so I'm going to give this a try and see if I can tell a difference. If there's little to no difference you could easily get 3 more drinks out of a 12oz (340g) bag of coffee, which might not seem like a lot, but when you go through a bag every 2 weeks it can add up.
At a time in the world where there’s so much happening that’s bad….. Just watching The Hoff nerding out to the max, somehow makes things a tiny bit better
Quick random comment from the perspective of latte art: I’ve personally always found it easier to pour a nice pattern with a shorter shot. Couldn’t exactly tell you why, but my assumptions include just an overall lower quantity of crema and hence less resistance against the flow of microfoam and more “room” to get a complicated pattern in the cup.
I'm a beginner. I've had an espresso machine for about a month now and with help from you and others, I think I'm getting pretty good espresso shots and Americanos. However, my experience with milk drinks is that the espresso just doesn't matter that much. As you said, the milk seems to be a really strong buffer and your taste test seems to support that. I need more practice, though. My "foam" is about half warm milk, half actual foam, so maybe I should get that sorted before getting too opinionated.
I have using 18g beans 36g out and 20g beans 40g out over the last few week with 100g of soya milk . Then 18g beans 40g out 100g milk . The last combo gave me a slightly more sweeter and fuller mouth feel , for some reason the coffee shot tastes more intense and flavourful . So I will now try 16g beans , 40g out , with 92g milk and see what that tastes like . Great informative video yet again James cheers .
@@anderss867 The cream we have where I am is aprox 37% fat by volume, 2% protien. If you're using a steam wand (like on an espresso machine) its really hard to damage the structure compared to milk and you can just blast it on an angle to get it moving around the pitcher until it's foamy and at temperature, you also want to draw in a lot of air with the wand. It can take a long time if you treat it gently like milk. Otherwise using a small electric wisk you just get it moving around your vessel until foamy. It's is cream after all and will whip, I think drawing air in during the process is the most important part. Cream doesn't have the protein content of milk so its stability for latte art might be worse. When you steam/froth milk you create longer protein structures or links that hold together a little bit. I personally pull espresso directly into preheated/foamed/steamed cream. The fat content in the cream stops a lot of the volatile oils in the coffee from becoming as bitter and it captures more of a ristretto like flavour IMO. I used to measure but now I eyeball aprox 100ml of cream to a doubleshot (aprox 60ml). Also FWIW I eat a ketogenic diet so my body likely tolerates the high fat content better than others.
As someone who works with concentrations and dilutions daily, I never realized how tricky these concepts can be for others. This was an amazing explanation and super fun to watch! 😊
I've been making lattes at home daily for 10+ years, and home roasting my beans for ~7 years. I use a low range burr grinder and don't weigh my beans - just use 'a handful' (horror, I know! Though after your "Average Espresso" video, out of curiosity I weighed my portafilter for a week and was at a consistent 18-19 grams - so my process is very dialed in). My shots weight a whopping 50-52 grams - so a pretty "weak" shot, but oh man, my lattes are so good, and better than most coffee shops I go to. I always had a sense that my longer shots contributed to more flavor - this is such confirmation for me!
Hi, I home roast too. What do you roast on? I use a metal cube drum over a gas camping stove. Approximately 200g batches in and finish around 170g roasted.
I can't be bothered adjusting the grinder length between changing types of coffee - I just count from anywhere 8 - 12 in my head, and adjust next time if needed. Similar to your 'handful'
@@kg-Whatthehelliseventhat Just a metal cowboy popcorn popper (temp gauge added) over a gas stove burner with 228g (1/2 lb) batches. I tend to pull midway through first crack (I'd call City Minus (not a real term) or light roast) through the calm between cracks (I'd call City+ or medium).
I really appreciate this test. It confirms the way I’ve been doing it for years now. I am a morning latte guy with whole milk. I always pull a longer shot for my milk drinks as they just taste better. The flavor is more well rounded and it better balances the sour/sweet/bitter notes. Thanks!!
James, I really enjoyed the video. However, there’s something to consider regarding the final concentration of a latte made with a 40g longer shot. Let me break it down with some calculations: TDS of a 32g ristretto shot: 10.8% → Solubles: 3.456g, Water: 28.544g TDS of a 40g longer espresso shot: 9.2% → Solubles: 3.68g, Water: 36.32g Assuming 90% water content in the milk: Water in the ristretto latte: 90g Water in the longer shot latte: 82.8g As a result, the total water content in the ristretto latte is 118.544g, while it’s 119.12g in the longer shot latte. This means the latte made with the longer shot contains more water, which can lead to a more pronounced ‘watery’ taste in the final drink. Baristas often prioritize not only the richness of the espresso’s aroma but also achieving a harmonious balance with milk. While a longer extraction may yield more solubles, the weaker components and increased water content in the later stages can disrupt the overall balance, making the latte taste more diluted.
Not sure if it is just me, but you are going really fast. I like the usual and not over caffeniated James. In fact, I really like the usual James. He is terrific.
5:34 Dunno about anyone else, but I always use the same amount of cold milk at the start of brewing a milk drink, so I wouldn't get much weight variations. This also means, pulling stronger shots does make a stronger coffee for me as I'm not adding more milk to compensate, the milk amount is pretty much always the same.
I don't weight my milk, but do measure it. Still, I think Hoffman's point is more about the variances in steaming. Since we're generally chasing the volume of a full cup, the aeration will have a bigger effect. Unless you always know that the residual milk left in the cup is exactly the same...
@@_mball_ oh actually one thing I didn't consider is nowadays I tend to use one of the standalone milk frothers you get for pod machines as I can let that run while I prep my coffee. So if a person was using a steam wand it would likely cause variations because the steaming would add water to the milk.
Since I just purchased a manual espresso maker, I have dived down the coffee snob rabbit hole! I was religiously going for 16 grams of beans and 32 ounce shot. I use whole milk, and I love the interplay of the slightly bitter espresso agains the sweet milk. One day it was perfect even though I accidentally pulled a longer shot, and now I know why. I’m going to experiment more with less beans and longer shots. I like how James validates our individual tastes and ways of making coffee. I don’t have to do what others do, I can do it the way I like it. Thanks!
4:54 You demonstrate that the longer shot is 0.08% (stronger or roughly 3% more dried coffee material thus its more strong. Then at 5.20 you disregard that the longer shot has 0.3g or 10% LESS milk solids and go on to dismiss any other differences in the protein or solids makeup between the two. If you disregard the differences in milk concentration and argue that there is too much variability in the preparation method from day to day - then the scant 3% in strength of coffee can be argued to the same and you are dreaming if you believe the coffee is stronger. If you enjoy more milk, then the shorter shot produces the better drink because the milk is stronger! The summary could also be: use more domestic coffee with the shorter shot. You will save money - because leaving 3% extractable material behind is not justified for the 20% premium on coffee that tastes good as espresso.
I thought the same thing, the implication here is that milk solids contributes less to the overall taste than coffee, which I think is right. If you really like the taste of milk, I guess you could use powdered milk or other concentrates to enhance the flavor. It you are after milk fats, add cream, this will do a lot more than reducing the already small proportion of coffee. Alternatively, if you care more about the milk than coffee, use instant coffee in your milk.
Welcome to the slippery slope 🤣 I used to drive a Porsche. Now I drive a Peugeot but have 2 coffee machines, multiple water filters and a map of all the best roasters in my area...as far as I'm aware there isn't a coffee equivalent of Alcoholics Anonymous!
Right, but you would need either a dedicated grinder or one that is extremely accurate and can output by weight very precisely AND you would need a grouphead and timing dedicated to milk drinks as well. So, if you are doing really high volume, sure. Or, prioritize milk drinks and let the straight espresso drinkers take back seat quality wise.
I upgraded my Breville Smart Grinder Pro to a Macap Leo 55 over a week ago. I use a Rocket Giotto with IMS Sanremo basket. I am right in the middle of working towards the delicious Flat White recipe. Delicious means better than great. A slam on the kitchen bench reaction with full of emotions. It had happened a few times before. I dose my coffee grounds 19.5g in for many years and moved to 19.0g in since 2024. I also realised I had not checked the espresso weight out until a few weeks ago, and I needed to pull my socks up. I got stuck last week and decided to wait until I got time to ask for help. So this TH-cam came in the perfect timing as it provided me with some VERY clear direction to work with. So I will trial by lowering the dose starting from 18g, and work my way down. Will also look into how much less milk I will need as well. This has been great, and I hope I won't end up using a Lungo base and think it’s delicious.
If you have to make something at work with usual work materials put a couple of tsp of instant in a mug of milk and microwave until drinkable but not boiling,stir and add sugar if you need....better than traditional instant coffee....
I used to make a coffee "smoothie" with 2% milk, tsp coffee, tsp sugar, 3 tbsp coffee ice cream, and honey. Blend and enjoy. Then Walmart got rid of the coffee ice cream. My life is empty now.
Didn't even know there was a debate about this. I like my espressos around 1:2, but prefer to go 1:3 for milk drinks. As I drink equal amounts of both, I usually have everything dialed in at 1:2.5 as a compromise. I would waste too much coffee by repeatedly tweaking my grind size otherwise.
I’m very new to this and haven’t even bought a machine yet (will probably get a Breville express impress), but if you have say a single and double shot option, could you program one at 1:3 and the other at 1:2? I note that the Breville a come standard at about 1:3 I think. I usually drink milk drinks only, but I was going to try get into espressos just because during all my research I see so many people enjoy them and I want to give it a ‘shot’.
@@rover1374 You'd still have to dial in your coffee with your grinder for two different types of shots since timing might be different although you can probably get away with just letting a shot run a bit longer or shorter. I found as long as the shot doesn't run super fast you can still get good results, longer running shots seem fine to me you just have a higher risk of channeling when you're grinding too fine. So if your getting 28 second shots that are 1:2, Letting it run to 35 seconds and getting 1:3 is probably going to taste good too.
We will keep tuning and adjusting all of our customers espresso machines to exactly how they want their espresso pulls. This video was a great video that reminded us to tune the espresso machine to do exactly what the chef, customers, and baristas want the espresso concentration to be to create their drinks. Great education, James.
I've always been using 12g in my Flair machine. I think it works better balanced milk drinks than most Starbucks ones. Increasing the coffee will overpower the milk, and at 18g I might as well use evaporated milk.
I brew with 16.0 grams for many years. single Espresso. 1 Cappuccino. 2 Cappuccini. Whenever I make two at the same time, I basically go for a ratio of 1:4. 16g in, 64g out (for 2 cups) Saves time, coffee and tastes just fine.
I love all of your videos, and I know it's impossible to please everyone: my vote is to hear you slurp - because I don't mind the sound, and it feels like I'm more a part of the process with you, tasting the drinks you have in front of you. I'vee gotten used to the slurps from your earlier videos, so it feels weird not hearing them, like my brain knows something's missing. Thanks for all you do, you're the best. 💜
I’ve found shorter shots make sweeter tasting milk drinks with less bitterness. Probably a difference between lighter roasts and more conventional espresso roasts.
@@bL4KcfYREz There’s a small difference: James points out that short shots tend to the sour side in the video. That sour flavor (in my opinion) is far more preferable to the bitter compounds that tend to show up later in the shot with longer ratios, which aren’t masked nearly as much by the milk. It’s not about how much milk you have. You can try the same thing by pulling a shorter shot and using less milk, versus pulling a longer shot and using more milk. They don’t always taste the same (though in this case in the comparison James performed in the video, he couldn’t tell much difference).
No, James point is which one make stronger, not delicious or sweetness... So he still valid. Just like you i enjoy shorter shot that make it sweet and light for milk beverage
Great video! Been making flat whites from my Flair Signature for the last year with shots at a 2.5 or even 3:1 ratio (about 14g in, 35-40g out), and I love it. Glad to see James back me up :)
I've been pulling 16g/17g shots yielding 38/40 grams for over a year on my La Spaziale S2. Not one customer ever complained about the taste of the coffee. From Flat Whites to Lattes and even espresso's. I used high quality specialty coffee beans from a local roaster. Everyone agreed their drinks were very smooth tasting and full bodied. P.s. I'm really gutted you didn't slurp James 😅😂
Interesting! I'll have to try less coffee for my once a day milk drink in the morning. I already brew spro-overs using 15g of coffee to make 250g of black coffee - and I do love that!
Loved this video. I’ve always defaulted to the 18g to 32g shot for espresso in milk drinks. I can’t wait to get back home and start experimenting with the longer 16g shot.
I've been finding myself enjoying 1:1 shots of 18g in milk drinks. I don't bother making up for the strength at all. I find it brings out a lot of the subtle flavors and it's fun to compare two lattes made side by side. I'm personally way better at picking apart flavors in a latte than a pourover and I don't find the coffee flavors to be lost in the milk at all. There was a white honey gesha I was using recently that comes across almost like earl grey. I've compared 1:1 vs 1:2, and every time I've strongly preferred 1:1 shots. I've also preferred 1:1 18g shots over 1:2 7g shots.
I tried pulling a longer shot with everything dialed in the same and it massively increased the coffee flavor from my latte this morning. I'd been using less milk for that effect but then I'm left with less latte overall. This is very helpful cause i love milk drinks and always felt like I had to sacrifice volume for flavor but now I have more to enjoy thanks James!!
I worked at a famous coffee chain 20 years ago. I was at the store during the time of transition from the La Morozocco manual espresso machine to a fully automatic machine which would grind, tamp, and pour at the press of a button. Customers found the new drinks to be less flavorful, they found them to be weak. Now the old manual shot standard was between 18-21 seconds, and the new automatic was calibrated for about a 14 second shot. I reasoned that part of the difference for the flavor might be the bitterness from oxidization in the shot. When pulling manual shots you first pull some ground coffee, which falls through the air into your portafilter, then you tamp, then you pull an 18-21 second shot. You can see the heart of the shot growing beneath the crema as the shot sits in the shot glass pouring. The automatic shots are ground inside the machine, tamped immediately, and then the shot is 14 seconds long. The heart of the shot is a very thin line at the bottom of the shot glass when the shot is finished, giving you a shot that is almost entirely crema, very light, very creamy, not very bitter. So I let the automatic shots sit for a short time oxidizing. In my workflow I poured shots earlier in the drink making process so that the shots could sit in the shot glass slowly growing the heart as waves of oxidized coffee dropped through the crema collecting at the bottom. Customers claimed they could taste the difference and said they were stronger when I prepared them that way. I reasoned that the bitterness signal is creating a subjective experience of greater coffee strength. My spouse who didn't enjoy coffee at the time could drink those 14 second shots with almost no heart. I would pour the shots directly into a small amount of cold water so the shot could be consumed immediately, before oxidizing. They tasted very creamy, barely any bitterness.
woww, haven't been on your channel for a long time, first video in a while and it's a banger. i've never thought about it as i'm not a milk drink enjoyer but definitely a bargain for me as i often makes milk drinks for my family
I think James here is missing the concept of ristretto. Ristretto is not just the shorter version of espresso, with same grind size and just quicker shot time and shorter yield. If that so, then ristretto is just the strong-and-under extracted version of espresso. Ristretto is like well-extracted espresso with shorter yield, resulting in higher TDS. That means, ristretto needs finer grind size.
Caffeine : control of daily caffeine intake, 3 cups of cappuccino a day : what has worked for me : (not necessarily a recommendation) : 11gr in, of dark roasted beans, slightly coarsely ground, in a PRESSURIZED 2-shot basket, puck screen on top : 2" pre-infusion : 40gr out, full flavour bitter but nice espresso : diluted by 70gr of full fat steamed milk (goat milk when cow milk intolerance). Sugar to taste. Total 33gr coffee bean intake : approx. 200 milligrams caffeine intake. Approx. 1/2 the recommended adult max. Easy, flavourful & healthy.
I pull a *much* longer shot for lattes/cappuccino/etc, typically 4x (ie 18g -> 72ml). Good coffee makes a big difference imho; lighter roasts and floral flavors are my favorite in lattes.
@christophertstone that's a lungo shot, based on this video I imagine you're getting an even stronger drink based on the lower amount of milk compared to a typical espresso shot
Yayyy! A milk drink video!! I've been making my "cappuccinos" with James' aeropress milk drink recipe but found this video very interesting. I will use this knowledge once I've saved up for a flair neo :)
The double ristretto will have better mouthfeel and imo that tradeoff has been worth the marginal decrease on extraction. I used to make all my drinks with the standard 18 in 36 out in 30s, but switched it to 18in and 28out and I like that way better, but I agree with the premise of the video in which longer shots will have more flavor,mits just that the mouth feel makes a way bigger difference.
So many thoughts....the biggest overarching issue with JH conclusions (respect) is the light roast espresso bias, which most people don't drink (even in specialty circles) ESPECIALLY in milk drinks. I do both, but for a cafe, darker coffee in the cappuccino or larger drink is best. I like 18g in 27g out in 30 seconds. That's 1:1.5. For a medium-dark roast, that is perfect to me. Some even do 1:1.25. If I'm splitting shots to share, I stretch to 1:2. That ratio and using a little darker coffee cuts through milk better and tastes balanced (sour cappuccino is no good). I regulate perceived strength further by either using less milk or by adding another shot (if I'm down for the caffeine that day). For a longer shot, I prefer pulling it tighter and diluting with water after to avoid over extraction. You could dial in for the longer shot too, but this allows me to not have to make changes all the time (also a good hack for cafes when one customer asks for a "longo" since just running it longer without changing the grind will result in a bitter shot). In that case, that's usually how I drink it without milk. Always interesting hearing this content and I'm excited to keep learning.
The light roast bias is real. There are barely any TH-cam espresso channels that do not have a huge light roast bias. They keep making content about “coffee science”, preparation and give tips based on their liking of light roast espresso which unfortunately does not always translate to better coffee for the majority of people (especially newbies) who drink medium/dark roast.
I just can't believe that this much detail is required for people to understand/believe that if the ratio of coffee to milk is higher, the drink tastes stronger.
I love how James still continues to make these enlightening videos for everyone even though the channel's main audience would probably know all of this already.
Great validation! I stumbled upon this many months ago discovering my 40g shots produced better milk drinks than 32g shots (based off of 16g of coffee). I thought i was doing something wrong since I could not produce a better drink at 32g. Thanks for sharing the science behind this!
What a great video! Thank you so much for taking the time to do this! I’d be interested to compare a dark roasted coffee versus a light to medium coffee with The 16 g and longer pull.
@@BleachedBlackSocks Men can produce milk too, if you rub and squeeze enough. Factually correct comment, yet also somehow I've lowered the tone more than you already did. Like Liam Neeson, I have a very particular set of skills...
After trying several methods, I narrowed it down to two methods (1) moka pot (2) french press which seems to extract everything out of the grounds. I use half n half for the dairy and sweeten it with a touch of maple syrup. It just worked! I followed Jame's process for both and now work on muscle memory in the morning to make the best coffee!
I never pull shorter shots to make a stronger milk drink, but you've definitely made me interested in trying it! I'll give a 14-16g dose of coffee to a 42g espresso a try in a milk drink larger than a cortado and see how it turns out. I'll be sure to go back in a few days and share my experience
I get my coffee from Coffeevine, so a box of 3 different packs of beans from across Europe. They pack in a small magazine giving background on the roaster, but, importantly, include the recommended recipe for both filter and espresso from the roaster. I usually just follow that, and so far it hasn't been a miss. Rarely do I have to change something, the recommendations are usually spot on for a normal espresso (with or without milk).
For the past couple years, I've always done an 18g/36g shot for my milk drink in the morning. Hadn't really thought about trying something different until this video. This entire week so far I've been doing 16g/40g and have surprisingly enjoyed it more. Haven't missed the 18g shots. I won't be going back to 18g. Thanks for the video!
I always noticed having stronger tasting coffee, when pulling longer shots. I assumed this was caused by having extracted more bitter substances due to the longer extraction time, but James' explanation makes total sense. Thank you very much for clarifying! :-)
In Melbourne we have a drink called the magic, which plays off the idea of coffee strength: milk ratio. A double ristretto with textured milk, but in 5oz cup instead of 6oz. Not a drink I'd be bothered to make everyday, but certainly worth a try.
Fantastic video James! Thanks! What you showed here only tells me that the main focus still is to make the best espresso I can. And then add milk if someone prefers to have it this way. Nothing changed here. Cheers!
I heard about this video before i watched it (now) so i started a little experiment for a week pulling shots with 15g (36-40g out, i eyeball it, sue me). I exclusively drink cappuccinos and this is saving me up to 25% on my beans, it's been great! Drinks have been smoother all around with less icky notes. It does feel weird tamping so far into the basket every time though. Great stuff, thanks hoffmaestro.
Neat. I normally use milk and his nicely explains why I find it less enjoyable when people who say I make my coffee a little weak make stronger coffee with my tin of coffee even though I use good quality coffee and they buy the cheap stuff
Hi James, I made a formula for this like 10 years ago jokingly called the Wilson number. You basically put in your parameters, TDS, yield, mass of milk, and it spits out a number (adjusted to occupy a sensible range) that is meaningless until compared to that of other drinks. The higher the Wilson Number, the stronger. It had what I think I called a water correction factor, which was to take into account the impact of longer shots diluting the drink more. The exercise was a bit of fun for a mathsy person working in coffee and was used a bit to standardise drink strengths across sizes and recipes in different cafes using our coffee. In other words, I would set a desire Wilson Number and reverse engineer the recipe (using assumed values for optimal extraction yield, dose, etc). In reality it was completely useless. Except that it made me realise that the ideal latte would constitute ONLY coffee solids and milk (with its normal amount of water). Coffee dust with milk. Made me think differently about what I was aiming for with milkies. It also had to do with lowering wastage and costs. We switched to EKs for blend to be able to increase extraction and use less coffee. Ok I keep editing this as new thoughts come. Best thing to do is obviously grind the coffee as fine as humanly possible tomaximise SA:V, sieve to an extreme degree to maximise uniformity and mitigate unevenness, brew the coffee with heat and pressure, reduce the resulting 'espresso' until it's like syrup, then add hot milk. Not great for workflow, but workflow is fucked these days anyway. Practically speaking, this wouldn't work at all. There'd be no flow and it would channel too much.
This will 100% change how I pull a shot of espresso for milk drinks. The legend has spoken. 15g in instead of my default 18g in and lungo it is. Thank you James!
This makes so much sense. I've always been reluctant to make milk drinks from coffees that I tend to pull close to 1:3. I have to consider changing my ways.
This is useful to me, thank you. I have an espresso machine for the first time in ages, am a milk drink fan and was wondering about exactly this question!
There are many types of ristretto style shots at various volumes. i think ultimately what ratio is preferable entirely depends on the coffee and more importantly how the coffee was roasted. darker roasts taste less harsh at lower extractions
You know winter is coming when James has the sweater on.
He’s rarely had one off this year
You know rain is coming when someone pulls out an umbrella
It’s a stark reminder of what is to come.
James needs to tell us where he gets those lovely sweaters.
Jumper not sweater.
2:08 James has gotten so good at coffee making, he is able to defy entropy
3:18 He is even more powerful than I thought
hahaha, this comment made me laugh so much
A literal Coffee Alchemist
I'm sure I remember in one of his videos, there's a sequence of coffee being "unmade", through a bit of video maker magic - can't find it because I think it was just a throw-away sequence in the middle of a video and not the main topic. Maybe someone else will be able to point to it...
@@kevfquinn mightve been a short?
Where is my deconstructed Hydrogen & Oxygen water at?
As a chemist who deals with concentrations and dilutions every day I hadn’t considered how unintuitive the concepts are to most people - knowing from the start what the results/tests/justifications would be I can say this was an amazing process and explanation, and a super enjoyable watch :)
I’m not a chemist, or a scientist of any sort, but even I was surprised that anyone would ever have thought it would be the other way about - that a shorter espresso (albeit “stronger”) would produce a stronger milk drink. It seems obvious to me that more of the fluid with the extracted material in it would lead to more of a flavour of the extracted material…
@@shawzy620 Haha yeah I think it totally varies from person to person!! Especially with espresso where a stronger smaller espresso will actually taste stronger so it’s easy to see how one could skip over the dilution factor and just conclude that the end drink will also be stronger
@@shawzy620same. Though I would consider myself some sort of scientist but I have nothing to do with dilution or concentration of solubles but it’s pretty much common sense.
It was fun watching the explanation but so unnecessary. I’d consider it common sense which one is stronger.
If anything mentioning the less Espresso the more milk wouldve been enough explanation 😅
I initially made the assumption that the amount of milk added was constant and not the mass/volume of the final drink. Once I understood that the final drink was the constant it was fairly obvious
@@shawzy620 "It seems obvious to me that more of the fluid with the extracted material in it would lead to more of a flavour of the extracted material."
However, this is not correct. Or at least it is not what James demonstrated here. The reason for the weaker shot making the stronger drink is not that it uses more of the _flavoured fluid_ , but rather that it contains more of the _extracted material_ (because more of it has been extracted from the grounds)..
Even a very small amount of fluid can result in a stronger final drink as long as it contains more grams of extracted material then the alternative.
The only relevant factors for the final strength are (1) mass of extracted material and (2) volume of the final drink. Since the volume of the final drink is constant, only the mass of the extracted material remains as determining factor.
I would love a video testing how the alternative milks affect the taste of coffee. Oat vs Almond vs Soy vs Rice vs Coconut vs lactose free milk.
in my experience, lactose free milk typically tastes slightly sweeter.
i imagine diff milks would massively change taste.
Another taste test video!! ALL the versions of milk. Whole, 2%, skim, lactose free, oat, barista oat, unsweetened oat, soy, almond, rice, chocolate, give me them all!!
I prefer skim (cow) milk over whole milk, or any of the alternatives I have tried. Oat milk is probably second. but I don't like heavy, fatty foods either.
@@BleachedBlackSocks That's because lactose free milk is a lie! It still contains just as much lactose as regular milk, they just add the enzyme lactase which breaks it down into glucose and galactose. The glucose is what makes the milk taste sweeter
I agree! I’m a lactose free latte girl. I’ve also heard contradictory info on whether skimmed or full fat milk froths best
I have a cheap espresso machine that I can't get a scale under, so never measure my shots. Don't bother too much as I don't drink espresso anyway, only use it for making milk drinks when I fancy a change from filter coffee. 16g in is normal for me though, purely because that's what the double shot basket with the machine can take, so will try it with 14g for a fun experiment.
As an aside, I love that this channel doesn't publish videos on a schedule like so many on youtube. Makes videos feel much more natural and like a treat when they arrive.
from my experience in food-service for around 10 years, the biggest part of the battle is being comfortable with your equipment! You dont have to have the nest machines or equipment in the world to pull off something amazing, you just need to really get used to the equipment's ins-and-outs.
You could weigh your cup first or tare it and get the variance before and after pulling the shot.
@@jidduv I could, but given it's a DeLonghi machine I have no control over any of the other factors, so I tend not to bother. I'd be a lot more concerned, or would get a better machine, if I was an espresso drinker but I'm not.
@@cruachan1191 my delongi icona struggles with this so I take the drip tray out and wack a scale on slanted!
I also love the lack of scheduling! It flies in the face of common TH-cam algorithm wisdom, but for a channel of this quality it works as variable reinforcement. Like limited edition marketing. Brain goes brr when James uploads lol
Did not finish video.
Currently titrating a 1/10,000 diluted double shot for the most powerful possible homeopathy latte.
@@Will-Woll 🤣💧
i'm silently belly laughing so as not to wake the little ones who finally fell asleep before 10 pm
This is so on point. All this measuring to the gram kind of misses the point. It seems a whole cohort of coffee snobs are more concentrated on their little scale than they are on the coffee itself.
God lord you should be careful with that when it's finished! That'll be strong enough to knock a rhino out!!!
Homeopatic drinks! That opens up a completely new spectrum. Currently experimenting with one droplet of milk on my triple espresso.
10:19 is me whenever I see James posted a new video
Was looking anyone tagging to this moment
Saaame
hhaahahahh Perfect!!
I think I've finally realized why I find your channel so comforting. It's not just your voice, but the fact that you straight up sound like Winnie the Pooh talking about coffee, and I can't stop hoping that you might one day say "oh bother" 😂. And I mean this in the most complimentary way possible.
Incidentally, if you ended up creating a podcast where you talked about honey, that would be endgame.
Haha ❤
I think the comment of "add enough milk to fill the cup" is key.
I measure out my latte components before mixing them all together, so the milk volume is the same whether I use ristrettos or lungos. I feel like the coffee drives how long the shots go. If the coffee is stronger, I feel like the flavours pop out more to due the milk not being a variable.
However, the idea of moving to less coffee to get more of the coffee stuffs into the water is def an interesting concept to experiment with. This will def be something I play with. This will also undoubtedly lead me to determine if there's a limit to how long of a shot is too long.
Thank you, James!
Best,
-Luis
been over a decade since i experimented with all this but i think i'm right in saying, another variable is the longer the shot (without going too long - ie: ristretto or espresso) the more bitter flavours, so it will make the drink taste 'stronger' in that it will be slightly more bitter. is that correct?
Same exact thoughts. I like my drinks strong and thick, so my thinking has always been to minimize water in all components (I have tested limits with condensed/evaporated, 7% fat, and even distilled milks). But now the question stands, what quantity of coffee solid is worthwhile to pull before it's just a cup of dirty water? Isn't this just what the worst quality instant coffee manufacturers do anyway? This video has only raised more questions
@@i22321 In distilling they break the distillate into groups or "cuts". For example if you were hoping to make 1L, the first 100mL might be your heads. You'd toss this. Then take samples every 200mL or whatever until you start getting bad flavors at which point you stop and obviously don't add it to the pot of "good stuff".
This should be easy enough to do with espresso. Just get 6-8 shot glasses. We all know the first 30g are good. Then start collecting 5-8mL at a time into different glasses then try each one separately.
@@gordonbowe That's something people have done it's called a Salami shot. You sample the different parts of the extraction to get an idea of how it works.
@@BensCoffeeRants cool, I've never heard of that before but it was highly unlikely that there is anything left that nobody has tried, especially something so basic.
I don't always understand all the details when James nerds out. But it's a real pleasure to watch. Keep on nerding out about coffee!!
I don't always understand either, but I think I did with this one.
I don't do milk drinks, but I really enjoyed the deconstruction of the drinks, and the numerical breakdown
I've been pulling longer 1:2.2 shots for my milk drinks for awhile now and have always found these to be preferred over a ristretto style shot! Thanks for an awesome video!
4:03 "Uh, honey... why are you mixing the Instant Coffee we keep at the back for the cupboard 'cause we hate it, with ghee and water? I asked you if you could make a latte for me..."
"Hoffmann told me so.., uh, I think, anyways"
Have I encountered another Silpheed fan "in the wild"? Nice. It's a fun game with cool music.
@@nathangamble125 yep, although I'll admit the Sega cd version is superior (but way harder!) than the PC version! good 80s/90s memories!
I don't drink milk based coffees because I don't like the taste of steamed milk!
I want that TV show where you and Tim Wendelboe travel the world finding great coffee but base it on Withnail & I.
'We've made a latte by mistake'
Are you the barista?
Naw... James n Tim go house to house n do pimp my coffee set up.
"We want the finest pour-over available to humanity, we want it here and we want it now".
It's called a flat white because it's white and I made it in my flat.
"Deconstructed as it would be 10 years earlier so you can make it yourself maybe foam it yourself and you had a great time and then you'd complain about it....anyways" sounds like he had this exact experience serving someone 😂😂😂😂
r/oddlyspecific
What I love about British humor
@@bcvanwijk in Australia (and i'll assume UK after seeing this), it was all the rage to serve deconstructed everything. But, whether you were working in a restaurant or purchasing the product, we all eventually realized, we'd rather just have the expert make the drink for us....or having a deconstructed cheesecake was stupid because of obvious reasons.
So, after everyone got their IG pics out of the way, the complaining to ourselves, the staff, and our friends began
@@thefuturetom It was all the rage in the U.S. for a while. I have at various points in my life worked around fine dining, and even back then I used to make fun of the whole "deconstructed" craze such that every time I heard a chef say it, I would have rolled my eyes if I could, but I can't so...
@@jeffreypenkoff6178 Funnily enough Michael Spicer just did a video on foodies ruining food, and he does a gag about deconstructed food ("You just dropped it on the floor didn't you")
This makes so much of sense I could not understand why I preferred the double plus setting on my breville instead of a double shot for my milk drinks
Another simpler way to test how much flavour are your extracting:
grinding finer, 16g in, 32g out, add 68g water
grinding course, 16g in, 40g out, add 60g water
As you are adding water instead of milk, it's much easier to pick out the coffee flavour without being disturbed by the milk.
Like that idea i will try that cheers
So which one better? Don't wanna waste my Bean, sorry
@@tommysatrya4719
Quick answer:
Smallest possible dose (depends on portafilter)
Finest possible grind (without channeling)
Highest possible brew ratio (before it tastes bitter and hollow)
Real answer:
It depends.
This was one of the best videos you've made in a very long time! I love the idea of not wasting so much coffee, but actually getting more flavor by not wasting coffee!
I brewed up another K-cup just to watch this video.
James, I've never pulled an espresso shot, and I doubt I ever will. But keep making your videos; eventually I'll figure out what keeps me coming back.
Could not make a cappuchino look any more gorgeous. James is a king fr.
We primarily have milk drinks in my apartment, so I'm going to give this a try and see if I can tell a difference. If there's little to no difference you could easily get 3 more drinks out of a 12oz (340g) bag of coffee, which might not seem like a lot, but when you go through a bag every 2 weeks it can add up.
Problem is the headspace in your basket, if you are using less coffee. Shots start flowing badly if you just use less coffee and grind finer
At a time in the world where there’s so much happening that’s bad…..
Just watching The Hoff nerding out to the max, somehow makes things a tiny bit better
I have never felt so validated for an opinion i had never expressed to anyone before. i love this guy
Quick random comment from the perspective of latte art: I’ve personally always found it easier to pour a nice pattern with a shorter shot. Couldn’t exactly tell you why, but my assumptions include just an overall lower quantity of crema and hence less resistance against the flow of microfoam and more “room” to get a complicated pattern in the cup.
I'm a beginner. I've had an espresso machine for about a month now and with help from you and others, I think I'm getting pretty good espresso shots and Americanos. However, my experience with milk drinks is that the espresso just doesn't matter that much. As you said, the milk seems to be a really strong buffer and your taste test seems to support that. I need more practice, though. My "foam" is about half warm milk, half actual foam, so maybe I should get that sorted before getting too opinionated.
I have using 18g beans 36g out and 20g beans 40g out over the last few week with 100g of soya milk . Then 18g beans 40g out 100g milk . The last combo gave me a slightly more sweeter and fuller mouth feel , for some reason the coffee shot tastes more intense and flavourful . So I will now try 16g beans , 40g out , with 92g milk and see what that tastes like . Great informative video yet again James cheers .
I make milk drinks with cream only (sometimes I call it a Fat White). I prefer a shorter extraction when using cheap/aged dark roasts.
If you are being serious, mind commenting on how you froth the cream? I've tried (with 40% fat-by-volume milk), with... disappointing results 🙈
@@anderss867 The cream we have where I am is aprox 37% fat by volume, 2% protien. If you're using a steam wand (like on an espresso machine) its really hard to damage the structure compared to milk and you can just blast it on an angle to get it moving around the pitcher until it's foamy and at temperature, you also want to draw in a lot of air with the wand. It can take a long time if you treat it gently like milk. Otherwise using a small electric wisk you just get it moving around your vessel until foamy. It's is cream after all and will whip, I think drawing air in during the process is the most important part.
Cream doesn't have the protein content of milk so its stability for latte art might be worse. When you steam/froth milk you create longer protein structures or links that hold together a little bit. I personally pull espresso directly into preheated/foamed/steamed cream. The fat content in the cream stops a lot of the volatile oils in the coffee from becoming as bitter and it captures more of a ristretto like flavour IMO. I used to measure but now I eyeball aprox 100ml of cream to a doubleshot (aprox 60ml). Also FWIW I eat a ketogenic diet so my body likely tolerates the high fat content better than others.
Also another fun thing is to watch the fat of the cream absorb the coffee as you pull into it. Use a glass and you can watch your drink mix itself.
As someone who works with concentrations and dilutions daily, I never realized how tricky these concepts can be for others. This was an amazing explanation and super fun to watch! 😊
I've been making lattes at home daily for 10+ years, and home roasting my beans for ~7 years. I use a low range burr grinder and don't weigh my beans - just use 'a handful' (horror, I know! Though after your "Average Espresso" video, out of curiosity I weighed my portafilter for a week and was at a consistent 18-19 grams - so my process is very dialed in). My shots weight a whopping 50-52 grams - so a pretty "weak" shot, but oh man, my lattes are so good, and better than most coffee shops I go to. I always had a sense that my longer shots contributed to more flavor - this is such confirmation for me!
Hi,
I home roast too.
What do you roast on?
I use a metal cube drum over a gas camping stove. Approximately 200g batches in and finish around 170g roasted.
I can't be bothered adjusting the grinder length between changing types of coffee - I just count from anywhere 8 - 12 in my head, and adjust next time if needed. Similar to your 'handful'
@@kg-Whatthehelliseventhat Just a metal cowboy popcorn popper (temp gauge added) over a gas stove burner with 228g (1/2 lb) batches. I tend to pull midway through first crack (I'd call City Minus (not a real term) or light roast) through the calm between cracks (I'd call City+ or medium).
@@MikePouchcool man, keep it up it is a great thing to do. Take it easy 😊😊
I really appreciate this test. It confirms the way I’ve been doing it for years now. I am a morning latte guy with whole milk. I always pull a longer shot for my milk drinks as they just taste better. The flavor is more well rounded and it better balances the sour/sweet/bitter notes. Thanks!!
This is SO cool that you’re making a video on Milk drinks. Everybody needs to get representation!!
James, I really enjoyed the video. However, there’s something to consider regarding the final concentration of a latte made with a 40g longer shot. Let me break it down with some calculations:
TDS of a 32g ristretto shot: 10.8% → Solubles: 3.456g, Water: 28.544g
TDS of a 40g longer espresso shot: 9.2% → Solubles: 3.68g, Water: 36.32g
Assuming 90% water content in the milk:
Water in the ristretto latte: 90g
Water in the longer shot latte: 82.8g
As a result, the total water content in the ristretto latte is 118.544g,
while it’s 119.12g in the longer shot latte.
This means the latte made with the longer shot contains more water, which can lead to a more pronounced ‘watery’ taste in the final drink.
Baristas often prioritize not only the richness of the espresso’s aroma but also achieving a harmonious balance with milk. While a longer extraction may yield more solubles, the weaker components and increased water content in the later stages can disrupt the overall balance, making the latte taste more diluted.
You could have absolutely ended the video at 1:10, and I'd still be confident in your advice.
Not sure if it is just me, but you are going really fast. I like the usual and not over caffeniated James. In fact, I really like the usual James. He is terrific.
5:34 Dunno about anyone else, but I always use the same amount of cold milk at the start of brewing a milk drink, so I wouldn't get much weight variations. This also means, pulling stronger shots does make a stronger coffee for me as I'm not adding more milk to compensate, the milk amount is pretty much always the same.
I don't weight my milk, but do measure it. Still, I think Hoffman's point is more about the variances in steaming. Since we're generally chasing the volume of a full cup, the aeration will have a bigger effect. Unless you always know that the residual milk left in the cup is exactly the same...
@@_mball_ oh actually one thing I didn't consider is nowadays I tend to use one of the standalone milk frothers you get for pod machines as I can let that run while I prep my coffee. So if a person was using a steam wand it would likely cause variations because the steaming would add water to the milk.
Since I just purchased a manual espresso maker, I have dived down the coffee snob rabbit hole! I was religiously going for 16 grams of beans and 32 ounce shot. I use whole milk, and I love the interplay of the slightly bitter espresso agains the sweet milk. One day it was perfect even though I accidentally pulled a longer shot, and now I know why. I’m going to experiment more with less beans and longer shots. I like how James validates our individual tastes and ways of making coffee. I don’t have to do what others do, I can do it the way I like it. Thanks!
4:54 You demonstrate that the longer shot is 0.08% (stronger or roughly 3% more dried coffee material thus its more strong.
Then at 5.20 you disregard that the longer shot has 0.3g or 10% LESS milk solids and go on to dismiss any other differences in the protein or solids makeup between the two.
If you disregard the differences in milk concentration and argue that there is too much variability in the preparation method from day to day - then the scant 3% in strength of coffee can be argued to the same and you are dreaming if you believe the coffee is stronger. If you enjoy more milk, then the shorter shot produces the better drink because the milk is stronger!
The summary could also be: use more domestic coffee with the shorter shot. You will save money - because leaving 3% extractable material behind is not justified for the 20% premium on coffee that tastes good as espresso.
you'd save even more money by not adding or using any milk :)
I thought the same thing, the implication here is that milk solids contributes less to the overall taste than coffee, which I think is right. If you really like the taste of milk, I guess you could use powdered milk or other concentrates to enhance the flavor. It you are after milk fats, add cream, this will do a lot more than reducing the already small proportion of coffee. Alternatively, if you care more about the milk than coffee, use instant coffee in your milk.
You are confusing percentages with percentage points
Never been into coffee. I found this channel in August '24. It's now November '24 and I've already spent a fortune on coffee tools/machines
Welcome to the slippery slope 🤣
I used to drive a Porsche. Now I drive a Peugeot but have 2 coffee machines, multiple water filters and a map of all the best roasters in my area...as far as I'm aware there isn't a coffee equivalent of Alcoholics Anonymous!
James Hoffman: "ok that's it." [ *deconstructs your cappuccino* ]
Decap
James was extra sassy this filming day and I’m loving it. 😂
One of the crew asked to finish the test drinks.
No! *hand slap" My coffee!
16g or 14g in a store environment could equal substantial savings over a year.
and then you use the savings to buy alcohol, getting you something strong, smart
@@Lingon_ So what I'm hearing is that to make stronger milk drinks, you replace 2g of brewed espresso with everclear.
@@somefreshbread replace the water with everclear
@@somefreshbread ofc
Right, but you would need either a dedicated grinder or one that is extremely accurate and can output by weight very precisely AND you would need a grouphead and timing dedicated to milk drinks as well. So, if you are doing really high volume, sure. Or, prioritize milk drinks and let the straight espresso drinkers take back seat quality wise.
I upgraded my Breville Smart Grinder Pro to a Macap Leo 55 over a week ago. I use a Rocket Giotto with IMS Sanremo basket.
I am right in the middle of working towards the delicious Flat White recipe.
Delicious means better than great. A slam on the kitchen bench reaction with full of emotions. It had happened a few times before.
I dose my coffee grounds 19.5g in for many years and moved to 19.0g in since 2024.
I also realised I had not checked the espresso weight out until a few weeks ago, and I needed to pull my socks up.
I got stuck last week and decided to wait until I got time to ask for help.
So this TH-cam came in the perfect timing as it provided me with some VERY clear direction to work with.
So I will trial by lowering the dose starting from 18g, and work my way down.
Will also look into how much less milk I will need as well.
This has been great, and I hope I won't end up using a Lungo base and think it’s delicious.
My family makes the worst thing: instant Coffee in hot milk.
And I love it.
That actually sounds good!😂
It actually does taste so good though
I have tried instant coffee with cold milk and sugar. It's good, but I don't have it very often.
If you have to make something at work with usual work materials put a couple of tsp of instant in a mug of milk and microwave until drinkable but not boiling,stir and add sugar if you need....better than traditional instant coffee....
I used to make a coffee "smoothie" with 2% milk, tsp coffee, tsp sugar, 3 tbsp coffee ice cream, and honey. Blend and enjoy. Then Walmart got rid of the coffee ice cream. My life is empty now.
Love this! Glad to see something applicable to home brewing. Feels like it's been a while.
Didn't even know there was a debate about this. I like my espressos around 1:2, but prefer to go 1:3 for milk drinks. As I drink equal amounts of both, I usually have everything dialed in at 1:2.5 as a compromise. I would waste too much coffee by repeatedly tweaking my grind size otherwise.
I’m very new to this and haven’t even bought a machine yet (will probably get a Breville express impress), but if you have say a single and double shot option, could you program one at 1:3 and the other at 1:2? I note that the Breville a come standard at about 1:3 I think. I usually drink milk drinks only, but I was going to try get into espressos just because during all my research I see so many people enjoy them and I want to give it a ‘shot’.
@@rover1374 You'd still have to dial in your coffee with your grinder for two different types of shots since timing might be different although you can probably get away with just letting a shot run a bit longer or shorter. I found as long as the shot doesn't run super fast you can still get good results, longer running shots seem fine to me you just have a higher risk of channeling when you're grinding too fine. So if your getting 28 second shots that are 1:2, Letting it run to 35 seconds and getting 1:3 is probably going to taste good too.
@@BensCoffeeRants good points, thanks. I’m now trying neg to work out which machine to get! All this for a guy who drinks milk coffees with equal…
@rover1374 milks fine but stay away from that toxic artificial sweetener stuff!
We will keep tuning and adjusting all of our customers espresso machines to exactly how they want their espresso pulls. This video was a great video that reminded us to tune the espresso machine to do exactly what the chef, customers, and baristas want the espresso concentration to be to create their drinks. Great education, James.
I've always been using 12g in my Flair machine. I think it works better balanced milk drinks than most Starbucks ones. Increasing the coffee will overpower the milk, and at 18g I might as well use evaporated milk.
I brew with 16.0 grams for many years. single Espresso. 1 Cappuccino. 2 Cappuccini. Whenever I make two at the same time, I basically go for a ratio of 1:4. 16g in, 64g out (for 2 cups) Saves time, coffee and tastes just fine.
I really love the nerdy breakdown, really highlights how little is involved. Rather impressed u picked out the difference in the taste 😂
Perfect timing, just made dinner!
I love all of your videos, and I know it's impossible to please everyone: my vote is to hear you slurp - because I don't mind the sound, and it feels like I'm more a part of the process with you, tasting the drinks you have in front of you. I'vee gotten used to the slurps from your earlier videos, so it feels weird not hearing them, like my brain knows something's missing. Thanks for all you do, you're the best. 💜
I’ve found shorter shots make sweeter tasting milk drinks with less bitterness. Probably a difference between lighter roasts and more conventional espresso roasts.
I've found the same thing. Also using (ultra) light roasts for milk drinks.
yeah less coffee and more milk is going to taste more like milk and less like coffee. that's the entire point of the video
@@bL4KcfYREz There’s a small difference: James points out that short shots tend to the sour side in the video. That sour flavor (in my opinion) is far more preferable to the bitter compounds that tend to show up later in the shot with longer ratios, which aren’t masked nearly as much by the milk. It’s not about how much milk you have. You can try the same thing by pulling a shorter shot and using less milk, versus pulling a longer shot and using more milk. They don’t always taste the same (though in this case in the comparison James performed in the video, he couldn’t tell much difference).
No, James point is which one make stronger, not delicious or sweetness... So he still valid. Just like you i enjoy shorter shot that make it sweet and light for milk beverage
Just barely started building my setup but LOVE how much I could already learn from all your videos and now this one
This makes me feel so validated. I have a cappuccino every day and I have always has a better tasting cup at 18g in 40g out.
So similar to me
Always abbreviate your shots for a capp. The Sterling Standard!
Better tasting cup than what? If that's all you have every day, you're not comparing it to anything.
@@remnant24He's comparing it to different outputs
absolutely I tend to prefer 18g in and 45g out. With the beans I typically have been using that is about when the chocolate taste come out.
First, thanks for not hearing milk drink enthusiasts. I use a Olympia lever machine at 15g. I’ll try adjusting and report back. Love you channel!
James my coffee lord.
Great video! Been making flat whites from my Flair Signature for the last year with shots at a 2.5 or even 3:1 ratio (about 14g in, 35-40g out), and I love it. Glad to see James back me up :)
I've been pulling 16g/17g shots yielding 38/40 grams for over a year on my La Spaziale S2. Not one customer ever complained about the taste of the coffee. From Flat Whites to Lattes and even espresso's. I used high quality specialty coffee beans from a local roaster. Everyone agreed their drinks were very smooth tasting and full bodied.
P.s. I'm really gutted you didn't slurp James 😅😂
Interesting! I'll have to try less coffee for my once a day milk drink in the morning.
I already brew spro-overs using 15g of coffee to make 250g of black coffee - and I do love that!
!! James!!! Make a video of you doing a coffee enema with all different coffee drinks. Thanks
Loved this video. I’ve always defaulted to the 18g to 32g shot for espresso in milk drinks. I can’t wait to get back home and start experimenting with the longer 16g shot.
3:29 "This is the truly deconstructed cappuccino"
*LHC has entered the chat*
Absolutly! I will try a longer weaker espresso for milk drinks. Thanks for the video! Keep up the good work!
I've been finding myself enjoying 1:1 shots of 18g in milk drinks. I don't bother making up for the strength at all. I find it brings out a lot of the subtle flavors and it's fun to compare two lattes made side by side. I'm personally way better at picking apart flavors in a latte than a pourover and I don't find the coffee flavors to be lost in the milk at all. There was a white honey gesha I was using recently that comes across almost like earl grey.
I've compared 1:1 vs 1:2, and every time I've strongly preferred 1:1 shots. I've also preferred 1:1 18g shots over 1:2 7g shots.
I tried pulling a longer shot with everything dialed in the same and it massively increased the coffee flavor from my latte this morning. I'd been using less milk for that effect but then I'm left with less latte overall. This is very helpful cause i love milk drinks and always felt like I had to sacrifice volume for flavor but now I have more to enjoy thanks James!!
I worked at a famous coffee chain 20 years ago. I was at the store during the time of transition from the La Morozocco manual espresso machine to a fully automatic machine which would grind, tamp, and pour at the press of a button.
Customers found the new drinks to be less flavorful, they found them to be weak. Now the old manual shot standard was between 18-21 seconds, and the new automatic was calibrated for about a 14 second shot. I reasoned that part of the difference for the flavor might be the bitterness from oxidization in the shot. When pulling manual shots you first pull some ground coffee, which falls through the air into your portafilter, then you tamp, then you pull an 18-21 second shot. You can see the heart of the shot growing beneath the crema as the shot sits in the shot glass pouring.
The automatic shots are ground inside the machine, tamped immediately, and then the shot is 14 seconds long. The heart of the shot is a very thin line at the bottom of the shot glass when the shot is finished, giving you a shot that is almost entirely crema, very light, very creamy, not very bitter.
So I let the automatic shots sit for a short time oxidizing. In my workflow I poured shots earlier in the drink making process so that the shots could sit in the shot glass slowly growing the heart as waves of oxidized coffee dropped through the crema collecting at the bottom. Customers claimed they could taste the difference and said they were stronger when I prepared them that way. I reasoned that the bitterness signal is creating a subjective experience of greater coffee strength. My spouse who didn't enjoy coffee at the time could drink those 14 second shots with almost no heart. I would pour the shots directly into a small amount of cold water so the shot could be consumed immediately, before oxidizing. They tasted very creamy, barely any bitterness.
woww, haven't been on your channel for a long time, first video in a while and it's a banger. i've never thought about it as i'm not a milk drink enjoyer but definitely a bargain for me as i often makes milk drinks for my family
I think James here is missing the concept of ristretto.
Ristretto is not just the shorter version of espresso, with same grind size and just quicker shot time and shorter yield. If that so, then ristretto is just the strong-and-under extracted version of espresso.
Ristretto is like well-extracted espresso with shorter yield, resulting in higher TDS. That means, ristretto needs finer grind size.
Caffeine : control of daily caffeine intake, 3 cups of cappuccino a day : what has worked for me : (not necessarily a recommendation) : 11gr in, of dark roasted beans, slightly coarsely ground, in a PRESSURIZED 2-shot basket, puck screen on top : 2" pre-infusion : 40gr out, full flavour bitter but nice espresso : diluted by 70gr of full fat steamed milk (goat milk when cow milk intolerance). Sugar to taste. Total 33gr coffee bean intake : approx. 200 milligrams caffeine intake. Approx. 1/2 the recommended adult max. Easy, flavourful & healthy.
I pull a *much* longer shot for lattes/cappuccino/etc, typically 4x (ie 18g -> 72ml).
Good coffee makes a big difference imho; lighter roasts and floral flavors are my favorite in lattes.
I've always done the opposite! Abbreviate your shot for a capp and do a taste test. The perfect capp is achievable!
@christophertstone that's a lungo shot, based on this video I imagine you're getting an even stronger drink based on the lower amount of milk compared to a typical espresso shot
Yayyy! A milk drink video!! I've been making my "cappuccinos" with James' aeropress milk drink recipe but found this video very interesting. I will use this knowledge once I've saved up for a flair neo :)
The double ristretto will have better mouthfeel and imo that tradeoff has been worth the marginal decrease on extraction. I used to make all my drinks with the standard 18 in 36 out in 30s, but switched it to 18in and 28out and I like that way better, but I agree with the premise of the video in which longer shots will have more flavor,mits just that the mouth feel makes a way bigger difference.
OMG!! I didn't know you wrote a book on how to make great coffee!! Just ordered it on amazon- can't wait!
So many thoughts....the biggest overarching issue with JH conclusions (respect) is the light roast espresso bias, which most people don't drink (even in specialty circles) ESPECIALLY in milk drinks. I do both, but for a cafe, darker coffee in the cappuccino or larger drink is best. I like 18g in 27g out in 30 seconds. That's 1:1.5. For a medium-dark roast, that is perfect to me. Some even do 1:1.25. If I'm splitting shots to share, I stretch to 1:2. That ratio and using a little darker coffee cuts through milk better and tastes balanced (sour cappuccino is no good). I regulate perceived strength further by either using less milk or by adding another shot (if I'm down for the caffeine that day). For a longer shot, I prefer pulling it tighter and diluting with water after to avoid over extraction. You could dial in for the longer shot too, but this allows me to not have to make changes all the time (also a good hack for cafes when one customer asks for a "longo" since just running it longer without changing the grind will result in a bitter shot). In that case, that's usually how I drink it without milk. Always interesting hearing this content and I'm excited to keep learning.
The light roast bias is real. There are barely any TH-cam espresso channels that do not have a huge light roast bias. They keep making content about “coffee science”, preparation and give tips based on their liking of light roast espresso which unfortunately does not always translate to better coffee for the majority of people (especially newbies) who drink medium/dark roast.
I have zero idea of what James is on about but Im here for it non the less
I just can't believe that this much detail is required for people to understand/believe that if the ratio of coffee to milk is higher, the drink tastes stronger.
Appreciate you always looking out for us coffee enthusiasts James.
I love how James still continues to make these enlightening videos for everyone even though the channel's main audience would probably know all of this already.
I feel like his videos are more for home baristas rather than professionals. Still fun videos though!
This will change the way I make my coffee tomorrow morning. This has been a wonderful eye opener
I surprisingly missed the slurps. i will have to watch a compilation of slurps to make up for it
I suspect a popular opinion: I do NOT love the slurps
Great validation! I stumbled upon this many months ago discovering my 40g shots produced better milk drinks than 32g shots (based off of 16g of coffee). I thought i was doing something wrong since I could not produce a better drink at 32g. Thanks for sharing the science behind this!
I beat the bot by accident
What a great video! Thank you so much for taking the time to do this! I’d be interested to compare a dark roasted coffee versus a light to medium coffee with The 16 g and longer pull.
what if i aint got milk
i usually mix a little cornstarch in 90 degree celsius distilled water and its ok with moka pot
Then go buy some milk
use another bodily fluid i guess
@@BleachedBlackSocks Men can produce milk too, if you rub and squeeze enough.
Factually correct comment, yet also somehow I've lowered the tone more than you already did. Like Liam Neeson, I have a very particular set of skills...
After trying several methods, I narrowed it down to two methods (1) moka pot (2) french press which seems to extract everything out of the grounds. I use half n half for the dairy and sweeten it with a touch of maple syrup. It just worked! I followed Jame's process for both and now work on muscle memory in the morning to make the best coffee!
I never pull shorter shots to make a stronger milk drink, but you've definitely made me interested in trying it! I'll give a 14-16g dose of coffee to a 42g espresso a try in a milk drink larger than a cortado and see how it turns out. I'll be sure to go back in a few days and share my experience
I get my coffee from Coffeevine, so a box of 3 different packs of beans from across Europe. They pack in a small magazine giving background on the roaster, but, importantly, include the recommended recipe for both filter and espresso from the roaster. I usually just follow that, and so far it hasn't been a miss. Rarely do I have to change something, the recommendations are usually spot on for a normal espresso (with or without milk).
For the past couple years, I've always done an 18g/36g shot for my milk drink in the morning. Hadn't really thought about trying something different until this video. This entire week so far I've been doing 16g/40g and have surprisingly enjoyed it more. Haven't missed the 18g shots. I won't be going back to 18g. Thanks for the video!
I always noticed having stronger tasting coffee, when pulling longer shots. I assumed this was caused by having extracted more bitter substances due to the longer extraction time, but James' explanation makes total sense. Thank you very much for clarifying! :-)
In Melbourne we have a drink called the magic, which plays off the idea of coffee strength: milk ratio. A double ristretto with textured milk, but in 5oz cup instead of 6oz. Not a drink I'd be bothered to make everyday, but certainly worth a try.
Fantastic video James! Thanks! What you showed here only tells me that the main focus still is to make the best espresso I can. And then add milk if someone prefers to have it this way. Nothing changed here. Cheers!
I heard about this video before i watched it (now) so i started a little experiment for a week pulling shots with 15g (36-40g out, i eyeball it, sue me). I exclusively drink cappuccinos and this is saving me up to 25% on my beans, it's been great! Drinks have been smoother all around with less icky notes. It does feel weird tamping so far into the basket every time though. Great stuff, thanks hoffmaestro.
Neat. I normally use milk and his nicely explains why I find it less enjoyable when people who say I make my coffee a little weak make stronger coffee with my tin of coffee even though I use good quality coffee and they buy the cheap stuff
Hi James, I made a formula for this like 10 years ago jokingly called the Wilson number. You basically put in your parameters, TDS, yield, mass of milk, and it spits out a number (adjusted to occupy a sensible range) that is meaningless until compared to that of other drinks. The higher the Wilson Number, the stronger. It had what I think I called a water correction factor, which was to take into account the impact of longer shots diluting the drink more. The exercise was a bit of fun for a mathsy person working in coffee and was used a bit to standardise drink strengths across sizes and recipes in different cafes using our coffee. In other words, I would set a desire Wilson Number and reverse engineer the recipe (using assumed values for optimal extraction yield, dose, etc). In reality it was completely useless.
Except that it made me realise that the ideal latte would constitute ONLY coffee solids and milk (with its normal amount of water). Coffee dust with milk. Made me think differently about what I was aiming for with milkies.
It also had to do with lowering wastage and costs. We switched to EKs for blend to be able to increase extraction and use less coffee.
Ok I keep editing this as new thoughts come. Best thing to do is obviously grind the coffee as fine as humanly possible tomaximise SA:V, sieve to an extreme degree to maximise uniformity and mitigate unevenness, brew the coffee with heat and pressure, reduce the resulting 'espresso' until it's like syrup, then add hot milk. Not great for workflow, but workflow is fucked these days anyway.
Practically speaking, this wouldn't work at all. There'd be no flow and it would channel too much.
I will definitely change my routine now. Math never lies and saving are always good.
This was super cool, I love the nerdy coffee stuff that you get down to here.
This will 100% change how I pull a shot of espresso for milk drinks. The legend has spoken. 15g in instead of my default 18g in and lungo it is. Thank you James!
This makes so much sense. I've always been reluctant to make milk drinks from coffees that I tend to pull close to 1:3. I have to consider changing my ways.
This is useful to me, thank you. I have an espresso machine for the first time in ages, am a milk drink fan and was wondering about exactly this question!
There are many types of ristretto style shots at various volumes. i think ultimately what ratio is preferable entirely depends on the coffee and more importantly how the coffee was roasted. darker roasts taste less harsh at lower extractions