The Hidden Costs of CNC's!
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 20 พ.ค. 2023
- CNC's cost a lot of money. But what about the hidden costs associated with buying them? There are a lot of other costs you need to factor in when buying a CNC and I go over those in this video!
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#cnc #woodworking #smallbusiness - แนวปฏิบัติและการใช้ชีวิต
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Excellent video, bro. I thought when I spent ninety grand on my large format CNC that it would come with everything necessary other than bits. OMG, talk about naive!
First of all, my machine weighs over 9,000 pounds, so I was advised to replace a large section of the shop floor with six inch reinforced concrete...four grand.
The 230v three phase wiring required cost almost five grand. The onboard tool changer holds twelve tools and with collets and holders, cost a grand to populate, excluding the carbide bits.
The dedicated compressor and electronic air dryer added another four grand, plus another grand for larger air distribution.
My original dust collection system was instantly overwhelmed and cost seven grand to upgrade.
So, at the end of the day, what I thought was going to be $90,000 ended up being $112,000... and that's still doesn't include any bits. I probably have three grand in bits alone and, yes, they are a consumable.
That said, my system paid for itself within the first year of use. I am able to cut and assemble twenty cabinets in a single day in a one-man shop, with an average UV1 4x8 sheet yield of 95% and an accuracy factor that is off the chart.
A very expensive but totally sound investment in my case.
Big purchases require big peripheral purchases for sure. It's well worth it though. Makes the business more efficient.
Thanks for the FACTS!
@@tommyp1494 You can do it man. Go for it and work hard.
1 year ago I received a new doosan lynx. Y axis. Bar feeder ,live tools. 150k . I bought my first Haas mill for 8k . It's my philosophy that, mini machines should not exceed 2500 USD.
@@wannabecarguy"I received a Doosan".....like in Santa received or bought it ?
Great video!
I’m in CNC machining 14 years now. Used to run 12m bed mills with 9 axes and tools so ridiculous expensive…
I think you grow with your preferences as customers etc.
I’m starting slow, but really great to know about the costs I’ve never thought about.
Thanks for the lesson mate!
I’ll use it 👍
Thanks for watching!
Mike, this is fantastic information that isn't really talked about! We all needed the video and you stepped up and knocked it out of the park. Well done Sir! You gave me a ton of insight for me to prepare for whenever the time comes for me to dive into a large CNC machine like yours. Even though these hidden costs means more money for operation, this certainly makes me more confident when it's time to buy. Thanks Dude! Keep it up!
I couldn't be happier that it helped! Makes me happy man. Thank you!
woodworking tools manufacturer can supply better price and quality to our friends.🎉🎉
It's true. I took out a $25k loan when buying a "desktop" CNC router (30"x40") that was advertised as costing $6,495! I added options like an HSD spindle, phenolic top, vacuum pump, T- slots, etc, for a grand total of just over $14k. Then add $5k for electrical upgrades, $5k for a good dust collector (NOT harbor freight!), and my money was all gone! And soon after I discovered how inadequate VCarve Pro is, so I embarked on the odyssey of finding a good CAM solution. Total cost is all of my money! I'm using it to make tooling for a product I hope to launch soon. And while I haven't made a penny off of it yet, the cost of having someone else do all of the machining for me would cost much more than what I paid for the router. So I'm calling it a win.
Gotta spend money to make money
That’s crazy, $25k for a desktop CNC! I spent a total of $60k for a full 4x8 CNC and an edge bander which included a vacuum pump, and a large dust collector
@@maxwellrucker7186 LOL! I guess you didn't read past the first 8 words? It was $14k for router w/ spindle, vacuume table, etc. I am well aware that cheaper routers exist, but you get what you pay for.
I have equipment 5k Cad. Making 30k per year
What software did you decide on
Great video Mike. Certainly a lot to consider before going down that route, even for a hobbyists set up
Absolutely. There are a lot of costs. And I'll be the first to say that if you have a woodworking business you really can't be competitive without a cnc.
Awesome video as Always Mike. Always appreciate hearing what you think and all your tips and tricks.
Thank you sir!
Great video. I've saved this in my CNC folder so I can watch it when I finish my AVID CNC build that's been on hold for a year due to Solar electrical install damages causing shorts for almost a year. Once I get my wife's chicken coop and run built I can get back into building my CNC/workshop in the garage.....
Wow what a headache! Sorry to hear that!
*I work as a machine shop mechanic.* I've had several hobbyists asking me advice, stating that they had seen videos of vacuum hold down, so they were planning to do that.
I explained what that actually entails. It's great, but not for tiny pieces and not for cheap. I'd say minimum of about $5,000 - which is more than any of the hobbyists asking were planning to pay for their entire setup, cnc machine included. That's initial purchase, not including power or ongoing costs.
Similarly but *even more extreme on the ongoing costs would be a waterjet.* Ours runs usually at 55,000psi. Every part is thick SS and every part is a wearing part with a definite fail life.
Because every connection has to be machined in SS to a particular angle and smooth so it seals 55,000psi, that means even *the most simple straight 6" high pressure tube is $150.* There are 19 high pressure lines and 5 of those have 1 or more bends.
The high pressure swivels are $850-1200ea. There are 6 of those.
The diamond orifice that makes the cutting beam is $1,200 and, in addition to being a wearing part, can sometimes crack and fail prematurely.
We are just below the incoming water temperature limit, where we would need to buy chiller for incoming water.
Despite having a solids removal system, every once in a while, the tank will get too stanky, and we will have a septic service suck all the muck out, then they fill 3-5 apple bins full of the waste muck, but now also contaminated with 'leftovers' from the septic truck tank. That's our problem to deal with.
And that machine is the most needy machine in our shop. We _expect_ to work on it 1-2 times a week, and there is no promise that it won't need more than that at any particular time.
*Haas machines **_seem_** cheap, but their gotcha is expensive parts with proprietary labels to keep you trapped to their service.* Let's say you buy a machine for $30-60k... and *have to pay $800 every 2-3 years for them to **_solder_** new batteries onto the board - or the machine software corrupts* and you still have to pay that but also for half a day of a tech reprograming a machine.
That's right. Cheap desktop computers 10years old and cheap $150 cell phones are fine when they run out of battery, but the manufacturer of your expensive machine that your livelihood depends on *cheaped out and didn't spend $30 on a micro SSD so it could survive a battery loss unharmed.* That should give you a good idea of hidden costs on 'bargain' industrial machines.
Yeah good tools cost money.
Great video Mike. All great points and highlights on the hidden costs. One big cost or loss is time. Between set up and education a lot of time goes into setting these things up. the opportunity costs can be through the roof.
I have hobbiest sized cnc. Company called openbuilds. Seemed like the right decision for me at the time. Till I found out after it came that i had to put every single piece together. Every screw nut plate etc. I lost about a week of work just assembling not including learning how to use a cnc building the table running electric or dust collection.
Love watching your growth brother and can’t wait to see what you have in store for the future.
Those "you put together" cnc's freak me out!
thanks for taking your time to speak about ALL the costs.
Thanks for taking the time to watch it!
We’ve been throwing the idea of adding a cnc to our woodworking shop at our boss, he’s hesitant. If we showed him this video, his hesitancy would quickly turn into “screw that noise!” 😂
Tell your boss my first CNC paid itself off in 4 months. This one is 4 times more expensive and will do it in 6.
Been running a 3-axis Biesse Rover and a SCM 5-axis CNC for some time, and even maintenance is also a cost to factor in depending on how frequent they run. I've seen people not greasing their machines and later down the line, it ends up being a pricey fix because something gives out! I like your video and your shop looks cool!
Thanks man! Fortunately this machine auto self lubricates
@@CoffeyCustomBuilds depending on the machine, the auto lubrication covers only a part of the lubrication, not everything. Usually, it's the spindle, ways and, ball screws.
Some things (especially with those bigger machines like Biesse or SCM) need also periodical greasing on top of the auto lubrication. And you also need to check, that the auto lubrication works. I worked with maintaining some metal CNC machines many years ago, and have learned that anything with a sensor can fail.
Excellent information, very concisely presented! Thank you.
Really happy to hear it was helpful!
This is great info. Thanks for sharing your knowledge with us.
Happy to help.
Thanks for sharing. I really enjoyed it. A lot of great information.
Thank you for watching!
I literally going through this exact same build with the 5x10 version of the SUV, wow it adds up quick! Best of luck to you with your investment!
You as well!
Thank you! I was just working to identify and cost out all the necessary “extras” and it was turning into a headache project.
That's why I made this!
Great info here. Bookmarking for future growth! :) Thanks for putting this together.
I'm glad it helps!
Thanks for sharing. I really resonate with your points and you have helped remind me about all the hidden costs! I bought my first basic 4x8 a year back as well without ATC, proper dust shoe, etc, and I'm already gearing up to invest in more features!
One thing though, my current machine does have a vacuum bed, and i'm wondering - when you mentioned that those perforated vacuum holes perform much better than having to pull air through MDF, what happens if your tool starts eating into the black laminate you have there? Unless your Z-zero has always been perfectly dialed in?
Again, thanks a whole bunch! It's a great reminder about all the thousands of $$$ (or tens of thousands of MYR here in Malaysia) due to hidden costs!
So the gasket is a consumable like the spoil board. However, we have been able to get a really solid zero and we have gone through about 200 sheets and it's still more than viable.
I've been running my DIY router for almost 20 years profitably and there's no need for vacuum or ATC. In some instances a vacuum hold down would be better but the profit margins are so hard you better be in aerospace to justify it. When I worked in aerospace routers, we used a rod to hold down parts regardless of vacuum because of vibrations. I use clamps and do not have to maintain any pumps or motors or clean out any hoses. Run it like a CNC mill.
I appreciate videos talking about cost. So many makers on TH-cam are just like it’s super easy. You just buy this machine with your trust fund money. Who cares what it costs.
It's important information to share! Thanks for watching.
@judelarkin2883 : This is far more important when it is not for hobby use. Equally as significant as information about costs is getting some idea about the level of increase in throughput and income. Without it, you cannot get a clear picture of how worthwhile the upgrades might be.
Additionally, CNC is not for everybody... there are many skilled craftsmen who would cringe at the idea of spending their day in front of a CAD/CAM screen while gritting their teeth at the sound of a 25,000 rpm cutter in hardwood. We all have our own agenda. 😜
@@PiefacePete46 yeah I don't want to do it. I am very proficient on my CNC's but it's a means to an end. I have employees for that.
Careful where you locate the air drier. There is a maximum ambient air temp rating if it's going to be in a machine shed with other heat sources. Also if it's in unconditioned space in a cold climate you could freeze the moisture as the refrigeration system condenses it. Yet another hidden cost. Great and informative video. Cool equipment.
Its in the shop
Great video. Love your no nonsense approach and tell it it how it is.
Gotta get straight to it.
Great video man. I just bought a CNC. Do you hard wire the CNC for the power cable or there is a plug like the stove?
Thanks
Definitely hardware anything over 20amps.
Now that was some straight talk, thank you.
Thanks for watching
Very cool! Keep in mind that moving the vacuum pump outside the room will put your shop under vacuum. Makeup air will come in from wherever it can affecting the conditioned space.
Very good point. However the air coming in is far cooler than the air it's putting out. So in the winter we will repipie the hot air back in.
@Coffey Custom Builds nice! My dust collector piped outside affected my water heater. Was a learning experience
Interesting. How so?
Fortunately no water heater in the shop.
@Coffey Custom Builds I piped the dust collector through the wall of the garage from outside. The gas water heater is not in an enclosure in the garage. Turning on the dust collector would blow out the pilot light as makeup air flowed backwards through the vent system. I'm in the process of moving my water heater out of the garage now. It gives me more shop space and I'm adding an air return to the dust collector closet.
@@InspiredCraftsman ..if it's got good filtrattion pipe it back in
I’ve a metal CNC that had most of the same “hidden” cost. Two not mentioned are 1) service calls. These aren’t small devices you can easily take in for service or repair. Service call for me is $1,000 just to show up due to a 4 hour round trip from the nearest service shop. 2) metrology instruments. These machines can be very accurate and repeatable. But you need tools that can measure to those accuracy to be able to dial them in and maintain the repeatability. Probably not as critical with wood, but something better than a (2) for $20 25’ Kobalt tape measure from Lowe’s is needed.
Solid mentions!
Wow good to know thanks I wonder what is the lowest Hidden cost machine out there is ? Thanks for sharing 👍👍👍
Thanks Mike, great setup. Mosaic is great software good luck with the cabinets👍👍
Thank you sir!
Tip I got from another makerspace was having a plastic brad nailer and plastic brad nails to nail down your workpiece to the MDF board. Works great, plastic brads don't damage your bits (if you accidentally go through them and you can just pop off your piece using a flexible metal paint scraper. Of course pneumatic nail gun, brads, air compressor (we have an ATC anyway) are an expense.
Had no clue a plastic brad nailer existed lol
Those are cool for sure.
Regarding the vacuum pump, I would put it outside as you suggested, but I would make sure you can redirect the hot air inside the area where you work in the winter months.
Greetings from Italy
Already done!
Great video. Very informative dude. Where were you six months ago? We just bought our first Shop Sabre CNC and got caught off guard on the Air Compressor/Dryer requirement. Also, loud noise is definitely a factor as it costs MORE money to buy low db rated equipment (quiet dust collection, low noise rotary screw compression, etc.) There's a strong temptation to go cheap on many items because of what you're stating. We also have an Epilog laser cutter but this is WAY different. Going full on CNC is much larger game.
Yeah you can do it cheaper but you should do it right the first time.
So, I have gone through the video.. AND IT MAKES A LOT OF SENSE TO ME. i AM NOT THERE YET. But hopefully soon..THANK YOU !
You'll get there
This is great information, thanks for sharing!
Yeah we tried to make this dense and concise.
Straight banger of an video. Your camera presence is great. Great job.
Thank you so much!
Nice summary Mike! Large CNCs have hidden costs, that's why I made a small one with automatic loading system. Enjoy!
That's cool!
@@CoffeyCustomBuilds Thank you!
While I have no ambition to run such a machine as a home hobbyist it’s still super interesting. Thanks
The hobbyist machines have a lot of costs for sure.
Good stuff. All these things are keeping me from a CNC. Power and dust collection are the biggest hurdles right now. The good thing is I have a large shop close to me that I can sub any cnc work I need.
That's a great situation to be in!
Between the surprise costs and gaps in knowledge, I don’t think most people know what they are getting into when they buy a CNC. Even a hobbiest level one.
Things can be bought and learned, but you are right that there are surprises on both fronts.
Thanks for the video.
I think many of the costs associated with my Swift are exactly the same as a hobbyist machine. Thanks for watching!
Every time I tell someone looking at a $4000 machine that they should plan to spend $11-$15000 MINIMUM someone comes along and says that's BS. It's not BS. If you don't already have a well-equipped shop and you want to run a hobby machine with a sticker price of $4000, expect to pay even more, I'd say over $20k. A CNC doesn't live in isolation.
The electrical work alone in my tiny-ass hobby shop is over $5000.
@@espressomatic I would say if someone is scrappy and can tolerate some QOL sacrifices, you can get by for a lot less than 11k if your machine build is 4k. It depends on what one is cutting. I probably had 4k into building my first machine between the kit and the steel to weld the frame and the control system. Add to that 400 for dust system, 150 for electrical between the panel and machine (thankfully it's literally 10 feet from the panel to the control box) and maybe 600 over the first year for an assortment of collets, initial tooling, etc. So all in maybe cost $5500 in the first year? With tax and shipping and gas to/from the hardware stores it might be at most 6k. (Now this was 5 years ago so inflation is what it is)
Since then I put maybe another 1000 into upgrades and replacement parts (including a new Gecko 540). Of course I also already had a well-enough equipped shop with a benchtop mill in it, so I didn't need to go buy any common power tools, metrology equipment, etc. But even so that would be maybe 3-500 to get the basics from Amazon or Shars or wherever else.
We're not talking the good professional level stuff here. Which I've got plenty of now running my VMC and the like. I'm talking strictly the hobbyist running maybe a cottage little side hustle who is on a tight budget and needs 'good enough'.
It goes up exponentially as the machines get more complex and 'higher end' with more QOL features. But certainly someone scrappy can do CNC on a budget.
If you haven't done it yet, consider putting the dust collector outside next to the vacuum pump and air compressor! My AC can barely keep up with the heat my dust collector puts out. I live in Minnesota, so I have mine vented inside...because I don't want to deal with heating make-up air in the winter!
Actually getting an exterior rated dust collector soon!
You walk the walk now you can talk about it. Thanks for sharing your experience
Thanks for watching
Great video! Congratulations on a business model and work ethic to make this profitable.
It's hard work for little money 🤣 but I love it
I knew about some of that stuff, but some of it really surprised me. Wow!
Yeah there are some unexpected costs for sure.
thanks, this is very good one, appreciate your efforts!
Thanks for watching
Awesome setup! Are you going to make your own gasket grids from now on? Integrate it with the spoilboard?
Probably not. These ones from All Star are cheap (relatively speaking) and work great.
I'm about to start with the onefinity and theres plenty enough extra costs for it too, definitely a pain but like you i'm confident I can make it work itself out. Can't see myself upgrading to a laguna anytime soon but nice to see what I should expect if I did.
There are many more costs besides the machine.
I ran a industrial size machine that cost $200k. Had many very expensive tool holders and tooling. That cost was around 100k. We needed 2 of each tool, so one could be away getting sharpened. Some of the were over $600 each. Tooling is very expensive. I used to replace collets every 1 - 2 years, as they wear. Trust me you don't want a 20mm solid carbide tool doing 15000 coming out. Destroys the work and ruins your day. Good video with a honest assessment of costs.
Yup! All of it is expensive. It's worth it if you have the business but if you don't it's a waste!
My son has a fairly large cabinet shop, 4000 sq. ft.
He works himself, plus he has 2 full time employees.
They also do the installations.
One of them spends the majority of his shop time sanding, both on the machines as well as the hand sanding.
His shop has 3 phase power, and quite a few of his present machines require 3 phase power.
He makes everything in house, including doors and drawers, and he does all the finishing in house.
He has a sliding table saw and a large Stribg rack saw which are used for all the plywood cutting.
He himself can do all the cutting for a large kitchen in less than a day.
But of coarse there is the shelf holes to drill on his line boring machine, and pocket screw holes to be bored also.
Aside from the cutting, and the hole boring, i see no big advantage of having a CNC in his case.
Unless of coarse it is utilized for other projects besides building basic cabinets.
His biggest issue is space, meaning what to do with cabinets after they are assembled yet not ready for delivery.
And the money spent on the type of CNC he would like would go a long way towards an addition to his shop.
Ideally, when the cabinets are assembled they would be removed from the present shop to a different area for finishing and final work such as installing the doors etc.
And from there be loaded for delivery.
Moving cabinets around is time consuming as well, and all of that at least should be considered when looking at ways to cut labor costs in my opinion.
Im curious as to how those of you who have opted to purchase a CNC deal with these type of issues?
Surely not everybody has a shop even as large as the one my son has.
Great breakdown.
I designed and built diy CNC while back and total cost was still 11K€. And that’s excluding my own work.
As I’m not making business with it (not yet at least) just wanted to take it easy. But every time you need to use someone else’s services it will cost you.
Yeah that's true
You provided good information and thingds for people to think about.
That's the goal. Give people information for their research
I have an Ingersoll Rand dryer too. My manual says to let it stay on for 15-20 before allowing air to flow through it to allow the refrigerant to cool down. Did yours say that too? And if so, do you listen to it? It kind of sucks when I want to quickly fill up the tank and make something to have to wait before even filling up the compressor.
It does and we do that here. We have a morning startup process and an evening shut down process.
You could have just stopped at "Look at my shop, My shop is amazing!" Money well spent. Your place looks fantastic and clean. Congrats on your success.!
🤣🤣
Nice video new sub. I spent a pretty penny for mine. Even if you want to just do hobby work / side job it's expensive. I run a Laguna IQ 24x36 travel, Jet dust collector 1.5 hp with aspire. Get ready to drop 15-20k to have fun with a small dependable setup. Just curious how often do you lube your linear guides/ballscrews and do you use white lithium spray or something else?
I'm looking at selling my Swift and getting a 2x4 IQ Pro as we speak. I need some floor space and the SUV does everything we need right now for sheet stock. Both my machines have built in lubrication. One is automatic the other is a manual lever. They use gear oil.
@@CoffeyCustomBuilds ahh that's nice .Those little Lagunas you can't beat em.
Thank You! I'm probably a few years out (waiting for retirement to go full time woodworking) and have ideas about the same as your first CNC. This was very helpful.
I hope this helped!
Wow, that's an eye opener~! And to think that I'm having trouble choosing between an X-Carve Pro & a OneFinity. Rookie blues, right? ;-) Thanks for the info...super informative~!
It's all relative for sure. Many of those costs are tied to hobbyist machines. Software. Dust collection. Tooling.
does the new one have a dedicated drill bank? I run two different CNCs at a custom cabinet shop and having the drill bank saves so much time over a jig or even a boring machine, but all those bits are a HUGE hidden cost.
This doesn't have that.
So true. I have the Avid 4x8" Pro. Had to get a 220 circuit installed, an Oneida Supercell Dust Collector, VCarve Pro, etc. All in All it was like $18k. Huge investment.
Are you happy with the Avid? Yeah my first machine was about $25k investment. Paid for itself in a few months.
@@CoffeyCustomBuilds yeah. I love it. For 13k its a great machine. Handles all my side gig work just fine. Don't think I'll upgrade ever unless I get a bigger space than my 2 car garage or quick my software eng job, which I probably won't.
This is the first time I have been to this site. . And 3 minutes in I am loving it Well see.
Thanks!
Hello and hope you are doing well. Do you by any chance have an affiliate link for the lateral clamps you are using?
amzn.to/3OxGTgH
There you go!
What are you going to do for makeup air when you put the vacuum pump outside? I have been looking into this because I want to AC my shop, but haven't found any decent solutions.
Just been running the mini split. Pumped the exhaust back into the shop for the winter and will pump it outside in the summer.
Sometimes it's easier to spend the money upfront. I bought a vintage 48x96 shopbot that was sold by a local high school. I spent 4500 on the machine and I've probably spent 2500 on all the extras you've mention. Just running 220v electrical from my box to the machine was 400 bucks. That when I did the electrical myself.
The machine is a 2004 so I had to refurbish most of the electrical and replace the control card.
it's been a good investment but eventually I will upgrade to a more capable machine with a ATC. but the shopbot paid for itself in January on its first job. its been a great machine to learn on, as I had little CNC machine experience. its been a great experience and I have learned a ton, if I was using the CNC full time, I would have just bout a 50-90k machine.
It's usually easier to spend it upfront as downtime crushes any savings.
Thanks. Interesting. So what was the total ballpark tally for the setup?
For the new machine?
You went and bought industrial grade setup to a small shop... well it's crazy, but also you made the calculations and you figured that it'll pay itself back and create more money.
CNC is at it's best doing repeat work. You can minimize and optimize all expenses when you do 10000 of something instead of one.
Single shot orders are expensive for this reason for the customer, but as Titans of CNC constantly tell you, the money is in 24/7 operation lights out and having single operator tending ten machines. And that customers buying 10.000 of something again and again are the ones who truly pay the bills.
Hope your risk will be worth taking. :)
It already paid for itself last month. Thanks for the concern though. This is my 4th CNC machine. I know what i'm doing. Have a great day!
What material are you using on top of your spoil board that has a 1" hole grid?
It's a gasket told by All Star CNC.
I have an older smartshop M that uses the handheld controller. Is it possible for you to do a quick video of the new controls on this machine. I just would like to know how to start a program, and how to jog and zero Z on the surface of the piece. Any help would be appreciated. Awesome video
It doesn't have a screen at all?
Great video MC. I was expecting the spreadsheet to make an appearance
🤣🤣 nah dog not my style
Hello, thax for the help, Can you tell me the name of the software? I can't find it
Vcarve Pro and Mozaik are my two main softwares.
Great video. I have watched a ton of videos leading up to buying a ShopSabre and have continued to while I am in the process of getting everything set up. You are absolutely correct about the bleeding of money when it comes to wiring, air, vacuum, ducting, etc. The bleeding actually started when I had to pay riggers to get the CNC off of the truck and into my shop...my tractor was way overmatched for a 4000 lb. machine. One quick note...with all the videos I have watched I will have to admit to not seeing a perforated spoil board before like the one you are running on your Laguna. How did you come across this idea? Thanks.
Yeah I had to rent a 6k reach lift! It's so much money.
Same here Larry...same here.
I have a shopsabre and just be aware that you will get totally screwed on any upgrades or god forbit the POS $250 computer you get breaks...they want 2k to replace it. I wanted to upgrade to a spindle from the router....they wanted $3400 for a 1.7kw spindle, wiring and VFD. I wanted to just buy the mount from them and upgrade myself but they will not sell you the mount. Still upgraded on my own for around $650 including 2.2Kw spindle, vfd, and wiring. They love you before the sale...but will pretty much have nothing to do with you after. Stuff will break.
My DIY machine is always profitable, and you will make many mistakes on parts and quotations. I stuck to 110 V wiring except for the spindle, no vacuum system. Low cost stepper motors. Machine shop and 3d printed parts. I cannot understand why people spend so much on these and then complain when they are not profitable. When cutting wood I use a brush to clean off. It almost costs nothing to operate. Low cost indexable carbide tooling. Cut aluminum plastic and wood all the time.
@togowack how many HP is your spindle and what speed can you run 3/8" compression bits at full depth in 3/4" material?
We watched your vid twice man. I noticed you're using Ingersoll Rand for your compressor and dryer system. What model and what's the thought process? We're within days of choosing Quincy QGS-5 combo. I searched your channel and didn't see anything related to this topic. Recommendations?
I'm not familiar with that machine so I don't have a comparison. But I will say I am very happy with my Ingersoll Rand set up.
I like the tool organization, very slick
Thanks!
#question usually there are two ways of growing up: a) going into better tools b) going into more tools. Did you made calculations, maybe it will be more profitable to double amount of working CNC machines instead going into pricey ones ?
I don't have the volume to have 3 full sized machines. I also don't have the space.
Thank you for showing what Hobby CNC owners run away from...I don't want to spend less for a machine that cannot cut it.
It’s incredible how much cncs scale. It goes so much bigger than you realize when you’re starting
Great info. Thanks. Not too many shops could afford that much up front costs but it sounds like your business justifies the investment. Good luck.
Yeah it's not really about my set up. It's more about these things having more costs than the intial tool price and giving people a resource to get that knowledge and learn from my experience.
I am designing a small (~300mm x 400mm) CNC to cut custom soapstone insulators for my business , sealing everything up with bellows and other devices will make the machine bigger and more expensive and the dust from soapstone is talc. I just don't know if I need to seal it all up or not , any advice ?
Seal it up
Seal the edges of the MDF for maximum vacuum force on piece.
We just edge band it with the Contouro.
Damn, the new CNC is a huge upgrade. 3 phase is a whole nother level. I'm just doing this as a side business though, so probably will stay at this level.
Yeah the buy needs to make sense for sure.
I definitely got confused on the "MDF" gasket stack bed. Guess I'll have to follow that up better. I used to program CNC with a tape machine - Cutting and Splicing that bad boy. That shop ran a lot of material and then the owner sold it and they packed it up and shipped it to Japan. A customer bought it.
The vacuum passes through the mdf and basically evenly distributes the suction.
Just a thought. When you build your shed, make it big enough for new dust collection. Better outside for noise and disposal of Saw dust?
I have an exterior rated dust collector coming
I can only imagine the hidden costs. I thought wooohooo $400 expensive router. Than I saw the bits I required, that was 300 dollars, vacuum cost another 200 dollars. That is just for a simple router. I got tracks for it, I got the plate for it to run on tracks. The cost is significant. I am building a sbr rail slab flattening, that is about a 1,000 dollars in total.
As soon as you add a computerised system, one can imagine how the cost increases significantly.
Yeah the money adds up quick
I mainly plan on using one for cribbage boards, routing letters for a project, a few signs to engrave things into, so i don't need anything expensive. Id like to match the price of my laser cutter, $1,200. Any suggestions?
I don't know of any at that price point but I'd look at the Onefinity machines. They seem solid.
@CoffeyCustomBuilds thanks for the tip, I know shark sd has a few around that but then they jump up in price
What is the model of your original Laguna?
It's a Laguna Swift 4x8
I gotta say, I’m in the Aerospace industry so when I read CNC’s I thought of Mills and Lathes to make aerospace or parts for the gov. This is a wood CNC, the costs are much lower for those. It’s why I watched the video.
I will say tho, you’re coming across as if every extra expense is a complaint. Maybe if you’re new you won’t know about some of the additional costs you mentioned? But as a business owner you do your research and most of the hidden cost come to light and are more a common sense rather than a surprise. Either way it’s an informative video, thanks for sharing.
I didn't make this video for me. I made it for people who don't know the costs....
Put the Rotary Phase Converters outside in the dog house you are building for the other two items. My RPC is outside my shed in a side outdoor working area. Also have a fan going another hidden cost
The VFD's are in the processor cabinets. No phase converters here. But I will when I get my wide belt
If you move your air compressor to an outdoor shed or whatever your gonna build your going to induce moisture into the system by running the air from a hot space to a cool space even though you have a dryer there's just so much moisture it can remove.
I have 3 water filters and yeah they can only remove 99.9% so I'll roll with it.
Definitely need to weigh the value you get out of set up like that and the big upfront investment. Value not only in dollars, but time, capabilities, new creative opportunities, etc. Good thing you had space right where you needed it to build a shed for the compressor and vacuum pump! And don’t forget to add in that nice tool chest to store all the bits and other assorted stuff for all that equipment. Looking forward to seeing this new monster machine in action!
It's a lot to consider!
My colleagues mostly use an outdated version of vCarve, but you can do so much more with Fusion 360 for CAM / CAD, and most of the features are free.
I use Shapr3d. However, Fusion is not free. It hasn't been free for a couple years.
@@CoffeyCustomBuilds I'm not sure what you mean, for personal use and startups it's free. There are some annoying restrictions, like the number of active projects you're allowed to keep, but you still get the essentials.
@@Morawake I have literally hundreds and thousand of projects and files. The hobbyist level just not an option for me. But it definitely does not do more than Vcarve does.
Man, I love your dadgum channel!
Thanks so much!
If you move the compressor outside, plumb the air intake to take air from the air-conditioned shop. If you don't, plan to get a much bigger air dryer. You will also need to drain the tank much more often.
We drain the tank twice a week and the air dryer is handling it great. I'm in California. Low humidity.
Max horsepower for a single phase 240V dwelling is normally about 10HP. High and the power company inspects brownout and dimming light complaints from neighbors.
Are you really running the spindle, vacuum, and compressor at 26HP? (12+9+5?) How much were the VFDs for the machines?
Those are not on the same circuits 🤣🤣 that would be insane. The compressor is 5hp and definitely doesn't need a VFD. The vacuum pump is 10hp and has an integrated vfd in the processor cabinet as does the spindle. Those were part of the purchase of the machine.
I'm speaking about single phase 240V service coming into the shop. Do you mean you have more than one service coming into your shop? How many amps is your service(s)?
Any thoughts on the question?
Heh my carpentry brother. Saw your channel, Been making saw dust for 40years. After watching your video an the costs I guess I won’t retire my worm drive yet. Just as funny confluence; my name is also Coffee, no y. Proud of the fact I still have ten digits…lol
That's awesome! Thanks for watching!
how long have you been in business how much labor are you saving for not making everything by hand
5 years. Saving a lot of labor. But more importantly exact repeatability. I have 5 lines of furniture that we fabricate. 2 for my company and 3 for national retailers.
You talked me into it!.Where do I sign up?!
On the website
Have you 230v single phase electric supply?
I do.
I maintain CNC Maxine tool at a major manufacturer. In our plant we have over 60 CNC machine tools. These machines machine to tolerances of 5 microns. The machine cost about $300,000 each. But the tooling for each machine is about the same cost. We have 6 full time persons maintaining these machines at a cost of about one fifth of the outside repair companies. And in about one tenth of down time. CNC isn’t cheap, but the overall costs much outweigh manual work. With much less scrap parts
Absolutely worth the money!
Watched this to make sure I wasn't missing anything in my estimate, but already got all of that figured. Must be doing good, those aren't hidden costs for me lol
Boom! Glad you're covered!
You are getting into cabinet building now. My customers are half gone. There is another cabinet Shop in the next town just went bankrupt and left all their machinery sitting behind
for the landlord. At short auction sold the 4x8 Onsrud CNC went for $700. "Hundred" . I wish you luck.
Cabinetry is a very small portion of my revenue. We use the CNC for MANY things. Cabinetry is only like $70,000 in revenue yearly. However, this machine has already paid for itself. I am fortunate that California has a strong economy and people with money who like custom furniture, which is my main source of income. I have a very wide ranging and diverse portfolio. But sorry your customers are leaving! Appreciate the concern!
OMG. Mahalo for sharing! 🙂🙏
Glad it helped!
Great Video! Thanks!!!
Thank you!
that new rig looks sweet. I though my onefinity cnc had a bunch of hidden costs.
The costs add up
#suggestion Btw did you considered adding new 3phase electric line ? In our country it is costly but maybe it make sense for a long run. Also you would not need these power conversion tools. And thus will have more space
The local government won't let me get 3 phase. Its incredibly disappointing
Excellent video thanks. It does raise a couple of questions though. The first three items (electricity, dust collection, tooling) are not specific to CNC. If you are going to make the same product without CNC machinery, the cost for these items will still be similar, and your time costs probably higher. Some of the other items would also be needed in some form. (Non-CNC machinery, work holding, work benches etc.)
I think you are too smart to be caught out by 'Surprises', i.e. things you did not realise you would need. I would wager that you did extensive cost/benefit analysis, rather than buying on a whim.
If I sound 'Nit-Picky', forgive me, I really enjoyed your presentation, and the insight it gives into decisions you are faced with. 👍
The electricity is specific. This machine requires a dedicated 80 amp service that is for this machine only. Any other CNC will need a dedicated line. The dust collection doesn't need to be dedicated but it is best to imo. The tooling is definitely specific to this machine as CNC bits don't work on other machines. I do have multiple CNC's so I can use my tools across the machines but my smaller machines can't run the larger bits my big one does. Labor is my biggest expense. Payroll is by far the most expensive investment I make every month. Making things faster is the name of the game.
None of these were surprises for me. This video was made purely for others looking to dive into the CNC world. It was definitely not a rant about how surprised I was by the costs as some have interpreted it to be. I did all my research and knew all of my costs going into it.
Not nit picky. Solid talking points and I appreciate the observations!
All good points.
The other hidden cost that everyone should be aware of, but often forget, is the shipping. The sticker price is one thing but for some of this equipment it is coming by truck (maybe with riggers) or you're paying fuel prices to go pick it up or you're paying shipping in some other way. That's a cost that adds up very quick for some of this stuff, especially at the outset, and is something to remember to factor into the budget. And in a lot of cases a lack of planning ahead costs a lot in the shipping, as McMaster or whomever is charging a minimum rate of 7 or 10 bucks even if you're just getting a single small part; so buying reactively vs proactively will have very real costs.
One hidden cost that came up early on in my experience with a CNC router was needing to make storage racks and carts for holding large sheets of material. I'd never really needed to have a way to store multiple sheets of 4x8 so I had to spend some time and money on building a large roll-around cart that could hold sheets of MDF, Plywood, Aluminum, etc. And now I've got that plus a fixed rack that can handle piles more material. It's one thing if you only ever buy one or two sheets at a time from a local vendor. But for some projects I was sitting on 30 sheets of material shipped via freight that couldn't be left in the middle of the shop floor, that had to be kept safe, dry, and unbent. So leaning it up against the wall or in a pile on the floor wasn't suitable. Plus being able to roll the cart right up to the machine so that two people can lift the sheet right up and over is extremely useful.
Third big hidden cost besides tooling is the metrology equipment. IF you're running any sort of equipment like a CNC, even a benchtop one, you're going to need some calipers, dial test indicators, some squares, precision level, and other metrology/measuring tools that will ensure you are cutting what you think you are cutting. Sure the CAD might say it's a 1.000" hole, your CAM might agree to cut a 1.000" hole using a 1/4" endmill, and the machine may interpret the commands and cut what it says is a 1.000" hole. But without calipers to tell you that the result is a 0.997 hole, or gauge pins, or a bore gauge and micrometer, or other precision measuring tools; you won't know how much compensation to incorporate to make it a 1.000" hole. Even if you're doing jobs where the nominal tolerances can be in the 1/16" range (or say 1-2mm) you still will want to be, and can be, much more precise especially on mating features like joints, slots, holes, etc. All of that takes precision tools to level the machine, calibrate the machine, check for tooling runout, etc. Not to say anything of checking for tram.
Another cost, esp if you're a business, that somewhat came up in the video but wasn't pointed out explicitly: is just the TIME. It costs time to install and level the machine, run air, run power, run vac, run dust, troubleshoot the setup, calibrate and ajust parameters, learn the software, learn speeds and feeds, do the research and order parts, experiment with workholding, etc. If you're a business and are taking time away from otherwise working on existing stuff you're basically expending productive time on this effort to get a machine that ends up in a profitable state. It can be man-weeks of invested time at a minimum to get one machine setup and run like we see in this video. So you have to budget what your time costs or what your opportunity costs are, and decide if some of that can be outsourced to either the company you buy the machine from, or someone local, or an intern, or a friend that you can do some favors for down the road, or whatever else.
- A case in point is I built my own hobby-grade CNC almost 10 years ago to make a prototype airplane with, and it took about 4 months back then to go from having ordered parts to having something that I could use to cut parts. But later when I bought a factory-made machine, it was still a few weeks of learning and other setup work to get everything brought to production-ready status. Some shops that are used to it can bring a brand new machine online within 2-3 days of hitting the floor, but they are usually already running similar machines and have experienced people and a gameplan, and are paying for speed. When you're figuring it out as you go it always takes more time than you think.
- Another example is a guy in our industrial park bought a reputable, brand new CNC plasma table a year ago but due to other work he has going on and his general lack of experience with CNC and computers and such, it's going to have taken him almost full year to get things setup on his end with a good computer and laptop and software and everything dialed in, to where he can start actually using it. Now again that's mostly because he has other stuff going on and isn't relying on it for money, but, because there were some things to figure out those small delays add up for someone with a lot on their plate who can't afford to take a week or two of focused energy on it. But it does mean they've paid a lot of money to have something taking up space for a year in their shop.
Some other misc hidden costs are: cleaning supplies, ways to dispose of huge bagfulls of dust/chips, lubricants and grease/oils for the machine as required, coolant if using any kind of misting system for cutting aluminum, reinforced flooring if a bigger machine, floor mats for walking around/standing by the machine for long sessions, storage for all of those tools (a new toolbox is a few hundred bucks minimum), a computer and desk and monitor and chair and so-on for your CAD/CAM machine if it isn't going to be an existing workstation.
So many things to consider.
Very good video!
Thank you