Thank you for the video. I have a question : when you said at 3:48 " notice that 2 consecutive steps in the same direction will always outline the interval of a 3rd from downbeat to downbeat" you meant a melodic third D to C to B (answer 1), or the harmonic interval of the next downbeat (G B which is a 3rd) ? In case of answer 1, can't we play D to C (over D in the bass) back to D (F in the bass) because it forms a 6th ? In case of answer 2, can't we use D to C (over D in the bass) to B (over something besides G in the bass) ? Thank you in advance.
The two consecutive steps must be in the same direction, so the answer is answer 1, but we can't move back to D because that would be a change of melodic direction.
I have a doubt regarding disguised intervals. I understand the upbeat can be used to "fix" parallel movement into a perfect consonance, however, I was wondering what would happen if I had, for example, a third (say F and A) that moved into a fifth (say E and B) but the note in the upbeat created parallel motion (so if A went to C and then to B). In that case does it still count as parallel motion into a perfect consonance? Or is the upbeat note still weak enough to not interfere with the otherwise contrary motion between the downbeats?
Yes that would be parallel motion. I should have mentioned that all the rules about motion between downbeats are on top of the normal rules from one beat to the next.
I'm reading the fux's book too. but in his book he explains succession of octaves or fifth can be justified with leaps of more than forth interval on the weak beat but you limited it in direct motion to perfect interval. why fux applied it in consecutive perfect intervals too?
It's hard for me to say exactly. The only example Fux gives is an alternation of downbeat octaves and upbeat fifths. It might be the case (and I am speculating) that he considered the fifths to be a strong enough consonance on the upbeat to "loosen the grip" of the downbeat octaves so that the parallel motion between consecutive downbeats is not so audible. I agree with Simon Sechter (among others) that in two-voice writing this kind of thing is unnecessary.
Great question, which I did not address in the video. In minor (Aeolian) you're right that you need to raise scale degree 6 in order not to approach the leading tone by an augmented step, and in order to avoid forming a diminished fifth against the bass. We don't want to leap to a chromatic note though, so it is best to approach the C-sharp by step from B on the upbeat of the previous measure (like Fux's Dorian example).
Are we allowed to use the perfect and imperfect concords in the first measure or the first measure should be just a perfect concord beside the two beats rest note !!?
This series is based on Fux's Gradus ad Parnassum, and he requires that we start with one of the perfect consonances (unison, fifth, or octave when composing above the CF, unison or octave when composing below).
Yes that is definitely possible, but I think we learn the material better if we don't think of it that way. A good "shape" for a first species line is not necessarily a good skeleton for a second species line, and vice versa. For instance: | G C | B A | G 5 8 6 5 3 | C | D | E would make a fluent second species line, but: | G | B | G 5 6 3 | C | D | E strikes me as kind of ugly in first species.
I don't see any example of that, but you can repeat note? Cantus firmus on the lower voice, Let's say i have a 6th in the downbeat (D B) the upbeat goes to A and the downbeat of the next measure is (C A). That mean i repeat the A. That should be correct? And thank you for your videos!
Great question. We typically avoid note repetitions in second species, for reasons that I get into in another video on this channel ("How to Compose 2:1 Counterpoint"). The main reason is not because there is anything wrong with the voice leading, but because such an example would belong to another species (the repeated As in your example would form a consonant suspension from fourth species). I recommend you watch the other videos I made, they are better quality and cover material beyond Fux's Gradus.
For minor C.F.s, do you only raise the leading tone in the final cadence (5-6-8)? I ask as in First Species you briefly mentioned cross-relations, but in the example given in Gradus ad Parnassum, he uses the natural seventh. Is it the composers choice to change this, or are there specific rules about when to raise a leading tone?
The leading tone is always used at the cadence, but it is optional elsewhere in the exercise. I don't believe Fux uses it that often during the middle of an exercise, but later authors writing in a tonal style do (Albrechtsberger and Cherubini, etc.).
Is it okay to drop the Cantus Firmus down an octave? I want to write second species using the Albrechtsberger C.F. but want to write above the C.F., and I would like a more average range for the counterpoint, but I am unsure as to whether I should just write above the stave for the counterpoint and keep the C.F. the same?
This series on spieces counterpoint is by far the Best on youtube. Thank You!
Glad you enjoy it!
Very very very very good!
Thank you very much!
Thank you for the video. I have a question : when you said at 3:48 " notice that 2 consecutive steps in the same direction will always outline the interval of a 3rd from downbeat to downbeat" you meant a melodic third D to C to B (answer 1), or the harmonic interval of the next downbeat (G B which is a 3rd) ? In case of answer 1, can't we play D to C (over D in the bass) back to D (F in the bass) because it forms a 6th ? In case of answer 2, can't we use D to C (over D in the bass) to B (over something besides G in the bass) ? Thank you in advance.
The two consecutive steps must be in the same direction, so the answer is answer 1, but we can't move back to D because that would be a change of melodic direction.
@@JacobGran Thank you for your answer, very clear. I wish your channel keep growing.
Great! So well explained. Thank you, sir!
Thank you for the clear and easy to follow explanation. Im learning alot i didnt realize how much I could relate this to bebop guitar lines lol
Thanks, this is alot of valuable information.
can someone please explain why the passing tone at 5:38 is acceptable if he didn’t use stepwise motion?
Crazy guy, u are saving my life with this videos! Thank you very very much
I have a doubt regarding disguised intervals. I understand the upbeat can be used to "fix" parallel movement into a perfect consonance, however, I was wondering what would happen if I had, for example, a third (say F and A) that moved into a fifth (say E and B) but the note in the upbeat created parallel motion (so if A went to C and then to B). In that case does it still count as parallel motion into a perfect consonance? Or is the upbeat note still weak enough to not interfere with the otherwise contrary motion between the downbeats?
Yes that would be parallel motion. I should have mentioned that all the rules about motion between downbeats are on top of the normal rules from one beat to the next.
That Albrechtsberger CF is incredible! I think it also my favorite CF now.
Dr. Gran, thank you for the video. Could you please make a video about how to make a melody?
Thank you so much ... i am learning so much ❤❤
I'm reading the fux's book too. but in his book he explains succession of octaves or fifth can be justified with leaps of more than forth interval on the weak beat but you limited it in direct motion to perfect interval. why fux applied it in consecutive perfect intervals too?
It's hard for me to say exactly. The only example Fux gives is an alternation of downbeat octaves and upbeat fifths. It might be the case (and I am speculating) that he considered the fifths to be a strong enough consonance on the upbeat to "loosen the grip" of the downbeat octaves so that the parallel motion between consecutive downbeats is not so audible. I agree with Simon Sechter (among others) that in two-voice writing this kind of thing is unnecessary.
I'm trying to do a 568 cadence over the Martin CF. But how do I make the F# leading tone into a 568? do I raise the tritone to be C# or just leave it?
Great question, which I did not address in the video. In minor (Aeolian) you're right that you need to raise scale degree 6 in order not to approach the leading tone by an augmented step, and in order to avoid forming a diminished fifth against the bass. We don't want to leap to a chromatic note though, so it is best to approach the C-sharp by step from B on the upbeat of the previous measure (like Fux's Dorian example).
@@JacobGran Ah, yes that sounds much better, Thank you very much.
question
is parallel perfect consonaces allowed frrom weak beat to strong beat
Good question. The short answer is no :)
Are we allowed to use the perfect and imperfect concords in the first measure or the first measure should be just a perfect concord beside the two beats rest note !!?
This series is based on Fux's Gradus ad Parnassum, and he requires that we start with one of the perfect consonances (unison, fifth, or octave when composing above the CF, unison or octave when composing below).
Is it ok to "work in" a second species from a previous first species?
Asking for a friend...
Yes that is definitely possible, but I think we learn the material better if we don't think of it that way. A good "shape" for a first species line is not necessarily a good skeleton for a second species line, and vice versa. For instance:
| G C | B A | G
5 8 6 5 3
| C | D | E
would make a fluent second species line, but:
| G | B | G
5 6 3
| C | D | E
strikes me as kind of ugly in first species.
Thank you!
I don't see any example of that, but you can repeat note?
Cantus firmus on the lower voice, Let's say i have a 6th in the downbeat (D B) the upbeat goes to A and the downbeat of the next measure is (C A).
That mean i repeat the A.
That should be correct?
And thank you for your videos!
Great question. We typically avoid note repetitions in second species, for reasons that I get into in another video on this channel ("How to Compose 2:1 Counterpoint"). The main reason is not because there is anything wrong with the voice leading, but because such an example would belong to another species (the repeated As in your example would form a consonant suspension from fourth species).
I recommend you watch the other videos I made, they are better quality and cover material beyond Fux's Gradus.
@@JacobGran Thank you !
Thank you so much
Glad you like it!
For minor C.F.s, do you only raise the leading tone in the final cadence (5-6-8)? I ask as in First Species you briefly mentioned cross-relations, but in the example given in Gradus ad Parnassum, he uses the natural seventh. Is it the composers choice to change this, or are there specific rules about when to raise a leading tone?
The leading tone is always used at the cadence, but it is optional elsewhere in the exercise. I don't believe Fux uses it that often during the middle of an exercise, but later authors writing in a tonal style do (Albrechtsberger and Cherubini, etc.).
Is it okay to drop the Cantus Firmus down an octave? I want to write second species using the Albrechtsberger C.F. but want to write above the C.F., and I would like a more average range for the counterpoint, but I am unsure as to whether I should just write above the stave for the counterpoint and keep the C.F. the same?
Oh yes, shifting into a different register and even transposing into different keys are done pretty often.